Logs on 2022-08-09 (liberachat/#haskell)

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03:40:43	<Inst>	erm
03:40:44	<Inst>	question
03:40:47	<Inst>	is it dumb to attempt to use
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03:42:30	<Inst>	criterion to benchmark a function that normally takes 30-90 minutes to run?
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04:24:00	<Axman6>	it can be made to work but it would be unusual - you'd need to configure timeouts and how many iterations you'd want to run.
04:24:17	<Axman6>	generally there would be better way to do that like logging the start and end times during actual use
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05:22:50	<Inst>	axman6
05:22:56	<Inst>	i just redid it with just getSystemTime
05:22:59	<Inst>	and Data.Time
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05:31:54	<Inst>	btw re Monochrome, have you seen the Chinese Haskell QQ group? I'm on the Wechat, which is about 1/3rd the QQ's size. The QQ is 1k people, ffs.
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07:50:23	<carbolymer_>	this looks like a valid NFData instance, right? https://bpa.st/BYRQ
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08:12:08	<Axman6>	why use foldr'? I don't even know where that comes from, but it seems like a recipe for stack overflows
08:12:18	<Axman6>	% :t foldr deepseq
08:12:18	<yahb2>	<interactive>:1:7: error: ; Variable not in scope: deepseq :: a -> b -> b
08:12:35	<tomsmeding>	looking at 'assocs' here, it seems one of the two maps is not evaluated https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ordered-containers-0.2.2/docs/src/Data.Map.Ordered.Internal.html#assocs
08:12:43	<tomsmeding>	but not sure if that is an issue -- presumably they are filled in lockstep
08:12:45	<Axman6>	% :t foldr (seq :: a -> () -> ())
08:12:45	<yahb2>	foldr (seq :: a -> () -> ()) ; :: forall {t :: * -> *} {a}. Foldable t => () -> t a -> ()
08:12:59	<tomsmeding>	but yeah, foldr should be sufficient
08:13:03	<Axman6>	% :t foldl (flip (seq :: a -> () -> ()))
08:13:03	<yahb2>	foldl (flip (seq :: a -> () -> ())) ; :: forall {t :: * -> *} {a}. Foldable t => () -> t a -> ()
08:13:12	<tomsmeding>	or foldl'
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08:16:49	<Axman6>	I think either foldr or foldl' would be fine here, but not foldr', because presumably that needs to traverse the whole list before each pair is passed to deepseq
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08:17:55	<jese>	I have a lambda L to which I want to pass a Vector of Ts (T = an arbitrary type), but the compiler errors out that L accepts a Vector of ConstructorTs. Doing (v :: Vector ConstructorT) does not help. So how to properly do this?
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08:24:40	<ski>	jese : some more context might help
08:26:23	<Axman6>	yeah definitely need to see more code to answer that one
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08:33:50	<carbolymer>	Axman6: wait, why foldr' needs to traverse whole list before processing? doesn't that mean:
08:33:50	<carbolymer>	foldr f z [x1, x2, ..., xn] == x1 `f` (x2 `f` ... (xn `f` z)...)
08:33:50	<carbolymer>	that it should start evaluating from first element?
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08:40:36	<zzz>	carbolymer: what would you expect from foldr (+) 0 [1..] ?
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08:45:25	<tomsmeding>	carbolymer: what's the definition of foldr'
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08:55:00	<cheater>	on a lot of websites, there's often stuff that's kind of annoying. let's say on a movie website you have it sorting according to date ascending instead of descending (annoying because you want to see the latest movies). in gmail, sometimes mailing lists have super long tag names (the [Stuff] that's at the beginning of every email's subject line). I can fix all that using user scripts, using the violent monkey plugin for firefox. it injects javascript
08:55:00	<cheater>	into sites i want and the js can change all that stuff automatically, shorten strings or modify them, etc. is a system like that is possible in an application written with haskell? how would that even work?
08:55:23	<carbolymer>	zzz: I'm trying to understand the docs - isn't the expression evaluated from the outer layer first?
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08:56:15	<carbolymer>	tomsmeding: foldl and seq
08:56:50	<tomsmeding>	carbolymer: foldr' is implemented in terms of foldl and seq? Why isn't it called foldl' then?
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08:57:56	<tomsmeding>	carbolymer: for foldr, that is indeed how it would work: evaluate from the outer layer first
08:58:04	<tomsmeding>	hence foldr deepseq is precisely what you want I think :p
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08:58:20	<tomsmeding>	whether foldr' also does what you want depends on its precise definition
08:58:27	<carbolymer>	hmm
08:58:29	<carbolymer>	thanks
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08:59:20	<carbolymer>	I guess I should pay more attention to haddocks
09:00:11	<carbolymer>	cheater: you want interop js <-> haskell?
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09:00:52	<cheater>	no. i want users to be able to modify the behavior of applications, using some, any, technology, without changing the source of the original application, and hopefully without recompiling
09:00:56	<jese>	nvm i solved it
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09:01:09	<cheater>	that's what user scripts do for users
09:01:21	<tomsmeding>	cheater: I feel like that only works in a web context because of the DOM model
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09:01:49	<cheater>	doesn't something like Qt have a dom-like model too?
09:02:22	<tomsmeding>	not familiar enough with Qt for that, but in any case that's not haskell :p
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09:03:36	<cheater>	it's not just the dom model though. actions on websites correspond to restful urls, and i can change those. so for example, sorting the list of movies in my previous example, that's done by navigating to a url that in original form has &sort=date&dir=asc. but if i can modify that anchor link's url before the user can click on it, then i can make it dir=desc
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09:04:49	<tomsmeding>	what that I guess boils down to, is that the web page gets much of its information from an external systen (the server) that it talks to with a fairly introspectable protocol (i.e. URLs and http requests)
09:04:52	<cheater>	i can also gather data from websites and present it in a form that i can use in other programs
09:05:12	<tomsmeding>	if you have a single-page web app that downloads the data and then doesn't communicate with the server anymore (those exist), then your url trick wouldn't work
09:05:23	<tomsmeding>	and those are closer to how native applications tend to work
09:05:32	<cheater>	i don't (yet) know of a way to modify http requests and responses using user scripts or add-ons. but that would be even more powerful
09:06:07	<cheater>	i don't know, bear in mind that javascript and html are interpreted languages. i can always change what's going on, modify the data that's in memory, etc
09:06:28	<tomsmeding>	html ~ dom model; js being interpreted doesn't really make much of a difference here
09:06:30	<cheater>	so even on a single page web app, i can change what's going on
09:06:58	<tomsmeding>	unless you're modifying global variables in your user scripts, but that's uncommon, if only because "modern" js stacks tend to not expose any page-global variables
09:07:17	<cheater>	no, but they don't need to be page-global to be accessible using some sort of hack
09:07:22	<jackdk>	People used to do that by poking into the memory of other programs (search term: "game trainer") and like ReadProcessMemory/WriteProcessMemory in win32 api
09:07:37	<cheater>	jackdk: yeah that's true, game trainers are a good example
09:07:44	<cheater>	but that's like, way too low level imo
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09:08:00	<cheater>	they'll also do that by dll preloading
09:08:04	<tomsmeding>	cheater: I think js modules do something like (function(){ var local = {...}; ... })(); and you can't reasonably access that 'local' from outside
09:08:06	<cheater>	so they can catch api calls
09:08:27	<cheater>	i wish haskell had a system like dll preloading. is that something that's doable?
