Logs on 2022-09-18 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:42:55 | <Jeanne-Kamikaze> | EvanR, you could say so, though I did come across Stack briefly... |
| 00:43:25 | <Jeanne-Kamikaze> | geekosaur, I 'fixed it' by adding that cabal.project to the dependent project and pointing it to the library. Apparently you don't explicitly install things these days? So I read on SO. |
| 00:43:48 | <geekosaur> | right |
| 00:43:55 | <sclv> | yep, that's basically correct -- the packages are managed in a store for you |
| 00:44:15 | <geekosaur> | cabal (or stack) manages installation, and more importantly exposure, of things so they don't conmflict with each other and cause "cabal hell" |
| 00:44:19 | <sclv> | much easier than explicitly attempting to maintain a single coherent package set for all your dev needs across projects |
| 00:44:36 | <Jeanne-Kamikaze> | At least now I can say I revived 10-year old code from the rot. 20% coding, 80% figuring out the new tooling. |
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| 00:48:14 | <Jeanne-Kamikaze> | Apparently you don't use ExceptT or ErrorT anymore and go with IO exceptions? I had some trouble getting my ResourceT (ErrorT IO) to work and read you just throw exceptions inside IO these days. |
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| 00:55:33 | <EvanR> | or do you have a custom monad stack that can only do anything with something like unlift IO or base control |
| 00:57:22 | <Jeanne-Kamikaze> | StateT s (R.ResourceT IO) -- That's the monad stack now. IO was previously ErrorT String IO |
| 00:57:40 | <EvanR> | I know ErrorT is out |
| 00:57:42 | <Jeanne-Kamikaze> | ErrorT is deprecated and ExceptT is not MonadUnliftIO. |
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| 00:58:27 | <Jeanne-Kamikaze> | I briefly read something from Snoyman about how you're doing it all wrong and that every IO has an implicit "this can fail" contract. Seemed fair enough, so I went with that. |
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| 00:59:06 | <EvanR> | IO can fail, therefore it should. What is this, elixir? xD |
| 00:59:58 | <Jeanne-Kamikaze> | Yeah but some time ago you had these transformers for error handling. |
| 01:00:13 | <EvanR> | what's wrong with ExceptT again |
| 01:00:35 | <Jeanne-Kamikaze> | ResourceT requires that the underlying monad be MonadUnliftIO, but only IO, ReaderT and another one implement that apparently. |
| 01:00:43 | <Jeanne-Kamikaze> | So ResourceT doesn't stack with ExceptT |
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| 01:02:03 | <Jeanne-Kamikaze> | Or maybe I got all that entirely wrong. |
| 01:02:16 | <EvanR> | ReaderT over IO was cool at one point a million years ago |
| 01:02:33 | <EvanR> | somewhere in the geologic record of what's cool to do in haskell |
| 01:03:05 | <EvanR> | maybe when we reach the singularity it will be cool to just pass stuff around |
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| 01:08:27 | <Jeanne-Kamikaze> | What's the goto book these days for intermediate/advanced topics? |
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| 01:32:36 | <dsal> | Jeanne-Kamikaze: Depends on the topic. |
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| 01:43:28 | <Jeanne-Kamikaze> | I guess I'm looking for 'modern' code patterns and ways of doing things. |
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| 02:17:09 | <jackdk> | I have written code which is an ExceptT over (eventually) a ResourceT. It's fine to runExceptT and get an `m (Either e a)` that is unliftable - this forces you to be explicit about how to handle errors which is fine |
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| 04:39:27 | <sm> | I see stack docs have had a nice facelift: https://haskellstack.org |
| 04:41:45 | <maerwald> | sm: mpilgrem is rocking it |
| 04:43:25 | <sm> | hooray! I'm grateful to such impactful maintainers.. mpilgrem, yourself, mikolaj come to mind (I'm omitting many others of course) |
| 04:44:49 | <sm> | the hls team (it seems more shared than the rest, don't know who does what) |
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| 04:46:54 | <maerwald> | well-typed has been engaged in HLS lately (I think even in official capacity... but don't take my word for it) |
