Logs on 2022-08-19 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:04:31 | <qrpnxz> | since methods just aren't a thing in haskell, it wasn't evident to me. If i had been doing, say, Go, i would've been there from the start. Rather interesting. |
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| 00:06:49 | <yushyin> | but functions associated with classes are called methods in haskell :P |
| 00:09:35 | <Cale> | also, it's fair enough to model objects in Haskell with records of functions if that suits your application |
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| 00:10:37 | <Cale> | (and in fact, I'd recommend that sort of thing over defining a datatype as a sum if there are so many summands that the number of times you ever end up pattern matching is lower than the number of constructors of your type) |
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| 00:12:08 | <qrpnxz> | By methods i mean function associated with datatypes. Standard operating procedure in an OOP(ish) language is you create an object and it keeps track of some stuff for you, and you have operations on it. Then as a separate thing you have interfaces (in haskell typeclasses) which subsets of those operations meet. In haskell it's more just free floating data and doing stuff with it, but i wanted |
| 00:12:10 | <qrpnxz> | data i could access and do stuff to and do some side-effects. I ended up with an effect that was basically a StateT IO, but that literally an object lol. It was just hidden from me that it was an object because i had been keeping it implicit in the Monad effect always, but its' useful to get that state in hand (exit the method chain 😉) and just have the state sometimes, when you do that it |
| 00:12:13 | <qrpnxz> | become really obvious you were really working with an object all along |
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| 00:16:26 | <Cale> | The general pattern is to have a type which is just a record of functions corresponding to the types of the public methods / messages that you can send to your OOP object, and then rather than defining subclasses, you just define functions which build records of that type. They'll take all the "private" data as arguments, and if you want, you can avoid real mutable state by having objects that just return new objects |
| 00:16:27 | <Cale> | of the same type rather than mutating (possibly by applying these constructor functions with new arguments) |
| 00:17:47 | <qrpnxz> | ehhh, for my app i don't really need the dynamism of a record of functions. Top level is fine. |
| 00:17:59 | <qrpnxz> | but that sounds could be useful |
| 00:18:16 | <Cale> | Some large percentage of the time, that'll be all you need of OO, and all the stuff about subtyping was a red herring ;) |
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| 00:18:53 | <Cale> | (because mostly it's just used to get hold of objects that have the same methods but work differently anyway) |
| 00:19:07 | <qrpnxz> | inheritance very rarely needed in my experience. Go doesn't even have classes. Just methods and that's great. |
| 00:19:22 | <qrpnxz> | (and interfaces of course, superpower) |
| 00:21:12 | <qrpnxz> | Go has something called embedding that will forward methods for you to an inner object. That's neat if you want to forward a large interface. |
| 00:21:26 | <yushyin> | qrpnxz: I know what you meant by that, I just wanted to make a little joke :) |
| 00:21:50 | <qrpnxz> | ahhh ok :) |
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| 01:00:27 | <zzz> | is anyone familiar.with both vty and ansi-terminal? i'm trying to choose one for making simple visualizations |
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| 01:50:12 | <g> | zzz: those two exist at different levels of abstraction completely |
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| 01:55:07 | <jackdk> | g: do you know if anyone else is maintaining `cereal`? I have a PR that I would like to see get in: https://github.com/GaloisInc/cereal/pull/97 |
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| 01:55:54 | <g> | I consider it deprecated and on life support. I don't think anyone else is watching it |
| 01:56:29 | <g> | It exists from a time before binary adapted its improvements |
