Logs on 2022-09-09 (liberachat/#haskell)
| 00:00:06 | <jackdk> | The original Armstrong thesis is a goldmine |
| 00:00:21 | <darkling> | compared to the elegant theoretical viewpoint of Haskell. |
| 00:00:56 | <darkling> | Both are valuable, but (personally) if I'd hit Haskell first, I'd have lost the pragmatism. |
| 00:01:03 | <hpc> | darkling: have you ever tried perl? |
| 00:01:37 | <darkling> | I was a maintainer of a 140kloc MMORPG written in perl, about 15 years ago. :)/ |
| 00:01:46 | <hpc> | nice |
| 00:02:07 | <hpc> | every language should pick a thing to do as well as perl does strings |
| 00:02:30 | <darkling> | My Haskell goal is to write the successor to that. :) |
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| 00:04:47 | <darkling> | Aaah, /feurque/, I need to check out of this hotel in 10 hours. Ta-ta, one and all. |
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| 00:05:25 | <jackdk> | darkling: Awesome on many levels. However, I just went "15 years ago? So, like, a MUD?" and now I'm going to sulk about how old I am. |
| 00:05:40 | <geekosaur> | heh |
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| 00:06:24 | <hpc> | jackdk: !! i did the same thing |
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| 00:06:55 | <hpc> | 15 years ago, wow was already old |
| 00:06:57 | <darkling> | jackdk: Web-based. It's still occasionally up. |
| 00:07:41 | <jackdk> | I remember not seeing my friends for months when WoW first came out, because they all got on and I didn't. |
| 00:07:42 | <darkling> | ... although not right now, apparently. I should talk to Andy more often. |
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| 01:52:02 | <Clinton[m]> | is there a `readEither` function for `Text`, that dispatches like `Read` based on target class? I know I can go though `String` but breaking something into a linked list of characters first seems rather round about way of doing things. |
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| 01:52:20 | <Clinton[m]> | s/round/roundabout/, s/about// |
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| 01:58:21 | <nij-> | In FP, theoretically, we only care about compositions of functions. Something like |
| 01:58:28 | <nij-> | f5(f4(f3(f2(f1(f0(x)))))) |
| 01:58:41 | <nij-> | However, what if each fi takes a LONG time to compute? |
| 01:58:56 | <nij-> | Even if it's a pure function, I cannot help but saving its result somewhere and then proceed. |
| 02:01:14 | <pavonia> | Are you talking about saving results to disk and continue evaluation at a later time? |
| 02:01:59 | <nij-> | Or to memory with a name (e.g. variable or memoized function) |
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| 02:03:35 | <drlkf> | Clinton[m]: the Read typeclass is purely based on String so i doubt you can avoid going through this type |
| 02:05:05 | <pavonia> | nij-: What problems do you see with splitting long expression into smaller pieces using variables? It doesn't introduce side effects or so |
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| 02:06:12 | <nij-> | It doesn't count as side effects if I store the value in a variable that is later callable by some other functions? |
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| 02:07:51 | <pavonia> | No |
| 02:08:39 | <pavonia> | The point is, function will not be able to alter the value of that variable |
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| 02:21:16 | <qrpnxz> | do you guys know of any situation where it's ever advantagous to implement `mapM` directly? Any example instance? |
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| 03:11:21 | <dolio> | qrpnxz: It's sometimes possible to use less stack in mapM. However, it's questionable how much that matters. |
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| 03:19:03 | <pareto-optimal-d> | Why does my conduit only return one item in the list? `runConduit $ sequenceSources [ yieldMany [ Left ()], yieldMany [ Right "a", Right "b" ]] .| concat .| (awaitForever $ \x -> case x of Left () -> liftIO (putStrLn "hi"); Right _ -> yield x) .| printC` |
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| 03:31:25 | <pareto-optimal-d> | <pareto-optimal-d> "Why does my conduit only..." <- context: https://github.com/domdere/cassava-conduit/issues/30 |
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| 03:48:13 | <johnjaye> | what is a "top-level declaration" in haskell |
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| 03:49:57 | <monochrom> | Like when your declaration is not nested inside an outer one. |
| 03:50:43 | <johnjaye> | ok. i was writing hello world and i noticed if i did 'main putStrLn "hello world"' i got that error |
| 03:51:02 | <johnjaye> | so it seems to be a general error |
| 03:51:28 | <johnjaye> | i.e. expected import, module header, or top-level declaration |
| 03:52:20 | <dolio> | If you typed in exactly what you quoted, it's missing an = |
| 03:52:43 | <johnjaye> | right. i'm more trying to figure out what the error messages mean. since i read they are very specific in haskell |
| 03:53:03 | <johnjaye> | is every haskell program expected to be imports followed by declarations? |
| 03:53:19 | <monochrom> | For hello world there needs no import. |
| 03:53:39 | <johnjaye> | ok. but the main = ... part is a declaration, right |
| 03:53:45 | <monochrom> | Yes. |
| 03:53:54 | <johnjaye> | are all haskell programs declarations |
| 03:54:38 | <monochrom> | Not sure where we're going with this, but sure. |
| 03:56:13 | <johnjaye> | ok. |
| 03:56:46 | <johnjaye> | nowhere lol. i'm deleting characters from hello world and seeing what the error messages are |
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| 03:57:08 | <johnjaye> | right now when i mispell putStrLn it reports this as a wrong variable, not a wrong function. interesting |
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| 03:59:06 | <johnjaye> | the white space handling is also pretty amazing |
| 03:59:21 | <johnjaye> | i can write putStrLn"hello world" and ghc accepts that just fine |
| 03:59:55 | <dolio> | The Haskell Report is even more amazing, unless it's been fixed. |
| 04:01:10 | <dolio> | There are certain examples where it's specified to technically split up a word. |
| 04:02:00 | <johnjaye> | is that the official language spec from 98 |
