Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2022-08-30 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:00:19 <qrpnxz> apache2: that sounds like the opposite of church encoding.
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00:02:41 <apache2> qrpnxz: indeed, it should have been operations -> products and sums -> church encoding
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03:21:26 <nilradical> what's the best option to display simplicial complexes / directed hypergraphs in the browser with mouseover popup information and click-to-drag nodes to rearrange the graph functionality
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06:40:10 <Clinton[m]> Lets say if I have two cabal packages `A` and `B`. Both have a flag `myflag`. `B` depends on `A`. If I do `cabal build all -f myflag`, does `B:myflag` depend on `A:myflag` or `A` by default? I thought it would depend on `A:myflag` but I'm starting to suspect it actually depends on `A`, because I'm getting weird conflicts.
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06:44:43 <[exa]> Clinton[m]: you may specify flags for dependencies using cabal.project, and use the conditionals from cabal.project to "carry" the flag to the dependency only if it is present
06:45:18 <[exa]> roughly, this https://stackoverflow.com/a/70244631/1043097 + this https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/latest/cabal-package.html#conditions
06:46:04 <[exa]> (there might be an easier way but I'm not aware of it)
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06:47:11 <[exa]> (also https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/latest/cabal-project.html#conditionals-and-imports )
06:47:25 <sclv> conditions in projects can’t depend on flags. depending on cabal install version top level flags apply to deps or not — lots of fixes to that happened in the latest release
06:47:40 <radhika> Need some clarification on higher order function explained in lyah chap 6
06:47:43 <Clinton[m]> Can I trigger the flags only when a command line argument is passed? Or do I need to separate project files?
06:48:39 <radhika> applyTwice :: (a -> a) -> a ->. a
06:49:03 <[exa]> sclv: oh noes :(
06:49:12 <radhika> applyTwice f x = f (f x)
06:49:23 <sclv> you might want two project files — one that sets the flag true for both and one false for both. includes can simplify that. that said, having one project depend on a flag setting of another is Highly Discouraged
06:49:44 <sclv> flags should twiddle deps or implementation details not api surface
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06:50:28 <radhika> applyTwice takes a function and an element of any type and gives an output of the same type
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06:51:25 <radhika> If f refers to (a->a) and x is a then why is the output f (f x)?
06:51:58 <radhika> Is there a simple example?
06:52:08 <sclv> radhika: consider the type of (f x).
06:52:14 <sclv> what is it?
06:52:29 <radhika> Function applied on an element?
06:52:40 <sclv> what is the type
06:52:53 <sclv> x is type a. what type is f x
06:53:40 <radhika> Any type?
06:53:50 <sclv> no
06:54:05 <sclv> f is a function that takes a and returns a
06:54:15 <radhika> Yes
06:54:19 <sclv> so what is the type of applying it to x of type a
06:54:47 <radhika> It will take x and return x?
06:55:02 <sclv> x is the name of a value, not a type
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06:55:26 <sclv> i think you need to review earlier parts of the book if you’re stuck on this.
06:55:31 <radhika> Ok it will take type a and return the same
06:55:45 <sclv> good. so “f x” is type a.
06:55:50 <radhika> Ya
06:56:02 <sclv> so what type is “f (f x)”
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06:56:19 <radhika> Same type a
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06:56:33 <sclv> so does that answer your question?
06:56:46 <radhika> No
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06:57:04 <radhika> I know that return type will be of type a
06:57:31 <sclv> ok, say you pass to applyTwice \x -> x + 1
06:57:35 <sclv> what happens
06:57:40 <radhika> My question is f refers to a -> a function
06:57:45 <sclv> yes
06:57:55 <radhika> Return type is a
06:57:58 <sclv> yes
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06:58:25 <radhika> So they have used f (f x) because it’s defined in an abstractly?
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06:58:41 <sclv> no
06:58:49 <radhika> If I put values it should solve and return output of type a?
06:58:50 <[exa]> radhika: what would you use instead? (the code is literally the easiest way to apply `f` twice)
06:58:53 <sclv> f x is the application of f to x
06:59:03 <radhika> ya
06:59:11 <sclv> f (f x) is the application of f to the value (f x)
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06:59:38 <sclv> so that applies f twice. first to the initial value, then to the result of applying f once.
06:59:49 <radhika> Got it
06:59:52 <radhika> Thanks
07:00:12 <sclv> there are many functions with that type. you could also apply once or apply three times.
07:00:41 <radhika> I had an issue with the way I understood what f stands for
07:00:43 <radhika> Thanks
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07:13:56 <zzz> if i want some Num with only let's say 9 possible values, can I do anything better than Word performance wise?
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07:21:15 <Axman6> radhika: you could write it as applyTwice f x = let once = f x; twice = f once in twice - you shouldn't but if that helps understand, go nuts
07:21:36 <Axman6> an alternative way to write it would applyTwice f = f . f
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07:25:54 <Axman6> zzz: yeah I'd be surprised if using a data declaration would be any faster
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08:07:31 <jackdk> Axman6: unboxed sum of nine units?
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10:54:51 <brprice> Is there a good way to mark a MonadState action (say, a utility function for logging execution of a state machine) as only needing read-only access to the state?
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11:08:56 <opqdonut> brprice: if you're using mtl, drop down to the MonadReader class
11:09:16 <opqdonut> no wait that's not quite how it works
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11:09:52 <opqdonut> you'd need to write your own wrapper type that implements MonadReader by accessing the state
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11:10:35 <[exa]> brprice: you can transform it to Reader
11:11:05 <opqdonut> here's one example: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/7292766/monads-tf-monadreader-instance-for-monadstate
11:12:04 <brprice> opqdonut: thanks, but would that not have fundeps issues if I have something like MonadReader
11:12:25 <brprice> opqdonut: *thanks, but would that not have fundeps issues if I have something like (MonadReader env m, MonadReadOnlyState s m) => ...
11:12:55 <brprice> I should play around with that idea though -- maybe I'm missing something
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11:30:22 <opqdonut> brprice: see the accepted solution, which uses a wrapper newtype
11:30:58 <opqdonut> brprice: but yeah, if you're using MonadReader for some other purpose already, then you can't really do this that easily
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11:54:21 <Guest|59> hey
11:54:44 <Guest|59> im trying to install hasekll on my uni pc but i get an error
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11:59:49 <geekosaur> be nice if they stuck around a bit
12:01:46 <hpc> you mean you don't know about... the error? :P
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12:02:06 <int-e> Elsewhere somebody suggested the proper reply would be "Next time try to install it without any error."