| 01:56:41 | <g> | Adopted* |
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| 02:03:06 | <g> | I'll merge that; I just haven't been doing Haskell stuff for a bit |
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| 02:06:27 | <jackdk> | Thanks. I'm not wedded to any particular library and I see that binary also got a release this month. Should I migrate off cereal onto binary instead? |
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| 04:21:01 | <iqubic> | Alright... I'm looking to create a function of the type "Ord a => [a] -> Maybe [a]" which generates the next lexicographical permutation, if one exists. Do you folks think that List is the right data structure for this function to use? For my purposes, I need all 6! permutations of six elements in lexicographical order. Is there a better way to do |
| 04:21:02 | <iqubic> | this than just starting at the beginning and just generating permutations one at a time? |
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| 04:22:11 | <iqubic> | Actually that's not even what I need. I need a way to take a list of "Ord a => [a]" and figure out where in the list of all lexicographical permutations of that length it falls. |
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| 04:29:56 | <iqubic> | How would I construct such a function? |
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| 04:38:17 | <Axman6> | next xs = listToMaybe . dropWhile (<= xs) . sort . permutations $ xs -- :p |
| 04:39:04 | <iqubic> | Is that efficient? |
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| 04:39:21 | <iqubic> | Also, what is the dropWhile doing? |
| 04:40:03 | <iqubic> | Really I just need "sort . permutations" though. |
| 04:40:29 | <iqubic> | And is the "sort . permutations" efficient? |
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| 04:44:08 | <Solid> | I mean it generates a list of length n!, so no, but if you just go up to 6! anyways then it shouldn't matter |
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| 04:47:17 | <iqubic> | Is there a more efficient way of generating these permutations? |
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| 05:03:41 | <dsal> | It's possible. If you have a working implementation, you can decide whether it's fast enough and have something to compare to for correctness and performance differences to if you decide to try making something faster. |
| 05:04:13 | <iqubic> | I see. |
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| 05:22:54 | <Axman6> | I'm sure there probably is an efficient algorithm from going from one permutation to its lexicographically next permutation, but I'm not sure what it would look like |
| 05:23:28 | <iqubic> | I'm going to need all 6! permutations in order. |
| 05:23:32 | <Axman6> | https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/lexicographically-next-permutation-in-cpp/ |
| 05:27:35 | <iqubic> | Axman6: That's just using a built in function lol |
| 05:27:45 | <iqubic> | So, I'm still an ignorant girl... |
| 05:28:39 | <Axman6> | oh, ha - I didn't read that far in :) |
| 05:28:51 | <Axman6> | https://stackoverflow.com/questions/17745870/how-does-this-algorithm-for-generating-the-next-lexicographically-ordered-permut is probably more useful as it seems to explain the algorithm |
| 05:29:57 | <iqubic> | That seems like an imperative algorithm. Is there an easy way to "swap to elements in a list" in Haskell? |
| 05:32:02 | <Axman6> | if you're careful you can return pass around functions which place a given element at a certain location pretty easily |
| 05:32:34 | <iqubic> | Huh?!?! |
| 05:32:59 | <Axman6> | > (\n -> 1:2:3:n:5:6:[ |
| 05:33:01 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:21: error: |
| 05:33:02 | <lambdabot> | parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets) |
| 05:33:05 | <Axman6> | > (\n -> 1:2:3:n:5:6:[]) 10 |
| 05:33:07 | <lambdabot> | [1,2,3,10,5,6] |
| 05:33:27 | <iqubic> | I see. |
| 05:33:41 | <iqubic> | How does that help me with the next permutation problem? |
| 05:37:08 | <Axman6> | because if you're careful you can use that to swap the two elements of a list fairly efficiently once you find them |
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| 05:38:11 | <jackdk> | Although some kind of small array type is likely to be more efficient than a list |
