Logs on 2022-10-06 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:03:36	<talismanick>	I'd like to get the path to a directory (with makeAbsoluteDir) and traverse the result (splitting on "/") with filterM using `(\x->doesDirExist $ makeAbsoluteDir x </>".git/")`
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00:04:56	<talismanick>	Any clue how I might define a Traversable instance on (Path Abs Dir) (or (Path Abs t) more generally) so I can filterM on each directory?
00:05:46	<talismanick>	or convert it into a list for filterM, that is
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00:11:32	<jackdk>	You want find the containing git repo, by walking up the directory tree until you either see a .git dir or reach `/`?
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00:12:50	<talismanick>	jackdk: instead of recursing, I figured I could convert /path/to/folder into [/path,/path/to,/path/to/folder] and filter by whether each has a .git
00:13:02	<talismanick>	so I find the outermost containing repo
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00:14:12	<jackdk>	Yeah when I did this I just wrote the recursion directly. You can repeatedly apply `Path.parent` I guess but you need to make sure you don't generate an infinite list because `Path.parent [absdir\|/\|] == [absdir\|/\|]`
00:14:29	<jackdk>	Like you _could_ use unfold or iterate but I think it's not worth it
00:15:57	<gqplox>	halve ns = (take halfLength ns, drop halfLength ns)
00:16:07	<gqplox>	here my editor is saying: use splitAt
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00:16:18	<gqplox>	why not: splitAt halfLength ns
00:16:24	<gqplox>	decreases laziness
00:16:28	<fresheyeball>	https://www.johndcook.com/blog/2022/10/02/flags-unicode/
00:16:33	<fresheyeball>	I want this to work in Haskell
00:16:40	<fresheyeball>	I have the alpha-2 for a country
00:16:55	<gqplox>	why is that better?
00:17:01	<fresheyeball>	For example Afghanistan = "AF"
00:17:15	<fresheyeball>	And I want to get the unicode of the country flag
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00:33:48	<talismanick>	jackdk: Is there perhaps an `iterateQueue` so I can write `takeWhile ([absdir\|/\|]/=) $ iterateQueue parent myAbsPath`?
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00:34:15	<fresheyeball>	I don't see why it's not working
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00:35:04	<talismanick>	well, I can only get the parent wrapped in a monad because IO, but you see what I mean
00:35:52	<jackdk>	huh? `Path.parent` is a pure function
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00:36:12	<jackdk>	oh no, we've lost everything!
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00:37:05	<geekosaur>	fresheyeball, what is your code?
00:37:07	<talismanick>	or, not Path.parent, but UnliftIO.Path.Directory.makeAbsoluteDir
00:37:08	<geekosaur>	@where paste
00:37:08	<lambdabot>	Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com
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00:37:36	<talismanick>	which returns the absolute path to a directory, wrapped in IO because it could fail (for whatever reason)
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00:39:33	<fresheyeball>	box c = fromIntegral (ord c + 0x1f1e5) :: Word8
00:39:46	<fresheyeball>	Data.Text.Internal.Encoding.Utf8.chr2 (box 'A') (box 'F')
00:39:58	<fresheyeball>	just gives the wrong char
00:41:29	<geekosaur>	I appear to have a font issue but this seems to work for me: ghc -e "let box ch = Data.Char.chr (Data.Char.ord ch + 0x1f1a5) in putStrLn $ box 'F' : box 'R' : []"
00:41:37	<geekosaur>	(or 'U'/'S', etc.
00:41:40	<geekosaur>	)
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00:43:42	<geekosaur>	actually just looks like terminal rendering
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00:45:29	<jackdk>	talismanick: but then use >>= or do or whatever so that your function that generates the list of parents does not have to care about IO or any other monad
00:45:47	<talismanick>	good point
00:48:30	<EvanR>	gqplox, what decreases laziness
00:48:36	<geekosaur>	fresheyeball, you asked it to compress a value which is at least 0x1f1e5 down to a Word8. that doesn't do what you think it does
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00:50:26	<geekosaur>	these are codepoints, not characters in the range 0..255
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00:50:36	<gqplox>	EvanR sorry im a noob but yes
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00:50:58	<EvanR>	splitAt is good
00:51:07	<gqplox>	the haskell-language-server is telling my that, my question is why is decreasing laziness is good?
00:51:16	<EvanR>	oh
00:51:40	<EvanR>	if you don't need laziness, then less laziness means less cost, cpu and memory
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00:51:54	<EvanR>	if you need laziness, then the opposite might be true
00:52:15	<sm>	I don't think need determines which it is :)
00:53:23	<sm>	I probably misread, just sounded funny
00:53:40	<EvanR>	it's supposed to be tautological
00:54:20	<EvanR>	anyway, laziness has a cost. If you don't get anything out of it, you waste your resources
00:54:34	<EvanR>	how your editor knows anything about that I have no idea
00:54:36	<sm>	so... try it both ways and the better-performing one is what you should have wanted all along ?
