Logs on 2022-09-08 (liberachat/#haskell)
| 00:00:18 | <Guest9068> | thank you so much ;-; |
| 00:01:29 | <jackdk> | Guest9068: yes but function calls do not use brackets that way - `showRank (rank card)` is idiomatic - this becomes important when you start considering partial application, etc |
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| 00:03:46 | <geekosaur> | I already said that but I'm not sure they understood 😕 |
| 00:04:18 | <Guest9068> | oh okay, i removed them earlier and got an error, but i mustve done something wrong, tried it again just now and it worked |
| 00:05:17 | <geekosaur> | don't remove all of them. showRank still needs them because you want to pass `rank card` to it, not separately `rank` and `card`. remember that Haskell is a functional language; passing a function as a parameter can make sense |
| 00:05:38 | <geekosaur> | it's just wrong here, we want to pass the result of applying a function instead so we need the parentheses there |
| 00:06:12 | <Guest9068> | yeah, like showRank(rank card) |
| 00:06:19 | <geekosaur> | it doesn't matter for `rank card` because `card` is not itself a function application |
| 00:06:57 | <geekosaur> | and we'd have a space between `showRank` and the open parenthesis |
| 00:07:04 | <geekosaur> | as jackdk showed |
| 00:07:23 | <geekosaur> | parentheses aren't part of the syntax for calling functions, theyre part of |
| 00:07:27 | <geekosaur> | expressions |
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| 07:12:24 | <bahamas> | hello. I'm seeing some unexpected behavior in a function and I wonder if you could shed some light. this is the function https://bpa.st/NCPA and this is output that it generates https://bpa.st/KLPA |
| 07:13:10 | <bahamas> | if you notice, the last `span` has the `class` attribute twice. I would have expected that it first concatenated `textSize` to the string and treat that as one string |
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| 07:30:38 | <Axman6> | what is the type of textSize? |
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| 07:32:27 | <bahamas> | Axman6: are you asking whether it's String or Text? |
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| 07:33:55 | <bahamas> | Axman6: this is the type of `H.span` H.span |
| 07:33:55 | <bahamas> | :: [(Data.Text.Internal.Text, H.Prop m a)] |
| 07:33:56 | <bahamas> | -> [H.Html m a] -> H.Html m a |
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| 07:37:40 | <tdammers> | So the first argument to H.span is a list of pairs of names to property values, and naturally, its monoidal append operation (<>) is list concatenation. Blaze makes it look like a string by providing an IsString instance, and it looks like you have enabled the OverloadedStrings extension, which means that GHC will automatically convert your string literals to whatever type is demanded, via its |
| 07:37:42 | <tdammers> | IsString instance |
| 07:37:58 | <tdammers> | so while "block md:hidden" looks like a string, it really is not |
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| 07:39:03 | <tdammers> | wait, this isn't blaze... blaze uses the (!) combinator to add attributes |
| 07:41:23 | <bahamas> | tdammers: this is a library called shpadoinkle. but maybe it's doing the same thing as blaze |
| 07:42:55 | <bahamas> | so even though I expect string concatenation, it's actually treating the two string as two values from which to generate `class` attributes, if I understood your explanation |
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| 07:43:42 | <Axman6> | it's using the OverloadedStrings extension |
| 07:44:47 | <Hecate> | bahamas: sorry for saying this but you should really be using Lucid instead :) |
| 07:46:05 | <bahamas> | Hecate: I'll write down your suggestion and maybe I'll be able to put it into practice. this library was chosen before I started working on this project |
| 07:46:54 | <Hecate> | bahamas: hence me being sorry, I know it's not always up to someone :) |
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| 08:04:44 | <dminuoso> | Enabling CPP alters the behavior of this function: https://gist.github.com/dminuoso/fb291c4edd29dda6f114b5571c73d436 |
| 08:05:05 | <dminuoso> | Am I going crazy, or does foldCase_ have some silly bug that gets randomly triggered if CPP is enabled? |
| 08:05:10 | <dminuoso> | Or is this an actual GHC bug? |
