Logs on 2022-10-13 (liberachat/#haskell)
| 00:01:11 | <EvanR> | now I'm going to think about "somewhat late compilation" |
| 00:01:47 | <EvanR> | better late than never might sound less snarky |
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| 00:41:35 | <chymera> | hi guys, any idea how I can encode a url so that conduit can get stuff from it? http://dpaste.com/HYHY3FRV9 |
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| 00:45:42 | <Clint> | chymera: what do you mean, "get stuff from it" |
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| 00:46:28 | <chymera> | get the text which the URL returns |
| 00:46:34 | <chymera> | Clint: ^ |
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| 00:49:08 | <Clint> | chymera: so you want to do a GET request of https://wttr.in/?m&format=%t and get the response back as a lazy bytestring? |
| 00:49:24 | <chymera> | Clint: yes :) |
| 00:49:57 | <Clint> | so what happened with the code you commented out? |
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| 00:50:35 | <jackdk> | Oh, I thought we were streaming the URL itself ;-). Try `http-conduit` package, which gives you the response body as a conduit directly. `withResponse` seems like a good place to start. https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/BsSUZulL/Foo.hs |
| 00:51:52 | <chymera> | Clint: it doesn't like the method for some reason :( https://dpaste.com/7YLXQFHNF |
| 00:52:21 | <Clint> | type mismatch |
| 00:52:37 | <Clint> | the example code you're copying from probably uses OverloadedStrings |
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| 00:54:59 | <chymera> | jackdk: right, but I don't just want to return the url string, I want to access the url and get the content of the page |
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| 00:55:39 | <jackdk> | chymera: Yeah, the actually serious part of my response is the second half. Have a look at the `http-conduit` library |
| 00:55:42 | <chymera> | Clint: so it wants a normal string, and for some reason `"GET"` in my code counts as a different variant of the string type which it doesn't like? |
| 00:55:53 | <jackdk> | chymera: `{-# LANGUAGE OverloadedStrings #-}` |
| 00:56:01 | <jackdk> | at the top of the file |
| 00:56:40 | <chymera> | jackdk: I thought that's the package I was using when I was importing conduit |
| 00:57:18 | <jackdk> | oh you are indeed. Yeah there are other functions in that Data.HTTP.Conduit module which give you the response body as an actual conduit |
| 00:57:20 | <chymera> | oh, cool, thanks |
| 00:57:32 | <chymera> | after adding `{-# LANGUAGE OverloadedStrings #-}` to the top of the file the error goes away |
| 00:58:33 | <jackdk> | (I'm on a work call, so replies will be spotty from here on out) |
| 00:59:03 | _xor | yawns and stretches |
| 00:59:07 | <_xor> | All right, back to the grind. |
| 00:59:09 | <chymera> | I now get the error I was initially encountering. This code http://dpaste.com/3H3WHZR5T gives me http://dpaste.com/BTJSEB6KL |
| 00:59:37 | <chymera> | is there any way to auto-convert the link to the correct encoding? |
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| 01:00:03 | <_xor> | So what should I look into for vendoring dependencies for offline installation again? Someone mentioned 7.2 of the cabal docs. Looked at it earlier and I'm starting to get a better idea, but not fully clear. |
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| 01:02:44 | <Axman6> | chymera: does "https://wttr.in/?m" work? |
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| 01:05:38 | <Axman6> | chymera: and what about "https://wttr.in/?m&format=%25t"? |
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| 01:19:04 | <Axman6> | anyone else ever wanted more succinct syntax for the `foo x y >>= \case ...` idiom? |
| 01:19:48 | <Axman6> | I feel like I want something like `mcase foo x y of ...` but I also kinda hate that |
| 01:21:49 | <L29Ah> | do you want an APL-like syntax for Haskell? |
| 01:21:50 | <geekosaur> | funny, \case started out as that more succinct syntax |
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| 01:22:26 | <EvanR> | that form is nice, except that I use it once in a while and so I also have to scroll to the top of the file and put a language pragma |
| 01:22:40 | <EvanR> | low thrust to weight ratio |
| 01:26:04 | <EvanR> | imagine if C required you to put a pragma if you want to use break to break out of a loop, or you can use a goto + label to get the same effect |
| 01:26:51 | <EvanR> | without a pragma |
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| 01:27:33 | <Clint> | i'd put the pragma |
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| 01:29:59 | <L29Ah> | `#pragma bracket` plz |
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| 01:32:16 | <EvanR> | editor macro to just put all the pragmas and includes you'll ever need... I guess I should have already done that |
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| 01:33:08 | <Axman6> | well, pragma just left |
| 01:33:41 | <EvanR> | *pragma's not here* |
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| 01:38:26 | <chymera> | Axman6: indeed, with those links I no longer get the error — but is there any way to get the percentage encoding done automatically? |
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| 01:39:14 | <chymera> | also, the string I get and then print, actually doesn't contain what the page for that link would show 🤔 http://dpaste.com/GEWNW89CL |
| 01:39:46 | <chymera> | any idea how I can actually “get” the string that appears in the page? i.e. what you would see in the browser or get with wget? |
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| 01:43:06 | <Axman6> | that looks like logging to me |
| 01:43:35 | <Axman6> | you're not actually fetching the data in https://dpaste.com/3H3WHZR5T |
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| 01:45:28 | <Axman6> | chymera: can you give some more clarity on what you actually want? your code is full of comments of several different ways to do things - I would lbs <- simpleHttp "https://wttr.in/?m&format=%t" to work, if you fix the encoding issues |
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| 01:45:44 | <Axman6> | do you want a Conduit? or do you want a Bytestring? |
| 01:47:04 | <chymera> | I want a string, something like "+4°C" I'm not entirely sure what a condiut is |
| 01:48:54 | <chymera> | Axman6: and re the “encoding issues”, is there any was for that to be done automatically? i.e. converting % to %25 or whatever else might be necesary? |
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| 02:13:32 | <ski> | EvanR : it does sound interesting. any pointers ? |
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| 02:15:51 | <ski> | Axman6 : "anyone else ever wanted more succinct syntax for the `foo x y >>= \case ...` idiom?","I feel like I want something like `mcase foo x y of ...` but I also kinda hate that" -- yea, i believe my lexical/reflective effects syntax idea could help there |
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| 02:18:02 | <EvanR> | on update frames? Not really... a random duck duck go reveals the sentence "The GC will remove indirections during copying, changing code that pointed to a indirection (evaluated thunk) to the actual value closure." on https://www.scs.stanford.edu/11au-cs240h/notes/ghc.html I feel like I should ask you for links to the secrets of ghc xD |
| 02:18:27 | <ski> | well, where did you hear/read/learn about it ? |
| 02:18:42 | <EvanR> | in here, from monochrom and dolio xD |
| 02:18:57 | <ski> | ah, figures ;P |
| 02:19:29 | <EvanR> | one day when I was trying to understand performance of something equivalent to the implementation of span |
| 02:19:29 | <ski> | i know the GC can rewrite `fst (foo,bar)' to `foo' |
| 02:20:09 | <ski> | (i forgot what this is called, but apparently that's one thing it can do, to try to avoid some kinds of space leaks) |
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| 02:22:17 | <ski> | (hm, looking at that sentence, i'm not sure if it's talking about the same thing i was recalling) |
