Logs on 2022-08-24 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:11:23	<qrpnxz>	does ghcup not work on macoss
00:11:26	<qrpnxz>	segfaultfizzbuzz: ?
00:11:30	<qrpnxz>	i thought it did
00:11:57	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	well if you scroll back i am getting some weird dylib error
00:12:32	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	i don't really know what i am doing here but i can usually make python and rust work fine and i have made stack work fine on other systems,...
00:12:59	<dsal>	segfaultfizzbuzz: I'm not in the in crowd. I use nix.
00:13:21	<dsal>	I also use stack. People tell me ghcup and cabal is better, but I've not been able to discover this yet.
00:13:26	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	dsal: is there a nix configuration file or something you can point me at which Just Work son macOS?
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00:13:49	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	or are you not on macOS
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00:14:03	<dsal>	I'm on an M1 mac right now, but I also use it on NixOS.
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00:14:39	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	dsal: ok so is there a guide or something,... and how well does it play alongside homebrew and whatnot
00:14:41	<dsal>	I'm not sure what to show you. I just install nix and go. I do use homemanager and have stack installed from there, but you don't need that.
00:14:42	<qrpnxz>	stack has downloaded like a billion copies of the toolchain on to my hard drive. Actually annoying. Sure, i guess there's something there about repeatable builds, but go has that and without a million toolchains. I guess go compile more stable though
00:14:54	<qrpnxz>	s/compile/compiler
00:15:11	<dsal>	segfaultfizzbuzz: Do you have nix up and running?
00:15:14	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	can nix conflict with other stuff like homebrew? i also use rustup to install rust
00:15:25	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	uh i am hesitating because i don't want to spend hours unborking/reinstalling things
00:15:31	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	so i'm trying to ask first ;-)
00:15:48	<dsal>	Maybe? I stopped using homebrew when I got nix working, but it's a different path.
00:15:53	<geekosaur>	I think nix and brew are at cross purposes
00:15:56	<dsal>	Some people at work have had confusion mixing nix and homebrew.
00:16:05	<qrpnxz>	nix installed for single user (which may be the only option on mac, if any) should be able to be uninstalled by just deleting a couple of directories
00:16:08	<geekosaur>	choose one and stick with it
00:16:10	<qrpnxz>	pretty self contained. try #nix
00:16:38	<dsal>	It's a little fancier on modern MacOS because of how filesystems work, but it just makes it that much easier to throw away. :)
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00:19:10	<jackdk>	There's a #nix? I only lurk #nixos
00:20:08	<qrpnxz>	#nix redirect to #nixos iirc
00:20:53	<jackdk>	I tried to join and got booted as "invite only chan" - maybe someone took it over when libera became a thing?
00:20:53	<qrpnxz>	which is a bit annoying since i don't necessarily care about the OS, but i guess it's okay
00:21:02	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	ok thanks i will look at that. i'm a bit nervous though. gosh i wish operating systems made all this straightforward, how hard can it be to sort out some dependencies lol
00:21:52	<geekosaur>	you'd be surprised
00:21:58	<qrpnxz>	jackdk: maybe i recall wrong? I remember trying to join that for nix help and getting moved to nixos (which i would not have joined to start with because i didn't really care about the OS part) , but i guess now you have to go there directly
00:22:12	<geekosaur>	(xmonad's #1 source of tickets is "Arch f*cked up again")
00:23:19	<jackdk>	I remember when Arch was the Haskell distro-of-choice because of cabal2arch, but that was before my time - I was merely aware of its existence but not using Haskell seriously
00:24:04	<dibblego>	I use arch, never used cabal2arch, I have my own xmonad build/install
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00:32:58	<qrpnxz>	segfaultfizzbuzz: linux based operating systems tend to do a great job compared to say mac, having a built-in system package manager, but certain niche communities many not have enough mind share in those systems to have really nice package story. Every distro packages gcc, for example, because that ubiquitous. C also doesn't have a website or anything like stack or cabal pulling mindshare, it's
00:33:00	<qrpnxz>	just up to that system. Haskell on the other hand has ghcup and cabal and stack. Also unlike C, ghc is fast moving (Rust too) so often you want the latest version of the thing, but operating system releases tend to do a version for a while so that it's sensibly managable. On Fedora you can easily dnf install ghc and a bunch of deps you'd find in hackage, but they won't be the absolute latest
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00:33:03	<qrpnxz>	stuff, and stuff that nobody has volunteered to package won't be there of course. Because of hackage and cabal and so on, the dev will usually focus their attention there rather than try to make an RPM or DPKG package. If the project had been C, i'd say the author is more likely to have packaged it themselves for the OS directly. It's not even difficult to make an RPM of a cabal configured package
00:33:04	<qrpnxz>	actually. (easy even!). But someone has to actually do it and get it submitted to the distro and so on. So the infrastructure and process is there, you just need to use it, and it's great.