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12:15:58 <tdammers> they weren't looking for solutions or any of that, they just came to accuse
12:17:02 <kuribas> vent their frustration on having to use this weird hasekll language.
12:17:09 <geekosaur> J'accuse!
12:21:48 <int-e> But do they realize that programmers deal with errors all day long?
12:22:31 <int-e> It's really not much of a complaint. Just needs more information :P
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12:24:53 <tdammers> "I'm trying to install hasekll on my uni pc, but i get an error. This is unacceptable! Unacceptableeeeeeeee!!!"
12:25:40 <int-e> It could be worse... imagine they had succeeded and actually tried the language.
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12:26:24 <int-e> > how does this work
12:26:25 <lambdabot> error:
12:26:26 <lambdabot> • Variable not in scope: how :: t0 -> t1 -> t2 -> t
12:26:26 <lambdabot> • Perhaps you meant ‘show’ (imported from Prelude)error: Variable not in...
12:26:37 <int-e> inscrutable! unacceptable!
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14:46:09 <f-a> is there a binary tree type in base or containers? Apparently I can only find Data.Tree, which is a /rose/ one.
14:47:00 <Franciman> hello f-a , do you want a balanced binary tree?
14:47:20 <f-a> a simple one would do
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14:48:25 <Franciman> a Data.Map could do?
14:48:57 <f-a> how is that similar to a tree with two branches?
14:49:31 <Franciman> internally it is a binary tree
14:50:06 <f-a> oh, did not know
14:50:10 <f-a> thanks
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14:50:36 <Franciman> unfortunately it seems it is not a binary tree in the base / containers library
14:50:50 <f-a> yup, hence my question
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14:54:19 <Franciman> probably the haskell foundation thinks you don't need it, be smarter!
14:54:38 <Franciman> maybe you don't need it
14:54:57 <f-a> :P it is easy enough to write by hand, in all fairness
14:55:37 <Franciman> and you can also have the Traversable Foldable etc instances directly automagically
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15:17:34 <zzz> it't not only easy, it's beautiful
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15:21:30 <zzz> https://paste.jrvieira.com/1661872870789
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15:45:50 <[exa]> f-a: normal pure functional binary trees suffer from frequent rewriting of spines, but there are some alternative tree designs that help with that (e.g. the finger tree for Data.Seq which is basically an "inverted" 2-3 tree, and I kinda guess someting similar is used for Data.Map)
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15:47:04 <f-a> thanks
15:48:57 <[exa]> (or are these weight-balanced?)
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15:49:46 <[exa]> btw the first answer here is pretty good https://stackoverflow.com/questions/4166027/what-self-balancing-tree-is-simplest-in-functional-programming
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16:05:47 <nilradical> when i try to run `cabal test`, i get an error: "symbol not found in flat namespace (_sheafzm0zi3zi0zi0zminplace_ToposziFamily_Family_con_info) " I've tried `cabal clean` but it did not help. what is this about?
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16:06:07 <nilradical> i can do `cabal build` with no errors or warnings
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16:20:23 <nilradical> ok, it seems the problem is coming from the line `checkParallel $$(discover)` that detects all my tests from hedgeHog that uses template haskell. if i get rid of that and write the names of tests manually it's ok
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16:26:31 <ak-coram> Hi, I'm experiencing this issue: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/69969060/haskell-hdbc-odbc-connection-gets-disposed-of-immediately-for-remote-mysql-ins
16:27:30 <ak-coram> and the suggestion is to block RTS signals (SIGALRM & SIGVTALRM) so they don't interrupt the ODBC driver code
16:28:18 <ak-coram> which all makes sense except that I'm on Windows, which to my knowledge doesn't use signals like this
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16:29:03 <geekosaur> it still has timers, though, which may interrupt DB operations. have you tried +RTS -V0
16:29:04 <geekosaur> ?
16:29:42 <ak-coram> yeah, I've tried +RTS -V0 and it makes my program run longer, but it happens all the same (just later)
16:30:05 <ak-coram> is there anything else I'd need to block?
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16:30:47 <geekosaur> not to my knowledge
16:31:00 <geekosaur> not that that proves much since I don't know the Windows RTS
16:31:27 <ak-coram> I'm also in unfamiliar territory :)
16:32:17 <ak-coram> I've also tried switching to the single-threaded RTS, but that doesn't seem to make a difference
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16:34:09 <ak-coram> Maybe this has to do something with green threads?
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16:34:25 <geekosaur> if the single threaded RTS didn't change it then no
16:34:43 <geekosaur> (single threaded RTS is green threads, -threaded is OS threads)
16:36:33 <ak-coram> ok, but isn't there a scheduler for them which could interrupt FFI calls?
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16:37:50 <geekosaur> there is, but +RTS -V0 switches that off and they yield at every allocation instead of when timer-scheduled
16:37:58 <geekosaur> (which is why it slows things down)
16:39:40 <ak-coram> That is good to know!
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16:41:45 <ak-coram> Any ideas how the scheduler takes control of an OS thread on Windows?
16:44:12 <geekosaur> nope
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16:44:59 <ak-coram> I was thinking of logging the system calls, maybe I'll find something close to the crash
16:45:26 <ak-coram> but it would be nice to know what to look for :)
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16:50:23 <tdammers> isn't -threaded green threads too, only dispatched over multiple OS threads (a.k.a. "capabilities")?
16:50:40 <geekosaur> I think so, yes
16:50:55 <ak-coram> yes, it should be
16:51:35 <geekosaur> hm. what version of ghc are you using?
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16:52:11 <ak-coram> 9.2.4
16:52:24 <ak-coram> but this happens in older versions too
16:52:30 <geekosaur> okay, so it won't be the FFI+GC issue in 9.2.0-9.2.3
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17:41:08 <ak-coram> ok, I can reproduce the issue on Linux too with the signals blocked
17:41:51 <ak-coram> I think it might be a bug in the HDBC-odbc bindings, if I turn on tracing (enable a print function) the issue goes away
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17:51:35 <mrianbloom> If you have a monad transformer stack that includes two StateT transformers each with a unique state type is there a way to automatically lift to the right layer just by annotating the type of a 'get' statement (in the MonadState typeclass)?