| 02:22:18 | <EvanR> | yeah and then elsewhere there is a snd (foo,bar) |
| 02:22:23 | <Clinton[m]> | If I have:... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/f57acdba2c4f0fd95e5d43b48a8ed0b96246242a>) |
| 02:22:42 | <monochrom> | GC does both. |
| 02:22:55 | <EvanR> | (I'm jumping to that conclusion because no there's no fst or snd, it looks like a pattern match to me) |
| 02:23:27 | <ski> | @unmtl ReaderT r (EitherT e m) a -> ReaderT r m a |
| 02:23:27 | <lambdabot> | ReaderT r (EitherT e m) a -> ReaderT r m a |
| 02:23:29 | <ski> | @unmtl ReaderT r (EitherT e m) a |
| 02:23:29 | <lambdabot> | r -> EitherT e m a |
| 02:23:34 | <ski> | @unmtl ReaderT r m a |
| 02:23:34 | <lambdabot> | r -> m a |
| 02:23:36 | <monochrom> | They're also pretty orthogonal, I would think. Changing "fst (x,y)" to x does not require "fst (x,y)" to be evaluated. |
| 02:24:20 | <ski> | so, effectively, you're asking about going from `f :: C e m => EitherT e m a -> m a' to `g :: C e m => (r -> EitherT e m a) -> (r -> m a)' .. can you see how to do this latter ? |
| 02:24:31 | <ski> | Clinton[m] ^ |
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| 02:25:36 | <ski> | EvanR : might work for all pattern-matches that merely select a field, i suppose |
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| 02:25:56 | <Clinton[m]> | ski: yes :) Silly me... I should really think of it like that shouldn't I. That's just `fmap` right? |
| 02:27:01 | <ski> | well, technically yes .. but that reduces to something simpler, in the `r -> ...' case |
| 02:27:46 | ski | idly wonders whether to decompose the problem more |
| 02:27:53 | <EvanR> | the mysterious part is it seems like you have in one hand foo, and in the other hand bar. And the one evaluator is working on foo, seemingly works on bar with spooky action at a distance |
| 02:28:13 | <ski> | "works" how, or in what sense ? |
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| 02:29:18 | <EvanR> | foo being the next thing to evaluate for the overall task, bar being based on the same list but starting later, will be needed after the foo |
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| 02:30:57 | <EvanR> | since they were created in the same tuple, can they be traversed together, allowing the list to be collected asap |
| 02:31:19 | <Clinton[m]> | ski: `g = ReaderT . fmap f . runReaderT` yes? That is pretty. |
| 02:31:50 | <EvanR> | s/can they/they can/ |
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| 02:35:31 | <Axman6> | ski: "lexical/reflective effects syntax"? |
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| 02:38:22 | <EvanR> | wow the asm code given for add x y = x + y + 2 on that page is... significant xD |
| 02:38:35 | <EvanR> | where add :: Int -> Int -> Int |
| 02:43:12 | <Axman6> | I feel like lexi-lambda's video released yesterday is a good companion to those slides |
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| 03:00:54 | <Clinton[m]> | ski: I note I can write this helper function:... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/6d251cfe1734ed0e5f870b5b0f9c6d9a87eb8624>) |
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| 03:04:10 | <Clinton[m]> | Or something like this: |
| 03:04:11 | <Clinton[m]> | ``` |
| 03:04:11 | <Clinton[m]> | (m a -> n a) -> (t m a -> t n a) |
| 03:04:11 | <Clinton[m]> | ``` |
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| 03:07:06 | <jackdk> | Clinton[m]: `mmorph:Control.Monad.Morph.hoist`? |
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| 03:12:36 | <ski> | Axman6 : i've talked about it in here before, on several occasions. last was slightly over two weeks ago, see <https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/day/lchaskell/2022/09/28>. conversation with enoq ended up with me briefly summarizing it |
| 03:13:02 | <ski> | Axman6 : video link ? |
| 03:14:00 | <ski> | @type mapReaderT -- Clinton[m] ? |
| 03:14:01 | <lambdabot> | (m a -> n b) -> ReaderT r m a -> ReaderT r n b |
| 03:15:46 | <ski> | but yea, `hoist' is sorta similar, would (also) work for Clinton[m] original question, but not for the new helper in the paste above |
| 03:16:03 | <probie> | Is there a way to have a newtype that's somewhat like a GADT? Something like `newtype Foo a where Foo :: Int -> Foo Bar`. The best I can come up with abusing pattern synonyms over `newtype Foo a = FooInternal Int` |
| 03:16:54 | <ski> | i've wanted that, at times .. sometimes with more than one constructor (with non-overlapping indices) |
| 03:18:05 | <ski> | i think currently, phantoms, enhanced by pattern synonyms, are probably your best bet |
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| 03:19:17 | <ski> | (at one point, people did just phantoms, to try to simulate some of the effects of GADTs .. possibly together with some `unsafeCoerce's) |
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| 03:23:30 | <ski> | (with a normal `data' GADT, you can learn the indices by matching on the data constructor. but what i was talking about is more like a variant where you're only allowed to math on a data constructor if the indices are already known to match. (cf. a pattern-matching function (perhaps recursive), returning a type, in a dependent language, as opposed to an indexed `data' family, the latter is more like GADTs). |
| 03:23:36 | <ski> | then one could have a `newtype' variant of *that* alternative kind of data type with concrete indices, that allowed multiple alternatives, as long as there were no overlap) |
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| 03:26:21 | <ski> | (sometimes i've wondered if there'sn't a similarity between GADTs / indexed families vs. these "look inside only if indices match" types, and predicates/relations in logic programming with output parameters (perhaps like bottom-up deductive database even) vs. input parameters ..) |
| 03:26:44 | <Clinton[m]> | jackdk: hoist is what I was looking for! Thanks! |
| 03:27:06 | <ski> | Clinton[m] : also see my suggestion |
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| 03:27:51 | <ski> | there's also `mapWriterT',`mapStateT',`mapContT',`mapRWST' |
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| 03:28:54 | <Clinton[m]> | Ah, so `hoist` is just a typeclass that generalises `mapBlahT`? |
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| 03:29:07 | <ski> | .. sortof, but not quite ? |
| 03:29:14 | <ski> | note that `hoist' is rank-2 |
| 03:29:20 | <ski> | while the ones i mentioned aren't |
| 03:29:34 | <ski> | @type mapWriterT |
| 03:29:35 | <lambdabot> | (m (a, w) -> n (b, w')) -> WriterT w m a -> WriterT w' n b |
| 03:29:39 | <ski> | @type mapStateT |
| 03:29:40 | <Clinton[m]> | ski: I'm not sure I understand, but I think all I needed was `mapReaderT` or more generally, `hoist`? |
| 03:29:41 | <lambdabot> | (m (a, s) -> n (b, s)) -> StateT s m a -> StateT s n b |
| 03:30:04 | <ski> | note that these expose "implementation details" of the insides of these monad transformers |
| 03:30:22 | <ski> | (well, they're considered pretty public .. but you get the idea, i hope) |
| 03:30:41 | <ski> | rank-2 can be used for information hiding, hiding which particular type you're going to pick |
| 03:31:25 | <ski> | so, `hoist' goes `(forall x. m x -> n x) -> ..m..n..' preventing you from seeing (and taking advantage of, messing with) which insides of `m' and `n' it'll use |
| 03:32:19 | <ski> | Clinton[m] : in your specific case, `mapReaderT' would be the less powerful hammer to use. but it's good to be aware of `hoist', if you need it |
| 03:32:41 | <ski> | and sometimes this encapsulation of implementation details thing is specifically what you'd like |
| 03:33:01 | <Axman6> | ski: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdyh3YQ-ZWI (also ping EvanR) |
| 03:33:07 | <ski> | ty |
| 03:34:42 | <Clinton[m]> | ski: ah, so I think in my question I need `hoist`. I'm confusing myself here. But I'm actually using `bmap` from barbies here, so yes, hoist is doing the job. I'm mapping over a rank2 type parameter. |
