Logs on 2022-10-08 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 01:08:36 | <aviladev[m]> | Shouldn't these be equivalent? They all compile, however, only **1** and **2** work. When using **3** or **4**, `Network.Socket.accept` throws a runtime exception: `*** Exception: Network.Socket.accept: invalid argument (Invalid argument)`... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/dbc490c56015c1a5ab509bc265d0a1fe9519f8e6>) |
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| 01:11:29 | <pragma-> | smh, if Matrix used a url-shortener or something... |
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| 01:19:14 | <aviladev[m]> | > <@aviladev:matrix.org> Shouldn't these be equivalent? They all compile, however, only **1** and **2** work. When using **3** or **4**, `Network.Socket.accept` throws a runtime exception: `*** Exception: Network.Socket.accept: invalid argument (Invalid argument)`... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/3eaae4cb04cc1a283f6fea7d924fc34123ac4779>) |
| 01:19:16 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘<@’ |
| 01:20:43 | <aviladev[m]> | * This is what I believe should be happening when doing ```(`S.listen` 1024) >> return```:... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/7d54b2fc391f70efecd9aa3d8eda88ffee85a308>) |
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| 01:27:29 | <aviladev[m]> | * This is what I expect to be happening when doing ``(`S.listen` 1024) >> return``:... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/32b724711a887f1a507d52eb0f93dc791be4a39f>) |
| 01:32:48 | <aviladev[m]> | * Shouldn't these be equivalent? They all compile, however, only **1** and **2** work. When using **3** or **4**, `Network.Socket.accept` throws a runtime exception: `*** Exception: Network.Socket.accept: invalid argument (Invalid argument)`... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/16ba7029a056ca4e7892f2f7f77dfae360467429>) |
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| 01:34:02 | <aviladev[m]> | * This is what I expect to be happening when doing ``(`S.listen` 1024) >> return``:... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/60eb5638b57e8e9927ff1e4c459c5850b931c212>) |
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| 01:40:08 | <ski> | aviladev[m] : yea, `foo >> bar' is `\x -> bar x', not `\x -> foo x >> bar x' (being `liftA2 (>>) foo bar') |
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| 01:41:39 | <ski> | aviladev[m] : also, just so you know, all your edits appear as separate new messages here |
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| 01:45:02 | <ski> | but yea, you could say your mistake between 2 and 3 was to mistake `liftA2 (>>)' for `(>>)' |
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| 01:46:44 | <ski> | .. so, what's happening differently in 3 and 4 is that your `S.listen s 1024' action is never executed |
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| 02:25:18 | <aviladev[m]> | <ski> "aviladev : also, just so you..." <- I'm sorry, didn't know that. |
| 02:25:39 | <aviladev[m]> | <ski> "aviladev : yea, `foo >> bar' is..." <- If `foo :: r -> a` and `bar :: r -> b`, shouldn't `foo >> bar` be `\x -> (\_ -> bar) (foo x) x`? |
| 02:25:39 | <aviladev[m]> | Are you saying that in this case, `foo x` will never run? Is this because its result is being ignored? |
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| 02:28:50 | <ski> | aviladev[m] : yes, `\x -> (\_ -> bar) (foo x) x' is `\x -> bar x' (like i said). and yes, in this case, `foo x' is never evaluated (much less executed) |
| 02:29:56 | <aviladev[m]> | ski: That's because of lazy evaluation? |
| 02:30:22 | <ski> | (also, when you did that reply, it looks like ‟<aviladev[m]> <ski> "aviladev : also, just so you..." <- I'm sorry, didn't know that.”, on this end) |
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| 02:30:37 | <ski> | it's because of non-strict evaluation |
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| 02:32:08 | <aviladev[m]> | ski: I'll just mention then. |
| 02:32:11 | <ski> | (Haskell doesn't have lazy evaluation. laziness is a particular way in which non-strictness may be implemented. strict vs. non-strict is about the "what" (what answer/result will you get ?), while by-value, by-name, by-need (aka lazy) is about the "how" (what are the steps needed to compute an answer ?)) |
| 02:33:34 | <ski> | the reply isn't *that* annoying (though sure can look a bit weird), i guess. the edit message, otoh, can be a bit spammy |
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| 02:34:48 | <ski> | @where lazy |
| 02:34:49 | <lambdabot> | "Lazy Evaluation of Haskell" by monochrom at <http://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/lazy.xhtml>; "The Incomplete Guide to Lazy Evaluation (in Haskell)" by apfelmus in 2015-03-07 at <https://apfelmus. |
| 02:34:49 | <lambdabot> | nfshost.com/articles/lazy-eval.html>; "Laziness, strictness, guarded recursion" by bitemyapp at <https://github.com/bitemyapp/learnhaskell/blob/master/specific_topics.md#user-content-laziness- |
