Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2022-09-21 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:35:12 <Axman6> sm: surely that a nack? :P
00:35:16 <Axman6> that's*
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00:47:24 <zzz> we're still using matrix? i thought people figured out by now it's no good
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00:52:25 <ALowther> I am going through the interactive tutorial on the haskell.org home page. In Lesson 3 I learned that ['a','b','c'] == 'abc'. This wasn't intuitive to me, but I took away the idea that Strings in Haskell are represented as an array of characters. So, my next attempt was ["hello","world"] == "helloworld". This did not give me a True, however. Instead I got: Expected type: [[Char]], Actual Type: [Char]. I then thought that ["hello","world"] i
00:52:25 <ALowther> s actually a two dimensional array and tried [['h','e','l','l','o'],['w','o','r','l','d']] == "helloworld". This also failed. What am I misunderstanding?
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00:53:25 <geekosaur> [['h','e','l','l','o'],['w','o','r','l','d']] == ["hello","world"]
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00:53:47 <geekosaur> but not == "helloworld". that is concatenation, which is different
00:54:03 <geekosaur> > concat ["hello","world"]
00:54:04 <lambdabot> "helloworld"
00:54:20 <ALowther> But isn't concatenation what is happening with ['a','b','c'] == "abc"?
00:54:21 <geekosaur> > [['h','e','l','l','o'],['w','o','r','l','d']]
00:54:23 <lambdabot> ["hello","world"]
00:54:26 <geekosaur> no
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00:54:51 <geekosaur> the two are actually identical, not concatenation
00:55:10 <geekosaur> "abc" is ['a','b','c'] is 'a':'b':'c':[]
00:55:19 <geekosaur> just different ways of writing the same thing
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00:56:21 <geekosaur> (the lasat one is the actual internal representation, for what it's worth)
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00:57:13 <ALowther> Hmmm
00:57:13 <pavonia> Likewise ["hello", "world"] == "hello" : "world" : [] which is different from "helloworld" = 'h' : 'e' : ... : 'd' : []
00:57:33 <pavonia> Even the types don't match here
00:57:51 <pavonia> [String] vs. [Char]
00:58:16 <ALowther> Is String == [Char]?
00:58:24 <pavonia> Yes
00:58:24 <geekosaur> yes
00:58:36 <geekosaur> but [[Char]] is not [Char]
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00:59:14 <ALowther> I see. I was incorrectly concatenating my two arrays of chars, rather than seeing them as distinct arrays
00:59:43 <pavonia> > ["foo", "bar"] == ('f':'o':'o':[]) : ('b':'a':'r':[]) : []
00:59:44 <lambdabot> True
01:00:15 <ALowther> Isn't that Tuple syntax?
01:00:19 <ALowther> > () == []
01:00:22 <lambdabot> error:
01:00:22 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match expected type ‘()’ with actual type ‘[a0]’
01:00:22 <lambdabot> • In the second argument of ‘(==)’, namely ‘[]’
01:00:47 <EvanR> [1,2,3,4] = 1:2:3:4:[] is a linked list not an array, sometimes it matters
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01:01:02 <pavonia> ALowther: No, it's just grouping
01:01:17 <ALowther> > ('f','o','o') == ['f','o','o']
01:01:18 <lambdabot> error:
01:01:19 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match expected type ‘(Char, Char, Char)’
01:01:19 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘[Char]’
01:01:21 <geekosaur> the active part there is not the parentheses but the colons separating the elements
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01:02:04 <pavonia> ALowther: If there's no comma, it can't be a tuple
01:02:07 <geekosaur> a list is a linked list (x:xs) where x is an element and xs is another list. the constructors are : and [] (the empty list)
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01:24:30 <Axman6> I feel like it took way too long to correct the "strings are arrays of chars" misunderstanding above, that shou;d've been nipped in the bud right away
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01:33:25 <edrx> I installed "pipes" with cabal, and my first attempt to write a test for it gave an error about "hidden packages" - the last comment here: http://angg.twu.net/HASKELL/testpipes.hs.html
01:33:37 <edrx> hints? =/
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01:42:09 <Axman6> did you add it to your cabal file?
01:42:30 <Axman6> or, did you tell ghci that it's a dependency?
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01:46:33 <edrx> I'm not sure =( I copied the imports from https://github.com/Gabriella439/pipes/blob/main/src/Pipes/Tutorial.hs into my test file - the testpipes.hs above - and then when I tried to make ghci load it with ":load testpipes.hs" it gave me the errors about hidden packages...
01:47:11 <edrx> is that enough to tell ghci that those modules from "pipes" are dependencies?