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| 03:36:17 | <ski> | Clinton[m] : also note that `hoist' is `(forall x. m x -> n x) -> (forall a. t m a -> t n a)', while the pattern of these `mapBlahT's are `(m (Something par0 .. a0) -> n (Something par1 .. a1)) -> (BlahT par0 .. m a0 -> BlahT par1 .. m a1)' |
| 03:37:07 | <ski> | Clinton[m] : so, with `mapBlahT' you can change not only `m' to `n', but also `a0' to `a1', and also (in some cases), `par0',.. to `par1',.. |
| 03:37:48 | <ski> | Clinton[m] : while with `hoist', you can only change `m' to `n', can't change `a' (since the callback only sees an opaque `x', which it also isn't allowed to change) |
| 03:38:31 | <ski> | (while this restriction in power of `hoist' also gives more guarantees. "can't mess around with the `x', nor with the `par',.. parts") |
| 03:40:27 | <Clinton[m]> | ski: ah, good point. But in my case that's exactly what I want. I think I just confused myself between the rank1 and rank2 kinds. |
| 03:40:27 | <Clinton[m]> | The current codebase I've got has things like `BlahService m`, where `m` is a Monad. So I want to transform the monad type to compose these services more easily. It's actually working nicely once I wrap my head around it. |
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| 03:41:43 | <ski> | (also, the obvious that `hoist' is a general pattern, that you can opt your transformer into, while `mapBlahT's are ad hoc) |
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| 04:08:41 | <EvanR> | Axman6, exitification transformation |
| 04:09:27 | <EvanR> | learned about a new transformation thanks |
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| 04:22:17 | <EvanR> | some source of update frames, literally https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/wikis/commentary/rts/haskell-execution/updates |
| 04:22:26 | <EvanR> | s/of/on/ |
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| 07:59:46 | <dminuoso> | Mmm. traverse produces an infinite loop, while traverse_ does not *scratches his head* |
| 08:00:23 | <dminuoso> | Even with `traverse (\s -> pure ()) ms` it loops |
| 08:01:01 | <dminuoso> | Is this potentially a faulty <*> implementation? |
| 08:01:39 | <dminuoso> | Oh wow! I just did not define it haha. |
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| 08:02:12 | <dminuoso> | Time to turn missing methods into an actual error. |
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| 08:55:01 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: wait how did a missing method turn into anythin else than an error? |
| 08:55:11 | <tomsmeding> | (a runtime error, I mean) |
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| 09:00:23 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: (<*>) = liftA2 id; liftA2 f x = (<*>) (fmap f x) |
| 09:00:32 | <tomsmeding> | lol |
| 09:00:58 | <tomsmeding> | surely violating MINIMAL yields a ghc warning |
| 09:01:17 | <dminuoso> | Yeah, but Im doing a huge rewrite. There's warnings for unused things all over the place. |
| 09:01:23 | <tomsmeding> | ah |
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| 11:12:56 | <mastarija_> | Why is it not possible to use partially applied type synonyms as arguments to other type synonyms / types? |
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| 11:15:06 | <mastarija_> | To make a typelevel map more useful? |
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| 11:18:53 | <hpc> | mastarija_: you can |
| 11:19:07 | <hpc> | % type Foo = Maybe |
| 11:19:07 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 11:19:14 | <hpc> | % type Bar f = [f Int] |
| 11:19:14 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 11:19:22 | <hpc> | % [Nothing] :: Bar Foo |
| 11:19:22 | <yahb2> | [Nothing] |
| 11:19:41 | <hpc> | what you can't do is partially apply "type Foo a = Maybe a" |
| 11:20:00 | <mastarija_> | Yes, partial application is what I'm after. |
| 11:20:19 | <dr_merijn> | mastarija_: You can't get it |
| 11:20:21 | <hpc> | type aliases are basically just string replacement |
| 11:20:37 | <[Leary]> | There's LiberalTypeSynonyms, but I'm not sure how far it gets you. |
| 11:20:39 | <hpc> | if you did type Foo a = Something a B C |
| 11:20:39 | <mastarija_> | What's this `LiberalTypeSynonyms` about then? I thought |
| 11:20:39 | <dr_merijn> | Type level partial application is equivalent to type-level lambdas |
| 11:20:44 | <mastarija_> | Ah... |
| 11:20:48 | <hpc> | and then just used Foo somewhere |
| 11:20:57 | <hpc> | how does it get reduced? |
| 11:20:57 | × | Midjak quits (~Midjak@82.66.147.146) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) |
| 11:21:28 | <mastarija_> | Ah.. I get it. |
| 11:21:32 | <mastarija_> | Thx |
| 11:21:52 | <mastarija_> | Yes, type level lambda is what I'd like to have then :) |
| 11:22:00 | <hpc> | what dr_merijn says is right too though, sort of |
| 11:22:10 | <hpc> | type level lambdas let you do a LOT, more than ghc can currently handle |
| 11:22:18 | <hpc> | maybe when dependent types happen? |
| 11:22:20 | <dr_merijn> | hpc: I mean, that's a different way of phrasing your example ;) |
| 11:23:01 | <dr_merijn> | mastarija_: Use Idris :p |
| 11:23:16 | <hpc> | there's a lot of different other things that fake it in different ways |
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| 11:23:33 | <hpc> | data definitions can be type-level lambbdas if you squint and accept having to do all the wrapping/unwrapping yourself |
| 11:23:33 | <dr_merijn> | hpc: And all of them will make your life terrible :p |
| 11:23:41 | <hpc> | or type families |
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| 11:24:09 | <hpc> | they all have their own limitations, and yep they'll make your life miserable :D |
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| 11:24:15 | <[Leary]> | Defunctionalised type families aren't that bad to work with, they just aren't very clean. |
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| 11:25:03 | <mastarija_> | Hmm.. gonna try LiberalTypeSynonyms for fun |
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| 11:25:53 | <dminuoso> | What's the price for that extension? |
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| 11:26:14 | <mastarija_> | Price is that it doesn't work as I've intended :) |
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| 11:27:14 | <mastarija_> | I was hoping this'll work somehow but nope `:k! Fmap (Const Int) RandList` |
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| 11:29:42 | <dr_merijn> | mastarija_: Why not Idris, though? |
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| 11:30:16 | <mastarija_> | I wanted to do something in Haskell and type-level lambdas seemed like a nice thing to have for that. |
| 11:30:44 | <dr_merijn> | That's only relevant for Cursed Haskell, though |
| 11:30:56 | <dminuoso> | {-# LANGUAGE Cursed #-} |
| 11:30:58 | <[exa]> | mastarija_: any specific goal though? you might want just type families |
| 11:31:40 | <[exa]> | oh wow that extension could rename our fav function to just performIO |
| 11:31:42 | <mastarija_> | It's a bit hard to explain, but I just wanted a nice type level interface for my curvature library. |
| 11:32:13 | <dminuoso> | [exa]: Heh. Ive finally understood why it was (text still does) called inlinePerformIO. |
| 11:32:23 | <dminuoso> | It really inlines completely! |
| 11:32:43 | <[exa]> | wow |
| 11:33:10 | <[exa]> | mastarija_: for better typechecking or just for more verbose types for users? |
| 11:33:44 | <dminuoso> | A `malloc 4096` in two separate parts? Let-float and share that buffer! That is why the simplifiers main job is inlining, to enable such opportunities. |
| 11:33:45 | <mastarija_> | For cleaner types for the user |
| 11:33:53 | <mastarija_> | And better type checking |
| 11:34:00 | <dminuoso> | Memory saved, even! I wonder why people reported these crashes as bugs. |
| 11:34:44 | <dr_merijn> | mastarija_: My expert advice: don't :p |
| 11:34:50 | <mastarija_> | :P |
| 11:34:56 | <mastarija_> | Try to stop me |
| 11:35:10 | <dr_merijn> | One of the hardest lessons/lines to learn when doing Haskell is that "not everything should be in the type system" (at least, in Haskell) |
| 11:35:27 | <hpc> | this is why i do everything in the kind system |