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| 04:02:34 | <dolio> | Something like `let impor x y = x + y ; t = 5 in import 4` evaluates to 9. |
| 04:03:00 | <dolio> | Yeah. |
| 04:03:18 | <johnjaye> | meaning import gets recognized? @_@ |
| 04:03:52 | <dolio> | import is a reserved word, so that would be illegal, and it's possible to read the report as saying that it should instead tokenize as `impor t 4`. |
| 04:04:10 | <dolio> | GHC doesn't implement that, though, because it's ridiculous. |
| 04:04:17 | <johnjaye> | i see |
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| 04:04:44 | <johnjaye> | i guess i can't take this thought experiment much farther |
| 04:04:59 | <johnjaye> | because if i random *add* characters instead of deleting them i would get the same types of error |
| 04:05:18 | <johnjaye> | e.g. complaining there's no main if instead it's amain or bmain |
| 04:06:47 | <dolio> | It's possible to tell the compiler to look for another name. |
| 04:07:03 | <johnjaye> | oh ok |
| 04:07:22 | <johnjaye> | i guess in general though when i think of typical syntax errors you'd make in a program, usually it's omitting a character |
| 04:07:25 | <johnjaye> | like a missing " or ; |
| 04:07:39 | <johnjaye> | or like mispelling a name |
| 04:08:51 | <johnjaye> | well at least i got to see a few types of errors |
| 04:09:08 | <johnjaye> | whenever i learn a new language i always try to make simple syntax errors just to get a rough idea of the compiler-speak |
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| 04:09:38 | <johnjaye> | e.g. omitting the last " gives an error about a lexical error in a string/character literal |
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| 06:04:31 | <dminuoso> | pareto-optimal-d: Check the documentation on https://hackage.haskell.org/package/conduit-1.3.4.2/docs/Data-Conduit.html#v:sequenceSources |
| 06:05:15 | ← | jakalx parts (~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) (Error from remote client) |
| 06:05:48 | <dminuoso> | pareto-optimal-d: You might have meant sequence_ rather. |
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| 06:44:41 | <dminuoso> | I want to write a very tight loop with an unboxed counter. `f :: Int# -> Int#`, what's the right way to test whether the argument has reached a given size? |
| 06:46:44 | <dminuoso> | Something like `f x | x <# l = ...` does not work because <# produces an Int# rather than a Bool |
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| 06:54:13 | <dolio> | You can do `f x | 1# <- x <# l = ...` |
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| 06:55:56 | <dolio> | Writing things like this is not really necessary, though. |
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| 07:23:44 | <twb> | This might be too OT, but... I'm trying to find where in the _login HTML is in https://github.com/jgm/gitit |
| 07:24:02 | <twb> | I want to change <input type=password> to <input type=hidden value=fake-password1234> |
| 07:24:27 | <dminuoso> | dolio: Ah I think I figured out the official GHC way: tagToEnum# (and specialized ifTrue#) |
| 07:24:42 | <dminuoso> | so something like `f x | ifTrue# (x <# l) = ...` |
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| 07:27:11 | <twb> | I think it's this bit? https://github.com/jgm/gitit/blob/e27bd3ff684d8e864f2b04d22bbfc1810ec74967/src/Network/Gitit/Authentication.hs#L352-L362 |
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| 07:28:30 | <[exa]> | twb: looks like it, yes |
| 07:29:18 | <twb> | Thanks |
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| 07:29:35 | <twb> | Most of the rest is done via templates, but this one... apparently needs the .hs to be recompiled :/ |
| 07:29:47 | <[exa]> | like, the easiest way is to change it a bit and check in a browser if it changed the right part :D |
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| 07:30:26 | <twb> | Yeah I didn't feel like sitting through a full ghc :-) |
| 07:30:30 | <[exa]> | login code might be a bit too critical to be offloaded to templates (and borked by users) |
| 07:30:43 | <twb> | [exa]: indeed - I suspect exactly that |
| 07:30:45 | <[exa]> | shouldn't be that long imo |
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| 07:31:24 | <twb> | well gitit sits on top of pandoc which has to download all these "kate" syntax highlighting templates which -- last time -- took like 1GB of space |
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| 07:31:46 | <[exa]> | ah pandoc, yes, okay. |
| 07:31:49 | <twb> | I haven't done haskell since the Standard Platform was invented so maybe it is different no w:-) |
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| 07:32:08 | <twb> | I think you can opt-out of kate with cabal use flags |
| 07:32:15 | <twb> | Aaaanyway |
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| 07:32:17 | <[exa]> | I thought they invested into making pandoc a bit more sane, yes |
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| 08:44:50 | <dminuoso> | Mmm, unboxed gives me more headache that this might really be worth it. |
| 08:45:05 | <dminuoso> | Is there a way to specify Word8# literals? |
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| 09:23:19 | <AndreasK> | I don't think so. |
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| 10:56:33 | <nshepperd2> | dminuoso: wasn't edwardk doing stuff with this |
| 10:56:41 | <nshepperd2> | like https://github.com/ekmett/unboxed |
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| 11:18:37 | <dminuoso> | Interesting, I did not realize Num was polykinded |
| 11:18:41 | <dminuoso> | % :k Num |
| 11:18:41 | <yahb2> | Num :: * -> Constraint |
| 11:18:47 | <dminuoso> | Mmm, looks mono-kinded to me |
| 11:19:29 | <twb> | [exa]: FYI here is how I did it: https://github.com/trentbuck/gitit-bootstrap-theme/blob/debian/v0.1.0/debian/patches/cyber-disable-passwords.patch |
| 11:19:42 | <twb> | It is Good EnoughTM for government work |
| 11:19:49 | <dminuoso> | nshepperd2: but yeah interesting to look at thanks. Im not *that* desperate to warrant this package though. |
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| 11:32:04 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: https://github.com/ekmett/unboxed/blob/main/internal/Unboxed/Internal/Class.hs#L147 |
| 11:32:13 | <tomsmeding> | he redefined Num |
| 11:32:31 | <dminuoso> | Ah okay that makes sense now |
| 11:33:09 | <tomsmeding> | see also the juicy kind specialisation of the class directly below |
