Logs on 2022-09-12 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:08:55	<qrpnxz>	i don't think there's value to having (>=>) in the type class. `join` would be nice (i feel like it could actually be taken advantage of, but i admit to not having a concrete example), but it has that deriving problem
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00:10:03	<geekosaur>	the list monad is most naturally expressed in terms of fmap and join instead of bind
00:10:18	<geekosaur>	might come out faster unless ghc already optimizes it
00:11:28	<qrpnxz>	perhaps, but in terms of "natural expression", one could just do `ma >>= k = join (fmap k ma) where join = ...`. I'm more in particular wondering about an implementation of join that would be more efficient.
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00:14:44	<qrpnxz>	the reason it makes sense to me that join could be more optimal with a direct implementation is that it's not doing any mapping. On the other hand, you could say the same about `sequenceA` and i think it turns out it's actually better to implement `traverse` almost always if not always.
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00:15:17	<qrpnxz>	but that about traverse i guess is only for implementing one in terms of the other. You can also implement both.
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00:16:37	<qrpnxz>	the only specialization of `join` i really know is `concat`, and i attribute that to historical reasons. So i have to wonder who is really benefiting from a custom `join` performance-wise?
00:19:11	<jackdk>	I wouldn't be surprised if one turns up in FRP somewhere, but I don't know enough to say
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00:24:27	<monochrom>	Most people use >>=, so >>= is optimized.
00:25:14	<monochrom>	In the mirror universe, most people use fmap and join, so fmap, join, and their fusion are optimized. :)
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00:29:21	<EvanR>	in the mirror universe haskell is based on comonads
00:29:59	<EvanR>	and we all have beards if we didn't already
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01:19:31	<mjrosenb>	do our mirror counterparts lack beards if we have them?
01:24:10	<Axman6>	the developers of CoHaskell have beards, but no bodiea
01:24:13	<Axman6>	bodies*
01:26:21	<ddellacosta>	ah yes this was the right time to come see what is going on in #haskell
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02:53:48	<qrpnxz>	came up with a way to select class instances in a stack with proxies and INCOHERENT. Works just beautifully.
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03:20:29	<Guest74>	O, another Haskell Channel. Hello Haskell :P
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03:28:23	<Guest74>	hey, how to write a takeWhile function?
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03:35:14	<Guest74>	Can I do it as below?
03:35:18	<Guest74>	takeWhile' ::(a -> Bool) -> [a] ->[a]
03:35:18	<Guest74>	takeWhile' f [] = []
03:35:19	<Guest74>	takeWhile' f (x:xs) \| not (f x) = []
03:35:19	<Guest74>	\| otherwise = x : takeWhile' f xs
03:36:58	<dolio>	Yes.
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03:44:47	<Guest74>	thanks. Don;t know how paste code style... hope it won't be trouble to read
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03:47:36	<pavonia>	See topic
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04:09:16	<Axman6>	@where paste
04:09:17	<lambdabot>	Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com
04:09:50	<Axman6>	Guest74: you can also avoid needing to use not by swapping the two equations for the cons case
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04:12:45	<haskell_is_no_ha>	oh cool a haskell chat! I just got mIRC would this be a good place to ask haskell questions that I can't find the answers to online?
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04:13:52	<Guest74>	@qslHCylj
04:13:52	<lambdabot>	Unknown command, try @list
04:16:13	<Guest74>	still cannot get it for pasting code
04:16:19	<jackdk>	haskell_is_no_ha: Yes, absolutely.
04:16:33	<jackdk>	And welcome.
04:17:08	<haskell_is_no_ha>	Thanks! My particular question is I was wondering why the command [1,2] = [1,2,3] is a valid expression in haskell
04:17:43	<pavonia>	Guest74: You just paste the link to the code you pasted on that website here, like https://paste.tomsmeding.com/qslHCylj
04:18:27	<Guest74>	Okey, now I got it. thanks pavonia
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04:19:52	<Guest74>	What wrong with this code https://paste.tomsmeding.com/qslHCylj ? My editor always told me is not completed, though the compilation works... should I add an otherwise branch?
04:20:04	<jackdk>	haskell_is_no_ha: in GHCi? When you write something like that, you're implicitly doing so in a `let` binding. Consider what happens when you write `[1, x, 3] = [1, 2, 3]`. Because Haskell is lazy, it won't actually try to pattern-match until you ask it to evaluate `x`:
04:20:14	<jackdk>	> [1, x, 3] = [1, 2, 3]
04:20:16	<lambdabot>	<hint>:1:11: error: parse error on input ‘=’
04:20:26	<jackdk>	okay lambdabot's doing something different, never mind
04:20:29	<haskell_is_no_ha>	oooo very interesting! I'll give it a try
04:20:57	<jackdk>	But if you write `[1, x, 3] = []`, GHCi will happily accept that, but will only error once you try to evaluate `x`
04:21:19	<jackdk>	What you wrote - `[1, 2] = [1, 2, 3]` introduces no new variables, so you don't have a way to force the RHS
04:21:21	<haskell_is_no_ha>	So it's all because haskell has lazy evaluation? That's so awesome
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04:23:16	<haskell_is_no_ha>	I got x = 2 from that so I think I'm following, it's creating a symbolic link between a value in the first and a corresponding value in the second list in lexicographic order and only actually evaluates if the value is called, but if it's a number there's no need to evaluate so it doesn't find a syntax error in the first expression?