| 11:36:12 | <dr_merijn> | mastarija_: I don't have to, if people want to hurt and torture themselves, that's on them, they're consenting adults :p |
| 11:36:39 | <dr_merijn> | I'm just providing the warning label so I can point, laugh, and say "I told you so" in the future :D |
| 11:37:01 | <mastarija_> | You'll see!!!! |
| 11:37:12 | <hpc> | lol |
| 11:38:33 | <[exa]> | mastarija_: the ones you have now ain't clean enough? :D |
| 11:38:50 | <mastarija_> | I can always go for more!!! |
| 11:38:55 | <[exa]> | pls paste |
| 11:39:32 | <[exa]> | hpc: rofl @ kind system |
| 11:42:34 | <dminuoso> | I prefer encoding my domain logic into the sort system., |
| 11:42:57 | <dminuoso> | Everything is just BOX. Very simple |
| 11:45:46 | <mastarija_> | I guess I can always go with `(a n ~ f x y n) => ...`. |
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| 12:02:53 | <zzz> | > let 0 = 1 in succ 0 |
| 12:02:55 | <lambdabot> | 1 |
| 12:04:34 | <zzz> | why is this not illegal? |
| 12:04:49 | <dr_merijn> | zzz: You're pattern matching on 0 and not using the result |
| 12:04:55 | <dr_merijn> | So it's a no-op |
| 12:05:11 | <dr_merijn> | > let x@0 = 1 in succ x |
| 12:05:12 | <lambdabot> | *Exception: <interactive>:3:5-11: Non-exhaustive patterns in x@0 |
| 12:05:27 | <dr_merijn> | Your example is (to ghc) equivalent to |
| 12:05:34 | <dr_merijn> | > let x = 1 in succ 0 |
| 12:05:35 | <lambdabot> | 1 |
| 12:05:54 | <zzz> | ah weird |
| 12:06:19 | <dr_merijn> | zzz: The pattern match fails, but since we're a lazy language, the failure is never observed |
| 12:06:25 | <zzz> | abd because let bindings are irrefutable |
| 12:06:28 | <zzz> | right |
| 12:06:34 | <dr_merijn> | (and you can't observe it, because it's not named) |
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| 12:11:04 | <zzz> | there's a "pattern binds no bariables" warning though |
| 12:11:20 | <zzz> | *variables |
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| 12:12:03 | <dminuoso> | zzz: No, its not because they are irrefutable. |
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| 12:13:07 | <dminuoso> | `let 0 = 1 in` is very refutable. |
| 12:13:54 | <dminuoso> | Well. I guess if we took the word literally it is irrefutable because you cannot tractably refute it. But the term "irrefutable pattern" is a partigular standardese term from the Haskell Report. |
| 12:14:09 | <dminuoso> | And let 0 = 1 ` is not an irrefutable pattern according to the haskell report. |
| 12:15:57 | <dminuoso> | The irrefutable patterns are as follows: a variable, a wildcard, N apat where N is a constructor defined by newtype and apat is irrefutable (see Section 4.2.3), var @apat where apat is irrefutable, or of the form ̃apat (whether or not apat is irrefutable). All other patterns are refutable. |
| 12:16:17 | <dminuoso> | So by this wording, `0` is a refutable pattern. |
| 12:16:31 | <dminuoso> | And it does make sense if you think of this in another position, like `f 0 = ...` |
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| 12:18:48 | <dminuoso> | Refutable let patterns can occasionally be useful, especially non-simple patterns like `let (x1, x2) = ...` or maybe on a newtype/data type `let N a = ...` |
| 12:19:38 | <dminuoso> | Fun fact, non-simple patterns are the reason why "adding a type signature" by itself is not generally enough around the MMR problem. |
| 12:20:24 | <dminuoso> | That is, even with a type signature, if you bind using a non-simple pattern, the declaration group will be restricted. |
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| 12:21:32 | <dminuoso> | Or it can be, anyway |
| 12:22:15 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: By the way, yahb2 appears to be broken somehow. |
| 12:22:25 | <dminuoso> | % :set -XNoMonomorphismRestriction |
| 12:22:25 | <yahb2> | <interactive>:1:1: error: Not in scope: ‘Yahb2Defs.limitedPrint’ |
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| 12:50:24 | <kuribas> | what is the reason people don't like conduit? |
| 12:50:35 | <kuribas> | isn't it the easiest for beginners? |
| 12:51:25 | <dr_merijn> | kuribas: WHo doesn't like it, besides maerwald? |
| 12:52:07 | <kuribas> | right :) |
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| 12:55:50 | <lortabac> | as a streaming noob, I find the 'streaming' library easier to understand |
| 12:56:22 | <lortabac> | I spent 10 minutes on each, and I opted for 'streaming' because it was the one I understood the best |
| 12:56:41 | <dminuoso> | They are somewhat different though |
| 12:56:46 | <dminuoso> | That is, they do different things |
| 12:56:53 | <lortabac> | my needs are very simple though |
| 12:58:18 | <lortabac> | dminuoso: possible, I was just answering to "isn't it the easiest for beginners" |
| 12:58:45 | <kuribas> | lortabac: sure, if it fits your usecase well... |
| 12:58:49 | <lortabac> | I'd say no, if by easy we mean it has a low learning curve |
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| 13:00:10 | <kuribas> | if you think of a stream as a unix pipe, it looks the easiest with conduit. |
| 13:00:12 | <dminuoso> | Its interesting, because I always thought `streaming` looked strange and conduit seemed easier |
| 13:00:34 | <kuribas> | you wait for some input, then yield some output. |
| 13:00:44 | <dminuoso> | Especially since it has a good interface for regulating the chunks in the pipeline (waiting, coalescing, yielding more) |
| 13:00:57 | <dminuoso> | Im sure `streaming` can do all those things too, but I find all the types to be very confusing |
| 13:01:07 | <dr_merijn> | dminuoso: same |
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| 17:14:27 | <monochrom> | https://discourse.haskell.org/t/ann-hugs-for-macos-x86-via-nix-flakes/5171?u=taylorfausak |
| 17:14:33 | <monochrom> | Hugs is not dead :) |
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| 17:27:55 | <dolio> | Only mostly dead. |
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| 17:35:34 | <geekosaur> | still gets used by intro haskell courses |
| 17:35:57 | <geekosaur> | since it doesn't undergo changes like Num losing Eq and Show, much less FAM |
| 17:36:08 | <L29Ah> | haskell is so badass it has a separate interpreter just for intro courses |
| 17:36:16 | <geekosaur> | or FTP |
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| 17:59:14 | <EvanR> | hell, why not a whole separate compiler for intro courses. And then we use that compiler |
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| 18:00:56 | <monochrom> | Racket has an IDE just for intro courses. >:) |
| 18:01:18 | <monochrom> | And Python, I believe 2 or 3. |
| 18:01:54 | <L29Ah> | python has a separate language version for intro courses |
| 18:02:01 | <EvanR> | the intro tools have good error messages. When you graduate, you can upgrade to the one with worse error messages |
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| 18:02:33 | <monochrom> | I would s/worse/advanced/ but sure :) |
| 18:02:42 | <L29Ah> | with `print` as a part of syntax to simplify education |
| 18:02:47 | <EvanR> | yes we all speak compiler here |
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| 18:05:45 | <EvanR> | actually ghc is really good, rarely sending me on a wild goose chase due to missing brackets, or telling me overly specialized advice not pertaining in any way to the actual problem like some systems |
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| 18:13:20 | <geekosaur> | hm. don't we still have Helium somewhere? |
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| 18:22:28 | ski | . o O ( "“Well it just so happens that your friend here is only mostly dead. There’s a big difference between mostly dead and all dead… Now, mostly dead is slightly alive. Now, all dead — well, with all dead, there’s usually only one thing that you can do.”,“What’s that?”,“Go through his clothes and look for loose change!”" -- “The Princess Bride” ) |
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| 18:24:13 | byorgey | was thinking of that scene too |
| 18:24:56 | <byorgey> | https://github.com/Helium4Haskell/helium |
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| 18:38:06 | <ski> | @where Helium |
