Logs on 2022-10-07 (liberachat/#haskell)
| 00:00:26 | <dminuoso> | probie: So? GHC already violates the Haskell report in a few places for convenience. |
| 00:00:34 | <dminuoso> | I second hpc's suggestion. |
| 00:01:02 | <dminuoso> | With negative bits, you get faster-than-light access, which means you can access values not-yet-inserted into the map. |
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| 00:02:08 | <Clinton[m]> | Using `OverloadedRecordDot`, is there a way I can only import a field say `x` as only a field, so `a.x` works but `x a` fails to compile? |
| 00:02:09 | <Clinton[m]> | I'd like to be able to say `x = a.x` without warnings about name shadowing. |
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| 00:03:43 | <hpc> | dminuoso: and -1 is larger than 30 because you can't have negatively sized ints, so it's perfectly standards compliant! |
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| 00:08:09 | <geekosaur> | Clinton[m], perhaps you want NoFieldSelectors? |
| 00:08:51 | <geekosaur> | otherwise, not that I'm aware of (but in `x a` `x` is a function, so perhaps `hiding (x)` would work) |
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| 00:17:06 | <qrpnxz> | geekosaur: the stream fusion type works as a state machine. In order to convert a `build` construction which is a function of the form `forall b. (a -> b -> b) -> b -> b` into a state and stepper function pair, i don't see a natural/beneficial way to do that that is not just building an actual list and consuming it. However, this is not totally terrible or game over, since the constructor |
| 00:17:09 | <qrpnxz> | specialization and inlining optimizations that stream fusion relies on are still very much applicable in this case. |
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| 00:18:48 | <Clinton[m]> | geekosaur: ah, I found that just `import qualified M ()` instead of `import M(x)` does the trick. `import qualified M ()` imports the typeclass instance that gives me the record selector syntax with `x` without bringing `x` as a function into scope. |
| 00:19:05 | <qrpnxz> | (so i don't see a pithy rewrite rules for (streamList (build g)) but regular stream fusion optimizations still apply) |
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| 00:31:03 | <dminuoso> | hpc: But its also also smaller than 1, so it's going to be incredibly space efficient since it can't have any elements inside. |
| 00:31:17 | <dminuoso> | Combined with the time-traveling lookup, it's a great boon. |
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| 00:40:43 | <Guest86> | dminuoso: Why is it not constant? O(min(n,W)) looks like O(sizeOfMap) or O(32) = O(1), whatever is smaller. |
| 00:41:41 | <dminuoso> | Guest86: Do you see that n in there? |
| 00:41:48 | <dminuoso> | That is just not constant. |
| 00:42:09 | <dminuoso> | For a while its linear, then it becomes constant |
| 00:42:24 | <dminuoso> | But overall that is not constant |
| 00:42:46 | <EvanR> | in the spirit of dropping details like O does... I'm confused xD |
| 00:43:20 | <geekosaur> | also this is not C; n is 64 on pretty much every platform these days |
| 00:44:00 | <Guest86> | Ok, I read min(n,W) as the math function min{n,W}: take n or W, whatever is the smaller value. And since W is a constant n is only chosen if it's a smaller constant than 64. |
| 00:44:08 | <EvanR> | so basically it's faster if you have less than 64 elements |
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| 00:47:09 | <[Leary]> | Anything that eventually becomes constant really is O(1) though; big-O is the wrong tool for conveying non-asymptotic behaviour. |
| 00:49:45 | <dminuoso> | [Leary]: Mmm you have a fair point. |
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| 00:50:17 | <dminuoso> | geekosaur: You meant *W is 64 on pretty much every platform. |
| 00:50:29 | <dminuoso> | Not that confusing W with n is going to have a difference here. |
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| 01:36:40 | <justsomeguy> | I just ran :info Array in ghci, and the first line is type role Array nominal representational ...what does that mean? |
| 01:39:49 | <justsomeguy> | Oh boy... I just found the haskellwiki page on roles ... I give up already. |
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| 01:40:36 | <[Leary]> | justsomeguy: It just means you have `Coercible b b' => Coercible (Array a b) (Array a b')`. |
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| 01:43:12 | <[Leary]> | The wiki page makes it look more complicated than it is; the Data.Coercible haddocks are straightforward. |
