Logs on 2022-09-29 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:10:20	<EvanR>	ByteString can't do it?
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00:20:15	<moonsheep>	huh?
00:20:18	<moonsheep>	what do you mean?
00:20:49	<moonsheep>	I use that function to convert cryptonite's ByteArrayAccess stuff into ByteStrings
00:21:03	<moonsheep>	instead of some cursed unsafeio homebrew solution
00:22:07	<EvanR>	oh, that is specifically for cryptonite
00:24:21	<janus>	apropos cryptonite, funny how nobody seems to hit this infinite loop https://github.com/haskell-foundation/foundation/issues/569
00:27:23	<moonsheep>	EvanR: yeah that was the issue I was having this morning
00:27:54	<moonsheep>	janus: always used stock prelude, so no idea
00:28:47	<janus>	moonsheep: what is the relation to the prelude?
00:28:57	<moonsheep>	you linked foundation
00:29:01	<moonsheep>	isn't that an alternative prelude?
00:29:05	<moonsheep>	or am I misremembering?
00:29:49	<EvanR>	actually yeah basement is like, the foundation of ... foundation
00:29:57	<janus>	it's not really an alternative prelude, even though i see it does use that kinda of terminology
00:30:09	<EvanR>	an alternative base?
00:30:27	<janus>	doesn't really matter what we call it, the gist of it is that cryptonite uses it
00:30:35	<moonsheep>	oh right
00:30:47	<moonsheep>	well either way I haven't hit any infinite loop
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00:36:33	<Axman6>	janus: more worrying than the fact it exists is the fact is hasn't been fixed yet...
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00:51:26	<johnw>	how can I ask GHC what the HOST_ARCH flag is for my system?
00:51:41	<monochrom>	I am going to troll the world and name my alternative prelude RoofGarden. :)
00:52:47	<monochrom>	I think System.Info has it.
00:52:57	<johnw>	ah, thank you
00:52:59	<johnw>	just found that too
00:53:11	<geekosaur>	or ghc --info (look for "Host platform")
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01:06:13	<johnw>	ah, that's what I was looking for
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01:26:31	<Clinton[m]>	I feel like I can simplify this but I'm not sure exactly how:
01:26:31	<Clinton[m]>	```
01:26:31	<Clinton[m]>	foldl' (.) id . map f
01:26:31	<Clinton[m]>	```
01:31:01	<monochrom>	foldl' (\a x -> a . f x) id
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01:33:10	<monochrom>	appEndo . foldMap (Endo . f) >:)
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01:36:38	<Clinton[m]>	monochrom: I deleted because I thought I worked it out but I didn't.
01:36:39	<Clinton[m]>	Basically I want to write `f :: (a -> b -> b) -> [a] -> b -> b`
01:42:56	<jackdk>	:t flip . foldl' . flip
01:42:57	<lambdabot>	Foldable t => (a -> c -> c) -> t a -> c -> c
01:43:58	<EvanR>	:t \f -> flip . f . flip
01:43:59	<lambdabot>	((b1 -> a1 -> c1) -> a2 -> b2 -> c2) -> (a1 -> b1 -> c1) -> b2 -> a2 -> c2
01:44:04	<EvanR>	handy
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02:59:03	<Square>	I'd imagine cabal command list quite confusing for beginners. cabal build/new-build/v1-build/v2-build !!
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03:00:21	L29Ah	wishes there was a function to pin/unpin a ByteString in O(<length(s))
03:01:48	<EvanR>	we should make a new build system to manage all the ways build with the build systems
03:02:46	<EvanR>	pinning out of the blue seems hard because it's probably sitting in the GC region which is dynamic
03:02:57	<EvanR>	unpinning though
03:04:36	<pavonia>	What is pinning?
03:05:58	<sm>	Square: yup
03:06:16	L29Ah	rewrites his stuff to use ShortByteString for everything that lives longer than a few hundreds of syscalls
03:11:55	<jackdk>	EvanR: Nix! (And I say that with great affection)
03:12:54	<janus>	pavonia: "Pinning is the ability to tell the garbage collector not to move a specific object. "
03:13:23	<EvanR>	heap objects are normally moved around regularly by the garbage collector, unless they are pinned. Which is handy for interfacing with e.g. C
03:13:42	<pavonia>	Thanks
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04:10:22	<Axman6>	I'm sure there's a function for this that doesn't involve a guard or an if statement: safe n = if n >= 0 then n `mod` 256 else 256 - (n `mod` 256)
04:12:06	<dolio>	abs n `mod` 256?
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04:13:44	<Axman6>	nah:
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04:14:41	<Axman6>	for n = -234567, the result should be 185 but that gives 71
04:15:19	<dolio>	> 256 - (-234567) `mod` 256
04:15:21	<lambdabot>	71
04:17:46	<monochrom>	> (-234567) `div` 256
04:17:48	<lambdabot>	-917
04:18:12	<monochrom>	err quot
04:18:17	<monochrom>	> (-234567) `rem` 256
04:18:19	<lambdabot>	-71
04:18:36	<monochrom>	close enough? :)
04:18:53	<Axman6>	it might be with a cast via word8...
04:20:41	<Axman6>	> let let f :: Int -> Int; f n = fromIntegral @Word8 @Int (fromIntegral (n `rem` 256)) in (f 234567, f (-234567))
04:20:42	<lambdabot>	<hint>:1:32: error:
04:20:42	<lambdabot>	Pattern syntax in expression context: fromIntegral@Word8
04:20:42	<lambdabot>	Did you mean to enable TypeApplications?