| 05:39:28 | <Axman6> | yeah ST might make it easier to crib from the imperative algorithms |
| 05:40:10 | <iqubic> | I've never used ST |
| 05:40:51 | <Axman6> | One day, I had also never used ST, but then I did, and then I had |
| 05:41:14 | <iqubic> | Is ST hard? |
| 05:41:21 | <jackdk> | `runST $ do { your imperative stuff in the ST monad}` but you get a pure result |
| 05:41:41 | <jackdk> | because of type-level tricks which prevent it from doing anything with _observable_ side effects |
| 05:41:56 | <iqubic> | I see. |
| 05:41:58 | <Axman6> | it';s just imperative programming with slightly less succinct syntax for array access |
| 05:42:18 | <Axman6> | Guaranteed Pure^{TM} |
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| 05:42:46 | <jackdk> | Pure™... What is your goal here, by the way? I missed that part of the discussion. I get that we're looking for next lexicographic permutation, but why? |
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| 05:43:19 | <iqubic> | I never stated why. |
| 05:45:24 | <iqubic> | How does ST work? How does one use it? |
| 05:45:49 | <c_wraith> | jackdk already showed how it works above. |
| 05:46:07 | <Axman6> | https://wiki.haskell.org/Monad/ST |
| 05:46:29 | <iqubic> | What's the api for `do imperative stuff`? |
| 05:46:32 | <c_wraith> | It's literally the same as using IORefs/IOArrays/Vectors, except things are named with ST instead of IO. |
| 05:46:44 | <jackdk> | :t runST |
| 05:46:45 | <lambdabot> | (forall s. ST s a) -> a |
| 05:46:46 | <c_wraith> | and you put a runST on the outside to contain it |
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| 05:46:56 | <iqubic> | I don't know how IORefs or any of that work |
| 05:47:16 | <Axman6> | you can use https://hackage.haskell.org/package/vector-0.13.0.0/docs/Data-Vector-Mutable.html |
| 05:47:27 | <Axman6> | look at the types, they tell you basically everything you need to know |
| 05:47:40 | <iqubic> | Is Vector in base? |
| 05:47:42 | <c_wraith> | Maybe start with an IO version. The types are a little simpler. |
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| 05:47:48 | <jackdk> | If this is a learning exercise, I would suggest maybe just bashing out something not especially performant using lists |
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| 05:48:13 | <iqubic> | This is just learning excersie, yeah. |
| 05:48:24 | <jackdk> | and getting used to things like monadic I/O rather than micro-optimising this one problem (as much as making things fast is Axman6 's jam) |
| 05:48:25 | <iqubic> | *exercise |
| 05:48:40 | <jackdk> | In >5 years of industrial programming, I've never used runST |
| 05:48:46 | <iqubic> | I know how Monadic I/O works. |
| 05:48:50 | <Axman6> | swap :: Int -> Int -> MVector s a -> ST s (); swap i j vec = do {x <- read vec i; y <- read vec j; write vec i y; write vec j x; } |
| 05:49:01 | <iqubic> | I'll use that. |
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| 05:49:32 | <jackdk> | then if you do want to stick with that, learn how to do it with mutable vectors in IO, then learn ST if you want but you could also delay learning that |
| 05:49:39 | <c_wraith> | I mostly use runST to demonstrate how unsafeInterleaveST is *so much* worse than unsafeInterleaveIO |
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| 05:51:37 | <Axman6> | mkVec xs = do { generate (length xs) (xs !!) } -- this is shit but will work |
| 05:52:16 | <c_wraith> | doesn't vector have backpermute for that? |
| 05:54:44 | <iqubic> | What's that do Axman? |
| 05:55:33 | ← | Solid parts (~slot@xmonad/slotThe) (WeeChat 3.6) |
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| 06:04:06 | <Axman6> | makes a vector out of a list |
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| 06:11:35 | <Guest77> | greetings |
| 06:12:13 | <Axman6> | Hello! |
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| 06:13:15 | <iqubic> | Thank you all for helping a lady out. Some people don't think that woman should be in tech. |
| 06:13:23 | <iqubic> | Especially not a trans woman like me |
| 06:13:41 | <Axman6> | Given your name, I just assumed you were a sentient Apple product :p |
| 06:13:56 | <iqubic> | Nope |