| 02:34:49 | <lambdabot> | strictness-guarded-recursion> |
| 02:35:12 | <ski> | might be interesting, to learn about laziness |
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| 02:36:25 | <ski> | GHC does laziness. afaik, every Haskell implementation has. but some may also have experimented somewhat with other strategies (like parallel optimistic evaluation, evaluating something on another core, that you think might be needed soon, in case you have a core to spare) |
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| 02:37:14 | <ski> | (laziness also implies important things for space usage, so in practice one should learn about it. just saying that the language itself doesn't actually specify it) |
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| 03:10:29 | <aviladev[m]> | @ski ok, that's a lot of information, I'll try to read about that when I have more time, although I don't think I'll understand too much of it 😅.... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/fb652df9535397108d30855e1ab11d6a28abf159>) |
| 03:10:29 | <lambdabot> | Maybe you meant: wiki src ask |
| 03:12:20 | <ski> | heh, i guess i should also say that there's no need to adorn nicknames with sigils (like `@') (this is not an IRC custom), when referring to, or responding to, them. simply mention the nickname. if you want to respond, e.g. first list the nickname, then a comma or colon say, and the bulk of the message |
| 03:13:04 | <ski> | (most IRC clients will highlight/alert the user when their nickname is mentioned, *first* in a message (iow, *not* with `@' prefixing it). not as many will do it, if it's mentioned later in the message) |
| 03:13:31 | <ski> | (besides, `@' already means something (else), on IRC (specifically, it means channel operator)) |
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| 03:15:57 | <ski> | foo >>= runReaderT (ReaderT bar >> ReaderT baz >> ReaderT return) -- this would work, i think |
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| 03:17:10 | <ski> | or (obviously) : foo >>= liftA2 (>>) bar (liftA2 (>>) baz return) |
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| 03:20:04 | <ski> | ooc : |
| 03:20:06 | <ski> | @pl foo >>= \x -> bar x >> baz x >> return x |
| 03:20:06 | <lambdabot> | ap ((>>) . liftM2 (>>) bar baz) return =<< foo |
| 03:20:21 | <ski> | yea .. nope |
| 03:20:25 | <ski> | @pl foo >>= \x -> bar x >> (baz x >> return x) |
| 03:20:25 | <lambdabot> | liftM2 (>>) bar (liftM2 (>>) baz return) =<< foo |
| 03:20:39 | <ski> | (which is what i already said) |
| 03:22:44 | <ski> | (`@' is used in here to indicate commands to lambdabot, if that wasn't clear. `pl' is short for `pointless', a command for converting code to "pointless form", by removing "points" (meaning elements/values), iow removing explicitly named function inputs, typically converting to function composition, and other function combinators) |
| 03:23:06 | <ski> | @help pl |
| 03:23:07 | <lambdabot> | pointless <expr>. Play with pointfree code. |
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| 04:02:53 | <aviladev[m]> | ski nice, thank you! Both `runReaderT` and nesting `liftM2` worked. |
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| 04:11:51 | <ski> | np |
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| 11:41:06 | <chomwitt> | hi. i'm doing some elementary tutorial exercises. I added in my foo.hs the line : toPart recipient = "Dear" ++ recipient ++ ",\n" and trying to load it in my ghci with :l foo.hs i get Failed, no modules loaded with a red arror highigthing the '=' |
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| 11:47:59 | <[Leary]> | chomwitt: The real error is probably before that line. |
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| 11:50:32 | chomwitt | checking |
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| 11:54:12 | <chomwitt> | https://pastes.io/ryymtyujhb |
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| 11:59:14 | <[Leary]> | @where paste |
| 11:59:14 | <lambdabot> | Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com |
| 11:59:47 | <[Leary]> | Try that one. Your pastebin denies ad blockers, so I don't know how many would bother to look at it. |
| 11:59:47 | <jackdk> | chomwitt: line 9 should begin with the keyword `let` |
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| 12:25:22 | <chomwitt> | sorry for my paste bin. |
| 12:25:35 | <chomwitt> | jackdk, 'let' helped. |
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| 12:46:34 | <chomwitt> | finally my error (althougt not clearly stated in the book) was that 'toPart' is a new fuction that must not be indented. |
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| 14:18:04 | <heinz9> | Are there use cases for having morphisms in programming? |
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| 14:18:52 | <geekosaur> | every function is a morphism, so pretty obviously yes |
