Logs on 2022-09-05 (liberachat/#haskell)
| 00:03:27 | <geekosaur> | that depends on how it's specified and what the consumer intended |
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| 00:04:00 | <geekosaur> | "what do?" is indeed a question. should it max out and stay there? throw an error? do modular arithmetic? |
| 00:04:28 | <geekosaur> | all of these would be specified by how the type was defined |
| 00:05:37 | <geekosaur> | if it's a probability distribution space or an affine space then your operation is probably a type error |
| 00:06:12 | <monochrom> | Ah the herectic stance of "type is not what data is stored, but what do you want to do with it?" |
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| 00:10:24 | <DigitalKiwi> | monochrom hasn't been upgrade to the language producer that uses typed words |
| 00:10:34 | <DigitalKiwi> | herectic == type error |
| 00:11:18 | <geekosaur> | possibly neither have you :þ |
| 00:11:26 | <monochrom> | Oh, heretic |
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| 00:12:04 | <DigitalKiwi> | i have a type for misspelled words |
| 00:12:16 | <geekosaur> | how about for mis-grammar? |
| 00:12:39 | <DigitalKiwi> | she's my type |
| 00:13:48 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://archive.org/details/RhymeTorrentsVolume1/21+-+Shael+Riley+-+Miss+Information+(Featuring+Beefy).mp3 |
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| 00:24:44 | <DigitalKiwi> | i dated an english major in college lol |
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| 02:40:45 | <drlkf> | is there a specific function/operator to bind a monadic computation to an inner monad ? like: m1 (m0 a) -> (a -> m0 b) -> m1 (m0 b) |
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| 02:44:34 | <jackdk> | :t \m f -> fmap (>>= f) m |
| 02:44:35 | <lambdabot> | (Monad m, Functor f) => f (m a) -> (a -> m b) -> f (m b) |
| 02:44:45 | <jackdk> | @pl \m f -> fmap (>>= f) m |
| 02:44:45 | <lambdabot> | flip (fmap . (=<<)) |
| 02:44:52 | <jackdk> | drlkf: I don't think so |
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| 02:53:15 | <drlkf> | actually this isn't even what i wanted to do. i'm stupid. what i'm looking for is m1 (m0 a) -> (a -> m1 b) -> m1 (m0 b) |
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| 03:25:19 | <Axman6> | I'm not sure that one is doable |
| 03:25:38 | <Axman6> | and suggests you're doing something quite strange |
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| 03:46:33 | <aaron[m]1234> | drlkf: think that would be equivalent to being able to compose monads, which you can't do in general |
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| 04:12:13 | <jackdk> | @pl \m -> (m >>=) . traverse |
| 04:12:13 | <lambdabot> | (. traverse) . (>>=) |
| 04:12:18 | <jackdk> | ehhhh |
| 04:12:53 | <jackdk> | Anyway, you need `(Monad m1, Traversable m0)` drlkf, what are you trying to do? Or maybe you're working with some commutative monads like ReaderT? |
| 04:16:03 | <jackdk> | Er, I mean `Reader`; like a distributive functor or something |
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| 04:32:10 | <Clinton[m]> | When using HLS 1.7.0.0 in VSCode, is the fact that "Go To Definition" doesn't work for definitions in the same project but a different package a result of something I've broken in my setup or just a limitation currently of HLS? |
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| 04:42:38 | <komikat> | gm |
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| 09:10:58 | <fendor[m]> | is the ghc option -pgmF run for literate haskell files as well? Docs seem to indicate, I also have to specify -pgmL for literate haskell files. https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/phases.html |
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| 09:16:23 | <dminuoso> | fendor[m]: Yes |
| 09:16:26 | <dminuoso> | https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/phases.html#options-affecting-a-haskell-pre-processor |
| 09:16:32 | <dminuoso> | ```The pre-processor is run just before the Haskell compiler proper processes the Haskell input, but after the literate markup has been stripped away and (possibly) the C pre-processor has washed the Haskell input. |
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| 09:21:05 | <fendor[m]> | ok, makes sense! thanks! |
| 09:21:15 | <int-e> | "washed", heh. |
| 09:21:17 | <fendor[m]> | just took me a minute to parse all that into my mental model |
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| 11:32:58 | <jonathanx> | I'm looking into recursion schemes for mutually recursive AST:s. I've found people recommending the libraries compdata, multirec and syntactic. |
