Logs on 2022-10-05 (liberachat/#haskell)
| 00:00:26 | <moonsheep> | maybe one day the GHC internals and all this magic sauce will stop being a mystery to me |
| 00:00:32 | <dminuoso> | Heh |
| 00:00:58 | <dminuoso> | I recall a talk by Simon Peyton Jones, where he explained that nobody really knows much about *why* the simplifier works so good. It' |
| 00:01:17 | <dminuoso> | It's mostly just tweaking, observing core, and tweaking some more, turning knobs, until it produces better output than before. |
| 00:01:19 | <dminuoso> | :p |
| 00:01:29 | <moonsheep> | engineering in a nutshell |
| 00:01:35 | <EvanR> | The simplifier. It's evolving |
| 00:01:39 | <dminuoso> | No that's neural network development in a nutshell. |
| 00:01:57 | <moonsheep> | well neural network development is just a very extreme case |
| 00:02:03 | × | mixphix quits (~cigsender@bras-base-otwaon237cw-grc-11-174-91-129-69.dsl.bell.ca) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 00:02:20 | <moonsheep> | and an incredibly cumbersome one too, since every time you slightly tweak a hyperparameter you have to wait 2 hours for the results |
| 00:02:38 | <dminuoso> | I mean yeah, most of the simplifier passes are based on published work and very well understood, but each simplifier pass turns code around, which can undo chances for other things (like RULES or inlining) to fire, or set them up. |
| 00:02:47 | <dminuoso> | And its a very delicate balancing based mostly on trial |
| 00:03:19 | <dminuoso> | So one simplifier might, by itself, do very good things, but maybe ruin inlining opportunities |
| 00:04:05 | <moonsheep> | jesus that sounds like a nightmare |
| 00:06:48 | <dminuoso> | https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/wikis/commentary/compiler/opt-ordering#3-want-full-laziness-before-foldrbuild |
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| 00:07:16 | <fmgornick> | ?src >>= |
| 00:07:16 | <lambdabot> | Source not found. You speak an infinite deal of nothing. |
| 00:07:33 | <fmgornick> | ?src (>>=) |
| 00:07:34 | <lambdabot> | Source not found. My brain just exploded |
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| 00:07:45 | <EvanR> | (>>=) is a class method |
| 00:07:56 | <EvanR> | he's gone already |
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| 00:13:22 | <zero> | ?src Monad |
| 00:13:22 | <lambdabot> | class Applicative m => Monad m where |
| 00:13:22 | <lambdabot> | -- Note: Applicative wasn't a superclass before GHC 7.10 |
| 00:13:22 | <lambdabot> | (>>=) :: m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b |
| 00:13:22 | <lambdabot> | (>>) :: m a -> m b -> m b |
| 00:13:22 | <lambdabot> | return :: a -> m a |
| 00:13:24 | <lambdabot> | fail :: String -> m a |
| 00:13:36 | <zero> | eew fail |
| 00:14:29 | <dminuoso> | monochrom: Okay I think I know why I said "it was removed". join was bound to be included in the AMP, but was abolished due to the fundamental GND interaction. |
| 00:14:48 | <dminuoso> | Maybe I had that in mind. |
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| 00:17:12 | <monochrom> | OK yeah. |
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| 00:17:40 | <monochrom> | join wanted to join but was returned at the last minute. |
| 00:18:13 | <EvanR> | return is still in the Monad class? |
| 00:18:20 | <monochrom> | meanwhile, >>= binds tightly as ever. |
| 00:18:28 | <Axman6> | If that were me, I would've felt pretty bound up inside |
| 00:18:29 | <monochrom> | Yes. |
| 00:19:24 | <EvanR> | is return there for compatibility or is there a performance reason |
| 00:19:49 | <monochrom> | Your heart would feel like flattened |
| 00:20:09 | <jackdk> | If you move return out, you break code. |
| 00:20:11 | <dminuoso> | It was kept for pure intensions. |
| 00:21:07 | <geekosaur> | the problem is that when Applicative was added as a "superclass", a lot of programs backformed their Applicative instances as { pure - return; <*> = ap } |
| 00:21:20 | <dminuoso> | You ruined a streak of puns there, geekosaur. |
| 00:21:34 | <Axman6> | fail |
| 00:21:53 | <geekosaur> | no, fail's gone :þ |
| 00:21:53 | <dminuoso> | Maybe we can fix it? |
| 00:22:42 | <geekosaur> | the Monad of no `return` proposal is still out there somewhere, though |
| 00:23:16 | <geekosaur> | but I think it may have run into a brick wall of "too many code-breaking changes" |
| 00:23:48 | <geekosaur> | there was a near-revolt over that recently |
| 00:23:56 | <geekosaur> | (like, past year or so) |
| 00:25:07 | <dminuoso> | Its bizarre, JavaScript developers get breaking code so often, they just ship broken code into production without testing. |
| 00:25:13 | <dminuoso> | It's the norm for them. |
| 00:25:45 | <monochrom> | It is OK because everyone blocks javascript anyway. |
| 00:26:08 | <monochrom> | Right? "Javascript has no side effects because the code is not run." >:) |
| 00:26:36 | <dminuoso> | By the way, what really surprises me about javascript, is how NPM do not compute a coherent build plan. So you can and frequently have multiple versions of the same library around. |
| 00:26:39 | <dminuoso> | And this rarely causes problems |
| 00:26:47 | <dminuoso> | I've never been able to understand why its not a big problem for them. |
