Logs on 2022-09-13 (liberachat/#haskell)

00:00:28	<hpc>	this is probably why ghci has so many traditional debugging features, too
00:00:35	<monochrom>	But a REPL doesn't let you hotplug code like that. GHC, OCaml, and Racket don't. Only Clojure does.
00:01:07	<hpc>	monochrom: not in a way that mutates existing expressions
00:01:27	<hpc>	but i can certainly type "foo = first definition; test foo; foo = second definition; test foo"
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00:03:06	<hpc>	and if all my function definitions were IORefs the way they are in typical languages, i would be able to hotplug code exactly like that
00:03:31	<hpc>	it's monkeypatching as a language feature that does it, not as a debugging feature
00:04:18	<monochrom>	That's an interesting idea right there.
00:04:50	<jackdk>	hot code loading + strong typing seems really hard, but Unison managed it somehow
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00:08:17	<hpc>	monochrom: yeah, it took me a while to figure it out too, from wondering why i could never figure out the value of actually using a debugger
00:08:56	<sshine>	oh... eh... what... my tests don't fail.
00:09:20	<hpc>	i kept seeing people say "just spend some time learning how to use the tools", but never saw anyone say what they did that i couldn't do with just editing my code a bit
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00:09:39	<hpc>	so i gave it the old feynman process step 2, and this is what i came up with :D
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00:12:10	<sm>	sshine: I'm a big fan of building in observability like [Leary] said, but there's also this tool that's in between logging and an interactive debugger: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/breakpoint
00:12:28	<hpc>	bah, apparently there's another feynman process with different steps - mine is "step 1, write down the problem, step 2, think really hard, step 3, write down the solution"
00:12:44	<monochrom>	That's the one I know.
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00:13:29	<monochrom>	My exams can be solved by "1. read the question carefully, 2. think really hard, 3. write down one line of code" :)
00:14:15	<hpc>	i like those sorts of exams
00:14:27	<hpc>	way back when, one of my professors did exams a lot like that
00:14:43	<hpc>	if you had really mastered the material, you finished the final in 5 minutes with a perfect score
00:15:14	<hpc>	if you had enough of a foundation to figure it out as you went, you finished pretty close to the time limit with a perfect score
00:15:24	<hpc>	and so on and so on
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00:23:23	<sshine>	hm. my test suite is OK with >> L.translate [STOP] `shouldBe` Right [STOP] << and >> L.translate [ADD] `shouldNotBe` Right [SUB] <<, but if I make a false test, like >> L.translate [ADD] `shouldBe` Right [SUB] <<, it'll recurse forever.
00:23:34	<sshine>	that seems less good of my test.
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00:28:57	sshine	goes back in history to see when this didn't crash and burn.
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00:39:56	<dragestil>	how do you decode multiple json objects from a string with aeson? i'm getting Nothing from decode "{\"title\": \"hello\"}{\"title\": \"bye\"}" :: Maybe Value or decode "{\"title\": \"hello\"}{\"title\": \"bye\"}" :: Maybe [Value]
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00:44:09	<c_wraith>	dragestil: you're going to have to work with the Parser directly
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00:44:37	<c_wraith>	dragestil: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/attoparsec-0.14.4/docs/Data-Attoparsec-ByteString.html#t:Parser
00:44:47	<dragestil>	c_wraith: ok thanks
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00:45:04	<jackdk>	The parsers live in `Data.Aeson.Parser`
00:45:42	<c_wraith>	well. there's also https://hackage.haskell.org/package/aeson-2.1.0.0/docs/Data-Aeson.html#v:json
00:46:36	<c_wraith>	But yeah, you're going to have to use attoparsec with one of those parsers, run it until you get a Done, then keep going with the remaining input
00:47:54	<jackdk>	I didn't realise that it was exported from there too. Thanks c_wraith
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01:13:15	<sshine>	haha
01:13:53	<sshine>	now I understand why positive and negative tests don't fail, but an intentionally failing test loops infinitely: the error is in the pretty-printer.
