Logs on 2022-09-17 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:24:12 | <talismanick> | If stringsearch is preferred to RefSerialize for deserializing ByteString data from disk, is there a corresponding new serialization library? |
| 00:24:24 | <talismanick> | This feels like the kind of task where linear types could help |
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| 00:26:34 | <talismanick> | nvm, looks like there are other library options |
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| 00:28:43 | <talismanick> | more directly pertinent: should I not use TCache for a(n ad-hoc) graph database? |
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| 01:25:50 | <riverside> | hi |
| 01:26:01 | <riverside> | i would like to ask about lazy evaluation |
| 01:26:15 | <riverside> | and how it is used to handle recursive function implementations |
| 01:26:33 | <riverside> | i think its called "call by use" or something, right? |
| 01:26:39 | <riverside> | call by evaluation... |
| 01:26:54 | <riverside> | and then it "unrolls" the recursive structure |
| 01:27:12 | <riverside> | its a church encoding of graphs or something? |
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| 01:27:58 | <riverside> | how does the consumption formalism of call by evaluation somehow pass us through an unfolding duality to a church encoding, and handle a cyclic structure |
| 01:29:00 | <riverside> | i think im getting confused about some unfold scanner fold rewrite rule |
| 01:29:31 | <riverside> | and i always try to factorise them, which leads to all monoidal algebras and such |
| 01:29:45 | <riverside> | the state trasfer functions |
| 01:29:53 | <riverside> | and about haskells pure mutability.. |
| 01:30:14 | <riverside> | "functions which dont change when you use them" |
| 01:30:24 | <riverside> | as compared to as if they were states |
| 01:30:51 | <riverside> | class State s where state :: i -> s -> (s,o) |
| 01:31:17 | <riverside> | (|s -> i,o) |
| 01:32:09 | <riverside> | er right, just otherwise it looks like functions arent states |
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| 01:39:33 | <oats> | glguy, thanks, cheers! |
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| 02:48:55 | <DrAvogadro> | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VX11vfWsfX0 |
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| 13:24:57 | guest | is now known as lambda1531 |
| 13:25:26 | <lambda1531> | foldr (-) 0 [1..3] |
| 13:25:43 | <lambda1531> | why is answer 2 |
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| 13:30:00 | <hpc> | > foldr (-) z [a, b, c] |
| 13:30:02 | <lambdabot> | a - (b - (c - z)) |
| 13:30:19 | <hpc> | > 1 - (2 - (3 - 0)) |
| 13:30:21 | <lambdabot> | 2 |
| 13:31:43 | <hpc> | foldl will probably give you the results you expect? |
| 13:31:48 | <hpc> | > foldl (-) z [a, b, c] |
| 13:31:51 | <lambdabot> | z - a - b - c |
| 13:32:35 | <lambda1531> | thanks @hpc |
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| 17:30:18 | <kuribas> | I am trying vscode/hls again, does it force me now to use ghcup? |
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| 17:31:25 | <geekosaur> | it uses ghcup no matter what, I think |
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| 17:31:49 | <geekosaur> | there may be a variable setting somewhere to override that but out of the box it does ghcup |
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| 17:32:00 | <geekosaur> | s/variable/configuration/ |
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| 18:59:03 | <kuribas> | geekosaur: you mean for ghc and everything? |
| 18:59:19 | <kuribas> | so now I need to have cabal/stack/ghcup |
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| 18:59:23 | <kuribas> | ? |
| 18:59:30 | <kuribas> | three times of everything |
| 19:00:46 | <geekosaur> | yeh, and it auto-installs stack too (until vscode got involved I had never had stack installed. at least it's not forcing me to *use* it…) |
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| 19:01:08 | <kuribas> | But I already have stack... |
| 19:01:19 | <kuribas> | Will ghcup detect that I have it already, or install a second stack. |
| 19:01:34 | <geekosaur> | dunno |
| 19:01:36 | <kuribas> | an extra stack, so 4 times everything is even worse... |
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| 19:01:46 | <geekosaur> | but I suspect it installs ghcup's managed stack |
| 19:01:56 | <geekosaur> | unless you can go into settings and disable that |
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| 19:26:41 | <mjrosenb> | Is there an example of using Control.Lens.Zipper on a custom datatype? |
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| 19:33:14 | <user8342> | does anyone use Haskell on Windows? the new installation seems more complicated, am I the only one that misses Haskell Platform? |