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| 14:20:55 | <int-e> | but of course you can program without worrying about morphisms |
| 14:22:02 | <geekosaur> | knowing about morphisms doesn't help you program, it's more the other direction: functions being morphisms helps you reason about programs |
| 14:23:00 | <geekosaur> | (or, more to the point in Haskell in particular, tells the compiler more about what it can do to optimize a program) |
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| 14:24:10 | <geekosaur> | it can treat a program as a mathematical graph and manipulate it as such, and "knowing" that functions are morphisms helps guide those manipulations |
| 14:24:31 | <ski> | knowing that a function you want to program is intended to be a homomorphism (wrt some algebra) can help you derive an implementation for it |
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| 14:28:09 | geekosaur | isn't quite there yet… |
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| 14:32:54 | <heinz9> | are programming functions more as math morphisms or more as math functions? |
| 14:34:14 | <geekosaur> | not clear to me there's a difference: [07 17:43:14] <monochrom> In fact mathematicians use "name: type -> type" too because category theory started that notation. |
| 14:34:42 | <geekosaur> | granting that this is less helpful in a language without pure functions |
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| 14:35:00 | <dolio> | I don't think category theory actually started that notation. |
| 14:35:17 | <dolio> | I forget the details, though. |
| 14:36:49 | <ski> | hm, istr seeing some historical notice in "Categories for the Working Mathematician" by Saunders MacLane, about that, talking about it coming from algebraic topologists, Hurewicz, or somesuch |
| 14:37:26 | <ski> | (and that the notation contributed to considering the notion, iirc) |
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| 14:37:51 | <dolio> | I think there's some mathoverflow question where people dug up the history of the notation. |
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| 14:41:54 | <geekosaur> | https://mathoverflow.net/questions/194377/when-was-the-arrow-notation-for-functions-first-introduced |
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| 14:58:15 | <heinz9> | are there use cases vor math categories in haskell |
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| 15:18:59 | <EvanR> | heinz9, .oO( conal elliot compiling to categories, paper, videos ) |
| 15:19:12 | <EvanR> | elliott* |
| 15:20:49 | <L29Ah> | how do i debug a "thread blocked indefinitely in an STM transaction"? is there a better tool than just tracing what's happening with my STM primitives? |
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| 15:24:51 | <zebrag> | "[applicative parsers are] amenable to static analysis" (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26301543). Very enticing but, despite months of searching in that direction, I haven't found many convincing examples, if any. |
| 15:25:46 | <EvanR> | L29Ah, one retroactive suggestion is to not use primitives, but async tasks from the async library. Which can be used in STM |
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| 15:36:46 | <EvanR> | zebrag, not sure what language the blog post is in... |
| 15:37:07 | <EvanR> | ocaml... |
| 15:43:10 | <L29Ah> | EvanR: then i'll have to write my own library for thread pools |
| 15:43:36 | <EvanR> | that does not follow |
| 15:44:11 | <EvanR> | also, are you sure you need thread pools. This is haskell |
| 15:44:30 | <L29Ah> | i am using a modified async-pool library and experiencing the aforementioned STM problem with it, using tasks from the async library instead would require me to rewrite the pool logic |
| 15:44:44 | <L29Ah> | i am sure that i run out of resources if i spawn everything at once |
| 15:46:02 | <EvanR> | so you want a throttler, which could be a higher level task |
| 15:46:51 | <EvanR> | jobs have to wait for their work by going through the throttler |
| 15:47:15 | <EvanR> | I have no idea nvm |
| 15:47:45 | <EvanR> | just that the threads themselves are usually not the scarce resource |
| 15:48:08 | <L29Ah> | yes, but each thread needs a fd and a big chunk of memory in my case |
| 15:48:54 | <EvanR> | if each thread's code acquires the fd and memory, and blocks for whatever reason, then they can still be spawned all at once |
| 15:49:07 | <EvanR> | but it requires something throttling access |
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| 16:04:12 | <L29Ah> | EvanR: so, a thread pool seems like the easiest thing to implement :) |
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| 16:05:13 | <EvanR> | my mistake I thought this was going to some java like thing |
| 16:06:05 | <EvanR> | 8 chonky threads revved up waiting in an array because it would be too slow to spawn them on demand |