| 00:27:17 | <Axman6> | > ('a':) |
| 00:27:19 | <lambdabot> | <[Char] -> [Char]> |
| 00:27:21 | <Axman6> | > do fix it |
| 00:27:23 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 00:27:23 | <lambdabot> | • Variable not in scope: it :: a -> a |
| 00:27:23 | <lambdabot> | • Perhaps you meant one of these: |
| 00:27:28 | <geekosaur> | because everyone ignores the errors anyway |
| 00:27:31 | <Axman6> | y u no GHCi |
| 00:27:42 | <geekosaur> | (do yourself a favor and never open the JS console in your browser) |
| 00:27:45 | → | hays joins (rootvegeta@fsf/member/hays) |
| 00:27:51 | <geekosaur> | % do fix it |
| 00:27:52 | <yahb2> | <interactive>:262:8: error: ; • Couldn't match expected type ‘a -> a’ with actual type ‘[a0]’ ; • In the first argument of ‘fix’, namely ‘it’ ; In a stmt of a 'do' block: fix it ; ... |
| 00:27:59 | <dminuoso> | I regularly do, and honestly for the most part web sites do function. |
| 00:28:04 | <jackdk> | % fix error |
| 00:28:05 | <yahb2> | "*** Exception: *** Exception: *** Exception: *** Exception: *** Exception: *** Exception: *** Exception: *** Exception: *** Exception: *** Exception: *** Exception: *** Exception: *** Exception: *... |
| 00:28:16 | <moonsheep> | dminuoso: I guess it's not a problem for them because errors pass silently- worse they're gonna get is a bunch of errors in the browser console, which no one ever bothers to check anyway |
| 00:28:43 | <dminuoso> | Or maybe these errors do get caught in testing/staging *shrugs* |
| 00:29:00 | <dminuoso> | Maybe JavaScript developers spend a day of their week fixing incoherent build plan bugs *shrugs* |
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| 00:29:45 | <monochrom> | If errors don't abort program execution, then you can always monkey-patch moar code after the error-raising code to get things done. |
| 00:29:58 | <moonsheep> | if you open the console on *any* webpage and wait a bit you're gonna see a bunch of errors and warings pop up |
| 00:30:15 | <geekosaur> | and most of the time there's like a 1-line difference between those versions anyway |
| 00:30:48 | <moonsheep> | hell even google search seems to do a CORS request to play.google.com (for some reason?) |
| 00:31:08 | <dminuoso> | Or maybe its just uncommon to pass data around-as-they-are? Do JavaScriptees perhaps always destructure library data? |
| 00:31:14 | <monochrom> | The result is consistent with your observation: The web page functions as advertised, but inefficiently. |
| 00:31:35 | <moonsheep> | "The web page functions as advertised" yeah, like 90% of the time |
| 00:31:47 | <moonsheep> | sometimes you'll just click buttons and they'll randomly decide to not work |
| 00:31:55 | <moonsheep> | or to play the fancy click animation and then hang |
| 00:32:08 | <moonsheep> | ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
| 00:33:16 | <moonsheep> | whatever, javascript was one big hack since the very beginning, and at this point in time it's just a huge amorphous mass of kludges, JIT and bizarre weak typing hijinks |
| 00:33:25 | <moonsheep> | I really do pity the v8 developeers |
| 00:34:27 | <geekosaur> | actually I think the very first version wasn't a hack. it was also mostly a lisp dialect. then netscape decided they needed to ride java's coattails |
| 00:34:43 | <EvanR> | computers became too powerful and fast. The web was invented to balance us out |
| 00:35:06 | ← | L29Ah parts (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) () |
| 00:35:08 | <dminuoso> | geekosaur: the first version was a hack |
| 00:35:09 | <geekosaur> | software bloats to overfill the available infrastructure |
| 00:35:26 | <dminuoso> | When you're tasked to write a scripting engine for a browser in 10 days |
| 00:35:28 | <dminuoso> | This is what you get. |
| 00:36:12 | <EvanR> | so the legend goes, and it continues to evolve xD |
| 00:36:28 | <dminuoso> | It's not a legend though. |
| 00:36:30 | <moonsheep> | honestly, I would've much rather they just had put java applets in a sandbox than whatever happened |
| 00:36:35 | <dminuoso> | That is its actual history |
| 00:37:00 | <dminuoso> | Its why you have only float and no integral numbers. It was a simple time saving decision since two numeric types take more time than just one. |
| 00:37:02 | <moonsheep> | at least thought was put into the design of java |
| 00:37:03 | <EvanR> | the javascript guy was asked to write a scripting engine, so he spent the entire weekend in a desert high on peyote and javascript was the result |
| 00:37:16 | <probie> | There's a usable language inside JS, the problem is that other people keep using things outside that when they write JS |
| 00:37:26 | <monochrom> | Maybe it was inspired by Applesoft BASIC? >:) |
| 00:37:56 | <probie> | s/inside JS/inside ES6/ |
| 00:37:58 | <EvanR> | apparently javascript now has a for each construct, I am told |
| 00:38:03 | <dminuoso> | probie: https://i.redd.it/h7nt4keyd7oy.jpg |
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| 00:38:13 | <EvanR> | it only too 30 years |
| 00:38:17 | <monochrom> | hahaha |
| 00:38:18 | <dminuoso> | That picture captures is better than a thousand words. |