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04:24:52	<jackdk>	It's not a syntax error, it would be a pattern-match failure. Try putting `[1, x] = [2, 3]` into GHCi and evaluating `x`
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04:31:43	<haskell_is_no_ha>	I'm getting non-exhaustive patterns in [1, x] I'm gonna see if I can understand what that means and get back to you. I see now how it's not a syntax error I think, that's because syntactically it works but it's only once you try and evaluate x it creates a pattern match failure?
04:33:14	<haskell_is_no_ha>	oh sorry didn't see you said more stuff
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04:47:46	<Guest74>	https://paste.tomsmeding.com/qslHCylj should I add an otherwise branch to suppress the warning that my editor emitted?
04:50:34	<pavonia>	What warning is that?
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04:51:04	<c_wraith>	presumably something about non-exhaustive branches.
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04:51:16	<[Leary]>	Guest74: GHC isn't smart enough to know that your code is complete. You should replace `odd n` with otherwise, since it's redundant anyway.
04:51:16	<c_wraith>	ghc isn't allowed to assume even and odd cover all cases
04:52:04	<haskell_is_no_ha>	OK so what I'm getting from reading stack overflow is that haskell wants to make sure that every possible way you could match any piece in the list is not going to generate an error. So if `[1, x] = [1, 1]` there's no exhaustive pattern-match failure because when you input `x` haskell is actually iterating through the list and creating separate commands `let 1 = 1` `let x = 1` which haskell
04:52:04	<haskell_is_no_ha>	has no problem with. But if I input `[1, x] = [2, 2]` then when I input `x` haskell is literally evaluating the commands `let 1 = 2` `let x = 2`. But when I try manually inputting those commands haskell seems absolutely fine with it? So I must be wrong
04:52:52	<haskell_is_no_ha>	I guess I don't understand properly what a pattern is, is that the right direction to look into? I'm very new to the language
04:52:56	<c_wraith>	haskell_is_no_ha: it's not doing the matches independently.
04:53:17	<c_wraith>	haskell_is_no_ha: if 1 doesn't match 2, the whole pattern fails
04:53:49	<c_wraith>	So it goes looking for the next one. and if there isn't one, it's a non-exhaustive pattern match failure
04:53:53	<Guest74>	pavonia, the warning: Pattern match(es) are non-exhaustive In an equation for ‘chain’ Patterns not matched: p where p is not one of {0, 1}compile(-Wincomplete-patterns); but this does not impact the function correctness...
04:54:51	<Guest74>	thanks [Leary] and c_wraith. Now I understood..
04:55:42	<haskell_is_no_ha>	So haskell is checking if 1 can equal 2, and if it doesn't it checks if the next entry in the list provides a valid RHS? I feel I'm still misunderstanding because that does not seem to be the case because I input `[1, x] = [2, 1, 2]` and get the same error.
04:56:29	<haskell_is_no_ha>	I think I just need to understand more what a pattern in haskell is, my bad
04:56:45	<c_wraith>	it's checking if the pattern [1, x] matches [2, 1, 2]. It doesn't, in two different ways. One, the length of the list is wrong. Two, the first element isn't 1
04:56:57	<haskell_is_no_ha>	ohhhhhh
04:57:06	<haskell_is_no_ha>	thanks so much! That clears up a lot
04:57:16	<haskell_is_no_ha>	Haskell is so dope haha
04:57:29	<haskell_is_no_ha>	I appreciate all the help :)
04:57:56	<c_wraith>	there's a lot to learn. don't worry about taking some time to pick it all up
04:59:08	<c_wraith>	Guest74: you should use otherwise for the second case. GHC's exhaustiveness checker doesn't do a whole lot of logic about guards.
05:00:56	<haskell_is_no_ha>	I'm excited to put in the time, I love putting time into this language because it's not going anywhere any time soon. Deep down whenever I do something like learning a framework in javascript I don't feel as much love for learning the small things about whatever framework I'm using because I know I probably won't be using the framework all that long or the framework itself will change, but
05:00:56	<haskell_is_no_ha>	I feel a different satisfaction in investing time in haskell stuff because the majority of it will likely stay the same for the rest of my natural life... or am I mistaken in that? like I said I'm a novice lol
05:02:28	<Guest74>	great, thanks a lot. It's syntax linting concern. now it's clear.