01:14:21	<sshine>	the correct tests will just say "OK", and the failing test will try to print the bad example :-D
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01:56:54	<sshine>	well, that was a learning experience. I made a small list of all the quirky things I've done since this regression occurred and wasn't detected that made finding the bug harder.
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02:32:06	<fmgornick>	?src map
02:32:06	<lambdabot>	map _ [] = []
02:32:06	<lambdabot>	map f (x:xs) = f x : map f xs
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02:34:56	<fmgornick>	?src concatMap
02:34:56	<lambdabot>	concatMap f = foldr ((++) . f) []
02:36:11	<EvanR>	?src concat
02:36:11	<lambdabot>	concat = foldr (++) []
02:37:18	<fmgornick>	bruh i got no idea how any of this irc stuff works
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02:38:27	<EvanR>	what, the bot?
02:38:51	<EvanR>	no one knows how lambdabot works
02:39:10	<EvanR>	other than "just fine thanks"
02:41:14	<fmgornick>	haha yeah lambdabot cool but i still don't even know how i managed to get here with the whole irc client stuff
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02:49:04	<sm>	sshine: nice
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03:00:42	<jackdk>	@botsnack
03:00:42	<lambdabot>	:)
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03:22:04	<sshine>	sm, my list of bitter hindsights: 1. make every commit on master executable (testable, runnable), 2. when you move a file, don't make small subtle changes in the same commit, 3. don't use overlapping instances, 4. test `show`.
03:22:51	<sshine>	sm, they're all things I'd say "why, of course not!" -- but evidently this was not true of me if I go even just a handful of years back.
03:23:58	<sm>	I'd find 1 and 2 tough discipline... is that to make bisecting easier ?
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03:34:01	<mjrosenb>	how did overlapping instances fit into these hijinks?
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03:43:16	<sshine>	mjrosenb, I have this type, Opcode' j, for which Opcode' () had its own Show instance. all other Opcode' j instances had a recursive one that depended on the Opcode' () one. through some dark combination of {-# OVERLAP... #-} and FlexibleInstances, this sorta worked until I... orphaned the Opcode' () instance by moving it into the file I'd reserved for all the Opcode' ()-specific stuff. this made it stop
03:43:22	<sshine>	working as a base case. instead, the recursively defined, which used 'void :: Functor f => f a -> f ()', started going into infinite recursion because the recursive case depended on the recursive case.
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03:43:53	<sshine>	mjrosenb, I think... you only go this wrong if you kinda try to do all the bad things. overlapping instances + flexible instances + orphan instances, hahaha.
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03:46:28	<sshine>	mjrosenb, also, this was broken since December 2020, since everything I did on this library was bump versions / dependency bounds. the tests didn't catch it, because they didn't cover 'show'. and nobody used the library. until apparently today when someone opened a ticket.
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03:47:50	<sshine>	sm, yeah, I basically couldn't figure out what the problem was through print debugging (I was sure it had to do with this fixpoint function), so I just started bisecting from the last time I did an actual, logical change to a function and the library worked.
03:48:48	<sm>	fun !
03:48:49	<sshine>	sm, incidentally, the commit just before the commit that broke this didn't compile properly; so I ended up replicating that commit minus the breakage.
03:49:17	<sshine>	sm, had it compiled, I'd have quickly found out it wasn't that commit.
03:49:45	<sshine>	sm, if I wanna break something halfway through, I should do it in a branch and merge it once it stops breaking. :-D
03:50:38	<sm>	indeed. Mine usually do pass tests, but quite possibly the one time I break the rule it will trip me up
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03:55:01	<sshine>	hm. apparently Stackage is still on text-1.2.5.0?
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07:57:24	<dminuoso>	I recall GHC has an extension to quality an import with a package name (in case of conflicting module names across packages), but I cant figure out what to look for in the manual.