00:36:35	<qrpnxz>	one thing OS pkg managers suck at though is multiple versions of the same thing. Not even Nix apperently (I thought finally, but looks like no).
00:37:13	<qrpnxz>	nix does finally gives us a pkg manager that does per user install though, which to this day i'm baffled is not a thing in dnf and apt
00:37:50	<qrpnxz>	well, it's kind of a thing hypothetically in RPM, but not put to practice practically
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00:55:28	<akegalj>	will /quit
00:55:30	<akegalj>	ups
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01:02:02	<qrpnxz>	fedora modules might be a solution? I have yet to explore that. Noting now that there's a ghc 9.2 module stream i could be pulling from. Neat!
01:02:13	<qrpnxz>	solution to the multiple vers problem that is
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01:30:30	<Bulby[m]>	is there any example of a haskell gui app
01:30:54	<Bulby[m]>	desktop managers don't count
01:31:26	<maerwald[m]>	Bulby: https://github.com/hasufell/hsfm
01:32:56	<Bulby[m]>	hm it looks like high level libs don't get much use
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01:34:29	<Bulby[m]>	at least what I can glean from the wiki page
01:34:45	<maerwald[m]>	High what?
01:34:56	<Bulby[m]>	high level gui libs
01:35:00	<maerwald[m]>	Like?
01:35:14	<Bulby[m]>	https://wiki.haskell.org/Applications_and_libraries/GUI_libraries
01:35:20	<maerwald[m]>	Yeah, which one
01:35:38	<Bulby[m]>	i don't really know ☹️
01:35:42	<maerwald[m]>	Ok
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01:41:21	<Axman6>	segfaultfizzbuzz: why not just share what your dylib issue is? you're almost certainly not the first pertson to run into it, and ghcup should work fine on m1
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01:44:38	<jackdk>	Bulby[m]: https://github.com/owickstrom/komposition is built on gi-gtk-declarative
01:45:03	<jackdk>	Axman6: did you look up the Backwards applicative from transformers?
01:45:05	<Axman6>	zI scrolled back, and saw segfaultfizzbuzz's error - if they come back, can someone let them know it looks like a broken homebrew install? they should brew uninstall ghc, and then install using ghcup
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01:45:36	<Axman6>	yeah - it looks like what I'm after but I don't think it's actually that useful here, and reversing lists will probably be bet better option
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01:46:50	<[Leary]>	@help tell
01:46:50	<lambdabot>	tell <nick> <message>. When <nick> shows activity, tell them <message>.
01:46:53	<[Leary]>	Axman6: ^
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01:50:58	<jackdk>	Axman6: even if you're in a strict dialect and have to rematerialise them before you start traversing?
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01:58:36	<Hillman>	Hello! Anybody here? I have a problem with exporting SVG (or XML) stream (content type) from Yesod. Something with types and conversion confuse me. Any Yesod expert here? Thanks!