| 00:38:50 | <EvanR> | Flanagan JS, Crockford JS |
| 00:38:56 | <moonsheep> | dminuoso: damn I was looking for that picture |
| 00:39:40 | <moonsheep> | has anyone actually read javascript: the good parts? |
| 00:40:04 | <EvanR> | that it has good parts is the implication I got |
| 00:40:17 | <dminuoso> | Honestly even the good parts sit on a rotten core. |
| 00:40:35 | <dminuoso> | The absolutely absurd equality triangles are just one example. |
| 00:40:55 | <probie> | I like that the result of `new Boolean(false)` is a truthy value |
| 00:41:02 | <dminuoso> | It's quite literally PHP-levels of ergonomics when equality is so bad, that instead of fixing equality you get a different operator you should be using instead. |
| 00:41:33 | <moonsheep> | anyway, good night folks |
| 00:41:51 | ← | moonsheep parts (~user@user/moonsheep) (ERC 5.4 (IRC client for GNU Emacs 28.2)) |
| 00:42:16 | <probie> | dminuoso: so just don't use it outside of `== null` for when you want it to be true for both `null` and `undefined`. Of course, why is there both `null` and `undefined`... |
| 00:43:31 | <Clinton[m]> | I'm pretty sure this is a function (or at least a relatively simple composition of functions) but I'm not sure what it is:... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/a6a4b14a44af6f5199c262e753f8037e9f67cf83>) |
| 00:44:14 | <Clinton[m]> | Is it some fold over the state monad shrugs |
| 00:44:36 | <monochrom> | I am not sure you don't mean (s -> a -> (s, a)) -> s -> a -> [a] |
| 00:44:53 | <dminuoso> | :t mapAccumL |
| 00:44:54 | <lambdabot> | Traversable t => (a -> b -> (a, c)) -> a -> t b -> (a, t c) |
| 00:45:27 | <dminuoso> | It's a variant of this Clinton[m] |
| 00:45:39 | <Clinton[m]> | dminuoso: Oh that's beautiful perfect thanks! |
| 00:45:47 | <Clinton[m]> | Thought I had saw it somewhere |
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| 05:22:38 | <Infinite> | How do I add a shared library in cabal file to do the equivalent of ghc -ldice.so Main.hs |
| 05:26:41 | <jackdk> | extra-libraries: https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/latest/cabal-package.html#pkg-field-extra-libraries |
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| 05:41:15 | <Infinite> | I'm able to build using ghc-options flag with a hardcoded path to the .so file. It doesn't work with the extra-libraries key |
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| 05:42:23 | <Infinite> | Sorry, it's fixed. Needed to add absolute path. |
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| 06:49:36 | <goig> | Basically. Both `\mu` and `\eta` take in an object and put out an object. However, in their definition they include the exact object. |
| 06:49:37 | <goig> | Thus, if we assume M to be 1 and I to be 0 (illustrative purposes only) |
| 06:49:37 | <goig> | `\mu`(a b) = 1 |
| 06:49:38 | <goig> | `\eta`(c) = 1 |
| 06:49:38 | <goig> | We can only pass 1 1 to \mu, and only 0 to \eta.Thus they make no sense. |
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| 06:50:05 | <goig> | This ofc is the same for everything, not just numbers. \eta just gives you the endofunctor M for the identity endofunctor. \mu just gives you the endofunctor M |
| 06:50:06 | <goig> | (For the monoids in the monoidal category of endofunctors with functor composition as product, aka monads) |
| 06:50:21 | <Axman6> | what is going on... |
| 06:52:23 | <goig> | wat was their name cant recall properly.. you perhaps? dminuoso |
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| 08:27:01 | <mihaiadrian> | hi |
| 08:27:42 | <mihaiadrian> | given the following function: https://pastebin.com/raw/gHc97b0a |
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| 08:28:14 | <mihaiadrian> | if i want to replace computeArea |
| 08:28:15 | <mihaiadrian> | computeArea = (/ 2.0) . fromIntegral . trapezoidalArea |
| 08:28:19 | <mihaiadrian> | i get the following error |
| 08:28:42 | <mihaiadrian> | https://pastebin.com/raw/mqZzscTx |
| 08:29:15 | <Hecate> | your usage of point-free style hides the fact that you're trying to divide a what seems to be a partially-applied function |
| 08:29:20 | <Hecate> | and not a value |
| 08:29:48 | <Hecate> | you want to operate on the Float but haven't applied to the two GridPoints that are required :) |
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| 08:29:53 | <Hecate> | mihaiadrian: does that make sense? |
| 08:30:01 | <mihaiadrian> | hm, yes |
| 08:30:21 | <Hecate> | mihaiadrian: use a very explicit style first, it's always easier to simplify to point-free later |
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| 08:38:33 | <Axman6> | @src (.) |
| 08:38:33 | <lambdabot> | (f . g) x = f (g x) |
| 08:40:46 | <Axman6> | mihaiadrian: try substituting the definition of (.) into your attempt to make computeArea point-free, so (/ 2.0) . fromIntegral . trapezoidalArea => (\x -> (/ 2.0) (fromIntegral x)) . trapezoidalArea etc |
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| 08:41:28 | <Axman6> | (it's a bit easier if you use the definition: f . g = \x -> f (g x) |
| 08:41:30 | <Axman6> | ) |
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| 13:04:19 | AlexZenon_2 | is now known as AlexZenon |