| 01:45:42 | justsomeguy | looks up Coercible on Hoogle. |
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| 01:55:06 | <EvanR> | translating coercibility through Array is giving me flashbacks to subtyping variance annotations |
| 01:55:16 | <EvanR> | probably not related |
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| 07:06:04 | <dminuoso> | While they left, the GHC manual has an fairly good description. |
| 07:06:19 | <dminuoso> | Based on the various questions we get, I feel the GHC manual is not consulted often enough |
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| 07:06:24 | <dminuoso> | It's so well written.. |
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| 07:24:43 | <c_wraith> | people are just used to manuals being useless |
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| 07:30:15 | <sm> | +1! @where ghc-guide , or haskell-links.org/ghc-guide is an easy way to cite it |
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| 07:42:04 | <dminuoso> | @where ghc-guide |
| 07:42:04 | <lambdabot> | https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide |
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| 09:22:24 | <sm> | not so memorable otherwise |
| 09:26:49 | <sm> | @where+ ghc-guide https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/ |
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| 10:11:41 | <freeside> | hi all, I was working through the State Monad example involving Random, and I thought, hey, what if I could just pass my pure inner function an infinite stream of random numbers, so the inner function can stay pure? Well, I tried it, and I ended up ^C'ing an infinite loop. https://github.com/smucclaw/sandbox/blob/default/mengwong/burrito/src/Lib.hs#L77 |
| 10:13:03 | <freeside> | in the example here I am trying to add unique id attributes to a bunch of XHTML. It works when my inner function is in IO. It works when I hand my inner function a finite list of randomly generated IDs. It hangs when I try to construct an infinite list of random IDs. I thought laziness would be my friend here ... ? |
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| 10:15:39 | <lyxia> | laziness and io don't mix |
| 10:15:49 | <lyxia> | repeatM in IO will run forever |
| 10:15:55 | <Franciman> | does laziness mix with parallelism? |
| 10:15:57 | <Franciman> | i don't think |
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| 10:16:08 | <Franciman> | laziness mixes only with single threaded purity |
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| 10:16:45 | <probie> | Most IO functions are not lazy. You can might be able to make this work with unsafeInterleaveIO https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.17.0.0/docs/System-IO-Unsafe.html#v:unsafeInterleaveIO |
| 10:18:28 | <freeside> | gotcha, thank you. |
| 10:18:58 | <probie> | s/can might/might/ |
| 10:19:01 | <byorgey> | the better way is to directly use 'randoms' or 'randomRs' to generate an infinite list of random numbers. |
| 10:19:15 | <byorgey> | instead of trying to execute an infinite list of IO actions. |
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| 10:22:10 | <freeside> | mmm, i will try that, thank you. |
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| 10:30:58 | <lyxia> | freeside: "par" is a pretty neat combinator for evaluating thunks in parallel, so I'd say yes, laziness mixes with parallelism. |
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| 10:31:43 | <lyxia> | Franciman: that was for you ^ |
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| 10:32:37 | <Franciman> | lyxia: how does it deal with this programme? let x = thunk in 1 + x `par` x + 5 ? |
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| 10:33:40 | <Hecate> | hi from MuniHac <3 |
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| 10:41:52 | <lyxia> | Franciman: depending on a race condition, x will be evaluated either by a new thread, by the main thread, or by both. |
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| 10:42:07 | <Franciman> | and the other wil have to wait for the thunk |
| 10:42:09 | <Franciman> | no? |
| 10:42:13 | <lyxia> | Hecate: o/ |
| 10:42:38 | <Franciman> | why both? |
| 10:42:52 | <lyxia> | well that's the race condition I spoke about, both threads might start evaluating because they don't see each other starting |
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| 10:43:21 | <Franciman> | so they can also modify the value at the same time, rendering an invalid result? |