| 11:33:15 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: By the way, my unboxed experience is growing: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/KCDL07fq |
| 11:33:25 | <tomsmeding> | not enough # |
| 11:33:33 | <dminuoso> | There *was* a lot more before. |
| 11:35:03 | <dminuoso> | Im not entirely sure whether the construction of the Builder via nested function application is such a smart thing |
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| 11:35:27 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: you have this to live up to https://github.com/tmcdonell/lockfree-array-queue/blob/master/src/Data/Concurrent/Queue/Array/FAA.hs |
| 11:36:00 | <dminuoso> | reallyUnsafePtrEquality# |
| 11:36:06 | <dminuoso> | Neat name |
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| 11:45:27 | <int-e> | well, it is unsafe. really. |
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| 11:46:04 | <tomsmeding> | I figured |
| 11:46:17 | <int-e> | mostlyHarmlessPtrEquality, but that reference may be lost on younger people :P |
| 11:46:41 | <tomsmeding> | as in, earthly pointer equality? |
| 11:47:01 | <tomsmeding> | I actually have that book |
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| 11:47:11 | <int-e> | That's a bit too far. |
| 11:47:15 | <int-e> | But yes. |
| 11:48:07 | <tomsmeding> | the novel, that is, not the encyclopedia |
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| 11:48:40 | <int-e> | There's an encyclopedia? Hmm. I guess there was, but I never was interested. |
| 11:49:11 | <tomsmeding> | I mean that the phrase in question was from the encyclopedia galactica, or what was it called, right? |
| 11:49:37 | <int-e> | Yes. |
| 11:49:39 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: The book? I have the 5-part trilogy as a leather-bound volume with gold edge. |
| 11:49:43 | <int-e> | But I didn't follow :) |
| 11:50:00 | <tomsmeding> | 5-part trilogy? |
| 11:50:12 | <dminuoso> | Yes. A trilogy in five parts. |
| 11:50:19 | <tomsmeding> | sounds fishy |
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| 11:57:27 | <dminuoso> | I wonder, why doesnt StateT use unboxed tuples? |
| 11:58:10 | <Hecate> | dminuoso: I sent an email to Ross about the space leaks of State |
| 11:58:15 | <Hecate> | never got an answer |
| 11:58:43 | <Franciman> | are the space leak due to laziness misusage? |
| 11:58:53 | <Franciman> | or because of some logic bug? |
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| 12:04:12 | <Hecate> | Franciman: laziness mis-use IIRC |
| 12:04:32 | <Hecate> | Franciman: https://github.com/haskell-effectful/effectful/blob/master/transformers.md#controlmonadtranswriterstrict |
| 12:04:35 | <Franciman> | thanks |
| 12:04:39 | <Franciman> | yes that happens quite a lot |
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| 12:08:39 | <AndreasK> | dminuoso: GHCi used to not support unboxed tuples for example. So probably compability concerns with ghci and other compilers |
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| 12:26:41 | <dminuoso> | Ah I think I see a technical problem. `class Monad m` wouldn't allow for it as long as PolyKinds is disabled on that module. |
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| 12:26:56 | <dminuoso> | Otherwise you couldn't write `instance Monad (StateT# m s)` |
| 12:27:06 | <dminuoso> | I guess an unboxed non-transformer version could exist |
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| 12:49:44 | <riverside> | hi, i have quite a difficult function, im not sure how to define |
| 12:49:55 | <riverside> | i have a type lengthed list i want to spllit over an arbitrary tuple |
| 12:50:26 | <riverside> | i have implementations of take and chunksOf at type level |
| 12:50:40 | <riverside> | but im not sure how to perform the recursion for the arbitrary tuple |
| 12:51:15 | <riverside> | ill put together the code i have, hang on |
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| 12:52:30 | <riverside> | fwiw the reason for it is because if i combine two functions that require list params |
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| 12:52:51 | <riverside> | then i need to be able to a tuple to patten match on |
| 12:53:22 | <riverside> | so if i want all composite nets to take their params from a list, then i should first be able to tuple it |
| 12:53:42 | <riverside> | the good thing is that type inference should allow the destination type to completely specify the computation |
| 12:53:55 | <riverside> | the lengths in all the tuple positions |
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| 12:54:19 | <riverside> | im not sure if i should use a tree instead |
| 12:54:36 | <riverside> | probably save having to write different instances for 3 tuples for example |
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| 12:54:59 | <riverside> | or at least i should provide the insteances for pairs |
| 12:55:22 | <riverside> | sorry, i think i answered my own question by understanding the difficulty i was having conceptually was that there are many tuples |
| 12:56:25 | <riverside> | basically, because of type lengthing, i can match on a lengthed list as if it were a tuple, knowing exactly how many elements it has |
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| 12:57:39 | <riverside> | youd think that would be a kind of standard function |
| 12:58:01 | <riverside> | its the inverse of tree catenation |
| 12:58:27 | <riverside> | it exists with the lengthed list while it does not for the regular list |
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| 12:59:51 | <riverside> | now im stuck because basically i need to unfold a tree, something a lack of type lengthing has never enabled |
| 13:00:11 | <riverside> | i know i could traverse over it easily enough, and use the elngths encountered |
| 13:00:35 | <riverside> | maybe better to do that at value level than to grapple with the full beast |
| 13:01:29 | <riverside> | so i can generate a tree... er, or i need to fold from the right |
| 13:02:21 | <riverside> | do i have to initialize a null tree and then map elements into it? i cant figure out how to unfold it |
| 13:03:20 | <riverside> | i guess however i would end up implementing the "make a tree full of null leafs" would have the esesence of the recursion |