17:53:05 <dolio> No.
17:53:21 <Rembane> mrianbloom: You can write that function yourself though by lifting the right number of times.
17:53:31 <Rembane> mrianbloom: ...and name it something else than `get`
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17:53:41 <david_> Hi
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17:53:58 <david_> I wanted to create a type alias
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17:54:02 <Guest4971> Hello
17:54:15 <Guest4971> I wanted to create a type alias (can you read me?)
17:54:32 <Guest4971> something like: newtype Matrix = Ord e => A.Array (Int, Int) e
17:54:48 <Guest4971> but pretty sure this is wrong; any idea on how to do this?
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17:56:00 <monochrom> type Matrix e = A.Array (Int,Int) e
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17:56:10 <geekosaur> that's viable if you expose the e and probably move the constraint outside the newtyoe
17:56:14 <geekosaur> *newtype
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17:56:27 <geekosaur> listen to monochrom
17:56:35 <monochrom> :)
17:56:59 <geekosaur> I missed that it was a newtype
17:57:08 <geekosaur> the names for these things are a bit confusing
17:57:30 <geekosaur> "type" creates a type alias; "data" creates a new type; "newtype" wraps an existing type so it becomes distinct
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17:57:37 <monochrom> Skip the "Ord e". Move it to those functions that actually need it.
17:57:41 <geekosaur> (like a new type, without actually being one)
17:57:42 <Guest4971> ho yes, what I really want is a type alias
17:57:44 <mrianbloom> I'm hoping to write something that is polymorphic over different stacks. Hoping to just say that one state type is in stack with a constraint.
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17:58:13 <geekosaur> mrianbloom, I think mtl does not support that well. effect systems might work better but have their own issues
17:58:48 <mrianbloom> I see. What if I wrap StateT in a newtype and derive instances?
17:59:16 <monochrom> That doesn't change your issue.
17:59:21 <geekosaur> you're still in trouble if one of the derived instances is StateT
17:59:27 <geekosaur> er, MonadState
17:59:43 <geekosaur> "there can be only one™"
17:59:46 <monochrom> Your issue is that being polymorphic in MonadState it resolves to just one of the StateT, probably the outermost one.
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18:00:43 <monochrom> It can only be solved by either giving up polymorphism or doubling down on polymorphism. The latter means you create MonadState2 for the inner StateT.
18:00:50 <geekosaur> you could have a second one by lifting past the first one. but there's nothing that will help you do that, or hide which one's outer and which inner
18:01:14 <monochrom> Oh and then of course the inner StateT needs renaming too.
18:02:43 <monochrom> There is a reason a lot of us conclude that mtl teaches you a great idea but you don't use mtl itself per se, you create your own types and classes custom-made to your problem domain.
18:02:44 <mrianbloom> I see, it seems like I can wrap all of this in newtypes just wondering if I have to wrap MonadState itself? As in write type specific 'get'.
18:03:15 <monochrom> It's like saying "don't use (,) and Either, make your own custom-named equivalents" on steroid.
18:04:56 <Rembane> monochrom: I've been drinking abstraction tea the whole day, so I wonder if there is a MonadStateN?
18:05:06 <monochrom> Haha
18:06:36 <monochrom> OK so technically, I think but I haven't checked, you can have "(MonadState m X, MonadState m Y) =>", and "StateT X ... StateT Y", and if X and Y are distinct, then "get :: m X" and "get :: m Y" will resolve to what you want.
18:06:55 <Rembane> I sense a big but here. :)
18:07:14 <monochrom> No no no, I'm going to crank that up to eleven!
18:07:23 <Rembane> Sweet!
18:09:33 <dolio> MTL isn't the problem. The problem is trying to implement a compound state by two state effects that are 'automatically' resolved by type.
18:09:38 <monochrom> So perhaps you can define "newtype NthStateT (n :: Nat) s m a = ..." and the corresponding class, so you can have "(NthMonadState 3 m X, NthMonadState 10 m Y) =>"...
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18:11:08 <monochrom> Oh hey maybe I can also apply that to "liftAn :: (n :: Nat) -> ..."
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18:11:40 <dolio> When you want to have multiple pieces of state, you used names/references.
18:12:23 <monochrom> err I guess it's "liftAn :: Proxy (n :: Nat) -> ...".
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18:14:42 <monochrom> I'm going to name my idea "indexed state monads" just so as to confuse everyone who already knows "indexed monads". >:)
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18:21:33 <mrianbloom> It just seems like if the state type itself is unique, you should be able to lift to the appropriate one.
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18:22:10 <mrianbloom> I guess that requires incoherent instances...
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18:34:49 <qrpnxz> monochrom: i think ya meant MonadState X m and so on
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18:38:00 <qrpnxz> as for picking a state. You can use type applications or sigs to disambiguate, or unify the state into one object and then use `zoom` from lens to pick what you want. Some eff systems also come with plugins that will help GHC figure out the state you want without having to annotate.
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18:39:44 <mrianbloom> qrpnxz: I see. If I want to stick with monad transformers how would I specify a constraint that says that the stack contains a specific state: MonadState state m?
18:40:01 <qrpnxz> just like that: MonadState state m
18:41:21 <qrpnxz> you can also make the states explicit as arguments to a lambda, do your business, and then when you are done wrap the lambdas back into StateT again and hoist them into your stack.
18:42:15 <qrpnxz> it depends how much you are going to touch state and the nature of the function which of these techniques will come more natural
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18:42:37 <mrianbloom> So I believe that's what I'm doing right now (specifying a MonadState constraint) but I get a type error saying that its trying to match the state to the top of the stack.
18:43:02 <qrpnxz> even when you annotate the state type at the use site?
18:43:18 <qrpnxz> it should skip the non-matching state and try the other one if you annotate
18:43:35 <qrpnxz> post some code maybe?
18:45:19 <mrianbloom> Its before I get to the use site unfortunately. I'm basically saying that in order to use this function over a monad, the monad must have this constraint and then when I try to use the function the constraint causes the type error. Sorry if this is convoluted but I don't have example code lined up yet, its for a project at work.
18:45:58 <qrpnxz> what does the error look like
18:46:26 <mrianbloom> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/Q2Ix5qkL/
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18:47:02 <mrianbloom> So I believe the DMap is the upper layer, the CollectorEnvironment is the next layer down.
