Logs on 2022-10-02 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:48:16 | <sm> | maralorn: ha.. bad luck |
| 00:48:28 | <sm> | very easy to do |
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| 01:26:48 | Furor | is now known as Haematophage |
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| 11:24:20 | <Guest73> | Is something like "... -> Constraint" considered to be a type? |
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| 11:28:38 | <Guest73> | Example: Is (Type -> Type) -> Constraint (e.g. Functor, Monad type class) a type? And a higher kinded one because it takes a (Type -> Type)? |
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| 11:37:33 | <ncf> | it's a kind |
| 11:38:25 | <chreekat> | ... and kinds are types |
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| 11:38:56 | <probie> | kinds are types, but not `Type`s |
| 11:39:39 | <Guest73> | So it's correct to say that the kind (which is a type) of the Functor type class is a higher-kinded type because it takes a (Type -> Type)? |
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| 11:41:06 | <ncf> | i think the higher-kinded type would be Functor, because its kind is higher-order |
| 11:41:57 | <chreekat> | I thought GHC had unified everything at some point, but I could be thinking of something else, and I could also be confusing language details with implementation details |
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| 11:48:59 | <jackdk> | The kind of types-that-may-have-values is `Type`, and I think the kind of `Type` is `Type`, which you sometimes see written `Type :: Type` (enabled by the now-default `TypeInType` extension) |
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| 11:54:12 | <ski> | Guest73 : `(Type -> Type) -> Constraint' is a kind, but `Functor' is not a kind. `Functor' is a higher-order type class, yes |
| 11:54:25 | <ski> | ncf : its kind is not higher-order |
| 11:55:18 | <ski> | (just like `(String -> String) -> IO ()' is not higher-order (its kind is `Type'). `interact' (having the former as its type) is higher-order) |
| 11:56:41 | ski | . o O ( "inhabitable/concrete types" ) |
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| 12:00:04 | <ncf> | the terminology is a bit confusing, i guess, because a "higher-order thing" is a thing whose *type* has a certain property |
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| 12:00:47 | <ncf> | IMO it would make more sense to call that property "higher-order" and to call the elements "higher-typed" (just like we have "higher-kinded"), but that's maybe not the convention |
| 12:02:08 | <ski> | `interact' is higher-order because it accepts a function as parameter |
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| 12:02:38 | <ski> | we can describe this as its type being a function type where the argument type is also a function type |
| 12:03:06 | ski | thinks "higher-kinded" is an abomination |
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| 16:03:55 | <monochrom> | Follow McQueen and say "higher-order types" plus it has an exciting acronym HOT >:) |
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| 16:05:12 | <ski> | that one's fine :) |
| 16:06:15 | <geekosaur> | seems to me "higher kinded type" should mean the result of DataKinds promotion |
| 16:07:10 | <EvanR> | if a basic function has order zero, and a higher order function has order 1. Well, it's obviously higher order. What exactly is high about higher kinded .. things xD |
| 16:07:28 | <EvanR> | kindedness? |
| 16:08:08 | <EvanR> | I'm with sky |
| 16:08:11 | <EvanR> | ski |
| 16:08:21 | <geekosaur> | "data Bool = False | True", when promoted via DataKinds, makes 'Bool a higher kinded type, is my thinking |
| 16:08:25 | <ski> | usually you'd say basic functions has order one, and non-functions order zero. `interact' having order two |
| 16:08:36 | <EvanR> | oof, off by 1 |
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| 16:09:28 | <EvanR> | meanwhile the kindedness of Bool and Maybe are both "yes" |
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| 16:10:45 | <EvanR> | datakinds don't seem particularly ordered vs * |
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| 16:14:55 | <ski> | sorry, no idea what "kindedness" here is supposed to mean |
| 16:15:05 | <ski> | (and i second that about "higher") |
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| 16:19:43 | <EvanR> | that it has a kind at all, yes |
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| 16:26:54 | <ski> | @quote OlinShivers |