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| 19:35:50 | <mjrosenb> | wait, does Control.Lens.Zipper not exist anymore? |
| 19:36:07 | <mjrosenb> | user8342: I use the linux haskell inside of wsl. |
| 19:36:49 | <user8342> | I considered that too, mjrosenb. I might have to go that way |
| 19:36:56 | <geekosaur> | I thought ghcup was supported on windows these days? granting it's got an ugly powershell incantation instead of the simple shell one |
| 19:37:49 | <user8342> | it's probably just my lack of skills, but Haskell Platform allowed me to get started with minimal pain |
| 19:38:27 | <geekosaur> | it's minimal until you need conflicting packages, then you're screwed |
| 19:38:51 | <geekosaur> | so "get started" was about all it was good for; using it got you into trouble quickly |
| 19:39:10 | <user8342> | that's good to know |
| 19:39:19 | <user8342> | thank you, geekosaur |
| 19:40:28 | <user8342> | I need to learn more about package management, I'd appreciate any pointers to the basic concepts |
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| 19:41:47 | <geekosaur> | I think most beginners use stack because it's easier to start up; it starts out with a package set not unlike the Haskell Platform but larger (the "resolver") |
| 19:42:44 | <geekosaur> | the difference being every stack project can have its own resolver and set of dependencies, without them all conflicting with each other like would happen with HP |
| 19:42:52 | <mjrosenb> | was lens' Control.Lens.Zipper split out into zipper? https://github.com/ekmett/zippers/blob/master/src/Control/Zipper.hs |
| 19:43:02 | <user8342> | where do the downloaded packages end up? are they in the current directory or elsewhere? |
| 19:43:41 | <geekosaur> | I don't know what the equivalent of ~/.stack is on Windows; possibly the manual says |
| 19:44:59 | <user8342> | I'll look it up, just mentioning ~/.stack helps, thank you |
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| 19:45:42 | <mjrosenb> | blah, zipper is from 2013, and depends on libraries that I can't install :-( |
| 19:45:54 | <mjrosenb> | wait, no. |
| 19:46:10 | <mjrosenb> | last commit was in 2021, just the copyright hasn't been updated. |
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| 19:50:05 | <user8342> | thank you for the help, mjrosenb and geekosaur. much appreciated |
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| 19:52:28 | <geekosaur> | I feel kinda dirty pointing someone to stack 🙂 |
| 19:52:47 | <geekosaur> | but I figure it probably is a bit easier for them to get started, especially on Windows |
| 19:55:19 | <mjrosenb> | ahh, looks like nix's configuration for this just doesn't work. It has multirec-0.7.9, which wants template-haskell < 2.15, and template-haskell... probably 2.18? |
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| 20:04:47 | <mjrosenb> | well now, that's odd. |
| 20:05:05 | <mjrosenb> | nix-build says it is going to build template-haskell-2.14.0.0 |
| 20:05:38 | <mjrosenb> | but before that happens, multirec complains that it can't find `template-haskell >=2.4 && <2.15` |
| 20:05:57 | <mjrosenb> | nix is usually better about building the dependencies in order |
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| 20:08:54 | <geekosaur> | hm, doesn't template-haskell have to come with the compiler? |
| 20:09:56 | <mjrosenb> | oh, that would do it |
| 20:10:05 | <mjrosenb> | oh, and multirec has broken=true |
| 20:10:22 | <mjrosenb> | but I'm ignoring that because miso also has broken=true, and it is... less broken |
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| 20:11:12 | <mjrosenb> | ok, so I guess I can't use zipper |
| 20:11:28 | <mjrosenb> | and there's no longer a zipper in lens :-( |
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| 20:14:52 | <mjrosenb> | oh... oh... OHHH. |
| 20:16:15 | <mjrosenb> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/zippers /= https://hackage.haskell.org/package/zipper |
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| 20:29:01 | <kuribas> | GHC sucks so much... |
| 20:29:19 | <kuribas> | Either I found another GHC bug, or I got a weird TH quirk... |
| 20:29:37 | <kuribas> | • No instance for (FieldNames (RelationshipAttributes 'ReplacementRel)) |
| 20:29:47 | <kuribas> | For sure I have one, generated before by TH... |
| 20:31:27 | <geekosaur> | what ghc version? the rules tightened recently |
| 20:32:07 | <kuribas> | 8.10.7 |
| 20:32:30 | <geekosaur> | that should be fine |
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| 20:37:22 | <kuribas> | I'll try with ghc-9.0.2 and cross my fingers... |
| 20:37:34 | <kuribas> | If it fails I would have to rewrite all this code. |
| 20:37:46 | <kuribas> | I think I'll embrace clojure then... |
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| 20:49:56 | <int-e> | Have you tried to look at the output of ghc -ddump-splices ? |