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| 13:13:42 | <ski> | computeArea = (((/ 2.0) . fromIntegral .) .) . trapezoidalArea -- mihaiadrian, the correct pointless |
| 13:15:22 | <chreekat> | pointlessly correct! |
| 13:16:43 | ski | nods |
| 13:17:54 | <chreekat> | :) |
| 13:20:15 | <mihaiadrian> | thanks ski |
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| 13:26:19 | <ski> | it would be possible to reformulate it as |
| 13:27:21 | <ski> | computeArea = ((/ 2.0) . fromIntegral) .:: trapezoidalArea |
| 13:27:24 | <ski> | if you define |
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| 13:27:32 | <ski> | infixr 9 .:: |
| 13:27:51 | <ski> | (.::) :: (c0 -> c1) -> (a -> b -> c0) -> (a -> b -> c1) |
| 13:28:01 | <ski> | (.::) = (.) . (.) . (.) |
| 13:28:29 | <ski> | (f .:: g) x y z = f (g x y z) -- which is the same as this |
| 13:28:41 | <ski> | oh, sorry, the signature should be |
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| 13:28:58 | <ski> | (.:::) :: (d0 -> d1) -> (a -> b -> c -> d0) -> (a -> b -> c -> d1) |
| 13:29:14 | ski | sighs |
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| 14:41:10 | <mihaiadrian> | ski, Axman6, Hecate: thank you all! sorry for responding so late. |
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| 14:41:44 | <Hecate> | nae worries |
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| 14:53:02 | <silky[m]> | <Hecate> "nae worries" <- are you scottish?! |
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| 15:10:35 | <Hecate> | silky[m]: no and you know it :') |
| 15:10:56 | <EvanR> | so if you have a state record where one field is supposed to be a list that you incrementally append to |
| 15:11:44 | <EvanR> | I know two ways: build the list backwards then reverse it, or use "prefix function" and compose them instead of using a list |
| 15:12:29 | <EvanR> | 1. is there another way 2. is there any benefit here of using the function composition approach |
| 15:13:23 | <EvanR> | maybe Data.Sequence? |
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| 15:13:42 | <lortabac> | EvanR: DList |
| 15:13:59 | <EvanR> | that's the same thing as function composition I mentioned |
| 15:14:02 | <lortabac> | yes |
| 15:14:14 | <lortabac> | but it's wrapped in a newtype |
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| 15:14:43 | <lortabac> | Data.Sequence may be useful if you need indexing |
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| 15:15:30 | <lortabac> | otherwise I think DList is the best way to build the list |
| 15:15:52 | <EvanR> | is there any benefit over just using the list |
| 15:16:02 | <EvanR> | for that particular problem |
| 15:16:17 | <lortabac> | benefit of Data.Sequence? |
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| 15:16:32 | <lortabac> | I don't think so (if it's just for incremental building) |
| 15:16:36 | <EvanR> | DList |
| 15:16:54 | <lortabac> | DList compared to what? |
| 15:16:57 | <EvanR> | ok! |
| 15:17:15 | <EvanR> | not addressing my original question lol |
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| 15:18:03 | <lortabac> | sorry maybe I misunderstood the question then |
| 15:20:05 | <EvanR> | there are two main ways to implement the append within the context of this state thing, build the list backwards reverse it at the end, and compose prefixing functions. DList isn't another fundamentally different way yes I know about it. Is there any benefit other than cool factor to not just use a dumb list |
| 15:22:00 | <EvanR> | because a dumb list is less code, it has that going for it |
| 15:22:49 | <lortabac> | probably with a reversed list you depend on compiler optimizations, whereas function composition is always efficient |
| 15:24:20 | <[Leary]> | DList (or other function embeddings like foldr lists) will be the fastest if you only consume the list once. Something that builds a real data structure may be faster if you need to consume the list several times, as you can leverage sharing. Note the `SnocBuilder` data type (internal to Data.List) and related comments. |
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| 15:25:03 | <EvanR> | checking that out |
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| 15:33:57 | <EvanR> | SnocBuilder seems to be like a dumb backwards list but you spread the reversing work out instead of waiting until the end |
| 15:35:21 | <EvanR> | it's doubling down on reversing xD |
| 15:35:22 | <lortabac> | why wouldn't a list built with function composition be shared? |
| 15:36:03 | <lortabac> | I mean, if you do 'let list = DList.toList dlist' isn't 'list' shared? |
| 15:36:57 | <lortabac> | I don't understand how the way the list is built changes anything regarding sharing |
| 15:38:22 | <EvanR> | if you only consume the final list once, no nothing is shared and you might never even have the list in memory really |
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| 15:38:49 | <EvanR> | during construction there's no sharing since there's no list yet |
| 15:39:49 | <[Leary]> | My wording was imprecise; the issue is that you can't benefit from sharing when consuming the function-list at distinct stages of its construction. |