05:03:17	<c_wraith>	haskell_is_no_ha: well. Libraries might change in significant ways. Even the Prelude has had some significant changes. But the language underneath doesn't change, and usually it's easy to understand the changes when you understand the things the language does.
05:04:57	<haskell_is_no_ha>	So libraries are nice, but will change but the essential haskell paradigm I'm falling in love with won't be changing any time soon? I love that
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05:08:00	<c_wraith>	Well. I should be more specific. The language has experiments happen a lot, but they're almost always behind extensions that are optional. The only "recent" exceptions I can think of are the removal of n+k patterns and data type contexts. And those were both a long time back, now.
05:08:21	<c_wraith>	Also, most people would have said you shouldn't use those anyway. :)
05:09:24	<haskell_is_no_ha>	Ah, thanks! Well thanks again for the help everyone I appreciate the time :) have a gn
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05:16:52	<Guest74>	http://lemonodor.com/images/functional-programming-is-beautiful-s.jpg
05:17:34	<Guest74>	Just for fun with above image.:P my friends who are LISP programmers told me to stop learning Haskell. while I found it quite interesting.
05:17:38	<jackdk>	Just follow the rules and you'll be safe.
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05:37:58	<Guest\|56>	Hey, I am trying to compile wstunnel (https://github.com/erebe/wstunnel) for windows 32 bit. But the stack is giving an error that 7zip cannot extract downloaded ghc.
05:38:18	<Guest\|56>	Any advice ?
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07:32:07	<fraznel>	ok, got some time to dig at the repro and the exception was coming from outside my handleAny :! safe-exceptions version and unliftio versions work great
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07:35:53	<fraznel>	thanks to those that read my paste a couple days ago, turns out i wasn't guarding all functions that throw. user-error
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09:39:49	<dminuoso>	`Benchmark bench: ERROR`
09:39:55	<dminuoso>	What is criterion trying to tell me here?
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10:33:27	<dminuoso>	Oh well, I think I figured it out. Segmentation faults. :>
10:34:10	<dminuoso>	tomsmeding: I did some thorough benchmarking by the way. Pretty printing domains with manual ByteArray# construction is just ~3 times slower than DList + text builder.
10:34:23	<dminuoso>	I was very surprised at how fast the latter is.
10:35:31	<dminuoso>	That is, generating a `DList Char` and feeding it into T.pack is that fast.
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10:37:01	<dminuoso>	https://gist.github.com/dminuoso/6b94b76bb6e52a6b6a5ca1b7a7842ef0
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10:40:48	<__monty__>	Am I misinterpreting these timings? μs are longer than ns, no?
10:41:20	<dminuoso>	Yes
10:41:36	<dminuoso>	Ah, I falsely wrote "slower" there. I meant faster.
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10:45:35	<__monty__>	Ah, right. But that is still fast considering the ease of use? Gotcha.
10:45:43	<dminuoso>	Roughly, in the slower code I use ShortByteString.unpack, a [Word8] -> [Char] function per domain label, wrap into `DList Char`, and then T.pack the string back into a Text.
10:46:43	<dminuoso>	In the faster code I figure out the needed bytearray buffer with a simple function that indexWord8Array# into the individual buffers in a first loop, construct a MutableByteArray# of required size, loop over the source ByteArray# again, poking bytes as needed.
10:47:56	<__monty__>	Is that relying on Text's internal representation?
10:48:21	<dminuoso>	Yes, but that's just a utf16/utf8 (depending on version) buffer
10:48:25	<dminuoso>	Nothing magical
10:49:16	<dminuoso>	Ill have to do some profiling why this is, but I suspect one reason why the primop code isnt much faster is because Im using boxed counters - so these tight loops presumably generate a lot of allocations
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11:17:00	<dminuoso>	Profiling this is really hard, adding cost centers really ruins optimizations. :(
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11:18:33	<int-e>	I suppose you could stare at core to see whether the compiler is unboxing your counters
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11:30:29	<Guest74>	Hi, is there any Haskell exercise for beginner to deepen the learning? I am studying the language and can understand every line of the tutorial, but I had certain feelings that I cannot code in Haskell, as I did not truly understand it...
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11:34:22	<opqdonut>	Guest74: my course haskell.mooc.fi has lots of exercises, with tests that tell you when you got it right
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11:34:35	<opqdonut>	it's completely open
11:35:01	<opqdonut>	you can browse the exercises here: https://github.com/moocfi/haskell-mooc/
11:35:23	<opqdonut>	programming tutorials without exercises are kinda useless IMO. you only learn by doing
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11:43:46	<Guest74>	opqdonut, very good tutorial. I wish I could read them earlier. Anyway, not too later to restart learning it again with this great material.
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11:54:42	<dminuoso>	int-e: Yeah it actually is. I think staring at the core output is my best bet here.
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11:55:04	<dminuoso>	Relatedly, where can I find the GHC documentation for `"foo"# :: Addr#` literals?