| 16:26:54 | <lambdabot> | OlinShivers says: Just as C has no string type, Lisp has no list type. |
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| 20:04:51 | <hololeap> | EvanR: you might be interested in this: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/generic-data-1.0.0.0/docs/Generic-Data.html#t:GShow1 |
| 20:05:19 | <EvanR> | probably |
| 20:05:35 | <EvanR> | though I completed the Show1 instance last night, it works great |
| 20:06:08 | <EvanR> | I need to step up my generics fu at some point |
| 20:06:17 | <geekosaur> | that was what I originally suggested, in fact |
| 20:06:30 | <geekosaur> | wel, "go via generics" |
| 20:06:48 | <geekosaur> | "GShow1" follows from that if you know the naming style |
| 20:08:29 | <hololeap> | I think the Generically newtype is a really neat addition, or maybe I just never noticed it before. |
| 20:08:49 | <hololeap> | (or maybe I didn't understand DerivingVia at the time) |
| 20:10:14 | <hololeap> | I'm curious how well generically deriving Applicative and Alternative would work |
| 20:11:15 | <hololeap> | seems a bit odd to try it at all, considering something as simple as a list has (at least) two possible valid Applicative instances |
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| 20:18:08 | <EvanR> | deriving (Semigroup, Monoid) via Generically MyType, what is this alien tech |
| 20:19:22 | <kilolympus> | Hi! The behaviour of "cabal configure" seems to have changed when upgrading cabal from 3.6 to 3.8, but I have found no changelog regarding this -- does anyone know more about it? |
| 20:19:42 | <kilolympus> | It is specifically 1. no longer printing anything to stdout, and 2. no longer generating a plan.json |
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| 20:23:31 | <geekosaur> | the latter is a known issue, `cabal build --dry-run` |
| 20:24:02 | <geekosaur> | beyond that, try asking in #hackage |
| 20:24:13 | <kilolympus> | Ah that's brilliant, the dry-run generated the plan. |
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| 20:24:22 | <kilolympus> | I'll do so, thanks geekosaur ! |
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| 20:32:21 | <hololeap> | yeah deriving Semigroup/Monoid doesn't make sense to me either, unless I'm missing something |
| 20:32:54 | <hololeap> | might try it with Int and see what it does |
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| 20:45:15 | <probie> | hololeap: I assume it'll complain about not having a Monoid instance on Int. I assume to be able to derive monoid, the type needs to have a single constructor and all fields must be monoids |
| 20:45:34 | <hololeap> | yeah that's what I realized |
| 20:46:28 | <hololeap> | still very cool considering sometimes you want to use records instead of newtype A = (X,Y,Z) haha |
| 20:46:57 | <ski> | could conceivably work with multiple constructors of a GADT, in case they've disjoint indices |
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| 20:47:49 | <probie> | Can you derive generic on a GADT with disjoint indices? |
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| 21:08:28 | <EvanR> | hololeap, Int is a Generic? |
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| 21:15:21 | <hololeap> | well, I was trying it on a newtype wrapper around Int |
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| 23:04:20 | <gqplox> | hello |
| 23:04:32 | <geekosaur> | hi |
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| 23:04:59 | <gqplox> | i just started learning haskell, could you give a quick review of my program please? |
| 23:05:14 | <geekosaur> | @where paste |
| 23:05:15 | <lambdabot> | Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com |
| 23:05:34 | <geekosaur> | it's best not to paste code into the channel, it's hard to follow and harder to reference things |
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| 23:06:26 | <gqplox> | ok great thank you |
| 23:06:29 | <gqplox> | here is my paste |
| 23:06:32 | <gqplox> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/ezI0M5WK |
| 23:06:44 | <gqplox> | i started this online course harvard cs50 where they each some c |
| 23:06:48 | <ski> | that is C, not Haskell |
| 23:06:51 | <gqplox> | i tried to convert the c program to haskell |
| 23:06:54 | <gqplox> | the second file is haskell |
| 23:07:03 | <gqplox> | i give for reference what im trying to do in first one |
| 23:07:04 | <ski> | hm, ok |
| 23:07:07 | <gqplox> | (sorry if it's not allowed) |
| 23:07:27 | <jackdk> | gqplox: welcome to #haskell. BTW, it is completely fine to ask your question as soon as you join. |