09:08:43	<cheater>	tomsmeding: you can access it from dev tools though, can you?
09:08:46	<tomsmeding>	dll preloading in native applications is roughly comparable to modifying window.alert in JS I guess
09:08:51	<cheater>	can't*
09:08:57	<cheater>	yeah
09:09:01	<cheater>	well it's more
09:09:05	<tomsmeding>	in the debugger you mean?
09:09:07	<cheater>	yes
09:09:11	<tomsmeding>	maybe, but that's not from a user script :p
09:09:22	<cheater>	dll preloading is more like being able to modify xhr
09:09:22	<tomsmeding>	if you gdb a C program you can also change its variables :p
09:09:33	<tomsmeding>	people don't generally call that "scripting the C program"
09:09:37	<cheater>	yeah
09:09:41	<tomsmeding>	I guess yes
09:10:12	<tomsmeding>	you can also gdb a haskell program and do the same thing, it's just that the haskell heap structures and control flow are much less understandable from a simple C-oriented debugger
09:10:17	<tomsmeding>	"much less" being an understatement
09:10:33	<cheater>	yeah, haskell needs to get its own debugger honestly
09:10:43	<cheater>	not having one is kind of carp
09:10:43	<tomsmeding>	it's hard though
09:10:49	<cheater>	it certainly is
09:10:54	<tomsmeding>	if you want to pay someone to work on it :p
09:11:16	<tomsmeding>	I agree though, a good debugger for haskell that understands its control flow and memory model would be amazing
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09:11:46	<cheater>	to be honest we just need a basic piece of shit project, once that out, people will flock to make it better
09:11:52	<tomsmeding>	it would be ghc-specific though, whereas C-oriented debuggers tend to work for C, C++, D, Rust, and maybe more low-level languages
09:11:53	<cheater>	*is
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09:24:43	<[exa]>	cheater: many people use haskell in order to be able to forget about the whole debugger business. :D
09:24:59	<cheater>	i don't think that's true
09:25:22	<cheater>	going from debuggers to print debugging is not an improvement
09:25:33	<[exa]>	no, simply do not debug
09:25:43	<tomsmeding>	[exa]: I mean, yes; like, haskell without a debugger is sometimes easier to debug than C with a debugger
09:25:44	<kuribas>	tomsmeding: I am missing a debugger that let's me choose how to evaluate the expression tree.
09:25:53	<tomsmeding>	but that doesn't mean that having a good debugger cannot make things even easier
09:25:58	<kuribas>	tomsmeding: the debugger in ghci simply seems to assume you want to step through.
09:25:59	<tomsmeding>	kuribas: _yes_
09:26:22	<tomsmeding>	I think choosing in what order to evaluate an expression tree is impossible after you've gone to Core
09:26:35	<tomsmeding>	because that probably already encodes some decisions w.r.t. order of evaluation
09:26:40	<tomsmeding>	and if not Core, then STG or Cmm
09:26:49	<kuribas>	tomsmeding: can you bypass core?
09:26:58	<kuribas>	core is not strictly haskell.
09:27:02	<tomsmeding>	I'm not sure at what point ghci bytecode is generated
09:27:02	<[exa]>	cheater: there's 30+ years of research invested into being able to write the programs visibly correct without trying them, utilizing parametricity, types, correct modularization and composition, enforced locality, etc etc. And it pretty much works for me :]
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09:27:29	<tomsmeding>	ghci bytecode is certainly after Core, but perhaps before STG
09:27:30	<kuribas>	[exa]: yeah, plus occasionally Debug.Trace
09:27:59	<tomsmeding>	kuribas: I'm most concerned about strictness analysis and the ensuing compilation of certain functions as call-by-value
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09:28:15	<tomsmeding>	concerned as in, that will prevent choosing order of evaluation later on
09:28:20	<tomsmeding>	kuribas: have you ever looked at ghc-vis
09:28:38	<tomsmeding>	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4lnCG18TaY
09:28:40	<kuribas>	no
09:28:58	<tomsmeding>	it's not quite what you're asking about, but you can interactively force heap thunks with it
09:29:09	<cheater>	kuribas: that's just print debugging.
09:29:16	<kuribas>	cheater: indeed!
09:29:57	<[exa]>	cheater: gdb also just prints internal values, right?
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09:30:49	<[exa]>	wow ghc-vis is cool
09:30:55	<tomsmeding>	yes ghc-vis is very cool
09:31:13	<tomsmeding>	I've yet to use it on non-trivial examples though
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10:42:41	<mastarija>	Is there something like "multiConst" that can take a constant value `v` and a function with n arguments e.g. `a -> b -> c -> ... -> v` and return a function of type `a -> b -> c -> ... -> v` that always return the initial value `v` no matter what the other arguments are?
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10:43:57	<tomsmeding>	mastarija: what if `a` is a function type? When would the list of arguments to ignore stop then?
10:44:38	<mastarija>	at the return value?
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10:45:14	<tomsmeding>	if I write `multiConst id 1 2 3`, what would be the type of that expression
10:45:59	<mastarija>	1 is not of type (a -> a)
10:46:04	<mastarija>	It wouldn't type check
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10:46:37	<tomsmeding>	oh wait I misread
10:47:01	<mastarija>	basically, if you give me `id :: a -> a`, then I'd have to get `x -> y -> ... -> (a -> a )`
10:47:02	<tomsmeding>	if I understand correctly, this "function with n arguments e.g. `a -> b -> c -> ... -> v` would be completely unused except for its type, right?
10:47:05	<mastarija>	as the second argument
10:47:11	<mastarija>	yes
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10:47:27	<tomsmeding>	I think you can do this with overlapping instances, but it's a bit gross
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10:47:39	<mastarija>	Yes...
10:47:44	<mastarija>	Something like printf
10:47:56	<ski>	"arity" is not a well-defined concept in Haskell, unless you take it to be 1 always
10:48:03	<mastarija>	But I was hoping we have it already
10:48:10	<tomsmeding>	the thing is that you want to "add another function arrow" to the type of multiConst only if the n'th return type of the function is not equal to `a`
10:48:20	<mastarija>	yes
10:48:33	<tomsmeding>	or, hmmm
10:48:43	<mastarija>	no, not really when i think about it
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10:50:30	<mastarija>	basically, in `multiConst :: a -> ( x -> ... -> n -> a) -> x -> ... -> n -> a ` first `a` should be determined by last type var of my multiparameter function
10:50:56	<tomsmeding>	"determined by" is not going to work
10:51:05	<tomsmeding>	in any case you'll need to fix the types from the outside
10:51:20	<tomsmeding>	because what is the "last type var" of a function with type `t -> t`
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10:51:37	<tomsmeding>	if t ~ b -> c, then it becomes (b -> c) -> b -> c, and the last type var is actually b
10:51:44	<tomsmeding>	in a polymorphic context, you can't know
10:54:05	<mastarija>	I must admit I don't see the issue here.