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| 11:33:29 | <jonathanx> | I'm afraid of going with something that will stop being supported, and most discussions about these things are 5+ years old. |
| 11:33:45 | <jonathanx> | Is there any up-to-date recommended approach? |
| 11:34:05 | <jonathanx> | contex: https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/3sm1j1/how_to_mix_the_base_functorrecursion_scheme_stuff/ |
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| 11:39:33 | <byorgey> | just looking on Hackage, it seems that syntactic has had regular updates and was most recently uploaded in May of this year. The other ones haven't been updated as recently (though it's very possible they haven't needed any). |
| 11:41:35 | <byorgey> | multirec is specifically created to support mutually recursive data types. Not sure about the others. |
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| 12:20:47 | <Guest95> | In many programming languages an array grows automatically if there is an insert into a full array. Are there Array/Vector/STArray alternatives that do this? |
| 12:21:41 | <merijn> | Guest95: Not that I know? Then again, using that functionality is generally discouraged in most languages if you care about performance :) |
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| 12:23:06 | <Guest95> | If you realize that your Vector or STArray is full do you allocate a new one and then simply concat with the old? |
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| 12:24:17 | <merijn> | Guest95: That, or you can use generate and populate it with values from the old one. It kinda depends on the code/algorithm, etc. |
| 12:24:28 | <hpc> | perhaps https://hackage.haskell.org/package/containers-0.6.6/docs/Data-Sequence.html |
| 12:24:37 | <[exa]> | Guest95: if you rely on growing the data regularly, you might be better off with Data.Sequence |
| 12:24:38 | <merijn> | oh, right, sequence is a thing |
| 12:25:08 | <merijn> | I normally just use lists, because Sequence is in a weird spot where either a problem is simple enough for lists or I just need Vectors :p |
| 12:26:54 | <Guest95> | Sequence looks interesting. Thank you. |
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| 12:29:09 | <akegalj> | I was positively surprised how good performance Sequence has. I didn't measure it (except for a problem at hand) but it was faster then my adhoc implementation of queue using mutable vectors |
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| 12:42:29 | <Guest95> | merjin: If you wanted to implement a data structure where you have many inserts and those inserts need index calculations what would you choose? |
| 12:44:33 | <Guest95> | lists are bad because of the index calculations. Vector is also bad because of O(n+m) inserts. |
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| 12:47:11 | <merijn> | Guest95: I've actually used IntMap for that quite a bit |
| 12:47:41 | <tdammers> | in-memory sqlite XD |
| 12:47:52 | <merijn> | tdammers: If the size gets big enough, sure :) |
| 12:48:05 | <merijn> | tdammers: Or maybe DuckDB, depending on what you're doing :p |
| 12:48:25 | <Guest95> | merjin: I was about to say maybe a hash map but IntMap is probably what I want: A hash map with Int keys? |
| 12:48:45 | <[exa]> | Guest95: Seq has pretty good O(log(n)) for indexing and almost-O(1) on most operations on ends |
| 12:49:16 | <merijn> | Guest95: yes |
| 12:49:55 | <merijn> | Guest95: *Hash* maps aren't super in fashion in Haskell, but Map and IntMap from containers are |
| 12:50:23 | <Guest95> | What is wrong with hash maps? |
| 12:50:45 | <[exa]> | hashing. |
| 12:50:50 | <merijn> | Guest95: They're overrated |
| 12:51:01 | <merijn> | Worst case complexity and memory usage are both kinda meh |
| 12:51:48 | <merijn> | Most dynamic languages use hash maps as default map implementation, leading people to conflate "map" and "hash map", there's non-hash maps that have perfectly fine performance for >90% of uses for maps :) |
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| 12:52:16 | <Guest95> | exa: Seq seems really interesting. Why is hashing a problem? Because it adds a constraint? |
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| 12:52:43 | <tdammers> | a more general concern with hashmaps is HashDoS |
| 12:53:15 | <tdammers> | or, more generally, their ability to degrade to abysmal performance when the keys happen to produce a lot of hash collisions |
| 12:53:42 | <merijn> | Hashing has a cost, coming up with good hashes for a datatype is hard, bad hashes lead to terrible performance, etc. |