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11:57:46	<Hecate>	dminuoso: there is none, it's all in the parser
11:57:54	<Hecate>	I think I found it there some time ago
11:57:59	<Hecate>	might try to look for it again
12:01:40	<dminuoso>	Hecate: It's all in the lexer. :>
12:02:35	<dminuoso>	Seems to be just `Data.ByteString.Char8.pack` with Addr# pointing at the underlying ByteArray#
12:02:41	<dminuoso>	Thanks, that helped.
12:05:11	<Hecate>	dminuoso: well there's also a nice custom error message for the literals IIRC
12:05:57	<Hecate>	but I can't reproduce in GHCi, curse :(
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12:40:04	<dminuoso>	Hecate: What do you mean by custom error message?
12:40:07	<dminuoso>	Under what condition?
12:40:49	<dminuoso>	Either way, I think unboxed string literals deserve a mention in the GHC manual. I shall amend it tomorrow.
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12:41:57	<Hecate>	dminuoso: if you put codepoints outside of ascii for a magic-hashed string literal, the frontend gives you a little surprise
12:42:10	<Hecate>	dminuoso: ping me on the MR plox :3
12:42:26	<dminuoso>	Judging from the lexer code, Im almost entirely convinced it couldnt produce such error messages.
12:42:44	<dminuoso>	Already at lexing time the buffer is fed through Data.ByteString.Char8.pack unchecked
12:43:23	<geekosaur>	but you can write one yourself
12:43:36	<geekosaur>	% :set -XMagicHash
12:43:36	<yahb2>	<interactive>:1:1: error: Not in scope: ‘Yahb2Defs.limitedPrint’
12:43:43	<geekosaur>	gah
12:44:06	<geekosaur>	@let {-# LANGUAGE MagicHash #-}
12:44:07	<lambdabot>	Defined.
12:44:19	<geekosaur>	> "☺"#
12:44:20	<lambdabot>	error:
12:44:20	<lambdabot>	primitive string literal must contain only characters <= '\xFF'
12:44:25	<dminuoso>	Mmm
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12:45:01	<dminuoso>	Ah, right. Its not unchecked. I did not catch that line
12:45:46	<dminuoso>	https://github.com/ghc/ghc/blob/master/compiler/GHC/Parser/Lexer.x#L2026-L2033
12:46:42	<dminuoso>	I was mostly just wondering what kind of memory buffer I would be getting, because it occured to me that if this was mapped into a `text` buffer, I might be getting an UTF16 buffer
12:46:58	<dminuoso>	(Though experiments suggested differently, I didnt feel like inferring from user experience)
12:47:24	<Hecate>	geekosaur: ah, thank you very much!!
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16:46:45	<kaol>	I know it's likely to be heavily in the obfuscated Haskell territory but has anyone had a use for the function instance of Kleisli arrow? A lovely little function with the type (b -> r -> c) -> (a -> r -> b) -> a -> r -> c.
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16:49:04	<c_wraith>	I'm sure you could look at uses of Reader and find something that can be rewritten to use <=<
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16:50:46	<c_wraith>	But as far as common silly tricks? I don't think it comes up.
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16:56:42	<kaol>	I started exploring just what the function instances do and I could come up with example uses for anything but that.
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17:03:07	<kaol>	(<*>) f g x = f (g x) x, (=<<) f g x = f x (g x) and join f x = f x x are all reasonably useful functions to have.
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17:04:32	<c_wraith>	So here's the thing: I can see more uses for (r -> b -> c) -> (r -> a -> b) -> r -> a -> c
17:05:20	<c_wraith>	which is the same thing - except if you want that type, you'd need a bunch of flips to use it with <=< instead
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17:08:10	<c_wraith>	like...
17:08:11	<c_wraith>	:t flip $ flip (M.!) <=< flip (M.!)
17:08:12	<lambdabot>	Ord c => M.Map c c -> c -> c
17:09:03	<c_wraith>	Ok, it's not an exact fit, because (M.!) is a function you really shouldn't be using
17:10:01	<c_wraith>	But other than that, it's actually practical
17:10:28	<c_wraith>	But it needs three flips to make the types line up
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17:10:54	<c_wraith>	Because of the influence of currying on argument order, I think that's going to be common
17:11:04	<c_wraith>	which makes that just... not so useful
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17:19:16	<[Leary]>	That's the equivalent of Kleisli composition for Applicative, btw. If `Monad f` is just a `Category (Kleisli f)`, then `Applicative f` is just `Category c => Category (AppArr f c)` where `newtype AppArr f c a b = AppArr (f (c a b))`.
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17:20:41	<[Leary]>	But I wonder why I only see Kleisly and Cokleisli arrows, no AppArr or `newtype FunArr f c a b = FunArr (c (f a) (f b))`.
17:20:49	<[Leary]>	Kleisli*
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17:25:03	<kaol>	Is there an coquip for comonads like "just a monoid in the category of endofunctors"?
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17:25:20	<dolio>	They are comonoids.