04:20:46	<Axman6>	% let let f :: Int -> Int; f n = fromIntegral @Word8 @Int (fromIntegral (n `rem` 256)) in (f 234567, f (-234567))
04:20:46	<yahb2>	<interactive>:144:112: error: ; parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
04:20:54	<Axman6>	% let f :: Int -> Int; f n = fromIntegral @Word8 @Int (fromIntegral (n `rem` 256)) in (f 234567, f (-234567))
04:20:54	<yahb2>	<interactive>:146:43: error: ; Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘Word8’ ; Perhaps you meant ‘Word’ (imported from Prelude)
04:20:59	<Axman6>	:(
04:21:02	<Axman6>	anyway, that works
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04:23:06	<monochrom>	if n>=0 then n `mod` 256 else (-n) `rem` (-256) >:)
04:23:45	<monochrom>	err nevermind
04:24:22	<monochrom>	No that's actually right haha.
04:24:42	<Axman6>	branchless bro
04:24:51	<Axman6>	PR submitted: https://github.com/haskell-foundation/foundation/pull/570
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04:30:12	<janus>	cool, thanks for working on a PR
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05:19:34	<Axman6>	I had some time waiting for some benchmarking to run at work
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05:49:32	<hololeap>	what's the relationship between Simon Peyton Jones and Michael Peyton Jones?
05:49:59	<hololeap>	just curious
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06:10:30	<kenran>	Do you usually define -O2 in your .cabal files? Our "deployment" overrides the optimization flags anyway, so I'd guess purely for development it would be better to not use img
06:10:34	<kenran>	it*
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06:18:29	<hololeap>	no, using -02 as a default is discouraged, unless you have benchmarks that show it actually increases performance above -O1
06:18:35	<hololeap>	*-O2
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06:21:37	<hololeap>	https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/using-optimisation.html#ghc-flag--O2
06:21:55	<kenran>	hololeap: ty!
06:22:16	<hololeap>	speaking of, I heard that omitting any -O? options was the same as -O1, but this makes it sound like it's actually -O0
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08:26:51	<phma>	dminuoso: Constant-time ladder rungs are made by computing two numbers (EC points or RSA numbers) and discarding one. Laziness results in the unneeded number not being computed.
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08:38:57	<dminuoso>	phma: Like I said, lazyness can be gotten rid of.
08:39:17	<dminuoso>	You can make things strict by using BangPatterns or seq/pseq
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08:40:21	<DigitalKiwi>	hololeap: father son i think
08:40:53	<Franciman>	dminuoso: that's not enough
08:41:09	<Franciman>	even if you use bang patterns, there is still laziness going on
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08:41:54	<dminuoso>	Franciman: Given the specific situation mentioned, its fine though.
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08:42:21	<Franciman>	furthermore, completely removing laziness can be undesirable sometimes
08:42:52	<Franciman>	because you would make the runtime an hard time to figure how to optimise your code
08:42:54	<Franciman>	for speed
08:43:29	<dminuoso>	Franciman: Yes, but given the topic discussed thats absolutely desirable.
08:43:58	<Franciman>	no i was commenting on my comment
08:44:00	<Franciman>	sorry
08:44:02	<Franciman>	don't worry
08:44:03	<dminuoso>	Without some peer reviewed research, which sadly does not exist currently, you should not write cryptographic code in Haskell - especially more so with optimization enabled.
08:44:14	<dminuoso>	But I dont want to rant about cryptonite today.
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08:46:46	<probie>	If you do crypto entirely over unboxed types, how is it much different to other programming languages?
08:47:23	<dminuoso>	probie: The simplifier can do extremely far reaching optimizations in Haskell.
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08:48:21	<dminuoso>	Can can easily affect execution time and caching behavior.
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08:49:36	<{-d0t-}>	ohai! Is it possible to make stack checkout repos from extra-deps into a particular path, rather than /tmp?
08:50:01	<dr_merijn>	probie: It isn't, because security kinda demands something along those lines
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08:50:26	<dr_merijn>	I suppose linear haskell might allow a higher level approach to be secure, but then that's fairly niche
08:50:46	<probie>	dminuoso: Isn't that also true for any language with an aggressive optimiser?
08:51:16	<dr_merijn>	probie: Yes, consider C which (up until basically this year) had no spec compliant way to guarantee data was zeroed out
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08:52:15	<dminuoso>	probie: Yup. That's why in robust cryptographic implementations the optimizations are very carefully chosen, and machine output analysed to ensure constant time guarantees remain.
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08:53:13	<probie>	dminuoso: cool - I think we're on the same page. I thought you were saying Haskell in particular is bad, not that it belongs to a class of languages which are bad
08:53:16	<dminuoso>	At least -O0 might not even be enough, as GHC will apply a variety of optimizations too
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08:53:41	<dminuoso>	probie: Im just saying its terrible for cryptography simply because no peer-reviewed research or into viability for robust cryptographic implementations exist.
08:53:45	<dr_merijn>	dminuoso: Although, I don't entirely agree with "don't write cryptographic code in Haskell", more like: "Don't write security sensitive cryptographic code in Haskell" :p
08:53:52	<dminuoso>	Sure.
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08:54:15	<dr_merijn>	I'm fairly sure cryptonite's hashes are perfectly fine
08:54:44	<dminuoso>	dr_merijn: Again, that depends. If you use them for password validation they probably are not.
08:54:53	<dminuoso>	Wouldn't trust anything but libsodium for that.
08:55:43	<__monty__>	probie: It is particularly unsuited probably. AFAIK there has been no serious analysis of all the side-channels the run-time causes.
08:56:48	<dminuoso>	Which is another thing, I would rather trust Berinstein, Lange and Schwage to do this. Vincent just does not seem to have any publications in cryptography at all.
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09:02:10	<probie>	I've always thought that cryptographic code would best be written in purpose-built languages which have appropriate primitives (e.g. constant time eq, if which executes both branches etc.)
