Logs on 2022-09-22 (liberachat/#haskell)
| 00:00:33 | <edrx> | I saw that haskell-mode has something like eldoc... it shows info about the symbol at point |
| 00:00:47 | <edrx> | is there a way to jump to the definition of a symbol? |
| 00:01:07 | <edrx> | I installed hoogle here but I don't know if it can be used for that |
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| 00:06:03 | <geekosaur> | you can create a TAGS file with something like hasktags and then it's M-. |
| 00:08:19 | <edrx> | thanks! let me try to install hasktags... |
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| 00:20:23 | <ski> | (oh, also forgot to mention <https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mixed_radix&oldid=1022676428#Primorial_number_system>, in the above context) |
| 00:20:48 | <edrx> | what is the right way to use hasktags? when I run "hasktags --etags" it gives me a help message that includes this line... "directories will be replaced by DIR/**/*.hs DIR/**/*.lhs Thus hasktags . tags all important files in the current directory" |
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| 00:21:01 | <edrx> | but I ran this: hasktags --etags . |
| 00:21:18 | <edrx> | and it didn't create any files (it seems) |
| 00:21:41 | <edrx> | oops, sorry, I ran this: "cd ~/usrc/pipes-4.3.16/; hasktags --etags ." |
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| 00:24:25 | <geekosaur> | do you have source files in that directory, or in a subdirectory? |
| 00:24:31 | <ski> | @where cabal-stack-disambiguation |
| 00:24:31 | <lambdabot> | "The Cabal/Stack Disambiguation Guide" at <https://gist.github.com/merijn/8152d561fb8b011f9313c48d876ceb07> by Merijn |
| 00:24:44 | <ski> | edrx : btw, did you see ^ yet ? |
| 00:25:20 | <edrx> | ski: which one of the ^s? |
| 00:25:34 | <geekosaur> | becuase it looks to me like it only scans the directory specified, not subdirectories (https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hasktags-0.72.0/docs/Hasktags.html#v:dirToFiles) |
| 00:25:37 | <ski> | (apropos ".. after installing a package with Cabal (or cabal-install??? Gosh!!!) ..") |
| 00:25:47 | <edrx> | geekosaur: ~/usrc/pipes-4.3.16/src/ has four .hs files |
| 00:25:49 | <ski> | the most recent one |
| 00:25:58 | <geekosaur> | thne you need to run it on src, not . |
| 00:26:03 | <edrx> | ok, trying! |
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| 00:27:57 | <edrx> | geekosaur: worked! silly me =( |
| 00:28:27 | <edrx> | ski: great! read and adding the link to my page!!! |
| 00:29:24 | <geekosaur> | you may also need to M-x visit-tags-table and point it to that file |
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| 00:31:06 | <edrx> | geekosaur: works =) |
| 00:33:43 | <edrx> | ski: done - now the "cabal-install" in http://angg.twu.net/eev-haskell.html points to that link! |
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| 01:34:28 | <shapr> | I wish haskell.org had a list of bugs to fix |
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| 02:29:39 | <EvanR> | this list of extensions as a data type in template haskell reveals... NPlusKPatterns... what |
| 02:31:42 | <pavonia> | Wasn't that deprecated or so? |
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| 02:41:43 | <c_wraith> | It used to be part of the standard, not an extension. |
| 02:42:00 | <c_wraith> | It was removed from the standard and GHC made it an extension - then deprecated the extension |
| 02:43:28 | <EvanR> | so n plus k patterns still work?? xD |
| 02:43:38 | <EvanR> | if you enable it |
| 02:43:47 | <c_wraith> | I believe so |
| 02:43:52 | <EvanR> | mind blown |
| 02:44:09 | <c_wraith> | not like I've tried. :P |
| 02:44:11 | <EvanR> | I'd hate to be making sure that still works in the face of ghc progress |
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| 03:18:18 | <ski> | i believe i tried it last year or so |
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| 04:20:51 | <johnw> | I've never tried that extension before |
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| 04:23:29 | <dolio> | That's probably one of the least problematic extensions to keep up to date. |
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| 07:06:37 | <f-a> | I want to spell check comments in a .hs file. For sure I can’t be the first person doing that, what is your way to feed haskell files to aspell or similar programs/ |