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| 08:09:16 | <Athas> | dminuoso: my guess is that CPP processes the \ at the end of lines, and has different behaviour than GHC. |
| 08:09:27 | <Athas> | Shot in the dark: CPP preserves the leading whitespace on the following lines. |
| 08:09:38 | <dminuoso> | Oh gosh.. |
| 08:10:06 | <Athas> | This stuff is why GHC using CPP is a tragic misdesign that should never have happened. |
| 08:10:28 | <Athas> | CPP does different things (C tokenisation rules) and more things (this shit) than what it's really intended for in Haskell. |
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| 08:11:28 | <dminuoso> | Mmm, why would CPP do this.. :( |
| 08:11:41 | <dminuoso> | But oh well, I guess I can just move this code into a different module that does not have CPP enabled |
| 08:11:49 | <Athas> | CPP is where the trailing backslash behaviour is implemented. |
| 08:12:02 | <Athas> | And yes, running 'cpp' manually shows that it preserves the whitespace on the following lines. |
| 08:12:21 | <Athas> | Well, for _C_, the preprocessor is where the trailing backslash is implemented. For Haskell, it's somewhere else. |
| 08:12:28 | <Athas> | But you get both! |
| 08:13:20 | <dminuoso> | Well, this is one hell of a surprising feature I must say. I stared in disbelief when my test suite failed after just enabling CPP.. |
| 08:13:41 | <Athas> | CPP was a mistake. |
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| 08:15:45 | <dminuoso> | Do you have a better solution for how to deal with supporting multiple library versions? |
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| 08:16:03 | <dminuoso> | Duplicated modules, and picking them in cabal maybe? |
| 08:16:42 | <Athas> | I have lots of extremist opinions on this, perhaps because I've never had to actually maintain backwards compatibility with lots of versions. |
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| 08:17:11 | <Athas> | But yes, I would use the build system. Define compability layers consisting of duplicate modules. |
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| 08:17:19 | <Athas> | I have no idea whether this plan would survive contact with the enemy. |
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| 08:26:53 | <dminuoso> | Unrelated, if I relax bytestring to allow for `bytestring ^>= { 0.10.0, 0.11.0 }`, cabal will still pick 0.10.12.1, instead of 0.11.3.1. Does cabal have a preference over boot library versions that I cant find documentation for? |
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| 08:27:16 | <dminuoso> | (If I just specify ^>= 0.11.0 it picks 0.11.3.1 just fine) |
| 08:29:51 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: what happens if you write { 0.11.0, 0.10.0 } |
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| 08:31:39 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: Same behavior. Also same if I just write >= 0.10.0 |
| 08:32:07 | <tomsmeding> | was worth a try :p |
| 08:32:33 | <dminuoso> | Yes, I did try this before too. :) |
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| 09:14:30 | <Hecate> | tomjaguarpaw: I amended by Discourse post :) |
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| 09:35:20 | <tdammers> | bahamas: https://shpadoinkle.org/html/Shpadoinkle-Html.html#t:Prop shows an IsString instance for `[(Text, Prop m a)]` |
| 09:36:12 | <tdammers> | so each of your string literals there expands into [("class", "...")], and obviously if you then use <> to concatenate them, you get multiple class attributes, rather than a single class attribute with the values concatenated |
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| 09:45:24 | <bahamas> | tdammers: thanks! |
| 09:45:38 | <tdammers> | IMO that IsString instance wasn't such a great design decision btw |
| 09:46:06 | <bahamas> | tdammers: that's what I wanted to say. it breaks the expectation that `<>` concatenates 2 strings |
| 09:46:14 | <tdammers> | exactly |
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| 09:46:43 | <bahamas> | thanks for clarifying and for digging for the explanation |
| 09:47:06 | <tdammers> | I'm not sure whether it's documented as a typeclass law for IsString, but the expectation would be that fromString (a <> b) === fromString a <> fromString b |
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| 10:14:30 | <ph88> | Hey guys, i am using streamly and i have this code which works https://bpa.st/4D3A just that it doesn't run in parallel. How can i make it run parallely ? i am trying to read hundreds of files and write results about them into a 1 or 2 files |