09:02:48	<dminuoso>	And ideally executed on special purpose hardware. :>
09:02:53	<__monty__>	Vive la cryptol!
09:02:58	<dr_merijn>	probie: Like Ivory ;)
09:03:05	<dr_merijn>	(it was ivory, I think?)
09:03:25	<dr_merijn>	Which is a DSL implemented in haskell for generating C code for cryptographic stuff
09:03:42	<dminuoso>	Modern super scalar CPUs are horrible, given that different instructions have different latencies, you have multiple execution units, stalling the pipeline can leak information about the internal pipeline stages
09:03:47	<dminuoso>	And the worst is: every CPU is different.
09:04:24	<dminuoso>	There's not a lot of research into the various side-channels of cryptographic code running on modern super scalar machines as far as I know
09:04:35	<dminuoso>	(Or constant power consumption!)
09:05:37	<dminuoso>	And its nearly impossible to do well, since much of these microarchitecture details are secret. There's no documentation about what microops exist, how they perform, which instruction is compiled into which microop...
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09:27:11	<lortabac>	I have -Werror in the cabal config, how do I disable it on the command line? (I always forget this)
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09:52:42	<lortabac>	it worked with -Wwarn
10:00:39	<kenran>	I'm having a strange problem with code that works fine in seemingly all cases on Linux, while it fails on macOS. It looks like writing into a named pipe (fifo) - it doesn't seem to happen for normal pipes - blocks indefinitely, depending on the size of data. I'll spend the next time trying to minimize the problem, as our setup is way too complicated to reason about, but maybe one of you has stumbled over something similar?
10:01:13	<dr_merijn>	kenran: Writing into pipes blocks when there's no reader, yes
10:01:23	<kenran>	So far I know that the default maximum capacity of pipes is smaller on macOS than it is on Linux, but then again, if I just send more data on Linux I never get it to fail.
10:01:32	<dr_merijn>	kenran: Might be difference in kernel buffer size between linux and macOS?
10:02:09	<kenran>	There always is a reader (that is, I am the reader and I _think_ [logs tell me] that the reader is ready and trying to read).
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10:02:53	<dr_merijn>	kenran: I would test with your code on one side and a dirty shell script or something on the other to see if anything actually goes through
10:03:06	<dr_merijn>	(i.e. your code writing, some quick script reading and vice versa)
10:03:20	<kenran>	There's more to my problem which I will try to minimize away, like we're using the serialise library and its hPutSerialise to write, while similarly reading on the other side, and I really get confused with where laziness comes in there.
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10:04:45	<kenran>	dr_merijn: yeah good advice, thanks! I'll need quite some time to get there, as the named pipe is used for communication between two processes, and the one that's started is not easily startable without its parent giving it data in a very specific manner. I mean, it's really hard to even attach a shell script/C reader.
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10:06:30	<kenran>	I've thought about trying to confirm the capacity thing first by trying to increase it and see if it still fails. Then I'd at least know that I'll always have to work around that and send the data "some other way".
10:06:48	<fendor[m]>	anyone opinions on sensible warnings for beginners? -Wall is from time to time too much
10:07:20	<kenran>	fendor[m]: got an example of what might be too much? Missing top-level type signatures or such?
10:07:44	<fendor[m]>	Missing top-level signatures is the one I desperately want since they have to add the signatures 😄
10:08:15	<edm>	(beginner question) - on the implementation of length with foldr in graham hutton's course, it's presented as: length xs = foldr (\_ n -> n+1) 0 xs
10:08:31	<kenran>	:D yeah that's great when teaching I suppose
10:09:26	<edm>	i sort of accept how it works but i'm not really sure how n is initialised nor more broadly how the lambda function can accept two arguements when it's only being presented with each element of the list each time
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10:10:07	<fendor[m]>	I am not entirely sure whether -Wall is really too much, and I don't have an example from the top of my head what warning might be bad/misleading/too much
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10:11:29	<talismanick>	Which library best models transactional IO operations rolled back and retried until they succeed? Presumably one of the effect libraries.
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10:12:51	<talismanick>	With similarity to logic programming idioms, treating the file system as a successively more-instantiated monotoniclogic variable
10:13:10	<talismanick>	(well, that'd be convenient, but that's an interface detail)
10:13:22	<dr_merijn>	fendor[m]: the only one I personally dislike is -Wwarn-unused-do-bind, so I turn that off, the rest of Wall seems fine
10:14:10	<kenran>	fendor[m]: I've used -Wall plus -Werror=incomplete-patterns and -Werror=missing-fields in a project with multiple people who had never done Haskell before. I mean it's not real evidence for anything but I can't remember them ever having been confused by one of the warnings (as opposed to some of the genuine error messages :))
10:14:22	<edm>	forget the above, I now see
10:14:25	<talismanick>	e.g. say I wanted to recurse up the current directory's parents and try editing their contents until a satisfactory state is reached
10:14:45	<dminuoso>	talismanick: STM?
10:15:14	<fendor[m]>	thanks, these are great points. I wasn't sure whether I should use -Werror, since while it might be good coding practice, while learning it might forbid code that is valid
10:15:17	<dminuoso>	Ah hold on, I was scrolled up and didnt see anything past your first message
10:15:36	<dminuoso>	fendor[m]: -Wcompat should be a default too.
10:16:13	<dminuoso>	I recall a proposal to do that even
10:16:15	<talismanick>	dminuoso: STM is great, until it gets muddled with IO business :)
10:16:28	<dminuoso>	talismanick: well you can do unsafely perform in STM.
10:16:33	<dminuoso>	*unsafely perform IO
10:16:39	<__monty__>	kenran: Maybe you can wedge something like tee(1) in between two named pipes?