| 18:38:06 | <lambdabot> | http://www.cs.uu.nl/research/projects/helium/ |
| 18:38:17 | <ski> | @where+ Helium Haskell subset for beginners, improved diagnostics (incl. eDSLs). See <https://github.com/Helium4Haskell/helium>,<https://hackage.haskell.org/package/helium>,<https://web.archive.org/web/20160624222240/http://foswiki.cs.uu.nl/foswiki/Helium/WebHome>,<https://web.archive.org/web/20210907032911/http://www.cs.uu.nl/research/projects/helium/>,<https://www.open.ou.nl/bhr/HeliumCompiler.html> |
| 18:38:17 | <lambdabot> | It is forever etched in my memory. |
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| 18:42:10 | <EvanR> | ski, here is what I managed for abstract Doc https://paste.tomsmeding.com/qbWG517C |
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| 18:44:36 | <ski> | (would it make sense to also parameterize `String' in `text' (for use with `Text' instead, e.g.) ?) |
| 18:45:36 | <ski> | (i'd eta `nestStr', i think) |
| 18:46:26 | <EvanR> | text :: String -> Doc, well I was wondering what the meaning of Doc even is xD |
| 18:47:04 | <EvanR> | or do you mean just allow String, Text, ByteString instead of String. Which all have some kind of newline character |
| 18:47:56 | <EvanR> | I didn't know if the out parameter was necessary actually |
| 18:48:05 | <EvanR> | assuming String as in the paper |
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| 18:53:25 | <ski> | > unfoldr (\s -> do guard (not (null s)); Just (drop 1 <$> break ('\n' ==) s)) "foo\nbar\nbaz" |
| 18:53:27 | <lambdabot> | ["foo","bar","baz"] |
| 18:53:30 | <ski> | > (intercalate ('\n' : replicate 3 ' ') . lines) "foo\nbar\nbaz" |
| 18:53:32 | <lambdabot> | "foo\n bar\n baz" |
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| 18:55:13 | <ski> | well, seeing as you parameterized `out', i was wondering why not also the input to `text' |
| 18:55:39 | <EvanR> | I thought out was required for some thing else... apparently not, I just removed it xD |
| 18:55:54 | <ski> | @src intercalate |
| 18:55:54 | <lambdabot> | intercalate xs xss = concat (intersperse xs xss) |
| 18:55:58 | <EvanR> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/k9UM5UI6 |
| 18:56:01 | × | nate1 quits (~nate@98.45.169.16) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 18:56:24 | <EvanR> | I finally remember the difference between intersperse and intercalate enough to get this code right, and it's the wrong one xD |
| 18:58:02 | → | zmt00 joins (~zmt00@user/zmt00) |
| 18:58:07 | ski | . o O ( "Yet Another Tabs v. Spaces Debate" ("I mix tabs and spaces") <http://dmwit.com/tabs/> ) |
| 18:59:23 | × | freeside quits (~mengwong@bb115-66-48-84.singnet.com.sg) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 18:59:50 | <hpc> | i mix vertical tabs and nonbreaking spaces |
| 19:00:05 | <ski> | hehe |
| 19:00:15 | ski | uses form feeds, sometimes |
| 19:00:23 | <hpc> | ooh, that's a good one |
| 19:00:28 | → | lortabac joins (~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:7370:8686:6424:8f5a) |
| 19:00:57 | <hpc> | i end all my lines with a bel character because typewriters ding when they reach the end |
| 19:02:17 | <EvanR> | so in one sense Doc and operations seem like they could be abstract, but then line :: Doc seems to represent "a newline character"... and there is only one concatenation operator instead of horizontal and vertical concat of Doc. So the only meaning I can come up with is "this is basically a string" |
| 19:02:28 | → | eggplantade joins (~Eggplanta@104-55-37-220.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 19:02:35 | <EvanR> | and the abstraction is used by wadler just to get more performance than String |
| 19:03:04 | <EvanR> | i.e. Doc is a faster String. Which is unsatisfying |
| 19:03:06 | <ski> | (Emacs has `C-x [',`C-x ]',`C-x l' for handling (navigation and line count for) multiple pages. i've thought about trying to make an Emacs mode that will only displace the current page in the window. used with `M-x follow-mode' it would show a sequence of adjacent pages in the sequence of windows showing the buffer) |
| 19:03:27 | <ski> | (s/mode/minor mode/) |
| 19:03:36 | × | CiaoSen quits (~Jura@p200300c95700eb002a3a4dfffe84dbd5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 19:04:30 | <ski> | (now i'm also wondering if `nest' would work with negative counts) |
| 19:05:06 | <EvanR> | in the prior work section he mentions a system using negative indentation, and how it's not as elegant xD |
| 19:05:26 | <EvanR> | at least they it was used in that previous paper, to unindent after accidentally indenting too much |
| 19:05:40 | <EvanR> | the way* |
| 19:07:00 | ski | . o O ( .. should files be terminated by an EOT ? ) |
| 19:07:45 | <geekosaur[m]> | back in the day, DOS files were terminated with CTRL-Z |
| 19:07:51 | ← | jakalx parts (~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) (Error from remote client) |
| 19:08:11 | <ski> | text files, not binary ones ? |
| 19:08:37 | <ski> | > '\^D' |
| 19:08:39 | <lambdabot> | '\EOT' |
| 19:08:43 | <geekosaur[m]> | I think only text, yeh. binary files had to be a multiple of the disk block size |
| 19:09:14 | <geekosaur[m]> | (well, so did text files, so ^Z had to be used to mark the actual end of file) |
| 19:09:34 | <ski> | EvanR : didn't Wadler have both vertical and horizontal ? (or am i thinking of another paper ? |
| 19:09:45 | <ski> | ) |
| 19:09:45 | <EvanR> | that was the prior paper by... |
| 19:10:03 | <EvanR> | Hughes |
| 19:10:12 | <ski> | ah, ic |
| 19:10:29 | × | tam-carre quits (~tam-carre@2a01cb088a83b300a322b3f387318318.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 19:10:45 | <ski> | "how it's not as elegant" -- in which sense ? |
| 19:10:52 | <ski> | hm |
| 19:11:37 | <EvanR> | it doesn't say that |
| 19:11:39 | <ski> | there's also stuff like line continuation, "heredocs", &c. |
| 19:11:46 | × | rockystone quits (~rocky@user/rockymarine) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 19:11:48 | <EvanR> | but it does say Hughes version is more complex and at the end |
| 19:11:54 | <ski> | > "\ \" |
| 19:11:55 | <lambdabot> | "" |
| 19:12:08 | <EvanR> | "One might say, the prettier printer hatched in Bird’s nest" (not Hughes') |
| 19:13:16 | → | CiaoSen joins (~Jura@p200300c95700eb002a3a4dfffe84dbd5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 19:13:52 | <ski> | > read "\"\\ \\\"" :: String |
| 19:13:53 | <lambdabot> | "" |
| 19:13:58 | <ski> | > read "\"\\ \n \\\"" :: String |
| 19:14:00 | <lambdabot> | "" |
| 19:14:07 | <EvanR> | what in the heck |
| 19:15:33 | <ski> | you can insert a backslash, followed by whitespace (e.g. including a newline, and spaces and tabs), followed by another backslash, and it'll get elided |
| 19:15:59 | <ski> | > "\&" -- other quirk thing |
| 19:16:01 | <lambdabot> | "" |
| 19:16:22 | × | yvan-sraka quits (~yvan-srak@46.183.103.17) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 19:16:52 | <ski> | > "\SOH\SO\&H\x0041\x00\&41" |
| 19:16:54 | <lambdabot> | "\SOH\SO\&HA\NUL41" |
| 19:18:06 | <EvanR> | soh so ha nul |
| 19:18:32 | <ski> | > read "\"\\ --\n \\\"" :: String |
| 19:18:34 | <lambdabot> | "*Exception: Prelude.read: no parse |
| 19:18:34 | <ski> | > read "\"\\ {--} \\\"" :: String |
| 19:18:35 | <lambdabot> | "*Exception: Prelude.read: no parse |
| 19:18:40 | <EvanR> | this is where the haskell ouroboros zip `ap` tail appears |
| 19:18:52 | <ski> | hah |
| 19:19:05 | <hpc> | @quote aztec |
| 19:19:06 | <lambdabot> | alpounet says: map succ/pred is a scandinavian name generator or what? ... well, scandinavian and aztec |
| 19:19:12 | <hpc> | :( |
| 19:19:32 | <ski> | @quote aztec.god |
| 19:19:32 | <lambdabot> | quicksilver says: zip`ap`tail - the Aztec god of consecutive numbers |
| 19:20:04 | <Vq> | Must be aztec, I don't recognise it as scandinavian. |
| 19:20:23 | <Vq> | Could be danish though... |
| 19:20:31 | <hpc> | also just to answer "why even have this at all", read tries to follow things that are syntactically valid strings |
| 19:20:45 | <hpc> | so if you want to write a multiline string in your source code, apparently that means read has to parse it too |