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| 10:47:31 | × | arahael quits (~arahael@14-200-135-92.tpgi.com.au) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
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| 10:49:58 | <ph88> | is it maybe because i was using a normal map instead of streamly map ? |
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| 10:57:45 | ← | jakalx parts (~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) (Error from remote client) |
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| 12:22:58 | <sylvo> | :) |
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| 13:55:41 | <tomsmeding> | maerwald: ghcup tui is not a thing on windows? Or am I doing something wrong? |
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| 13:57:51 | <ph88> | I run these commands: stack clean && stack build --ghc-options="-eventlog -threaded" && stack exec – myprogram +RTS -l And i get while executing: the flag -l requires the program to be built with -eventlog, -prof or -debug .. what do i need to do to analyse my stack program with threadscope ? |
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| 17:29:54 | <guyst> | hi, i have been working on machine learning in haskell. |
| 17:30:16 | <guyst> | previously i have used python using tensorflow, pandas, and pytorch |
| 17:30:38 | <guyst> | i would like to undertake a machine learning project within haskell |
| 17:31:11 | <guyst> | as i understand it, python is not a good tool for scientific education (i had to use it as part of my chemistry phd, and struggled with runtime errors) |
| 17:31:52 | <guyst> | im also aware that the haskell machine lerning infrastructure is not yet sufficient for it to reasonably be suggested to use haskell over python in such situations |
| 17:32:12 | <guyst> | this is not something i can change without support from the haskell community, so I'm asking here |
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| 17:35:53 | <guyst> | specifically, im wondering what tools would be needed for the haskell community to develop, in order that haskell become competative with python for use in scientific education |
| 17:36:15 | <guyst> | and also what community resources exist to aid with such an undertaking |
| 17:36:55 | <guyst> | from what i can tell, all the major things like tensorflow are ported |
| 17:37:26 | <guyst> | but im not familiar enough with the python "workflow" to understand which bits of infrastructure haskell is lacking |
| 17:38:01 | <guyst> | (personally, i write type safe nets and training routines in pure haskell when i need them, but i suppose this isnt normally an option) |
| 17:38:32 | <guyst> | has anyone got any ideas along those lines? |
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| 17:46:24 | <ph88> | guyst, i think first thing that is lacking are the tutorials |
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| 17:51:45 | <monochrom> | I may actually think that the haskell workflow does not need to follow the python workflow, so you are not missing anything. |
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| 17:52:03 | <Athas> | guyst: I think one challenge is that it is not clear Haskell has much advantage compared to Python in this domain. |
| 17:52:03 | <monochrom> | But I don't do machine learning, my opinion on this is worth 0. |
| 17:52:25 | <Athas> | Haskell is great for dealing with complicated data structures. Deep learning, at least, does not have any of that. |
| 17:52:42 | <monochrom> | Athas, I think that guyst is unhappy with python untypedness, in which case haskell is an attraction. |
| 17:53:16 | <monochrom> | Then again Fortran could do just fine too, heh. |
| 17:53:34 | <Athas> | monochrom: at least for deep learning, the most annoying type errors are mismatched array sizes. You can encode that stuff in the Haskell type system, but it's not very pleasant IMO. |
| 17:54:16 | <monochrom> | OK yeah that's true, haskell is not prettier here. Just uglyly doable. |
| 17:54:22 | <[exa]> | guyst: one of the problems with ML and haskell is that people who're not really interested in learning to program would have to invest time into learning to program |