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| 19:35:23 | <anthezium> | hey, anyone have some experience with singleton-base? I've been using the promoted type families in Data.List.Singletons, and many work as expected, e.g. All, but I'm getting a not-completely-reduced-looking value for some of the set operations. for example, (where X, Y are Types):> :kind! (Data.List.Singletons.Delete X '[X, Y]) |
| 19:35:28 | <anthezium> | (Data.List.Singletons.Delete X '[X, Y]) :: [*] |
| 19:35:30 | <anthezium> | = singletons-base-3.1.1-ff54512716cfd5117f89ad150dcfbc806e804d7c85ee41539016ae5b972dc513:Data.List.Singletons.Internal.Case_6989586621679765428 (Data.Eq.Singletons.==@#@$) X X '[Y] (X Data.Eq.Singletons.== X) |
| 19:36:58 | <anthezium> | *singletons-base, on hackage here: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/singletons-base |
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| 19:37:41 | <geekosaur> | matrix edits do confusing things on IRC |
| 19:38:16 | <anthezium> | "matrix edit"? |
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| 19:38:36 | <darkling> | Using the message-edit feature of matrix. |
| 19:39:13 | <geekosaur> | which that looked like |
| 19:39:33 | <geekosaur> | it was still a bit confusing |
| 19:39:46 | <anthezium> | TIL about matrix |
| 19:40:13 | <anthezium> | it is not a matrix edit, but I agree that it is confusing |
| 19:41:22 | <anthezium> | I read it as "Delete X '[X, Y] has kind [*], and type (Case_6989586621679765428 (Data.Eq.Singletons.==@#@$) X X '[Y] (X Data.Eq.Singletons.== X))" |
| 19:42:14 | <geekosaur> | I meant the line starting with * |
| 19:42:29 | <anthezium> | geekosaur: oh, sorry about that |
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| 19:43:21 | <geekosaur> | the rest is confusing too, but typical for singletons 🙂 |
| 19:43:35 | <anthezium> | If I just reimplement Delete instead of using the version promoted with TH from singletons-base, then it works fine |
| 19:44:30 | geekosaur | knows very little about singletons, but what he does know makes him think that stuff should have stayed in idris 🙂 |
| 19:44:40 | <anthezium> | I am wondering if the singletons-base version is either using some notion of equality that doesn't work for this purpose, or is asking for me to supply a notion of equality |
| 19:45:20 | <geekosaur> | also there are some limitations to :kind! that mean it doesn't always reduce type functions, iirc |
| 19:45:36 | <anthezium> | I did not know that, that is helpful |
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| 19:46:47 | <geekosaur> | % :kind!! Int |
| 19:46:48 | <yahb2> | unknown command ':kind!!' ; use :? for help. |
| 19:47:06 | <anthezium> | % :kind! Int |
| 19:47:06 | <yahb2> | Int :: * ; = Int |
| 19:47:12 | <geekosaur> | mm, not in that version. supposedly `:kind!!` is in the works somewhere |
| 19:47:21 | <geekosaur> | but I don't see it in 9.2 or 9.4 |
| 19:48:07 | <geekosaur> | % :show version |
| 19:48:07 | <yahb2> | syntax: ; :show [args | prog | editor | stop | imports | modules | bindings | ; linker | breaks | context | packages | paths | language | targets] |
| 19:48:17 | <geekosaur> | ah well |
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| 19:51:56 | <anthezium> | I am on 9.4.2 and no :kind!! '[B] |
| 19:52:06 | <anthezium> | oops, disregard the '[B] |
| 19:53:25 | <geekosaur> | yeh, I checked the manual for that |
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| 19:55:28 | <anthezium> | looks like the issue transcends :kind! |
| 19:55:40 | <anthezium> | I loaded this in ghci: |
| 19:55:42 | <anthezium> | type SingletonsExample = Data.List.Singletons.Delete A '[B, A] |
| 19:55:42 | <anthezium> | checkSingletonsExample :: (SingletonsExample ~ '[B]) => () |
| 19:55:42 | <anthezium> | checkSingletonsExample = () |
| 19:56:01 | <anthezium> | > :t checkSingletonsExample |
| 19:56:01 | <anthezium> | <interactive>:1:1: error: |
| 19:56:01 | <anthezium> | • Couldn't match type: singletons-base-3.1.1:Data.List.Singletons.Internal.Case_6989586621679765428 |
| 19:56:03 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘:’ |
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| 19:56:04 | <anthezium> | (==@#@$) A B '[A] (A == B) |
| 19:56:07 | <anthezium> | with: '[B] |
| 19:56:09 | <anthezium> | arising from a use of ‘checkSingletonsExample’ |
| 19:56:12 | <anthezium> | • In the expression: checkSingletonsExample |
| 19:56:52 | <anthezium> | my workaround (reimplementing it myself) works fine, just was curious if there was something obvious i was missing. |
| 19:57:46 | <anthezium> | is there a more popular way to do programming at the type level in Haskell, or am I pretty much trying to do things that will only be easy if Haskell gets dependent types? |
| 19:58:16 | <anthezium> | I have spent some time in the typeclasses with functional dependencies salt mines, couldn't even get this far |
| 19:59:39 | <geekosaur> | singletons is pretty much it until real dependent Haskell |
| 19:59:50 | <anthezium> | thanks, that is good to know |