10:54:23	<mastarija>	In my head it's still clear what's what.
10:54:52	<mastarija>	If the function is of form t -> t, then my constant should be of type `t`
10:55:00	<tomsmeding>	what is the type of `multiConst () id`?
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10:56:01	<mastarija>	multiConst :: () -> ( () -> () ) -> () -> ()
10:56:57	<mastarija>	multiConst :: t -> ( t -> t ) -> ( t -> t )
10:57:01	<tomsmeding>	how can you distinguish that from: multiConst :: () -> ((a -> ()) -> a -> ()) -> (a -> ()) -> a -> ()
10:57:23	<tomsmeding>	`id :: (a -> ()) -> a -> ()` is also true
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10:58:09	<tomsmeding>	this is not going to work in general
10:58:55	<tomsmeding>	I think even my overlapping instances madness is not going to work -- it would try to find () somewhere in the type of `id`, but it's never going to unambiguously find it
10:59:03	<tomsmeding>	with emphasis on _unambiguously_
10:59:19	<mastarija>	Again, I'm not sure what's the problem here. To my human brain it's pretty distinguishable. Unless you are talking about GHC capabilities
10:59:32	<tomsmeding>	no I'm talking about the haskell type system
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11:00:02	<tomsmeding>	`id :: (a -> ()) -> a -> ()` is more specific than `id :: a -> a`, and in haskell you can always put an expression with a more specific type in place of one with a more general type
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11:00:40	<tomsmeding>	sometimes you can detect some shenanigans using overlapping instances (to try to match the more specific option, and if that fails, fall back to a more general option), but that doesn't work always
11:00:47	<mastarija>	I mean, it's just that the arg 1 has to match with the return value of arg2
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11:01:08	<mastarija>	Functional dependencies?
11:01:13	<tomsmeding>	it is "the return value" that is not well-defined in haskell
11:01:22	<tomsmeding>	because a polymorphic return value might be instantiated to a functoin
11:01:51	<tomsmeding>	I don't think functional dependencies help here, they are just an alternative formulation of type families
11:02:09	<tomsmeding>	(open type families, at that)
11:02:32	<mastarija>	I kind of understood them as a way to distinctly determine x by y or what ever
11:02:44	<mastarija>	Or rather x is determined by y
11:02:55	<mastarija>	That kind of reasoning seems helpful here.
11:03:48	<tomsmeding>	which is precisely what a type family can give you
11:04:04	<mastarija>	Maybe if I talk about my usecase it will be more productive :D
11:04:18	<tomsmeding>	you might hope to be able to define a type family `ReturnType` such that you can write `multiConst :: ReturnType f ~ a => a -> f -> f`
11:04:26	<tomsmeding>	but I don't think that's going to work (I tried it but got stuck)
11:04:47	<mastarija>	Basically, I have some functions of form (Maybe Something) -> y -> ... -> m v
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11:06:16	<mastarija>	Now, I want to make a helper which in case (Maybe Something) is Nothing, I'd like to throw an error
11:06:44	<tomsmeding>	in that monad m?
11:06:48	<mastarija>	Yes
11:06:54	<mastarija>	One in which I have to throw an error
11:07:17	<mastarija>	And I'd otherwise apply a Something to the function
11:07:35	<mastarija>	Functions are in form of `Something -> x -> y ->...-> m v`
11:07:41	<mastarija>	Rather than `Maybe Something`
11:08:19	<mastarija>	But I have `Maybe Something` and would like to return `x -> y -> ... -> m v` if I have Something
11:08:38	<tomsmeding>	can any of the x, y, ... types be m values?
11:08:51	<mastarija>	or `x -> y -> ... -> m v` where `m v := throwError MyError`
11:08:59	<mastarija>	In case there is no Something
11:09:35	<mastarija>	tomsmeding, no
11:09:42	<mastarija>	(usually :D)
11:09:56	<mastarija>	But I'm ok with something that is halfway there
11:12:16	<carbolymer>	is this efficient? did I overcomplicate it? https://bpa.st/TOAQ
11:12:42	<tomsmeding>	mastarija: ah no, I asked the wrong question; the right question is, can m ever be the reader monad (r->)
11:13:03	<tomsmeding>	printf detects the end of its argument sequence by needing to return an IO a instead of an r->a
11:13:31	<carbolymer>	(I was also considering foldl' + DList - not sure which would be more efficient for strict map)
11:14:06	<mastarija>	tomsmeding, I do have a reader in the stack, but it's a newtype, not pure (r->)
11:14:39	<tomsmeding>	carbolymer: concatMap (\(k,vs) -> map (k,) vs) . assocs
11:14:57	<tomsmeding>	mastarija: ah that's okay
11:16:53	<carbolymer>	tomsmeding: oh shit, that's better, thanks
11:18:33	<tomsmeding>	% :set -XMultiParamTypeClasses -XFlexibleInstances
11:18:33	<yahb2>	<no output>
11:18:36	<tomsmeding>	% class MultiConst a f where multiConst :: IO a -> f -> f
11:18:36	<tomsmeding>	% instance MultiConst a (IO a) where multiConst = const
11:18:36	<tomsmeding>	% instance MultiConst a f => MultiConst a (b -> f) where multiConst v f = \x -> multiConst v (f x)
11:18:36	<yahb2>	<no output>
11:18:37	<yahb2>	<no output>
11:18:38	<yahb2>	<no output>
11:18:53	<tomsmeding>	% :t multiConst (return 10) (\x y z -> print (x, y, z) >> return 42)
11:18:54	<yahb2>	multiConst (return 10) (\x y z -> print (x, y, z) >> return 42) ; :: forall {a1} {b1} {a2} {b2} {c}. ; (MultiConst a1 (IO b1), Show a2, Show b2, Show c, Num a1, ; Num b1) => ; a2 ...
11:19:03	<tomsmeding>	% :t multiConst (return 10) (\x y z -> print (x::Bool, y::Char, z::Int) >> return 42)
11:19:03	<yahb2>	multiConst (return 10) (\x y z -> print (x::Bool, y::Char, z::Int) >> return 42) ; :: forall {a} {b}. ; (MultiConst a (IO b), Num a, Num b) => ; Bool -> Char -> Int -> IO b
11:19:25	<tomsmeding>	mastarija: replace IO with your own monad
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11:19:32	<tomsmeding>	it works because IO is a concrete type here
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11:20:28	<tomsmeding>	if you want it to be "anything else than a function", you could replace the 'IO' with 'm' in the first instance and give the first instance an {-# OVERLAPPING #-} pragma
11:20:59	<tomsmeding>	the missing piece of information was that the return type has a recognisable shape :)
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11:21:08	<tomsmeding>	that is unambiguously distinct from r->
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11:22:25	<mastarija>	Yes. I see, first instance marks the end
11:22:32	<mastarija>	And second recurses
11:22:36	<tomsmeding>	Yes
11:24:09	<mastarija>	Thanks
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12:20:24	<Milan>	Hi,would please check whether my understanding of "bound variable " is right or not? xs aren't same ,we can only consider xs same only within a certain abstraction?