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| 17:55:13 | <monochrom> | Ugh does that mean that they want the machine to learn programming so they don't have to? >:) |
| 17:55:41 | <[exa]> | guyst: for the others there are actually pretty nice solutions around, e.g. this https://hackage.haskell.org/package/grenade |
| 17:56:44 | <[exa]> | monochrom: sad story, right? |
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| 17:57:55 | <[exa]> | anyway it is technically true, if you want to do ML you want to organize your neural net or somthing and feed it datas, _not_ try to spend a month finding a monad tutorial that breaks the curse. :] |
| 17:58:11 | <monochrom> | All I know about python is that 3Blue1Brown ditched python for julia so I recommend any current or prospective python users to follow suit >:) |
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| 17:58:35 | <[exa]> | yeah actually I did the same for most of the dirty sci-scripting. :] |
| 17:58:59 | <monochrom> | And julia actually has an interesting subtyping system. |
| 17:59:34 | <monochrom> | I forgot whether it's static or dynamic, but it's interesting and useful even for a dynamic one. |
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| 18:00:18 | <[exa]> | it's a weird combo of static and dynamic |
| 18:00:31 | <[exa]> | but it's veeeeeery practical |
| 18:01:25 | <ph88> | hey guys, now that you are here ... any idea how to get -eventlog going with stack ? i want to use threadscope |
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| 18:02:34 | <guyst> | Athas: i tried to use python in a workshop. it wasted all the time in the workshop. i wouldnt have had length errors i couldnt find in time, had i been using haskell |
| 18:04:54 | <Athas> | Maybe. You never have problems with the tool you didn't use. |
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| 18:12:23 | <[exa]> | guyst: try julia tbh :] |
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| 18:14:47 | <[exa]> | guyst: anyway I guess there could be many libs for haskell that just do precisely the thing that you need. This "array bookkeeping" and the possibilities are typically not a property of the used programming language, but a property of how much time was invested to make the libraries error-prone. |
| 18:16:22 | <monochrom> | Haha, I thought I was the only one who invest time to make anything error-prone, i.e., I make my homeworks and exams error-prone to keep the class average low... |
| 18:16:54 | <[exa]> | oh noes |
| 18:16:58 | <[exa]> | error-proof |
| 18:17:00 | <monochrom> | hehehe |
| 18:17:08 | <[exa]> | the keys are so close |
| 18:18:01 | <monochrom> | I am particularly devious in that though. |
| 18:18:47 | <monochrom> | For example I include a question like "re-implement this recursive function by an application of foldr". |
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| 18:19:26 | <monochrom> | The best way to answer such a question is to just look at the code structure and extract the foldr pattern. |
| 18:19:45 | <monochrom> | The worst way is to try to understand the function. |
| 18:20:49 | <monochrom> | And I have a part (a) to ask "what does this function do?" to trick students into understanding the function! |
| 18:22:48 | <guyst> | " how much time was invested to make the libraries error-prone." lol |
| 18:23:08 | <guyst> | error-prof more like |
| 18:23:23 | <int-e> | monochrom: f x == foldr (const f) x [undefined] |
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| 18:24:09 | <guyst> | :t ((tanh . sum) .) . zipWith (*) |
| 18:24:10 | <lambdabot> | Floating c => [c] -> [c] -> c |
| 18:24:23 | <guyst> | where are the peripherals!! |
| 18:24:37 | <int-e> | on the boundary |
| 18:24:55 | <guyst> | zipWith is lazy, it will still produce *some* numbers... |
| 18:25:02 | <monochrom> | int-e: I sometimes include a "don't use your own recursion" clause. |
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| 18:25:52 | <guyst> | dont cheat! |
| 18:26:11 | <monochrom> | zipWith is so lazy, it won't produce some numbers until you provide some numbers. |
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| 18:26:23 | <guyst> | i just mean if the boundaries dont match up |
| 18:26:31 | <guyst> | sure the net will be totally wrong, but whatever |
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| 18:27:04 | <guyst> | so then i do some type safe length checking (should out to grenade above) |
| 18:27:13 | <guyst> | and then im like "whats up with python anyway" |