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| 20:51:37 | <int-e> | which I've only ever done interactively but apparently you can do stuff like {-# OPTIONS_GHC -ddump-splices -ddump-to-file #-} and then look for the generated .dump-simpl file (via https://stackoverflow.com/questions/15851060/ghc-ddump-splices-option-template-haskell ) |
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| 21:01:39 | <kuribas> | int-e: why would I do that? |
| 21:02:39 | <int-e> | to see what the generated instances actually are |
| 21:02:50 | <kuribas> | but I know what they are? |
| 21:03:02 | <int-e> | how? |
| 21:03:34 | <kuribas> | because they are in the code |
| 21:04:10 | <kuribas> | I have: deriveHkd1 [t|RelationshipAttributes 'ReplacementRel|] |
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| 21:04:13 | <EvanR> | :matrix_rain: |
| 21:04:14 | <int-e> | "<kuribas> For sure I have one, generated before by TH..." -- I wouldn't have that level of confidence in TH doing the right thing. |
| 21:04:45 | <kuribas> | int-e: [d| [...] instance FieldNames $(ty) |] |
| 21:05:51 | <int-e> | (And rather than digging into whatever deriveHkd1 is, it seems easier to look at the actual splice. Though it's hard to say, depends on how much code it is and a ton of other things.) |
| 21:06:20 | <int-e> | What I would do though, is give the compiler some credence for the error that it reports. |
| 21:06:40 | <int-e> | Rather than calling it a bug without even looking at what it has to work with. |
| 21:07:04 | <kuribas> | int-e: you think the bug is in deriveHkd1? |
| 21:07:21 | <int-e> | I would have that option on the table. |
| 21:07:24 | <kuribas> | hmm, it might be... |
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| 21:09:30 | <kuribas> | right, it doesn't look correct, I am discarding some code. |
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| 21:12:28 | <kuribas> | looks like I am to blame here. |
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| 21:15:08 | <kuribas> | I can see the appeal of not trying to get stuff right, just letting it crash at runtime. |
| 21:15:41 | <kuribas> | If I look at all the work for deriving all the type classes... |
| 21:15:52 | <int-e> | But for TH code, the compiler is the runtime... you kind of got your wish there. |
| 21:16:07 | <kuribas> | hehe, that's right :) |
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| 21:17:09 | <kuribas> | I mean, passing around constraints to prove generic code correct is quite cumbersome... |
| 21:17:55 | <kuribas> | compared to lisp style, not doing that, and fixing it at runtime. |
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| 21:18:43 | <kuribas> | Still, I prefer this way, but i can understand the appeal for just not going all the way.. |
| 21:20:41 | <kuribas> | The question is, is the effort required to make sure your code is correct and consistent smaller than the effort to just fix code after the fact? |
| 21:22:58 | <geekosaur> | that's not the whole question, though. how about detecting when something is wrong, as opposed to passing on undetected garbage? |
| 21:23:15 | <int-e> | TH is in a weird spot that even makes type safety hard, though typed template haskell is a thing now. But types won't even capture things like which instances are being defined. |
| 21:23:23 | <int-e> | Never mind actual functionality. |
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| 21:25:07 | <kuribas> | geekosaur: that's nearly impossible in dynamic languages |
| 21:25:10 | <int-e> | (Ultimately types are a compromise between catching more errors at compile time, and not overburdening programmers and compiler writers with work to prove correctness of the code before it even gets a chance to run.) |
| 21:25:17 | <geekosaur> | kuribas, exactly |
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| 21:27:16 | <kuribas> | write meta code which is type safe is still pretty hard. |
| 21:27:53 | <kuribas> | meta in the sense of code which works over different types (like Generics). |
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| 21:28:25 | <EvanR> | I've encountered code that is really hard to fix after the fact xD |
| 21:28:58 | <int-e> | EvanR: Did the rocket explode on launch? :) |
| 21:29:00 | <EvanR> | making me something was seriously wrong with the process that created that code |
| 21:29:06 | <EvanR> | think* |
| 21:29:20 | <darkling> | EvanR: It's a technique better known from Perl. ;) |
| 21:29:32 | <int-e> | write-only code? |
| 21:29:44 | <int-e> | I didn't know that was a technique. |
| 21:29:55 | <EvanR> | if it's write only code and it doesn't work, that's also known as basically no code start over |
| 21:30:09 | <ski> | kuribas : "polytypic" |
| 21:30:37 | <int-e> | EvanR: TBF, scrapping the first version of code is a valid strategy for writing better code, if you have the time. |
| 21:31:06 | <kuribas> | ski: right |
| 21:31:30 | <kuribas> | the fact is that records are pretty rigid in haskell. |