10:16:49	<dminuoso>	talismanick: Actually the more I think about it, it could be an option for you
10:17:21	<dminuoso>	The biggest problem is that in STM you might have transient incorrect transactions
10:17:23	<__monty__>	edm: You probably realized but it's just partial application. Building up a function that takes a single argument.
10:17:56	<talismanick>	"there's got to be a better way!"
10:18:04	<edm>	__monty__: i think in my case i thought n had to be initialised as 0 first then incremented up until it found a []
10:18:14	<dminuoso>	fendor[m]: and -Wcompat is not even in -Wall, though I feel it should be.
10:18:15	<talismanick>	Introducing: new, Kitchen Gun!
10:18:29	<edm>	__monty__: but of course it's more that it's 1+1+... until it's terminated with 0. i just wasn't visualising it correctly
10:18:53	<talismanick>	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-7NDP8V-6A
10:18:53	<edm>	and so yes, n does indeed represent the tail of the list
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10:20:31	<talismanick>	(I don't really know what algebraic effects are, and at this point I'm afraid to ask)
10:20:57	<kenran>	__monty__: I'll have to read more about how to do that, interesting idea! Maybe that is really applicable in my case.
10:21:21	<talismanick>	well, they seemed somewhat similar operationally to CL's stack unwinding, the last I read a little
10:21:23	<fendor[m]>	-Wcompat feels like overkill a bit to me... We are using recent enough GHC versions anyway, except for the class Eq proposal (removing (/=)), I don't think we should run into any big issues for the students
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10:24:26	<dminuoso>	fendor[m]: Ah fair. I consider Wcompat to be helpful in general software, since it lets you know when primitives that you are using are deprecated.
10:24:53	<dminuoso>	Lets you migrate to upstream changes more easily, rather than deciphering compilation errors when things get removed or changed.
10:25:02	<kenran>	dminuoso: I didn't even know about -Wcompat, I'll definitely add this at work, thanks
10:25:05	<dminuoso>	But probably not so useful in a student setting
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10:29:20	<DigitalKiwi>	-j -threaded -Wall -Wcompat -W -Wtabs -rtsopts
10:29:20	<DigitalKiwi>	---j -threaded -Werror -Wall -Wcompat -W -Wtabs -rtsopts
10:30:05	<DigitalKiwi>	ghc-options: -j -threaded -Wall -Wcompat -W -Wtabs -rtsopts -fno-max-valid-hole-fits -fno-max-relevant-binds -fwarn-unused-imports -fwarn-unused-binds -ddump-minimal-imports -fmax-pmcheck-models=5000000
10:30:28	<dr_merijn>	DigitalKiwi: unused imports and binds are default, I'm pretty sure?
10:30:29	<DigitalKiwi>	i don't always use -Werror but I always eventually use -Werror
10:31:48	<DigitalKiwi>	well i wouldn't want them to go and change the default without me knowing now would i
10:34:25	<edm>	__monty__: thank you for the foldr nudge, that made me go and explicitly right out the application step by step and forced me to look at the foldr implementation, which cleared up a slight confusion about how it terminates. _now_ i think i get it, though i reserve the right to be wrong
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10:44:55	<__monty__>	> foldr f z [a,b,c]
10:44:57	<lambdabot>	f a (f b (f c z))
10:45:02	<__monty__>	; )
10:45:19	<__monty__>	> foldl f z [a,b,c] -- Just in case.
10:45:20	<lambdabot>	f (f (f z a) b) c
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11:13:33	<edm>	__monty__: oh cool, thanks
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12:47:03	<jonathanx>	is there any tool for moving stuff between modules? data-definitions, newtypes, functions etc. I'd like to automate the process of adding/removing language extensions & required imports, as well as updating all references
12:47:27	<jonathanx>	Right now when I move sth I need to go through all callsites and update the import statements, which makes refactoring a hassle
12:48:02	<jonathanx>	I'm on ghc 9.0.2 if that helps
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12:54:51	<geekosaur>	I don't think so. HLS hasn't gotten there yet (it still doesn't even adjust imports for suggested typ signatures, much less that). yi was working on that kind of thing but was abandoned
12:55:39	<geekosaur>	*type
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13:01:02	<DigitalKiwi>	https://mostlyabsurd.com/posts/2019/06/03/minimal-imports-maximal-imports/
13:01:24	<DigitalKiwi>	https://www.haskellforall.com/2018/10/detailed-walkthrough-for-beginner.html
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13:21:31	<DigitalKiwi>	lol so i did a thing https://www.redbubble.com/shop/ap/126166515?ref=studio-promote
13:23:03	<DigitalKiwi>	i for one thing my tagging is hilarious https://mostlyabsurd.com/files/2022-09-29-082240_2350x713_scrot.png
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13:24:19	<DigitalKiwi>	https://www.redbubble.com/shop/ap/126086308 is also tagged pink lol
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13:36:10	<DigitalKiwi>	https://www.redbubble.com/shop/ap/126167868?ref=studio-promote ehehe
13:36:35	<DigitalKiwi>	where's noan when you need them lol :(
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14:34:05	<kenran>	Using `openFile path WriteMode` throws "file does not exist" for a named pipe created with System.Posix.Files.createNamedPipe path. Using ReadWriteMode works though. I don't really see where that's coming from, looking at the documentation. Any pointers?
14:37:38	<geekosaur>	named pipes are odd. you can't open for write unless something else has it open for read; see the system docs for named pipes
14:38:20	<kenran>	Ah, then it's because the "reader" opens it a little bit later. Thanks, exactly what I was looking for geekosaur!