| 07:09:02 | <dminuoso> | f-a: You could just craft a attoparsec/megaparsec parser to extract them for you |
| 07:09:43 | <f-a> | that could be a way, I hoped for “oh there is unix utility xyz that does that for you” |
| 07:11:05 | <dminuoso> | oh there is unix utility https://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/bionic/man1/lu-comment-extractor.1.html that does that for you |
| 07:11:29 | <dminuoso> | Sorry, couldn't resist. :-) |
| 07:12:17 | <f-a> | hehe |
| 07:14:41 | <f-a> | pretty nice, thanks |
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| 08:00:18 | <Unhammerd> | Has anyone noticed performance differences with process (which seems to use String input/output) vs typed-process (lazy bytestring)? |
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| 09:08:56 | <pagnol> | Does anyone have a robust setup to use Haskell with org-babel? |
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| 10:54:00 | <MangoIV[m]> | Hi, did anyone here have any luck with that evaluation in place plug-in for HLS in nvim? Thanks in advance! |
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| 11:46:10 | <mesaoptimizer> | I feel like implicit associativity of Haskell operators is one very... un-functional programming feature |
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| 11:48:36 | <tdammers> | what does associativity have to do with functional-ness? |
| 11:48:38 | <mesaoptimizer> | at least for non-commutative operators. You _have_ to memorize the associativity and messing up the associativity in your head is an error that Haskell cannot catch |
| 11:49:02 | <tdammers> | but that has nothing to do with whether the language is "functional" or not |
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| 11:49:24 | <dminuoso> | I would argue that the term "functional" is very imprecise and means very different things for different people. |
| 11:49:31 | <dminuoso> | There is no universally accepted sharp definition of it. |
| 11:49:53 | <dminuoso> | Arguing whether something "is functional or not" is only with respect to your personal beliefs and definitions. |
| 11:50:08 | <tdammers> | unfortunately there isn't, but most reasonable definitions revolve around the concept of a "function" (and more specifically, "pure function") |
| 11:50:10 | <mesaoptimizer> | sure, which is why I used un- "functional programming", implying that it goes against the usual main draws of functional programming, at least from my beginner-level perspective |
| 11:51:18 | <mesaoptimizer> | agree I could have worded it better but that's a minor sidenote |
| 11:51:25 | <byorgey> | mesaoptimizer: what do you mean by "implicit associativity of Haskell operators"? Can you give an example? |
| 11:51:26 | <dminuoso> | Superficially I would argue that association is a grammatical artifact, and being "functional" is usually something on the semantic level. |
| 11:51:27 | <geekosaur> | LC doesn't even have operators, just functions and parens for grouping |
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| 11:51:38 | <ski> | mesaoptimizer : do you mean how operators get `infixl 9', if none specified ? |
| 11:51:47 | <tdammers> | either way, "functional" is generally about language semantics, not syntax - but operator precedence is a syntactic concern (once the operator has been parsed into an AST, its precedence and associativity is erased) |
| 11:51:58 | <tdammers> | so yeah |
| 11:51:58 | dminuoso | high fives tdammers |
| 11:52:01 | <tdammers> | woo hoo |
| 11:52:07 | <ski> | mesaoptimizer : also, i don't see what commutativity has to do with the associativity-disambiguation rules for operators |
| 11:52:39 | <ski> | (if you said "non-associative operators", that'd be a different thing ..) |
| 11:52:40 | <dminuoso> | Indeed. Commutatitivity too is a semantic thing, association is a grammatic thing. |
| 11:53:39 | <dminuoso> | But for what it is worth, I do have some sympathy for disliking operators since their associativity is invisible on editors most of the time. |
| 11:54:04 | <mesaoptimizer> | for example, the exponentiation operator ^ has infixr 8. that's TWO types of data one needs to keep in their head. Sure, you can memorize it, or look it up, and the benefit of making this implicit is conciseness, but I don't like how one can mistakenly assume the wrong infix or precedence and make logic errors |