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12:24:10	<Milan>	how ever one thing is hard to understand for me :if we have one abstraction as an argument which contains an X ,what does this inner X Bound to ?
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12:31:50	<nilradical>	in the readme for relude -- https://hackage.haskell.org/package/relude -- what does "show is polymorphic over the return type." mean ?
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12:35:18	<kritzefitz>	nilradical: It means that `show` can not only returns `String`s, but anything that `IsString`.
12:35:55	<nilradical>	i see, thank kritzefitz
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13:39:26	<zzz>	is it normal with gloss to have trouble getting keypress events register right? i'm getting duplicates and even triggers "on key up"
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13:40:31	<tomsmeding>	O.o
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13:47:17	<zzz>	no?
13:48:05	<Guest45>	I've never seen that zzz
13:48:27	<zzz>	:(
13:48:36	<tomsmeding>	yeah that sounds highly suspect, unless your keyboard is malfunctioning :p
13:49:31	<zzz>	tried and tested different keyboards
13:49:48	<tomsmeding>	zzz: which event exactly are you getting multiple times per keypress?
13:50:08	<tomsmeding>	also, are you sure it's not automatic key repeat?
13:50:18	<tomsmeding>	(like, holding 'a' will produce lots of 'a's)
13:50:18	<Guest45>	How can I branch on the presence of a typeclass instance? The examples of avoiding overlapping instances here https://wiki.haskell.org/GHC/AdvancedOverlap and here https://kseo.github.io/tags/closed%20type%20families.html are both concerned with branching based on types, but I'd like to branch based on whether an instance exists because if it does
13:50:19	<Guest45>	I would like to use the instance's features.
13:50:31	<tomsmeding>	you cannot
13:50:36	<tomsmeding>	everybody seems to want it :p
13:51:32	<tomsmeding>	Guest45: it would need to be a runtime check, because if you're in a library, someone who indirectly uses your library might define an instance -- so statically you cannot know
13:51:41	<tomsmeding>	and at runtime, type information is erased
13:51:59	<tomsmeding>	in TemplateHaskell you can check for the existence of instances, but that's compile-time metaprogramming
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13:52:49	<geekosaur>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ifcxt exists, with limitations
13:52:52	<Guest45>	tomsmeding, well I'd be fine doing this with a closed type family, but the syntax isn't even supported to put a constraint on the LHS or RHS of a typeclass instance body.
13:53:15	<tomsmeding>	it's also unclear what the semantics would be; what if two different users of your module both define an instance for the type in question, but those instances are different?
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13:55:16	<Guest45>	I think I'm describing a slightly different problem... Maybe I've misunderstood and this is the same as the problem you're describing. Here's a paste: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/kIKovVD6
13:55:47	<tomsmeding>	in particular, ifcxt only gets the instances that are already defined at the point where you put mkIfCxtInstances
13:55:58	<Guest45>	I'll take a look at ifctx
13:56:14	<tomsmeding>	Guest45: see the readme here, the haddocks are unavailable https://github.com/mikeizbicki/ifcxt
13:56:56	<tomsmeding>	Guest45: hm, that's indeed a bit different than the usual question
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13:58:27	<tomsmeding>	still, same issues: if you write a function polymorphic in `a`, then some later user in another package could instantiate that `a` to a type you've never seen before
13:58:29	<Guest45>	Ifctx seems like it might be usable, because I could combine the two instances into one.
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13:59:17	<geekosaur>	didn't they say closed type family though? that would prevent added instances
13:59:24	<Guest45>	tomsmeding All of the classes and intstances are going to be hidden in the library I'm writing. They're not intended to be comen.
13:59:33	<Guest45>	*not intended to be open
13:59:34	<tomsmeding>	geekosaur: added instances of the _class_, not the type family
14:00:11	<tomsmeding>	Guest45: ah, then it might work -- but you need all of the potentially-used instances (transitively) in scope at the point where you put mkIfCxtInstances ''MyClass
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14:01:46	<zanyan>	hihi, just want to ask a simple question about how the sqrt function works
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14:02:47	<geekosaur>	% :i sqrt
14:02:47	<yahb2>	type Floating :: * -> Constraint ; class Fractional a => Floating a where ; ... ; sqrt :: a -> a ; ... ; -- Defined in ‘GHC.Float’
14:03:15	<zanyan>	https://pastebin.com/xvASWmZ9
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14:03:27	<geekosaur>	so it depends on the type, which must be an instance of Floating. (if you want integer sqrt you must get it from somewhere else)
14:03:42	<zanyan>	oh, right right
14:03:53	<geekosaur>	so you want fromIntegral on the parameters
14:03:59	<Guest45>	I'm not sure i can use ifctx directly; I'd need a type-level branch as well as a term level branch. I'll try looking at the technique they used and see if I can build what I need.
14:04:04	<geekosaur>	and probably ** in place of ^
14:04:11	<zanyan>	gotchu, thanks!
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14:04:41	<geekosaur>	mm, actually ^ should be fine
14:04:44	<geekosaur>	:t (^)
14:04:45	<lambdabot>	(Integral b, Num a) => a -> b -> a
14:04:46	<zanyan>	oh okay
14:04:50	<geekosaur>	right
14:04:59	<Guest45>	Or maybe the type level branch can populate that flag for me somehow; seem dubious (type to value to type ...)
14:05:13	<geekosaur>	singletons does that thing, but rip your sanity
14:05:29	<tomsmeding>	Guest45: yeah I feel you might be able to add extra information to the IfCxt class to accomplish what you need
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14:05:53	<Guest45>	I was hoping to avoid going via the value level, but it might be unavoidable.
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14:15:42	<zanyan>	okay I managed to do it Geekosaur, thanks!
14:16:40	<zanyan>	I forgot that uhhhhh Haskell has left associative functions and so I applied "fromIntegral" like the way you would in an imperative programming language
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14:27:39	<nilradical>	what actually happens when i put `default (Text)` at the top of my file
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14:27:55	<nilradical>	using OverloadedStrings
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14:30:37	<nilradical>	does it mean whenever i have String in that file, it is secretly Text?
14:31:10	<tomsmeding>	nilradical: https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/overloaded_strings.html#extension-OverloadedStrings
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14:31:25	<tomsmeding>	search for "Haskell's defaulting mechanism"
14:32:00	<tomsmeding>	(normally default declarations are for Num only; OverloadedStrings extends this to IsString)
14:32:32	<albet70>	there's Functor for map, Foldable for reduce, is there something for filter?
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14:33:30	<nilradical>	tomsmeding: thanks
14:34:10	<lortabac>	@hackage witherable -- albet70
14:34:10	<lambdabot>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/witherable -- albet70
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14:39:42	<nilradical>	is there a printf (like Text.Printf) for Text?