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| 10:43:35 | <Franciman> | or is an invalid result impossible? |
| 10:43:47 | <lyxia> | no because this is supposed to be pure code so the value will be the same either way |
| 10:43:57 | <lyxia> | there are no invalid results |
| 10:44:19 | <Franciman> | ofc, but imagine intermixing complex operations on x, to compute x |
| 10:44:32 | <Franciman> | even if they are pure, if you intermix them without control, they can render the final result invalid |
| 10:45:00 | <lyxia> | and also nobody actually wants to use par on something that's just about to be evaluated on the main thread already |
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| 10:45:55 | <Franciman> | ok but this is a simplified example ... |
| 10:45:57 | <Franciman> | well i understand |
| 10:46:00 | <Franciman> | okaaaaaaaaaaaaaay |
| 10:46:01 | <lyxia> | I'm not sure what you mean "if you intermix them without control" |
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| 10:51:53 | <freeside> | okay, randomRs is doing the right thing, but when i try to show Hex the Ints, I get the same thing over and over again, lolwut. https://github.com/smucclaw/sandbox/blob/default/mengwong/burrito/src/Lib.hs#L83 |
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| 11:01:09 | <lyxia> | why do you have repeat "" |
| 11:01:13 | <[Leary]> | > (+) <$> [1..] <*> repeat 1 |
| 11:01:15 | <lambdabot> | [2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2... |
| 11:01:23 | <[Leary]> | > (+ 1) <$> [1..] |
| 11:01:25 | <lambdabot> | [2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29... |
| 11:01:29 | <freeside> | i was trying to get the ShowS to be a Show |
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| 11:02:02 | <lyxia> | I think you meant pure "", which is [""], not repeat "" |
| 11:02:56 | <lyxia> | or do what [Leary] did |
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| 11:04:11 | <freeside> | gotcha, my bad |
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| 11:14:12 | <ski> | > (getZipList . pure . ZipList) "" |
| 11:14:14 | <lambdabot> | [ZipList {getZipList = ""},ZipList {getZipList = ""},ZipList {getZipList = "... |
| 11:14:29 | <ski> | > (getZipList . pure) "" |
| 11:14:31 | <lambdabot> | ["","","","","","","","","","","","","","","","","","","","","","","","","",... |
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| 11:21:10 | <ski> | freeside : you could also use (`showHex` "") <$> infWords |
| 11:21:43 | <ski> | @type (`showHex` "") |
| 11:21:44 | <lambdabot> | (Integral a, Show a) => a -> String |
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| 11:27:23 | <freeside> | neat, thanks. |
| 11:28:48 | <ski> | other alternative ways of saying the same thing : |
| 11:29:02 | <ski> | flip showHex "" <$> infWords |
| 11:29:20 | <ski> | (showHex `flip` "") <$> infWords |
| 11:29:33 | <ski> | (\n -> showHex n "") <$> infWords |
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| 12:10:38 | <ii8> | Is there a way to apply a monadic function to a value wrapped in a maybe, and then have the result be the Maybe value inside the monad? |
| 12:10:50 | <ii8> | See here: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/Q6pNJ99r |
| 12:11:12 | <dolio> | traverse |
| 12:14:08 | <ii8> | dolio: ty ez |
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| 12:26:28 | <byorgey> | https://twitter.com/impurepics/status/1312158622302924801 the answer is always traverse |
| 12:27:05 | <Hecate> | :D |
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| 12:28:09 | <byorgey> | Hecate: how's MuniHac? |
| 12:29:09 | <Hecate> | byorgey: it's lovely, thank you! |
| 12:29:15 | <Hecate> | I've got some people at the Flora table |
| 12:29:26 | <Hecate> | and met some rock stars (^_^) |
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| 12:33:11 | <heinz9> | what does f a mean |
| 12:33:25 | <ski> | the function `f' applied to the argument `a' |
| 12:35:40 | <heinz9> | thx |
| 12:36:04 | <heinz9> | and a->b ist like a function pointer as a type? |
| 12:36:48 | <ski> | it's a function type. the type of functions accepting values of type `a' as input, and producing values of type `b' as output |
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| 12:38:25 | <ski> | in C, if you wanted to pass a function (as argument or result to another function, or if you wanted to store it in a data structure), you'd actually pass a "function pointer". the appropriate type for that in C is `b (*)(a)' (the corresponding non-pointer function type would be `b (a)') |