| 15:39:49 | <EvanR> | the comments mention "heavily persistent settings", which I take to mean you want the data materialized and reused as much as possible over time |
| 15:40:32 | <[Leary]> | The list is in state; you might want to modify it, consume it, modify it, consume it again, etc. |
| 15:40:46 | <lortabac> | ok I see what you mean |
| 15:40:48 | <[Leary]> | You'll have to rebuild the list completely to do so. |
| 15:41:35 | <lortabac> | in that case something like Data.Sequence would definitely make sense |
| 15:41:35 | <EvanR> | yeah if you want to do various things other than just append one item to the end, I can see DList being better |
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| 15:41:54 | <EvanR> | or Sequence depending |
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| 15:43:15 | <EvanR> | SnocBuilder appears to have been removed from Data.List in the meantime |
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| 15:45:22 | <[Leary]> | Oh yeah, looks like 4.17 has it in Data.OldList. I was looking as 4.16. |
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| 15:46:22 | <EvanR> | SnocList is interesting on the surface because it goes to some effort to make sure your backwards doesn't get too long |
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| 15:46:33 | <EvanR> | backwards list |
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| 16:55:47 | <dminuoso> | Is there an known efficient construction for a tree, in which each node is indexed say by an Int, such that [Int] represents a path along that tree? Currently Im using a recursive IntMap construction, but that's not particularly efficient to construct, because I have to alterF every IntMap along the way for each inserted node. |
| 16:56:28 | <dminuoso> | A variant Ive been pondering is to wrap each layer in an IORef, such that an insertion is rather just a lookup and then alter of the merge node |
| 16:56:37 | <dminuoso> | But Ive been wondering about some pure functional construction |
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| 16:58:46 | <goig> | dminuoso you there bud? |
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| 16:59:14 | <dminuoso> | goig: Yes. |
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| 17:00:28 | <goig> | dminuoso |
| 17:00:41 | <goig> | Basically. Both \mu and \eta take in an object and put out an object. However, in their definition they include the exact object. Thus, if we assume M to be 1 and I to be 0 (illustrative purposes only) |
| 17:00:41 | <goig> | \mu(a b) = 1 |
| 17:00:42 | <goig> | \eta(c) = 1 |
| 17:00:42 | <goig> | We can only pass 1 1 to \mu, and only 0 to \eta. Thus they make no sense. |
| 17:00:58 | <goig> | This ofc is the same for everything, not just numbers. \eta just gives you the endofunctor M for the identity endofunctor. \mu just gives you the endofunctor M |
| 17:00:59 | <goig> | (For the monoids in the monoidal category of endofunctors with functor composition as product, aka monads) |
| 17:01:29 | <dminuoso> | goig: μ and η are first, for the matter of this discussion, natural transformations. |
| 17:01:43 | <dminuoso> | Do you know what a natural transformation is? |
| 17:02:01 | <ski> | goig : "we assume M to be 1 and I to be 0" -- what do you mean by `1' and `0' here ? |
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| 17:02:40 | <goig> | dminuoso Wait. But wikipedia defines them as morphisms... |
| 17:02:50 | <c_wraith> | dminuoso: If the Int are dense, you can't really do better. |
| 17:02:52 | <dminuoso> | goig: Well yes, they are morphisms in a category. |
| 17:03:02 | <c_wraith> | dminuoso: err. if they aren't dense |
| 17:03:04 | <goig> | Do you know what a natural transformation is? Mapping between functors |
| 17:03:06 | <dminuoso> | Our category is the category of endofunctors, in which objects are endofunctors, and morphisms between endofunctors are natural transformations. |
| 17:03:31 | <dminuoso> | So in that category, every morphism is a natural transformation. |
| 17:04:39 | <goig> | Ooo |
| 17:05:01 | <dminuoso> | There's a bit of inception here of course. |
| 17:05:38 | <goig> | Still, my question hold.. |
| 17:05:51 | <goig> | \infty-Category /s |
| 17:05:56 | <goig> | A natural transformation is still a transformation/morphism |
| 17:06:17 | <EvanR> | category theory is the study of patterns/interfaces which are optimized for talking about its own damn self |
| 17:06:34 | <dminuoso> | Even the study of itself. :) |
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| 17:06:34 | <goig> | If we define the morphism as giving us a defined endofunctor included in is definition |
| 17:06:34 | <goig> | It's the same case as with the numbers |
| 17:06:45 | <dminuoso> | What do you mean "we define the morphism"? |
| 17:06:48 | <dminuoso> | We dont define morphisms. |
| 17:06:51 | <dminuoso> | They simply exist. |
| 17:07:00 | <EvanR> | that's not very constructive |
| 17:07:35 | <goig> | well. What is the wikipedia article saying then? |
| 17:07:48 | <dminuoso> | Can you give me a link to the article, and a pointer where you are looking at? |
| 17:07:50 | <ski> | goig : "\eta just gives you the endofunctor M for the identity endofunctor. \mu just gives you the endofunctor M" makes no sense to me |