18:47:31 <qrpnxz> can you paste your transformer stack?
18:47:56 <mrianbloom> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/AEDuy3mF/
18:48:50 <mrianbloom> Sorry lots of type aliases here, CollectorT is an alias for StateT and so is EnvT.
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18:49:36 <mrianbloom> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/mllPBRuO/
18:49:48 <mrianbloom> I'm in deeep.
18:50:23 <monochrom> Is there anything that stops you from merging the two StateT's into one?
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18:52:14 <mrianbloom> It's just a seperation of concerns thing really. I construct algebras that evaluate a term structure and the SubstEnv type is just a general type for dealing with call-by-value variables while the collector is really specific to this function.
18:53:34 <mrianbloom> Like I said, I wish I had better example code that I can share. I'm hoping to find out the most common way of handling this issue without writing a ton of boilerplate.
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18:57:08 <qrpnxz> i have no idea why it's trying to match "Data.Dependent.Map.Internal.DMap" is you told it to match "CollectorEnvironment HyDeed"
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18:57:15 <qrpnxz> *if
18:58:17 <qrpnxz> like, that's not even the other State, just a random third type that it has no business being. Somewhere you are doing a get or put or modify that's implying a non-sense type
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18:59:12 <lyle> It seems impossible to open a file for reading and writing at the same time (I get resource busy file is locked.) Is there a way around this? Hard links don't help.
18:59:15 <mrianbloom> qrpnxz: I'm actually using a type family to describe the constraint so that might be the source of the problem...
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19:00:26 <monochrom> Separation of concerns to me means both what you said and also replace the generic MonadState by two distinct custom-made domain-specific classes MonadSubStEnv and MonadTheOtherOne so now there is no room for confusion.
19:00:47 <monochrom> Seriously, the very word "MonadState" is the anti-thesis to separation of concerns.
19:01:15 <qrpnxz> lyle: maybe this: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/5053135/resource-busy-file-is-locked-error-in-haskell
19:01:36 <monochrom> Two "states" for two entirely orthogonal purposes get lumped into the same "MonadState". That is called melting pot of concerns.
19:01:56 <qrpnxz> excellent point mono
19:02:12 <qrpnxz> That's actually the proper way to go i forgot
19:02:15 <mrianbloom> I see. I started doing that and just felt like I was writing a bunch of boilerplate just to get the type system to select the right instance.
19:02:41 <qrpnxz> i mean, it's is boiler plate, but i think you can write a universal pass-through instance for those
19:02:46 <qrpnxz> *it is
19:03:24 <monochrom> I don't see boilerplate. I see structural scaffolding.
19:03:25 <qrpnxz> unless you have ContT in your stack i guess
19:03:51 <monochrom> Scaffolding that defines structures and roles.
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19:04:36 <monochrom> And you can cut out 50% of that if you don't go polymorphic so you don't even have those two classes.
19:04:54 <mrianbloom> Ok, so let's say I change those type aliases to newtypes or data. Which classes would I need to instantiate to make them play well with the rest of mtl?
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19:05:58 <monochrom> I'll tell you what I did to toy interpreters in my course.
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19:07:25 <monochrom> On an assignment, I have the equiv of Writer. I rename it to TracyModel so it is ungooglable, and also it's a good name for the semantica model of a language that has a "trace" command.
19:08:15 <monochrom> I create the corresponding TracyMonad class to generalize TracyModel. But there is only one reason:
19:09:29 <monochrom> I declare the interpreter type to be "TracyMonad m => Expr -> m Value" to forbid students from using the TracyModel data constructor directly.
19:09:36 <monochrom> That's really the only reason.
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19:10:07 <mrianbloom> I see.
19:10:22 <darkling> I feel that there's an unexplored Thunderbirds reference to shoe-horn into that assignment. :)
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19:11:16 <mrianbloom> So do you remember which other classes TracyModel needs to instantiate?
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19:11:21 <monochrom> I want them to see there is a low level of using TracyModel itself to build up pure, >>=, and the TracyMonad method "msg". And then there is a high level of building upon those for the interpreter itself.
19:12:01 <monochrom> Now, on the exam.
19:13:06 <monochrom> On the exam, I have the equiv of StateT Writer, except I define the merged type, I haven't taught them StateT, but they know State and Tracy.
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19:13:28 <monochrom> This time I don't bother creating a class.
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19:13:54 <monochrom> I just have part (a) "implement pure >>= get put msg for this combined type".
19:14:16 <monochrom> And part (b) "using only those functions, not the type itself, complete the interpreter".
19:14:27 <qrpnxz> mrianbloom: instances are for: 1) you have an different implementation. 2) you want automatic lifting to transformers above that effect
19:14:47 <monochrom> The exam is marked by humans. I can give instructions and see whether the students comply.
19:16:01 <monochrom> The assignment is automarked. I use statically-checked parametricity to force the desired solution.
19:17:10 <monochrom> You do not need polymorphism until you need it.
19:17:41 <Rembane> But it's quite cool
19:17:42 <qrpnxz> amen
19:17:54 <qrpnxz> i should get that on a plaque for my wall
19:18:06 <qrpnxz> "You do not need polymoriphism until you need it."
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19:18:27 <monochrom> You may also like: https://www.vex.net/~trebla/humour/tautologies.html :)
19:18:39 <mrianbloom> qprnxz: I think automatic lifting is really all I want.
19:18:57 <qrpnxz> "0. “X is like Y” can always be argued to be true." i already disagree :(
19:19:31 <monochrom> Seriously, if you have a substitution environment for your interpreter, I very much doubt that "get" and "put" are the right level in the first place.
19:19:57 <qrpnxz> "Every inexplicable problem is caused by something you don't think is the cause." another good one
19:20:24 <monochrom> The real operations of a substutition environment are "add" and "apply". "get" and "put" are implementation details that shouldn't be visible.
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19:21:33 <monochrom> My TracyMonad can have an addition excuse for its existence because at least I do have another instance in mind, namely IO.
19:21:53 <monochrom> What is the right of existence for MonadState in an interpreter?
19:24:05 <dolio> Certainly, MonadState constraints are not an adequate substitute for named references.
19:24:08 <qrpnxz> if all your state lives there, it makes sense. Or local state of that function that you run there as well
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19:24:20 <dolio> It is like having a single global variable for each type.