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14:41:56	<geekosaur>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/vformat-0.14.1.0/docs/Text-Format.html#v:fromString I was looking at the other day
14:42:20	<geekosaur>	(ignore the fromString part, OverloadedStrings does that for you)
14:42:55	<nilradical>	geekosaur: thanks
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14:49:18	<Guest45>	As far as I can tell, the trick that IfCtx uses relies on the term level call to `ifCtx`. I'm contemplating going back from terms to types via some boilerplate minimal singletons stuff. I need to think a bit more though, because there ought to be a way to do the if at the type level.
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15:22:13	<nilradical>	i have a record type `M` with a field `unity`. using OverloadedRecordDot, if i have `a :: M` and do `a.unit` i get `parse error on input ‘unit’` . If i rename it to 'unity' there is no error . ?
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15:22:43	<nilradical>	typo... the 1st `unity` should be `unit`
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16:05:32	<slack1256>	Hi, I want to use native haskell data types for configuration. On the first iteration I just used the Read instances. But I want to support comments and descriptions, any libraries I should take a look at?
16:06:18	<slack1256>	I am not interested currently on schema declarations or dhall for config, I will keep it simple and use the native haskell representation for now.
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16:06:28	<geekosaur>	dyre?
16:06:46	<geekosaur>	(was going to suggest dhall then you said no)
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16:11:11	<slack1256>	geekosaur: I thought dyre was concerned with automatic recompilation, but seems to do just what I need.
16:11:17	<slack1256>	I will go with it for now.
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16:12:07	<geekosaur[m]>	The problem with wanting to do your configuration in Haskell is that either you do it the Dyre way or you need to link all of ghc into your program, which seems a bit heavy for configuration
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16:52:18	<kuribas>	slack1256: you can use higher kinded records: https://chrispenner.ca/posts/hkd-options
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19:01:27	<seriously>	hello, is anyone familiar with this HW assignment from Yorgeys CIS 194? https://www.cis.upenn.edu/~cis1940/spring13/hw/05-type-classes.pdf . Im stuck on the last problem.
19:02:42	<seriously>	Specifically, this explanation: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/zYVyJ8YM
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19:03:22	<seriously>	A gentle push in the right direction would be appreciated
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19:05:31	<geekosaur>	at least one person in here is familiar with it 🙂 but what difficulty are you having with the explanation?
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19:08:58	<seriously>	"these same functions can be inter-
19:08:58	<seriously>	preted as expressions"
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19:09:42	<seriously>	I dont understand how a function that takes a map and returns maybe integer would look as an expression
19:10:05	<seriously>	(M.Map String Integer -> Maybe Integer)
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19:12:35	<geekosaur>	this would make `flip M.lookup "varName"` an expression, whoe value is `Nothing` if `varName` doesn't exist in the Map or `Just x` if it exists with value `x`
19:12:45	<geekosaur>	*whose value
19:13:17	<geekosaur>	remember that functions are themselves prefectly good values in Haskell
19:13:42	<seriously>	And also throughout the problem (excercise 6) the instances of type class Expr make total sense... Instance Expr Integers, Expr Bools, etc... but how the heck does an Expr instance of a function as a type make any sense
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19:14:31	<geekosaur>	and that partial application of functions makes them quite useful as values
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19:15:52	<seriously>	to clarify my last point: Expr (M.Map String Integer -> Maybe Integer)
19:15:56	<geekosaur>	yes
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19:16:01	<geekosaur>	reread what I just said
19:16:08	<seriously>	ok
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19:17:17	<geekosaur>	instead of `flip M.lookup "varName"` it could be `("varName"?!)`; see https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/9.2.3/docs/html/libraries/containers-0.6.5.1/Data-Map-Lazy.html#v:-33--63-
19:17:39	<geekosaur>	oh sorry that's reversed. `("varName"!?)`
19:17:44	<tomsmeding>	perhaps also helpful: try to write down the types of all the methods of Expr and HasVars when specialised to those particular function types, and then think separately about how you could sensibly implement those specialised types
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19:18:27	<ski>	@type M.lookup "stringly" :: M.Map String Integer -> Maybe Integer -- seriously
19:18:28	<lambdabot>	M.Map String Integer -> Maybe Integer
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19:25:07	<seriously>	still here just still working through it
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19:46:11	<tomsmeding>	take your time, ascending to the functional level requires laying of new roads in the brain :)
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19:49:16	<seriously>	'=( thanks ill keep trying
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19:57:23	<seriously>	giving up for now will try again tomorow; thanks for the help
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19:59:35	<monadplus[m]>	pbrpy5hv764rezd7
19:59:42	<geekosaur>	uh
19:59:44	<tomsmeding>	oops?
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20:00:11	<Rembane_>	Sounds like a good password
20:00:20	<monadplus[m]>	My bad sorry
20:00:24	<geekosaur>	past tense
20:00:31	<geekosaur>	one hopes
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20:12:06	<EvanR>	my password is so strong I just tell everyone
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20:16:13	<riverside>	any news in the haskell world?
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20:17:45	<geekosaur>	as of when? also you may want to peruse discourse.haskell.org
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20:25:32	<dsal>	EvanR: They'll never guess your username.
20:26:49	<geekosaur>	there's at least one service I used to use whose password rules were so craptacularly limited that I used the username as the actual password
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20:27:59	<tomsmeding>	geekosaur: I suppose that was not a service with public usernames?
20:28:03	<riverside>	wow, i wouldnt have expected like 40k views for some of the threads
20:29:11	<riverside>	i guess haskell is entering its mainstream phase, i even heard John Carmack mention it on the Lex Fridman podcast
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20:30:38	<geekosaur[m]>	Carmack's been mentioning it for years (mostly pissing on it)
20:31:54	<riverside>	"absurd mindbending paradigm" sort of angle, but he kindly caveated it with something like "C is becoming rarer"
20:32:41	<riverside>	top thread SPJ going to work on a new language called "Verse", i wonder how it will compare to haskell
20:34:10	<merijn>	riverside: Carmack gave a keynote talking about haskell about 8 years ago too :p
20:34:29	<merijn>	My bad, 6 years ago
20:35:42	<merijn>	riverside: A lot of the more techy people in games have been on the "C is dead/needs to die/etc." side of the fight for decades :p
20:35:59	<riverside>	oh cool. yeah, i guess with people with such a large profile promoting it we should see a pretty decent uptake of users
20:36:31	<riverside>	merijn: i think im alergic to curly braces from having haskell as a first language
20:37:02	<riverside>	and iv yet to find a functional programing language that compares in terms of clean-ness of syntax
20:37:02	<merijn>	riverside: In 2006 (I think? I can't find the exact date of the talk) Tim Sweeney from Epic Games gave a keynote about his vision of "languages for games"
20:37:19	<merijn>	Spoiler: Most of the stuff they want in games engines, C is terrible at
20:37:36	<riverside>	i dont know enough about the particulars of that field to understand
20:37:37	<merijn>	riverside: I dunno if there's a video somehwere, but slides are here: https://www.st.cs.uni-saarland.de/edu/seminare/2005/advanced-fp/docs/sweeny.pdf
20:37:46	<riverside>	thanks
20:39:00	<Lears>	riverside: Did you know you can write do { ...; ...; let { x = ...; y = ... }; ... } if you want to?