02:01:29	<jackdk>	I don't know how many people here are yesod people, or are willing to call themselves yesod experts. so you should try to pose your question (include error messages in a pastebin - I'll have a link for you in a sec), and see how you go?
02:01:31	<jackdk>	@where paste
02:01:31	<lambdabot>	Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com
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02:02:38	<jackdk>	(It's also possible that your question is answerable by people who know Haskell but not Yesod, so see how you go)
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02:03:31	<Hillman>	OK. I think its trivial but I cannot get it. I need to export XML (alterady generated as a SVG image. I get the list of [Node] but don't know how to get the stream (for HTML there id Handler HTML), but for XML?
02:04:15	<Hillman>	I'd also like to export [Node] -> Text to see it rapidly dumped to the terminal, for testing purposes.
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02:14:10	<jackdk>	What is the stream type that you need to return?
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05:05:04	<tvandinther>	Can ghci run threaded? Are there specific options I need to set for that?
05:05:41	<Axman6>	I think it does by default, but you can also use ghci +RTS -N
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05:08:12	<tvandinther>	I opened ghci with `stack ghci +RTS -N` and it doesn't appear to run the same as `stack run` with the ghc options set in the config
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05:08:40	<tvandinther>	tbh the main thing I want from the ghci is the timer, but whats the easiest way to implement a run timer in the code itself?
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05:14:20	<Axman6>	that wil tell stack to run using threads
05:16:01	<Axman6>	try: stack ghci --ghci-options "+RTS -N -RTS"
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05:23:32	<tvandinther>	That did the trick, thanks
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05:37:52	<famubu>	I got two functions which are of different types. Would it be possible to have another function which based on an int input returns one of the other two functions? Something like: https://bpa.st/TLNA
05:38:52	<Axman6>	no
05:39:09	<Axman6>	a can't be both an Int and ()
05:40:26	<famubu>	Could `forall` be of any help here. Just saw about it in haskell wiki book where it says ' are a way of 'squashing' a group of types into one, single type'
05:40:32	<famubu>	https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell/Existentially_quantified_types
05:42:11	<Axman6>	no, if you used forall here, then you're saying that your function can work with absolutely any type at all, and the caller gets to decide what the type is - if you had bar :: forall a b c. Int -> a -> b -> c, you are saying "a can be absolutely anything, so can b and c" so I am allowed to call it with [Bool], make c Void, have b be a function, etc.
05:42:28	<famubu>	Oh.. okay.
05:42:53	<Axman6>	what you're looking for is related to dependent types, where the type of something can depend on runtime values. There are ways to do similar things, but if you are new to Haskell, you should assume the answer is a hard no right now
05:43:42	<famubu>	I'm sort of new to haskell, but just to know, what are those ways?
05:44:25	<Axman6>	I really don't think it would be helpful to your learning to tell you, because you need to unserstand the fundamentals of why this doesn't work first
05:44:27	<famubu>	And speaking of `forall`, is it really needed? The wikibook says `a -> a` and `forall a . a -> a` are the same.
05:45:11	<Axman6>	most functions have implicit foralls, but there are times where they need to be made explicit
05:45:41	<jackdk>	most _polymorphic_ functions have implicit `forall`s
05:46:12	<Axman6>	yeah I meant to write that but typed too fast
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05:47:48	<Axman6>	an example would be a natural transformation for a monad transformer: hoiseReaderT :: (forall a. m b -> n b) -> ReaderT r m a -> ReaderT r n a - that says that the function passed in explicitly cannot know anything at all about the type a, but gets to choose what the type n is
05:48:05	<Axman6>	(I guess it also gets to chose the type m)
05:48:20	<Axman6>	choose*
05:48:23	<jackdk>	you meant `(forall b. m b -> n b)`, I think
05:48:49	<Axman6>	uh yes, I went back to change a to be and forgot the forall
05:48:53	<Axman6>	b*
05:51:05	<Christoph[m]>	Axman6: But your bar should be the same as bar :: Int -> a -> b -> c with the implicit forall.