| 17:09:07 | <goig> | dminuoso https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoid_(category_theory) |
| 17:10:07 | <ski> | goig : what do you mean by `\eta(c) = 1',`\mu(a b) = 1' ? |
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| 17:11:34 | <sm> | g'day all. A slight mystery.. does nub require first sorting the list to be reliable ? I thought so, but today it seems unnecessary |
| 17:12:00 | <ski> | > nub "aba" |
| 17:12:02 | <lambdabot> | "ab" |
| 17:12:13 | <ski> | it compares every element to every element. it's quadratic |
| 17:12:33 | <ski> | (or, "triangular", if you prefer) |
| 17:12:34 | <dminuoso> | sm: You were probably thinking of `group` and friends |
| 17:12:44 | <dminuoso> | These may behave unexpectedly on unsorted lists. |
| 17:13:05 | <ski> | > group "mississippi" |
| 17:13:06 | <lambdabot> | ["m","i","ss","i","ss","i","pp","i"] |
| 17:13:26 | <dminuoso> | Huh! |
| 17:13:38 | <dminuoso> | I think `group` is just what I need to greatly simplify my IPv6 pretty printing algorith,/ |
| 17:13:45 | <dminuoso> | Thanks for that. |
| 17:14:16 | sm | is puzzled.. nubSort was created for a reason.. now their haddocks are about the same though |
| 17:14:31 | <dminuoso> | sm: Different complexity |
| 17:14:38 | <geekosaur> | because sorted lists are much, much faster and lower memory to nub |
| 17:14:45 | <ski> | @src nub |
| 17:14:45 | <lambdabot> | nub = nubBy (==) |
| 17:14:45 | <lambdabot> | --OR |
| 17:14:46 | <lambdabot> | nub l = go l [] |
| 17:14:46 | <lambdabot> | where go [] _ = [] |
| 17:14:46 | <lambdabot> | go (x:xs) ls |
| 17:14:46 | <sm> | ok |
| 17:14:47 | <lambdabot> | | x `elem` ls = go xs ls |
| 17:14:48 | <dminuoso> | One is O(n^2), the other is O(n*log n) |
| 17:14:49 | <lambdabot> | | otherwise = x : go xs (x:ls) |
| 17:15:02 | <ski> | @src nubBy |
| 17:15:03 | <lambdabot> | nubBy eq [] = [] |
| 17:15:03 | <lambdabot> | nubBy eq (x:xs) = x : nubBy eq (filter (\ y -> not (eq x y)) xs) |
| 17:15:16 | <dminuoso> | And technically you could do ordNub it in O(n) |
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| 17:16:06 | <dminuoso> | Alternatively you can just handroll the thing, and scan characters with a Set remembering which characters you have seen already |
| 17:16:31 | <EvanR> | yeah nub does what it says on the tin |
| 17:16:44 | <EvanR> | ok maybe not, but there are no gotchas like group |
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| 17:17:16 | <EvanR> | I appreciate nub not using a word you probably want to use at some point |
| 17:17:30 | <sm> | thanks, I must have been confused |
| 17:17:30 | <sm> | so if I don't mind it getting sorted, nubSort is always more efficient eh |
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| 17:17:45 | <geekosaur> | not always |
| 17:17:51 | <dminuoso> | It also sorts first |
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| 17:17:57 | <dminuoso> | That may not be desirable |
| 17:18:09 | <geekosaur> | we use nub in xmonad because if the list in question has more than 3 items in it, you;re making much worse mistakes than using nub 🙂 |
| 17:18:12 | <sm> | nub also sorts ? |
| 17:18:15 | <dminuoso> | But honestly, you can also just nub via a Set *directly* then |
| 17:18:17 | <geekosaur> | and nubOrd would cost more to use |
| 17:18:22 | <dminuoso> | Which is likely faster than nubOrd |
| 17:18:27 | <geekosaur> | nubOrd does |
| 17:18:41 | <geekosaur> | nub doesn;t and that;s why it's O(n*2) |
| 17:18:42 | <dminuoso> | that is `Data.Set.toList . Data.Set.fromList` is very available |
| 17:18:50 | <dminuoso> | If you dont care about being ordered along the way |
| 17:18:54 | <geekosaur> | er n*n |
| 17:19:11 | <geekosaur> | er something, I'm tired and not straight thinking |
| 17:20:34 | <geekosaur> | n^2, bleh |
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| 17:20:58 | <sm> | I think nubSort is always more efficient than nub because O(n log n) < O(n^2) ? |
| 17:21:14 | <dminuoso> | sm: again not necessarily |
| 17:21:21 | <sm> | how so ? |
| 17:21:41 | <dminuoso> | You have different complexities. worst case, best case, average case |
| 17:21:47 | <sm> | oh because O is just a rough order-of ? |
| 17:21:49 | <dminuoso> | On haddock you generally only see worst case |
| 17:21:59 | <geekosaur> | yes, and ignores constant factors |
| 17:22:00 | <dminuoso> | And also, complexity does not directly tell you whether its faster |
| 17:22:02 | <dminuoso> | just how they scale |
| 17:22:10 | <dminuoso> | https://gist.github.com/dminuoso/672f3e167ddce78be6945977ce9239ba |
| 17:22:11 | <geekosaur> | the constant factor for nubOrd is larger than for nub |
| 17:22:23 | <sm> | good, that helps.. thanks all |
| 17:22:24 | <geekosaur> | hence my n>3 comment earlier |
| 17:22:32 | <dminuoso> | sm: ^- I reckon this will generally perform best for unsorted, and for sorted I would expect roundtripping through Set to be fastest. |
| 17:23:05 | <dminuoso> | On average data |
| 17:23:35 | <dminuoso> | For nubSort you'd have to analyze the particular choice of a sorting algorithm |
| 17:24:05 | <dminuoso> | Ah heh |
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| 17:24:11 | <dminuoso> | ordNub and ordNubOn are exactly that implementation |