00:54:42	<geekosaur>	gqplox, it recommends that transform because the list only has to be traversed once with splitAt. if you absolutely need the laziness increase that comes with doing the same work twice, go for it
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00:55:12	<geekosaur>	but laziness is not automatically a win
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00:56:24	<gqplox>	Ok, right I get it thank you
00:56:55	<gqplox>	I'm just messing around, trying to learn haskell. thank you very much
00:57:24	<gqplox>	its quite cool how i got that suggestion though
00:57:41	<gqplox>	i guess the way haskell is you can infer way more from the code and give better suggetsions
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01:00:01	<gqplox>	also i just learnt about foldr and i see now some of my previous things i get a suggestion to write it with foldr instead. i take it that its more idomatic / standard to use foldr if you can right?
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01:00:54	<jackdk>	many simple recursions can be rewritten in terms of folds. If you understand what you're doing it's a nice thing to do. But it's also not usually worth needlessly contorting your code to fit it into a fold
01:01:09	<jackdk>	(aka "it depends", in more than two words :D)
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01:02:07	<gqplox>	got it, thanks jack :)
01:02:28	<EvanR>	folds are great when that's exactly what you're doing
01:02:43	<gqplox>	but "under the hood" is it all the same to the compiler right?
01:03:07	<gqplox>	like with/without foldr will generate the same code or is there a difference?
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01:16:27	<EvanR>	gqplox, until someone can explain all those details, you can learn the necessary flags to produce the intermediate codes and see for yourself
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01:17:33	<EvanR>	e.g. ghc flag -ddump-simpl
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01:30:06	<sm>	woo, big step for a beginner!
01:30:11	sm	should try that
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01:44:01	<gqplox>	cool i shall defo be checking that out
01:44:02	<gqplox>	thx
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04:15:49	<dminuoso>	Emacs users, is there mode that works with mmm-mode to work with alex/happy files?
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05:10:37	<HP-UX>	Hello is it possible to ask about termonad? https://bpa.st/J2TQ building via stack I get this error
05:12:24	<sm>	it requires some C libs to be installed, which stack can't do for you. Maybe their docs tell how to get them ?
05:13:38	<jackdk>	> The pkg-config package 'gobject-introspection-1.0' version ==1.32 \|\| >1.32 is required but it could not be found.
05:13:41	<lambdabot>	<hint>:1:70: error: parse error on input ‘>’
05:14:02	<jackdk>	So you'll need to go to your distro's package manager and install that
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05:17:07	<HP-UX>	search gobject-introspection https://bpa.st/QKUQ some libghc-haskell-gi-dev would this be it?
05:18:49	<sm>	HP-UX: as I hinted, there are good install docs: https://github.com/cdepillabout/termonad#ubuntu--debian
05:19:07	<HP-UX>	sm: they don't cover the 'stack' only install method and I am using stack
05:19:23	<HP-UX>	I git clone the repository and in the repository directory I use stack install
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05:19:33	<sm>	https://github.com/cdepillabout/termonad#compiling-from-source-on-ubuntu--debian
05:19:49	<sm>	you must do this before using stack
05:19:52	<HP-UX>	I see
05:20:12	<HP-UX>	I guess I didn't see this part. What I saw was they said a PR was needed from someone who figured out how to use stack to build it.
05:20:17	<HP-UX>	I'll try
05:20:55	<sm>	it's a common mistake. stack can only install haskell dependencies, not C ones
05:21:14	<HP-UX>	thanks you
05:21:19	<HP-UX>	-s
05:21:19	<sm>	np
05:21:58	<jackdk>	The provisioning of system libraries is not the responsibility of either stack or cabal, so you can use that information to set up for either.
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05:26:29	<chreekat>	hm, I also thought nub only removed duplicates if they were right next to each other
05:26:59	<c_wraith>	that's more like what group does
05:27:10	<c_wraith>	... ok, not really
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05:27:38	<c_wraith>	> concat . map head . group $ [1,0,2,2,4,7,1]
05:27:40	<lambdabot>	error:
05:27:40	<lambdabot>	• No instance for (Num [()]) arising from a use of ‘e_11022471’
05:27:40	<lambdabot>	• In the expression: e_11022471
05:29:06	<chreekat>	I'm not saying I'm right, in fact I'm saying I'm probably wrong and I'm curious why. :D Like did it change at some point, or did I just learn it wrong a long time ago and never got corrected
05:29:09	<c_wraith>	oh, right
05:29:15	<c_wraith>	> map head . group $ [1,0,2,2,4,7,1]
05:29:17	<lambdabot>	[1,0,2,4,7,1]
05:29:25	<c_wraith>	nah, nub's behavior has never changed
05:29:56	<c_wraith>	So you probably mixed it up with something like group
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05:36:01	<jonathanx_>	I'm having some issues with HLS (hie-bios). I like to use both HLS (vscode) and run stack test in a terminal. When running stack test in the terminal, I use the --fast flag (-O0). Now the issue is that hie-bios keeps recompiling, stating "[Optimisation flags changed]". From this I guess that hie-bios have other flags than -O0. To resolve this, I've tried to remove all ghc-options from package.yaml, but it didn't help.
05:36:04	<jonathanx_>	Any ideas?