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| 12:38:57 | <ski> | but there's no need to do "function pointers" in Haskell (unless you're usinng the FFI. then there's `FunPtr') |
| 12:40:44 | <ski> | @type Foreign.Ptr.nullFunPtr |
| 12:40:45 | <lambdabot> | GHC.Ptr.FunPtr a |
| 12:40:47 | <ski> | @type Foreign.Ptr.freeHaskellFunPtr |
| 12:40:49 | <lambdabot> | GHC.Ptr.FunPtr a -> IO () |
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| 12:57:32 | <dminuoso> | Beautiful. I have a memory corruption. :( |
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| 12:59:02 | <dminuoso> | And its not of the crashing kind, these you could debug. Its of the "debug routine keeps pointing at the wrong thing" |
| 12:59:17 | <dminuoso> | This has aliased buffer written all over it. |
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| 13:43:19 | <ii8> | Is there a cooler way to write this: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/PM5lAfc8 |
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| 13:45:45 | <[Leary]> | :t \a -> liftA2 (<>) a . pure |
| 13:45:47 | <lambdabot> | (Applicative f, Semigroup c) => f c -> c -> f c |
| 13:45:50 | <[Leary]> | Perhaps. |
| 13:47:53 | <[Leary]> | :t \a b -> a <&> (<> b) |
| 13:47:55 | <lambdabot> | (Functor f, Semigroup b) => f b -> b -> f b |
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| 13:49:23 | <chreekat> | Semigroup a => Semigroup (Maybe a) |
| 13:50:03 | geekosaur | would note that sometimes "coller" is the wrong way to go. "code you'll understand 6 months down the road" is often better |
| 13:50:11 | <geekosaur> | *cooler |
| 13:51:57 | <chreekat> | ah I see, the default instance for Maybe doesn't propagate the Nothing |
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| 13:53:59 | <dminuoso> | Whats the primitive to unshare bytestring buffers? |
| 13:55:35 | <ii8> | [Leary]: thanks! |
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| 14:49:32 | <EvanR> | dminuoso, copy? |
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| 15:14:33 | <gensyst> | We have "newForeignPtr :: FinalizerPtr a -> Ptr a -> IO (ForeignPtr a)", and "type FinalizerPtr a = FunPtr (Ptr a -> IO ())". But how can I create a foreign pointer when the close function is of type Ptr a -> IO CInt and I want to throw an exception in IO if the returned CInt is not 0? |
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| 15:15:33 | <gensyst> | hmmm. maybe that makes little sense? since it's GC and could be called any time, and so throwing exception sometime down the line is meaningless? |
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| 15:18:14 | <EvanR> | not meaningless, we have async exceptions that can technically do that |
| 15:18:23 | <EvanR> | would it be insane, maybe |
| 15:19:01 | <EvanR> | first question, which thread gets the exception |
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| 15:19:28 | <EvanR> | once you answer this, make that thread responsible for the foreign resource anyway |
| 15:21:03 | <EvanR> | finalizers are probably better used for cleaning up resources at gc time, rather than crashing |
| 15:21:35 | <gensyst> | EvanR, i mean the "expected" result of that C func will be 0, but it could also not be (imo rare cases) |
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| 15:22:00 | <gensyst> | ok I know what to do. I'm better off replacing my thing with a "with" thingy |
| 15:22:12 | <gensyst> | so no foreignptr needed |
| 15:23:37 | <EvanR> | yeah a bracket that acquires the resource, and regardless of how the story ends, cleans up the resource afteward |
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| 15:46:25 | <olle> | Are haskell devs actually coding like this? https://degoes.net/articles/modern-fp |
| 15:47:39 | <geekosaur> | free monads are fairly common, yes |
| 15:47:47 | <geekosaur> | that doesn't mean everyone is using them |
| 15:48:01 | <olle> | Hm |
| 15:49:09 | <oats> | olle, holy christ that guy is ripped |
| 15:49:09 | <olle> | I wanna do it in PHP |
| 15:50:02 | <EvanR> | how about other way around, acme-php backage |
| 15:50:04 | <EvanR> | package |
| 15:50:13 | <olle> | http://olleharstedt.github.io/programming/2022/03/22/one-universal-mock-to-rule-them-all.html |
| 15:50:16 | <olle> | Did try one concept here |
| 15:51:02 | <oats> | olle, I'm also a little annoyed by the opening of that article |
| 15:51:16 | <oats> | you can write poor code in any language, with any paradigm |
| 15:51:32 | <olle> | So far, yes |