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| 05:48:03 | <mjrosenb> | ok, I'm using a zipper in my state; but the library that I'm providing a state for wants it to be an instance of eq. Is there a reason that zippers don't have an eq based on their contents having an eq? |
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| 06:12:25 | <EvanR> | what does it mean for two zippers to be equal |
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| 06:13:28 | <EvanR> | is 1 :> [2,3] equal to [1,2] <: 3 |
| 06:13:47 | <EvanR> | or [1] 2 [3] |
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| 06:30:06 | <cpli> | EvanR those aren't equivalent in representation, nor in behaviour, no? |
| 06:31:12 | <EvanR> | using random unsubstantiated reasoning, the zipper contains the same data but the pointer is not in the same location |
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| 06:31:33 | <EvanR> | if so, the ideal == test would return false |
| 06:31:41 | <mjrosenb> | I'd say no? |
| 06:32:12 | <EvanR> | there might be counter examples where it's not so clear |
| 06:32:18 | <mjrosenb> | since I'm only going to be rendering the focus of the zipper, focusing on a different element would be vastly different |
| 06:32:44 | <EvanR> | and if you're focusing on something else with the same value? |
| 06:32:56 | <cpli> | that's possible? |
| 06:33:03 | <cpli> | oh |
| 06:33:50 | <mjrosenb> | I also need to know why miso wants this eq instance, since what I implement depends on how it is used. |
| 06:34:22 | <cpli> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/miso |
| 06:34:56 | <EvanR> | there are alternative ways to define equality on stuff, but usually, whatever it is, it satisfies the laws of equivalence relations |
| 06:35:35 | <EvanR> | and there are many ways to define equality which screws that up and is confusing / bogus as a result |
| 06:36:09 | <EvanR> | alternatively if you can only think of one way, could be a good candidate |
| 06:36:25 | <cpli> | EvanR: having a default a la equality of indiscernibles ought to make sense, no? |
| 06:36:50 | <EvanR> | that's what deriving Eq does right |
| 06:36:53 | <mjrosenb> | since you seem to know about zippers, do you know how downward / within are supposed to be used? |
| 06:37:18 | <EvanR> | what zipper is this anyway |
| 06:37:21 | <cpli> | EvanR true. |
| 06:37:38 | <mjrosenb> | zippers zipper |
| 06:37:40 | <mjrosenb> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/zippers-0.3.2/docs/Control-Zipper.html |
| 06:39:07 | <EvanR> | ah. kmett |
| 06:39:12 | <EvanR> | no idea |
| 06:39:26 | <mjrosenb> | should the first argument be traverse? or ix/at? |
| 06:40:31 | <mjrosenb> | I guess `within traverse` is what I want. |
| 06:42:22 | <mjrosenb> | or do I want iWithin, and itraverse? |
| 06:43:47 | <dolio> | Depends if you want to see the indices, presumably. |
| 06:44:38 | <mjrosenb> | riiigh, that's the difference between traverse and itraverse. I use either of them so infrequently. I thought the i just meant that an index existed, not that it tracked it. |
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| 06:48:46 | <mjrosenb> | Guess I should just get ghci working, and try shit until I get the output that I want |
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| 06:55:12 | <vglfr> | Thinking of NaN as sorta bottom within the "domain" of floats - is it a good intuition? (reading about Ord v PartialOrd) |
| 06:55:42 | <c_wraith> | it works decently well as a model |
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| 06:58:38 | <vglfr> | Thanks. |
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| 19:47:13 | <EvanR> | I thought I had a slick way to execute some abstract C-like statement code with continuation passing style. Then I read about Duff's device |
| 19:47:50 | <EvanR> | I don't know what's real anymore |
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| 19:49:08 | <Rembane> | EvanR: What put you into programmer limbo? |
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| 19:51:29 | <geekosaur> | if you're worried about Duff's device you're not worrying about abstraction 🙂 |
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| 19:53:16 | <EvanR> | like, you can simply jump into a loop, wtf |
| 19:53:38 | <EvanR> | wrote a lot of C, not a lot of gotos |
| 19:53:40 | Rembane | hands EvanR a sack of GOTOs |
| 19:53:49 | <Rembane> | My timing isn't optimal. :D |