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20:39:23	<riverside>	hmm, judging from that it seems like they have the same problems as we do in the scientific programming community, basically fast vector stuff.
20:39:39	<tomsmeding>	and did you know that SPJ was (is?) partial to that syntax over the usual indentation-based ("layout") version?
20:39:40	<Lears>	There can actually be a lot of curly braces in Haskell.
20:39:51	<riverside>	Lears: lol, that actually looks pretty useful
20:39:52	gehmehgeh	is now known as gmg
20:39:58	<merijn>	tomsmeding: spj syntax is funky in many ways
20:40:21	<merijn>	riverside: Technically, Haskell's layout system is defined as syntactic sugar for braces and semicolons :p
20:40:40	<merijn>	tomsmeding: SPJ uses prefix semicolons
20:40:46	<riverside>	and all of these things makes writing an interpreter kind of difficult
20:40:53	<merijn>	Which, frankly, should be a bannable offense
20:40:56	<tomsmeding>	re syntactic sugar: yes and in the grossest way possible
20:41:33	<tomsmeding>	if the parser encounters a parse error, it goes back and inserts a } and tries again
20:42:05	<tomsmeding>	recently I've tried to write a parser for haskell-like syntax without such a hack, and it seems to work fine
20:42:10	<tomsmeding>	but there's probably something I'm missing :)
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20:42:32	<riverside>	that reminds me of genetic programming using SK combinators
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20:44:58	<riverside>	hmm, those game language slides mention sparse interaction graphs
20:45:10	<riverside>	(you can see where im going with that...)
20:45:51	<riverside>	i always thought that if graphs were a language primative that it would simplify the implementation of the compiler
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20:46:23	<riverside>	but got scared off from trying to approach the formal methods style intermediary language we compile to
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20:46:42	<riverside>	i forget what its called... lambda++ or something
20:46:48	<Cale>	merijn: prefix semicolons I can live with, just don't do the garbage where you start a new do-block somewhere in the middle of another and don't increase the indentation level
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20:47:12	<Cale>	That's where I draw the line, haha
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20:47:31	<riverside>	recently had to add extra indentation to if statements because of that...
20:47:33	<tomsmeding>	riverside: you mean what GHC compiles to?
20:47:37	<riverside>	yeah
20:47:42	<tomsmeding>	system F?
20:47:45	<riverside>	thats it
20:47:55	<riverside>	not sure if thats where the graph goes or what
20:47:59	<tomsmeding>	Cale: ._.
20:48:20	<geekosaur>	isn't the graph more on the STG level?
20:48:35	<tomsmeding>	Cale: like, have `when some_condition $ do` and then continue on the same indentation level?
20:48:42	<tomsmeding>	geekosaur: I would guess so
20:48:45	<riverside>	well there was all this complication of "explicating cycles"
20:48:54	<riverside>	geekosaur: idk
20:49:09	<tomsmeding>	though I feel like we're talking about graphs on different levels here
20:49:16	<riverside>	but yeah sure, you can probably put it at a higher level than system F
20:49:49	<tomsmeding>	I haven't looked at the slides (so sorry if I'm mistaken), but I feel like riverside is talking about graphs _in_ the language, whereas STG in some sense uses a graph structure to represent the language itself
20:49:58	<riverside>	tomsmeding: i think you just need parametric types, for something like "monadic tails"
20:50:11	tomsmeding	has no clue what a monadic tail is
20:50:14	<tomsmeding>	:)
20:50:21	<riverside>	dont worry about that!
20:50:24	<tomsmeding>	:D
20:50:48	<riverside>	but yeah, basically in haskell we define a program graph with cycles, because we can compile recursive programs
20:51:39	<riverside>	i think my idea was that if some underlying language had such graphs as a primative, that it would simplify the compiler itself
20:51:46	<tomsmeding>	though the graph isn't fully statically known
20:52:07	<riverside>	basically inferred via typchecking iiuc
20:52:12	<tomsmeding>	well, either that or the graph is infinitely large
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20:52:39	<riverside>	hmm? no you dont unroll it
20:52:46	<riverside>	thats why its not a DAG
20:53:06	<riverside>	its an actual graph, like, tree with cyclic references
20:53:20	<riverside>	but we lack the ability to explicate the cycles syntactically
20:53:25	<tomsmeding>	hm, I'm thinking about how a program can instantiate a closure with multiple different values to close over
20:53:43	<riverside>	oh
20:54:19	<tomsmeding>	like, if `\x -> y + x` occurs somewhere, then if y=2 is in scope you get a closure with a 2 in it, whereas if you evaluate that lambda with y=3 in scope, you get a closure with a 3 in it
20:54:29	<tomsmeding>	would you consider those two closures different nodes in the graph, or the same node?
20:54:49	<riverside>	sorry, im baffled by this
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20:54:53	<tomsmeding>	if different nodes, then either the graph is not statically known or infinite; if the same node, then the graph doesn't contain all required information to run the program (I think)
20:55:17	<tomsmeding>	f :: Int -> Int -> Int ; f y = let g = \x -> y + x in g y
20:55:21	<tomsmeding>	what is the graph for that program
20:55:33	<tomsmeding>	for f, that is
20:55:55	<slack1256>	How is Control.Monad.Trans.AccumT different that Control.Monad.Trans.Writer.CPS ?
20:56:28	<riverside>	oh right, your claiming that some scoping consideration could affect something, im not sure though
20:56:48	<riverside>	because there y is in scope for the definition of g
20:56:58	<tomsmeding>	riverside: I'm saying that I'm not quite sure what your definition of "the graph" is -- I can think of two possibilities, and neither is, in my mind, very satisfying
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20:58:17	<tomsmeding>	what f is _calling_, there, is an _instantiation_ of the closure that is g with the y-value given by the argument of f
20:58:40	<tomsmeding>	so in my first alternative for the definition of "the graph", f would need to have an arrow to that instantiation
20:58:45	<riverside>	i guess you could add an axtra argument to g... but i guess really the graph should contain all the top level information, thought rewriting to avoid the scoping consideration would lead to per-function graphs that dont pull variables in from an outer scope
20:58:50	<riverside>	i hadnt considered this, thanks
20:58:51	<tomsmeding>	but which instantiation that is, depends on runtime values
20:59:32	<tomsmeding>	oh, you mean making every function a closed function by putting the closed-over values in additional arguments?
20:59:49	<riverside>	"up to some fancy rewite" yeah
20:59:53	<riverside>	rewrite*
20:59:58	<tomsmeding>	how would that work for a set of mutually recursive functions
21:00:13	<riverside>	would that change anything?
21:00:14	<tomsmeding>	say f and g are mutually recursive; do both get two additional arguments, f and g?
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21:00:59	<riverside>	hmm, probably you would have the graph "at top level"? does that make sense?
