Logs on 2022-09-01 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:01:07 | <maerwald[m]> | guest8080: server side is almost dead, but I agree it's cool |
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| 00:02:44 | <guest8080> | TY! I agree its cool, I would much rather develop a SPA all within the server side dev env that fool with JS/TS/ and a billion new JS libraries |
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| 00:16:44 | <hpc> | this is why you make server-side SPAs |
| 00:16:53 | <hpc> | all the forms on one page and a wee bit of css at the top to toggle it |
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| 00:18:06 | <hpc> | also in haskell you're kind of server-side by default unless you mess around with ghcjs |
| 00:18:16 | <rustisafungus> | i run my server-side SPA on the client |
| 00:18:46 | <rustisafungus> | that's the client-on-server-on-client architecture |
| 00:18:53 | <Axman6> | guest8080: you might want to look at miso |
| 00:19:00 | <hpc> | rustisafungus: ah yes, electron apps |
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| 00:19:28 | <rustisafungus> | guest8080: try elm or purescript. you can auto generate elm types from haskell |
| 00:21:41 | Axman6 | mumbles something about rust absolutely not being a fungus |
| 00:21:53 | <rustisafungus> | hpc: yeah and then you can run those on the server in a vm for convenience and security, so you end up with client-on-server-on-client-on-server |
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| 00:22:18 | <Axman6> | clearly the most efficient way to do things. |
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| 00:22:57 | <guest8080> | TY everyone! I'm looking at purescript now. It looks like a nice bridge but still would require separate purescript development. I'm wondering if something like a Haskell widget package that permits the construction of the GUI on the Haskell/server-side. There would have to be event callbacks to the Haskell/server-side for GUI events |
| 00:22:58 | <guest8080> | tho. |
| 00:24:09 | <rustisafungus> | purescript is probably the better bet |
| 00:25:05 | <rustisafungus> | do you need to distribute your server side GUI across a server cluster? |
| 00:25:53 | <guest8080> | No simple simple dev test case. Entire backend (including peristence) on one machine |
| 00:26:41 | <Axman6> | I can't wait for GHC to ship with a WASM backend, being able to run apps in secure containers will be fantastic for things like GUI apps |
| 00:26:47 | <rustisafungus> | (that was a joke but gosh someone must do that, maybe faang) |
| 00:27:42 | <rustisafungus> | i can't wait for an endless stream of WASM sandbox escape CVEs lolz |
| 00:27:48 | <guest8080> | That would be nice...I could use that WASM in the browser with gRPC callbacks to the server-side |
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| 00:28:17 | <rustisafungus> | guest8080: tbh, get started with elm |
| 00:28:57 | <guest8080> | why elm rather than PS? I read somewhere elm is rather opinionated and narrower than PS. |
| 00:29:14 | <rustisafungus> | the developer experience, at least when i tried it, was exquisite, lacking only in automatic reflection |
| 00:29:30 | <rustisafungus> | just, try it, it's minimalist and nice and then branch out. for real world use PS is probably better |
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| 00:29:49 | <guest8080> | Ok, i'll check it out too. |
| 00:31:12 | <rustisafungus> | if haskell had elm-tier DX i would make happy fungus noises |
| 00:32:05 | <guest8080> | i've only experienced silent fungus so far |
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| 00:36:27 | <rustisafungus> | distributed client-on-server-on-client-on-server GUIs running in a vm are the future |
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| 00:37:14 | <Axman6> | guest8080: https://github.com/dmjio/miso/blob/master/README.md |
| 00:37:51 | <guest8080> | It's right up there with running on an emulator for a non-existent architecture. Knuth's MMIX comes to mind |
| 00:38:04 | <guest8080> | I think qemu has a MMIX emulator |
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| 00:38:23 | <rustisafungus> | oh wow knuth designed an isa |
| 00:38:44 | <guest8080> | In his spare time for just a bit of assembly language pedagogy |
| 00:39:15 | <Axman6> | MMIX has some very cool instructions in it that I wish other architectures had |
| 00:39:40 | <rustisafungus> | fpgammix -- sayeth wikipedia |