| 11:54:32 | <geekosaur> | you can a;ways parenthesize |
| 11:54:40 | <dminuoso> | mesaoptimizer: I would argue that if its not visibly clear, you should be using (redundant) parenthesis anyway. |
| 11:55:12 | <ski> | imho, it would probably be better to assign relative strengths to different operators (or sets of them), rather than assign absolute (even totally ordered) ones to them |
| 11:55:17 | <tdammers> | another nasty consequence of the way Haskell does operators is that when you define aliases for them (e.g. for re-exporting), you have to define the fixity again |
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| 11:56:26 | <mesaoptimizer> | using redundant parentheses seems like a good best practice. I'll keep that in mind. |
| 11:56:54 | <ski> | > let foo (+) x = x + x + x where infixr 5 + in foo (-) 2 -- i don't know a way to specify precedence and associativity here |
| 11:56:56 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 11:56:56 | <lambdabot> | The fixity signature for ‘+’ lacks an accompanying binding |
| 11:56:56 | <lambdabot> | (The fixity signature must be given where ‘+’ is declared) |
| 11:57:12 | <geekosaur> | (and then HLS bitches at you for using unnecessary parens. shaddap already!) |
| 11:57:58 | <ski> | HLS, or hlint ? |
| 11:58:10 | <geekosaur> | hlint via HLS in my editor |
| 11:58:38 | <dminuoso> | Dont use hlint then! |
| 11:58:54 | <dminuoso> | Addressed other headaches you get too |
| 12:00:08 | ski | is generally a fan of avoiding redundant brackets, but will occasionally go out of their way to include some, for emphasis, or even just to avoid having to recall the relative precedence of some two operators not seen together too often |
| 12:02:06 | <ski> | (hence i write `sort :: Ord a => ..a..', not `sort :: (Ord a) => ..a..'; `data Blah = ... deriving Show', `let x:xs = ...', `case ... of x:xs -> ...', `Just x +*+ Just y = ...', &c.) |
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| 12:04:23 | <ski> | (also, occasionally, i find i'd like to be able to say `(foo x y) z = ...', not just `(x +*+ y) z = ...') |
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| 15:00:58 | <oats> | huh, effectful looks neat |
| 15:01:18 | <oats> | don't know how I missed its announcement in r/haskell a couple months ago, it looks well-received |
| 15:03:00 | <Hecate> | oats: :D don't hesitate to create bindings to other libraries! |
| 15:05:11 | <oats> | I've heard about various effects libraries for a while now, but idk if the community has really coalesced around any in particular |
| 15:05:16 | <oats> | could effectful be that one? |
| 15:05:17 | <Hecate> | not yet |
| 15:05:31 | <Hecate> | but I hope effectful + delconts will be nice |
| 15:06:38 | <oats> | delconts? |
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| 15:14:10 | <bahamas> | how can I convert NominalDiffTime to seconds, if I'm using a version of time before 1.9.1 (when nominalDiffTimeToSeconds was introduced)? |
| 15:14:42 | <bahamas> | basically, I want to know if the current time is before or past a certain time |
| 15:17:15 | <johnw> | might this work? |
| 15:17:16 | <johnw> | let (myNominalDiffTimeInSeconds, _) = properFraction myNominalDiffTime |
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| 15:22:42 | <Hecate> | oats: delimited continuations |
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| 15:29:20 | <EvanR> | bahamas, a NominalDiffTime is a number in units of seconds (with a fractional part), but it's a different type so needs a conversion |
| 15:29:36 | <EvanR> | try realToFrac or floor |
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| 15:30:36 | <EvanR> | oh, but comparing it to some official Time, that doesn't require that. But it does require getting the types straight |
| 15:31:09 | <EvanR> | NominalDiffTime is a diff time, while times are a different animal. So you just need to convert one to the other then use < |
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| 15:32:41 | <EvanR> | e.g. if you have a UTCTime, you can diff that with some reference UTCTime to get a NominalDiffTime |
| 15:33:07 | <EvanR> | or, you can add NominalDiffTime to the reference UTCTime to get a UTCTime. Either way you need the same type for comparison |
| 15:34:18 | <EvanR> | POSIXTime is like a hybrid, we all agree on the reference date, but it's technically a diff |