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| 17:24:36 | <dminuoso> | And nubSort (both from GHC.Utils.Misc) is roundtripping via Set. |
| 17:25:17 | <dminuoso> | sm: regarding sorting, it may not be well known that you can actually sort in linear time. |
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| 17:25:52 | <EvanR> | citation needed |
| 17:26:06 | <dminuoso> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/discrimination |
| 17:26:12 | <dminuoso> | https://di.ku.dk/hjemmesider/ansatte/henglein/papers/henglein2011a.pdf |
| 17:26:15 | <EvanR> | (rather necessary prereqs needed) |
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| 17:29:30 | <dminuoso> | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cB8DapKQz-I is also a nice presentation by edward |
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| 17:33:09 | <sm> | not well known by me, impressive! |
| 17:33:23 | <sm> | they'll be sorting in constant time next |
| 17:34:35 | <EvanR> | sorting in constant time is feasible, you just need the necessary prereqs |
| 17:34:42 | <EvanR> | like, already sorted xD |
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| 17:41:25 | <tdammers> | requirements engineering at its finest |
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| 17:51:57 | <goig> | ski "what do you mean by \eta(c) = 1',\mu(a b) = 1' ?" By taking the definition from Wikipedia |
| 17:51:58 | <goig> | \eta : I \rightarrow M. \mu : M \otimes M \rightarrow M |
| 17:54:30 | <dminuoso> | Okay, GHC is only able to produce around 3000 lines of diagnostics per second. This is too slow. |
| 17:55:01 | <dminuoso> | Is there a way to make GHC stop on the first diagnostic for a given module? |
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| 17:59:48 | <goig> | dminuoso Diagnostics? |
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| 18:11:14 | <ski> | @tell goig but if `M' is a monad (which is an endofunctor, with some more stuff), then what does it mean to say `1' is an element of `M' ? and in this case, your `M \otimes M' is not a cartesian product, but a composition, so what sense could `\mu(a b)' possibly make ? |
| 18:11:14 | <lambdabot> | Consider it noted. |
| 18:11:53 | <zns> | is learn you a haskell still the top recommended entry point to haskell coming from a C background? |
| 18:12:33 | <ski> | probably not .. or at least not on its own |
| 18:13:08 | <ski> | (it has no exercises. and people have described it as a "four-hour long trailer", saying it doesn't go in-depth enough) |
| 18:13:20 | <ski> | @where CIS194 |
| 18:13:21 | <lambdabot> | https://www.seas.upenn.edu/~cis194/spring13/lectures.html |
| 18:13:24 | <ski> | has exercises |
| 18:13:27 | <zns> | ah ok, good to know - what's a common alternative |
| 18:13:34 | <zns> | ah sweet |
| 18:13:46 | <ski> | a real textbook might be nice |
| 18:13:51 | <[exa]> | wiwinwlh is super useful |
| 18:13:56 | <[exa]> | zns: https://github.com/sdiehl/wiwinwlh |
| 18:14:12 | <ski> | like "Programming in Haskell", by Graham Hutton. or "Haskell: The Craft of Functional Programming", by Simon Thompson |
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| 18:14:40 | <zns> | ski: is the age of CIS194 going to be a problem? |
| 18:14:49 | <ski> | i don't think so |
| 18:15:13 | <ski> | (i think some people have said they prefer that specific year of the course to at least some later years) |
| 18:15:32 | <ski> | RWH has probably aged less well |
| 18:15:41 | <ski> | @where wikibook |
| 18:15:42 | <lambdabot> | http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell |
| 18:15:47 | <ski> | @where HTaC |
| 18:15:47 | <lambdabot> | "Haskell Tutorial and Cookbook" by Mark Watson in 2017-09-04 at <https://leanpub.com/haskell-cookbook> |
| 18:15:51 | <ski> | might also be useful |
| 18:16:00 | <EvanR> | @where gentle |
| 18:16:01 | <lambdabot> | http://www.haskell.org/tutorial/ |
| 18:16:11 | <EvanR> | can't beat that URL |
| 18:16:31 | <ski> | the "Gentle" one assumes you already know some principles of functional programming, say coming from Scheme or one of the MLs |
| 18:16:44 | <EvanR> | though you could beat that style sheet |
| 18:17:19 | <zns> | yeah this shall be my first real intro to FP stuff, i'm mostly in the realm of embedded c / asm |
| 18:17:27 | <ski> | zns : it also helps to ask e.g. in here, when you've got questions, or want advice or go stuck on something |
| 18:17:49 | <ski> | nice :) |
| 18:17:56 | <zns> | yeah already I've noticed how more active and helpful #haskell is than some channels for other languages lol |
| 18:18:41 | <dminuoso> | zns: Note, that a few CIS194 2016 code bits dont work anymore because the underlying library has been updated. Its nothing minor, this place should be able to help you out. |
| 18:18:48 | <dminuoso> | *it nothing major! |
| 18:19:09 | <dminuoso> | Probably should poke Joachim to get some updates in |
| 18:19:22 | <dminuoso> | Maybe when I meet him at Haskell eXchange |