| 00:40:06 | <guest8080> | Like? I thought he basically pulled the best of everything together even if it implied inconsistent HW implementation |
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| 00:42:28 | <rustisafungus> | but i thought instructions didn't matter |
| 00:42:43 | <rustisafungus> | except they do except they dont. |
| 00:43:05 | <rustisafungus> | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEyFH-a-XoQ |
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| 00:45:18 | <guest8080> | Axman6 , I ran across MISO in my research but set it aside because GHCJS was said to horribly slow. Has it worked well for you? |
| 00:47:04 | <guest8080> | what is your fav assembly language instruction? Mine: Enforce In-order Execution of IO, a sync instruction on POWER/PowerPC: eieio |
| 00:47:14 | <rustisafungus> | properly follow proper protocols. |
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| 00:49:44 | <guest8080> | reduce unsigned short to integer |
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| 01:04:23 | <rustisafungus> | guest8080: have you tried using a quantum computer for your distributed client-on-server-on-client-on-server in a vm GUI? |
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| 01:17:35 | <Axman6> | guest8080: I haven't used it myself, but it feels like the closest to what you want. I haven't heard people saying GHCJS is particularly slow, it tends to play quite well with many JS engines IIRC |
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| 01:43:56 | <maerwald[m]> | Axman6: miso is client side |
| 01:44:02 | <maerwald[m]> | Is it not? |
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| 01:56:11 | <Axman6> | I thought it was mix of both, but no idea. it's "isomorphic" - dmj` is probably the best person to answer |
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| 02:00:19 | <maerwald[m]> | What is isomorphic? |
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| 02:02:30 | <sclv> | "isomorphic" is sometimes used to mean something entirely unlike the mathematical definition |
| 02:02:50 | <maerwald[m]> | I know |
| 02:02:56 | <sclv> | in the case of client side web programming people use it (unforgivably, i believe) to mean that the client and server code is the same language |
| 02:03:11 | <maerwald[m]> | I'm asking what is supposed to be isomorphic in this case |
| 02:03:27 | <maerwald[m]> | I don't think miso provides you with a server side framework |
| 02:04:19 | <sclv> | miso claims in its docs to be both and to be "isomorphic" in the webservice sense |
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| 02:07:05 | <maerwald[m]> | https://medium.com/airbnb-engineering/isomorphic-javascript-the-future-of-web-apps-10882b7a2ebc#.4nyzv6jea |
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| 02:13:22 | <waleee> | today apparently was the day Haskell Curry passed away |
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| 04:15:35 | <Axman6> | maerwald[m]: https://github.com/dmjio/miso/blob/master/README.md http://nerds.airbnb.com/isomorphic-javascript-future-web-apps/ |
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| 04:19:21 | <[Leary]> | So I'm discovering that type roles actually kinda suck: <https://gist.github.com/LSLeary/f136fdf7aa0b2517ded00fe493c16e04>. I don't suppose anyone has a better solution than that? I want my safe coercions back. |
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| 04:48:48 | <famubu> | I was looking at https://github.com/ghc/ghc/blob/master/libraries/ghc-prim/GHC/Types.hs#L214 |
| 04:48:57 | <famubu> | What does `I#` and `Int#` mean? |
| 04:49:11 | <famubu> | In `data {-# CTYPE "HsInt" #-} Int = I# Int#` |
| 04:49:22 | <famubu> | Do identifiers ending in `#` have special meaning? |
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| 04:52:05 | <JensPetersen[m]> | Does anyone have ghc-9.4 working with github haskell/actions/setup ? Maybe I should ask ghcup |
| 04:53:16 | <Axman6> | I# is the name of the constructor, Int# is the name of a type, which is an unlifted Int |
| 04:53:41 | <Axman6> | they are special in that they're not generally allowed, but MagicHash allows you to use them |
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| 05:07:19 | <maerwald[m]> | Jens Petersen: why not |
| 05:09:46 | <mniip> | [Leary], when I import the constructor of ReaderT, ghc is able to infer `a ~R b => ReaderT IO a ~R ReaderT IO b` |