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| 19:54:42 | <EvanR> | my parser parses duff's device correctly, so ... it has to work |
| 19:55:23 | <geekosaur> | switch is dirt simple, so it's actually not difficult for a C compiler to do that |
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| 19:57:06 | <EvanR> | so I need to write a real compiler to get it to work? ;_; |
| 19:57:28 | <geekosaur> | or at least pretend to, instead of trying to get clever with CPS |
| 19:57:48 | <EvanR> | nooo |
| 19:57:58 | <geekosaur> | of course you could just say "my compiler is about abstraction, not pretending to be just above assembler, so no Duff's device" |
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| 19:59:31 | <geekosaur> | of course, you could also just write whatever you intended originally and then see what it does when handed DD |
| 20:02:05 | <dolio> | Do people even hand-unroll their loops anymore? |
| 20:02:34 | <EvanR> | I did on last years advent of code |
| 20:02:54 | <dolio> | In C? |
| 20:03:27 | <EvanR> | correction, asked GCC to unroll the loops for me |
| 20:03:27 | <dolio> | I wouldn't even be surprised if unrolling a loop by hand is worse, because it prevents the C compiler from unrolling it better or something. |
| 20:04:28 | <EvanR> | even awesome game EXAPunks comes with a assembler macro to repeat some code N times |
| 20:12:25 | <EvanR> | the language recognized is actually B, which didn't have initializers, so I guess there's no question what should be happening if you jump into a loop |
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| 20:54:38 | <ski> | EvanR : i once wrote a loop in C, with a `goto' out of it, and a `goto' back inside it (just after the one out). i first conceived of the algorithm in my head, drew a flowchart of it, then translated that to (mostly) more structured constructs in C |
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| 21:02:37 | <ski> | (see <https://paste.debian.net/plainh/f0571cc8>. it's enumerating combinations ("ordered selections"), doing backtracking. it's essentially simulating a "power loop" in the sense of the second chapter of "Advanced Programming Language Design" by Raphael Finkel in 1996 at <https://web.archive.org/web/20150522052725/http://www.nondot.org/sabre/Mirrored/AdvProgLangDesign/>) |
| 21:03:00 | <Rembane> | \m/ power loop \m/ |
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| 21:08:06 | <ski> | the `goto's simulate recursive calls and returns, using an array to simulate the corresponding stack (of known depth). power loops are definite (known "recursive" depth) |
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| 21:29:47 | <EvanR> | oh hell yeah, power loops |
| 21:31:16 | <EvanR> | in that code... the for loop has an initialization. If you jump into the loop, does the initialization just not happen |
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| 22:01:29 | <edrx> | hi all! I am an emacs old-timer and a haskell newbie... |
| 22:01:34 | <sclv> | fhello! |
| 22:02:25 | <Hecate> | hiya |
| 22:02:26 | <edrx> | is there an emacs package that lets me navigate the libraries with M-. for "go to the definition of this symbol" and M-, for "go back"? |
| 22:02:29 | <edrx> | hi! =) |
| 22:02:58 | <c_wraith> | Hmm. probably, but there's a problem.. by default, the source of libraries isn't installed anywhere |
| 22:03:45 | <edrx> | here the sources for Process.System - for example - is in ~/bigsrc/ghc-8.10.3/libraries/process/System/ |
| 22:05:04 | <c_wraith> | what is bigsrc? |
| 22:05:06 | <edrx> | nevermind, let me ask my other question too... I am trying to port this to Haskell: http://angg.twu.net/eev-maxima.html#luatree |
| 22:05:48 | <ski> | EvanR : note that what is initialized depend on `cur_sel' .. and `cur_sel' is exactly what is changed, as i jump out and in |
| 22:05:49 | <Hecate> | c_wraith: technically they are in the FS at a deterministic location… just in a tarball :p |
| 22:05:50 | <edrx> | c_wraith: I put the sources of things that are very big, like emacs, ghc, and agda, in ~/bigsrc/, and the smaller things in ~/usrc/ |
| 22:06:08 | <c_wraith> | Hecate: and if you never clean up the cabal store |
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| 22:07:08 | <Hecate> | c_wraith: :D |
| 22:07:11 | <sclv> | edrx: you can use haskell-hoogle to lookup the function name in hoogle, which often suffices |