| 12:53:48 | <[exa]> | Guest95: hashing algorithms depend on having a hash table with frequent tiny operations which is....a vector |
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| 12:54:03 | <[exa]> | so it kinda inherits all the pesky vector problems |
| 12:54:22 | <[exa]> | Haskell hashmaps have fixed tremendous amounts of it but I'm still more of a tree-ish person. :D |
| 12:55:01 | <[exa]> | but I'd say it makes a pretty good sense for e.g. string indexes |
| 12:55:18 | <merijn> | Guest95: The "Map" in containers uses a balanced binary search tree (I think it's using AVL trees?). Which means slightly different complexity, but lookup is still only "O(log n)" which for most reasonable number of keys is basically as fast as hashing (I've had maps with >10k keys and was just fine) |
| 12:55:45 | <Guest95> | exa: merjin: When you are using trees and get away with good enough performance are those base 2 trees (binary trees) or do they have a large base? |
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| 12:55:54 | <Guest95> | you just answered my question |
| 12:55:56 | <merijn> | Guest95: Additionally, binary search trees give you some other cool features that are impossible with hash maps, such as: approximate lookup (i.e. "what is the key in the map that is *closest* to the key I have) |
| 12:56:25 | <merijn> | You can also do things like lookup the smallest/biggest key in the Map. Which can be super useful for some algorithms |
| 12:57:02 | <merijn> | Guest95: Note that Haskell isn't unique in this, for example C++'s std::map also uses a binary search tree implementation |
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| 12:57:46 | <merijn> | You need to use std::unordered_map to get a hash map in C++ (kinda equivalent to using HashMap from unordered-containers package in haskell) |
| 12:58:16 | <Guest95> | I think closure also has a data structure in the standard lib that is base on trees with a large base (don't know if this is the right word). |
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| 12:58:27 | <merijn> | Guest95: In reality: Map should be more than fast enough for, like, 95% of usecases, so I'd personally default to using Map and only use HashMap if you have specific reasons/performance problems |
| 12:59:04 | <Guest95> | *Clojure |
| 12:59:18 | <merijn> | IntMap is a specialisation (using PATRICIA trees) for integer keys that guarantees even more efficient lookup/insert |
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| 13:00:52 | <Guest95> | Another beginner question: If I use IntMap as underlying data structure for my data structure should I use the strict or the lazy version? |
| 13:01:28 | <Guest95> | I have read "strict products, lazy sums" but that doesn't apply here |
| 13:02:05 | <merijn> | Guest95: So the strictness refers to the values inside it. (The map/keys themselves are always strict) |
| 13:03:09 | <Guest95> | So if I'm sure that I want to consume most of the values in my data structure I would use the strict version? |
| 13:03:11 | <merijn> | Guest95: My heuristic is: If keys are "small" (i.e. ints, floats, etc.) OR I will always use (nearly) all of the values in my program *THEN* I use strict (since small values are cheap to store and if you are gonna force all values, might as well force them on insert) |
| 13:03:38 | <merijn> | eh s/keys/values |
| 13:04:20 | <merijn> | If values are large AND I'm gonna only use a handful of them, then I will use lazy (because no pointing in evaluating every value if you're gonna only use a few) |
| 13:04:37 | <Guest95> | makes sense |
| 13:04:37 | <merijn> | Or whenever I do recursive shenanigans on the Map, then you also need to use a lazy Map |
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| 17:26:44 | <analoq> | why does `<-` not have a type? i.e. `:t (<-)` throws an error |
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| 17:30:23 | <Clint> | analoq: because it's syntactic sugar |
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| 17:32:26 | <analoq> | that makes sense. i cant :t do either, but :t >>= works |
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| 17:50:13 | <dolio> | (>>=) is a function, not a fragment of syntax. |
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| 18:33:36 | <Guest95> | @help |
| 18:33:36 | <lambdabot> | help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands |
| 18:33:55 | <Guest95> | @help list |
| 18:33:55 | <lambdabot> | list [module|command]. Show commands for [module] or the module providing [command]. |
| 18:34:15 | <Guest95> | @list |