| 15:51:33 | <oats> | poor function naming, undescriptive argument names, boolean blindness... |
| 15:51:46 | <olle> | AI will solve it ;) |
| 15:51:50 | <oats> | what |
| 15:52:04 | <olle> | Domain-consiouss AI linters |
| 15:53:01 | <EvanR> | are you really going to take seriously the intro to that blog post when the guy looks like vin diesel |
| 15:53:25 | <olle> | Haha so distracting, those muscles |
| 15:53:48 | <EvanR> | do you take general relativity quantum mechanics tips from Riddick |
| 15:54:47 | <olle> | Those two can't be combined..... |
| 15:58:45 | <EvanR> | yet |
| 15:59:30 | <EvanR> | also that only makes Riddick even less credible |
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| 16:04:01 | <gensyst> | lol "Come on, this is 2015. We can do better than IO!" wtf |
| 16:04:11 | <gensyst> | so what's happening now 7 years later? |
| 16:04:30 | <gensyst> | free moands catching on now? |
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| 16:08:28 | <EvanR> | lazy list IO => monads => free monads => comonad IO? xD |
| 16:08:43 | <olle> | Freer monad? |
| 16:09:09 | <olle> | Dijkstra Monads for All? |
| 16:09:21 | <EvanR> | funny the free monad version of IO is more restrictive than IO |
| 16:09:21 | <olle> | https://arxiv.org/abs/1903.01237 |
| 16:09:45 | <EvanR> | maybe if we use restrictive monads, we become actually more freer |
| 16:10:17 | <olle> | You don't want freedom, you want correctness |
| 16:10:23 | <gensyst> | Free monads sounds scary. Is this something special, or just a design pattern that can be done with "simple Haskell"? |
| 16:10:29 | <EvanR> | correct. freedom is slavery |
| 16:10:59 | <EvanR> | gensyst, it's pretty simple as far as outlandish abstract nonsense can go around here |
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| 16:11:28 | <EvanR> | but packages like freer will help you get the most performance in the process |
| 16:12:01 | <EvanR> | if you are planning to run free monads directly |
| 16:13:10 | <EvanR> | gensyst, just like monads tutorials though... you want to look at free functor first |
| 16:13:29 | <EvanR> | people never think to read functor tutorials xD |
| 16:13:41 | <gensyst> | ok... |
| 16:13:44 | <heinz9> | has someone a very complex use case about a functor, that demonstrates functors usefulness? |
| 16:14:03 | <gensyst> | i'll let this rest for a while |
| 16:14:06 | <gensyst> | no time for this lol |
| 16:14:18 | <EvanR> | functors are all around you |
| 16:14:20 | <sm> | that ripped guy is a good haskell writer |
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| 16:16:28 | <c_wraith> | heinz9: amusingly, you can sort of see Lens as the complex use case for Functor. |
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| 16:23:01 | <heinz9> | c_wraith, what is Lens |
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| 16:24:18 | <olle> | It's similar to an asshole |
| 16:24:21 | <olle> | Nah |
| 16:24:24 | <olle> | Time to go home |
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| 16:25:15 | <EvanR> | that's the worst tutorial analogy yet |
| 16:25:16 | <c_wraith> | lens is a library for data manipulation. The simplest portions are based on types like Functor f => (A -> f B) -> (S -> f T) |
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| 16:26:28 | <pareto-optimal-d> | Is there a better lensey way to write: view (non "") . maximumByOf (backwards worded) (compare `on` (sum . map (subtract 96 . ord))) $ "" |
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| 16:28:59 | <c_wraith> | pareto-optimal-d: that code worries me anyway. what if your strings have anything other than lowercase letters and whitespace? |
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| 16:30:16 | <pareto-optimal-d> | c_wraith: It's a codewars and it says "only has lowercase letters and whitespace" :D |
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| 16:36:48 | <c_wraith> | I don't see any obvious improvement. Other than naming the comparator, anyway. |
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| 16:37:44 | <pareto-optimal-d> | Yeah. Before `view (non "")` I just had `fromMaybe ""` but wonderd if `view (non "")` would be idiomatic lens for someone refusing to import Data.Maybe :P |
| 16:38:09 | <pareto-optimal-d> | I should name the comparator |
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| 16:47:14 | <heinz9> | are functors in general good for automation? |
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| 16:49:26 | <c_wraith> | That's a sort of odd question. Are numbers in general good for automation? |