| 19:21:53 | <ski> | EvanR : anyway, the `line' thing does feel a bit weird, yea |
| 19:22:52 | <ski> | > read "'\\^D'" :: Char -- seems this works, too |
| 19:22:53 | <lambdabot> | '\EOT' |
| 19:22:59 | <EvanR> | the paper does pretty printing by choosing between different layouts of the same logical document, which is defined as flattening to the same line |
| 19:23:03 | <ski> | @type readLitChar |
| 19:23:04 | <lambdabot> | ReadS Char |
| 19:23:17 | <ski> | > readLitChar "\\^D" |
| 19:23:18 | <lambdabot> | [('\EOT',"")] |
| 19:23:27 | <EvanR> | so choices include where to omit the newline and pile things onto the same line, I think |
| 19:23:45 | <EvanR> | which works by just dropping the Line |
| 19:23:52 | <ski> | it does allow the "hanging" style, i assume |
| 19:24:03 | <ski> | (was years since i looked at these papers) |
| 19:24:07 | <EvanR> | I mean, dropping or replacing with a text " " |
| 19:25:10 | <EvanR> | hanging style? |
| 19:25:33 | <ski> | would be nice if it could be configured to use spaces, or tabs, or both (as in the link above, say), in a way that would display (and be interpreted by implementations) consistently & predictably |
| 19:25:38 | <ski> | foo = do |
| 19:25:40 | <ski> | blah |
| 19:26:25 | <ski> | body "hangs" from the end of the previous line |
| 19:26:28 | → | titibandit joins (~titibandi@xdsl-78-34-208-230.nc.de) |
| 19:26:41 | → | vorpuni joins (~pvorp@2001:861:3881:c690:ba0e:e680:831e:7c7b) |
| 19:27:15 | <EvanR> | yes that's the 2nd example for rendering Tree, it uses a fixed indentation instead of checking the length of the node header, which my version does |
| 19:27:34 | → | vn36 joins (~vn36@123.63.203.210) |
| 19:27:52 | <ski> | (also ekmett's remarks about wanting to eschew nested comments (at least in the present form), in the interest of being able to monoidally parse, in his video presentation of that, seems a bit relevant) |
| 19:28:09 | <EvanR> | nested comments, too hard! don't need! |
| 19:28:30 | <EvanR> | use your editor spam # everywhere |
| 19:28:59 | <EvanR> | (he drops nested and multiline comments) |
| 19:29:21 | <ski> | he had a perverse example like |
| 19:29:24 | <ski> | {- |
| 19:29:29 | <ski> | -- -} foo |
| 19:30:02 | <ski> | if you remove the `{-' (or add `-- ' in front of it), the `foo' disappears into a comment |
| 19:30:35 | <ski> | ("spooky action at a distance") |
| 19:30:52 | → | freeside joins (~mengwong@bb115-66-48-84.singnet.com.sg) |
| 19:31:34 | <EvanR> | you are automatically thinking about that monoidal parsing talk after thinking about wadler's pretty printer too xD |
| 19:31:57 | <EvanR> | notionally different subjects, seems similar |
| 19:32:02 | <monochrom> | monoidal pretty printing and monoidal parsing... |
| 19:32:39 | <EvanR> | I guess that's a good reason to keep the newline around |
| 19:32:40 | <geekosaur> | except that bidirectional parsing is also a thing |
| 19:33:23 | <monochrom> | Hey why was that not called bidirectional pretty printing heh |
| 19:34:01 | <EvanR> | need a word that means parsing and unparsing |
| 19:34:27 | <geekosaur> | or coparsing |
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| 19:34:42 | × | Tuplanolla quits (~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-34.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.) |
| 19:34:46 | ski | . o O ( `isSOF :: Parser Bool',`lookBehind :: Parser a -> Parser a' ) |
| 19:34:46 | × | Cerins quits (~Cerins@balticom-142-106-43.balticom.lv) (Quit: Leaving) |
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| 19:34:59 | × | freeside quits (~mengwong@bb115-66-48-84.singnet.com.sg) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 19:35:59 | <ski> | DCGs can do both from the same source. .. except that in practice (for various reasons), people typically use it for one, or the other |
| 19:37:31 | → | pavonia joins (~user@user/siracusa) |
| 19:38:17 | <ski> | (also GF generates both linearization and parsing, between abstract syntax, and a given concrete syntax, from the same `lincat' declarations) |
| 19:38:48 | × | codaraxis__ quits (~codaraxis@user/codaraxis) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 19:40:29 | <EvanR> | in the conversion from Tree to Doc (doc), I'm using named field puns to locally "import" the operations of the algebra. I can't tell if this is cool or terrible |
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| 19:41:19 | × | stiell_ quits (~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 19:41:41 | <ski> | one reason is that the grammar rules are sometimes not syntax-directed (in the AST sense used for static analysis, operational semantics, translations, ..), when parsing, specifically when handling left-factoring, left-recursion; while you do want syntax-directed for linearizing |
| 19:41:43 | <EvanR> | it's certainly not as noisy as I expected |
| 19:41:52 | → | stiell_ joins (~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell) |
| 19:42:19 | <ski> | another reason is optional parts like extra whitespace, redundant brackets. possibly syntactic sugar/salt |
| 19:43:24 | <ski> | EvanR : better than using `..' |
| 19:43:53 | × | eggplantade quits (~Eggplanta@104-55-37-220.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 19:44:51 | × | elbear quits (~lucian@188.24.138.239) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 19:44:53 | <ski> | anyway, record construction and update probably should allow declaration forms like `nest n d = nestStr n d' (with pattern-matching, multiple clauses, &c. ..) -- also probably `local'-`in'-`end' |
| 19:45:27 | <EvanR> | also I was worried this kind of code would be brittle in that you aren't guaranteed all the subroutines use the same implementation |
| 19:45:29 | × | zeenk quits (~zeenk@2a02:2f04:a20a:3e00:5712:52b0:ca1d:bc63) (Quit: Konversation terminated!) |
| 19:45:51 | <EvanR> | or are you, because of the polymorphic doc |
| 19:45:53 | <ski> | (and use `;' rather than `,' for separator .. but then, should there be a keyword after the data constructor for introducing the layout ?) |
| 19:46:17 | <ski> | subroutines ? |
| 19:46:33 | <EvanR> | showTree is based on 3 functions that take DocImpl doc |
| 19:46:47 | <EvanR> | mixing different implementations in the code here would be bad |
| 19:46:54 | <EvanR> | but is it even possible |
| 19:47:34 | ski | idly imagines three-dimensional code layout, in a cuboid of glyph cells |
| 19:48:17 | <EvanR> | 3D glyphs... that's beyond even the matrix |
| 19:49:06 | <darkling> | Sounds like an extension of Mondrian. :) |
| 19:50:09 | <ski> | (hmm, i guess i mean rectangular cuboid .. is there a shorter term ?) |
| 19:50:23 | × | vn36 quits (~vn36@123.63.203.210) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 19:50:48 | <EvanR> | brick |
| 19:50:51 | <darkling> | Cuboid. |
| 19:51:03 | <darkling> | A rectilinear shape that isn't a cube. |
| 19:51:26 | <EvanR> | a cube isn't also a cuboid then? That probably breaks OOP again |
| 19:51:33 | <ski> | apparently cuboid includes anything that has six faces which are quadrilateral, with arbitrary angles |
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| 19:51:53 | → | freeside joins (~mengwong@bb115-66-48-84.singnet.com.sg) |
| 19:52:04 | <EvanR> | brick it is |
| 19:52:24 | <monochrom> | I like brick. :) |
| 19:52:51 | <monochrom> | Topology has open balls and open bricks >:) |
| 19:54:02 | <ski> | (sure a cube is a cuboid .. but OO object types aren't really about subsets, but rather quotient sets (of records) .. and possibly pullbacks as well)) |
| 19:54:04 | <monochrom> | Hey does your 3D code layout have tensor strength? >:) |
| 19:54:37 | <EvanR> | or are they above liskov substitution xD |
| 19:54:40 | <EvanR> | about |
| 19:55:27 | <ski> | well, i almost said "anything topologically equivalent to a cube" .. but that doesn't work, as a space where we don't keep track of flags |
| 19:55:28 | → | vn36 joins (~vn36@123.63.203.210) |
| 19:55:29 | <monochrom> | Well it still has subtyping. |
| 19:56:21 | × | freeside quits (~mengwong@bb115-66-48-84.singnet.com.sg) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 19:56:23 | <ski> | sure, subtyping can encompass both subsets and quotient sets |