| 23:07:42 | <ski> | what if there's multiple adjacent spaces, for `count_words' ? |
| 23:07:50 | <gqplox> | great, thank you Jack i will keep this in mind |
| 23:08:17 | <ski> | (although i guess the C `count_words' does the same thing) |
| 23:08:21 | <gqplox> | in the problem statement for it they gave some assumptions so it is kind of allowed |
| 23:08:49 | <gqplox> | (i know it's not a very robust program but i just wanted to check quickly that i have the right kind of idea in haskell so far before) |
| 23:08:53 | <ski> | elem c ['!', '?', '.'] |
| 23:08:56 | <ski> | could be written as |
| 23:09:10 | <ski> | c `elem` "!?." |
| 23:09:38 | <gqplox> | oh cool |
| 23:09:48 | <gqplox> | oh yeah because string is just array of chars so it's the same right? |
| 23:09:53 | <jackdk> | (asking straight-up means that you formulate your question clearly before asking, which can help you solve it. It also means that people who wouldn't answer "yes" to questions like "are you an expert at FOO?" might look at it and be able to help for other reasons.) |
| 23:10:00 | <ski> | is there a `typedef char *string;', in `cs50.h' ? |
| 23:10:29 | <ski> | s/array/list/, but yes |
| 23:10:41 | <ski> | (lists in Haskell are (single-)linked lists) |
| 23:10:42 | <gqplox> | yeah probably something like that, this is the second lecture and they introduce pointers/memory management in lecture 4 so the provided some helper things |
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| 23:10:57 | <gqplox> | oh right yep thanks |
| 23:11:07 | <jackdk> | The common Haskell style uses camelCase instead of snake_case for function and variable names, so that looks a bit odd to me. |
| 23:11:13 | <gqplox> | ok thanks Jack, next time i'll ask right away |
| 23:11:14 | <ski> | yes |
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| 23:11:25 | <gqplox> | Oh right yeah good point, ill change that now |
| 23:11:57 | <probie> | For count_words, you could also use the prelude function `words` (although that will differ in behaviour from your C implementation if there a multiple consecutive spaces |
| 23:12:11 | <probie> | > words "here are some words" |
| 23:12:13 | <lambdabot> | ["here","are","some","words"] |
| 23:12:21 | <ski> | brackets in `calculateColmanLiauIndex' (apart from the ones for `round') are redundant |
| 23:12:39 | <probie> | > length (words "here are some words") |
| 23:12:41 | <lambdabot> | 4 |
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| 23:14:12 | <jackdk> | I'd drop the prefix `calculate_` from `calculate_colman_liau_index`, since it feels like one of those "do nothing" words that turn up in function names. What is a function for, if not to perform calculations? |
| 23:14:22 | <gqplox> | ah nice i've removed the brackets thank you |
| 23:14:31 | <ski> | gqplox : better to use `puts' (or `fputs'), rather than `printf', in `print_reading_level', for the first two calls, since they're not doing formatted printing anyway |
| 23:15:19 | <gqplox> | oh cool i didn't even know about that haha |
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| 23:15:21 | <ski> | `string get_string(string prompt);' is also in `cs50.h', i presume |
| 23:15:31 | <gqplox> | yep |
| 23:15:35 | <gqplox> | how do i reply on irc? |
| 23:15:44 | <ski> | (note : `puts' automatically adds a newline at the end. `fputs' doesn't) |
| 23:15:48 | <ski> | just reply |
| 23:16:12 | <gqplox> | when you and jack messaged i see it highlighted |
| 23:16:20 | <ski> | mention the nickname of the person you want to reply to (or reference), if you want. e.g. beginning the message with the nickname, followed by a comma or a colon, and the meat of the message |
| 23:16:26 | <gqplox> | ok cool |
| 23:16:33 | <ski> | that's because we mentioned your nickname |
| 23:16:49 | <gqplox> | jackdk: yes true thanks |
| 23:16:53 | <gqplox> | ah i see |
| 23:17:12 | <gqplox> | cool thank you very much guys for all the help |
| 23:17:15 | <jackdk> | As more of a software design point, I don't know if I'd ever get the arguments to `calculate_colman_liau_index` in the correct order. If you were up to modules in your course, I'd suggest making a separate module with a function `colmanLiauIndex :: String -> Int` and all the word/letter/sentence counting hidden inside |
| 23:17:17 | <ski> | (most IRC clients will highlight/alert the user, in case the chosen nickname is the first thing in the message. not as many will do it, if it occurs later in the message) |
| 23:18:09 | <DigitalKiwi> | i get notified for kiwi |