| 18:27:23 | <guyst> | people needing IDE's apparently |
| 18:27:38 | <guyst> | shout* |
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| 19:26:02 | <qrpnxz> | i think some times haskell gets a bad rep for inscrutable operators, but they are only inscrutable until you learn them. On the flip side without them, or at least infix ticks, applicative, monad, monoid, would always be a mess. Therefore I find paren-free function application and infix notation and operators, to be a key feature, not just a minor syntactical difference. I think other languages |
| 19:26:04 | <qrpnxz> | could express things like applicative, although not equivalently to haskell type class, but rather close, but because of the syntax alone it would be highly discouraged. |
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| 19:34:39 | <guyst> | cf. first class functions re infix function arrows |
| 19:35:23 | <guyst> | people not sure about burritos, also |
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| 19:35:56 | <guyst> | templates can do polymorphic class like stuff almost iiuc |
| 19:36:11 | <guyst> | and the C coders hate it |
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| 20:08:24 | <dolio> | Yeah, it doesn't really make much sense when you think about it. Programmers at large just have a lot of arbitrary biases about what they're willing to learn. |
| 20:08:58 | <dolio> | You can go overboard with operators, but that applies to anything. |
| 20:09:13 | <Rembane> | I guess that's one of the woes of only learning languages from one family of languages. |
| 20:10:42 | <guyst> | i think its more of a momentum thing, but like a specific kind which is hard to describe to do with fatalistic acceptance and the perpetuation of mistruth |
| 20:10:57 | <guyst> | "haskell is slow" or whatever |
| 20:11:01 | <guyst> | which i havent heard in ages |
| 20:11:17 | <guyst> | since it became like blisteringly fast and nobody could challenge it on that anymore! |
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| 20:11:31 | <guyst> | *sings* i did the benchmarks, i didnt the benchmarks |
| 20:11:43 | <dolio> | "Haskell is slow" has never made much sense given what people actually use. |
| 20:11:44 | <guyst> | hey, who put that there |
| 20:12:15 | <guyst> | dolio: right, but it used to be something youd have to say something like that to argue for |
| 20:12:40 | <guyst> | but like, there are newer ones |
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| 20:12:48 | <guyst> | "dont you use notepad" |
| 20:12:54 | × | gmg quits (~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 20:13:13 | <guyst> | well, wordpad, but now notepad has an undo history longer than 1! |
| 20:13:32 | <guyst> | "those constraints are ugly" |
| 20:13:36 | <dolio> | People still say Java is slow like it's the late 90s or something. |
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| 20:13:40 | <guyst> | yeah, but what to do about it. |
| 20:14:17 | <guyst> | man, all this talk of java is making me horney, id better have some caffine |
| 20:14:48 | <guyst> | i think it kind of reminds me of acid for some reason. but i stopped drinking coffee |
| 20:15:20 | <guyst> | i liked java |
| 20:15:23 | <guyst> | nice objects |
| 20:16:11 | <guyst> | i bought 4 boxes of proplus today, i hope i dont die |
| 20:16:17 | <guyst> | bloody typesystem |
| 20:17:12 | <guyst> | my keyboard melts as i fail to express typelevel lexers in cyrilic, and the political fallout is catastrophic |
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| 20:26:43 | <guyst> | who do you have to talk to to get anything *done* around here? |
| 20:27:01 | <guyst> | all i seem to have been able to arrange is a python workshop |
| 20:27:11 | <guyst> | like, pretty much the exact opposite of the intension |
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| 20:28:06 | <geekosaur> | we're not the ones who know what's missing… |
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| 20:28:42 | <guyst> | just like, start using lambda expressions in public discourse, assume haskell is everyones first language from birth, and then... not make the mistake of "trying to do people a favour by teaching them python instead of haskell" |
| 20:28:59 | × | mastarija quits (~mastarija@46.188.135.255) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 20:29:40 | <geekosaur> | you're also fighting things like GvR and his cadre popularizing Python specifically as a first language |