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| 13:04:05 | <riverside> | kind of annoyed at having to use the traversable instance of type lengthed tree though |
| 13:04:17 | <riverside> | means having to actually use the proper default machinery |
| 13:05:08 | <riverside> | SO, asside from just rambling, i could ask at that point about making a library |
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| 13:05:20 | <riverside> | since is shows me at least that it would need both value and type level |
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| 13:06:23 | <riverside> | a few years back a couple of us tried various abstractions to express it |
| 13:07:17 | <riverside> | recently, since i started working with length typing more, i realised fold and unfold are a special case of scanner |
| 13:07:31 | <riverside> | with null outputs or null inputs respectively |
| 13:07:55 | <riverside> | this unifies 3 lower order derived functions |
| 13:08:25 | <riverside> | modulo handling some null lists |
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| 13:09:12 | <riverside> | particularly, having fold and unfold be basically the same except with different null list placements |
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| 13:10:05 | <riverside> | i guess then even map, which is slightly different by having a null basecase |
| 13:10:22 | <riverside> | but yeah, having scanners as this central object |
| 13:10:30 | <riverside> | that then sections into fold unfold and map |
| 13:10:57 | <riverside> | so im mentioning because it really simplifies a previous attempt at an implementation/expression of the seti formalism |
| 13:11:14 | <riverside> | since it used code duplication (the part we were having difficulty abstracting away) |
| 13:12:49 | <riverside> | basically, its not apparent until you start working with lengthed lists where the empty list can represent null, distinguishable at type level (unlike list) |
| 13:13:18 | <riverside> | that shows all these inputs *are* of the same datatype |
| 13:13:52 | <riverside> | that nul inputs for sectioning scanners into maps folds and unfolds can simply be handled as lists, when they are type lengthed |
| 13:14:26 | <riverside> | then, you *can* follow the same design pattern at value level, since the zero vectors are no more difficult to produce or match on |
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| 13:14:43 | <riverside> | only, then we cant say at type level that one of the input lists *has* to be empty the whole time |
| 13:15:29 | <riverside> | essentially making map fold and unfold simply basecases! matching on the empty list.. well not actually basecase since they are never reached under recursion |
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| 13:16:18 | <riverside> | and you cant specify the null output of fold by patten matching (empty) lists on inputs |
| 13:16:24 | <riverside> | as* |
| 13:17:15 | <riverside> | if we follow the lengthed list approach, the result at value level is something id have never have thought of |
| 13:17:49 | <riverside> | and it solves a "cannonical formalism" debate which was, i dont think ever really "raging" in the haskell community |
| 13:17:57 | <riverside> | but certainly took a lot of my time |
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| 13:18:44 | <riverside> | a result valuble enough so i guess i dont actually have to finish my code, and can just go back to sleep and continue being poor forever! |
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| 13:21:20 | <riverside> | also! very nicely, it also gives us a strange form of argument length polymorphicity, but then you have to start using typed and not just lengthed lists -*if* you want argument type hetrogenity |
| 13:22:34 | <riverside> | however, in my application, everything encountered is a list of doubles, as the "argument length polymorphic" functions are nets |
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| 13:23:25 | <riverside> | not requiering type hetroginaity and allowing for simple lengthd lists to be used |
| 13:23:35 | <riverside> | i guess thats lucky |
| 13:24:14 | <riverside> | but the point is the proper "concequential formalism" actually results from a consideration of the hetrogenus version |
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| 13:24:57 | <riverside> | ie, map fold and unfold as sections of scanner by input argument number |
| 13:25:35 | <riverside> | and it wouldnt have been obvious you would need any number of arguments, since the types are scary! |
| 13:25:51 | <riverside> | so i guess i had to come at this from ML |
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| 13:26:13 | <riverside> | makes me wonder if anything im *actually* doing is *actually worth doing*... damn rabithole |
| 13:26:39 | <riverside> | (worth it for me at least ...) |
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| 13:27:28 | <riverside> | can someone else at least write it up for me |
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| 13:31:46 | <riverside> | having a dialect of haskell where you dont use whitespace to seperate arguments, but are forced to supply them in lists would shortcut this "rediscovery" process |
| 13:32:11 | <riverside> | which is a weird but perhaps awesome motivation for a language feature |
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| 13:32:28 | <riverside> | that it unifies map fold unfold and scanner |
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| 13:33:20 | <riverside> | also then probably forching the language to properly contend with the representation of type polymorphic lists as a language aspect |
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| 13:34:36 | <riverside> | and as its an "other than that, keep everything else the same" kind of thing, its not a bad language! just parses differently to haskell |
| 13:34:43 | <riverside> | very easy to compile to haskell |
| 13:35:41 | <riverside> | thought it could also work the other way round |
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| 13:36:02 | <riverside> | weird cross expression of compilers at a duality on ommiting whitespace! |
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| 13:36:53 | <riverside> | probably users wouldnt like the "all your arguments have to go in one list!" style, but if it makes this central connction more succincly expressible then it might work as an intermediate language in compilation |