| 16:49:28 | <davean> | heinz9: what does that even mean? |
| 16:50:12 | <heinz9> | Idk, just guessing |
| 16:50:26 | <davean> | I'm not even sure what you're guessing |
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| 16:51:37 | <davean> | they make more things "look the same" for a particular sort of thing that is very general, so maybe if you mean the right thing by right thing by "automation" |
| 16:51:57 | <davean> | its kinda nonsensicle but it might be right if you happen to mean the right thing by it |
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| 16:55:19 | <heinz9> | davean, this is helping me |
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| 16:55:57 | <EvanR> | language hasn't caught up with how good functors are for what |
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| 16:57:40 | <EvanR> | however pictures are great |
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| 17:03:40 | <geekosaur> | you could say functors are good at manipulating data in a way that makes many different kinds of manipulations fit a common "schema". and most programs are about manipulating data |
| 17:04:57 | <geekosaur> | as c_wraith pointed out earlier, lens is kinda taking that to the limit and using functors to manipulate a lot of different kinds of data within the same framework |
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| 17:27:06 | <heinz9> | has haskell morphims? |
| 17:27:14 | <heinz9> | morphisms |
| 17:28:46 | <EvanR> | morphism is jargon for the arrows in a category. In so far as Hask is a category... haskell functions (a -> b) are the morphisms |
| 17:29:21 | <EvanR> | (types are the objects) |
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| 17:35:22 | <geekosaur> | that being essentially *why* we represent functions with type -> type |
| 17:43:14 | <monochrom> | In fact mathematicians use "name: type -> type" too because category theory started that notation. |
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| 17:45:42 | <monochrom> | But back to the more general and meaningless question. Approximately, the only thing I can think of that is not good for automation is labour unions. |
| 17:46:04 | <monochrom> | I mean, even capitalism is good for automation, right? >:) |
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| 17:50:07 | <c_wraith> | no, capitalization only helps when you start trying things like autOmation |
| 17:52:11 | <zzz> | there's a reason caps lock is usually frowned upon |
| 17:52:24 | shapr | frows |
| 17:52:28 | <shapr> | ahem FROWNS |
| 17:52:38 | <shapr> | capital my good sir |
| 17:53:23 | <zzz> | it's not an unpopular lifestyle choice to remap capital lock to escape |
| 17:53:36 | <shapr> | I don't think my keyboard has a caps lock key |
| 17:53:47 | <shapr> | but anyway |
| 17:53:56 | <shapr> | I got a partial Haskell job today, so that's nice |
| 17:54:08 | <zzz> | ugh partial |
| 17:54:12 | shapr | shrugs |
| 17:54:14 | <shapr> | better than nothing |
| 17:54:17 | <monochrom> | I thought people who remap capslock remap it to tab or ctrl. |
| 17:54:27 | <zzz> | monochrom: esc for vim |
| 17:54:34 | <shapr> | zzz: Part of the job is porting Python to Haskell, so I'm excited about that. |
| 17:54:42 | <shapr> | it's gonna be funnn |
| 17:54:50 | <zzz> | shapr: i was making a joke about partiality. congrats! |
| 17:54:53 | <monochrom> | Partial haskell jobs are the best haskell jobs because they don't terminate. Right? >:) |
| 17:55:19 | <zzz> | monochrom: ha! |
| 17:55:22 | <davean> | shapr: you should use the 'safe-haskell-job' package instead of the haskell jobs you find in 'base' |
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| 17:55:49 | <EvanR> | honestly, Nothing is a better result than partial(ity) |
| 17:55:59 | <shapr> | zzz: haha, I guess I missed that in my pattern match |
| 17:56:01 | <zzz> | ok guys |
| 17:56:04 | shapr | hugs zzz |
| 17:56:25 | <EvanR> | the python monad |
| 17:58:00 | zzz | thinks about a tail recursive ouroboros pyton |
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| 18:26:56 | <shapr> | hoi tromp, hoe gaat het? |
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| 18:32:00 | <tromp> | hoi, shapr. het gaat prima. vandaag 15 jaar getrouwd:-) |
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| 18:47:38 | <zzz> | saluton! kiel vi fartas? |
| 18:49:45 | <EvanR> | lol |
| 18:49:59 | <EvanR> | mi fartas bone |