01:53:32 <Axman6> no
01:53:40 <Axman6> modules and packages are different things
01:53:51 <edrx> oops, wrong terminology, sorry
01:54:33 <Axman6> I have no idea how you're supposed to do it in emacs though. in ghci, you'd usually add -package bytestring -package pipes -package blah to your ghci call
01:54:57 <edrx> so I need to add something to my testpipes.hs that tells ghci that it need to make the modules in the package "pipes" available...
01:55:05 <edrx> let me try
01:56:11 <edrx> Axman6: worked! =)
01:56:22 <EvanR> 128 language quine relay? https://github.com/mame/quine-relay technically haskell related since haskell is in there
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02:00:49 <edrx> Axman6: I found a mention of what you explained here: https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/9.0.1/docs/html/users_guide/packages.html#using-packages
02:01:19 <edrx> now I'm looking for a statement (?) that corresponds to the "-package" option...
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02:04:15 <byorgey> There's no way to put that information in a .hs file. This is the point where you would make a .cabal file which specifies the needed modules etc. You can make one very simply by running 'cabal init' and following the prompts.
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02:04:46 <edrx> byorgey: trying!
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02:16:38 <sm> stack scripts/cabal scripts are also a thing
02:19:04 <edrx> I am trying to follow this - https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/stable/developing-packages.html#using-cabal-init - in the directory /tmp/foo2/
02:19:52 <edrx> and I've added "pipes" to the build-depends in foo2.cabal
02:20:28 <edrx> would ghci read the foo2.cabal? or only ghc?
02:22:19 <edrx> aaah, nevermind
02:22:40 <edrx> this works in the repl: ":set -package pipes"
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02:34:49 <sm> cabal repl does that for you
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02:36:12 <edrx> sm: does what?
02:36:44 <sm> runs ghci in a way that it sees the packages on your cabal file
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02:37:37 <edrx> how do I run the cabal repl?
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02:39:34 <sm> just type that. it's documented I think
02:39:36 <edrx> aaah, just "cabal repl"
02:39:41 <edrx> sorry
02:41:26 <edrx> https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/stable/cabal-commands.html#cabal-repl
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04:12:26 <EvanR> gratuitous laziness turns a multipass process into a single pass via time travel xD https://paste.tomsmeding.com/xpHJYJQL
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04:24:54 <EvanR> apparently I don't need the ~
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04:39:37 <c_wraith> correct. a match in a let is already irrefutable
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06:14:13 <jackdreilly> Hi all! does anyone use stack + hls + vscode? I have this silly problem where changing the export list of Lib.hs doesn't propagate to other files in the project, i.e., you cannot import a newly exported function into another file like Spec.hs. The solution is to restart HLS in VS Code. Does anyone have a workaround for this?
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06:15:56 <sm> jackdreilly: I restart hls fairly often for stuff like that
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06:25:11 <jackdreilly> sm: thanks for the pointer, hoped to find a proper workaround to stay in "flow":)  I tried tracking down the relevant Github issues in the VSCode plugin/HLS/Stack, but got a bit lost
06:25:50 <sm> it's fast if you use the command palette, almost automatic for me now
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06:52:29 <Axman6> jackdreilly: set up VS Code to restart HLS on save :P
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08:16:06 <bahamas> hello. anyone have any idea what the pipe might be doing here"
08:16:08 <bahamas> `H.textProperty "style" "background: #fe6683 !important;border-color: #fe6683 !important;" | _Status == Requested ]`
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08:18:18 <dminuoso> bahamas: Presumably part of a list (or monad) comprehension
08:19:20 <dminuoso> It's definitely a cute trick to use list/monad comprehensions without any <- in them
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08:24:28 <ski> @undo [x | b]
08:24:29 <lambdabot> if b then [x] else []
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08:28:04 <bahamas> aha, so H.textProperty "stays" only when _Status == Requested, if I understand
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08:40:52 <ski> sounds reasonable
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08:46:45 <bahamas> thanks!
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09:00:23 <tux> Hello people, I'm quite new to Haskell and I'm building a website with Yesod. Using the sqlite backend I noticed that when I kill the server with C-c it usually leaves the -shm and -wal files behind, uncommitted to the main db file; is there any way to terminate gracefully? Google's given me nothing so far sadly :( Thanks.
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09:31:27 <akegalj> not-tux: there are few people in #yesod channel, maybe you could post your question there as well
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10:14:17 <not-tux> akegalj thanks for the tip, will do!
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13:54:56 <mesaoptimizer> what's the beginner's channel? I've forgotten
13:55:35 <mesaoptimizer> oh, #haskell-beginners. right
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13:58:23 <ski> fwiw, this channel is also fine for beginners questions
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13:59:57 <ski> (you'll possibly get more eyes, in here. however, at some times, it can be a bit noisy in here, in which case it may be easier to have a more focused conversation or explanation in a generally less busy channel)
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14:06:07 <not-tux> eh noisy? it's been quite inactive for the past 7h :p
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14:07:37 <byorgey> "at some times"
14:08:13 <not-tux> oh right timezones ;-;
14:08:40 <byorgey> I'm not sure it even correlates with time zones, there are just times when it's really busy and times when it's not.