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| 20:03:01 | <anthezium> | I am sad that instance chains never got an implementation in ghc, it is a good fit for e.g. computing a transitive closure of a relation, some of the other things I have ended up doing in type families with like, primitive pure functional programming |
| 20:04:59 | <anthezium> | you can compute the transitive closure of a relation w/typeclasses in ghc, it is just weirder and less intuitive. and I haven't been able to figure out many other "simple programs" in ghc typeclasses |
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| 21:18:06 | <zebrag> | EvanR: yes, the comments are mostly Haskell, but the reference at the top is ocaml indeed. Seems I mostly used that page as illustration for "applicative parser / static analysis", as a "proof" stat some people are considering it, and that it seems nice, but I haven't found any example yet of what they are really talking about. |
| 21:18:21 | <zebrag> | so let's put a pin on it |
| 21:24:04 | <zebrag> | But it's the whole point of why using applicative parsers instead of full fledge monadic parsers. |
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| 21:24:22 | <heinz9> | Can AI become really dangerous and why? |
| 21:24:37 | <geekosaur> | nobody knows |
| 21:24:47 | <geekosaur> | and it's not really a question for this channel |
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| 21:29:04 | <heinz9> | isnt ai not often programed with functional languages? |
| 21:30:00 | <heinz9> | if no one knows, then why is it said to be common sense, that ai will become very dangeroud |
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| 21:31:01 | <geekosaur> | "common sense" is neither |
| 21:31:25 | <heinz9> | what is the common sense |
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| 21:31:49 | <geekosaur> | and this is a question about AI in general, not about Haskell. perhaps you want #haskell-offtopic |
| 21:31:55 | <geekosaur> | you misunderstood my comment |
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| 21:32:42 | <geekosaur> | people talk about "common sense" but my observation is that "common sense" either isn't common, or isn't sense, or often isn't either |
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| 21:32:54 | <geekosaur> | so I don't put a lot of stock into it |
| 21:33:32 | <anthezium> | yeah, it requires shared context and reasoning which may or may not be present |
| 21:34:58 | <zebrag> | "ai", is it the chimpanzee, or the sloth? |
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| 21:36:00 | <geekosaur> | my opinion is that AI is made by humans and will therefore reflect humans. this could well be bad in the long run considering how humans behave when in power, but we're nowhere near the point where that will be relevant |
| 21:36:32 | <Guest|60> | I just installed ghcup. When I run ghc-pkg check, it reports some missing items. Can I retrieve those through ghcup? |
| 21:37:29 | <geekosaur> | make sure you don't have another ghc lying around somewhere. notably on arch, which will give you a defective ghc installation via pacman |
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| 21:40:06 | <Guest|60> | Ok. which ghc brings up /usr/bin/ghc, which is probably the culprit. Thanks |
| 21:42:03 | <EvanR> | zebrag, I also heard about monoidal parsers from a video somewheres/ |
| 21:42:19 | <EvanR> | / should have been ... |
| 21:42:56 | <zebrag> | yes... |
| 21:43:06 | <EvanR> | holy crap the intro to this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Txf7swrcLYs |
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| 21:45:25 | <EvanR> | all things being equal, monoids have gotta be nicer and applicative functor or monads, in case the later two are not also monoids somehow xD |
| 21:45:31 | <EvanR> | nicer than* |
| 21:47:46 | <zebrag> | "That makes it possible to perform certain kinds of static analysis on applicative values" https://arxiv.org/pdf/1403.0749.pdf "free applicative functor" but I never understood the gist of it |
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| 21:50:10 | <EvanR> | an applicative "program" is kind of a what you see is what you get |
| 21:51:12 | <EvanR> | monad programs have arbitrary functions connecting things together, so... *hand wave* no static analysis |
| 21:51:38 | <justsomeguy> | Oh, an Edward Kmett video. This is going to be really information dense, isn't it? |
| 21:51:41 | <zebrag> | applicatives are fine and I have no problem understanding what they are and the difference with monads |
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| 21:52:37 | <EvanR> | this is a longer less dense version of the talk I originally saw I think from boston haskell |
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| 21:53:01 | <EvanR> | so if you have the time your info baud rate might be ok |
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All times are in UTC on 2022-10-08.