| 13:37:02 | <riverside> | thought for that pupose its pretty terrible |
| 13:37:28 | <riverside> | unless all the rest of it used these kind of core higher order functions enough to make it worth it |
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| 13:39:01 | <riverside> | basically then the comment is "if your making a core language, consider argument bunching, since it unifies streaming, and provides a set of higher order functions useful from within the rest of the (possibly not turing complete) intermediate language" |
| 13:39:45 | <riverside> | "do you enjoy what you do?" |
| 13:40:46 | <riverside> | which part of lisp didnt you understand! we need lisps god damnit!! |
| 13:41:49 | <riverside> | tldr "can we have argument lists please" |
| 13:42:22 | <riverside> | they say "no, youd have spent the whole time trying to map over them" |
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| 13:43:10 | <riverside> | and then they say something quite strange about needing pointers into them, and this causing speech defects |
| 13:43:10 | ChanServ | sets mode +o geekosaur |
| 13:43:15 | <riverside> | bye! |
| 13:43:17 | <geekosaur> | that's enough |
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| 13:48:21 | <riverside> | is it possible to write uncurryN using type annotated lists? |
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| 13:51:39 | <riverside> | id call it STAMA "haskell uncurried" |
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| 13:57:43 | <[-n3W7-]> | ohai! Is there a manual somewhere on how to manually implement a Lens? I can't find anything useful from the first glance :( |
| 13:58:05 | <dminuoso> | [-n3W7-]: You can use `lens` for starters |
| 13:58:10 | <dminuoso> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lens-5.2/docs/Control-Lens-Combinators.html#v:lens |
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| 13:59:05 | <[-n3W7-]> | oh.. wow. This feels embarassing a bit :D |
| 13:59:08 | <[-n3W7-]> | Thank you! |
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| 15:12:46 | <c_wraith> | You can also just write one by hand. It's almost completely formulaic when you follow the types |
| 15:16:35 | <[-n3W7-]> | c_wraith: `lens` worked just fine, thank you. I prefer abstaining from using lens altogether. This time I'm just fixing some broken code. |
| 15:17:28 | <c_wraith> | so you don't use traverse or mapM either? |
| 15:17:55 | <c_wraith> | .... ok, that was a little on the snarky side. But lens is the same idea as those functions. |
| 15:18:34 | <[-n3W7-]> | c_wraith: lens the idea is. My problem is with lens the library. |
| 15:19:05 | <geekosaur> | o.O |
| 15:19:25 | <[-n3W7-]> | it feels like an entirely different language at times and not Haskell. Overall, to me it seems like a child of a solution in search of a problem and an overly complex attempt to plug the language deficiencies (kinda like Boost for C++) |
| 15:20:06 | <geekosaur> | I think most of us feel the opposite: it's a more Haskelly way to fix things like records than e.g. RecordDotSyntax |
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| 15:20:50 | <[-n3W7-]> | Basically, I subscribe to ro-che's opinion about lens |
| 15:20:51 | <[-n3W7-]> | https://ro-che.info/articles/2014-04-24-lens-unidiomatic |
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| 15:22:14 | <[-n3W7-]> | and since you mentioned RecordDotSyntax, my favorite thing about newcomers learning haskell is their first question often being "How come this advanced language still doesn't have normal records?" |
| 15:22:25 | <[-n3W7-]> | And then I tell them about lens, and they often never come back |
| 15:22:28 | <Rembane> | Historical reasons! :D |
| 15:22:34 | <Rembane> | Hm... how is optics vs lens in this regard? |
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| 15:23:11 | <[-n3W7-]> | I personally don't care, since my small mind panics when it sees more than two type parameters in a type. |
| 15:23:59 | <[-n3W7-]> | that's why I prefer RecordDotSyntax and everything that comes with it. |
| 15:24:21 | <[-n3W7-]> | If I wanted to implement anything and everything either myself or via some library, I'd use Common Lisp. |
| 15:24:46 | <c_wraith> | oh hey. "backwards composition". I haven't heard that argument in ages. |
| 15:25:12 | <c_wraith> | lenses don't compose backwards. Their type *explicitly* says that they transform a small modifier into a bigger modifier. |
| 15:25:31 | <c_wraith> | they compose the same direction as everything else |
| 15:26:03 | <c_wraith> | which makes sense, given that they use the same composition operator as everything else. |
| 15:26:32 | <[-n3W7-]> | that's literally the least significant part of that argument :) |
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| 15:26:54 | <[-n3W7-]> | Not being able to even remotely tell what the code does by looking at types is much more important |
| 15:26:58 | <EvanR> | lens was discovered not invented. You can tell |
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| 15:27:49 | <[-n3W7-]> | You can also tell that no other language has anything even remotely similar to lens. Probably because none is needed. |
| 15:27:57 | <Rembane> | dr_merijn: Good evening! Have you been levelling up lately? |
| 15:28:12 | <[-n3W7-]> | except maybe Perl and their weird OOP-in-a-library implementation. |
| 15:28:42 | <c_wraith> | [-n3W7-]: but... why does that claim the type of "below" is unreadable? it's... trivial... |
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| 15:28:58 | <EvanR> | like you can hate lens if I can hate group theory |
| 15:29:07 | <EvanR> | it kind of makes no sense argue with math |
| 15:29:42 | <EvanR> | you can only take it or leave xD |
| 15:29:42 | <[-n3W7-]> | c_wraith: more like abstract nonsense to me, honestly |
| 15:29:48 | <EvanR> | it |
| 15:29:52 | <c_wraith> | Like, there *are* unreadable types in lens |
| 15:29:54 | <c_wraith> | :t confusing |
| 15:29:55 | <lambdabot> | Applicative f => LensLike (Data.Functor.Day.Curried.Curried (Data.Functor.Yoneda.Yoneda f) (Data.Functor.Yoneda.Yoneda f)) s t a b -> LensLike f s t a b |
| 15:30:08 | <c_wraith> | What's that mean? heck if I know! |
| 15:30:18 | <c_wraith> | but below? That one's obvious. |
| 15:30:25 | <[-n3W7-]> | :t below |
| 15:30:26 | <lambdabot> | (Traversable f1, Choice p, Applicative f2) => APrism' s a -> p (f1 a) (f2 (f1 a)) -> p (f1 s) (f2 (f1 s)) |