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| 18:57:00 | <EvanR> | stupid haskell tricks 104: are you sortBying some stuff using a custom ordering metric, but it's not good enough to make a last minute decision to put something specific dead last |
| 18:57:29 | <EvanR> | wrap the metric in (x, True) or (x, False) lol |
| 18:58:09 | <EvanR> | as a stupid tie breaker |
| 18:58:29 | <EvanR> | or ad hoc infinity |
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| 19:05:55 | <monochrom> | Yes, product orders are the best things since orders. :) |
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| 19:08:38 | <davean> | I don't just take my orders from just any old EvanR though |
| 19:09:00 | <darkling> | Accepth no subtitutes. |
| 19:09:04 | <darkling> | s/h// |
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| 19:17:50 | <ski> | but what's the categorical significance of lexicographic ? |
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| 19:22:50 | <Digit> | hi. using ghci for quick calculations, is there a way to have it not truncate numbers? so it shows e.g. "2.52e12" in full like 2520000000000? |
| 19:23:25 | <EvanR> | be careful if you ask for "full" decimal representation of floats |
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| 19:23:51 | <geekosaur> | there's no control over the Show instance for Float or Double, no |
| 19:24:13 | <geekosaur> | you could use one of the functions in the Numeric module (or Text.Printf) to print it yourself |
| 19:24:23 | <EvanR> | :t showFFloat |
| 19:24:24 | <lambdabot> | RealFloat a => Maybe Int -> a -> ShowS |
| 19:24:36 | <darkling> | We found some data today that was measuring areas of counties in something like square microns... :) |
| 19:25:06 | <EvanR> | you can get more digits using showFFloat or defining your own newtype wrapper over floats |
| 19:25:18 | <darkling> | (Or, rather, down to square µm precision) |
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| 19:26:52 | <EvanR> | but despite floats and doubles taking up only a few hexdigits at most, the decimal digits can stretch out to ridiculous if computed exactly |
| 19:27:05 | <monochrom> | Lexicalgraphic orders may have to do with mconcat over [Ordering]. Some monoidness may be involved. |
| 19:27:08 | <ski> | darkling : .. and lengths of coastlines ? |
| 19:27:38 | <geekosaur> | I was wondering how badly erosion affects those areas |
| 19:27:52 | <darkling> | Yeah, probably. |
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| 19:28:15 | <ski> | monochrom : .. the other week, i was pondering this a little, thinking that indexing a family of orders, not by a set, but by an order, may be helpful here |
| 19:29:21 | <monochrom> | Yeah since we use lexicalgraphic orders on seuqences, firstly the index set has extra structure... |
| 19:29:31 | <darkling> | geekosaur: There are some "interesting" country and (US) state borders that were originally defined as "midline of the river", where the river moved afterwards. |
| 19:29:51 | <ski> | darkling : at least from some POV, lengths of coastlines shouldn't be measured in metres, but rather one should measure their fractal dimension |
| 19:30:18 | <darkling> | heh. I've had a hard job explaining that to my colleagues, let alone to our customers. :) |
| 19:31:04 | <ski> | monochrom : so, i was thinking about the functor category from an order (being a category), to the category of orders |
| 19:31:23 | <EvanR> | the customer says, "why don't you just require a bound on the curvature of the measured boundary" |
| 19:31:44 | <EvanR> | "and the length is mentioned relative to that" |
| 19:31:45 | <ski> | and i guess next step would be to think of the diagonal ("constant") functor to that category, and the left and right adjoints of that functor |
| 19:32:04 | <monochrom> | Call me conceit but I doubt how many customers even know the word "curvature". |
| 19:32:12 | <geekosaur> | darkling, yeh. and I used to live in a county which is partially under a lake |
| 19:32:13 | <darkling> | The customer's more likely to ask "can I spray against septoria here tomorrow?" |
| 19:32:18 | <ski> | "bound on the curvature" meaning ? |
| 19:32:25 | <EvanR> | a max curvature |
| 19:32:56 | <darkling> | ski: You don't accept any line segment approximation with a radius of curvature smaller than some value. |
| 19:32:58 | <ski> | i'm not sure if that's a sensible thing to require, looking at it at many scales |
| 19:33:19 | <ski> | (yea, i got what you mean now, ty) |
| 19:33:21 | <EvanR> | it would mean there's a smallest scale |
| 19:34:13 | <ski> | btw, there's this nice mathematical example of a "horn" or "trumpet", which has infinite surface area, but finite volume |