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06:01:42	<mastarija>	When working on multiple packages at once, is it possible to tell GHCi to load certain packages as interpreted and follow their updates?
06:06:05	<mastarija>	I can do something like `ghci -ipackage1:package2 path/to/package2/module.hs` however, it doesn't reinterpret changes from package1 on `:r`
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06:22:04	<c_wraith>	no. Packages are considered to be static in the model ghci uses.
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07:03:02	<mastarija>	Is there a package like `neat-interpolation` but for `Symbol`?
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07:21:01	<Axman6>	I doubt it - what would you want it to look like?
07:23:55	<mastarija>	Axman6: type MyTypeLevelString = [tts\| Imagine I'm a multiline string... \|]
07:25:29	<mastarija>	It would be nice to have for writing the servant documentation.
07:26:09	<lortabac>	@hackage symbols -- mastarija
07:26:09	<lambdabot>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/symbols -- mastarija
07:27:48	<lortabac>	I don't think it does interpolation, but I guess something can be built on top of it
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07:40:01	<mastarija>	lortabac: hm... doesn't seem like that can help me with avoiding escape characters when building multiline strings, maybe the `concat` on type level lists can be helpful, but I think this needs to be QQ of some sort.
07:46:01	<Axman6>	symbols aren't type level strings btw
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07:48:39	<Axman6>	I'd hoped that https://hackage.haskell.org/package/type-errors-0.2.0.0/docs/Type-Errors.html would have some helpful stuff, but annoyingly all the type level error stuff is fairly closed - it'd be nice if it let you build symbols and then pass that to an error constructor
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07:49:36	<Axman6>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/type-errors-pretty-0.0.1.2/docs/Type-Errors-Pretty.html is also really close
07:50:35	<mastarija>	Hm... yes. Using a type operator to denote a newline seems like a good compromise.
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07:51:18	<mastarija>	Thanks Axman6
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09:03:30	<absence>	the Alternative instance for ExceptT requires a Monoid instance for the error, but i don't want to aggregate the errors, i just need the last one. is there a less cumbersome way to express that than withExceptT getLast (withExceptT Last a <\|> withExceptT Last b)?
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09:12:13	<tomsmeding>	absence: I don't think so
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09:12:55	<tomsmeding>	well, or give your error type a monoid instance that mimics Last :p
09:13:19	<tomsmeding>	though that only works if it's a custom type, not something like String which already has a Monoid instance
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10:10:36	<akegalj>	Rust has profile guide optimization mechanism https://doc.rust-lang.org/1.41.1/rustc/profile-guided-optimization.html . Its like compile time JIT. Would something like this be possible and useful with haskell? RTS could generate some additional on multiple program runs and that could be feed back to GHC to guide better optimization
10:11:02	<akegalj>	additional info*
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11:20:53	<dminuoso>	How would you express the property of near equivalence between "\0x48ello" and "Hello"?
11:20:58	<dminuoso>	They are isomorphic up to.. <what>?
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11:23:55	<dminuoso>	In particular Im not talking about Haskell literals, but rather a string containing the that escape sequence as separate characters.
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11:26:32	<dminuoso>	Would "isomorphic up to escape sequence equivalence" be suitable?
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11:38:11	<tomsmeding>	unescape() maps them to the same value
11:38:24	<tomsmeding>	(presumably)
11:38:46	<tomsmeding>	dminuoso: not sure how to word that nicely in English :p
11:39:37	<tomsmeding>	the relation defined by x ~ y <==> f x = f y is an equivalence relation for every total f
11:40:18	<merijn>	Hold up!
11:40:27	<tomsmeding>	did I go wrong there
11:40:28	<merijn>	Hackage supports packages with multiple public libs now?