19:24:33 <dolio> And expecting the variable to be resolved by the type.
19:25:14 <qrpnxz> that's why i like the zoom approach, then you have only one state to worry about, and the substates have names
19:25:27 <dolio> And in the presence of polymorphism, you may not know that two different abstract variable references are actually references to the same variable.
19:25:29 <qrpnxz> and you can even have multiple of the same type
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19:29:59 <monochrom> That reminds me of what procedure calls were compiled to, before Peter Naur said "just use a stack".
19:30:48 <monochrom> Every procedure was given a global word-size variable for storing the return address when called.
19:31:24 <monochrom> This was why no one was ready to believe that Naur could do recursion.
19:32:09 <dolio> Yeah.
19:32:11 <monochrom> Also am I the only one who suspect that you should s/State/Reader/ for substitution environments?
19:34:20 <Franciman> and then haskellers said: just use a thunk
19:34:22 <Franciman> :)
19:34:53 <Franciman> well maybe to be quite frank it was LazyML the language haskell is inspired from?
19:34:56 <Franciman> or miranda
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19:36:13 <monochrom> Certainly Miranda had a great influence.
19:36:16 <mrianbloom> monochrom: There are functions around those for retrieving and adding to the environment but I'm not sure if Reader will work. The collector is just an append only monad that gives you back a unique id for each item.
19:36:50 <monochrom> To a large extent Miranda : Haskell :: Bell Unix : BSD Unix :: PGP : GPG :: ...
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19:39:17 <monochrom> LazyML doesn't go lazy by default, right? It says instead you specify "suspend" and "force".
19:39:21 <qrpnxz> if they had a transparent stack, they could hoist a readerT into stateT, which would be nice because then you could see the state is not been mutated, but i doubt it's worth it
19:39:48 <qrpnxz> if the monad is totally opaque and you just have constraints, then you also get that feature
19:40:00 <qrpnxz> but being poly on the monad can be terrible for performance
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19:40:32 <qrpnxz> actually even in that case you don't get that feature, because StateT doesn't have a Reader instance
19:40:36 <qrpnxz> for some reason
19:40:46 <qrpnxz> so you'd need another transformer that did have it
19:41:20 <monochrom> Probably the "local" method doesn't make a lot of sense for StateT.
19:42:05 <monochrom> But now I have to mark my StateT Writer question haha.
19:44:29 <monochrom> OK I have a student who implemented >>= perfectly but goofed up on get, could not do put.
19:45:14 <qrpnxz> you got two options for local: local f ma = get >>= \s -> put (f s) >> ma >> (put s <|> pure ())
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19:47:41 <qrpnxz> monochrom: so any student curious enough to look at `transformers` should have no problem with your exam?
19:48:00 <Rembane> transformers! More than meets the eye!
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19:55:17 × inversed quits (~inversed@90.209.137.56) (*.net *.split)
19:55:17 × Me-me quits (~me-me@user/me-me) (*.net *.split)
19:55:17 × asivitz quits (uid178348@id-178348.tinside.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
19:55:17 × crns quits (~netcrns@user/crns) (*.net *.split)
19:55:17 × bjobjo quits (~bjobjo@user/bjobjo) (*.net *.split)
19:55:17 × gnyeki quits (~gnyeki@user/gnyeki) (*.net *.split)
19:55:17 × Patternmaster quits (~georg@user/Patternmaster) (*.net *.split)
19:55:17 × hololeap quits (~quassel@user/hololeap) (*.net *.split)
19:55:17 × shailangsa quits (~shailangs@host86-185-98-81.range86-185.btcentralplus.com) (*.net *.split)
19:55:17 × raym quits (~raym@user/raym) (*.net *.split)
19:55:17 × econo quits (uid147250@user/econo) (*.net *.split)
19:55:17 × acidjnk quits (~acidjnk@p200300d6e7137a34799b4759adf9bad4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (*.net *.split)
19:55:17 × xff0x quits (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:e0cc:5d40:3d2b:1c07) (*.net *.split)
19:55:17 × Inoperable quits (~PLAYER_1@fancydata.science) (*.net *.split)
19:55:17 × michalz quits (~michalz@185.246.204.72) (*.net *.split)
19:55:17 × Linux quits (~kernel@user/OpenSource) (*.net *.split)
19:55:17 × sibnull[m] quits (~sibnullma@2001:470:69fc:105::1:1291) (*.net *.split)
19:55:17 × troydm quits (~troydm@host-176-37-124-197.b025.la.net.ua) (*.net *.split)
19:55:17 × mjacob quits (~mjacob@adrastea.uberspace.de) (*.net *.split)
19:55:17 × gawen quits (~gawen@user/gawen) (*.net *.split)
19:55:17 × Ram-Z quits (~Ram-Z@li1814-254.members.linode.com) (*.net *.split)
19:55:17 × [Leary] quits (~Leary]@user/Leary/x-0910699) (*.net *.split)
19:55:17 × immae quits (~immae@2a01:4f8:141:53e7::) (*.net *.split)
19:55:17 × whatsupdoc quits (uid509081@id-509081.hampstead.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
19:55:17 × Ranhir quits (~Ranhir@157.97.53.139) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × ajb_ quits (~ajb@mimas.whatbox.ca) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × megaTherion quits (~therion@unix.io) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × darxun quits (sid504814@id-504814.tinside.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × Techcable quits (~Techcable@user/Techcable) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × polykernel[m] quits (~polykerne@user/polykernel) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × ralu1 quits (~ralu@static.211.245.203.116.clients.your-server.de) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × lechner quits (lechner@debian/lechner) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × siers quits (~ij@user/ij) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × fryguybob quits (~fryguybob@cpe-74-67-169-145.rochester.res.rr.com) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × drlkf quits (~drlkf@chat.drlkf.net) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × hugo quits (znc@verdigris.lysator.liu.se) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × ilichu[m] quits (~ilichumat@2001:470:69fc:105::2:6afb) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × arkeet quits (~arkeet@moriya.ca) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × kitty4 quits (~kitty@096-039-147-043.res.spectrum.com) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × pareto-optimal-d quits (~pareto-op@2001:470:69fc:105::1:b61f) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × mimmy quits (~mimmy@2604:a880:cad:d0::3e:1001) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × Moyst__ quits (~moyst@user/moyst) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × marquis_andras quits (~marquis_a@27-33-131-201.tpgi.com.au) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × bcoppens quits (~bartcopp@vpn2.bartcoppens.be) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × vulpine quits (xfnw@tilde.team) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × tinwood quits (~tinwood@canonical/tinwood) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × Teacup quits (~teacup@user/teacup) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × m1dnight quits (~christoph@78-22-0-121.access.telenet.be) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × lagash quits (lagash@2605:6400:20:b4:9c76:1538:3398:ce71) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × tubogram44 quits (~tubogram@user/tubogram) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × Axman6 quits (~Axman6@user/axman6) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × nckx quits (~nckx@tobias.gr) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × mncheck quits (~mncheck@193.224.205.254) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × JimL quits (~quassel@89-162-2-132.fiber.signal.no) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × jamestmartin quits (~james@jtmar.me) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × crazazy[m] quits (~crazazyma@2001:470:69fc:105::2:6bd9) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × SanchayanMaity quits (sid478177@id-478177.hampstead.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × idnar quits (sid12240@debian/mithrandi) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × V quits (~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × rune quits (sid21167@id-21167.ilkley.