| 15:30:30 | <[-n3W7-]> | ugh.. right |
| 15:30:32 | <EvanR> | what's funny is that lens comes with a bunch of OOP-like subtyping features |
| 15:30:47 | <EvanR> | which are great... but why I don't use OOP |
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| 15:31:16 | <EvanR> | but I've come to accept OOP just like accepting actual math |
| 15:31:38 | <c_wraith> | well. lens has subtyping, but it doesn't have anything as bizarre as OOP's subclassing. |
| 15:31:50 | <EvanR> | no it actually makes way more sense |
| 15:32:34 | <EvanR> | after seeing lens in action you can go back to industrial OOP and identify things that could be better |
| 15:32:43 | <EvanR> | after seeing lens (and many other haskell things) |
| 15:32:47 | <[-n3W7-]> | my favorite feature of lens is that they often give the second longest type errors. First place here belongs to servant, of course. |
| 15:32:47 | <Rembane> | +1 |
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| 15:33:08 | <Rembane> | Argh, wrong timing on my part. I'm missing so much from Haskell when I code in other languages. |
| 15:33:20 | <[-n3W7-]> | Rembane: same. But definitely not lens. |
| 15:33:39 | <[-n3W7-]> | I actually miss normal records in Haskell after writing code in other languages. |
| 15:34:01 | <EvanR> | other people want haskell in their language. Hence the current proposal on elixir to add <- syntax... to basically do a State |
| 15:34:07 | <EvanR> | of all things |
| 15:34:22 | <EvanR> | so that something like mapAccumL is easier for noobs |
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| 15:34:38 | <EvanR> | so it's a very backwards thing to want from haskell |
| 15:35:26 | <kaol> | > join (,) 1 |
| 15:35:28 | <lambdabot> | (1,1) |
| 15:35:36 | <kaol> | I think this is enough Haskell for me today. |
| 15:35:44 | <[-n3W7-]> | :D |
| 15:35:55 | <EvanR> | definitely a lot going on there |
| 15:36:03 | <EvanR> | "one haskell a day calendar" |
| 15:36:10 | <Rembane> | [-n3W7-]: I think Haskell records work quite well |
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| 15:36:33 | <[-n3W7-]> | Rembane: like the fact that you couldn't have two fields with the same name in the same module until recently? |
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| 15:36:45 | <[-n3W7-]> | wouldn't exactly call this "well" |
| 15:37:08 | <Rembane> | [-n3W7-]: YMMV |
| 15:37:08 | <EvanR> | among the reasons being it would auto produce accessor functions |
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| 15:37:18 | <EvanR> | fields = accessors is an issue |
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| 15:37:24 | <[-n3W7-]> | I know the reasons. This doesn't make them good. |
| 15:37:55 | <[-n3W7-]> | Honestly, this part of Haskell is just bad language design that managed to survive for 30 years. |
| 15:38:24 | <EvanR> | there was a time when haskell could rapid change things and break everyone's code |
| 15:38:48 | <EvanR> | it's time to move to the next 700 languages and use what we learned xD |
| 15:38:57 | <EvanR> | hopefully |
| 15:39:13 | <[-n3W7-]> | or maybe make Haskell 2.0 (or whatever the number is) and just break it once for good |
| 15:39:32 | <[-n3W7-]> | although, python has taught us why this probably is even worse idea |
| 15:39:35 | <EvanR> | that's just asking for punishment |
| 15:39:46 | <EvanR> | like how C++ is "C done right" |
| 15:40:04 | <EvanR> | no it's better to just do a paradigm shift |
| 15:40:17 | <kaol> | I want a language where every record is a profunctor. |
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| 15:40:22 | <[-n3W7-]> | c++ isn't c done right. It's a different language. |
| 15:40:52 | <dolio> | The problem with the above comparison is that what is interesting about lens isn't record accessors. |
| 15:40:56 | <EvanR> | we now know that with hindsight and 3.5 decades of additions |
| 15:40:57 | <[-n3W7-]> | it doesn't even fix anything from c whatsoever. Just adds a bunch of stuff. |
| 15:41:20 | <EvanR> | if haskell 2.0 is a different language in a good way, why call it that |
| 15:41:33 | <dolio> | It's composable traversals and such, which are way more widely useful than record accessors. |
| 15:41:46 | <[-n3W7-]> | EvanR: i never said it should be a different language altogether. Just fix what's broken and move on. |
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| 15:42:13 | <geekosaur> | stealing syntax is not fixing what's broken |
| 15:42:33 | <[-n3W7-]> | i digress |
| 15:42:37 | <EvanR> | that's a ridiculously huge project for these goals lol |
| 15:43:01 | <geekosaur> | . already has several meanings including an entirely valid meaning for the one RecordDotSyntax stole |
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| 16:00:05 | <BusConscious> | can you concat a Data.Set of Data.Sets ? |
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| 16:02:36 | <geekosaur> | not as such. you could fold a union across it though, I think |
| 16:02:54 | <BusConscious> | ah makes sense |
| 16:03:17 | <BusConscious> | thank you |
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| 17:09:17 | <EvanR> | :t unions |
| 17:09:18 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 17:09:18 | <lambdabot> | • Variable not in scope: unions |
| 17:09:18 | <lambdabot> | • Perhaps you meant one of these: |
| 17:11:37 | <geekosaur> | :t Set.unions |
| 17:11:39 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 17:11:39 | <lambdabot> | Not in scope: ‘Set.unions’ |
| 17:11:39 | <lambdabot> | Perhaps you meant one of these: |
| 17:11:41 | <geekosaur> | bah |
| 17:11:47 | <geekosaur> | :t Data.Set.unions |
| 17:11:48 | <lambdabot> | (Foldable f, Ord a) => f (S.Set a) -> S.Set a |
| 17:12:01 | <[exa]> | colaterally I find there's no package that would contain onions |
| 17:12:52 | <EvanR> | onions :: Chef -> Tears |
| 17:12:53 | <[exa]> | we've got lenses and plates and zooms and whatnot but y no onions, so layerish :( |
| 17:13:11 | <geekosaur> | or a garden to go with the aviary |
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| 17:39:23 | <monochrom> | We have garden-variety monads, implying that we do have a garden in the first place. -XImpllicitGarden |
| 17:39:46 | <AndreasK> | If you dive deep enough you can find some https://hackage-search.serokell.io/?q=%5Csonion%5Cs |