17:25:27	<monochrom>	:)
17:26:09	<kaol>	Well of course.
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17:27:56	<c_wraith>	comonoids make my head hurt
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17:28:40	<c_wraith>	a -> (a, a) is... a difficult type to work with.
17:28:48	<monochrom>	kaol: Do you already know that "the function instance" (->) r is known as the covariant hom functor in category theory texts?
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17:29:58	<c_wraith>	in particular, a -> (a, a) just has too many possible implementations. what is it that it actually should be doing?
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17:30:20	<monochrom>	Hey! The diagonal functor D a = a -> (a,a) taught me everything I needed to know about the (->) Bool monad!
17:30:52	<monochrom>	But isn't \x -> (x,x) the only possible terminating implementation?
17:30:56	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	so i am on an up-to-date ubuntu install, i have installed build-essential, i have gcc installed, but when i cabal build a fresh project i get this error:
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17:31:01	<dolio>	It's copying the input. You'd realize that's significant if you hadn't embraced the lies of non-linear logic.
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17:31:11	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	error: cannot find -lgmp
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17:31:45	<monochrom>	OK I embrace the lies of both non-linear logic and classical logic, yeah :)
17:32:01	<EvanR>	we should upgrade to the lies of linear logic
17:32:02	<geekosaur>	segfaultfizzbuzz, libgmp-dev
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17:32:06	<dolio>	The other operation is discarding, which is also non-linear.
17:32:41	<monochrom>	If a linear-typed solution is sought for a->(a,a) then nevermind me!
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17:33:14	<c_wraith>	oh. for a polymorphic type, yes. but I was thinking about the polytypic case, where it's a member of a Comonoid class
17:33:14	<kaol>	segfaultfizzbuzz: Many Haskell libraries use C libraries if you are building them yourself, you'll need to grab one if you see errors like that.
17:33:14	<geekosaur>	which is not part of build-essential because C doesn't support bignums directly, so doesn't need GMP
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17:33:22	<dolio>	And Russel's paradox is caused by all sets being comonoids in naive set theory.
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17:33:35	<monochrom>	Ah Comonoid.
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17:34:02	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	geekosaur: thanks... now i am fighting this linker error: undefined reference to 'tttzm0zi1zi0zi0zminplace_V2_zdtcV2_closure'
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17:35:02	<c_wraith>	so like [a] -> ([a], [a])? even with an appeal to a law that it's an inverse of (++), it's severely underdefined.
17:35:41	<dolio>	It needs to be associative and have a unit.
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17:36:06	<dolio>	It can only do one thing given the usual monoidal structure on sets/types.
17:36:36	<monochrom>	So, even with Monoid, even with Bool being an instance, you have like at least 4 choices for what <> does. It is almost always a given that there is a lot of freedom.
17:36:41	<geekosaur>	sounds like you forgot to add a file to one of exposed-modules/other-modules
17:36:59	<monochrom>	Only Functor and sometimes Monad are such that there is at most 1 solution.
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17:37:10	<geekosaur>	(the "zminplace" tells me this is part of the module you're trying to build/link)
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17:38:47	<sm>	g'day all. libera -> matrix bridging is working again after a multi-day outage
17:38:53	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	geekosaur: ok that turned out to be correct but (1) gosh this could have been a much better error message and (2) i'm not using that module in my Main.hs
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17:39:36	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	like, i think that module is internal to one of my library source files
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17:40:16	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	sm: so basically you are saying that we are being jacked in to the matrix today?
17:40:21	<geekosaur>	you might think about how that error message could be made any better. (generally, it can't as only the linker knows it's needed and the linker doesn't speak Haskell, it speaks C)
17:40:50	<sm>	jacked back in after a temporary outage caused by Agents, yes
17:41:26	<geekosaur>	a whole-program compiler could produce better errors, but it could generally also only handle very simple programs unless you had a lot of memory
17:43:05	<monochrom>	Hey even with [a] you can make a Monoid with xs<>ys = ys++xs, too.
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17:49:29	<c_wraith>	> let insertTwice a b = flip $ flip (M.insert a) <=< flip (M.insert b) in insertTwice 1 2 'a' M.empty -- kaol: here you go. contrived as heck, but it doesn't use unsafe functions!
17:49:30	<lambdabot>	fromList [(1,'a'),(2,'a')]
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17:54:21	<c_wraith>	but yeah. I'm sticking with (<=<) having the wrong argument order to be really useful with the function instance
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17:59:13	<mjrosenb>	so, is anyone familiar with ghcjs, and why it would appear to produce a stack overflow when I try to link some programs?