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × teehemkay quits (sid14792@id-14792.lymington.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × gdd1 quits (~gdd@2001:470:1f13:187:e8a5:fbff:fe29:42f5) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × Flow quits (~none@gentoo/developer/flow) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × Katarushisu quits (~Katarushi@cpc147790-finc20-2-0-cust502.4-2.cable.virginm.net) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × krjst quits (~krjst@2604:a880:800:c1::16b:8001) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × jean-paul[m] quits (~jean-paul@2001:470:69fc:105::d1ab) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × asm quits (~alexander@user/asm) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × Guest1698 quits (~Guest1698@20.83.116.49) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × danso quits (danso@danso.ca) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × andjjj23 quits (~irc@107.170.228.47) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × dka_ quits (~code-is-a@ns3059207.ip-193-70-33.eu) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × NiKaN quits (sid385034@id-385034.helmsley.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × tired quits (~tired@user/tired) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × kawen quits (~quassel@static.208.191.216.95.clients.your-server.de) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × sclv quits (sid39734@haskell/developer/sclv) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × sunarch quits (sid526836@user/sunarch) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × mxs quits (~mxs@user/mxs) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × dequbed quits (~dequbed@banana-new.kilobyte22.de) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × scav quits (sid309693@user/scav) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × parseval quits (sid239098@id-239098.helmsley.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
19:55:18 × gaze___ quits (sid387101@id-387101.helmsley.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × lambdabot quits (~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × Hobbyboy quits (Hobbyboy@hobbyboy.co.uk) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × shinjipf quits (~shinjipf@2a02:c207:2082:6685::1) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × arahael quits (~arahael@60-240-64-125.tpgi.com.au) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × mrvdb quits (~mrvdb@2001:19f0:5000:8582:5400:ff:fe07:3df5) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × raoul quits (~raoul@95.179.203.88) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × jackhill quits (~jackhill@kalessin.dragonsnail.net) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × APic quits (apic@apic.name) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × adamCS quits (~adamCS@ec2-34-207-160-255.compute-1.amazonaws.com) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × koolazer quits (~koo@user/koolazer) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × haveo_ quits (~haveo@sl35.iuwt.fr) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × eldritch quits (~eldritch@user/eldritch) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × another-axel-bee quits (~axel-bee@alexbenishek.com) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × dmj` quits (sid72307@id-72307.hampstead.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × taktoa[c] quits (sid282096@id-282096.tinside.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × alanz quits (sid110616@id-110616.uxbridge.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × jakalx quits (~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × hgolden quits (~Howard@cpe-172-251-233-141.socal.res.rr.com) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × geekosaur quits (~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × cheater quits (~Username@user/cheater) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × eikke quits (~NicolasT@user/NicolasT) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × Alex_test quits (~al_test@178.34.163.186) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × chimp_ quits (~Psybur@c-76-123-45-25.hsd1.va.comcast.net) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × coot quits (~coot@213.134.176.158) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × Midjak quits (~Midjak@82.66.147.146) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × Tuplanolla quits (~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-12.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × titibandit quits (~titibandi@xdsl-87-78-66-58.nc.de) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × coldtom quits (~coldtom@coldrick.cc) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × foul_owl quits (~kerry@23.82.194.109) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × Cale quits (~cale@cpef48e38ee8583-cm30b7d4b3fc20.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × _________ quits (~nobody@user/noodly) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × Kaiepi quits (~Kaiepi@142.68.249.28) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × werneta quits (~werneta@70-142-214-115.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × kilolympus quits (~kilolympu@90.203.82.22) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × eL_Bart0 quits (eL_Bart0@dietunichtguten.org) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × td_ quits (~td@94.134.91.35) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × dcoutts_ quits (~duncan@host86-184-242-102.range86-184.btcentralplus.com) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × shapr quits (~user@68.54.166.125) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × dwt_ quits (~dwt_@c-98-198-103-176.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × madjestic quits (~madjestic@88-159-247-120.fixed.kpn.net) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × motherfsck quits (~motherfsc@user/motherfsck) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × Putonlalla quits (~Putonlall@it-cyan.it.jyu.fi) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × zaquest quits (~notzaques@5.130.79.72) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × mjs2600 quits (~mjs2600@c-24-91-3-49.hsd1.vt.comcast.net) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × tv quits (~tv@user/tv) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × koala_man quits (~vidar@157.146.251.23.bc.googleusercontent.com) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × Hecate quits (~mariposa@user/hecate) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × TheCoffeMaker quits (~TheCoffeM@user/thecoffemaker) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × acarrico quits (~acarrico@dhcp-68-142-48-19.greenmountainaccess.net) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × wz1000 quits (~zubin@static.11.113.47.78.clients.your-server.de) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × leah_ quits (lp0@heathens.club) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × thaumavorio quits (~thaumavor@thaumavor.io) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × tessier quits (~treed@98.171.210.130) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × Rembane quits (~Rembane@li346-36.members.linode.com) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × dumptruckman quits (~dumptruck@23-239-13-163.ip.linodeusercontent.com) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × robbert-vdh quits (~robbert@robbertvanderhelm.nl) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × carbolymer quits (~carbolyme@dropacid.net) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × tromp quits (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × rockymarine quits (~rocky@user/rockymarine) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × AlexNoo quits (~AlexNoo@178.34.163.186) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × lyle quits (~lyle@104.246.145.85) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × sammelweis quits (~quassel@mobile-166-176-249-17.mycingular.net) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × Pickchea quits (~private@user/pickchea) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × ccntrq quits (~Thunderbi@172.209.94.92.rev.sfr.net) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × tzh quits (~tzh@c-24-21-73-154.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × MoC quits (~moc@user/moc) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × gurkenglas quits (~gurkengla@p548ac72e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × machinedgod quits (~machinedg@d198-53-218-113.abhsia.telus.net) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × mrmr quits (~mrmr@user/mrmr) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × chronon quits (~chronon@user/chronon) (*.net *.split)