| 20:29:57 | <guyst> | encore with the python |
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| 20:30:55 | <guyst> | cadre, according to google, that interjects my python search with "cadre: military unit responsible for training the rest of the unit" |
| 20:31:08 | <guyst> | "stop being bellends" |
| 20:31:14 | <guyst> | ... no working |
| 20:32:00 | <guyst> | "more overt leadership" ? really ? |
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| 20:34:03 | <guyst> | ok, here we go; https://arxiv.org/abs/2202.08557 |
| 20:34:23 | <guyst> | no... |
| 20:34:37 | <guyst> | not some obscure chinese paper on urban traffic flow |
| 20:34:40 | geekosaur | wonders what that has to do with anything |
| 20:34:45 | <guyst> | sorry |
| 20:34:59 | <geekosaur> | the cadre is out to train new programmers to use and advocate python |
| 20:35:12 | <geekosaur> | seems like a valid use to me |
| 20:35:17 | <guyst> | im trying to find these apparently zeit-geist setting gateways to death by python |
| 20:35:50 | <guyst> | i can see liliputians entering the picture at any minute |
| 20:36:23 | <guyst> | oh GVR is a dude |
| 20:36:27 | <guyst> | ok, so |
| 20:36:34 | <guyst> | one person that works at google!? |
| 20:36:41 | <guyst> | seems like an easy target |
| 20:36:46 | <guyst> | argh! |
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| 20:37:21 | <guyst> | stop wasting my time with this shit |
| 20:37:23 | <guyst> | sorry... |
| 20:37:30 | <guyst> | its quite funny |
| 20:37:33 | <guyst> | anyway |
| 20:37:35 | <geekosaur> | what |
| 20:37:36 | <guyst> | ... |
| 20:37:47 | <guyst> | i dont really care who GvR is, maybe i should |
| 20:37:49 | <guyst> | idk |
| 20:38:03 | <geekosaur> | he's the developer and chief advocate for python |
| 20:38:09 | <geekosaur> | and directpr of its development |
| 20:38:18 | <guyst> | so what im supposed to bang on his office and yell at him!? |
| 20:38:31 | <guyst> | "what are you doing to people!?" |
| 20:39:09 | <guyst> | to be fair, id imagine some people in the depths of typechecking arriving at a similar despair |
| 20:39:24 | <guyst> | i could ask the ghc team for more lighthearted error messages |
| 20:40:15 | <guyst> | yeah, ok well we already spoke about the thing with the scripting langauge for FFI |
| 20:40:26 | <guyst> | "nobody can be bothered" was the conclusion |
| 20:40:49 | <guyst> | "up to your end to have at least one pythoner to do the port" |
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| 20:41:19 | <guyst> | i think we need more haskellers... |
| 20:41:58 | <guyst> | but like, to do python ports!? isnt there compensation for a reality this cruel? oh their is!? its also quite cruel!?!? |
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| 20:44:01 | <guyst> | at what point can we just get the AI to do it? |
| 20:44:35 | <guyst> | "an ai for porting python projects to haskell, the last depths of pathos by guyst" |
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| 20:45:41 | <hippoid> | i know what a monad is, but i dont know what a burrito is. help? |
| 20:46:13 | <tdammers> | a burrito is just an endofunctor in the category of mexican food, what's the problem |
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| 20:47:15 | <hippoid> | lol |
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| 20:53:59 | <guyst> | idk why i find working on irc so f*** stressful |
| 20:54:13 | <guyst> | the ML ports for haskell seem to be in decent order |
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| 20:55:12 | <guyst> | he sais, with a sideways glance to the box of proplus grubily discarded on the desk beside |
| 20:55:23 | <guyst> | and goes to eat more! |
| 20:55:41 | <guyst> | Right! what else needs Done!? |
| 20:55:44 | <guyst> | oh, all my work |
| 20:55:51 | <guyst> | ok, legit procrastination |
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| 20:56:37 | <guyst> | ok, right, yeah, that was the only decent myth we have is that apprently people dont know what a monad is |
| 20:56:45 | <guyst> | which is a sneaky provocation |
| 20:56:48 | <guyst> | if anything |
| 20:56:56 | <guyst> | nay a reason people dont learn haskell |
| 20:57:29 | <guyst> | but then all they learn is that its a burrito and thats all they know about haskell |
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| 20:57:57 | <guyst> | "burritos are like joining lists together inside another list" |