| 06:14:04 | × | azimut_ quits (~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 06:14:12 | <iqubic> | I'm a trans woman who uses she/her pronouns |
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| 06:17:26 | <dsal> | We have a lot of female engineers at work. |
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| 06:17:43 | <dsal> | Anyone who says a particular class of people shouldn't be in tech probably shouldn't be in tech. |
| 06:18:50 | <iqubic> | Welp, I guess you've just identified a class of people who shouldn't be in tech. Please get out. Lol JK. You can stay |
| 06:19:06 | <dsal> | Stupid infinite recursion. |
| 06:19:51 | <Axman6> | > let shouldn'tBeInTech _ = () in fix shouldn'tBeInTech |
| 06:19:52 | <lambdabot> | () |
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| 06:21:18 | <Axman6> | > let shouldn'tBeInTech x = x+x in fix shouldn'tBeInTech |
| 06:21:21 | <lambdabot> | *Exception: <<loop>> |
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| 07:13:50 | <jil> | hello |
| 07:14:20 | <jil> | I'm trying to translate the term 'list comprehension' in french buth I don't understand where it came from ? |
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| 07:18:52 | <lortabac> | jil: the python docs call them "listes en compréhension" |
| 07:18:55 | <lortabac> | https://docs.python.org/fr/3/tutorial/datastructures.html#list-comprehensions |
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| 07:19:42 | <lortabac> | wikipedia uses the same term too |
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| 07:20:43 | <c_wraith> | there's an interesting discussion of how little programming terms actually get translated at https://french.stackexchange.com/questions/19353/recommend-a-dictionary-of-computing-terminology |
| 07:21:28 | <iqubic> | Is Vector in base? |
| 07:21:41 | <c_wraith> | No, it's in vector |
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| 07:30:37 | <jil> | merci lortabac |
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| 07:55:17 | <merijn> | c_wraith: That's also because no one is trying :p |
| 07:55:43 | <merijn> | c_wraith: Except for me, who tried to make his translated thesis summary as Dijkstra-ish as possible and I think it went pretty wel |
| 07:55:49 | <c_wraith> | no one tries because no one tries |
| 07:56:06 | <arahael> | Translators and those who read the translated docs often don't have the same skill set. |
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| 07:56:38 | <arahael> | It's a bit of a catch-22. You need to read and understnad the document before knowing hte best way to translate it. Once you've understood it, you're probably no-longer going to need to have it proeprly translated. |
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| 07:59:35 | <arahael> | lortabac: I notice that the french wikipedia has the same translation: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_en_compréhension |
| 08:00:08 | <arahael> | Hmm, that's probably more for jil. |
| 08:00:49 | <arahael> | Sadly doesn't cite any french resources. |
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| 10:52:12 | <tomsmeding> | merijn: yes but you only did it for kicks |
| 10:52:30 | <tomsmeding> | no one _really_ wants to program in a localised programming language nowadays |
| 10:53:14 | <tomsmeding> | they exist -- Logo has it, and iirc Pyret also had it (but they removed it later) |
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| 10:59:38 | <tomsmeding> | https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logo_(langage)#Primitives_graphiques |
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| 12:09:32 | <dminuoso> | Im looking at the old internals of text, and a Text was a ByteArray together with an offset and length. Why exactly is that offset kept in there? |
| 12:10:25 | <Franciman> | dminuoso: excuse moi, are ou referring to strict or lazy text? |
| 12:10:27 | <Franciman> | sankyu |
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| 12:11:05 | <dminuoso> | Well either, the lazy text is essentially just [T.Text] |
| 12:11:34 | <Franciman> | maybe the offset helps computing the position when ou are amidst text pieces |
| 12:11:50 | <Franciman> | in a feest wa |
| 12:11:52 | <Franciman> | y |