14:08:43 <int-e> also decades
14:08:57 <int-e> this channel was buzzing with activity 19 years ago :P
14:09:48 <int-e> Well, on a different network, but there is continuity.
14:10:11 <byorgey> true, some of the activity has dispersed to other venues.
14:10:28 <not-tux> reddit seems pretty active
14:10:37 <not-tux> I might get a reddit account
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14:11:02 <byorgey> it's a trap!
14:11:12 <not-tux> :o
14:11:13 <not-tux> why
14:11:39 <byorgey> just kidding, there's lots of great Haskell discussion on reddit. I am just anti-social-media in general.
14:12:15 <bsima> libredd.it is much better than corporate reddit
14:12:25 <bsima> if u must use reddit
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14:12:56 <byorgey> "Repl Unavailable"
14:13:15 <bsima> other instances here https://github.com/spikecodes/libreddit
14:13:55 <byorgey> neat, thanks
14:14:34 <int-e> Hmm, can https://teddit.net/ be used for posting? I do like it for the rare reading I do.
14:18:01 <not-tux> byorgey: I'm not a fan either :p
14:18:07 <not-tux> that's why I still don't have one hehe
14:18:30 <geekosaur> I have an account but I use it only very rarely
14:18:43 <not-tux> also since there seem to be people around now, I'll ask again:
14:18:44 <not-tux> > Hello people, I'm quite new to Haskell and I'm building a website with Yesod. Using the sqlite backend I noticed that when I kill the server with C-c it usually leaves the -shm and -wal files behind, uncommitted to the main db file; is there any way to terminate gracefully? Google's given me nothing so far sadly :( Thanks.
14:18:46 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:13: error: parse error on input ‘,’
14:18:52 <not-tux> also since there seem to be people around now, I'll ask again:
14:18:53 <not-tux> > Hello people, I'm quite new to Haskell and I'm building a website with Yesod. Using the sqlite backend I noticed that when I kill the server with C-c it usually leaves the -shm and -wal files behind, uncommitted to the main db file; is there any way to terminate gracefully? Google's given me nothing so far sadly :( Thanks.
14:18:54 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:13: error: parse error on input ‘,’
14:19:08 <not-tux> wait why did it doublepost
14:19:12 <not-tux> whatever
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14:20:12 <dolio> Are you on matrix, and did you edit what you wrote?
14:20:34 <not-tux> yehah I tried to edit - I'm on libera's web client thoug
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14:21:18 <dolio> Editing resends the edited message to IRC.
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14:21:47 <not-tux> Ah I guessed that too, as soon as you said. Thanks for the heads-up :p
14:21:52 <geekosaur> didn't know the web client supported editing though
14:22:08 <geekosaur> matrix does but it doesn't necessarily send the whole thing, for small edits it does s///
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14:24:37 <dolio> The web chat looks a lot different than it used to.
14:25:00 <not-tux> welp I just found out about IRC :p
14:25:10 <not-tux> so no idea what it used to look like haha
14:27:44 <dolio> It's also doing stuff like showing 'not-tux is typing ...' notifications. So maybe it's just a matrix web client or something. It's hard to tell.
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14:28:40 <not-tux> actually - what is matrix? I hear about it quite a bit but I don't actually know what it is
14:29:09 <not-tux> is it like a bouncer? It says "decentralised message store"
14:29:21 <dolio> It's kind of like an open source slack or what have you.
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14:29:56 <dolio> Or discord. Any of the fancy modern IRC replacements that people use.
14:33:12 <int-e> I suppose renaming guilds to servers was a stroke of genius.
14:33:38 <not-tux> I don't like Discord
14:33:44 <not-tux> but I use it so much xd
14:33:50 <geekosaur> its biug thing is that it can gateway between any of the other message services
14:37:47 <not-tux> xD
14:38:09 <not-tux> well I'm off now and I don't have a bouncer, but I now know a nice place to talk about haskell stuffs hehe
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16:52:52 <lyle> I'm looking at the first function (forAllCommands) on https://hackage.haskell.org/package/quickcheck-state-machine-0.7.1/docs/Test-StateMachine-Sequential.html. I've never seen a function whose type has multiple =>. Can someone steer me in the direction I need to go to understand this?
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16:56:20 <sm> me neither. Is it just a syntactic truck to keep them aligned ?
16:56:46 <sm> s/truck/trick/
16:56:55 <geekosaur[m]> Yes. Ghc tuples them together
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16:57:13 <geekosaur[m]> It's a ghc specific hack
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16:59:06 <lyle> Ok, so it's not some advanced type-theory thing.