| 22:07:18 | <ski> | EvanR : effectively, i have `sel_count' number of `for' loops nested inside each other (with a call to `act' innermost), each one initializing, checking, and incrementing `opt_of[cur_sel]' for its particular `cur_sel' (one `for' for each value of `cur_sel') |
| 22:07:41 | <edrx> | my first idea was to call my script in Lua - that produces the 2D representations of trees - using the Process thing, but that's hard |
| 22:07:47 | <edrx> | sclv: thanks! looking |
| 22:07:58 | <sclv> | edrx: for your own code you can use a haskell etags generator (there are many as well) and then traditional emacs tags functions |
| 22:08:13 | <sclv> | or generate tags for other libs you've unpacked just to have around... |
| 22:09:32 | <edrx> | sclv: can you recommend me one of the etags generators? |
| 22:09:33 | <ski> | @where hoogle |
| 22:09:34 | <lambdabot> | https://hoogle.haskell.org |
| 22:09:35 | <ski> | @where hayoo |
| 22:09:35 | <lambdabot> | http://hayoo.fh-wedel.de/ -- See also Hoogle: http://haskell.org/hoogle http://fpcomplete.com/hoogle |
| 22:09:46 | <edrx> | hi ski! thanks! |
| 22:09:51 | <ski> | @hoogle mapAccumL |
| 22:09:52 | <lambdabot> | Data.List mapAccumL :: Traversable t => (a -> b -> (a, c)) -> a -> t b -> (a, t c) |
| 22:09:52 | <lambdabot> | Data.Traversable mapAccumL :: Traversable t => (a -> b -> (a, c)) -> a -> t b -> (a, t c) |
| 22:09:52 | <lambdabot> | GHC.OldList mapAccumL :: (acc -> x -> (acc, y)) -> acc -> [x] -> (acc, [y]) |
| 22:10:05 | <ski> | @hoogle (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a] |
| 22:10:06 | <lambdabot> | Prelude filter :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a] |
| 22:10:06 | <lambdabot> | Prelude takeWhile :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a] |
| 22:10:06 | <lambdabot> | Prelude dropWhile :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a] |
| 22:10:10 | <ski> | @hoogle+ |
| 22:10:11 | <lambdabot> | Data.List takeWhile :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a] |
| 22:10:11 | <lambdabot> | Data.List dropWhile :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a] |
| 22:10:11 | <lambdabot> | Data.List dropWhileEnd :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a] |
| 22:10:28 | <ski> | heya edrx :) |
| 22:10:50 | <edrx> | =) |
| 22:11:06 | <sclv> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hs-tags and https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hasktags are the two common tags generators iirc |
| 22:11:22 | <EvanR> | ski, yep my brain just exploded |
| 22:11:36 | ski | whistles innocently |
| 22:12:19 | <EvanR> | I have saved this code for stress testing lol |
| 22:12:21 | <ski> | EvanR : it's not that different from `replicateM_' for the list monad |
| 22:13:12 | <edrx> | I will have to go offline soon, so let me ask some basic questions to work on them offlineishly... |
| 22:13:29 | <ski> | EvanR : if you want to, i can give you the whole file (with call to `app_ordered_selections') |
| 22:14:43 | <EvanR> | sure |
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| 22:15:54 | <ski> | (oh and `app' was named after val app : ('a -> unit) -> 'a list -> unit in SML, which is basically `mapM_') |
| 22:16:26 | <EvanR> | at least the motivation makes more sense talking about list monads |
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| 22:20:31 | <edrx> | I found some old notes on cabal here, from when I used it to install agda without understanding it... I'm on Debian, does this look right? |
| 22:20:40 | <edrx> | sudo apt-get install cabal; cabal update |
| 22:20:52 | <edrx> | oops |
| 22:20:59 | <edrx> | sudo apt-get install cabal-install; cabal update |
| 22:21:02 | <sclv> | the current way is install ghcup, then use that to install ghc and cabal binaries both |
| 22:21:23 | <sclv> | https://www.haskell.org/ghcup/ |
| 22:21:35 | <sclv> | the cabal you get from apt-get may be somewhat old |
| 22:21:47 | <edrx> | thanks! |
| 22:21:49 | <sclv> | that said, apt-get should still work, just not give you the most up to dat |
| 22:22:41 | <ski> | EvanR, PMed you the link |
| 22:23:04 | <edrx> | going offline now! all hints saved! thanks, cya later =) |
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| 22:43:36 | <EvanR> | got it |
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All times are in UTC on 2022-09-18.