11:40:33	<merijn>	:O
11:40:41	<tomsmeding>	wasn't that still in beta or something
11:40:58	<tomsmeding>	also if true then rip stack
11:41:13	<merijn>	tomsmeding: multiple public libs in cabal were experimental, but you couldn't upload them to hackage
11:41:24	<merijn>	but Cabal 3.8 release notes say it is no more: https://github.com/haskell/cabal/blob/master/release-notes/Cabal-3.8.1.0.md
11:41:36	<merijn>	tomsmeding: What's stack got to do with that?
11:41:45	<tomsmeding>	stack doesn't support that right?
11:42:08	<merijn>	Stack doesn't support tons of shit, tbh :p
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11:47:17	<dminuoso>	Bah, hackage changelog is quite buggy when reuploading candidates with changed changelog.
11:47:25	<dminuoso>	Stale cache it seems, the changelog.md just wont update..
11:50:17	<dminuoso>	Hah, even deleting the candidate and reuploading it wont update the CHANGELOG
11:50:41	<merijn>	Probably cache by the CDN
11:50:43	<merijn>	hmm
11:50:50	<merijn>	The Hackage Matrix builder died?
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14:40:28	<merijn>	Man...don't you hate finishing a simple feature and then realising...shit, I gotta write tests...
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14:45:00	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	just model it in coq instead
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16:40:42	<slack1256>	I got a module that compiles correctly but loads slowly (or doesn't event load) on ghci. How would I diagnose what is happening? the `--verbose` flag doesn't print per module output.
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16:41:28	<Rembane_>	slack1256: Remove half of it and see if it suddenly is fast. <- stupid way, I bet there are better ones.
16:41:44	<sm>	slack1256: watch memory usage with top or ghci +RTS -s, maybe
16:41:56	sm	likes Rembane_'s way
16:43:06	<danso>	is there a name for flip at the type level?
16:43:31	<danso>	e. g. something that turns [(Maybe(a)] into Maybe([a])
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16:44:45	<geekosaur>	there is type level Flip somewhere
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16:45:04	<geekosaur>	it's not especially friendly iirc
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16:47:30	<geekosaur>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bifunctors/docs/Data-Bifunctor-Flip.html
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16:51:07	<geekosaur>	at least I think that's it. if not, try https://hackage.haskell.org/package/TypeCompose/docs/Control-Compose.html#t:Flip
16:51:11	<albet70>	what's the different between 'return' and 'cont' in Cont
16:51:35	<slack1256>	sm: Memory usage is constant.
16:52:26	<albet70>	cont :: (a->r)->r :: Cont r a
16:52:42	<sm>	try a different ghc version / check ghc changelog for compilation bugs your code might trigger ?
16:53:16	<sm>	s/compilation//
16:53:17	<albet70>	return :: a -> Cont r a
16:54:14	<geekosaur>	albet70, looks to me from that that return lifts a value into a continuation, while cont defines one?
16:54:21	<geekosaur>	@unmtl Cont r a
16:54:21	<lambdabot>	(a -> r) -> r
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16:55:56	<geekosaur>	(`cont` would be the same as wrapping a `(a -> r) -> r` in a constructor, except that the actual constructor is `ContT` in `ContT r Identity a`. similarly there's `state` for `State s a`.)
16:57:05	<geekosaur>	(so back in mtl1 it would have been `Cont ((a -> r) -> r)`m but there's no `Cont` constructor any more)
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17:01:16	<shapr>	@quote
17:01:16	<lambdabot>	SnackThunder says: I told my actual dog I loved him and I was like it's gay marrige fault
17:01:23	<shapr>	uh, what?
17:01:32	<shapr>	ok then
17:01:44	<shapr>	good morning?
17:01:47	<Rembane_>	I wonder if there's a context there
17:01:49	<Rembane_>	Hi shapr !
17:01:57	<shapr>	hi Rembane_ ! How's code treating you?