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| 05:10:23 | <mniip> | possibly via ReaderT () IO a ~R () -> IO a ~R () -> IO b ~R ReaderT IO b |
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| 05:18:04 | <[Leary]> | mniip: That makes sense. But unfortunately, in the case that's troubling me, the constructor (the equivalent of App, rather than ReaderT) isn't exported. |
| 05:18:13 | <[Leary]> | So this approach doesn't work outside the module. |
| 05:18:34 | <mniip> | yeah in an ideal world role annotations would be dependent |
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| 05:28:10 | <JensPetersen[m]> | maerwald: sorry replied to you in #haskell-ghcup:libera.chat |
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| 06:11:01 | <famubu> | Axman6: Thanks. Got something to read up. |
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| 06:37:33 | <Axman6> | there's nothing particularly special about MagicHash, it just gives a way for the compiler devs to namespace really internal things |
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| 07:22:22 | <bbear> | there's a chapter on this unboxed types in 'haskell in depth' that is worth reading |
| 07:24:17 | <dminuoso> | Axman6: *to namespace unlifted things. At that point, I think it is particularly special. |
| 07:24:58 | <dminuoso> | Given that it's a mostly well respected convention, you can for the most part conclude that something carrying a # at the end of its name is unlifted. That makes it particularly special in my mind. |
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| 07:25:20 | <dminuoso> | It's beyond just internal, since you cant use unlifted things in a place where lifted things are expected. |
| 07:25:45 | <dminuoso> | i.e. `Maybe Int#` is not constructable |
| 07:26:22 | <bbear> | but Maybe# Int# is ? :troll: |
| 07:26:53 | <bbear> | but can it be said simply that this represent access to unboxed primitive types? |
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| 07:27:29 | <dminuoso> | unboxed or unlifted, but yes |
| 07:27:36 | <dminuoso> | As per convention, anyhow. |
| 07:27:36 | <bbear> | I don't expect this unlifted thing to live in 99% percent of haskell programs |
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| 07:27:53 | <bbear> | (I mean in the source code) |
| 07:27:56 | <dminuoso> | bbear: On the contrary, we have unlifted things in plenty of places. |
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| 07:29:36 | <dminuoso> | newtype IO a = IO (State# RealWorld -> (# State# RealWorld, a #)) |
| 07:29:48 | <dminuoso> | Every IO action is a function producing an unlifted tuple. |
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| 07:41:18 | <Axman6> | (# (#) | Int# #) ~ Maybe# Int# (can't remember what the syntax for the unboxed 0-tuple) |
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| 07:45:46 | <dminuoso> | Axman6: It's the same as 1-tuples or 2-tuples etc |
| 07:45:52 | <dminuoso> | (# Int# #) |
| 07:46:18 | <dminuoso> | :k (# Int #) |
| 07:46:20 | <lambdabot> | error: Operator applied to too few arguments: # |
| 07:46:34 | <dminuoso> | lambdabot: Shush and just enable -XUnboxedTuples! |
| 07:46:44 | dminuoso | wants yahb back |
| 07:47:29 | <[Leary]> | % putStrLn "I am reborn?" |
| 07:47:29 | <yahb2> | I am reborn? |
| 07:47:47 | <[Leary]> | Yes, you are. |
| 07:52:10 | <dminuoso> | Glory and cookies to your rescuer. |
| 07:52:40 | <[Leary]> | That would be tomsmeding. |
| 07:53:21 | <dminuoso> | I see, I guess tom's new job is adopting community services that are no longer maintained. |
| 07:53:50 | <dminuoso> | What would we do without him. :) |
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| 08:24:33 | <lortabac> | is there an easy way to enforce a specific key order when encoding with aeson? |
| 08:24:43 | <lortabac> | I mean aeson 2 |
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| 08:26:41 | <lortabac> | or at least some documented workaround |
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| 08:29:23 | <dminuoso> | lortabac: Yes, you can implement a custom toEncoding for that specific field. |
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| 08:29:59 | <dminuoso> | It's not clean, you cant use toJSON then |
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| 08:30:06 | <merijn> | Although I would instead recommend: Seriously reevaluating your life's choices leading up to wanting this... |