14:38:24	<geekosaur>	it ends up that the first opener should use ReadWriteMode and you send complete messages over it rather than relying on close
14:38:42	<geekosaur>	because once closed you have to close and reopen
14:39:02	<geekosaur>	named pipes are really annoying, they're not at all what you might hope for
14:39:32	<geekosaur>	I'm tempted to say that in most cases where you think you want a named pipe, you really want an AF_UNIX socket
14:39:48	<kenran>	I've tried debugging the problem I had earlier and we've gotten it down to some code <100 lines that _sometimes_ works on macOS, sometimes doesn't work (blocks indefinitely), and always works on Linux.
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14:40:47	<kenran>	and yeah, it's really annoying. it was good to refresh what little knowledge I had of lower-level things, lazy bytestring IO and such.
14:40:57	<kenran>	though*
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14:42:48	<kenran>	geekosaur: yeah, I was tempted to try using domain sockets for this. But I think I could also break this whole problem down into bits and pieces and make do with just stdin, stdout, stderr communication with my child process (and get rid of the named pipe altogether).
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17:18:31	<fmgornick>	?src zipWith
17:18:31	<lambdabot>	zipWith f (a:as) (b:bs) = f a b : zipWith f as bs
17:18:31	<lambdabot>	zipWith _ _ _ = []
17:19:07	<ski>	fmgornick : btw, you can private message lambdabot too, you know
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17:23:14	<EvanR>	quit stealing our codez!
17:24:48	<ski>	@keal
17:24:49	<lambdabot>	Keal was so happy with T, coded in basic so run on anything, and does lot
17:25:32	<monochrom>	the usual quip about duplicating data does not cause anyone losing the data therefore doesn't count as stealing, and the connection with linear logics and types!
17:28:23	<geekosaur>	could also just download the database (https://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot/blob/master/lambdabot/State/source)
17:28:33	<geekosaur>	or look at the haskell libraries report
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17:30:04	<ski>	(presumably it's someone working through basics, has noticed lambdabot has a `src' command, but don't know / think of using it in PM)
17:30:23	<ski>	(i've seen them do the same thing, three times, now)
17:30:34	<geekosaur>	more than three
17:30:42	<geekosaur>	been doing it for several weeks
17:31:08	<ski>	i see
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17:32:00	<geekosaur>	oh, they left already
17:32:19	<ski>	they did, soon after, the other times i saw, too
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17:32:27	<geekosaur>	yep
17:32:46	<geekosaur>	was hoping they'd stick around a bit since they'd been addressed
17:33:03	<ski>	maybe i wasn't fast enough for them to notice ..
17:33:42	<monochrom>	Eventually they will automate it with a script. join-msg-quit no gap. Then you will never be fast enough.
17:34:34	<ski>	i fear you may be assuming too much ability (or desire) to automate such things
17:34:42	<probie>	If that script is written in Haskell it's probably paid off
17:35:17	<EvanR>	monochrom, you wouldn't download source code
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17:35:44	<ski>	.. but rather object code or executables/binaries ?
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17:36:00	<EvanR>	with a suitable EULA yes
17:36:05	<EvanR>	get the facts
17:36:15	<monochrom>	I have downloaded a lot of source code, and likely will still do.
17:36:46	<monochrom>	I have downloaded all kinds of things.
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17:37:16	<EvanR>	maybe you have, but you wouldn't
17:37:19	<ski>	facts would sometimes be stated in source code, sometimes in a binary format
17:37:22	<monochrom>	OK why?
17:37:44	<EvanR>	hangs up the phone
17:37:53	<ski>	(logic programming source vs. deductive DB)
17:38:08	<monochrom>	Is this one of those prank phone calls?
17:38:30	<monochrom>	ring ring "hello time to pee haha" hang up
17:39:14	<EvanR>	more like an intellectual property arnold schwarzenegger sound board
17:39:30	<monochrom>	(I and my sisters did that after seeing it done on TV)
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17:40:57	ski	only recalls listening to a CD with recorded prank calls (sent over radio) in school
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17:41:30	<geekosaur>	my cousin had several LPs of things like that
17:41:34	<ski>	(iirc, one of them involved calling two pizza places, getting them to talk to each other, each thinking the other was the customer)
17:41:51	<geekosaur>	and radio bloopers ("excuse me while I take a leak out the window" and such)
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17:42:46	<ski>	(in another, they called a hot dog place, asked about mashed potatoes, heard they claimed it was home-made, asked how they transported it to the kiosk place, learned that it was made there, then asked if they lived in the kiosk ..)
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18:50:35	<SridharRatnakuma>	ping
18:51:12	<[exa]>	pong
18:51:59	<edmundnoble>	ding
18:52:08	<darkling>	squerp
18:52:26	<[exa]>	is my knowledge of ICMP incomplete?
18:52:33	<ski>	@ping
18:52:33	<lambdabot>	pong
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18:53:34	<darkling>	I think my packet had the Evil bit set. :)
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18:59:35	<geekosaur>	you can clal it whatever you want; ICMP calls it ECHO REPLY, after all
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19:03:27	<sm>	woo, found a stray 33G ghci
19:03:49	<sm>	I thought things were feeling a bit sluggish
19:04:13	<ski>	what was it doing ?
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19:05:29	<sm>	I couldn't actually find the window. It might have been running hledger-ui
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19:43:41	<kavvadias>	hey everyone, im stuck with something and any help would be appreciated, how would i find the same elements of two lists and then take them out of both?
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19:45:36	<monochrom>	The \\ operator can do it in one direction. Perhaps use it twice for two directions.