19:55:19 × jargon quits (~jargon@184.101.185.66) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × ystael quits (~ystael@user/ystael) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × Colere quits (~colere@about/linux/staff/sauvin) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × n8chan quits (~nate@98.45.169.16) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × perrierjouet quits (~perrier-j@modemcable012.251-130-66.mc.videotron.ca) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × adium quits (adium@user/adium) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × cyphase quits (~cyphase@user/cyphase) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × kmein quits (~weechat@user/kmein) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × cods quits (~fred@82-65-232-44.subs.proxad.net) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × RMSBach quits (~guygastin@137.184.131.156) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × sloorush quits (~sloorush@52.187.184.81) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × red-snail1 quits (~snail@static.151.210.203.116.clients.your-server.de) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × loonycyborg_ quits (loonycybor@chantal.wesnoth.org) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × ncf quits (~n@monade.li) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × Igloo quits (~ian@matrix.chaos.earth.li) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × mzan quits (~quassel@mail.asterisell.com) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × Natch quits (~natch@c-9e07225c.038-60-73746f7.bbcust.telenor.se) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × gabriel_sevecek quits (~gabriel@188-167-229-200.dynamic.chello.sk) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × zachel quits (~zachel@user/zachel) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × erisco quits (~erisco@d24-57-249-233.home.cgocable.net) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × xstill_ quits (xstill@fimu/xstill) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × mhatta quits (~mhatta@www21123ui.sakura.ne.jp) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × monochrom quits (trebla@216.138.220.146) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × wrengr quits (~wrengr@201.59.83.34.bc.googleusercontent.com) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × LambdaDuck quits (~anka@ksit.fixme.fi) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × martin02 quits (~silas@141.84.69.76) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × pieguy128 quits (~pieguy128@bras-base-mtrlpq5031w-grc-49-67-70-103-208.dsl.bell.ca) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × tomgus1 quits (~tomgus1@176.254.19.153) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × Maeda quits (~Maeda@91-161-10-149.subs.proxad.net) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × madnight quits (~madnight@static.59.103.201.195.clients.your-server.de) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × haskl quits (~haskl@user/haskl) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × maerwald quits (~maerwald@user/maerwald) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × srk quits (~sorki@user/srk) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × fiddlerwoaroof quits (~fiddlerwo@user/fiddlerwoaroof) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × cynomys quits (~cynomys@user/cynomys) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × justache quits (~justache@user/justache) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × ridcully quits (~ridcully@pd951fa32.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × blades quits (~blades@204.48.29.163) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × sweater1 quits (~sweater@206.81.18.26) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × dfordivam1 quits (~dfordivam@tk2-219-19469.vs.sakura.ne.jp) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × darkling quits (~darkling@savella.carfax.org.uk) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × pie_ quits (~pie_bnc@user/pie/x-2818909) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × avpx quits (~nick@ec2-54-214-223-1.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × c_wraith quits (~c_wraith@adjoint.us) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × macabre quits (~m@161.35.15.236) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × mcglk quits (~mcglk@131.191.49.120) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × heath quits (~heath@user/heath) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × barrucadu quits (~barrucadu@carcosa.barrucadu.co.uk) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × byorgey quits (~byorgey@155.138.238.211) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × caubert quits (~caubert@user/caubert) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × Ristovski quits (~Ristovski@hellomouse/perf/ristovski) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × tolt quits (~weechat-h@li219-154.members.linode.com) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × df quits (~ben@justworks.xyz) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × tstat quits (~tstat@user/tstat) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × tdammers quits (~tdammers@77.109.72.118.res.static.edpnet.net) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × simpleauthority quits (~simpleaut@user/simpleauthority) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × kritzefitz quits (~kritzefit@debian/kritzefitz) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × energizer quits (~energizer@user/energizer) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × kitzman quits (~kitzman@user/dekenevs) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × andreas303 quits (andreas303@ip227.orange.bnc4free.com) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × noctux1 quits (KOx7x4g3XX@karif.server-speed.net) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × kosmikus quits (~kosmikus@nullzig.kosmikus.org) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × Cheery quits (~cheery@7-239-179-185.static.tentacle.fi) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × mcfrdy quits (~mcfrdy@user/mcfrdy) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × Profpatsch quits (~Profpatsc@static.88-198-193-255.clients.your-server.de) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × marienz quits (marienz@libera/staff/marienz) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × tureba quits (~tureba@tureba.org) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × hexology quits (~hexology@user/hexology) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × ajf___[m] quits (~ajfmatrix@2001:470:69fc:105::2:5be3) (*.net *.split)
19:55:20 × vaibhavsagar[m] quits (~vaibhavsa@2001:470:69fc:105::ffe) (*.net *.split)
19:55:21 × alp quits (~alp@user/alp) (*.net *.split)
19:55:21 × monadplus[m]1 quits (~arnauabel@2001:470:69fc:105::2:6085) (*.net *.split)
19:55:21 × bonz060_ quits (~quassel@2001:bc8:47a4:a23::1) (*.net *.split)
19:55:21 × jonrh quits (sid5185@id-5185.ilkley.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
19:55:21 × rubin55 quits (sid175221@id-175221.hampstead.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
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20:15:35 <alexd> hi there, I am getting 'The record update is ambiguous. This will not be supported by -XDuplicateRecordFields in future releases of GHC.'
20:15:43 <alexd> this warning is a bit confusing
20:16:00 <alexd> I am using overloaded record dot extension
20:16:25 <alexd> how do I specialize it to make compiler happy?
20:17:02 <Rembane> alexd: Do you have a minimum example that you can share?