17:02:27	<shapr>	I'm probably the one who added that quote, I just don't remember the context
17:03:08	<Rembane_>	shapr: Code is fine, but a bit too much, I'm hacking Elixir at daytime and Python at night time! :D
17:03:12	<Rembane_>	shapr: How's code treating you?
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17:04:13	<Rembane_>	shapr: I find that quote slightly offensive, so deleting it might not be a bad idea. :)
17:04:36	<albet70>	k = (return $ \x -> x+3) <*> (return 3); runCont k id == 6
17:05:26	<albet70>	k = (cont $ \x -> x+3) <*> (cont $ \x -> x 3) is wrong
17:05:44	<albet70>	return 3 == cont $ \x -> x 3?
17:08:29	<shapr>	@forget SnackThunder I told my actual dog I loved him and I was like it's gay marrige fault
17:08:29	<lambdabot>	Done.
17:08:38	<shapr>	Rembane_: I also find it offensive, good idea
17:08:53	<shapr>	Have I mentioned that I'm trying to rename cabal packages to CABBAGES?
17:09:02	<shapr>	I think that needs to be the official name.
17:09:07	<Rembane_>	shapr: Yay!
17:09:31	<Rembane_>	shapr: That is the best idea! :D
17:09:45	shapr	bounces cheerfully
17:09:46	<shapr>	I think so too
17:09:56	sm	's head explodes at the alternate Haskell universe that just popped into the multiverse
17:10:05	<shapr>	hi sm! How's code?
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17:10:55	<sm>	hi shapr! 5 days to find a name shadowing bug, but it's fine
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17:11:05	<shapr>	sm: wow, that sounds challenging
17:11:46	<shapr>	sm: how'd you track it down?
17:12:03	<sm>	but seriously.. if they had been called cabbages from the beginning, imagine the alternate timeline.. we'd have had cute logos, mascots, a whole different audience
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17:12:53	<shapr>	we can chance it now?
17:13:04	<shapr>	lots of avatar memes about cabbages?
17:13:19	<geekosaur[m]>	albet70: I'd say `cont` creates a continuation while `return` lifts a value into it, and trying to relate them that way is going to cause problems
17:13:52	<geekosaur[m]>	But I'm not an expert on Cont
17:14:00	<sm>	shapr: dimly, doggedly! did a bunch of work to add more debug logging to a brick application, used the new breakpoint library, inspected all kinds of things, studied brick internals.. finally noticed a refactor that had gone wrong
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17:14:28	<geekosaur[m]>	Every so often I rediscover how Cont works and then forget it again
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17:15:36	<shapr>	sm: do you think git bisect would have helped?
17:15:46	<albet70>	geekosaur[m] , me too
17:16:03	<albet70>	too difficult to use
17:16:31	<sm>	too painful, as usual - at the very least it would have required installing a ton of ghc versions and deps. The bug was actually introduced 4 years ago
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17:21:10	<sm>	o well some lessons learned ? 1. enable the name-shadowing warning everywhere; 2. always test PRs, use a manual test script if necessary; 3. debug logging to a file is important for brick apps 4. breakpoint lib is good 5. debug with a fresh mind 6. try to make git bisect easier..
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17:22:33	<dolio>	#1 just encourages the opposite bug.
17:23:13	<sm>	yes git bisect would have been quicker, but I didn't know that then :)
17:23:23	<sm>	how's that dolio ?
17:24:49	<sm>	it creates some code noise, seems a bit ugly sometimes, but safer
17:24:50	<dolio>	The opposite bug is where you reference something after it should not longer be used, because you didn't shadow it with the new, current value.
17:25:01	<dolio>	Those bugs aren't uncommon, either.
17:25:03	<sm>	hrm
17:26:16	<pareto-optimal-d>	dolio: If it shouldn't be used, why is it in scope?
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17:26:52	<geekosaur>	because there's no convenient way to "de-scope" something
17:26:55	<pareto-optimal-d>	* If it shouldn't be used, why is it in scope?