07:57:28	<dminuoso>	Does someone have a pointer for me?
07:57:47	<geekosaur>	PackageImports
07:57:51	<dminuoso>	Ah thanks!
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09:03:40	<irfan>	if there is an ambigous phantom type variable, like `data T a = T Int deriving Show`, is it correct to say that it would always be defaulted to `GHC.Type.Any` during compilation, in a context like, `print (T 1)`?
09:04:00	<dminuoso>	irfan: No
09:05:01	<dminuoso>	Oh hold on, I think I may have misread what you meant by GHC.Type.Any
09:07:18	<dminuoso>	irfan: Yes.
09:07:24	<dminuoso>	You can observe this with -ddump-simpl
09:07:36	<dminuoso>	main :: IO () [GblId] main = print @(T GHC.Types.Any) (Main.$fShowT @GHC.Types.Any) (Main.T @GHC.Types.Any (GHC.Types.I# 1#))
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09:10:36	<irfan>	dminuoso: thanks a lot for answering.
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09:52:42	<kuribas>	isn't type defaulting only done in ghci?
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09:53:14	<kuribas>	So a phantom type needs to be instantiated in ghc.
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09:53:40	<geekosaur>	there's ExtendedDefaultRules, but there is also GHC.Types.Any
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09:55:15	<geekosaur>	I think ghc knows how to use the latter when the result can't affect type resolution
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09:57:55	<kuribas>	> length []
09:57:57	<lambdabot>	0
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10:27:05	<int-e>	> length (1,2)
10:27:07	<lambdabot>	1
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10:40:08	<kuribas>	what's so nice about haskell is that it is predictable and easy to reason about.
10:41:17	dminuoso	stares at this haskell code and is trying really hard to reason about how and why the GHC is able to twist it to the point of being nearly as fast as handwritten primops code
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10:41:58	<kuribas>	dminuoso: which code?
10:42:02	<kuribas>	it's magick :)
10:42:11	<dminuoso>	Pretty sure its not using imagemagick
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10:43:19	<kuribas>	dminuoso: you could look at the core and stg and each separate optimization step.
10:43:37	<kuribas>	it's only some 30 or so :)
10:44:10	<dminuoso>	That are heavily intertwined and run many times.
10:44:14	<dminuoso>	:)
10:45:01	<dminuoso>	The GHC simplifier is the result of an organically executed genetic algorithm.
10:45:37	<int-e>	But GHC doesn't make the {-# RULES #-}
10:46:34	<kuribas>	I wonder how a compiler compares to a symbolic algebra system, since both are rewrite systems...
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11:09:46	<qrpnxz>	I've been investigating methods of selecting effect instances in a monad stack, and it occur to me that if instead of parameterizing on the monad, we parameterize on the transformer, then it becomes simple, because then you simply `lift` to the transformer you care about.
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11:11:03	<maralorn>	Will there be an online stream for the https://www.haskell.org/haskell-symposium/2022/index.html ?
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11:20:53	<dminuoso>	qrpnxz: What do you mean by "parametrize on the transformer"?
11:24:21	<qrpnxz>	dminuoso: I'm playing around with something like this: class (MonadTrans t, Monad m, Monad (t m)) => StringWriter t m where write :: String -> t m ()
11:24:56	<qrpnxz>	so a func that uses this would look like `StringWriter t m => a -> b -> t m c`
11:25:48	<qrpnxz>	if you used more than one you'd have like `(StringWriter w1 _, StringWriter w2 _) => a -> b -> w1 (w2 m) c`
11:25:52	<dminuoso>	Why do you need the MonadTrans here anyway?
11:26:00	<dminuoso>	It seems.. useless?
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11:26:21	<qrpnxz>	do you consider the Monad constraint in MonadIO useless?