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05:38:47	<jonathanx_>	Haha, I solved it by adding "ghc-options: - -O0" to package.yaml
05:38:59	<jonathanx_>	Seems like it didn't default to O0 as I thought
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05:42:59	<sm>	nice
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05:44:08	<c_wraith>	oh yeah. I think the default is -O1
05:44:16	<sm>	chreekat: you and I seem to have fallen into a parallel universe
05:45:19	<chreekat>	sm: haha exactly
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05:47:32	<jonathanx_>	my local builds are blazingly fast now, such enjoyment. And I still add all of the optimizations on the prod builds, so it doesn't affect reality. Such happy.
05:47:58	<sm>	it's an Anything Everywhere All At Once scene
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05:51:53	<Clinton[m]>	Is there any function in base that I'm missing that has the following signature (or something similar):... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/df6f815a8140ae6b09980c48f8fddcfaa135e507>)
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05:53:34	<jackdk>	Clinton[m]: pretty common in alternative preludes but I'm not aware of one in base. I wouldn't bother pulling in a prelude for it and instead write something like `maybe (Left a) Right`. Package hoist-error also has some tools for this sort of thing, but they're nicer with an ExceptT IIRC
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06:08:38	<chreekat>	I usually end up using the errors package anyway. I think it calls that "note"
06:08:55	<chreekat>	But yeah I'd first just copy/paste the implementation
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06:20:35	<jackdk>	yeah I've seen it called note in other places, but it always catches me out for some reasons
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07:12:59	dminuoso	prefers just writing such functions on the spot rather than depending on a package for such utilities.
07:13:50	<dminuoso>	Especially since I tend to need different variants of it anyway
07:14:32	<dminuoso>	Sometimes I have `note :: String -> Maybe a -> IO a`, or maybe `liftException :: Exception e => Either e a -> IO a`, or maybe there is some MonadIO/MonadUnliftIO polymorphism going on..
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07:16:18	<dminuoso>	Every package you depend upon will increase supply chain problems (transitive dependency bounds constraining you, poor PvP management in a transitive dependency, increased complexity for audits of transitive dependencies against supply chain hacks, potentially blow up object size)
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07:30:31	<dminuoso>	Question: cast :: forall a b. (Typeable a, Typeable b) => a -> Maybe b
07:30:37	<dminuoso>	Why does `cast` admit two different types here?
07:30:50	<dminuoso>	It seems its not going to `coerce` types with same representation anyway
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07:33:51	<jackdk>	wouldn't `cast :: a -> Maybe a` be useless, even if you had contraints on `a`?
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07:35:09	<dminuoso>	Ah I guess it is useful if `a` is unknown (say some outer quantification) and `b` is monomorphic.
07:35:21	<dminuoso>	As a way to scrutinize some arbitrary Typeable
07:35:52	<dminuoso>	Or well, if `a` is a skolem
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08:15:28	<phma>	I tried to write to the maintainer of a package, and it bounced. How can I get the package marked "maintainer unreachable" or something?
08:15:48	<dminuoso>	https://wiki.haskell.org/Taking_over_a_package
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08:17:52	<phma>	thanks - I'm not trying to take it over, I'll email hackage-admin and see what happens
08:18:10	<dminuoso>	Well, we do not have a process of marking "unmaintained packages" as far as I know.
08:21:23	<sm>	I thought we did have a group / github org for that
08:21:32	<sm>	#hackage might know
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08:24:52	<dminuoso>	But it would be nice if hackage had a marker for that.
08:25:05	<dminuoso>	Would make it easier to avoid depending on a package when, ahead of time, you know it is not maintained.
08:25:18	<dminuoso>	Or maybe incentize people to take packages over, if there's more visibility into whats maintained and what not
08:26:00	<dminuoso>	Personally I tend to check last uploaded date to infer rough maintenance status
08:26:25	<dminuoso>	But its only a rough patch, as sometimes trustees will just bump boundaries, but not work on issues/pull requests
08:26:31	<phma>	Maybe I could take it over, if only to get the Weierstrass curves working right.
08:28:50	<phma>	It's the elliptic-curve library; it looks like a pure Haskell implementation of elliptic curves, which is what I need to test my code for timing attacks.
08:29:05	<jackdk>	code-level maintenance is not really the trustees' role though
08:29:50	<dminuoso>	Sure, Im just saying that trustees work makes inferring whether or not a package is maintained from last update date unreliable
08:30:04	<phma>	but if I took it over, which I'd need the trustees to do, I could modify the code
08:30:09	<dminuoso>	It's not a complaint. :)
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08:30:22	<jackdk>	Fair. Hackage does at least list the last upload date separately from the last update date
08:30:46	<dminuoso>	Err, is there a typo in that sentence?
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09:01:32	<jackdk>	Yeah I should've said "revision" instead of "update"
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10:27:33	<cheater>	> 33 * 8
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12:43:33	<heinz9>	what does λn.λf.λx. f (n f x) mean
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12:44:38	<dminuoso>	heinz9: If you replace λ with \ and . with -> then you have a haskell-equivalent expression
12:45:12	<dminuoso>	Note that \ is in fact an intentional ASCII approximation of λ. :)
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12:47:37	<int-e>	Now if n is a Church numeral...