| 19:56:28 | <EvanR> | don't try to update one of the sides of a cuboid, it might be a cube |
| 19:57:16 | <ski> | (hm, there's a term for when you have subtyping with `O(0)' coercions .. but i can't recall it atm) |
| 19:59:05 | <monochrom> | upcasting? |
| 20:01:00 | <ski> | (hm, my mind tells me i might've seen it in some Xavier Leroy paper/slides, but i can't recall which) |
| 20:04:28 | <ski> | hm, i'm after the distinction between "inclusion" and "coercion", where the former is operationally a no-op, since it uses a representation which can be construed as being of the supertype. (i think the term may have started with "de") |
| 20:05:20 | <EvanR> | like even int can be freely casted to int |
| 20:06:51 | → | jakalx joins (~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) |
| 20:07:01 | <ski> | (similar to the distinction of implementing parametric polymorphism with type erasure (enabling reviewing a common representation), and a type-info-passing implementation. i'm also reminded of implicitly passing offsets / tags for record fields / variant alternatives, for light-weight records and variants, probably using rows) |
| 20:07:27 | × | takuan quits (~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 20:07:58 | <ski> | yes (and more importantly), `Map Foo EvenInt' could be treated as `Map Foo Int' (as long as `Map Foo a' is covariant in `a') |
| 20:09:58 | <ski> | (`EvenList' could be a refinement type of `List', declared something like `data EvenList a <: List a = Nil | Cons a (OddList a); data OddList a <: List a = Cons a (EvenList a)' .. this is a different version of "refinement types" that then subset types that e.g. LiquidHaskell uses) |
| 20:10:23 | <ski> | (s/subset types/subset comprehension types/) |
| 20:14:17 | <ski> | monochrom : remind me of what strength means in that context ? |
| 20:16:02 | ski | . o O ( open bricks in the taxi-cab metric/norm ) |
| 20:16:26 | → | tromp joins (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) |
| 20:19:11 | × | TonyStone quits (~TonyStone@cpe-74-76-51-197.nycap.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 20:20:23 | <ski> | hmm .. there should be a metric on an integral lattice space where the distance is always a natural number, defined in terms of integral diagonals with Pythagorean tuples .. |
| 20:20:50 | → | freeside joins (~mengwong@bb115-66-48-84.singnet.com.sg) |
| 20:21:46 | × | wonko quits (~wjc@2a0e:1c80:2:0:45:15:19:130) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 20:22:49 | × | wootehfoot quits (~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 20:24:33 | <EvanR> | what the heck is going on in this screenshot (tabs vs spaces post) http://dmwit.com/tabs/vim.png in the lower half there's obvious tabs, then in the upper half there tabs not aligning with the ones below |
| 20:25:04 | <ski> | .. every natural can be written as a sum of four squares. can every square be written nontrivially as a sum of two or three or four squares ? |
| 20:25:38 | <EvanR> | ok the tabs align, but there's missing tabs |
| 20:25:47 | <geekosaur> | EvanR, looks to me like it's aligning with spacing on the previous line. emacs text-mode does something similar although I don't think I've seen it in a programming mode |
| 20:26:28 | <ski> | EvanR : "tabs are for indenting, spaces are for aligmnment" |
| 20:26:43 | <ski> | EvanR : the spaces align with the "let " |
| 20:26:45 | <hpc> | EvanR: tab, spaces aligning with let (, tab for case |
| 20:27:11 | <EvanR> | but... where are the tabs, where are the spaces |
| 20:27:27 | <hpc> | there are four spaces, directly below "let " |
| 20:27:28 | <ski> | "\t \t..." |
| 20:27:37 | <hpc> | the four columns before the second '>' |
| 20:27:50 | <EvanR> | ok |
| 20:28:04 | <EvanR> | and then another tab, for reasons? |
| 20:28:13 | <hpc> | because there's a case it's indenting into |
| 20:28:30 | <hpc> | case expr of\n\tpat -> expr |
| 20:28:36 | <hpc> | but that whole thing indented by "\t " |
| 20:29:43 | <hpc> | that is a very confusing way to write code, and that notation for tabs technically makes it visible what's what but not really imo |
| 20:29:46 | <ski> | "Thirdly and hindmost: tabs and spaces are of incomparable width. A tab is not eight spaces. A tab is not four spaces. A tab is not two spaces. A tab does not jump to the next eight-character tabstop. There is not some number n such that tabs jump to the next column that is a multiple of n . .." |
| 20:29:51 | <ski> | ".. Tabs are not at least one space wide. Tabs do not even necessarily move to the right! There is simply nothing you can do with spaces to correctly align yourself with a tab character^‡. If you want to align things on two separate lines, and one line has a tab character as the n th character in the line, well, the other line will simply have to have a tab character as the n th character in the line, |
| 20:29:57 | <ski> | too." |
| 20:30:06 | <EvanR> | yeah read all that |
| 20:30:52 | <EvanR> | I'm almost inspired to use tabs xD |
| 20:31:07 | <EvanR> | and now I see the relevance to wadler |
| 20:31:30 | <ski> | they use spaces there to align with the `(w, h) = ...' declaration on the previous line (`let' starts layout. since this layout in this case starts after `let ', we have no choice but align with the `let ', before possibly indenting again) |
| 20:31:38 | <ski> | Wadler's law ? |
| 20:31:39 | × | coot quits (~coot@2a02:a310:e241:1b00:ec1a:e9df:79ac:66ba) (Quit: coot) |
| 20:31:49 | × | freeside quits (~mengwong@bb115-66-48-84.singnet.com.sg) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 20:32:07 | <EvanR> | the pretty printer paper |
| 20:32:18 | <hpc> | ski: can't be, there's no comments :P |
| 20:32:41 | <EvanR> | a lot pivots on the concept of indentation there, but there's no mention of tabs |
| 20:33:16 | <hpc> | honestly, the way i read that whole section is that there's no correct way to render a tab either |
| 20:33:26 | <hpc> | so putting one in your code is just asking for trouble |
| 20:34:12 | <ski> | @wiki Wadler's Law |
| 20:34:12 | <lambdabot> | https://wiki.haskell.org/Wadler's_Law |
| 20:35:30 | <ski> | EvanR : the simpler version (just using tabs, not spaces) is to always break line after a layout-introducing keyword followed by a block spanning more than one line |
| 20:36:41 | <ski> | EvanR : yea, hence i started thinking about a tabs-and-spaces aware/enabled pretty-printer, that gets this right (and is configurable to only spaces, only tabs, spaces-and-tabs) |
| 20:38:01 | <EvanR> | I started by being suspicious of a 'word' in the algebra that is basically a newline, and now we devolved into tabs vs space xD |
| 20:38:01 | <ski> | (anyway, regarding "brick" syntax, imagine being able to align your three-dimensional array both horizontally, vertically, and "depthly") |
| 20:38:17 | <EvanR> | so much for abstract document |
| 20:38:25 | <geekosaur> | at some point that becomes too much to track… |
| 20:39:13 | <ski> | alignment seems to be about wanting to view the document not as a linear string, but as two-dimensional (iow with commuting paths), in places |
| 20:40:13 | <EvanR> | I'd settle for something that solves in 2 dimensions if 3 is too much to ask |
| 20:40:31 | <EvanR> | unless there's a one liner that works in N dimensions |
| 20:40:52 | <hpc> | one-planer? |
| 20:41:11 | <ski> | .. i recall in an RPG game i played, i could enter into a screen for each character, containing "parallel" sections (only one shown at a time) for different "properties" .. and finding it annoying that if i navigated to the next/previous character (with another two buttons), it'd reset the section to the first section, rather than moving to the parallel one (as if i moved in a grid) |
| 20:41:14 | <EvanR> | if anyone says that there's a Z-tab I'm out |
| 20:42:29 | ski | . o O ( direct product vs. maybe semi-direct product, wreath product, .. hmm ) |
| 20:42:49 | <EvanR> | what was the structure of this rpg screen again? |
| 20:43:01 | <ski> | hm, structure ? |
| 20:43:06 | <EvanR> | i can't visualize it |
| 20:43:11 | <ski> | it was a dungeon crawler (on GameBoy) |
| 20:43:24 | <EvanR> | it was a document? or |