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| 19:34:21 | <monochrom> | But tautologically if you know why you're measuring coastline lengths or what the answers are going to be used for, then you know a good cutoff of the fractal thing. |
| 19:34:44 | <ski> | so, can you paint all its infinite area, with a finite volume of paint ? |
| 19:34:54 | <darkling> | But septoria triticum? :) |
| 19:34:57 | <monochrom> | Like the same way if I know I'm plotting a Julia set on a 1680x1050 screen then I know when to stop. |
| 19:35:25 | <monochrom> | or at least have some approximate idea when to stop. |
| 19:35:26 | <EvanR> | the airplane you use to fly around the coast and measure it has a min turning radius xD |
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| 19:36:17 | <ski> | if you know the fractal dimension, then you'd have a good approximation to the measured coastline length, given a particular measuring yardstick to measure with |
| 19:37:07 | <EvanR> | oh, is there a relationship between bounded curvature and fractal dimension |
| 19:37:38 | <EvanR> | is the infinite surface area horn painted with a volume of paint a type mismatch? |
| 19:37:52 | <EvanR> | length vs area vs volume |
| 19:38:26 | <ski> | btw, Lars Lohn's LyCon keynote in 2016 at <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSfe5M_zG2s#t=14m15s> talks about fractal dimension .. in his case, of a road rather than a coastline |
| 19:38:29 | <darkling> | It's got to be mathematical paint of infinitesimal thickness. |
| 19:38:38 | <ski> | (the whole keynote is quite enjoyable) |
| 19:38:39 | <darkling> | I think it's made from the milk of a spherical cow. |
| 19:39:07 | <EvanR> | space filling curves are like the biggest troll |
| 19:39:15 | <ski> | i think that's too low-resolution of a cow. it should be two spheres, connected by a cylinder |
| 19:39:53 | <darkling> | https://carfax.org.uk/files/temp/Cow.png |
| 19:40:15 | <EvanR> | that's just a basic image needed for business at carfax |
| 19:40:21 | <darkling> | (I must have rendered that over 20 years ago...) |
| 19:40:31 | <ski> | i read a physics book once, and it had a picture of the two-sphere cow |
| 19:40:57 | <ski> | (one sphere of lesser radius than the other, i might add) |
| 19:41:02 | <monochrom> | I have trouble envisioning serious fractalness of roads. Roads are made to be not annoying for drivers, for example. |
| 19:41:20 | <darkling> | Really? I can think of a few counterexamples. :) |
| 19:41:23 | <monochrom> | i.e., you don't even do an approximation of space-filling curves to roads. |
| 19:41:27 | <EvanR> | a federal highway should certainly be rather smooth |
| 19:41:28 | <ski> | yea, you have to consider a range of scales |
| 19:41:53 | <EvanR> | but new orleans might require fractal math |
| 19:42:07 | <ski> | the river bank ? |
| 19:42:12 | <EvanR> | just the streets |
| 19:42:23 | <darkling> | ski: Yes, but you have to keep crossing the state line... |
| 19:42:26 | <ski> | i guess they weren't really that planned |
| 19:43:16 | <EvanR> | this margarita place is on a disconnected piece of Miro street on one end of town. Miro street is supposed to be on the complete other side of town. Very confusing |
| 19:43:54 | <ski> | also confusing to have parallel pieces of the same road |
| 19:44:10 | <ski> | (and i'm not talking about the road turning like an "S") |
| 19:44:10 | <monochrom> | OK fibonaccoli is a great idea :) |
| 19:45:32 | <darkling> | Romanesco... |
| 19:45:46 | <EvanR> | you get used to the general shape of everything being a 90 degree warp, so the same street is perpendicular to itself, but streets having been overwritten and renamed is pretty bad |
| 19:46:18 | <darkling> | My mum's house is on a road that needs five right-hand turns to return to. |
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| 19:47:04 | <monochrom> | OK he also does music. So now my question is what's the fractal dimension of Bumbling Bee when you play it 140 notes per minute haha |
| 19:47:33 | <darkling> | monochrom: Isn't that a bit slow for the piece? :) |
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| 19:50:48 | <EvanR> | darkling, did you make that spherical cow in Bryce3D? nice xD |
| 19:51:52 | <darkling> | I can't remember. Possibly DKBTrace? |
| 19:52:15 | <ski> | (he's also playing Vivaldi, at the start of the keynote) |
| 19:55:11 | <darkling> | Aha. I've found the source file. It was PoVRay. |
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