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20:20:04 <alexd> let foo = foo {
20:20:05 <alexd> bar = foo.bar {
20:20:05 <alexd> baz = foo.bar.baz + 1
20:20:06 <alexd> }
20:20:08 <alexd> }
20:20:22 <alexd> ghc 9.2.4
20:21:09 <alexd> I see the warning when -Wambiguous-fields is on
20:23:10 <alexd> ok I think https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/disambiguate_record_fields.html should help me
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20:34:23 <qrpnxz> alexd: you might want to consider using a library like `lens`
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20:36:48 <qrpnxz> it will make the above look like `foo . bar . baz %~ (+1) $ foo`
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20:39:38 <glguy> if we're lens golfing: (bar . baz +~ 1) foo
20:40:15 <glguy> or to get some extra operator points: foo & bar . baz +~ 1
20:41:33 <qrpnxz> yes, i should not have put that first foo actually
20:41:43 <qrpnxz> foo & bar . baz +~ 1 is best
20:42:04 <qrpnxz> Record dot extension btfo
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20:59:21 <Guest4971> Hello, how is it guaranteed that [ x | x <- [1..10]] == [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10] ?
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21:00:02 <Rembane> Because that's how ranges work.
21:00:03 <qrpnxz> Guest4971: what other result could it be?
21:00:21 <Guest4971> resulting list order could be different
21:00:21 <qrpnxz> it's a pure computation, so the output is always the same for the same input, and that's the output it should produce so
21:00:30 <qrpnxz> how could it be different?
21:01:10 <Guest4971> just wanted to verify that it's indeed the case
21:01:14 <qrpnxz> 👍
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21:01:26 <Guest4971> esp was thinking about the ordering
21:04:08 <monochrom> What does "guarantee" mean to you?
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21:30:09 <jackdk> Guest4971: [1..10] is desugared to `enumFromTo 1 10`
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21:31:06 <geekosaur> and Enum has a `succ`(essor) method
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23:38:55 <segfaultfizzbuzz> how does a real programmer (read: not yours truly) compare CPUs?
23:44:04 <Axman6> > compare "CPU A" "CPU B"
23:44:06 <lambdabot> LT
23:45:00 <monochrom> I thought only PC gamers compare CPUs. :)
23:46:08 <hpc> there's some truth in that
23:46:31 <hpc> i mostly only think about memory use, disk IO patterns, and network bandwidth
23:46:39 <segfaultfizzbuzz> like i look at powerPC and they say the CPU has something special about cache sharing
23:46:58 <qrpnxz> i thought powerpc was dead lol
23:47:01 <segfaultfizzbuzz> and then i look at some other CPU and it has DHAIJ-4i890889q
23:47:02 <hpc> leave that sort of thing to kernel developers
23:47:15 <qrpnxz> tf is DHAndyq2302
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23:47:38 <hpc> by the time it matters how good your cpu is, you have enough millions to just by one of each and benchmark
23:47:53 <Axman6> if you own a car you probably own half a dozen PowerPC chips
23:48:00 <segfaultfizzbuzz> and like do i need ITJHo0-509039 or EIJHAEIJKqqq or does not having it get in the way of turing completeness or something
23:48:18 <qrpnxz> i have a 5950x and i wish it was faster. 😩 New gen ryzen coming out tho :)
23:48:59 <waleee> having someting that's x86_64_v3 compatible is nice as the very minimum
23:49:28 <segfaultfizzbuzz> hpc: so it's an OS-level thing? at the application level this stuff just doesn't show up?
23:49:42 <qrpnxz> i've wanted high-tier ARM for a while. Apple did it which blew my mind, but i don't compute on fruits
23:50:18 <hpc> i mean, you'll notice the performance
23:50:22 <Axman6> keep paying that x86_64 power bill then
23:50:36 <qrpnxz> xd, i don't even know any consumer desktop arm cpu
23:50:37 <hpc> but there's probably not a lot you can do in your own code to exploit it
23:50:46 <qrpnxz> never mind high-end ones
23:51:02 <hpc> without writing super weird cpu-specific code that probably needs special privileges anyway
23:51:09 <qrpnxz> RISC-V would be even better, but if ARM is not happening, then RISC-V even less
23:51:13 <Axman6> the performace per watt for M1, M2 is just nuts. having 400GB/s of memory bandwidth is pretty insane too - imagine being able to garbage collect your whole system's memory several times a second
23:51:45 <qrpnxz> the perfect python machine 😭
23:51:45 <segfaultfizzbuzz> i think (?) i understand that bigger cache is better but then i saw somewhere that 1 Gb (or GB?) cache will be shipping very soon so
23:52:03 <qrpnxz> 1GB?!
23:52:09 <segfaultfizzbuzz> yeah i understand memory bandwidth
23:52:11 <waleee> Axman6: M1 et al isn't exactly cheap to buy up front
23:52:31 <Axman6> not yet, no
23:52:50 <Axman6> I reckon the M1 airs will come down in price over time
23:52:51 <qrpnxz> what is having 1GB cache i dont' believe it
23:52:57 <waleee> also not for the macos-allergic person
23:53:07 <qrpnxz> a crazy server chip?
23:53:23 <Axman6> it's just Unix
23:53:34 <qrpnxz> my mom getting a brand spanking new M1 pro soon.
23:53:49 <segfaultfizzbuzz> yeah i can understand memory bandwidth as something a chip does
23:53:51 <waleee> I prefer my unix looking more like dwm than og windows 11
23:53:51 <qrpnxz> after over a decade having her other mac
23:54:39 <geekosaur> actually I like the UI. the whole SIP/codesign/make-it-so-only-apple-approved-developers-can-write-software thing can go away though
23:55:01 <Axman6> that's not really a thing
23:55:08 <qrpnxz> my work laptop is mac, i vastly prefer gnome personally
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23:55:29 <qrpnxz> more practical
23:56:29 <segfaultfizzbuzz> https://www.servethehome.com/server-cpus-transitioning-to-the-gb-onboard-era/ ... EPYC 72F3 has 256MB of L3 cache right now
23:56:57 <Axman6> RIP your power bill if you run a server CPU for you every day machine
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23:57:58 <segfaultfizzbuzz> https://www.club386.com/amd-unleashes-epyc-7003-series-with-3d-v-cache/ 768MB L3 in EPYC 7003
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23:59:39 <segfaultfizzbuzz> chiplets/stacking means cache size will go to infinity very soon i guess
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All times are in UTC on 2022-08-30.