12:48:28	<dminuoso>	Note though the haskell equivalent expression might not type check.
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12:49:15	<int-e>	:t \n f x -> f (n f x)
12:49:16	<lambdabot>	((t1 -> t2) -> t3 -> t1) -> (t1 -> t2) -> t3 -> t2
12:50:15	<heinz9>	dminuoso, :) what does it though mean in haskell, I am using haskell mostly not
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12:51:57	<int-e>	Not much; it's really a thing you're more likely to see in the untyped lambda calculus.
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12:53:49	<dminuoso>	heinz9: I could give you a teaser, if you like.
12:54:18	<heinz9>	thx
12:54:51	<dminuoso>	In very short terms, in lambda calculus we can encode both data and computation with just using lambda expressions, not too different from simple haskell functions.
12:54:51	<heinz9>	f is function of what is in brackets
12:54:59	<dminuoso>	That is, even numbers or lists would get encoded in functions.
12:55:28	<heinz9>	I would understand f x, that it is a function with parameter x
12:55:31	<heinz9>	but what is n f x
12:55:38	<dminuoso>	it is function application
12:55:59	<heinz9>	is n also a function with parameters f x ?
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12:56:11	<dminuoso>	With redundant parens this would be written as:
12:56:17	<dminuoso>	λn.λf.λx. f (n (f x))
12:56:31	<heinz9>	ah great
12:56:31	<dminuoso>	Just like how haskell function application works
12:56:33	<heinz9>	then yes?
12:56:42	<dminuoso>	oh gosh sorry
12:56:44	<int-e>	no, it's f ((n f) x)
12:56:45	<dminuoso>	I messed up
12:56:47	<dminuoso>	Thanks int-e.
12:56:54	<heinz9>	what is n f
12:56:54	<geekosaur>	I was wondering there
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12:57:35	<geekosaur>	n is a function, f is something applied to it. the result is a function which is further applied to x
12:57:49	<heinz9>	now I understand everything, thx
12:58:03	<dminuoso>	heinz9: lets start with something simpler: `λx. x x` is a lambda expression that has a binder `x`, and when applied to an argument, every occurence of `x` in its body will get replaced with that argument.
12:58:05	<int-e>	Which probably isn't helpful. A Church numeral takes two arguments, a function and an intial value, and applies the function to the value a certain number of times.
12:58:12	<geekosaur>	this is partial application, same as in Haskell
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13:21:59	<dminuoso>	• Illegal equational constraint Network.RADIUS.Internal.Tree.KeyT t ~ Int
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13:22:14	<dminuoso>	Huh okay.
13:22:28	<dminuoso>	It would be nice if GHC told me what was illegal about it.
13:22:56	<dminuoso>	Especially since GHC produced that particular constraint.
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13:25:02	<dminuoso>	Sometimes language extensions are really weird and "unhygenic" this way.
13:25:13	<[exa]>	what's KeyT?
13:25:18	<dminuoso>	It's a type family]
13:25:54	<[exa]>	looks like `t` is too unknown for this to be solved?
13:26:26	<[exa]>	(also check out what kind comes from the tyfam)
13:27:40	<dminuoso>	So here's the thing
13:27:56	<dminuoso>	Im merely using `alterF :: forall t f a. Functor f => IsTree t => ([KeyT t] -> f ()) -> (Maybe a -> f (Maybe a)) -> [KeyT t] -> t a -> f (t a)`
13:28:14	<dminuoso>	But with no type signature to pin `t`
13:28:41	<dminuoso>	And that's enough for GHC to simply complain. Its completely bizarre, because if I add a type signature, everything is good and well. GHC still has to check type families
13:29:20	<dminuoso>	I feel like if I use something that has type families, I shouldnt have to enable an extension for an inferred invisible type signature.
13:29:56	<heinz9>	why does "f (n f x)" mean getting a sucessor
13:30:07	<heinz9>	I think I know what this syntax means
13:30:08	<geekosaur>	but ghc does that all the time. it'll also infer type signaturesfor things you need to enable ScopedTypeVariables to write explicitly
13:30:10	<dminuoso>	heinz9: It doesnt, by itself.
13:30:19	<int-e>	dminuoso: You may have to enable TypeFamilies or GADTs
13:30:23	<heinz9>	dminuoso, explain
13:31:54	<heinz9>	I get it
13:32:00	<heinz9>	I understand now
13:32:18	<dminuoso>	heinz9: If my code says `main = print x -- print the number 10`, that does not make every literal occurence of `print x` in every text file mean "print the number 10".
13:32:21	<int-e>	dminuoso: and apparently that error is gone in 9.4
13:32:44	<int-e>	dminuoso: but before that the code in question looked like this: http://paste.debian.net/1256171/
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13:36:55	<dminuoso>	https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/commit/a599abbad939820c666ced00ae9eb33706a4f360\
13:36:58	<dminuoso>	This it seems
13:37:36	<dminuoso>	At any rate, if its not necessary starting from 9.4 Im happy
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13:39:31	<dminuoso>	heinz9: A haskell equivalent is `f (+) 0` does not necessarily sum a list. It really depends on what `f` is. :-)
13:41:28	<ski>	Church numerals are sortof used by `LogicT'
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13:41:46	<dolio>	LogicT uses Church lists.