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17:08:41 <tomsmeding> lyle: in case you run into this in the future, it must be mentioned that the type signature of _pattern synonym_ can have multiple => with a very specific meaning https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/pattern_synonyms.html#typing-of-pattern-synonyms
17:09:08 <tomsmeding> (in case you know what a pattern synonym is in the first place)
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17:39:36 <dminuoso> Mmm, so I have a networking protocol library, and packets may have some unixtime stamp inside. Would exposing this as a Word32 (
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17:39:59 <dminuoso> be fine, or is providing a POSIXTime and depending on `time` more sensible?
17:40:21 <dminuoso> Im leaning towards just giving you the Word32 and deal with it yourself
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17:40:49 <dminuoso> (Well, I can even just make up a newtype for it, with a haddock saying "use `time` maybe"
17:41:08 <dminuoso> Mmm, my 0 key seems to be a bit stuck.
17:42:24 <[exa]> dminuoso: I'd go with a custom type representing precisely what is in the protocol and providing typeclass instances to make the conversion easy/no-op
17:43:04 <dminuoso> Right, I mean it is highly generic and means nothing specific
17:43:06 <[exa]> as in, Word32 would be completely y2k38
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17:43:23 <dminuoso> Yes, but thats the world we live in :>
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17:43:56 <geekosaur> nobody's going to fix such things until 2037, you know that 🙂
17:43:57 <dminuoso> In RADIUS, there's no Word64 unix time yet
17:44:04 ski would like a more general version of pattern synonyms
17:44:41 <dminuoso> [exa]: For context, any radius client may have completely different meaning for what this date might represent
17:44:53 <dminuoso> Which is why POSIXTime would be a suitable wrapper
17:45:02 <dminuoso> But Im just not sure about depending on `time` just for that.
17:45:05 <ski> (e.g. being able to have them be recursive. and to have some expression parameters (rather than all being patterns). and i have some more specific syntactical ideas)
17:45:48 <[exa]> ah wait y2k38 is actually for Int32....good to go then. :D
17:46:12 <dminuoso> What do you mean?
17:51:53 <int-e> I still have fond memories of the y19100 bugs
17:52:20 <int-e> Good times. Somehow, nothing truly terrible happened.
17:53:10 <EvanR> 19100 is before after or during the Age of Aquarius
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17:53:45 <ski> yes
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17:54:59 <ski> (wasn't there static analyzers for e.g. COBOL developed which flagged parts of code which might have to be updated to deal with low-precision time ?)
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18:00:36 <Guest|67> How do I clean ghcup from my linux system? Simply deleting .ghcup does not seem to do it, because when I install it from scratch it somehow remembers my what ghc version I want.
18:00:50 <Guest|67> Apart from creating links to non existent locations
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18:05:26 <monochrom> It should be just simply deleting .ghcup
18:07:58 <Guest|67> after I reinstall it with "curl --proto '=https' --tlsv1.2 -sSf https://get-ghcup.haskell.org | sh" it automatically install ghc 8.10.7, which I doubt is a default. I want it to install hls in the end, and it create haskell-language-server-wrapper link pointing to a non existent location outside of .ghcup
18:08:46 <monochrom> But that's the default.
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18:10:14 <Guest|67> Ok, then. Why would haskell-language-server-wrapper point inside non-existent ~/devenv dir?
18:10:29 <monochrom> I don't know, I've never used HLS.
18:10:39 <geekosaur[m]> Pretty much the whole ecosystem is still on 8.10.7
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18:25:17 <geekosaur> on my system haskell-language-server-wrapper is a symlink into .ghcup/lib/haskell-language-server-wrapper-1.7.0.0/bin
18:25:26 <geekosaur> granting I'm perhaps slightly behind
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19:25:41 <ski> @quote in.doubt
19:25:41 <lambdabot> lispy says: When in doubt, blame dons
19:26:05 <ski> @quote in.doubt
19:26:05 <lambdabot> ozone says: when in doubt, blame the GHC RTS
19:26:14 <ski> @quote in.doubt
19:26:14 <lambdabot> copumpkin says: when in doubt, blame ski
19:26:22 ski glances around warily
19:26:37 <int-e> . o O ( the d&d of Haskell - dons and dcoutts )
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19:26:52 <monochrom> haha
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19:28:58 <int-e> @quote blame.ekm
19:28:58 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Sorry about this, I know it's a bit silly.
19:29:07 <int-e> odd :)
19:30:54 <geekosaur> now's your chance 🙂
19:31:08 <geekosaur> @quote blame.ed
19:31:08 <lambdabot> No quotes match. I feel much better now.