| 08:30:09 | <dminuoso> | But as long as the code that uses it is under your control it works |
| 08:30:42 | <lortabac> | merijn: I have good reasons |
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| 08:31:07 | <merijn> | I don't believe you, but that's between you and god :p |
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| 08:32:00 | <lortabac> | haha |
| 08:32:15 | <merijn> | Also between you and future you who will want to murder you |
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| 08:32:29 | <qrpnxz> | if the reason is "it's not up to me", then that's pretty good reason |
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| 08:33:24 | <merijn> | Agree to disagree :D |
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| 08:34:04 | <dminuoso> | lortabac: Essentially just copy and modify: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/aeson-2.1.0.0/docs/src/Data.Aeson.Encoding.Builder.html#object |
| 08:34:51 | <dminuoso> | (Wrap the thing with a newtype accordingly)_ |
| 08:35:18 | <lortabac> | dminuoso: thanks, I need to check if it's actually doable, as I don't own all the types involved |
| 08:35:39 | <lortabac> | but it seems like a good way to approach the problem |
| 08:37:36 | <lortabac> | it should be feasible with a couple of newtypes |
| 08:38:09 | OpenSource | is now known as Linux |
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| 09:21:16 | <kuribas> | is the STG documentation still relevant for x64? |
| 09:21:39 | <kuribas> | I mean this page: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/wikis/commentary/compiler/generated-code |
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| 09:24:24 | <merijn> | define "relevant"? :) |
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| 09:38:15 | <kuribas> | that it's enough to understand assembly output. |
| 09:38:25 | <kuribas> | doesn't have to match 1 to 1 |
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| 16:37:28 | <shapr> | @quote |
| 16:37:28 | <lambdabot> | x11 says: -- this assumes bytes are 8 bits. I hope X isn't more portable than that :( |
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| 17:57:15 | <gm3> | Data.Vector.replicate 10 undefined evaluates to undefined. Why is it forcing undefined? |
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| 17:58:09 | <dminuoso> | gm3: In what context did you try this? GHCi? |
| 17:58:22 | <gm3> | No, compiled program. |
| 17:58:35 | <dminuoso> | How are you using that vector? |
| 17:59:17 | <gm3> | But I was testing it with a code lens. Maybe that's the problem? |
| 17:59:32 | <dminuoso> | Quite possibly, yes. |
| 17:59:48 | <dminuoso> | If you just try this in GHCi you will observe no bottom: seq (V.replicate 10 undefined) 1 |
| 18:00:13 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: Whats the protocol to request changes to your yahb instance? I would like `vector` to be added for example |
| 18:01:12 | <dminuoso> | gm3: What exactly do you mean by code lens? Im a mildly confused because you also said this was in a compiled program. |
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| 18:16:54 | <zzz> | is implicit prelude considered a wart?? |
| 18:18:34 | <[exa]> | no why |
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| 18:21:55 | <monochrom> | Let's crank that up to eleven! |
| 18:22:34 | <monochrom> | -XIncoherentInstances exists. Therefore, instance coherenence is considered a wart. >:) |
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| 18:25:45 | <zzz> | well the only time i use Prelude is when writing a library and that's just because minimizing dependencies is good |
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| 18:26:19 | geekosaur | guesses you use it more than you think |
| 18:26:41 | <zzz> | geekosaur: sure, but i wouldn't if i could avoid it |
| 18:27:22 | <zzz> | it keeps us stuck i think |
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| 18:27:27 | <geekosaur> | huh? |
| 18:28:01 | <geekosaur> | it's filled with utility functions people use all the time? what's stuck about that? we should reinvent them all the time instead? |
| 18:28:18 | <zzz> | oh no, that;s not my point at all |
| 18:28:35 | <zzz> | of course it;s useful |
| 18:29:15 | <zzz> | but it also keeps many undesireable things around |
| 18:29:49 | <zzz> | well, i'm just bitching about nothing really... |
| 18:30:10 | <geekosaur> | if you mean String, System.IO isn't in the Prelude and has a much larger effect |