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| 20:58:12 | <guyst> | only they are really deep etc. |
| 20:58:36 | <guyst> | and then you get monads for free, and a Wadler reference |
| 20:58:46 | <guyst> | and then you actually look like a good TA |
| 20:59:01 | <guyst> | and then your totally retarded and get fired |
| 20:59:25 | <guyst> | "this is an institution of good repute!" |
| 20:59:37 | <guyst> | oh, yeah, "head?" |
| 20:59:53 | <guyst> | do you ed-in-bruV |
| 21:00:34 | <guyst> | "grave threat to the minds of future civilians" |
| 21:00:40 | <guyst> | bloody right they are |
| 21:01:25 | <guyst> | nah, theyr alright, but theyl probably never get paid |
| 21:01:41 | <guyst> | unless they stop procrastinating! |
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| 21:56:28 | <mastarija> | If I decode ByteString as ASCII using the `decodeASCII`, how do I get the same bytestring back? |
| 21:56:43 | <mastarija> | There's no `encodeASCII :: Text -> ByteString` |
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| 21:58:31 | <hpc> | encodeASCII would be partial |
| 21:58:45 | <hpc> | encodeUtf8 should work though, it's a strict superset |
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| 21:58:56 | <hpc> | and 0-127 map to the same bytes |
| 21:59:09 | <mastarija> | Thx |
| 21:59:14 | <geekosaur> | note however that "ASCII" gets abused to mean ISO8859/1 |
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| 23:10:34 | <darkling> | ... of which it is a strict subset (IIRC) |
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| 23:15:28 | <geekosaur> | the codepoints are, but the conversion is not |
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| 23:17:52 | <geekosaur> | https://mincong.io/2019/04/07/understanding-iso-8859-1-and-utf-8/#character-mapping for example |
| 23:19:01 | <darkling> | Yeah, but strict ASCII is <127, so equivalent to Unicode and to 8859-1, in that range. |
| 23:22:11 | <geekosaur> | yes, but the whole reason I raised it is that many people use "ASCII" to include the range < 256 |
| 23:22:24 | <darkling> | Bad and Wrong. :) |
| 23:22:24 | <geekosaur> | incorrectly, but you do need to watch out for that |
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| 23:22:44 | <geekosaur> | assuming they're pedantic will get you corrupted data in that case |
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| 23:26:31 | <darkling> | A few weeks ago, our team retrospective included the gem "darkling can read raw Unicode". Apparently this is a rare skill. |
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| 23:28:54 | <darkling> | I just thought it was a requirement. |
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| 23:31:59 | <monochrom> | Next week, "darkling can actually write programs". >:) |
| 23:32:35 | <darkling> | Oh, I wouldn't go *that* far. |
| 23:33:30 | <darkling> | Although I had the "what's 2's complement?" moment two decades ago. |
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| 23:35:45 | <darkling> | (Someone else's question, not mine) |
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| 23:39:08 | <hpc> | heh, it's a good feeling having moments like that "can read raw unicode" thing |
| 23:39:23 | <hpc> | once i was explaining email to someone and just started casually writing out an smtp transaction over telnet |
| 23:39:41 | <hpc> | i go "and there you go" and the look on his face was amazing :D |
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| 23:40:10 | <darkling> | I'm starting to realise that I need to lean into the greybeard feeling these days. |
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| 23:40:45 | <hpc> | definitely |
| 23:40:51 | <geekosaur> | 🙂 |
| 23:40:59 | <darkling> | It's npt even grey yet1 |
| 23:41:03 | <hpc> | also make sure you learn a little bit of everything, and at the most fundamental level you can manage |
| 23:41:06 | <darkling> | It's not even grey yet! |
| 23:41:27 | <hpc> | i mainly do sysadmin, but had a bit of work that needed a bunch of async code |
| 23:41:32 | <geekosaur> | mine starts to gray when I'm stressed, then regains its color whne I recover |
| 23:41:36 | <darkling> | If you know the most fundamental levels, you can learn a little bit of everything. :) |
| 23:41:40 | <geekosaur> | I figure that means it won't be long |