| 18:19:24 | <ski> | (there's also a #haskell-beginners channel. but beginners questions are also welcome in here. the main difference between the channels is that in here it's sometimes more noisy (and so you might then prefer the other one, to have a more focused conversation), while the other one doesn't have as many people, so you're commonly more likely to get someone responding sooner, in here) |
| 18:19:34 | <zns> | this wiwinwlh looks like a pretty nice resource, seems like I'll need to make html it myself though |
| 18:19:53 | <zns> | ah good to know ski, ill make sure to add that to my alias |
| 18:20:31 | <[exa]> | zns: oh noes the site is down |
| 18:20:42 | <[exa]> | zns: you might archive.org it |
| 18:21:37 | <[exa]> | actually lemme build that |
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| 18:21:55 | <zns> | yeah i was just going to make it myself since they got the makefile all setup |
| 18:24:09 | <ski> | zns : oh .. you should expect to have to unlearn and relearn quite a bit. learning a different programming paradigm is a bit like learning to program from scratch, all over again |
| 18:24:43 | <ski> | obviously things do carry over. but it's better to come at it from a mindset not expecting it to be like learning yet another imperative language |
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| 18:28:26 | <[exa]> | btw is sdiehl taking care of the repo anymore or did it evolve towards another maintainer? |
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| 18:44:56 | <dminuoso> | Realistically, how portable will using "/" as a path separator be? |
| 18:45:25 | <dminuoso> | It seems like Linux, *BSD, macOS should be fine. So what about WindowS? |
| 18:47:41 | <geekosaur> | windows appears to still support it in function calls. not at the command line though |
| 18:47:57 | <geekosaur> | and I don't know what guarantees there are on it continuing to work |
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| 18:51:17 | <EvanR> | how many battle ships would halt and catch fire, or missiles explode early if suddenly a windows update came in which invalidated / in paths |
| 18:51:24 | <sm> | I would expect it to always work when using the directory/filepath libs ? |
| 18:51:39 | <dminuoso> | Yes, and I dont want to use them. |
| 18:51:57 | <dminuoso> | Im trying very hard to completely minimize the build-depends footprint here |
| 18:52:17 | <sm> | I see. I thought it did work find at windows command prompts also |
| 18:52:41 | <sm> | fine |
| 18:53:00 | <dminuoso> | What if they run via services.msc? |
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| 18:53:41 | <geekosaur> | hm. trawling the windows online docs, only \ is documented as a path component separator, but / is still a reserved character according to https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/intl/character-sets-used-in-file-names?source=recommendations |
| 18:53:50 | <zns> | is there a preference between stack & cabal? or are they used for different purposes? |
| 18:54:11 | <zns> | i was going to build wiwinwlh and it seems you can either stack install or cabal install it |
| 18:54:11 | <geekosaur> | they both do pretty much the same thing these days, just in slightly different ways |
| 18:54:24 | <geekosaur> | some of us prefer cabal, others stack |
| 18:54:39 | <geekosaur> | but these days it doesn't really matter a whole lot |
| 18:54:50 | <zns> | hm, interesting..and confusing haha |
| 18:55:02 | <sm> | some things are a little easier with stack. Some projects will be easier to get building with one or the other |
| 18:55:16 | <dminuoso> | Im going to just take a chance here, its only a list of hard-wired paths executed at TH time, relative to the build directory. |
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| 18:55:33 | <zns> | I assume they probably worked it out so they don't conflict if you have both installed? |
| 18:55:36 | <dminuoso> | So Ill just blindly assume `BS.readFile foo/bar` will work, given that it should work at the prompt |
| 18:55:49 | <dminuoso> | Hooray, no need for `filepath` :) |
| 18:55:51 | <sm> | zns, yes |
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| 18:57:10 | <zns> | ah I see theres a rustup-adjacent sort of tool ghcup |
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| 18:58:47 | <EvanR> | ghcup rocks |
| 18:59:08 | <EvanR> | screw distro package managers |
| 19:00:22 | <telser_> | I definitely want package managers |
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| 19:01:01 | <sm> | zns: looking at https://github.com/sdiehl/wiwinwlh, personally I would try cabal first as it will use your currently installed default ghc and things might just build. If they don't, the you could stack which will install the old GHC version specified in stack.yaml - filling up your disk a bit but relatively sure to just work |
| 19:01:10 | <telser_> | Does anyone know why hls doesn't have an ubuntu20.04 flavor like ghc does? |
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| 19:06:10 | <ski> | zns : <https://gist.github.com/merijn/8152d561fb8b011f9313c48d876ceb07> might be interesting |
| 19:06:27 | <zns> | just read through that! thanks though ski |
| 19:09:20 | <zns> | thoughts on https://github.com/haskell-beginners-2022/course-plan ? |
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All times are in UTC on 2022-10-05.