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19:46:23	<monochrom>	If it is not already in Prelude, you can get it from Data.List
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19:50:00	<kavvadias>	thank you monochrom
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20:24:07	<DigitalKiwi>	П> import Data.List.Unique
20:24:09	<DigitalKiwi>	П> list1 =[1,2,3,4,5] ; list2 =[5,6,7,8,9]
20:24:11	<DigitalKiwi>	П> unique $ list1++list2
20:24:13	<DigitalKiwi>	[1,2,3,4,6,7,8,9]
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20:27:34	<DigitalKiwi>	П> list1' = repeated $ list1++list3
20:27:35	<DigitalKiwi>	П> list2' = repeated $ list2++list3
20:27:38	<DigitalKiwi>	П> list1'
20:27:40	<DigitalKiwi>	[1,2,3,4]
20:27:42	<DigitalKiwi>	П> list2'
20:27:44	<DigitalKiwi>	[6,7,8,9]
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20:59:27	<levitating>	Hey, I have a program which reads stdin on a loop using getChar. How can I terminate this safely when it reaches EOF?
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21:03:15	<Hecate>	levitating: match on EOF? or use `getLine`?
21:03:33	<monochrom>	getChar does not return EOF, there is nothing to match.
21:03:47	<Hecate>	damn
21:03:51	<Hecate>	then yeah I guess getLine
21:04:15	<levitating>	using getLine still terminates with an error
21:04:24	<levitating>	Unless there is a way to check for EOF that I don't know about
21:04:36	<monochrom>	isEOF can "predict" whether the next read will be EOF.
21:04:58	<levitating>	I was looking for something like that yeah
21:05:05	<levitating>	I'll try it out, thanks
21:05:18	<monochrom>	The truth is of course isEOF actually reads (and if successful, caches for the next read)
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21:06:38	<DigitalKiwi>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/readline-1.0.3.0/docs/System-Console-Readline.html
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21:08:19	<c_wraith>	if you don't mind being really sketchy, getContents probably has the simplest interface
21:09:24	<monochrom>	or deeply understanding the interplay between evaluation order and getContents so your usage is not sketchy, which is what I do.
21:10:10	<monochrom>	(I feed getContents to an incremental parser, works simple and great for ACM ICPC style I/O)
21:10:12	<c_wraith>	sure, but that's not simple anymore. It's correct
21:10:46	<monochrom>	Oh! Tautologically, a program is either sketchy or correct :)
21:11:13	<darkling>	Damn you! I'm now trying to think of something that's both.
21:11:16	<levitating>	isEOF worked fine for now
21:11:19	<levitating>	Thanks guys
21:11:45	<monochrom>	Although, beyond ACM ICPC style I/O (which is very simpleton), getContents becomes hard to predict quickly.
21:12:07	<DigitalKiwi>	https://markkarpov.com/tutorial/megaparsec.html#forcing-consumption-of-input-with-eof
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21:12:56	<monochrom>	darkling: We can have subjective qualitative assessment of proof quality, if a proof of correctness is sketchy, you can have both sketchy and correct :)
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21:13:59	<monochrom>	Actually I don't use getContents for that, I use interact.
21:14:05	<darkling>	I was thinking something like optimisation heuristics. Never going to get the optimum, but will do well enough if you get it right.
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21:15:35	<monochrom>	Most people would call that "that's being practical, don't be an anal perfectionist" :)
21:15:40	ski	. o O ( `isEOF' forces the current tail )
21:15:46	<darkling>	(Revealing an earlier life as an operational researcher)
21:15:47	<ski>	"ACM ICPC style I/O" ?
21:16:58	<c_wraith>	where the input is all some trivial format and adheres to it rigidly
21:18:25	<ski>	what's "ICPC" ?
21:18:55	<ski>	(some conference ?)
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21:19:02	<DigitalKiwi>	curl -sO https://raw.githubusercontent.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/master/maintainers/maintainer-list.nix && nix-instantiate maintainer-list.nix --eval --strict --json\|jq '[.[]]'\|jq '.[]'\|jq '[.name,.email,.github]' -c\|cut -f2- -d '['\|cut -f1 -d ']'\|sed 's\|,"\| <\|1'\|sed 's\|","\|>,\|1'\|rev\|cut -f2- -d','\|rev > maintainer-list-nix.txt
21:19:03	<c_wraith>	international collegiate programming competition
21:19:11	<ski>	hm, okay
21:19:14	<ski>	(never heard)
21:19:15	<DigitalKiwi>	i am pretty sure that is sketchy and correct
21:19:39	<DigitalKiwi>	arguably anything i do with jq fits the bill lol
21:19:45	<monochrom>	So it is only stdin and stdout. It usually goes like "the input has 0 or more lines, each line has 0 or more numbers separated by spaces". Sometimes there are prefixes telling you how many to expect, or sentinels telling you where it ends; other times you have to check for end of line or EOF.
21:19:46	darkling	awards DigitalKiwi the gold medal
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21:20:03	<monochrom>	And then "for each case, output a line for the answer".
21:20:41	<DigitalKiwi>	https://twitter.com/grhmc/status/1573093735868801025
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21:21:40	<jackdk>	Why not do the wrangling in a nix expression?
21:22:07	<DigitalKiwi>	jq > nix
21:22:33	<ski>	ic
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21:23:47	<monochrom>	https://byorgey.wordpress.com/category/competitive-programming/ is byorgey solving a lot of ACM ICPC problems in Haskell. Look for how he does I/O, namely, interact and a simple parser library.
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21:24:53	<monochrom>	the Scanner module
21:24:53	<jackdk>	no
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21:28:14	<byorgey>	(as an aside, ICPC has been independent of ACM since 2017, so now it is just "ICPC", not "ACM ICPC")
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21:35:01	<DigitalKiwi>	nix shell nixpkgs#jq nixpkgs#fzf -c bash -c "nix-instantiate --eval --json -E 'builtins.attrNames (import <nixpkgs> {}).haskellPackages' \| jq '.[]' -r \| fzf"
21:35:32	<DigitalKiwi>	nix shell nixpkgs#jq nixpkgs#fzf nixpkgs#peco -c bash -c "nix-instantiate --eval --json -E 'builtins.attrNames (import <nixpkgs> {}).haskellPackages' \| jq '.[]' -r\|peco"
21:35:47	<DigitalKiwi>	can have peco as a treat
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21:37:18	<darkling>	I've got some spectacularly sketchy pipelines for work using sed...