| 23:41:41 | <hpc> | so i toss it over to a dev to make sure it's working right, he asks "i thought you were a sysadmin" |
| 23:41:48 | <hpc> | i say "ppppf, async is a monad, anyone can do it" |
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| 23:42:14 | <hpc> | (this was in javascript) |
| 23:42:17 | <darkling> | "You can't do that, it's not a regular language!" |
| 23:42:36 | <darkling> | "Wait, what do you mean by 'regular language'?" |
| 23:42:54 | <geekosaur> | *eyeroll |
| 23:42:55 | <darkling> | Hold my beer... |
| 23:43:02 | <hpc> | then i got the argument order for join wrong in python, but i don't think that one was my fault |
| 23:43:15 | <darkling> | join in python is... odd? |
| 23:43:19 | <geekosaur> | python is wrong 🙂 |
| 23:43:29 | <hpc> | ",".join(["word", "word", "word"]) |
| 23:43:40 | <darkling> | *bits* of python are wrong. |
| 23:43:58 | <hpc> | bytes of python are wrong |
| 23:44:30 | <darkling> | I came over to the FP side when I realised that I'd written multiple Python programmes without classes, and that the functional way was the True Path. :) |
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| 23:45:05 | <hpc> | i like to tell people i learned haskell after realizing i was too stupid for python |
| 23:45:13 | <hpc> | the only other language that's ever made as much sense for me is perl |
| 23:45:20 | <darkling> | I came through Erlang on the way. |
| 23:45:28 | <hpc> | ah, that's a nice detour |
| 23:46:16 | <monochrom> | Dijkstra said that the reason you use algebra and let the symbols do the work is because your intuition is too stupid. |
| 23:46:35 | <jackdk> | hpc: I'm not smart enough to use anything but Haskell either |
| 23:48:04 | <darkling> | I had a pure maths lecturer who sometimes came down to: "OK, so we can't use the definitions... let's try to think a bit..." |
| 23:48:17 | <darkling> | I'm starting to realise, 30 years later, what he meant. |
| 23:48:21 | <darkling> | Bright lad. :) |
| 23:48:39 | <monochrom> | I believe a bit of that myself. I use statically typed FP because I am too stupid to use untyped OOP, unlike Alan Kay. |
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| 23:49:24 | <monochrom> | Everything Alan Kay says about the benefits of his way requires a programmer as smart as him, otherwise it wouldn't work. |
| 23:51:00 | <darkling> | hpc: At the time, I was doing some things that looked like distributed systems, so Erlang was a good choice. Haskell and Lisp were the other options, but I've never found a Lisp tutorial I liked, and Haskell didn't fit with the CSP/Actor/multiprocess stuff going on in my life at the time. |
| 23:51:53 | <darkling> | I still need to spend a couple of years on Haskell to work out where I am, but it resonates. :) |
| 23:52:00 | <hpc> | yeah, i have found the best way to write lisp is like you're just writing haskell instead |
| 23:52:59 | <darkling> | (In other news, I had a slightly embarrasssing moment in the rum bar this evening, where I mis-heard "Haskell" as "Pascal") |
| 23:53:19 | <hpc> | i noticed after a few years of haskell that i got really good at noticing the patterns of things in other languages |
| 23:53:29 | <hpc> | like that async is a monad joke, but for real |
| 23:53:35 | <darkling> | ROFL |
| 23:53:45 | <darkling> | async is appalling. |
| 23:54:04 | <hpc> | it's fine |
| 23:54:32 | <hpc> | you just have to understand that it's baked into $language, and they don't have a generic facility for monads so they have to pick and choose the best ones for syntax |
| 23:54:42 | <darkling> | But yes, even with my minimal Haskell, I can kind of see where the theory is trying to unify things. |
| 23:54:48 | <hpc> | like rust's ? syntax |
| 23:55:53 | <darkling> | My approach so far is to write things as I see them from JS/Python/Erlang and then generalise to the algebras that are made explicit in Haskell. |
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| 23:57:58 | <darkling> | (Where I can see them) |
| 23:58:27 | <jackdk> | I remain fascinated by Erlang, but have not had reason to dig into it. Alas. |
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| 23:58:51 | <darkling> | The CSP/Actor thing is quite attractive. |
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| 23:59:21 | <darkling> | I'm glad I found it before Haskell. |
| 23:59:52 | <darkling> | As I see it, there's a profound thread of pragmatism running through Erlang, |
All times are in UTC on 2022-09-08.