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18:09:20	<gay9>	https://wiki.haskell.org/Applications_and_libraries/GUI_libraries#FranTk
18:09:20	<gay9>	fortunately it's not disappeared: https://distcache.freebsd.org/ports-distfiles/FranTk1_1.tar.gz https://web.archive.org/web/20040315212530/http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/~meurig/FranTk/
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18:09:37	<gay9>	as a bonus https://web.archive.org/web/20070204071125/http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/~meurig/TclHaskell/
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18:12:03	<mjrosenb>	oh... I had to bump the memory that ghc was allowed to use
18:12:07	<mjrosenb>	1 gig wasn't enough
18:12:11	<mjrosenb>	4 gigs was?
18:12:12	<gay9>	both of those are too old to build with modern ghc of course (does it really support haskell98, haskell2010 and haskell2020 standards?), but it's not late to revive those
18:12:40	<mjrosenb>	this is not distressing at all
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18:15:53	<monochrom>	mjrosenb: Even with x86-64 GHC, sometimes 1G is not enough either, I have seen it wanting 2G.
18:16:50	<monochrom>	This depends on what is being compiled of course. IIRC when building some hardcore libraries such as vector.
18:18:03	<mjrosenb>	this is using uhhh.... miso, and commonmark
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18:20:14	<monochrom>	gay9: Haskell2020 does not exist. Modern GHC supports Haskell2010. It also supports Haskell98 minus old module names such as List and Monad.
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18:21:07	<monochrom>	However, the compiler is the least of the problem. An old library demands other old libraries. That's the realy problem.
18:21:17	<mjrosenb>	The html in this manual was created with Microsoft Word, and so has some Microsoft specific stuff in it
18:21:20	<mjrosenb>	lol.
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18:22:18	<monochrom>	The Word team is incompetent.
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18:26:18	<gay9>	monochrom: I've seen `haskell98`, `haskell2010` and `haskell2020` packages on hackage and they all cannot be build because they demand old `base` package, so if there are packages that use only what's available in Haskell98/Haskell2010 then which versions of libraries built into ghc they need to state in *.cabal or stack.yaml files to make sure they'll always build?
18:27:49	<gay9>	libraries break compatibility too often to be able to keep up
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18:28:29	<davean>	IME the "compatibility breaks" are rare and usually trivial
18:29:29	<davean>	I updated something from GHC 8.6.5 to 9.4 Friday and it took less than 2 hours, most of that setup time and dealing with the fact I didn't remember the project at all.
18:29:37	<monochrom>	I have a feeling that those packages are for the record rather than for actual use.
18:30:34	<davean>	There was one major change related to 'random' which caused nock-on changes to RVar but it made the overall code in my project better
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18:33:24	<davean>	So thats a minimum of 3 years of updates for like a 10k LOC project with over 50 direct dependencies, and if I can't spend less than an hour a year average updating it, well how useful could it be?
18:34:32	<davean>	(and its more likely it was 4 years because 8.6.1 came out a lot longer ago)
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18:36:07	<monochrom>	I argue that "what to state in *.cabal or stack.yaml for only haskell98 or haskell2010" is an oxymoron.
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18:36:41	<monochrom>	Haskell2010 does not specify *.cabal, stack.yaml, the package name "base", or any notion of package at all.
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18:37:40	<gay9>	so, in that case they simply don't state any dependencies?
18:38:00	<geekosaur>	??
18:38:01	<monochrom>	You can depend on base.
18:38:24	<monochrom>	This is evolving into an XY problem.
18:38:58	<monochrom>	"There is an old library I want to build today. I think this problem can be solved by requiring people to stick to Haskell2010."
18:39:20	<monochrom>	Not going to happen.
18:39:29	<gay9>	that's not what I said
18:39:31	<geekosaur>	I'm not even convinced they know what they're talking about…
18:39:41	<geekosaur>	confusing a language level with libraries
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18:40:13	<monochrom>	You have FranTk, you examine what actual incompatibility is with today's ecosystem, you fix exactly that, not any more general problem.
18:41:12	<monochrom>	geekosaur: I wish I could say that. Except that https://hackage.haskell.org/package/haskell2020 actually exists. That is going to be confusing.
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18:42:37	<geekosaur>	I have trouble treating that as anything but someone's wishful thinking, since there is no such thing as haskell2020 and we knew that back in 2017
18:42:41	<gay9>	plus `haskell98` and `haskell2010` packages just like `base` are maintained by libraries@haskell.org but they depend on old `base`
18:43:09	<monochrom>	Well, that would be hvr's wishful thinking, and it's as late as 2018 haha.
18:43:10	<gay9>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/haskell98 https://hackage.haskell.org/package/haskell2010
18:43:22	<geekosaur>	\and in any case I don't think any of them are relevant. base is relevant. I'[m betting I can;t find any packages that depend on any of your boojums
18:44:11	<monochrom>	That's why I believe that those packages are just for the record.
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18:44:35	<davean>	geekosaur: its just a typo, its supposed to be haskell2030
18:44:45	<monochrom>	If one day someone reads the Haskell2010 Report and then ask "where can I see sample code for Prelude" you can point them to that hackage URL.
18:44:57	<monochrom>	Apart from that, no one actually uses it.