19:31:16 <EvanR> I know someone can help me here. "All you need is Lambda" is the title of looks like 1000 blog posts. But was there an influential paper involving this title from before blogs?
19:32:03 <int-e> geekosaur: Yeah I messed that up and checked privately.
19:32:28 <monochrom> There were a lot of papers of the form "Lambda: The Ultimate ___" from the same authors.
19:32:49 <monochrom> But I very much doubt that the bloggers have even heard of any of the papers.
19:33:00 <ski> the papers are fun
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19:33:41 <int-e> geekosaur: I imagine those quotes are more than 15 years old, #haskell was a lot sillier then.
19:33:59 <monochrom> The average blogger knows just enough to be dangerous.
19:34:01 <geekosaur> sometimes I wish it still were
19:34:29 ski doesn't look at shapr
19:34:41 <EvanR> yes none of the blogs know
19:35:36 <int-e> Let's make up some quotes? "All you need is epsilon." - D. Hilbert
19:35:47 <monochrom> Yikes haha
19:36:09 <monochrom> IIRC Hilbert's choice operator is even strong than the axiom of choice.
19:36:20 <int-e> A little bit, yeah.
19:36:52 <ski> in which way ?
19:36:54 <int-e> It gives you persistent choice... the choice will be the same every time you evaluate a formula.
19:36:58 <ski> ah
19:37:10 <dolio> Yeah, it's "global choice".
19:37:25 <int-e> ah, I was wondering what the standard terminology is
19:37:28 <monochrom> Yeah. I had some trouble swallowing that when I learned HOL.
19:37:39 <int-e> I was going to admit that I picked "peristent" myself (still doing it, as you can see)
19:38:05 <monochrom> Memoized random choice haha
19:38:30 <int-e> Hmm in a first-order context that's clearly conservative though
19:39:02 <ski> reminds me of randomly generating functions (e.g. for something QuickCheck like, but perhaps in Erlang or some other language)
19:39:05 <int-e> Oh, or not.
19:39:17 <monochrom> Oh, I eventually accepted it, no worries.
19:39:37 <int-e> Sorry, I wanted to use compactness but I forgot about dependent choices and the lack of higher order functions.
19:39:51 <int-e> And higher order logics don't have compactness... so it's not as obvious as that.
19:40:20 <int-e> On a model theoretic level it should work fine though... if you have the axiom of choice on the meta level.
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19:54:56 <phma> I've made a Hackage account and asked for permission to upload. How long does it take?
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20:22:02 <shapr> ski: you want silly #haskell to return?
20:22:13 <geekosaur> why not?
20:22:25 <shapr> sounds good to me
20:22:30 <shapr> it sure was fun
20:22:41 <shapr> anything silly comes to mind?
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20:23:11 <geekosaur> I thought that was your bailiwick
20:23:41 <geekosaur> (I'm lousy at silly)
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20:26:05 <yin> how does vty compare to ansi-terminal-game? anyone familiar?
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20:29:57 <geekosaur> looks to me like they're pretty disjoint?
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20:34:24 <geekosaur> ansi-terminal-game is about "blitting" text-based "frames" to a terminal; vty is more general but probably slower for game-related stuff (then again, speed of the terminal emulator will dominate both)
20:35:17 <geekosaur> basically, use ansi-terminal-game for frame-based output, vty (anbd probably brick to get a usable UI built on top of vty) for general text
20:36:08 <yin> geekosaur: thanks
20:36:59 <yin> how do you figure vty to be slower?
20:37:38 <geekosaur> because outputting what amounts to the whole screen all at once will be faster than moving and updating
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20:37:59 <geekosaur> but at the same time you don';t want to do a full screen update to track someone typing on a line
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20:38:16 <geekosaur> so it will depend on what you're doing
20:38:25 <yin> ah i see
20:38:39 <geekosaur> that's what I meant by frames
20:38:52 <EvanR> with enough compression on the serial cable maybe sending frames won't be so bad
20:39:14 <yin> so for stuff like let's say cellular automata ansi-terminal-game will be the best choice
20:39:15 <geekosaur> as I said earlier, speed of the terminal emulator will probably dominate anyway
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20:40:19 <EvanR> I can't believe there's no aalib bindings?
20:41:28 <geekosaur> what will matter more in the end is the API; ansi-terminal-game is completely unsuited to implementing something like haskeline/readline, and while vty can do frames it'll be slower because it's optimized for the other case
20:41:54 <geekosaur> (but again terminal emulator time will eat any such slowness anyway)
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20:42:08 <EvanR> >I vote for simplicity. There are many problems of various kinds with video cards, low frequency monitors, crashing graphical apps... AA-lib IS the solution.
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22:03:17 <hippoid> what is the purpose of hie.yaml? trying to haskell-language-server on nixos and it seems like this file is necessary?