11:26:37	<qrpnxz>	sure, you can do without
11:28:07	<dminuoso>	qrpnxz: In case of MonadIO it is because there's additional laws that need to be satisfied.
11:28:19	<dminuoso>	Which by themselves already impose a monad constraint.
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11:29:21	<dminuoso>	But Im not sure how StringWriter could potentially benefit from it. In fact, it makes it less useful because you can only use it on transformers - but I doubt this relationship is necessary at all for StringWriter to work.
11:29:22	<qrpnxz>	well i'd imagine you'd have some laws here too idk. The point is that you pick the instance by just lifting
11:29:57	<dminuoso>	Sure, but you dont need MonadTrans as a superclass here.
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11:30:15	<dminuoso>	Being able to lift is orthogonal to "writing a string", no?
11:30:37	<dminuoso>	Consider, if you have a handcrafted monad `newtype MyMonad a = ...`, you couldnt possibly make it an instance of StringWriter
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11:30:50	<qrpnxz>	i have conceded you can do without. I can just add the constraint at use site
11:31:13	<dminuoso>	Which seems silly, since if you have some `T M` that would be valid, a `newtype Q a = Q (T M a)` suddenly would not be valid anymore
11:31:17	<qrpnxz>	well that could work too, you just make the transformer IdentityT
11:31:28	<dminuoso>	Winning you.. nothing.
11:31:29	<qrpnxz>	but then you don't have flexibility on the m
11:31:38	<dminuoso>	Except inconveniening yourself
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11:32:22	<qrpnxz>	the way i'm testing using it is all extra functionality goes on the `t`, but i have that `m` as a parameter too so that you can delegate to the base monad for MonadIO for example
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11:33:05	<qrpnxz>	so i have for example `instance MonadIO m => Writer MyWriter m where ...`
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11:33:33	<qrpnxz>	where MyWriter is `ReaderT (IORef String) m`
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11:34:03	<qrpnxz>	but you can do MutVar and PrimMonad, or StateT and any monad
11:35:31	<qrpnxz>	the other thing i'm playing with is using a proxy value and passing that to the methods. Works better because you just pass the proxy for the one you want, nothing like (lift . lift . lift . lift) could every happen, but it requires creating pass-through instances
11:35:54	<qrpnxz>	whereas this uses more general lifting capabilities
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11:36:36	<dminuoso>	That's nothing new. You obtain that by just having mtl-style typeclasses
11:36:42	<dminuoso>	See MonadState
11:36:48	<dminuoso>	The lifting happens automatically via instances
11:36:56	<dminuoso>	Except there's on obscure MonadTrans demand
11:37:16	<qrpnxz>	MonadState does not have a type tag to pick instance, this is something different, but does work similar to those normal mtl classes
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11:37:38	<dminuoso>	I dont understand what you mean by "tag to pick instance"
11:37:41	<qrpnxz>	this second method doesn't do the parameterized monadtrans
11:37:44	<qrpnxz>	one sec
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11:38:32	<qrpnxz>	it looks like this `class Writer t m where write :: p s -> String -> m ()` and your run function would look like `runWriter :: (forall s. Proxy s -> MyWriter s a) -> m a`
11:38:56	<lortabac>	there was a library that did something similar, that is mtl + phantom type to select the instance
11:39:27	<qrpnxz>	`p s` should read `p t`, sorry
11:40:27	<lortabac>	I can't find it anymore, it was called something like 'ether'
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11:43:21	<qrpnxz>	I found one blog post that talk about doing something similar, so it likely may be in a library out there somewhere for sure.
11:43:35	<lortabac>	apparently it's deprecated
11:43:38	<lortabac>	@hackage ether
11:43:38	<lambdabot>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ether
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11:44:11	dminuoso	finds himself disliking effect systems more and more
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11:47:32	<qrpnxz>	if the method just look like `o -> String -> IO ()`, there be no problem. This is what you have in Java, but in the search for that extra power to thread other kind of monadic effects through the code and just be more general then we get mtl style, and more.