13:41:55	<ski>	(successor is success continuation. zero is failure continuation)
13:42:00	<ski>	yes
13:42:29	<ski>	addition is concatenation. multiplication is cartesian product
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14:19:48	<heinz9>	can someone explain: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/HaskellForMaths-0.4.9/docs/Math-Algebras-TensorAlgebra.html#v:liftTA
14:20:06	<heinz9>	how algebra leads to vector space
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16:04:36	<lyxia>	heinz9: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tensor_algebra
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16:07:15	<heinz9>	lyxia, in the type declaration of haskell
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16:09:32	<ski>	(`liftTA' looks like an adjunction ..)
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16:37:25	<zero>	lyxia: are you li-yao?
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16:37:43	<lyxia>	zero: that's me
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16:38:14	<zero>	i was just reading https://blog.poisson.chat/posts/2019-10-27-continuation-submonads.html :)
16:38:45	<EvanR>	church of the submonad
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16:39:39	<zero>	preach
16:41:33	<lyxia>	:)
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16:51:47	<fmgornick>	?src array
16:51:47	<lambdabot>	Source not found.
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16:54:11	<ski>	fmgornick : what're you looking for ?
16:56:16	<fmgornick>	oh i'm tryna figure out how the array function works
16:56:49	<EvanR>	that's in gentle introduction too!
16:56:57	<fmgornick>	does lambdabot only show src for base functions, and nothing from the Data.Array library
16:57:07	<EvanR>	https://www.haskell.org/tutorial/arrays.html
16:57:56	<EvanR>	(lambdabot doesn't have actual source from libraries, just snippets in some file on its server)
16:58:05	<EvanR>	for actual source, look at hackage source links
16:58:06	<fmgornick>	darnnn
16:58:24	<fmgornick>	thanks tho!
16:58:30	<fmgornick>	ok i'm out
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16:59:06	<Topsi>	Given Bitraversable does the following definition satisfy the Traversable laws? traverse = bitraverse pure
16:59:58	<lyxia>	yes
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18:26:59	<EvanR>	I just realized that this actually says (>>=) https://i.imgur.com/XI5x0yK.png
18:27:15	<EvanR>	by doing html inspection xD
18:28:09	<c_wraith>	this is why I hate "coding ligatures"
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18:29:21	<EvanR>	writing systems aren't immune to the ongoing technological singularity xD
18:29:39	<EvanR>	back in the day you had to wait 400 years to see an upgrade to your alphabet
18:29:43	<Rembane>	How is >>= represented in body text in papers?
18:30:00	<Rembane>	EvanR: And you had to know a mould maker!
18:31:56	<geekosaur>	most of the ones I've seen use `>>=`, not fancy ligatures or symbols
18:32:18	<geekosaur>	but some coders really like their special ligatured fonts
18:32:21	<Rembane>	That's very reasonable
18:33:05	<Rembane>	This made me wonder the history behind the bind operator.
18:33:35	<EvanR>	I for one will display a mini haskell logo, probably with animated rainbow outline, for each >>=
18:34:04	<ski>	sometimes an infix (five-pointed) star is used for `=<<'. sometimes a superscript star to the right of the operator
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18:35:42	<ski>	oh, i've also seen ⌜≫=⌝ (and ⌜⧺⌝ for `++')
18:36:37	<EvanR>	squint is that a set of bowling pins stacked up
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18:37:10	<EvanR>	oh it's two right angle brackets
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18:39:42	<ski>	not quite. that'd be ⌜⟫⌝ .. or maybe ⌜»⌝ or ⌜》⌝
18:41:35	<ski>	> map generalCategory "≫⟫»》"
18:41:37	<lambdabot>	[MathSymbol,ClosePunctuation,FinalQuote,ClosePunctuation]
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18:46:11	<EvanR>	I increased my font size
18:46:32	<EvanR>	wow
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20:13:07	<dminuoso>	At what point is a dlist better to use than a list?
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20:13:30	<dminuoso>	In particular I have a small function that will consume a list and I need to keep some elements in reserve order.
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20:14:08	<dminuoso>	Because at some point I need to reserve that list - so I have the choice to either dlistSnoc the list together, or just list cons + reserve at the end.
20:14:19	<dminuoso>	List may range between 2 and 10 elements realistically
20:14:38	<jackdk>	I use them when I need to avoid the performance loss of repeated right-appends, and I do not care about inspecting the built list halfway through
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20:20:40	<dminuoso>	But the functions themselves are not free either
20:21:04	<Hecate>	ooooh I cannot wait for 'List' to be available as a type in GHC 9.6
20:21:18	<Hecate>	I will wait but it will be painful
20:21:32	<dminuoso>	Huh? List? What's that?
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20:22:07	<dminuoso>	Is Haskell, after 30 years, finally getting builtin support for non-singly linked lists?