22:04:31 <geekosaur> usually it's optional these days; HLS can often figure it out from a cabal file and/or cabal.project/stack.yaml. it identifies things like projects and the locations of source files
22:05:01 <geekosaur> if you're getting things from nix it might need help though
22:05:12 <geekosaur> (see #haskell-language-server)
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22:20:41 <hippoid> why is it needed in the first place, or maybe I should ask at the other channel
22:21:31 <geekosaur> probably best there, but did I not tell you what it does? earlier versions of HLS were bad at identifying projects. more recent ones are better at it, and hie.yaml is usually optional these days
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22:22:09 <geekosaur> (I have one in one project of mine, but that's mostly to keep it from poking at some stuff that's barely more than comments and half-defined data structures)
22:22:12 <yin> aw only 4bit colors in ansi-terminal-game
22:22:27 <hippoid> geekosaur: ok now I see, thanks
22:22:41 <yin> guess i'll try plawying with escape sequences
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22:25:47 <EvanR> 4 bit color is pretty cool
22:26:12 <EvanR> check out 16 color palette contests and stuff
22:27:07 <EvanR> I played the hell out of this game... look at all those colors xD http://captive.atari.org/
22:27:07 <geekosaur> 4 bit is all you can do portably
22:27:20 <EvanR> (16 of them)
22:27:52 <telser_> I always though 4 bit color was a bit warm for my tastes
22:27:59 telser_ sees self out
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22:45:50 <EvanR> it's 2022 and haskell, scalaz are the only functional languages that have a map that works on ... Maps xD
22:46:09 <EvanR> maybe it's a language barrier, Map map is too confusing
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22:46:44 <EvanR> clojure and elixir want you to always be messing with the key in the process
22:47:38 <yin> technically haskell's map only works on singly linked lists
22:47:47 <EvanR> Data.Map.map
22:47:50 <yin> i'm fsorry
22:49:26 <yin> touche
22:49:53 <yin> completely forgot about that, and will proceed to forget about it again
22:51:16 <ski> shapr : some reasonable amount of silliness wouldn't hurt, i think, rather the opposite
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22:52:54 <yin> ski : you speak with a silly ammount of reason
22:53:42 <ski> surely you're joking, mr. yin
22:55:59 <ski> `vty' supports 88 or 256 color palette ? 24-bit truecolor ?
22:56:24 <ski> (Sixels ??)
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22:57:33 <yin> now i got lost in imagining how feynman would explain monads
22:57:48 <geekosaur> it's got sixels?!
22:57:56 <ski> @type fmap :: (v -> u) -> (M.Map k v -> M.Map k u)
22:57:57 <lambdabot> (v -> u) -> M.Map k v -> M.Map k u
22:58:03 <ski> geekosaur : no idea, just asking
22:58:46 <ski> `fmap' used to be called `map', in the olden days
22:59:04 <ski> (before Haskell 1.4 or something ?)
22:59:08 <yin> "you see, a monad is this jiggling thing, and you can push a monad into another and they have this property you see, that they'll jiggle together"
23:00:13 <geekosaur> looks to melike it supports 256 colors but in an odd way: lower standard 16 are treated differently from the upper 240
23:00:15 × analoq quits (~yashi@user/dies) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
23:00:22 → bitdex joins (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex)
23:01:07 <ski> geekosaur : `16' ANSI colors, `6^3' RGB cube, `24' greyscale
23:01:47 <geekosaur> I was lookingt at https://hackage.haskell.org/package/vty-5.37/docs/Graphics-Vty-Attributes-Color240.html#v:rgbColorToColor240
23:02:05 <ski> > 16 + 6^3 + 24 :: Integer
23:02:07 <lambdabot> 256
23:03:04 <ski> geekosaur : i'm guessing that interpolates to the (in some metric) nearest among those `240'
23:03:46 ski . o O ( <https://github.com/termstandard/colors> )
23:04:42 × takuan quits (~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be) (Remote host closed the connection)
23:05:34 <EvanR> why was map renamed to fmap?
23:06:25 <dolio> Because some faction wanted to monomorphise map.
23:06:45 <dolio> I suppose for teaching purposes or something.
23:06:58 geekosaur will absolutely not be surprised if that decision gets reversed within the next few years
23:07:05 <EvanR> good.
23:07:21 <geekosaur> I mean, FTP already pretty much blew that faction out of the water
23:07:33 <dolio> Other functions were monomorphised at the same time. (++) used to be the MonadPlus operation.
23:07:54 <EvanR> imagine if length (the current foldable method) was renamed to flength
23:08:15 <EvanR> so length only worked on list xD
23:09:13 <dolio> Oh, and I guess comprehensions, too.