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11:50:10	<dminuoso>	qrpnxz: I generally just have some `ReaderT Env IO`. If I need mutability, I keep IORef's in that Env. If I need custom sequencing logic, I invent custom operators >\|>, and so forth.
11:50:37	<dminuoso>	The brilliant thing about sticking to ReaderT and isomorphic things is being able to MonadUnliftIO
11:50:47	<dminuoso>	It keeps things simple, understandable, communicatable
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11:56:14	<qrpnxz>	lortabac: ohhh, i like that. I see how it works.
11:56:44	<qrpnxz>	yeah, ReaderT pretty good
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12:16:49	<tdammers>	yeah, so, the general idea is that if your monad stack involves IO, then you already have exceptions, mutability, concurrency, and, well, IO, covered, so there's not much use adding ExceptT and StateT and such into the mix
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12:18:18	<maerwald[m]>	tdammers: ExceptT allows to distinguish between expected and unexpected exceptions to a degree
12:19:21	<tdammers>	I've never been a fan of the "expected/unexpected exception" terminology. If it's expected, then it's not really an exception, just a program state that requires a short-circuiting code path maybe.
12:19:45	<maerwald[m]>	Yes
12:19:54	<maerwald[m]>	ExceptT is not an exception
12:19:56	<maerwald[m]>	It's an Either
12:20:01	<tdammers>	I mean, the only reasonably objective distinction you can make is "exceptions that we can handle" and "exceptions that we can't/won't handle"
12:20:30	<maerwald[m]>	You catch the exceptions and turn them into values
12:20:31	<tdammers>	Also that, yes. Should have called it EitherT (which I believe also exists somewhere out there)
12:21:09	<maerwald[m]>	So your own API boundaries can be expected to not throw true exceptions. And if they do, all is lost
12:21:17	<geekosaur>	there was a decision that Either/EitherT is agnostic (that is, a Left is as valid as a Right), iirc
12:21:46	<geekosaur>	whereas ExceptT considers Right a value and Left an exception
12:21:47	<tdammers>	IMO the "valid" part is interpretation.
12:22:31	<tdammers>	The right bias of Either/EitherT/ExceptT however is an emergent property, not a matter of decision-making.
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12:25:45	<tdammers>	It follows from how the right type argument is the last one in the type constructor (Either a b), so the Functor, Applicative and Monad instances of Either have to use Right as return, not Left. And by extension, the same goes for both EitherT and ExceptT
12:29:33	<maerwald[m]>	The only alternative is testing all exceptions branches and then keep your documentation in sync with your tests
12:29:39	<qrpnxz>	I think of ExceptT more as either for temporarily working with Either returning functions nicely, or for a pure implementation of a generic error interface. I don't see a problem with mixing ExceptT and IO in the first case, but in the second, it's probably a waste of time.
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12:34:03	<dminuoso>	Sure, I mean using runMaybeT or runExceptT locally is really neat. I have a few places where it cleans up the code logic immensely. But those are usually limited to do-blocks of less than half a dozen lines.
12:34:27	<tdammers>	Exactly. It's fine for those, but it has no place in an AppM stack
12:36:03	<maerwald[m]>	tdammers: you mean like servants Handler xD
12:36:07	<maerwald[m]>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/servant-server-0.19.1/docs/Servant-Server-Internal-Handler.html#t:Handler
12:36:44	<dminuoso>	maerwald[m]: That's no problem. toHandler :: Logger -> StartupEnv -> FreyjaM a -> Handler a
12:36:56	<dminuoso>	genericServeTWithContext is a blessing
12:37:15	<dminuoso>	If you can survive its glorios type signature
12:37:23	<dminuoso>	genericServeTWithContext :: forall (routes :: * -> ) (m :: -> ) (ctx :: []) . (GenericServant routes (AsServerT m), GenericServant routes AsApi, HasServer (ToServantApi routes) ctx, HasContextEntry (ctx .++ DefaultErrorFormatters) ErrorFormatters, ServerT (ToServantApi routes) m ~ ToServant routes (AsServerT m)) => (forall a . m a -> Handler a) -> routes (AsServerT m) -> Context ctx ->
12:37:25	<dminuoso>	Application
12:38:03	<dminuoso>	If I had a chance to learn Haskell from scratch, I think I would avoid servant shrugs
12:38:35	<dminuoso>	By the way, what's the recommended way to identify whether or not the haskell program is running in an interactive shell?