21:38:18	<geekosaur>	I've done a number of scary things using sed
21:38:20	<darkling>	(Although I once saw a ray-tracer written in sed. Haven't been able to track it down, sadly.)
21:39:01	<geekosaur>	in fact I used to have to do them, as I was working on ancient systems which didn't have /usr mounted during boot
21:39:06	<monochrom>	That is truly the next level heh.
21:39:20	<geekosaur>	sed's got all that stuff for a reason
21:40:29	<darkling>	The first time I got my hands on a Linux system, back in the mid '90s, I knew very little about Unix.
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21:40:43	<darkling>	I couldn't find an interactive text editor, but I did find sed.
21:41:02	<darkling>	So I configured an entire X11 setup using nothing but sed. All learned from the man pages.
21:41:10	<geekosaur>	hardcore
21:41:25	<darkling>	It taught me a lot that I still use. :)
21:41:47	<geekosaur>	https://funarg.nfshost.com/r2/code/sed/ray/ray.html ?
21:42:49	<darkling>	Quite possibly.
21:43:23	<darkling>	Looks denser than I remember, but it was 20+ years ago, so memory may not be all that reliable.
21:49:46	<monochrom>	The lost art of using sed for xmonad config >:)
21:50:23	<monochrom>	Coming this April, "my favourite Haskell IDE is sed"
21:50:23	<darkling>	Some arts deserve to be lost. :)
21:51:13	<darkling>	Everyone at work thinks I'm weird for using emacs and a shell for my development environment.
21:51:53	<darkling>	"Where's this function used?" "grep -r app functionName"...
21:52:43	<darkling>	I'm fairly sure I've failed at least one job interview for admitting that.
21:52:44	<monochrom>	"vscode still can't auto-convert `f (g (x + 1))` to `f $ g $ x + 1` but it can be done in 2 lines of sed"
21:53:20	<smol-hors>	can you write vscode plugins in sed?
21:53:36	<smol-hors>	everything is a plugin in vscode :c
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21:53:57	<jackdk>	darkling: while not as impressive in your efforts, I once wrote an entire nixos config using `ed`. Then I realised that the reason no other editor was working was that `$TERM` wasn't set to something the base system understood.
21:54:08	<monochrom>	sed script > vscode script > vim script
21:54:27	<jackdk>	darkling: I do a lot of `rg 'functionName ::'` too.
21:55:08	<monochrom>	ed is the 2nd most hardcore, yeah :)
21:55:16	<darkling>	Bonus points for TECO?
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21:59:13	<geekosaur>	btdt but at this point I've mostly forgotten it
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22:00:14	<darkling>	TECO's somewhat before my time, sadly\|fortunately
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22:02:40	<geekosaur>	TV and a command prompt when I was blowing off time in the computer center my senior year of HS, when I was spending half-days at CWRU taking accelerated calculus
22:02:49	<geekosaur>	(TV being DEC's visual TECO)
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22:03:32	<darkling>	I started my computing career on a ZX80.
22:03:43	<geekosaur>	the dialup machine I was using from home was too small for emacs, although IIRC I did manage to get Jove running at some point
22:04:50	<darkling>	I first met microEmacs squeezed into a DOS system alongside DBase IV in.. 1992? Kind of got stuck on the UI :)
22:09:01	<sm>	darkling: high five! my first home computer
22:09:47	<geekosaur>	Ohio Scientific SuperBoard II
22:10:15	<geekosaur>	(C1P as a build-it-yourself kit, but dad had someone at work assemble it)
22:10:38	<sm>	that sounds fun, and early
22:11:04	<geekosaur>	late 70s
22:11:05	<sm>	before apple I guess ?
22:11:26	<geekosaur>	I think Apple was around but already overpriced 🙂
22:11:42	<darkling>	Looks about the same time. WP has a Superboard II in a wooden case to match the Apple II.
22:11:48	<geekosaur>	so the not-cool-kids got to play with C1Ps, KIM-1s, etc.
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22:12:30	<monochrom>	Yeah Apple II was probably overpriced. We guys in Hong Kong etc made and sold/bought clones for one tenth the price.
22:12:52	<darkling>	The 8-bit home micro era was weird, spectacular, and regrettably short-lived.
22:13:16	<geekosaur>	I remember the KayPro 1 coming out
22:13:31	<geekosaur>	huge luggable for several thousand dollars
22:14:08	<monochrom>	Then again we went on to do the same to IBM PCs and XTs and ATs too so I guess everything was overpriced.
22:14:08	<geekosaur>	who'd have imagined we'd have more computing power on our smartphones when we grew up?
22:14:48	<darkling>	More computing power than a Cray...
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22:15:27	<EvanR>	this programming textbook from 1980 has a remark to that effect, about the increasing complexity, density, speed of computers
22:15:43	<EvanR>	let me see what the exact wording is
22:15:45	<darkling>	I did a lecture on the history of supercomputing a couple of times. I started with Seymour Cray's first machine, the CDC6600.
22:16:14	<geekosaur>	flip side, crays were never about the computing power as such. similarly IBM mainframes were fairly weak, slow CPUs; it was the I/O channels that made them serious mainframes
22:16:40	<darkling>	I then passed round a board with the best match of spec to that (4x the clock rate, 2x the RAM). €8 each in quantities of 1000...
22:16:45	<EvanR>	"At present, integrated-circuit technology is rapidly developing, and one can only guess where the future will lead."