23:09:19 <EvanR> and then in 40 years new programming languages looked to haskell, only saw the length method, and made it so you could only measure the length of a list and no other structure
23:09:35 <yin> length does deserve *some* controversy though
23:09:36 <EvanR> ok I'm done venting about map
23:10:20 <EvanR> no I'm not, and the reason length won't be implemented for anything else is "you don't need it, you can simply write a loop to count the size of non lists"
23:10:54 <geekosaur> 2006 that was the state of haskell
23:11:06 <geekosaur> you used size on Maps/Sets
23:11:06 <ski> geekosaur : looking at the source, it seems it's doing just that. apparently if it's exactly on the diagonal, exactly hitting a `24' greyscale discrete point, it goes to the last `24', otherwise it approximates into the cube
23:11:10 <dolio> I think mzero used to be zero, too. And it was in a separate class.
23:11:53 <yin> EvanR:
23:11:58 <yin> @type length
23:11:59 <lambdabot> Foldable t => t a -> Int
23:12:08 <geekosaur> this was not the sort of silly I was thinking of
23:12:28 <EvanR> flength
23:12:38 <ski> @type length . toList
23:12:39 <lambdabot> Foldable t => t a -> Int
23:13:05 <ski> dolio : yes, `MonadZero' iirc
23:13:11 <EvanR> to be serious, "fmap" is strictly more scary to people when you try to suggest it or explain it, over "map"
23:13:25 <EvanR> map is familiar and makes sense to a lot of people, fmap must be alien thanks to the f
23:13:39 <EvanR> some weird haskell thing
23:13:44 <ski> `(.)' in lambdabot used to be `fmap'. and `flip :: Functor f => f (a -> b) -> (a -> f b)'
23:13:55 <ski> those were the days
23:13:57 <hpc> that flip definition is great
23:14:14 <hpc> also, the real answer to the fmap problem is (<$>)
23:14:27 <hpc> it and (<*>) are so cool that you quickly forget how intimidating it was before
23:14:38 <ski> (`sequence' is another alternative for `flip')
23:14:58 <yin> omg that flip
23:15:04 <kronicmage> ski: omg
23:15:04 <yin> <3
23:15:21 <hpc> you can .map() in other languages all day long, but as soon as you have two lists it's back to ugly nested list comprehensions
23:15:42 <yin> toList ('a',7)
23:15:47 <yin> > toList ('a',7)
23:15:49 <lambdabot> [()]
23:15:59 <ski> > toList ('a',7) :: [Integer]
23:16:00 × king_gs quits (~Thunderbi@187.201.192.184) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
23:16:01 <lambdabot> [7]
23:16:05 <yin> wait what?
23:16:15 <geekosaur> uh, maybe it's time for me to kill that Num instance for ()
23:16:18 ski slaps the `Num ()' instance that someone sneaked in the other day
23:16:25 <yin> loool
23:16:26 <geekosaur> (was shoiwing stuff off yesterday)
23:16:29 <geekosaur> @undefine
23:16:29 <lambdabot> Undefined.
23:16:31 × matthewmosior quits (~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Remote host closed the connection)
23:16:43 <ski> > length ('a',7)
23:16:44 <lambdabot> 1
23:16:47 <EvanR> (), the trivial ring / group
23:16:53 <hpc> i don't see the problem, it's just a really wide '0'
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23:17:23 <yin> yeah but it's the "unit" type
23:17:24 <EvanR> if it's not Num my poor ring polymorphic code won't have a zero
23:17:28 <yin> should look like a 1
23:17:50 <EvanR> empty tuple.. is 1
23:17:51 <geekosaur> but numbers start with 0, not 1
23:17:56 <hpc> yin: that's _|_
23:18:08 <geekosaur> lol
23:18:11 <yin> geekosaur: no that's Maybe ()
23:18:15 <ski> it's the terminal object in the category `Ring' of all rings and ring homomorphisms
23:18:37 <EvanR> that's what I meant
23:18:48 <Lears> yin: In the zero ring, zero /is/ one.
23:19:37 ski . o O ( "In Soviet Russia, everyone uses the field of one element." )
23:20:00 <yin> well i use base 10
23:20:13 <EvanR> is base 10 like, any base above 1
23:20:31 <yin> ;)
23:20:37 → raehik joins (~raehik@zone3.jesus.cam.ac.uk)
23:20:47 <ski> base `1' can't represent naturals
23:20:59 <EvanR> 1, 11, 111, 1111, ...
23:21:01 ski . o O ( <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_with_one_element> )
23:21:13 <ski> that's "unary"/"tallying"
23:22:05 <ski> you can only have one digit, in base `1'. since `111' is `...0000111', that's more than one digit
23:22:31 <yin> so... base 0?