12:38:54	<maerwald[m]>	I started to easily understand those type sigs when I stopped thinking they have anything declarative in them.
12:40:12	<dminuoso>	Yeah. I mean they are just an artifact of their internal machinery. You can essentially just ignore the entire context.
12:40:31	<dminuoso>	Then it becomes some opaqe: (forall a . m a -> Handler a) -> routes (AsServerT m) -> Context ctx -> Application
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12:40:42	<maerwald[m]>	I used to think there must be a design behind it
12:40:47	<maerwald[m]>	Until I read the servant code
12:41:01	<dminuoso>	It is a curious experiment like xmonad.
12:41:14	<maerwald[m]>	There's not too many way to do things on type level
12:41:28	<dminuoso>	Yup
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16:11:41	OpenSource	is now known as Linux
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16:41:17	<fmgornick>	?src foldl
16:41:18	<lambdabot>	foldl f z [] = z
16:41:18	<lambdabot>	foldl f z (x:xs) = foldl f (f z x) xs
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18:17:11	<Hecate>	heyo
18:17:21	<Hecate>	anyone coming to MuniHac 2022?
18:18:43	<geekosaur>	zero chance of my going to Munich 😞 I think Solid and maybe liskin are?
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20:15:06	<liskin>	I dunno. I'm already doing four flights in two weeks so going to Munihac seems irresponsible. Could use mental health as an excuse but no promises.
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22:42:22	<hippoid>	I'm trying to start a hakyll project using nix. After doing `nix-shell` and `stack ghci`, I can succesfully do a `import Hakyll`. But I don't have any of the hakyll executables, like hakyll-init. repo here: https://github.com/idrisr/stack-nix. What do I need to alter to get the hakyll executables?
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22:51:20	<[Leary]>	hippoid: I don't know hakyll, but it you can probably add something like `haskellPackages.hakyll` to `buildInputs`.
22:52:05	<hippoid>	i think i just needed to do `stack exec hakyll-init` cause that's working for me.
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22:55:13	<[Leary]>	There are a lot of different workflows when you're combining nix with stack or cabal; if it works for you, it works.
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22:55:47	<davean>	I've never gotten a nix+haskell workflow I like, haskell.nix isn't terrible but god why is it so bad?
22:56:16	<davean>	and I still don't know how to make it so stuff has access to zlib.out/zlib.dev for dynamic recompilation when it is installed on the system as a shell command I actually want to run but it needs to relink its self.
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23:01:25	<sm>	there's also #haskell.nix:libera.chat
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23:13:41	<jackdk>	davean: I never solved the zlib issues myself. If I need a shell that can build something that transitively depends on zlib, I use `haskellPackages.ghcWithPackages(p: [p.zlib])`
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23:16:22	<davean>	jackdk: yah but I need my normal shell to be able to do it to run commands that self-rebuild to generate optimal implimentations
23:16:42	<davean>	That means I have to alias every execution of that command to run inside a shell
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23:19:09	<jackdk>	As an extreme answer, you could put that ghc-with-zlib in environment.systemPackages? I am almost annoyed enough to try writing a pure haskell zlib. Almost.
23:19:31	<jackdk>	(I was considering wanting ghcjs-compiled zlib the other day for bad reasons)
23:21:06	<davean>	jackdk: mmm, I think one could make a very performant version if they tried. That isn't even the best implimentation of its self.