| 20:43:36 | <ski> | it had "properties" (for each character) like inventory, character stats, &c. |
| 20:44:16 | <ski> | (well, GameBoy Advance, i think .. or maybe it was DS .. can't recall) |
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| 20:46:00 | <ski> | (idea of commuting paths also turns up if you want to `unfoldr' (or dynamically program) a double recurrence, like e.g. Pascal's triangle / binomial coefficients) |
| 20:46:43 | <ski> | (ok, it ws GBA as i thought) |
| 20:48:10 | <ski> | "The game received moderately negative reviews compared to the original computer game. It was given a 41% rating by NGC Magazine, criticizing it for its slow pace between exploration and combat, its bad interface and confusing menus , while highlighting only its variety of spells and character customization, that give the game some level of depth." (my emph.) |
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| 20:48:53 | <EvanR> | so like you scroll down to the inventory page for character A, scroll right and it goes to not the inventory of character B? |
| 20:49:02 | <ski> | yep, basically |
| 20:50:12 | <ski> | like whenever you moved in a text editor to another line, it would move to the start of the line. or even just not restore the current column level when you moved down/up to a line of suffficient length |
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| 20:51:11 | <hpc> | sounds like notepad |
| 20:51:24 | <hpc> | if you have word wrap on in older versions, sometimes when you save the cursor moves |
| 20:51:26 | <ski> | (some older IDEs, like Commodore 64 screen editor (e.g. for BASIC), and Borland Turbo C simply allowed you to position yourself past "the end" of a line, making it more transparent, inserting spaces (or maybe configurable to tabs, for the latter), if you inserted any non-blank) |
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| 20:52:02 | <ski> | yea .. have done my share of editing in Notpad, loading in WinHugs :) |
| 20:52:30 | <EvanR> | might as well allow going before the first line, and left of the beginning of line. Complete the plane |
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| 20:53:01 | <EvanR> | I could use that space left of the line for all kind of things |
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| 20:53:47 | <ski> | @where Vital |
| 20:53:47 | <lambdabot> | "Vital is a document-centered implementation of Haskell","The Vital project (acronym: Visual Interactive Typed Applicative Language) is investigating a /document-centered/ approach to functional |
| 20:53:47 | <lambdabot> | programming with an emphasis on the display and /direct manipulation/ of complex data structures." (cf. spreadsheets) <http://www.cs.kent.ac.uk/projects/vital/>,<https://web.archive.org/web/2009052901 |
| 20:53:47 | <lambdabot> | 0107/http://www.cs.kent.ac.uk:80/projects/vital/> |
| 20:54:58 | <EvanR> | the link being broken, literally |
| 20:55:39 | <EvanR> | we can rebuild it https://web.archive.org/web/20090529010107/http://www.cs.kent.ac.uk:80/projects/vital/ |
| 20:56:28 | <ski> | EvanR : would it be one-point/Alexandroff completion, or Stone–Čech ? |
| 20:56:59 | <EvanR> | do those support unicode? |
| 20:57:19 | <ski> | hm .. i dunno about completion of unicode plane |
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| 21:00:38 | <ski> | hpc : oh, and yea .. visual line move (like `line-move-visual' being on in Emacs) annoys me. if i move up or down, i want to move to corresponding column positions of logical (physical ?) lines, not to apparent corresponding positions on my current display with some long lines wrapped .. |
| 21:00:56 | ← | jakalx parts (~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) (Error from remote client) |
| 21:02:03 | <dolio> | That's helpfully telling you to make your lines shorter. :) |
| 21:02:38 | <ski> | yea i know .. but sometimes that's sadly not practical |
| 21:03:06 | <EvanR> | if you need your long lines to fit on the screen, that calls for a hyberpolic plane |
| 21:03:18 | <EvanR> | hyperbolic! |
| 21:03:33 | ski | typically tries to keep lines at most `80' columns, and pages at most `66' lines |
| 21:03:34 | <hpc> | ski: vim does it the way you want |
| 21:03:56 | <hpc> | same with block moves, they remain rectangular as if you had an infinitely wide screen |
| 21:04:09 | <ski> | yea, Emacs does as well, when i club it with `(setq line-move-visual nil)' |
| 21:04:59 | <ski> | (i just happened to use a machine lately where i'd not added that to `$HOME/.emacs', is why i recalled it now) |
| 21:05:59 | <ski> | EvanR : hmm .. |
| 21:06:11 | ski | tries to imagine a hyperbolic plane code explorer |
| 21:06:42 | <EvanR> | it would mess this up though https://i.imgur.com/ryt16xg.png |
| 21:07:03 | ski | . o O ( zipper for graphs, possibly `n'-categories ) |
| 21:07:20 | <EvanR> | suddenly you can't rely on the finite screen area to limit the demand of infinite objects |
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| 21:08:06 | <ski> | well, at some point you get low enough resolution that you can stop anyway ? |
| 21:08:10 | <EvanR> | ok ok you can stop when it is determined there's not enough DPI at the edge to read anything, or not enough DPI in the user's vision, which ever fails first |
| 21:09:39 | ski | . o O ( "Why program with continuous time?" by conal in 2010-01-02 at <http://conal.net/blog/posts/why-program-with-continuous-time> ) |
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| 21:33:30 | ski | . o O ( zipper for graphs ) |
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| 22:07:46 | <monochrom> | You know, hyperbolic geometry display goes well with hyperbolic time. For example, if you compute and print an infinite list, you throttle the computation so the nth item is put on hold for Theta(n) seconds. |
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| 22:10:31 | <monochrom> | This is known as Anti-de Sitter space-time and enjoys the AdS/CFT holographic principle >:) |
| 22:11:00 | <EvanR> | a clever and useful implementation of that would, as soon as you press enter, begin uniform acceleration of the user toward andromeda galaxy |
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| 22:11:26 | <EvanR> | time dilation would fix the infinite list and travel time to the destination in one shot |
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| 22:16:04 | <EvanR> | holographic graphics would be good though |
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| 23:48:43 | <Clinton[m]> | This is kinda a vague question, looking for a bit of guidance.... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/4e1475f4ab3bf82a4ff1628027b957b8521a02d6>) |
| 23:49:19 | <EvanR> | this ADT is found in GHC.Data.Bag https://paste.tomsmeding.com/KaoyLc6x I was wondering if there is any source literature on it somewhere |
| 23:50:04 | <Axman6> | Clinton[m]: I'm not sure you want that instance, but aren't you basically looking at bmap . bmap? |
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| 23:51:38 | <ski> | @kind ReaderT |
| 23:51:38 | <lambdabot> | * -> (* -> *) -> * -> * |
| 23:51:56 | <ski> | Clinton[m] : you have a kind error |
| 23:51:58 | <Axman6> | hmm, yeah doesn't quite work |
| 23:54:05 | <Clinton[m]> | Yeah, I know the instance doesn't work, as the `\x -> ...` syntax isn't valid. |
| 23:55:14 | <EvanR> | what would the type of the thing be |
| 23:55:29 | <Clinton[m]> | but the vibe is I think it does, if `x :: (Type -> Type) -> Type`. |
| 23:55:30 | <ski> | ah, i'm sorry, i'm mistaken .. your `x' has kind `k -> Type' (well, `k' is forced to be `Type' by `ReaderT') |
| 23:55:52 | <ski> | but yea, you can't use type-level lambdas |
| 23:55:54 | <Clinton[m]> | s///, s/k/Type/, s/// |
| 23:56:38 | <Clinton[m]> | edited now for simplicity, I just copied it from the hackage package |
| 23:57:00 | <ski> | you could try using `instance FunctorB t => FunctorB (Compose t (ReaderT r))' |
| 23:57:52 | <ski> | hmm |
| 23:57:58 | <Clinton[m]> | ski: oh that could work... |
| 23:58:08 | <ski> | yea, but i'm not sure it's a that good idea |
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