| 21:32:19 | <ski> | kuribas : "Polytypic programming at Chalmers" <http://www.cse.chalmers.se/~patrikj/poly/> |
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| 21:37:29 | <kuribas> | extensible records in a dependtly typed language solve this better... |
| 21:41:01 | <kuribas> | I just mean, the clojurist have a good point that doing this meta programming in clojure is much easier. |
| 21:41:31 | <kuribas> | At least, doing it in untyped hashmaps, which you can also do easily in haskell. |
| 21:45:25 | <EvanR> | dependent types might be a bit extreme if you just want records |
| 21:46:00 | <dolio> | What is even an example of a language with dependent types and extensible records? |
| 21:46:18 | <dolio> | Ur? |
| 21:46:35 | <kuribas> | dolio: extensible records can be written easily in a DT language like idris. |
| 21:46:46 | <EvanR> | written easily, used easily? xD |
| 21:47:17 | <EvanR> | it typechecks so it works:tm: |
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| 21:48:34 | <kuribas> | easy is maybe not the right word. More flexibly than in haskell at least. |
| 21:48:42 | <EvanR> | would it be cool if the language let you program new type checking algorithms, with a focus on usability and feedback |
| 21:48:55 | <dolio> | I don't think I believe that. Unless you're throwing out features of extensible records. |
| 21:49:10 | <kuribas> | dolio: which features? |
| 21:49:23 | <dolio> | Field names automatically reorder themselves as needed. |
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| 21:49:55 | <dolio> | So, {foo : A, bar : B} is the same as {bar : B, foo : A}. |
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| 21:51:15 | <dolio> | I wouldn't even necessarily expect it to be 'easy' to model field names. |
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| 21:51:50 | <EvanR> | i wrote some code in clojure which modeled it, and checked programs using it |
| 21:52:03 | <kuribas> | dolio: you index the record type by a list (String, Type) |
| 21:52:12 | <EvanR> | not dependently typed though |
| 21:52:35 | <kuribas> | dolio: so, a type checker for clojure? |
| 21:52:36 | <EvanR> | the type used a set of fields, rather than a list |
| 21:52:47 | <kuribas> | erm EvanR |
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| 21:53:16 | <EvanR> | the inferencer came up with facts like, such and such record type at least has these fields |
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| 21:53:35 | <EvanR> | and would error if two records were incompatible |
| 21:54:39 | <EvanR> | it didn't type check clojure but a sub language |
| 21:56:11 | <EvanR> | kind of like STLC with records |
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| 21:57:53 | <kuribas> | dolio: here is my experiment in idris: https://gist.github.com/kuribas/d5dc0d6a4022bb3f188f8ece8eb12511 |
| 21:58:27 | <kuribas> | EvanR: yeah, it's where typed clojure failed IMO. Adding types on top of clojure is just not ergonomic. |
| 21:58:46 | <kuribas> | Easier to create a subset or clojure-like language, which is designed with types. |
| 21:59:05 | <EvanR> | +types -turingcompleteness xD |
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| 23:15:26 | <EvanR> | I'm using megaparsec, and I see the parser-combinators package which has some combinators. But what happened to chainl1 chainr1 from parsec, which could get you out of a nasty left recursion in the BNF |
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| 23:21:45 | <EvanR> | ok maybe they can't |
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| 23:31:55 | <monochrom> | I think parser-combinators would have them? |
| 23:34:08 | <geekosaur> | the index says not |
| 23:34:19 | <monochrom> | Hrm, it goes straight to Control.Monad.Combinators.Expr so you don't even bother using chainl1 and chainr1 yourself. |
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| 23:44:25 | <EvanR> | Expr it is |
| 23:45:46 | <Jeanne-Kamikaze> | Why would cabal-install complain about a missing/bad header that I have listed in 'includes:' while the package builds (cabal build) just fine? |
| 23:46:02 | <Jeanne-Kamikaze> | Trying to install a local package. |
| 23:49:37 | <Jeanne-Kamikaze> | Looks like a cabal.project file with the 'packages' directive does the trick. Seems like quite a bit has changed in the past decade. |
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| 23:51:34 | <geekosaur> | yes, it has |
| 23:51:42 | <EvanR> | asleep for a decade? Hopefully you missed stack then xD |
| 23:51:59 | <geekosaur> | also cabal build can work while cabal install doesn'tr if a file is not properly accounted for in the sdist |
| 23:52:43 | <geekosaur> | since cabal install starts out by making an sdist in order to perform a clean install, and if the file isn't declared in the right places it might not be written to the sdist tarball |
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All times are in UTC on 2022-09-17.