23:21:10	<davean>	But you'd lose a lot too
23:22:25	<davean>	Really this is a nix problem though
23:22:36	<davean>	their design philosophy has a few flaws in expectation
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23:29:56	<davean>	jackdk: you might be better vendoring a vendorable DEFLATE C implimentation
23:31:55	<jackdk>	davean: Could be. Though I'm more likely better of adding it to the pile of projects I'm yet to start and closing something else off ^^
23:32:00	<jackdk>	and/or finishing amazonka2
23:32:34	dsal	apologies for complaining about amazonka2 -- really like it, but builds got in my way today
23:33:10	<davean>	Is amazonka2 a thing? (I stay away from using AWS)
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23:33:53	<dsal>	Yeah, it's pretty nice. I've got a couple of programs making good use of it.
23:34:27	<davean>	That library, don't say such slander about AWS, they work hard to have that level of downtime!
23:34:51	<davean>	(I've litterly never encountered another host with as many issues)
23:35:48	<dsal>	My programs were mostly made when I had really bad connectivity and were built almost entirely around "everything is broken" so I don't really notice when they have issues.
23:36:10	<davean>	Ah well I serve to other people
23:36:18	<davean>	somewhere on the globe will notice when something is down
23:36:23	dsal	is self-serving
23:36:41	<dsal>	Where do you put stuff you expect people to be able to get?
23:37:32	<davean>	Various places. If you want a cloud GCP is MASSIVELY more stable and with a better network, otherwise theres like equinix metal if you want a lot of performance and bandwidth, but hell, I think Digital Ocean has better uptime than AWS
23:37:49	<dsal>	I've mostly only seen GCP from the inside, so that's a pretty scary thing to hear. heh
23:37:50	<davean>	Scale matters a lot for that decision
23:37:59	<davean>	dsal: Yah, isn't it?
23:38:34	<davean>	dsal: you can't even ping locally inside AWS for any period of time without packet loss
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23:38:43	<davean>	or at least extreme latency spikes
23:38:54	<hpc>	can't be that much scarier than what i have heard about us-east-1
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23:40:50	<[Leary]>	davean, jackdk: Re the zlib / shared libraries problem, have you seen this discussion? <https://discourse.nixos.org/t/shared-libraries-error-with-cabal-repl-in-nix-shell/8921/9>. For use in a system/profile install when the program needs to recompile itself, I suppose you'd use `makeWrapper` and set the env var in there instead.
23:42:29	<jackdk>	[Leary]: That's a cute trick with `LD_LIBRARY_PATH`
23:42:47	<davean>	[Leary]: oh!
23:42:52	<davean>	Thanks thats something to look at
23:43:08	<jackdk>	davean: Yeah I've been helping Brendan clean up and catch up amazonka to a bunch of newer services etc
23:44:29	<jean-paul[m]>	"I can't even set up a reproducible build environment where my software can rebuild itself at runtime against non-hermetic cross-language dependencies" biiiig fail there, haskell.nix, feel much shame.
23:44:50	<davean>	jean-paul[m]: I mean it assumes all the build is at installtime is the problem
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23:44:53	<davean>	thats not how things work
23:45:05	<davean>	building is part of the lifetime of a system
23:45:06	<jean-paul[m]>	davean: It is how a _lot_ of things work.
23:45:13	<davean>	jean-paul[m]: the most basic sure
23:45:22	<davean>	but its a very limited perspective
23:45:31	<jean-paul[m]>	Or really, it assumes all of the build is at build time. :)
23:45:53	<jean-paul[m]>	Sure, it is limited. A lot of limited tools do a good job. Show me an unlimited tool. :)
23:50:08	<[Leary]>	It's not like it can't support run-time rebuilds, but you /should/ expect to have to jump through more hoops to do so.
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All times are in UTC on 2022-09-13.