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| 17:40:45 | <monochrom> | Is that a typo for union? Or even a pun on union? |
| 17:43:07 | <monochrom> | Speaking of AVL trees, I like lenses for being first-class references, i.e., recall that in AVL trees (or all balanced BSTs) you write one copy of code for left rotation and another copy for right rotation. That begs for parameterization, and the solution is to parameterize by first-class references such as lenses. |
| 17:44:09 | <[exa]> | AndreasK: oh lovable |
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| 18:09:03 | <BusConscious> | :w |
| 18:09:08 | <BusConscious> | sorry |
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| 18:21:40 | <carbolymer> | BusConscious: still stranded in vim? |
| 18:22:27 | <BusConscious> | yes |
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| 18:27:41 | <__monty__> | Quick un-asked-for Vim tip. Use `:up` or `:update` instead of `:w(rite)`. It avoids doing disk I/O if the file hasn't changed. Also, use `ZZ` instead of `:wq`, it basically does `:update` `:quit`. |
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| 18:33:05 | <c_wraith> | and if you remember when Epic was still Epic Megagames, use ZZT |
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| 18:39:17 | <BusConscious> | Can I Set.filter with an IO action? |
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| 18:40:00 | <BusConscious> | (a -> Bool) is expected, but I have FilePath -> IO Bool |
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| 18:40:57 | <c_wraith> | Looks like not without going via an intermediate list |
| 18:41:56 | <BusConscious> | So does it work for lists at least? |
| 18:42:06 | <c_wraith> | oh, not true |
| 18:42:17 | <c_wraith> | If you want something mind-bending... Set.alterF |
| 18:42:43 | <c_wraith> | Oh, that doesn't map. nevermind |
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| 18:43:26 | <BusConscious> | I have a set of FilePaths and I want to filter for only those that are directories |
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| 18:44:08 | <BusConscious> | isDir = (not <$>) . doesFileExist isDir is of type FilePath -> IO Bool |
| 18:44:18 | <BusConscious> | not -> Bool which is kind of the issue here |
| 18:44:28 | Lord_of_Life_ | is now known as Lord_of_Life |
| 18:44:35 | <monochrom> | There is possibly filterM somewhere in base, possibly Control.Monad |
| 18:45:06 | <BusConscious> | ah |
| 18:45:11 | <c_wraith> | I don't see anything better than this |
| 18:45:12 | <c_wraith> | :t \f s -> S.fromList <$> filterM f (S.toList s) |
| 18:45:13 | <lambdabot> | (Ord a, Applicative f) => (a -> f Bool) -> S.Set a -> f (S.Set a) |
| 18:45:31 | <BusConscious> | but this does sound exactly like what I asked for |
| 18:45:34 | <BusConscious> | time to try out |
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| 18:45:48 | <c_wraith> | though I suppose there's a good chance you might need need to make it back into a set |
| 18:46:32 | <monochrom> | You can use fromAscList in this case. |
| 18:46:46 | <c_wraith> | also, (not <$>) is fmap not, if you want to remove some parens from the composition |
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| 18:50:34 | <monochrom> | Perhaps there is something in the lens library haha |
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| 18:51:26 | <BusConscious> | problem solved: I don't actually need sets |
| 18:52:09 | <c_wraith> | Nothing in lens - it doesn't have tools for filtering in general |
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| 18:54:01 | <c_wraith> | oddly, nothing in Witherable either. It's all about filtering, but skips Set in favor of Traversable types |
| 18:59:53 | <BusConscious> | [IO a] -> IO [a] what was that again? I forgot |
| 18:59:59 | <c_wraith> | sequence |
| 19:00:19 | <c_wraith> | but you can probably avoid it with an early use of mapM or traverse instead of map |
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| 19:02:57 | <BusConscious> | I have to keep these _M variants in mind |
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| 19:06:53 | <tomsmeding> | (mapM == traverse) |
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| 19:08:59 | <c_wraith> | is there any library out there that integrates property testing with the Distribution.TestSuite stuff in Cabal? |
| 19:09:16 | <c_wraith> | (any of the property checking libraries would be fine) |
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| 19:11:50 | <c_wraith> | Oh. Hah. There's a super-minimal option called cabal-test-quickcheck. It would certainly work.. |
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| 19:12:58 | <c_wraith> | Though it hasn't been touched in a long time, and doesn't officially build against current Cabal |
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| 19:13:26 | <lyle> | I'm getting the dreaded "There are files missing" when I try to build with cabal. What should I do? Here's a minimal project that reproduces the problem: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/96kCW5Tz |
| 19:13:45 | <eikke> | Is there a way to force GHC to use UTF-8 on default file handles, on a system where locale files are not present, and without making code modifications? |
| 19:13:54 | <lyle> | I'm trying to make the switch from stack to cabal. |
| 19:14:49 | <c_wraith> | lyle: what version of cabal-install (that is, the cabal executable) |
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| 19:16:07 | <c_wraith> | lyle: though... it might be worth noting the library it's reporting problems with claims to be deprecated anyway |
| 19:16:10 | <lyle> | cabal-install version 3.6.2.0. I installed it via ghcup. |
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| 19:28:47 | <geekosaur> | eikke, you can still set the environment variables and they will be used by ghc the RTS has its own Unicode support tables which are regularly updated, rather than using locale files) |
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| 19:29:04 | <geekosaur> | *(the RTS |
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| 19:30:22 | <Noinia> | hmm, I guess it isn't possible to define bidirectional type synonyms as part of a typeclass..... Maybe that was a too strange thing to hope for. Is there an obvious reason why that should not be possible? |
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| 19:31:04 | <Noinia> | (or any pattern synonym for that matter) |