| 12:12:05 | <Franciman> | just random hypotheses, best would be to check |
| 12:12:07 | <dminuoso> | The offset is not about computing, its rather that the text is essentially just what starts at the offset |
| 12:12:07 | <Franciman> | keks |
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| 12:12:40 | <dminuoso> | I mean some operations can become extremely fast like `uncons` because uncons just reads the character at the current offset, and returns the *same* shared ByteArray with just the offset adjusted. |
| 12:12:57 | <dminuoso> | (Or `tail` in general) |
| 12:14:29 | <Franciman> | ;) |
| 12:14:51 | <Franciman> | i see |
| 12:15:05 | <merijn> | tomsmeding: I think the notion of localising languages is mostly pointless, since programming languages aren't English, so translations wouldn't be whatever their translated either. i.e., there is no problem that "translation" actually solves |
| 12:15:27 | <dminuoso> | Though I guess that alone is perhaps reason enough to keep it as length + offset |
| 12:15:42 | <merijn> | dminuoso: The offset is because copying a subsection of a Text doesn't copy |
| 12:15:54 | <Franciman> | merijn: do you mean that «where» is not an english word? |
| 12:16:05 | <merijn> | dminuoso: i.e. splitting many sub-Text of one huge texts only requires keeping 1 copy of the original |
| 12:16:06 | <Franciman> | or that it's relation to the english word «where» is not relevant at all for learning haskell |
| 12:16:08 | <Franciman> | ? |
| 12:16:34 | <Franciman> | in the second case let me just state that knowledge of the english language helps learning faster the meaning of the where construct |
| 12:16:37 | <Franciman> | but sure |
| 12:16:42 | <merijn> | Franciman: It's an English word, but english semantics don't apply. At best it can you a limited clue of what it may mean |
| 12:16:44 | <dminuoso> | merijn: Is this a common operation? |
| 12:16:49 | <Franciman> | i'm all in favour of a language where local bindings are introduced by «afompio» |
| 12:17:00 | <dminuoso> | I really dont know how text is generally used for the most part |
| 12:17:02 | <Franciman> | afompio x = 12 iortia 2 + x |
| 12:17:03 | <merijn> | dminuoso: I would think so |
| 12:17:09 | <merijn> | dminuoso: ByteString does the same |
| 12:17:36 | <Franciman> | i totally suggest languages with 1 letter private keywords |
| 12:17:44 | <Franciman> | like: l x = 1 i 2 + x |
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| 12:18:38 | <merijn> | Franciman: I mean, there's like, what 10 english keywords in 98% of languages all of which are known to essentially anyone above, say, 10 years old |
| 12:19:21 | <merijn> | translation just means you can't effectively google because all resources are fractured per translation |
| 12:21:52 | <dminuoso> | merijn: Okay I think I just understood why text-short is a thing. |
| 12:22:13 | <dminuoso> | That one keeps just a compacted ByteArray# inside, without any offsets |
| 12:22:54 | <dminuoso> | So we have zero-copy slices at the cost of 2 words in Text? |
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| 12:23:37 | <merijn> | dminuoso: Yes |
| 12:24:25 | <merijn> | dminuoso: See also: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/text-2.0.1/docs/Data-Text.html#v:copy |
| 12:24:56 | <dminuoso> | Ah yes, thats pretty cool |
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| 12:36:35 | <tomsmeding> | it's also a _bit_ of a footgun if you accidentally hold onto a large bytestring just by keeping around a small slice of it :p |
| 12:37:17 | <tomsmeding> | but it's super nice to be able to essentially get all the benefits of C++'s std::string_view without having to think about lifetimes |
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| 13:09:24 | <NewbiePlumber> | Is there a way to call GHC from a haskell script? I'm having trouble finding info about it, but I'm sure it's possible. |
| 13:10:19 | <NewbiePlumber> | Specifically, calling GHC to compile a program, including the source of the script it's being called from. |
| 13:10:38 | <geekosaur> | not sure I understand the question. ghc is available as a library, though; it's a pain to use directly, but there are libraries such as hint that make it easier |