| 15:39:47 | <EvanR> | (if you convert to a float with floor or realToFrac, you will lose a bunch of precision, if the number is as big as unix time) |
| 15:40:17 | <EvanR> | (so it's better to do your time math directly like I just explained) |
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| 15:42:53 | <bahamas> | EvanR: well, I can get both times to be UTCTime than use the corresponding function |
| 15:43:08 | <bahamas> | but that function returns NominalDiffTime, so that's the issue |
| 15:43:10 | <EvanR> | hell yeah, UTCTime is an instance of Ord so you can just compare them |
| 15:43:20 | <EvanR> | what function? |
| 15:43:30 | <bahamas> | diffUTCTime I think it's called |
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| 15:43:37 | <EvanR> | :thonk: |
| 15:43:42 | <bahamas> | but if I can compare them, I think that should be enough |
| 15:44:03 | <EvanR> | yeah, I'm not sure it makes sense to diff two times, then ask if the result is before or after a UTCTime |
| 15:44:24 | <bahamas> | EvanR: no, I was checking if the number of seconds is greater than 0 |
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| 15:44:40 | <bahamas> | but now that you mentioned Ord, it sounds like my solution is a roundabout way |
| 15:44:44 | <EvanR> | use compare with the two UTCTimes xD |
| 15:44:49 | <EvanR> | :t compare |
| 15:44:50 | <lambdabot> | Ord a => a -> a -> Ordering |
| 15:44:50 | <bahamas> | right :) |
| 15:45:01 | <bahamas> | thanks! |
| 15:45:21 | <EvanR> | > floor (fromInteger 1663861268 :: Float) -- :scream: |
| 15:45:23 | <lambdabot> | 1663861248 |
| 15:45:57 | <bahamas> | a, actually, in another instance I need to know if current time is below 5 minutes before a certain time |
| 15:45:58 | <EvanR> | > let n = 1663861268 in floor (fromInteger n :: Float) - n |
| 15:46:00 | <lambdabot> | -20 |
| 15:46:10 | <bahamas> | for that I do need to compute a difference, no? |
| 15:46:29 | <EvanR> | the opposite |
| 15:46:30 | <geekosaur> | does it really use Float instead of Double? |
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| 15:46:35 | <EvanR> | no, I'm just saying |
| 15:47:03 | <EvanR> | bahamas, opposite, you want to shift your UTCTime down by 5 minutes to get another UTCTime to compare |
| 15:47:24 | <EvanR> | addUTCTime :: NominalDiffTime -> UTCTime -> UTCTime |
| 15:47:53 | <bahamas> | EvanR: oh, you mean add 5 minutes to currentTime and check if it's greater or lower than startTime |
| 15:48:05 | <EvanR> | earlier = addUTCTime (-5 * 60) limitTime |
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| 15:48:54 | <bahamas> | EvanR: anyway, I will figure this out. thanks for pointing me in the right direction |
| 15:49:28 | <EvanR> | geekosaur, it doesn't use float or double... but somebody might try to convert to floats to do comparisons. If they use double it won't lose 20 seconds but it does lose something compared to the raw time data |
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| 15:50:01 | geekosaur | thinks Float should be removed (and similarly float from C) |
| 15:50:13 | <geekosaur> | it's a trap |
| 15:50:23 | <EvanR> | the godot game engine is nothing but single precision floats ;_; |
| 15:50:34 | <EvanR> | they claim they need to support low end mobile |
| 15:50:55 | <EvanR> | (most graphics can work with single precision... it's fine...) |
| 15:51:07 | <EvanR> | (or even less precision) |
| 15:52:54 | ski | . o O ( `short double' ) |
| 15:53:58 | <geekosaur> | I'd be fine with that |
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| 15:54:59 | <EvanR> | B's got your back. No float or double. Or any types... |
| 15:55:20 | <ski> | 5-byte floating points are where it's at |
| 15:56:02 | <EvanR> | by the 1990s we will probably be totally using decimals anyway |
| 15:57:04 | <geekosaur> | someone's been programming HP calculators |
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| 16:16:43 | <Guest|30> | Hey every one, every time I try to install ghc, I get the following error: |
| 16:16:51 | <Guest|30> | Get-CimInstance : Invalid class |
| 16:16:51 | <Guest|30> | At line:206 char:17 |
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| 16:16:52 | <Guest|30> | + $partitions = Get-CimInstance win32_logicaldisk |
| 16:16:52 | <Guest|30> | + ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