| 23:18:09 | <jackdk> | I should also add that everything overall is fairly tidy and split up well, and most of what I'm posting are nitpicks |
| 23:18:21 | <gqplox> | ah yes true, I agree that i should hide the implentation details |
| 23:18:22 | <DigitalKiwi> | because i want to know when people are talking about me and not only to me |
| 23:18:43 | <ski> | (and please don't add sigils (like prefixing with `@') to the nickname when referencing it. that would commonly stop the highlighting, in clients in general. also, `@' already meant something else on IRC .. channel operator) |
| 23:18:44 | <jackdk> | `print_grade` should probably get a rename, as it doesn't actually do any printing. |
| 23:18:48 | <geekosaur> | actually I've found those kind of menntions somewhat annoying |
| 23:18:53 | <gqplox> | im currently reading programming in hsakell by Graham Hutton |
| 23:19:09 | <DigitalKiwi> | ...which means i get notifications sometimes and they're talking about kiwi irc but w/e |
| 23:19:10 | <gqplox> | thank you ski for the advice |
| 23:19:20 | <geekosaur> | sometimes it's nice but often it's like "you pinged me at 3am for that?" |
| 23:19:25 | <gqplox> | so far i am on chapter 6 |
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| 23:19:37 | <gqplox> | i guess modules and other things will come later |
| 23:19:37 | <DigitalKiwi> | 3am is when i'm awake! |
| 23:19:37 | <ski> | Hutton is nice |
| 23:19:50 | <gqplox> | yes i am finding it good so far |
| 23:20:15 | <geekosaur> | 3am is when everyone else in #xmonad is awake, it often seems 🙂 |
| 23:20:50 | <gqplox> | by the way, are you guys using haskell professionally? |
| 23:21:10 | <gqplox> | so far it seems quite cool but i've only heard about it in an academic context |
| 23:21:51 | <ski> | gqplox : you can use `putStr' and `putStrLn' to actually print `String's (to standard output). there's also a `hFlush stdout' you could use, if you want to flush (when using line-buffering), before a newline (if you want to try to replicate `getString') |
| 23:21:59 | <ski> | and `getLine' will read a line for you |
| 23:22:09 | <ski> | @type putStr |
| 23:22:10 | <lambdabot> | String -> IO () |
| 23:22:11 | <ski> | @type putStrLn |
| 23:22:12 | <lambdabot> | String -> IO () |
| 23:22:14 | <ski> | @type getLine |
| 23:22:16 | <lambdabot> | IO String |
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| 23:22:32 | <gqplox> | ah cool nice |
| 23:23:00 | <gqplox> | i tried to search about it but it was talking about monads which i i haven't looked at yet |
| 23:23:07 | <ski> | `main' is declared as having type `IO ()' in Haskell (well, technically you could use any type in place of `()' .. but it's ignored anyway, so ..) |
| 23:23:36 | <geekosaur> | don't worry about them for now, worry about IO. (Monad means much less than you think) |
| 23:23:38 | <gqplox> | it's a bit embarrasing i don't know how to make a proper program yet lol, i just do ghci readability.hs |
| 23:23:51 | <gqplox> | but its quite cool |
| 23:23:57 | <ski> | @wiki Introduction to IO |
| 23:23:57 | <lambdabot> | https://wiki.haskell.org/Introduction_to_IO |
| 23:24:05 | <ski> | you could take a glance at that ^ |
| 23:24:10 | <gqplox> | like i can do :e and write my changes and see how it works |
| 23:24:11 | <geekosaur> | @where IO.xhtml |
| 23:24:12 | <lambdabot> | I know nothing about io.xhtml. |
| 23:24:19 | <geekosaur> | @where iotut |
| 23:24:19 | <lambdabot> | https://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/IO.xhtml |
| 23:24:52 | <ski> | the interactor is nice to test out things, as you're writing them |
| 23:25:18 | <gqplox> | yeah it's really cool |
| 23:26:08 | <gqplox> | anyway guys I have to go now, thank you very much jack and ski for the help. very friendly introduction to irc :) |
| 23:26:16 | <ski> | feel free to come back later |
| 23:26:19 | <gqplox> | and i shall check out those links |
| 23:26:27 | <gqplox> | i will for sure hahah, i have lots more to learn |
| 23:26:28 | <ski> | to ask questions, or just lurk around, watching what people talk about |
| 23:26:47 | <ski> | also, sometimes the channel is a bit silent. just stick around |
| 23:26:48 | <gqplox> | yes seems like there are lots of knowledgeable people around |
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| 23:27:01 | <ski> | (you may have to wait to get a reply) |
| 23:28:25 | <gqplox> | ah right, guess i was lucky to get a quick reply today then :) |
| 23:28:29 | <gqplox> | alright goodbye |
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