| 18:34:15 | <lambdabot> | What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas. |
| 18:34:28 | <Guest95> | @help pl |
| 18:34:29 | <lambdabot> | pointless <expr>. Play with pointfree code. |
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| 18:36:13 | <Guest95> | Player-205[m] \x y -> x + 1 |
| 18:36:27 | → | matthewmosior joins (~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) |
| 18:36:38 | <Guest95> | pl y -> x + 1 |
| 18:36:51 | <Guest95> | @pl y -> x + 1 |
| 18:36:51 | <lambdabot> | (line 1, column 5): |
| 18:36:51 | <lambdabot> | unexpected '>' |
| 18:36:51 | <lambdabot> | expecting operator |
| 18:37:08 | <Guest95> | @pl \y -> x + 1 |
| 18:37:08 | <lambdabot> | const (x + 1) |
| 18:37:16 | <Guest95> | @pl \x -> x + 1 |
| 18:37:16 | <lambdabot> | (1 +) |
| 18:37:55 | <Guest95> | @pl \x y z -> f x (g y z) |
| 18:37:55 | <lambdabot> | (. g) . (.) . f |
| 18:38:34 | <Guest95> | @pl \x y -> f x (g y) |
| 18:38:34 | <lambdabot> | const . flip f (g y) |
| 18:39:29 | <Guest95> | @pl \x y -> f x (g x) |
| 18:39:29 | <lambdabot> | const . ap f g |
| 18:40:01 | <Guest95> | @pl \x -> f x (g x) |
| 18:40:01 | <lambdabot> | const (f x (g x)) |
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| 18:40:45 | <Guest95> | @pl \x y z -> f (g x y z) |
| 18:40:45 | <lambdabot> | ((f .) .) . g |
| 18:41:11 | × | Lord_of_Life quits (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 18:41:11 | <Guest95> | @pl \x y -> f (g x y) |
| 18:41:12 | <lambdabot> | (f .) . g |
| 18:41:27 | <[Leary]> | Guest95: Perhaps take this to private chat? |
| 18:43:07 | Lord_of_Life_ | is now known as Lord_of_Life |
| 18:44:12 | <tomsmeding> | maerwald: if I am fine with requiring that all paths handled by my application are fully ASCII, can I do without AFPP? |
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| 19:10:22 | <byorgey> | wait, what? |
| 19:10:26 | <byorgey> | @pl \x -> f x (g x) |
| 19:10:26 | <lambdabot> | const (f x (g x)) |
| 19:11:26 | <hpc> | is there a unicode x in there i am not seeing? |
| 19:11:33 | <byorgey> | oh, there is a nonbreaking space after the x |
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| 19:11:41 | <byorgey> | @pl \x -> f x (g x) |
| 19:11:41 | <lambdabot> | ap f g |
| 19:11:44 | <byorgey> | that's better |
| 19:12:12 | <hpc> | @pl \x -> x |
| 19:12:13 | <lambdabot> | id |
| 19:12:22 | <hpc> | hmm |
| 19:12:29 | <hpc> | ah |
| 19:12:45 | <byorgey> | @pl \x -> x |
| 19:12:45 | <lambdabot> | const x |
| 19:13:03 | <byorgey> | good way to confuse newbies |
| 19:13:39 | <Rembane> | Is there a SKI somewhere here? |
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| 19:14:51 | <byorgey> | Rembane: yes, S = ap, K = const, I = id. |
| 19:15:21 | <Rembane> | byorgey: Sweet! :D |
| 19:15:41 | <byorgey> | The algorithm to convert lambda calculus expressions to SKI combinators is exactly what @pl uses, plus some other stuff |
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| 19:17:07 | <Rembane> | Oh, I didn't know that. That makes it even better. |
| 19:20:04 | <byorgey> | or I guess I should say it uses a variant of that algorithm which can also output other combinators, including flip and (.) |
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| 20:20:11 | <__monty__> | tomsmeding: Is Windows a concern? I don't think ASCII is a valid subset of WTF-16? |
| 20:21:10 | <tomsmeding> | __monty__: I'm also okay with requiring linux and LC_ALL=en_US.UTF-8 :p |
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| 22:13:00 | <drlkf> | jackdk: i have some IO (Either e a) which I want to pass through (a -> IO b) [well, in reality it's (a -> IO a) but same thing] |
| 22:13:43 | <drlkf> | i could very well pattern match but i feel like this particular thing is the key to understanding something important |
| 22:15:45 | <lyxia> | traverse |
| 22:16:23 | <c_wraith> | drlkf: f :: a -> IO b, traverse f :: Either e a -> IO (Either e b) |
| 22:16:59 | <lyxia> | pattern matching is still a pretty good choice |
| 22:17:09 | <jackdk> | drlkf: if you have a common `e` through several of your actions, then I'd consider using `ExceptT e IO` as your monad and then you can `lift` or `liftIO` the returned `IO b`. If you only have the one action returning `Either` then I would try one of: `traverse`; write out the `case` expression; `>>= \case` (using `{-# LANGUAGE LambdaCase #-}`); or `>>= either doSomethingWithE doSomethingWIthA` |
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| 22:27:10 | <drlkf> | hm, ok i guess i overthought this then |
| 22:27:26 | <drlkf> | thanks jackdk lyxia c_wraith |
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