| 13:11:01 | <geekosaur> | but this sounds like it'd be easier to just use createProcess |
| 13:11:19 | <dminuoso> | NewbiePlumber: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-9.2.4/docs/GHC-Driver-Pipeline.html |
| 13:11:47 | <NewbiePlumber> | Wonderful, TY |
| 13:11:55 | <dminuoso> | You say wonderful now. |
| 13:12:05 | <dminuoso> | I will remind you when you come back. :-) |
| 13:12:10 | <NewbiePlumber> | :) |
| 13:13:40 | <dminuoso> | NewbiePlumber: Also look at https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-9.2.4/docs/GHC-Driver-Make.html |
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| 19:49:47 | <Athas> | RecordWildCards was a mistake. |
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| 19:58:43 | <jean-paul[m]> | Go on |
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| 20:29:15 | <dsal> | RecordWildCards can be used in ways I don't like very much. I was working on a codebase where they primarily only used it in ways I don't like. |
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| 21:27:12 | <qrpnxz> | sad |
| 21:29:34 | <sm> | /me likes it |
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| 22:00:19 | <iqubic> | So, I have a variable "xs :: Text" with some newline characters in it and when I use `print xs` I get everything printed in a single line like "FOO\nBAR\n\nBAZ". Is there a way to get GHC to print this out on different lines? I'm executing this in GHCi, if that matters. Maybe GHCi just does things in a different way than I was expecting. |
| 22:01:02 | <sm> | putStrLn |
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| 22:02:02 | <dsal> | iqubic: Print is going to call Show, which is not what you want. |
| 22:02:09 | <sm> | oh.. but the one imported from Data.Text.IO I think. |
| 22:02:25 | <dsal> | Look at https://hackage.haskell.org/package/text-2.0.1/docs/Data-Text-IO.html |
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| 22:07:47 | <iqubic> | Thanks dsal! |
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| 22:15:41 | <iqubic> | `T.putStrLn` is what I was looking for. |
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| 23:09:27 | <einfair> | how to define operator "|" ? |
| 23:10:11 | <geekosaur> | you can't; it's reserved |
| 23:12:33 | <geekosaur> | you might use unicode alternatives, but then you need to figure out how to type them (e.g. ¦) |
| 23:13:09 | <geekosaur> | you can also use | as part of a larger operator, but it can't be used by itself |
| 23:14:09 | <dsal> | einfair: What do you want it to represent? |
| 23:14:15 | <hpc> | "reserved" isn't quite right, because it doesn't act like an identifier |
| 23:14:17 | <hpc> | it's syntax |
| 23:14:27 | <hpc> | like '=' and 'import' |
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| 23:16:28 | <einfair> | logical OR i want - ∨ |
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| 23:18:30 | <hpc> | :t (||) |
| 23:18:32 | <lambdabot> | Bool -> Bool -> Bool |
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| 23:18:51 | <hpc> | and bitwise or is... |
| 23:18:54 | <hpc> | :t (.|.) |
| 23:18:56 | <lambdabot> | Bits a => a -> a -> a |
| 23:19:10 | <jean-paul[m]> | look at those little bits, they're so cute |
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| 23:28:43 | <dsal> | I did `(∥) = Data.Bits.(.|.)` once. |
| 23:29:17 | <dsal> | Though all I ended up needing in this project was `(≫) = shiftR` and `(⊕) = xor` |
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| 23:41:03 | <sm> | how is https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lens-5.2/docs/Control-Lens-Combinators.html#v:use different from MonadState's get ? It's a lens, so you can do more lensy things with it ? |
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| 23:52:18 | <qrpnxz> | sm: use is get for a subset determined by a lens |
| 23:52:31 | <qrpnxz> | (or rather an getter i believe) |
| 23:52:53 | <qrpnxz> | view is the same thing for reader |
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| 23:55:12 | <dsal> | I think the idea is that you can compose the getter. I don't use lens with state very much, though. |
| 23:56:19 | <qrpnxz> | see also magnify and zoom, which expand on withReader/local |
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All times are in UTC on 2022-08-19.