23:22:39 × zeenk quits (~zeenk@2a02:2f04:a311:2d00:6865:d863:4c93:799f) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
23:22:53 <hpc> actually you have two numbers
23:22:58 <hpc> 1111111.....
23:23:01 <hpc> and 0.11111...
23:23:07 <ski> in base `0', only the lowest ("ones") digit matters. and it can be any whole number
23:23:42 <EvanR> what about mixed base, where all the bases are 1
23:23:48 <yin> hpc: yeah but how much is 0.1 in base 1?
23:23:56 <ski> (`n' modulo zero is `n'. so every `n' is a valid digit)
23:24:06 × matthewmosior quits (~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
23:24:33 ski . o O ( "All your bases are belong to one." )
23:25:03 <monochrom> I use base 4.14.3.0
23:25:33 × jespada quits (~jespada@cpc121060-nmal24-2-0-cust249.19-2.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
23:25:40 <yin> monochrom: you should update
23:25:41 hpc . o O ( modular arithmetic only exists if you import it )
23:26:33 <EvanR> does negative base automatically give you signed digits
23:27:06 <hpc> elliptic curves give you signed digits
23:27:14 <geekosaur> does fractional base give you fractal digits?
23:27:33 → edrx joins (~Eduardo@2804:56c:d2dc:ac00:dab8:211d:d4eb:fa94)
23:28:44 → LukeHoersten joins (~LukeHoers@user/lukehoersten)
23:28:50 <yin> 1/phi should be an interesting base
23:30:14 → jjido joins (~Denis@2.221.114.210)
23:30:44 <EvanR> base phi is a thing
23:31:26 <EvanR> m + n*phi
23:31:37 <yin> ooh: y^2 = sqrt(- 1/phi) -- ymaginary numbers
23:32:22 <yin> i need togo to sleep
23:33:27 <geekosaur> is this phi-losophy?
23:34:07 <hpc> the study of tau-tologies?
23:36:26 → matthewmosior joins (~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
23:36:54 <edrx> anyone here uses the "pipes" package? this one: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/pipes
23:37:58 <edrx> I'm trying to use it to write a function that pipes a string through a shell script and returns its output, but I'm too newbiesh
23:41:01 <edrx> ski gave me a hint that I am still trying to decypher... this one:
23:41:15 <edrx> "if you mean a `pipes' `Producer', then i guess you'd just use `getContents' (or a strict version of that, if you prefer)... `stdinAll = do str <- lift getContents; yield str' or `stdinAll = yield =<< lift getContents'"
23:41:15 × matthewmosior quits (~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
23:42:38 <edrx> the problem is that when I run that I get a stdinAll object whose type is:
23:42:48 <edrx> stdinAll :: Proxy x' x () String IO ()
23:43:08 → jespada joins (~jespada@cpc121060-nmal24-2-0-cust249.19-2.cable.virginm.net)
23:45:03 <ski> "does negative base automatically give you signed digits" -- not necessarily
23:45:22 × LukeHoersten quits (~LukeHoers@user/lukehoersten) (Read error: Connection timed out)
23:45:52 <ski> (you have to choose some residue system .. and, aiui, zero had better be in it)
23:46:14 <ski> factoriadic is also a nice mixed base system
23:47:59 × ec quits (~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
23:48:07 × califax quits (~califax@user/califx) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
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23:50:13 ski . o O ( <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_ternary>,<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_base>,<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio_base>,<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_coding>,<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeckendorf%27s_theorem>,<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factorial_number_system>,<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combinatorial_number_system> )
23:50:14 → ec joins (~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec)
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23:51:24 × raehik quits (~raehik@zone3.jesus.cam.ac.uk) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
23:51:32 <yin> ok ski, i *was going* to sleep
23:51:42 ski whistles innocently
23:52:01 <edrx> hi ski!
23:52:08 <ski> heya !
23:52:58 <edrx> I am still trying to understand your hint... I'm starting by the types, but I don't know if this is a good idea...
23:53:05 <ski> well, my `stdinAll' would simply be a producer that generates a single `String', being the whole of the `stdin' (rather than splitting it into separate lines, as the other example you had, the other day)
23:53:22 <ski> to call a shell script, you'd need to much around with `process', i'd imagine
23:53:25 <edrx> I made this: http://angg.twu.net/eev-haskell.html
23:53:36 <ski> s/much/muck/
23:54:50 → JamesF joins (~jef@92.40.190.201.threembb.co.uk)
23:55:25 <ski> (factoriadic is a nice way to index permutations (with finite support). combinatoriadic is for indexing a selection of `k' items from `n' total, e.g. if you want to do a random selection)
23:56:39 → LukeHoersten joins (~LukeHoers@user/lukehoersten)

All times are in UTC on 2022-09-21.