| 16:16:52 | <Guest|30> | + CategoryInfo : MetadataError: (root\cimv2:win32_logicaldisk:String) [Get-CimInstance], CimException |
| 16:16:53 | <Guest|30> | + FullyQualifiedErrorId : HRESULT 0x80041010,Microsoft.Management.Infrastructure.CimCmdlets.GetCimInstanceCommand |
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| 17:56:32 | <EvanR> | > foldl1 (\a x -> a*10 + x) [1,2,3,4] -- 😎 |
| 17:56:34 | <lambdabot> | 1234 |
| 17:56:59 | <EvanR> | this has been your daily haskell |
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| 18:06:09 | <monochrom> | Can you do little endian too? Find g s.t. g [4,3,2,1] = 1234. |
| 18:07:02 | <johnw> | ". reverse" :) |
| 18:07:27 | <monochrom> | That's cheating! |
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| 18:07:49 | <johnw> | wait, functional programming isn't just input -> output, but has a fairness component too?? |
| 18:08:19 | <EvanR> | the function is pure, and total, but is it fair |
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| 18:08:29 | <monochrom> | No, but I am highly opinionated and subjective! |
| 18:09:37 | <darkling> | Doesn't game theory tell us that a function of two parameters must be either unfair or boring? |
| 18:10:59 | <int-e> | monochrom: How is it cheating? The next step will be... foldl1 f . reverse = foldr1 (flip f) |
| 18:11:17 | <monochrom> | I think unfair implies boring, so "unfair or boring" is simplifiable to "boring". |
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| 18:12:38 | <int-e> | . o O ( monochrom :: a -> IRC Opinion ) |
| 18:12:55 | <darkling> | I think in the original theorem, "unfair" means the first player always wins (or the second player always wins); "boring" means that the best either player can do is force a draw. |
| 18:13:41 | <int-e> | just add randomness |
| 18:13:51 | <int-e> | or hidden information |
| 18:15:02 | <monochrom> | I was joking! |
| 18:15:30 | <monochrom> | Unpopular opinion: randomness implies hidden information :) |
| 18:15:55 | <monochrom> | (OK OK you can cite quantum mechanics for randomness without hidden information. I was joking too!) |
| 18:15:58 | <darkling> | Sorry, I was being too serious. :) |
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| 18:16:11 | <dolio> | Quantum-ness implies hidden information. :þ |
| 18:16:26 | monochrom | tries to increase silliness, as agreed upon yesterday! |
| 18:16:39 | <darkling> | :D |
| 18:17:38 | <monochrom> | I happen to think that quantumness implies lack of information altogether! |
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| 18:18:28 | <monochrom> | But I guess you reply that "lack implies hidden, vacuously". |
| 18:20:20 | <geekosaur> | another "all variables are hidden" proponent \o/ |
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| 18:26:28 | <dolio> | Here's how you get Bell violations using hidden variables and describing your experiment in an overly-idealized way (which is standard in quantum mechanics :þ): https://hub.darcs.net/dolio/haskell-share/browse/quantum/Main.hs |
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| 18:28:53 | <mniip> | the quantum vs hidden information part is mostly about the difference between values that uniquely identify a state where each can be measured in principle, and values that can be simultaneously measured on a single instance of a system |
| 18:29:55 | <mniip> | with some reasoning about compound systems we conclude that the former have to grow quadratically wrt to the latter |
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| 18:31:50 | <mniip> | mostly referring to https://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0101012 |
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| 19:09:21 | <slack1256> | Is there a `stack` command to just generate the corresponding .cabal file via hpack? |
| 19:11:27 | <geekosaur[m]> | I think you just run hpack? |
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| 19:17:33 | <slack8060> | geekosaur[m]: mmmm that. |
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| 19:25:46 | <sm> | stack build --dry-run |
| 19:26:48 | <sm> | (ensures you use the hpack version in stack and avoid spurious diffs) |
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| 19:43:24 | <slack1256> | sm: Marvelous! |
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All times are in UTC on 2022-09-22.