22:16:53	<geekosaur>	and very low memory, but memory was used for scratchpad: all the real data was on tape
22:16:55	<EvanR>	(Assembly Language for the PDP-11)
22:16:57	<monochrom>	I am most happy that the days of "so which 5 CDs should I bring with me today?" are over because the flash memory on my phone stores the entirety of my music library.
22:17:08	<darkling>	:)
22:17:44	<geekosaur>	and then we moved on from music libraries and use Pandora/Spotify instead 🙂
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22:18:11	<monochrom>	I think PCIe 4.0 or 5.0 or 6.0 or whatever beats Cray or mainframe I/O speeds too.
22:18:14	<darkling>	I've got a script that runs once every three months, to build images for the 6 DVDs that I can fit in my car's audio system...
22:18:14	<EvanR>	moved on from music library to the sane 2 genres on youtube + gratuitous ads
22:18:25	<EvanR>	same*
22:18:51	<geekosaur>	monochrom, simultaneously?
22:19:07	<EvanR>	I miss pirating terabytes of music and not listening to any of it
22:19:15	<geekosaur>	if you have a separate bus for every peripheral, now you're talking mainframe
22:19:16	<darkling>	monochrom: I think the Cray^H^H^H^HIntel node interconnects are still pretty impressive.
22:20:20	<geekosaur>	oh, and each its own CPU so you can just blast data at it and let the IOCP deal
22:20:24	<DigitalKiwi>	EvanR: i have over 20GB of trance music lol
22:20:26	<darkling>	I did some work on them about a decade ago. Very interesting stuff.
22:21:05	<darkling>	The butterfly/dragonfly architectures were pretty spectacular.
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22:22:06	<darkling>	A major step up from the hypertoruses everyone was using before then.
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22:24:09	<DigitalKiwi>	https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/third_party/u-boot/+/firmware-butterfly-2788.B
22:24:22	<DigitalKiwi>	that one?
22:24:31	<DigitalKiwi>	https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/developer-information-for-chrome-os-devices/hp-pavilion-14-chromebook/#introduction
22:25:13	<darkling>	Neither of those. :)
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22:26:00	<darkling>	This sort of thing: https://www.cs.umd.edu/class/fall2019/cmsc714/slides/10-cmsc714-fattree-dragonfly.pdf
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22:28:07	<DigitalKiwi>	this is the cpu it has lol https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/56056/intel-celeron-processor-847-2m-cache-1-10-ghz.html i upgraded it to 16GB of ram and a 500GB SSD
22:29:09	<darkling>	Although the actual implementation looked a bit different. Basically you could guarantee 9 hops to any node in the network, with about 1.5 million CPUs available on the largest configuration.
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22:30:13	<sm>	yow
22:30:14	<darkling>	On a 3-torus of that size, you'd be looking at 170 hops.
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22:32:21	<EvanR>	now that's cray
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22:39:08	<DigitalKiwi>	if i were designing silicon i would simply arrange it in a hypercube
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22:40:12	<darkling>	Pushes up the cost of your routers quote a lot.
22:40:19	<darkling>	log(N) in the CPUs.
22:40:34	<DigitalKiwi>	https://mostlyabsurd.com/files/2022-09-29-174013_914x858_scrot.png
22:40:44	<DigitalKiwi>	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10-cube#/media/File:10-cube.svg
22:40:53	<DigitalKiwi>	they came so close
22:41:35	<darkling>	The CM-1 and CM-2 got up to 2^16 nodes, but that's small change these days.
22:42:02	<darkling>	Big deal in 1987, though.
22:42:50	<DigitalKiwi>	i'm sick of them giving us silicon chips/wafers! i want silicon lasagna/baklava
22:43:01	<DigitalKiwi>	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baklava#/media/File:Baklava_-_Turkish_special,_80-ply.JPEG
22:43:02	<darkling>	Hehe.
22:43:35	<darkling>	So if you keep folding the baklava, does it eventually get really really sharp?
22:44:19	<DigitalKiwi>	it's impossible to have more than 9 layers of baklava due to the laws of physics
22:44:40	<darkling>	Did you mean 2^9 layers?
22:44:59	<hpc>	i keep my 9-layer baklava next to my spherical souffles
22:45:00	<DigitalKiwi>	i think i mean it's impossible to fold it more than 9 times heh
22:45:13	<EvanR>	nuclear baklava is one region of neutron star interior
22:45:21	darkling	turns on his baklava lamp.
22:45:26	<DigitalKiwi>	s/9/7/
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22:46:26	<DigitalKiwi>	https://www.sciencefocus.com/science/whats-the-maximum-number-of-times-that-you-can-fold-a-piece-of-paper/
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22:47:45	<jackdk>	The real reason that baklava admits a finite number of foldings is that they keep getting eaten.
22:48:56	<monochrom>	:)
22:52:23	<DigitalKiwi>	if it doesn't come from the nuclear baklava region of the neutron star it's just sparkling biscuit
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22:55:01	<DigitalKiwi>	tired: silicon chips, wired: silicon pringles chips
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23:15:05	<hpc>	heh, print circuits on ruffled silicon for air flow
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23:44:21	<kenaryn>	Hello! Please which one is the superclass of the other between `Ord` and `Eq`?
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23:46:21	<Axman6>	Eq is a superclass of Ord - you must be able to test for equality to be able to compare ordering
23:46:25	<Axman6>	@src Ord
23:46:25	<lambdabot>	class (Eq a) => Ord a where
23:46:25	<lambdabot>	compare :: a -> a -> Ordering
23:46:25	<lambdabot>	(<), (<=), (>), (>=) :: a -> a -> Bool
23:46:25	<lambdabot>	max, min :: a -> a -> a
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