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| 18:31:11 | <geekosaur> | (if you mean String, you probably shouldn't. I have lots of little programs sitting around that use String and rarely if ever use any Strings long enough to justify Text) |
| 18:31:19 | <monochrom> | Have you used "1+1"? Then you have used Prelude. |
| 18:31:29 | <monochrom> | Have you used do-notation? Then you have used Prelude. |
| 18:31:37 | <zzz> | what's good does it do besides saving us the effort of writing `import Prelude` ? |
| 18:31:44 | <zzz> | *what |
| 18:32:16 | <monochrom> | Have you used "x == y"? Then you have used Prelude. |
| 18:32:43 | <monochrom> | Have you used "otherwise"? Then you have used Prelude. |
| 18:32:57 | <monochrom> | Have you used "Maybe"? Then you have used Prelude. |
| 18:33:25 | <monochrom> | Have you used "Bool"? Then you have used Prelude. |
| 18:33:34 | <zzz> | lol i get the point |
| 18:34:15 | <geekosaur> | let's turn that around. why should I have to do an import to get very basic stuff? |
| 18:34:29 | <geekosaur> | (as monochrom has been pointing out) |
| 18:34:30 | <monochrom> | You can always write your own "import Prelude hiding (undesirable stuff)" by your logic. |
| 18:34:45 | <zzz> | because you might prefer a Prelude alternative (as there are many) |
| 18:34:59 | <monochrom> | No, speak for yourself. |
| 18:35:03 | <geekosaur> | none of which has enough mindshare to catch on |
| 18:35:14 | <monochrom> | I unprefer all those alternatives. |
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| 18:35:21 | <geekosaur> | which is why there are so many of them: everyone's got their own notion of an ideal Prelude |
| 18:35:35 | <geekosaur> | and nobody can agree on one |
| 18:35:35 | <zzz> | right |
| 18:35:42 | <zzz> | so why an implicit one? |
| 18:35:45 | <geekosaur> | not because there's already a Prelude |
| 18:35:59 | <geekosaur> | again, why do I have to import something to get the basics? |
| 18:36:06 | <geekosaur> | this isn't Java |
| 18:36:24 | <geekosaur> | and even that implicitly gives you java.lang.whatever |
| 18:36:24 | <monochrom> | Actually Java has its equivalent of implicit prelude too IIRC. |
| 18:36:40 | <monochrom> | Yeah, that. |
| 18:36:50 | <zzz> | i'm getting the feeling i'm not the first person to contest this :p ok i get the point |
| 18:37:13 | <monochrom> | Sure, you in good company with every alternative prelude authors. |
| 18:37:21 | <monochrom> | s/you/you're/ |
| 18:37:32 | <johnw> | rolling your own prelude is a rite of passage |
| 18:38:03 | <monochrom> | But are you conflating "implicit prelude is a wart" with "the standard prelude is a wart"? |
| 18:38:21 | <johnw> | I even did so at one point, but I'm sure glad not to have to maintain it now :) |
| 18:38:48 | <monochrom> | Because surely everyone, especially the alternative prelude authors, have to think "implicit prelude is not a wart, as long as it's my prelude". |
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| 18:39:01 | <monochrom> | Because programmers are egomaniacs. |
| 18:39:06 | <zzz> | no. my point is that *any* implicit library is wart, because if in the future we find out that it contains something *really* undesireable, it's a pain to change it because "it breaks too many stuff" |
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| 18:39:35 | <geekosaur> | it still breaks things if explicitly imported |
| 18:39:42 | <johnw> | I think no size fits all, and engineering teams should evolve their own preludes specific to the applications they're building. If you're a library author, use what's standard. |
| 18:39:45 | <monochrom> | How are explicit libraries any different? |
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| 18:39:58 | <geekosaur> | it is literally no easier to remove something from an explicit prelude |
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| 18:40:19 | <monochrom> | 99% of base is non-implicit and still suffers "it's a pain to change it because "it breaks too many stuff" |
| 18:40:20 | <zzz> | geekosaur: no, legacy programs with implicit imports will continue to import the undesireable stuff, but new projects will just import UpdatedPrelude |
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| 18:40:38 | <zzz> | s/will/would |
| 18:40:57 | <monochrom> | lens suffers "it's a pain to change it because "it breaks too many stuff" |
| 18:41:00 | <zzz> | s/implicit/explicit |