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20:25:58	<EvanR>	dminuoso, I was basically asking this exact thing yesterday. And I ask this about once a year
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20:26:59	<EvanR>	just cons then reverse at the end, vs something like DList
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20:50:14	<qrpnxz>	ik of at least one PR where dlist gave like quadratic explosion and it was changed instead to just be cons -> reverse (simply linear)
20:50:30	<qrpnxz>	i don't remember the details tho
20:50:33	<qrpnxz>	i'll try to fin dit
20:50:36	<qrpnxz>	*find it
20:50:36	<EvanR>	the dlist package advertises O(1) snoc. And then doesn't advertise the cost of toList so you can actually use the result xD
20:50:53	<qrpnxz>	xD
20:51:01	<EvanR>	you could explain the same benefits of consing onto a normal list, then reversing
20:51:07	<EvanR>	it's O(1) snoc
20:51:25	<dminuoso>	So a list will, outside of deforestation, cost heap allocations
20:51:48	<EvanR>	repeatedly doing accum . f doesn't?
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20:52:19	<dminuoso>	Mmm
20:52:30	<EvanR>	(snocing by composing a function)
20:52:52	<dminuoso>	I guess the heap allocation is a red herring, given that - like you pointed out - you will be toList'ing eventually anyway
20:53:03	<dminuoso>	And if you force the entirety of the list, you will be paying for those allocations regardless
20:53:17	<dminuoso>	And if the list composition causes heap allocations, you will actually increase them
20:53:19	<Hecate>	< dminuoso> Huh? List? What's that? // We're going the Elm road! https://twitter.com/FlavioCorpa/status/1578125123298762754
20:54:09	<geekosaur>	ML here we come
20:54:21	<geekosaur>	next it'll be "list of 'a"
20:54:31	<Hecate>	haha
20:54:42	<Hecate>	I will enjoy this little win
20:55:13	<dminuoso>	Hecate: Oh, you almost had me there.
20:55:14	<Rembane>	I wonder what the juicy bits of the proposal are.
20:55:22	<Hecate>	it's easier to write %s/List/Vector/g instead of a regex to capture the content of []
20:55:23	Rembane	clicks links
20:55:30	<Hecate>	Rembane: it's about syntax punning
20:55:39	<Rembane>	Hecate: As in dad jokes?
20:55:41	<dminuoso>	Anyhow, its a nice change.
20:55:44	<EvanR>	dminuoso, in a simple understand of it, appending to a list backward is one set of allocations, then reversing it is a second (equally sized) set. Assuming you use it all. While the toList will only do the 2nd set. But up to that point you also allocated a chain of thunks equal in number to the list size, if you only snoc 1 at a time
20:56:01	<Hecate>	Rembane: I'll drop a baby on your doorstep if you keep on with the dad jokes
20:56:12	<Hecate>	and then you'll be able to know if a wall is load-bearing
20:56:13	<dminuoso>	EvanR: I think I will have to stg-simulate both and analyze it.
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20:56:32	<dminuoso>	Especially since we have to include any optimizations that can occur into the picture
20:56:36	<Rembane>	Hecate: Yes please!
20:57:02	<dminuoso>	Hecate: You almost had me believe we were getting a kind of usable Vector'ish type into base.
20:57:23	<Rembane>	Hecate: The idea seems to have pun-free code. I'm slightly skeptical. I like dad jokes.
20:58:11	<Rembane>	Hecate: also, I got bitten by Type vs Kind punning in Haskell 2021, that was exciting.
20:58:17	<dminuoso>	I dont like the tuple changes though.
20:58:33	<Hecate>	dminuoso: my fucking god, have you read my Discourse thread about putting Text into base? It was a bloodbath
20:58:39	<qrpnxz>	Hecate: they really renaming the list type? I can't believe it.
20:58:48	<Hecate>	Rembane: would love you to explain a bit more how you got bitten
20:58:58	<dminuoso>	Hecate: Honestly, Haskell is in the same deep mud that erlang/elixir is in.
20:59:05	<qrpnxz>	it seems like the ultimate backwards incompatible change
20:59:05	<Hecate>	qrpnxz: no its' just a new syntax made available, [] is still kept as a special syntax
20:59:10	<qrpnxz>	ah ok
20:59:34	<Hecate>	dminuoso: NO! Erlang managed to get UTF-8 encoded binaries for strings before Haskell, under the pressure of Elixir
20:59:59	<EvanR>	List will be an alternative name for [] ?
21:00:05	<Rembane>	Hecate: In reality it bit my friend so I don't remember the details, but it was something about GHC making up polykinds and then doing it wrong. GADTs were involved. It was solved by turning off some PolyKind extension that was on by default in the new language version.
21:00:07	<EvanR>	that could be handy
21:00:14	<dminuoso>	Hecate: Yes, but printable lists occur everywhere.
21:00:34	<dminuoso>	Hecate: So you have this same interop problem as Haskell has. showT, T.unpack and T.pack are everywhere
21:00:48	<dminuoso>	They are my most used functions by far.