17:26:55	<pareto-optimal-d>	Having a hard time imaging an example is all.
17:26:59	<pareto-optimal-d>	* If it shouldn't be used, why is it in scope?
17:26:59	<pareto-optimal-d>	Having a hard time imagining an example is all.
17:27:04	sm	thinks the intent will be clearer and bugs easier to spot with distinct names.. will have to find out
17:27:21	<geekosaur>	except to exit a scope and lose everything in that scope, not just the one value that is now out of date
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17:27:31	<dolio>	\x -> do x1 <- ... x ... ; e
17:27:50	<dolio>	`x` doesn't go out of scope in `e` just because `x1` exists.
17:28:50	<pareto-optimal-d>	Ah, I see. Thanks. Now to think on it for a bit...
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17:31:26	<pareto-optimal-d>	x1 <- do ...; pure x; e x1
17:31:26	<pareto-optimal-d>	Descope like this? It can be tedious sometimes but is usually fine.
17:31:46	<pareto-optimal-d>	s/;//
17:32:52	<pareto-optimal-d>	* (x1,..., y4) <- do... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/d3f38b0e1419eec79ab4ce6aa26501024b4d4313)
17:33:25	<pareto-optimal-d>	* (x1,..., y4) <- do... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/bc6fa274cce75a25641b493132e4b4d8bdc3087c)
17:33:48	<pareto-optimal-d>	* (x1,..., y4) <- do... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/a13e39d5abf082bd8d266adcd9857855099467c9)
17:34:15	<dolio>	Are you sending multiple messages, or is the matrix bridge just freaking out?
17:34:17	<pareto-optimal-d>	Or I guess factoring into a function at that point might also work.
17:34:30	<geekosaur>	that's the matrix bridge handling edits and code blocks poorly
17:34:40	<pareto-optimal-d>	I edited the one 5 times
17:35:04	<pareto-optimal-d>	Sorry, wasn't aware but will try avoiding that in the future.
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20:22:09	<lyle>	geekosaur, monochrom, qrpnxz: I solved my problem. If you're interested, https://paste.tomsmeding.com/CucAJwLP
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20:22:50	<lyle>	It uses Conduit now instead of Pipes, but the solution is nearly identical for Pipes.
20:23:36	<qrpnxz>	have you checked if it's better to lift conduit into state and then eval state from the outside?
20:23:41	<qrpnxz>	congrats tho
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20:23:59	<qrpnxz>	(i think it would be better but it'd be nice to know for sure)
20:24:28	<qrpnxz>	lyle:
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20:30:43	<lyle>	qrpnxz: I'm too much of a beginner in Haskell to judge whether that approach would be better, sorry.
20:31:33	<qrpnxz>	dw even i'm not sure. Was hoping you had a benchmark ready and you could try both approaches, but if you don't wanna bother no problem.
20:33:09	<qrpnxz>	the thing with hoist is that it has to reify the conduit pipe and then rebuild into CPS, but if you did it the other way then the conduit is never rebuilt unless i missed something
20:33:57	<qrpnxz>	and you wouldn't be lifting your state operations, instead only liftIO and then lifting the yield
20:36:53	<sshine>	the readme example from 'bincode' wraps a vector in a struct; is that so derived Serialize/Deserialize work better?
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21:01:35	<akegalj>	what is the runtime complexity of Data.Vector.Unboxed.modify https://hackage.haskell.org/package/vector-0.13.0.0/docs/Data-Vector-Unboxed.html#v:modify . Is it O(n) as it has to copy the vector?
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21:03:07	<akegalj>	"The operation will be performed in place if it is safe to do so" - when is it safe to do so?
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21:08:43	<geekosaur[m]>	When nothing else is holding a reference to it
21:08:45	<qrpnxz>	ah nice. So looking at the implementation, it looks like in the worse case it will just make a copy, but in a streaming context it could be able to fuse with other operations or as it's consumed?