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| 18:41:16 | <monochrom> | text suffers "it's a pain to change it because "it breaks too many stuff" |
| 18:41:24 | <geekosaur> | that gets you UpdatedUpdatedUpdated...UpdatedPrelude |
| 18:41:31 | <zzz> | geekosaur: yes |
| 18:41:48 | <monochrom> | The only way to win is to not write software at all. |
| 18:41:55 | <geekosaur> | I *could* see support for specifying a prelude to import, and even cabal support for that |
| 18:42:22 | <geekosaur> | but not importing anything into ghci at all completely misses the point of ghci |
| 18:42:35 | <yushyin> | geekosaur: we have that already with mixins, no? |
| 18:42:36 | <geekosaur> | and the same can be said for small utility programs |
| 18:42:50 | <geekosaur> | for the 5 people who know how to use mixins, maybe |
| 18:44:45 | <monochrom> | Let's crank that up to one hundred and twenty one. |
| 18:44:53 | <monochrom> | Is implicit GHC considered a wart? |
| 18:47:08 | <monochrom> | Hrm so I'm one of the Big Five who know how to use mixins :) |
| 18:47:33 | <johnw> | are mixins different from backpack? |
| 18:47:55 | <monochrom> | We're going be permanent members of some United Haskellers Securty Council or something I guess >:) |
| 18:48:14 | <yushyin> | johnw: it's a by-product of backpack :D |
| 18:50:24 | <yushyin> | but makes it easy to change the implicit prelude to a different one |
| 18:52:46 | <mniip> | so the story of These is that it's a coproduct in Set* and Aligned is a functor(ish) representable in Set* |
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| 18:53:00 | <mniip> | is there a story for working with higher arity coproducts in a way that doesn't suck? |
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| 18:56:25 | <mniip> | I'm looking to write a function that is vaguely of the shape (Map k v1, ..., Map k vn) -> (Map k r1, ..., Map k rm) |
| 18:56:53 | <mniip> | it would suck to go through These v1 (... (These vn-1 vn) ...) because that's exponentially many pattern cases |
| 19:00:22 | <geekosaur> | ohai! (not that I know the answer) |
| 19:01:04 | <mniip> | it's like a state machine but sideways |
| 19:02:06 | <mniip> | in reality n=4 and m=2 but that's enough to make me struggle to manage the complexity of any ad-hoc solution |
| 19:02:13 | <mniip> | (hi!) |
| 19:05:29 | <mniip> | even ignoring the v1...vn bit |
| 19:06:16 | <mniip> | is there a composable way to convert (Bool^n -> Bool^m) into ((Set k)^n -> (Set k)^m) |
| 19:06:23 | <mniip> | assuming the input function is 0-preserving |
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| 19:07:34 | <mniip> | this is the v~() version of the question and here we already run into questions like how to algebraically express the set of 0-preserving boolean functions |
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| 19:13:06 | <mniip> | no wait |
| 19:13:10 | <mniip> | These is a product |
| 19:17:10 | <mniip> | do we have tensor-hom in Set*? |
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| 19:23:31 | <mniip> | had to write that one down. Looks like Set* is not cartesian closed, so our ability to define n-ary functions by "currying" and consurming the arguments one by one -- is compromised |
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| 19:38:58 | <zzz> | oh no, <$> and == have the same priority :X |
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| 19:44:02 | <trcc> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/4pLE8NSf for some reason I only get to ("Received the filename: " <> inputFilename), which is outputted. Then the terminal acts weird afterwards. Any ideas? |
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| 19:46:41 | <geekosaur> | the first getContents reads everything up to a control-D |
| 19:46:51 | <geekosaur> | you want getLine |
| 19:47:02 | <geekosaur> | (or control-Z on windows) |
| 19:47:05 | <trcc> | ah ok |
| 19:47:06 | <trcc> | thanks |
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| 21:12:19 | <janus> | how do i set the equivalent of "profiling-detail: none" in stack.yaml? |
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| 21:36:48 | <sm> | ghc-options: something something ? |
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| 21:51:44 | <janus> | some invocations of ghc-options are only specific to the target though.. so i may need 'ghc-options: "$globals": ...' |
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All times are in UTC on 2022-09-01.