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18:45:23	<geekosaur>	actually packdeps says there's 7 users of haskell2010 and 213 users of haskell98
18:45:30	<geekosaur>	color me surprised either is used
18:45:40	<geekosaur>	but especially haskell2010
18:45:54	<monochrom>	Yeah haskell98 was actually useful for a little while during the transition from "import List" to "import Data.List".
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18:46:29	<geekosaur>	ah, backward compat packages
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18:46:43	<geekosaur>	so, no reason for either to be used in 2022
18:46:56	<monochrom>	Because if you didn't want to bother to change your import line, GHC offered the haskell98 package you can add to your *.cabal "depends:", and then you could keep your "import List".
18:47:35	<gay9>	`import package` instead of `import Module` would be a great compatibility breaking improvement, considering there are packages that can't coexists because of naming conflicts
18:47:50	<geekosaur>	PackageImports extension
18:47:56	<monochrom>	But the haskell2010 package was never even advertised at all. By that time every Haskell2010 users used base.
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18:48:22	<monochrom>	Consider the fact that even GHC didn't come with it.
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18:49:23	<davean>	gay9: we have that ...
18:49:32	<davean>	gay9: its not compatability breaking?
18:50:00	<monochrom>	See? This is really the XY problem I described, despite denial.
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18:50:30	<davean>	Yes, very much it is
18:50:53	<monochrom>	"I just want to build FranTk. I think it can be solved by demanding you people to improve backward compatibility."
18:51:08	<davean>	I bet I could build FranTk right now
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18:51:28	<monochrom>	Either that or they didn't really want to compile anything, they just want to complain about incompatibility.
18:51:39	<geekosaur>	they must hate go
18:51:48	<geekosaur>	or rust for that matter
18:52:11	<davean>	Did they say why they wanted to build FranTk BTW?
18:52:42	<geekosaur>	not that I saw
18:52:50	<davean>	Its a very weird thing to want to build
18:53:01	<geekosaur>	just opened with pointers to it as if they were doing a public service
18:53:18	<monochrom>	FranTk contained interesting ideas that I can respect someone being interested in it.
18:53:39	<gay9>	besides those ideas I really like Tcl/Tk
18:53:54	<monochrom>	Although I'm disgusted by the prospect of getting Tk involved.
18:55:50	<monochrom>	I accepted Tk for a little while when I was learning OCaml and its only GUI option was OCamlTk or something.
18:57:17	<davean>	It looks like frantk was last updated on 20 September 1999
18:57:47	<monochrom>	Hell, s/accepted/made peace with/ # As Cersei Lannister evilly points out, you make peace with only your enemies.
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18:58:44	<davean>	It looks like the bigger issue than Haskell is TCL
18:58:52	<monochrom>	heh
18:58:53	<davean>	(and system headers)
18:58:55	<darkling>	Tk is one of two windowing APIs I've ever got on with. (The other is RiscOS)
18:59:05	<davean>	the Haskell part of the code looks close to building
18:59:12	<davean>	I'm not sure I can fix the TCL part
18:59:14	<davean>	IRONY
18:59:28	<monochrom>	Just add more spaces? >:)
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19:00:20	<monochrom>	OK nevermind that.
19:00:42	<davean>	No, the TCL libraries are too drifted to link and such, and I can't build the 1999 version of TCL on a modern system
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19:00:50	<davean>	I've built some of the haskell code without any issue
19:00:59	<davean>	(or just renaming imports)
19:01:37	<gay9>	davean: thanks for extension, but I remember cabal failing to install packages that have modules with same names, making it impossible for them to coexist
19:01:44	<davean>	There is a SMALL Haskell problem with the StgTSO reference, but I think that code will still work
19:01:53	<gay9>	so removing `import Module` entirely would allow such packages to coexist
19:01:54	<davean>	gay9: nope
19:02:01	<davean>	gay9: you're just wrong and ignorant
19:02:16	<davean>	Thats never been the case, the issue only occures at import and there is a syntax to disambiguate it
19:02:38	<davean>	import "package"
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19:04:44	<gay9>	I can't remember which exactly packages I tried to installed, but error from cabal was like "can't install packagex because ModuleW is provided by packagey"
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19:05:02	<davean>	https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/package_qualified_imports.html
19:05:12	<gay9>	that literally was caused by running `cabal install packagey` and then `cabal install packagex`
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19:05:34	<davean>	also https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/packages.html#package-thinning-and-renaming
19:05:38	<davean>	depending on how you want to deal with it
19:06:04	<davean>	gay9: so you could get an issue with ghc-pkg not with cabal
19:06:30	<davean>	cabal can't know enough about whats in a package to have this issue
19:06:39	<davean>	cabal just builds things
19:07:43	<davean>	runnign the cabal command might cause the problem to be encountered but the issue isn't ever at the cabal level
19:07:50	<davean>	because cabal is more like make
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19:10:52	<olle>	I'm making a transpiler from <source lang> to C. I'd like to represent kinds of types in the syntax tree, like some are value types that can be copied (int and some structs), others are reference types.