21:01:02	<EvanR>	that's how people did string processing in B! xD
21:01:04	<Hecate>	Rembane: oh yes the PolyKinds extension is on by default, and as you know, GADTs are a Dr. Frankenstein graft on the Hindley-Milner type system
21:01:10	<EvanR>	unpack the string, operate on chars, repack
21:01:32	<Hecate>	dminuoso: yes I'm still salty about the pervasiveness of linked lists in Elixir
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21:01:39	<Hecate>	but that's not my battle to fight anymore
21:01:40	<dminuoso>	But not in Haskell? :>
21:01:43	<dminuoso>	heh
21:01:48	<EvanR>	only haskell can use linked lists
21:01:59	<EvanR>	go to war over it. With elixir. but not C
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21:02:13	<EvanR>	C is too powerful
21:02:14	<dminuoso>	The really surprising thing is, how good GHC optimizations are to make these singly lists bearable.
21:02:31	<dminuoso>	Its at a point where working with large String is actually feasible in most places.
21:02:41	<Hecate>	dminuoso: yeah I'm paid to be a cute Haskell face in the community, my Elixir days have passed now
21:02:58	<dminuoso>	Elixir was my gateway drug to Haskell actually
21:03:23	<Rembane>	Hecate: Absolutely. They are too powerful etc. :)
21:03:28	<dminuoso>	After battling for about two weeks with dialyzer, I began to realize what I really wanted was a type system.
21:04:03	<Rembane>	dialyzer is such a lovely foot gun. Good for docs though.
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21:04:21	<Hecate>	dminuoso: 🤝
21:04:24	<EvanR>	wow people in here know elixir? cool
21:04:27	<qrpnxz>	EvanR: why are you packing and unpacking so much just to do like `Data.Text.map`?
21:04:38	<qrpnxz>	what super complicated non-stream operations are you doing
21:04:44	<qrpnxz>	why can't they be done with Text
21:04:47	<EvanR>	me?
21:04:49	<qrpnxz>	yes
21:04:56	EvanR	scrolls up
21:04:56	<qrpnxz>	or did i misread
21:05:04	<dminuoso>	You probably meant me
21:05:04	<qrpnxz>	dminuoso: i guess sorry
21:05:36	<dminuoso>	qrpnxz: So I make use of show in a lot of errors/diagnostics, but since I rely heavily on Text, its all showT (which is just an INLINEd `T.pack . show`)
21:05:37	<qrpnxz>	or not, it was evan that said about unpacking and repacking
21:05:41	<qrpnxz>	but both of you i guess
21:05:41	<dminuoso>	Other things is working with libraries that just hand you a string
21:05:47	<dminuoso>	Or libraries that expect a string
21:06:08	<dminuoso>	errorBundlePretty :: forall s e . (VisualStream s, TraversableStream s, ShowErrorComponent e) => ParseErrorBundle s e -> String
21:06:09	→	stackdroid18 joins (~stackdroi@user/stackdroid)
21:06:16	<dminuoso>	Here, that's the most recent example from just 5 minutes ago.
21:06:19	<qrpnxz>	lol what
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21:06:48	<EvanR>	is that megaparsec error bundle or
21:06:50	<dminuoso>	Yeah
21:07:12	<dminuoso>	For what its worth, I will be switching to alex/happy soon. But guess what, these things have a lot of String appearing internally!
21:07:17	<dminuoso>	So it will be even more T.pack then.
21:08:06	<EvanR>	maybe there's an optimization which removes the intermediate unpack . pack and lets you operate directly on list of char xD
21:08:14	<Hecate>	EvanR: I was a member of the Elixir community from 2016 to 2018
21:08:26	<Hecate>	although I was dabbling in it since 2015
21:08:26	<dminuoso>	I wouldnt be surprised if some packages had RULES for that, EvanR.
21:08:28	<EvanR>	we'll call it CharList
21:09:05	<qrpnxz>	text does have some stream fusion stuff in it
21:09:24	<dminuoso>	text is really well built
21:09:32	<qrpnxz>	yep
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21:11:46	<Hecate>	https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~nk480/implicit-polarized-f.pdf
21:11:49	<Hecate>	GAWD DAMN
21:12:08	<dminuoso>	The T.pack mechanism is incredibly efficient for a lot of constructions.
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21:12:29	<EvanR>	I'm imagining a string process library using text made mostly of Char operations, and slowed down by sometimes having to pack everything into a Text, which is immediate unpacked for reasons xD
21:12:35	<dminuoso>	It has a nice streaming mechanism, but is built such that for small buffers there's no streaming going on and almost no overhead.
21:13:08	<EvanR>	(realistically, if you are printing out a Text directly, the whole story goes inside out and is better)
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21:13:41	<dminuoso>	EvanR: the only bad part about Text was the internal encoding, which you would almost assuredly pay twice for over its lifetime.
21:13:48	<dminuoso>	but luckily this has finally been fixed in text-2.0
21:13:55	<EvanR>	I was wondering about that
21:14:03	<EvanR>	utf16 is pretty weird
21:14:14	<Hecate>	we're catching up with our past
21:14:21	<dminuoso>	To be fair, utf16 is nice if you interface with some set of particular libaries
21:14:27	<Hecate>	it's great to see no-bullshit people like Bodigrim do the work
21:14:34	<Hecate>	we do deserve better
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21:16:10	<dminuoso>	With utf8 you much more frequently steal its internal buffer :>
21:16:35	<dminuoso>	Its actually one particular annoyance I have with this network encoding protocol right now
21:17:09	<dminuoso>	A user may specify a attribute - which is a sum type of things like Word8, ByteString and Text, but I need to know its encoded attribute length ahead of time.