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| 19:35:26 | <geekosaur> | typeclasses are open, whereas bidirectionality requires that the "universe" of types on both sides be closed |
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| 19:36:21 | <geekosaur> | and I'm not sure what ypu mean by the reference to pattern synonyms, but there's nowhere meaningful to put one in a typeclass instance's witness record |
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| 19:39:43 | <mastarija> | Why is GHC bugging me about this `m` being the `IO`? |
| 19:39:51 | <mastarija> | genCode :: MonadIO m => m Natural |
| 19:39:57 | <mastarija> | genCode = fmap fromIntegral $ getStdRandom $ randomR (0, 9999 :: Int) |
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| 19:40:38 | <dolio> | Most functions aren't overloaded to MonadIO. |
| 19:40:54 | <mastarija> | I see nothing that would specialize `m` to `IO` |
| 19:41:03 | <geekosaur> | :t getStdRandom |
| 19:41:04 | <lambdabot> | MonadIO m => (StdGen -> (a, StdGen)) -> m a |
| 19:41:15 | <geekosaur> | :t randomR |
| 19:41:16 | <lambdabot> | (Random a, RandomGen g) => (a, a) -> g -> (a, g) |
| 19:41:23 | <eikke> | geekosaur: that's not what I'm seeing sadly enough :( I set LC_CTYPE/LC_ALL/LANG, and the localeEncodingName is/remains ANSI_X3.4-1968. Reading GHC sources, that seems kinda expected. |
| 19:41:24 | <mastarija> | Right, that shouldn't interfere |
| 19:41:44 | <lyle> | Figured it out--I had had .cabal/config set up to use shared libaries from some earlier attempt to switch to cabal that I forgot about. I deleted ~/.cabal and started over with the default config. |
| 19:42:26 | <dolio> | Wow, guess I haven't used the random package in a while. |
| 19:42:44 | <mastarija> | Hm.. maybe I'm on an old version... |
| 19:43:00 | <mastarija> | How do I check my packages again, is it ghc-packages or something |
| 19:43:02 | <dolio> | Yeah, in 1.1 it's IO. |
| 19:43:18 | <geekosaur> | ghc-pkg list, but it won't show stuff you installed with cabal or stack |
| 19:43:26 | <mastarija> | I'm in nix shell |
| 19:43:28 | <dolio> | 1.2 is 2 years old, though. |
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| 19:43:31 | <mastarija> | it should show |
| 19:43:40 | <Noinia> | geekosaur: I was trying to do something like this: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/o7mCW7kU |
| 19:43:51 | <Noinia> | I would think that could potentially make sense no? |
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| 19:44:54 | <geekosaur> | that would definitely require compiler changes. I guess you could file a proposal |
| 19:45:18 | <[Leary]> | You might want ... was it data families? data instances? |
| 19:45:22 | <geekosaur> | but currently I think a pattern has to apply to a concrete type, not a typeclass instance |
| 19:45:45 | <mastarija> | Yeah.. I have random-1.1 package |
| 19:45:53 | <mastarija> | lift it is |
| 19:46:09 | <Noinia> | yes I realized tat; and it does seem like a somewat niche thing to ask for |
| 19:47:12 | <Noinia> | maybe I sould first figure out if what I currently have (i.e. the pattern synonym outside the class) produces reasonable core anyway, or that there is actual performance to be gained |
| 19:47:22 | <[Leary]> | Noinia: The other possibility is to just write the pattern synonym outside the class, with the implementation for one direction in the class. |
| 19:48:18 | <eikke> | geekosaur: from what I see, RTS init calls setlocale(LC_CTYPE, ""), then the locales used are set to the one retrieved by c_localeEncoding, which calls either libcharset or glibc, i.e., nl_langinfo, which needs the database or falls back to ANSI_X3.4-1968 |
| 19:48:33 | <geekosaur> | oh. sigh |
| 19:48:41 | <geekosaur> | then I think you're stuck |
| 19:49:49 | <Noinia> | [Leary]: hmm, yes I guess I'll try and play with that a bit more as well. |
| 19:50:10 | <geekosaur> | unless you can LD_PRELOAD a dummy setlocale and such |
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| 19:51:36 | <eikke> | geekosaur: hackish, but yeah. May give that a try. |
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| 19:51:54 | <monochrom> | Is there a way to externally point glibc to locale files that you prepare? :) |
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| 19:54:41 | <geekosaur> | looks like LOCPATH might be a thingt |
| 19:55:23 | <geekosaur> | see `man 1 locale`; `setlocale(3)` doesn't document it |
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| 19:56:47 | <geekosaur> | mmm, guess they missed it 😞 |
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| 19:58:35 | <monochrom> | Oh, man 7 locale has LOCPATH :) |
| 19:59:32 | <monochrom> | But yeah if it has "used by newlocale(3) and setlocale(3)" then seriously newlocale(3) and setlocale(3) should also bring it up. |
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| 20:46:56 | <eikke> | monochrom: yes, but that won't solve my issue where I simply don't have locale files available in the env :) doesn't really matter where |
| 20:48:07 | <geekosaur> | but there are tools to make locale files and you could conceivably make the necessary ones for Unicode as one way around it |
| 20:48:26 | <geekosaur> | less hacky than LD_PRELOAD |
| 20:48:52 | <geekosaur> | (or not even make them, just copy the UTF8 ones you need from somewhere) |
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| 21:05:18 | <eikke> | geekosaur: yeah including the file technically works. Not sure it's the right approach given the build system I'll need to adapt somehow. Will figure it out. |
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| 23:58:25 | <fraznel> | hey all, just following up on my postgres / exception woes. I have yet to get to the bottom of it but have yanked exception handling out of my application monad for now, just kicking it down the road but wanted to share findings here incase they are relevant to anyone or if someone can explain why the behavior i'm seeing is happening |
| 23:59:05 | <fraznel> | anything being run in an MonadUnliftIO context seems to require UnliftIO's version of exception handling functions or the exception escapes the handlers |
| 23:59:50 | <fraznel> | even using that UnliftIO version of handleAny, if done from within a monad on a larger transformer stack, also allows the exception to escape the handler |
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