21:11:15	<akegalj>	geekosaur[m]: my understanding that nothing is holding a reference at the end of the function, when it goes out of scope
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21:11:33	<geekosaur[m]>	I think so
21:12:19	<qrpnxz>	vector has no way to know that though
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21:27:28	<qrpnxz>	oh, here is one example where it won't copy. If you created a new vector using `new`, then fed that into `modify`, the `clone . new` would fuse and never clone, simply feeding the vec directly into modify. akegalj
21:28:54	<qrpnxz>	i think (clone (new p)) = p is the only rule that would get rid of the clone (but idk 100%)
21:42:47	<qrpnxz>	oh i found a key place were `new` shows up: unstream! So yeah, if you have are doing a modify into a streamed vector, the rule will delete the clone
21:43:06	<dolio>	Yes, it is a static phenomenon.
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21:48:22	<qrpnxz>	so for example reverse = unstream . streamR, unstream = new . New.unstream, so reverse = new . New.unstream . streamR. Then New.unstream . streamR . new = New.modify M.reverse. So reverse . new turns into new . New.modify M.reverse. So if you say created a new vector, then reversed it, then did G.modify on it, you'd end up with new . New.modify p . New.modify M.reverse. You create the vector once
21:48:24	<qrpnxz>	modify twice in place.
21:48:26	<qrpnxz>	pretty neat
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21:51:22	<qrpnxz>	so you'll get fusion with `reverse`, `update`, `scanl`, this kind of thing
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22:31:12	<akegalj>	qrpnxz: you got all that from reading rewrite rules? I guess `streamR` `unstream` from above are implementation details, not something for end user?
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23:25:24	<johnw>	is there any tool to extracts a rather plain BNF from a happy grammar?
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23:27:12	<Axman6>	@check \l -> unlines (lines l) == l
23:27:13	<lambdabot>	*** Failed! Falsifiable (after 2 tests and 1 shrink):
23:27:13	<lambdabot>	"\1076642"
23:28:16	<qrpnxz>	akegalj: yeah, i just looked at the source. stream and unstream and such aren't exposed i think (I'll check real quick), but looks like Stream, Bundle, New, are public API at the moment.
23:28:26	<geekosaur>	> generalCategory '\1076642'
23:28:27	<lambdabot>	PrivateUse
23:29:46	<qrpnxz>	actually, even stream and stuff is exposed now at Data.Vector.Generic
23:30:52	<qrpnxz>	basically when you go to a module like Unboxed, all the functions there look like `modify = G.modify` it unlines the generic version right there, then the generic version will be made up of a different special functions based on New, Bundle and such, and there's a lot of RULES that fuse these
23:31:06	<qrpnxz>	s/unlines/inlines
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23:32:26	<qrpnxz>	forget about Stream, the relevant type here is Bundle. stream :: Vector v a => v a -> Bundle v a
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23:39:52	<qrpnxz>	oh i see what bundle is doing. Okay so what bundle does is it captures a vector as just a vector, or a stream of `a`, or a stream of chunks and so on. As your operations get fused, some of them will work with all representations, some with only a few, some only with vector. At some point the optimal representation will be inline and the rest thrown away. This is how Conduit fusion works as well.
23:40:06	<qrpnxz>	s/or/and
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23:40:56	<qrpnxz>	rather sophisticated lib
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23:51:41	<akegalj>	qrpnxz: thanks, will look into that
23:51:42	<qrpnxz>	it's nice that it's exposed because in a lib you could have a function that returns what looks like a vector, but when you inline it it's actually an unstreamed Bundle with optimized stream of items, stream of chunks, vector. Then if the user was streaming your result, the vector never gets created, but if they actually wanted a vector, they'd have it. Not that that's the best way to do it.
23:51:45	<qrpnxz>	Perhaps explicitly returning a Bundle would be better, but hey if you wanted a simple Vector only API, but still optimization, that's an option.
23:52:14	<qrpnxz>	👍
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