21:17:27	<dminuoso>	In order to validate it (since I have to know whether its utf8 encoded length will fit onto the wire)
21:17:55	<EvanR>	if you need to know something from the future to do something now, we have that
21:18:16	<EvanR>	bill and ted monad
21:18:25	<dminuoso>	EvanR: No its called TardisT
21:18:32	<dminuoso>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/tardis-0.4.4.0/docs/Control-Monad-Tardis.html#t:TardisT
21:18:39	<EvanR>	I know, I just saw bill and ted first
21:18:45	<dminuoso>	heh
21:18:48	<EvanR>	yes I know dr who is much older
21:19:50	<dminuoso>	Bill and Ted has to be the only enjoyable display of acting by Keanu Reeves.
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21:21:26	<qrpnxz>	i just thought about how transforming a list to a stream fusion type doesn't use foldr, so it can't be part of foldr/build fusion. It might be interesting to have TWO levels of stream fusion, where you have like: layer 1) your library operations; layer 2) stream fusion; layer 3) if the streams are pure and you are consuming a list, use foldr/build fusion instead. But that's kind of insane, i'm
21:21:28	<qrpnxz>	surprised to not have seen streamList/build fusion rules before actually. I'm gonna investigate that.
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22:42:24	<qrpnxz>	hmmm, it's difficult to find a way to take advantage of build
22:44:05	<geekosaur>	it is? I thought pretty much any list "pipeline" that ended with a fold did so
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22:44:49	<dminuoso>	It's as simple as `foldr (+) 0` shrugs
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23:01:59	<Guest86>	The IntMap docs say the runtime of lookup or insert is min(n,W), n = number of entries in the map, W = number of bits in an Int (32 or 64).
23:01:59	<Guest86>	Because it's min(n,32) and 32 is a constant lookup/insert is always constant time, not log n in an Intmap?
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23:03:22	<Guest86>	So there would never be a reason to use a hasmap if my keys are Ints?
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23:07:29	<mixphix>	you're probably better off using an IntMap if that's the case, its algorithms work by (ab)using the compile-time guarantee that the keys are encoded in a certain way
23:07:51	<mixphix>	for better performance
23:08:17	<dminuoso>	Which "certain way encoding" is that?
23:08:37	<mixphix>	the fact that they're Ints allow you to bit-twiddle safely
23:09:03	<dminuoso>	Mmm, abuse is not the term that comes to mind here.
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23:10:02	<mixphix>	"abuse" is a strong word, perhaps i should have said "exploiting"
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23:10:32	<dminuoso>	"highly efficient implementation" sounds more positive. :)
23:10:36	<mixphix>	:)
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23:11:39	<dminuoso>	I use a recursive IntMap to have a kind of [Int] indexed tree, its really fun.
23:11:55	<dminuoso>	Performs incredibly well for lookup
23:12:01	<dminuoso>	Not quite so much for deep insertions
23:13:36	<mixphix>	interesting that you mention that, i recently wrote a small library for list-indexed maps, though recursion is an area i haven't tackled in it
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23:14:39	<mixphix>	<https://github.com/mixphix/deep-map>
23:14:41	<dminuoso>	data IntTree a = INode a (IM.IntMap (IntTree a))
23:15:44	<dminuoso>	Luckily I dont care about deep updates much, since my tree is very flat and construction happens once, and I dont mind a few milliseconds extra.
23:15:58	<dminuoso>	It's a long running server. :)
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23:18:05	<mixphix>	i wrote the above to help with aggregation statistics, and allowing for different types of keys in the same structure
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23:20:51	<dminuoso>	It's neat
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23:25:09	<Guest86>	dminuoso: Since maxBound :: Int is huge every node of your tree can have billions of children? Or am I misunderstanding your data type?
23:25:28	<EvanR>	"complexity" = min(n,W) where W is 32 or 64, so this thing is less efficient on a 64bit computer!
23:25:54	<EvanR>	switching to 16 bit for 4x boost
23:26:44	<Guest86>	EvanR: Do these constants really make a difference?
23:27:08	<EvanR>	we do have benchmark games involving various languages and haskell trying to compete with IntMap
23:27:22	<EvanR>	afair it's pretty good
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23:29:25	<EvanR>	at least the constant time complexity can be used for bragging when clojure shows up with their fancy map type
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23:32:07	<Guest86>	Is this real constant time lookup? The IntMap docs don't mention "amortized".
23:33:15	<Guest86>	Either way seems like a very impressive data structure.
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23:43:38	<dminuoso>	Guest86: No its not constant.
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23:47:10	<dminuoso>	But yeah, Okaski strikes again.
23:47:16	<dminuoso>	*Okasaki
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23:55:27	<probie>	EvanR: Going 16-bit won't help much. The Haskell report wants a minimum of 30 bits for an Int https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/haskell2010/haskellch6.html#dx13-135001
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23:57:19	<hpc>	just make your ints -1 bits wide

All times are in UTC on 2022-10-06.