21:01:08	<riverside>	ie, these wouldnt support per-function graphs
21:01:12	<tomsmeding>	sure
21:01:15	<riverside>	since they dont exist in isolation
21:01:20	<tomsmeding>	yes for sure
21:01:40	<riverside>	i guess then you could try and find subgraphs that exist on their own
21:01:55	<riverside>	some kind of graph factoring problem
21:02:05	<tomsmeding>	which is called strongly connected components? :)
21:02:18	<riverside>	there was a graph isomorphism problem also my prof was on about, apparently there are polynomial time algorithms for this
21:02:47	<tomsmeding>	given any graph, that produces a DAG of strongly connected components (SCCs), where each SCC is a directed (cluster of) cycles
21:02:58	<tomsmeding>	_graph isomorphism_?
21:03:14	<riverside>	i guess the idea is that you would want to "compile" it down to some cannoncal form, so that you can do function (in)equality
21:03:18	<tomsmeding>	that thing where Lazlo Babai designed a quasi-polynomial algorithm for?
21:03:21	<tomsmeding>	don't go there :p
21:03:40	<tomsmeding>	a friend of mine implemented Babai's algorithm in C++, and he came out half-alive
21:03:49	<tomsmeding>	also the constant factor is ridiculously bad
21:04:40	<riverside>	i think there is a theorem for factorin finite automata called the "cascade algorithm" or something
21:04:48	<tomsmeding>	fun fact, GHC typechecks let bindings by computing the DAG of SCCs of the bindings, then typechecks the components in topological order
21:06:32	<riverside>	hmm, well maybe if you dont care about function equality you dont actually need to check if two programs are isomorphic
21:06:45	<tomsmeding>	I don't think you need function equality very often
21:07:03	<tomsmeding>	intuitionistic logic doesn't usually assume functional extensionality :)
21:07:08	<riverside>	i guess i was just intrigued by the fact that 2 programs might factorise the same
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21:07:21	<riverside>	and that you could get some kind of canonical form just from compilation
21:07:44	<tomsmeding>	if two programs have the same graph, are they the same program?
21:07:52	<riverside>	but i guess you dont want to have to then find every different way the same program could be expressed on a graph! which you wouldnt need too unless you were doing function equality
21:07:55	<tomsmeding>	do `f x = x + 2` and `f x = x + 3` have the same graph?
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21:08:05	<riverside>	i think he wanted it for genetic programming to promote diversity
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21:08:38	<riverside>	tomsmeding: sure
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21:09:15	<riverside>	f x = x + f x === f x = f x + x, is kind of what i was talking about
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21:09:56	<tomsmeding>	viewing the graph modulo algebraic laws?
21:10:14	<riverside>	i guess this is where the isomorphism comes in
21:10:20	<slack1256>	I got a function `add a b = a + b` that is meant to be partially applied, ie: `let f = add <expensive> in ...` . Is there any advantage on writting as `add a = \b -> a + b` in terms of sharing `a`?
21:10:23	<riverside>	"their graphs are the same"
21:10:41	<riverside>	er "are isomorphic"
21:10:59	<geekosaur>	slack1256, I think ghc does let lifting? i.e. does it for you
21:11:00	<slack1256>	I know GHC has the concept of arity but that is used for inlining.
21:11:14	<riverside>	i guess the symetry in the arguments would have to also be explicated, not sure it can be inferred
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21:11:57	<tomsmeding>	slack1256: if GHC does no optimisations at all and just follows call-by-need, your first version will compute <expensive> only once
21:12:19	<tomsmeding>	riverside: hence, isomorphism modulo algebraic laws :p
21:12:30	<tomsmeding>	where said laws you have to conjure from somewhere
21:13:18	<slack1256>	Mmm I was under the impression there were some theorical problems, but I got that impression from lambda lifting which another different optimization.
21:13:21	<tomsmeding>	riverside: this is kind of unrelated, but it makes me think of https://blog.sigplan.org/2021/04/06/equality-saturation-with-egg/
21:13:27	<slack1256>	Thanks tomsmeding and geekosaur!
21:13:29	<riverside>	yeah, sorry, but yes, exactly that. i mean about the graph though, these "algebraic laws" should be inferable from the program shape i guess
21:14:00	<tomsmeding>	from the program shape and laws concerning the primitive operations
21:14:11	<riverside>	yeah, like how we actually implement +
21:14:23	<riverside>	recursively of course
21:14:33	<tomsmeding>	but that quickly gets untenable; it's easy to make commutativity of a two-argument function be equivalent to your favourite hard conjecture
21:14:49	<riverside>	damn
21:15:13	<tomsmeding>	rice's theorem, paraphrased: any useful static analysis will be partial
21:15:19	<riverside>	sure anyway, i dont really want function equality, ... so i guess gentic programing goes out the window
21:15:24	<tomsmeding>	(on a turing-complete language)
21:15:57	<riverside>	the point was more for syntax
21:16:01	<riverside>	i mean, like brevity
21:16:08	<tomsmeding>	we went on some tangents :p
21:16:18	<riverside>	well, it is the tangent
21:16:35	<riverside>	good point to rule out the obvious goose chase
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21:17:41	<riverside>	i like the idea of graphs in STG though
21:17:58	<riverside>	i might be delusional to think it could simplify the implementation of GHC though
21:18:09	<tomsmeding>	the graph in STG, anyway, has a node for every closure created during program execution
21:18:21	<tomsmeding>	so those (2, g) and (3, g) are distinct
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21:18:34	<geekosaur>	I think it could only do so if you could also use it as the input language, but now you make haskell even more brain-breaking than it already is
21:18:34	<tomsmeding>	which makes sense -- at runtime they're different objects in memory
21:18:48	<tomsmeding>	programming in STG ?!
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21:19:08	<tomsmeding>	try programming in Unlambda first :p
21:19:21	<riverside>	we have list primitives, i cant see how graph primitives would make it incomprehensible
21:19:40	<tomsmeding>	graph primitives just let you use graphs as data structures in the language, right?
21:19:50	<tomsmeding>	whereas we were talking about the graph structure of the program itself
21:19:52	<tomsmeding>	two different things
21:19:55	<geekosaur>	right, it's visualizing graphs that is the problem
21:20:02	<riverside>	ah but sure, GHC is actually written in haskell, i think im confusing "simplifying the implementation of the compiler" with "simplifying the compilation process"
21:20:09	<geekosaur>	when they cpomprise the program, as opposed to the data
21:20:09	<tomsmeding>	ooooh
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21:20:27	<tomsmeding>	you mean, STG is composed of graph structures, so if Haskell had graph primitives, GHC could use those
21:20:40	<tomsmeding>	I highly doubt that would actually yield any significant simplification of GHC
21:20:45	<riverside>	i think my brain is caught in a graph recursion
21:20:55	<tomsmeding>	ooh a recursive graph
21:21:06	<riverside>	argh! my brain!
21:21:36	<riverside>	the primatives simply consist of designating cyclic references, otherwise its basically just a tree
21:22:00	<riverside>	"im going to put the top of the tree in the middle of the tree now! take note!"