19:11:03	<gay9>	in that case ghc-pkg is like trying use C headers defining variables/functions/constant with same name?
19:11:43	<davean>	sorta, which is why you need the import "package" qualifier to disambiguate the namespace
19:11:44	<olle>	Would you just do `data Kind = Ref \| Val`
19:12:38	<olle>	And then `data Ty = Int \| Struct {kind :: Kind}` or such?
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19:22:16	<gay9>	hm, that's too much bureaucracy, but: import qualified "network" Network.Socket as Sock
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19:39:58	<mastarija>	Does anyone perhaps know what is the chunk size in bytes used by Wai Request?
19:40:52	<mastarija>	I want to use `getRequestBodyChunk` to read a limited amout of data from a Request, e.g <400KB
19:40:58	<mastarija>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/wai-3.2.3/docs/Network-Wai.html#v:getRequestBodyChunk
19:40:59	<n1essa>	is there not a standard cube root function in haskell? (i found cbrt in altfloat, but it doesn't seem to work anymore and hasn't been updated since 2010)
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19:42:08	<mastarija>	n1essa: 2 ** (-3)?
19:42:33	<n1essa>	oh jeez, that's easy, idk why i didn't think to do that
19:43:46	<mastarija>	:)
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19:43:52	<n1essa>	thank you :)
19:43:56	<mastarija>	np
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19:45:56	<mjrosenb>	htm, with the commonmark html type, there's no way of processing the output as a collection of html elements, is there?
19:46:10	<mjrosenb>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/commonmark-0.2.2/docs/Commonmark-Html.html#t:Html
19:46:17	<geekosaur>	shouldn't that have been 2 ** (1/3)?
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19:49:34	<mastarija>	geekosaur: yes, probably :)
19:50:02	<n1essa>	yea, thanks y'all
19:50:05	<mastarija>	this resulted in (1/2)**3
19:50:13	<mastarija>	Brain fart on my end
19:55:10	<gay9>	olle: I might give you a bad advice, as I've written basic interpreter one year ago (I lost its code) here's the code I'd start with:
19:55:10	<gay9>	data Type = Ref String \| Int \| Double \| Structure [Type]
19:55:10	<gay9>	type Refs = [(String, Ty)]
19:55:42	<gay9>	by "basic" I mean the language BASIC
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19:58:21	<gay9>	type Refs = [(String, Type)]
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20:02:00	<olle>	gay9: Right :)
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20:20:06	<gay9>	olle: I missed the fact that structures also need the field names, but that's not so hard: data Type = Ref String \| Int \| Double \| Structure Refs
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20:39:15	<olle>	gay9: Yeah sure, I omitted that to simplify
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23:42:51	<sshine>	hi. I'm trying to evaluate some of my own code that appears to hang for very simple input.
23:43:44	<sshine>	https://gist.github.com/sshine/89367a6886414c56a5b766ba204b5de5 -- I tried to run the code by hand and must surely be skipping something that GHCi is happily repeating infinitely.
23:44:37	<sshine>	I tried to include the relevant parts. for the actual code, it's 'translate [ADD]': https://github.com/sshine/evm-opcodes/blob/main/src/EVM/Opcode/Labelled.hs#L66
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23:49:00	<[Leary]>	sshine: I suggest a trace/M at the start of each major function body, just printing the function name and its input. Though it's "just printf debugging", ime it's shockingly effective for "I can't figure out why this loops".
23:49:42	<monochrom>	printf debugging has always been effective.
23:50:14	<monochrom>	To me, more advanced debuggers are shockingly ineffective.
23:50:22	<darkling>	Agreed
23:50:46	<[Leary]>	Yeah, that's why I quote. I don't really know what the people who say that are thinking.
23:53:02	<sshine>	[Leary], I'll do that.
23:53:42	<hpc>	it's pretty obvious why if you realize debugging has never been about interacting with a running program, it's always been about just gathering runtime information
23:54:10	<hpc>	and the only universal way to get that information is to print it
23:54:23	<hpc>	since debuggers have to be language-specific to interact with the program at a high enough level to be usable
23:55:35	<hpc>	if you ever look for talks about the true potential of debuggers and such, you'll find that the unique features of them is stuff like pausing the program to rewrite a function on the fly and then resume it
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23:58:04	<hpc>	as it turns out, there's another tool that lets you write code on the fly, print values on demand at runtime, and step through code:
23:58:07	<hpc>	a repl!
23:58:19	<darkling>	Time-travel features are common as well -- but that's just collecting lots of runtime information and showing it in a different way. (And possibly collecting too much information for the problem at hand)
23:59:14	<hpc>	yeah, that way lies problems like no longer being able to debug your large program in the first place

All times are in UTC on 2022-09-12.