Logs on 2022-08-27 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 01:19:36 | <nilradical> | what is the best way to get force-directed graphs in haskell displaying in the browser, where both nodes and edges can be labelled |
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| 02:04:33 | <hololeap> | hopefully this isn't too vague, but is there a name/library/example pattern for when only non-empty elements are pretty-printed (such as in XML), and empty ones are left out completely? |
| 02:05:46 | <hololeap> | also leaving out nested elements where the bottom is empty |
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| 02:06:33 | <hololeap> | it just seems to come up a lot and I'd like a sure-fire way to deal with it when it does |
| 02:07:31 | <hololeap> | nilradical: how would you do this in other languages? |
| 02:08:47 | <nilradical> | hololeap: https://itnext.io/d3-force-directed-graph-forces-experiments-for-dummies-20a5682935 |
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| 02:09:13 | <nilradical> | probably bindings to some javascript graph library |
| 02:09:43 | <hololeap> | maybe convert the graph to json somehow and get one of those libraries to display it |
| 02:11:12 | <nilradical> | thanks that might work, there's also graphviz bindings that seem to be up to date |
| 02:11:34 | <hololeap> | aeson is the major json library, fyi |
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| 02:12:39 | <nilradical> | thanks |
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| 18:42:42 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | zsh: segmentation fault stack upgrade |
| 18:43:10 | segfaultfizzbuzz | segfaulted stack on a first use attempt |
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| 18:43:26 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | can i get some comedy karma points |
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| 18:44:04 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | stack was installed freshly via ghcup |
| 18:44:21 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | on macos/m1 |
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| 19:38:05 | <hololeap> | name checks out |
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| 20:01:17 | <akegalj> | I wonder does GHC do some magic to do tail call optimisation on monadic recursive functions in IO or ST? Will `let f x = doSomething >>= f` be TCO optimised? |
| 20:03:09 | <geekosaur> | tail call optimization as such doesn't really apply, since evaluation is by graph reduction rather than procedural execution |
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| 20:05:28 | <akegalj> | geekosaur: thanks for the info |
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| 20:10:58 | <dolio> | akegalj: It's not magic. It's a pretty natural consequence of the implementation. |
| 20:11:33 | <dolio> | That's a good part of the token-passing implementation. |
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| 20:13:31 | <dolio> | Essentially it becomes `f x s = case doSomething s of (y, s) -> f y s` which just has the right structure to operate well. |
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| 20:19:36 | <akegalj> | dolio: so you are saying it will get optimised in efficient loop? If bind is compiled in case statement it looks to me as good to be optimised |
| 20:20:21 | <dolio> | It probably will be, but it doesn't need to be optimized, because lazy evaluation will have the same semantics, just with more overhead. |
| 20:22:42 | <dolio> | The optimizations aren't changing stack usage, I guess is what I'm saying. |
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| 20:23:04 | <dolio> | That is for the reason geekosaur said. |
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| 20:32:28 | <akegalj> | dolio: hm, how they are not changing stack usage. TCO version will be optimised in while loop while recursive function will push the function and arguments to the stack |
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| 20:34:46 | <geekosaur> | nope |
| 20:34:54 | <geekosaur> | there is no execution stack |
| 20:35:27 | <akegalj> | geekosaur: will this clear things to me https://en.m.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell/Graph_reduction ? |
| 20:35:28 | <geekosaur> | there is a pattern match stack but it works differently |
| 20:35:33 | <olle> | You guys do escape analysis in the compiler? |
| 20:35:34 | <geekosaur> | it might |
| 20:35:47 | <dolio> | One way of thinking about it is that all calls are tail calls. |
| 20:36:01 | <olle> | https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/16891 - 3 years ago |
| 20:36:06 | <geekosaur> | graph reduction is a very different form of execution |
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| 20:36:31 | <geekosaur> | olle, yes there is escape analysis |
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| 20:36:41 | <dolio> | So without any optimizations, f tail calls (>>=) and then (>>=) tail calls f. |
| 20:37:19 | <olle> | geekosaur: Not the link I found tho? |
| 20:37:22 | <monochrom> | Yeah all calls are tail calls. The stack is used for something else and can still grow. |
| 20:38:27 | <geekosaur> | right, that ticket is for a partcular case of escape analysis that isn't currently done |
| 20:39:12 | <olle> | https://stackoverflow.com/questions/5132350/how-do-haskell-compilers-decide-whether-to-allocate-on-the-heap-or-the-stack |
| 20:39:16 | <olle> | Kinda vague here |
| 20:40:05 | <olle> | Hm |
| 20:40:32 | <monochrom> | Based on the asm code I have seen, GHC goes "why not both? :)" |
| 20:41:02 | <olle> | haha k |
| 20:41:24 | <monochrom> | data is put on heap, and pointer to that data is put on stack. |
| 20:41:39 | <olle> | That's always the case? |
| 20:41:57 | <olle> | You usually dont malloc pointers, at least not in C |
| 20:42:14 | <monochrom> | I haven't seen GHC-asm code that look like escape analysis was ever done. |
| 20:43:48 | <geekosaur> | maybe I'm misunderstanding |
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| 20:44:12 | <geekosaur> | although there is a different kind of escape analysis that definitely happens… in the typechecker |
| 20:44:30 | <geekosaur> | not helpful here or relevant to that ticket |
| 20:44:57 | <olle> | got it :) |
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| 20:46:54 | <monochrom> | I think GHC uses fusions for lists, unboxing for Ints, such that the result supersedes escape analysis anyway. |
| 20:49:40 | <geekosaur> | if you read that ticket you'll get some idea of (a) how GHC evaluates things (b) why escape analysis is difficult |
| 20:50:16 | <geekosaur> | (c) why a stack complicates things (note that "the stack" is used in scare quotes for a reason) |
| 20:55:16 | <olle> | :P |
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| 21:57:40 | <aviladev[m]> | Originally asked on #haskell-beginners:libera.chat :... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/7096fb54c079f405515990aab7909bd15a861539) |
| 21:58:44 | ← | janus parts (janus@anubis.0x90.dk) () |
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| 22:11:49 | <monochrom> | I would make my own judgment whether to listen to coding style advices or not. |
| 22:13:18 | <monochrom> | In this case the advice is no better. |
| 22:13:19 | <int-e> | "I always listen to advice. It's polite." -- Terry Pratchett (This was followed by "If I *heeded* all the advice I've had over the years, I've have written 18 books about Rincewind.") |
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| 22:18:16 | <hpc> | if you ever want to truly understand how arbitrary code style is, look at the configuration for eclipse's java autoformatter :D |
| 22:19:02 | <hpc> | personally, i think of code style in terms of "what idea am i trying to communicate" |
| 22:19:23 | <hpc> | because ultimately that's the only thing that matters |
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| 22:20:34 | <monochrom> | OK, I misread. The suggestion is better. |
| 22:21:13 | <monochrom> | The concern in this case is trying to stay either "data flow from left to right" or "data flow from right to left". |
| 22:21:50 | <monochrom> | Although, I don't normally care. |
| 22:22:19 | <monochrom> | I care about how to do algebraic reasoning, not how imperative programmers think. |
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| 22:56:22 | <ozkutuk> | Did this PR end up in GHC 9.2.1? https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/merge_requests/4614 |
| 22:56:26 | <ozkutuk> | I couldn't find anything relevant in the release notes |
| 23:05:57 | <geekosaur> | not in the release notes, but empirically nit seems to be there |
| 23:06:00 | <geekosaur> | *it |
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