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21:22:41	<tomsmeding>	I feel like that would be at most nice syntactic sugar for a simple Haskell graph library that you can already write
21:23:23	<riverside>	probably ammeding GADT syntax, so if you make reference to the datatype you are defining, then you can annotate it somehow
21:24:03	<riverside>	hmm, thats just off the topp of my head, and seems wrong. im sure i wrote all this down somewhere before...
21:24:20	<tomsmeding>	my brain starts to wind down for night anyway
21:25:03	<riverside>	ok, so its like, for list, where you say, "either empty, or a value and a list" where this recursive reference to list is used. and you would want to be able to say "not just any old list, the start of this list"
21:25:30	<riverside>	x = 1 : 2 : x
21:25:40	<tomsmeding>	I was just gonna say, you can kind of already do that :
21:25:42	<tomsmeding>	:p
21:25:46	<riverside>	would have its own special datatype
21:25:49	<tomsmeding>	you just can't (easily) observe the graph structure
21:26:01	<riverside>	hence the need for the cyclic explication
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21:27:18	<riverside>	thus allowing for the representation of recursive programs on a graph that "captures the shape of the program explicitly"
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21:28:42	<riverside>	i guess im still confused as to "how haskell can do this" (ie, allow for recursive function definitions)
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21:28:46	<riverside>	ah, yes i got it
21:29:03	<riverside>	but not actually allow to express these same functions in a datatype
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21:29:33	<riverside>	which is what makes me think that there is "something you could compile it down too, if it has graph syntax built in"
21:29:51	<riverside>	somehow GADT's seem weaker than top level haskell code
21:29:55	<tomsmeding>	I think in Haskell a recursive function just has a reference to itself in its closure
21:30:08	<riverside>	and i would like that to change, for some reason, which has something to do with compilation, i think
21:30:15	<riverside>	sorry, its been ages since i thought about this
21:30:18	<tomsmeding>	alternatively, you can assume that 'fix' exists, and build everything on that
21:30:56	<riverside>	we really want to explicate the cycles
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21:31:07	<riverside>	fix alone kind of doesnt
21:31:28	<tomsmeding>	fix indicates the existence of a back-edge, right?
21:31:51	<tomsmeding>	or, hm
21:31:57	<riverside>	i mean, "it has a start" is quite different to "and thats mentioned exactly here"
21:32:03	<tomsmeding>	right
21:32:34	<tomsmeding>	then again, that's precisely what variables do
21:32:41	<riverside>	basically, the symbolic dereferencing of bound variables, is "specifying the shape of the graph"
21:32:50	<hpc>	the start is wherever you hold your reference to
21:32:59	<riverside>	but we cant do that in a datatype, so we cant cast top level code onto a GADT and retain the information
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21:33:07	<tomsmeding>	and if you don't like alpha-renaming, use de bruijn indices
21:33:10	<hpc>	(x = 1 : 2 : x) produces the exact same graph as (x = 2 : 1 : x)
21:33:33	<riverside>	you get what i mean though?
21:33:46	<tomsmeding>	I don't get where GADTs are coming from in the story
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21:33:51	<riverside>	that bit
21:34:18	<tomsmeding>	what about a simple syntax tree with variable names is not sufficient to you?
21:34:26	<riverside>	so we can express a tree
21:34:39	<riverside>	but cant tell if one of the branches is a reference to the top of the tree
21:35:03	<riverside>	if we could, then it would hold the same information as if we did it all with let bound nodes
21:35:03	<tomsmeding>	the graph structure is easily read off the data: any place a name is bound is a potential tip of a backedge, and any occurrence of that variable in its scope is a head of an arrow to that tip position
21:35:46	<tomsmeding>	"but cant tell if ... top of the tree" -- if so, said branch would be a variable reference, right?
21:35:52	<riverside>	but (1:2:x) = 1:2:1:2:1:2.... oh no! it unrolled
21:36:13	<tomsmeding>	like, data Expr = App Expr Expr \| Lam Name Expr \| Let (Name, Expr) Expr \| Var Name
21:36:24	<riverside>	i mean, we can use lists for simplicity
21:36:31	<riverside>	same principle
21:37:03	<riverside>	1 `cons` 2 `cons` look heres the start again style cons x
21:37:48	<riverside>	and this i guess gets a special type
21:38:01	<riverside>	:: cyclic list of length 2
21:38:15	<tomsmeding>	Let ("x", Prim "cons" `App` Lit 1 `App` (Prim "cons" `App` Lit 2 `App` Var "x")) (Var "x")
21:38:34	<tomsmeding>	(data Expr = ... \| Prim String \| Lit Int)
21:38:52	<tomsmeding>	graph structure is fully readable from that syntax tree
21:38:55	<riverside>	im sure you get what i mean by this point
21:38:58	<tomsmeding>	s/readable/apparent/
21:39:10	<riverside>	sure, that was never the problem
21:39:12	<tomsmeding>	you want some more intrinsic representation of the graph information
21:39:17	<tomsmeding>	something "nicer"
21:39:27	<tomsmeding>	I'm just apparently unable to see what the nicer approach would be :p
21:39:40	<tomsmeding>	I feel like it would always just be an encoding of this same thing, potentially with nicer syntax/ASPI
21:39:41	<tomsmeding>	*API
21:39:59	<riverside>	when its "written in top level haskell code" all the variable dereferencing comunicates the "shape" of the graph, including the cyclic references, that we can infer just by looking to see where the bound variable is mentioned in its definition
21:40:45	<riverside>	but after you do all the substitution, this information is lost
21:41:06	<riverside>	i certainly cant tell from the type [Int] that its a cyclic list of length 2
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21:41:27	<riverside>	this is "where GADTs come into this"
21:42:06	<riverside>	doing whatever it is that we can do in terms of recursive function implementation, but actually within the type system
21:42:21	<riverside>	idk, maybe thats not where you want to specify the shape of your program...
21:42:42	<riverside>	but i had it for a scientific computation application with a very regular shaped graph (a euclidan grid)
21:42:54	<riverside>	which certainly could be expressed using type families
21:43:38	<riverside>	ie "calculating the shape of your program directly"
21:43:43	<riverside>	i g2g soon
21:43:55	<tomsmeding>	g'night (if applicable)
21:43:58	<tomsmeding>	(for me it is)
21:45:23	<riverside>	are you asking if its night? or if its good? dont make me think about these things, i may desolve in a pool of my own tears
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23:05:35	<phma>	What needs to be in a repo to be ready to upload to Hackage?
23:06:53	<hpc>	a cabal file, and technically that's pretty much it :P
23:07:58	<geekosaur>	last I checked cabal insisted on a LICENSE file. cabal check will tell you what you need
23:09:22	<hpc>	you might want to build docs locally and make sure they look right
23:10:36	<EvanR>	nah, just yolo upload the package, wait (?) months for docs to build. See they are wrong, and do a fixup
23:10:47	<EvanR>	which doesn't require a new release
23:11:31	<phma>	is there a stack check?
23:14:51	geekosaur	has no idea
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23:18:38	<geekosaur>	my guess is that, just as cabal sdist runs a check first, stack sdist does whatever checks are needed first
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All times are in UTC on 2022-08-09.