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Logs on 2022-10-14 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:00:19 <Clinton[m]> @ski ohh that instance already exists :) https://hackage.haskell.org/package/barbies-2.0.3.1/docs/Data-Functor-Barbie.html#t:FunctorB
00:00:19 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: wiki src ask
00:00:28 <ski> it's usually not that good to make instances for `Compose f g', for more specific types (not tyvars) in place of `f' and `g', i think
00:01:01 <ski> because then someone else might want to have another instance for another `f' or another `g', or both .. when does it stop ?
00:01:14 <ski> better is to try to be general, if possible/reasonable
00:02:34 <ski> .. or, if you have `Compose F g', you could define `FOf g a' to be `F (g a)', and make an instance for `FOf g' .. or if you have `Compose f G', you could define `OfG f a' to be `f (G a)', and make an instance for `OfG f'
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00:04:54 <ski> this is, btw, what several of the monad transformers are. `ReaderT r m a' is `(r ->) (m a)', iow `Compose (Reader r) m'. `WriterT w m a' is `m (w,a)' (modulo annoying ordering), which is `Compose m (Writer w a)'
00:06:40 <ski> (i wsa thrown off by the naming of `x' earlier, i think)
00:08:22 <ski> .. hm, i guess what you want here is a monad transformer transformer ?
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00:11:48 <ski> you want a `ReaderTT r t m a' that amounts to `t (ReaderT r m) a. so given a monad transformer `t' (mapping arbitrary monads `m' to monads `t m'), you get another monad transformer `ReaderTT r t', which maps arbitrary monads `m' to `ReaderTT r t m', amounting to `t (ReaderT r m)', letting `t' decide on which monadic result type the monad `ReaderT r m' is applied
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00:13:48 <ski> hmm
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00:17:23 <ski> no, this isn't quite right
00:18:05 <Clinton[m]> ski I am still reading and thinking :)
00:18:15 <ski> `ReaderT r m' is a monad. `t' maps this to a concrete, not to a monad
00:18:47 <ski> this means that `ReaderTT' (if we should call it that), has kind `Type -> (Type -> Type) -> Type', not `Type -> (Type -> Type) -> (Type -> Type)'
00:19:05 <ski> hm .. need another naming
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00:20:15 <ski> (anyway, `t' doesn't accept a "monadic result type" to apply the monad transformer it takes as input to. it just applies it to some privately chosen type(s))
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00:20:52 <ski> s/concrete/concrete type/
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00:33:57 <ski> hm .. not sure what to call it, let's say `OfReaderT r t m' for the time being .. being `t (ReaderT r m)'. so you want `instance FunctorB t => FunctorB (OfReaderT r t)'
00:37:44 <ski> so you go `bmap f (MkOfReaderT trm) = MkOfReaderT (bmap (hoist f) trm)'
00:40:23 <ski> `f' has type `forall a. m a -> n a', so `hoist f' has type `forall a. ReaderT r m a -> ReaderT r n a', so `bmap (hoist f)' has type `t (ReaderT r m) -> t (ReaderT r n)', and with `trm' of type `t (ReaderT r m)', `bmap (hoist f) trm' has type `t (ReaderT r n)', and so `bmap f' transforms `OfReaderT r t m' to `OfReaderT r t n' as required
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00:42:46 <ski> one could wonder if we could use `mapReaderT' in place of `hoist' .. well, `mapReaderT f' would have type `ReaderT r m x -> ReaderT r n x' (with *no* `forall x.' ! .. `mapReaderT' isn't rank-2. so we have to pick a type (`x' before), choose `a' and `b' in the type of `f' to be this type `x', and then `mapReaderT f' is *not* polymorphic !)
00:43:23 <ski> .. and so we can't pass `mapReaderT f' to `bmap', since it *is* rank-2, demands a polymorphic argument
00:43:55 <ski> (at first i was thinking we could use either of them. but apparently only `hoist' works here)
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00:53:36 <ski> (i guess you could phrase it as `bmap f = MkOfReaderT . bmap (hoist f) . runOfReaderT' .. assuming `newtype OfReaderT r t m = MkOfReaderT {runOfReaderT :: t (ReaderT r m)}')
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00:54:01 <Clinton[m]> ski: I've got this:... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/fcf9bf1dbd0cc55f868a0ee83dfc89f039fb1e82>)
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00:56:02 <ski> hmm .. anyway, since `mapReaderT' is out of the picture, we could try to generalize from `b (ReaderT r m)' to `b (t m)' (renamed `t' |-> `b', so i can use `t' for arbitrary monad transformer)
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00:56:55 <ski> so, we have a composition `b . t' where `b :: (Type -> Type) -> Type' and `t :: (Type -> Type) -> (Type -> Type)'
00:57:28 <Clinton[m]> Ah, I guess that could work...
00:59:54 <ski> i guess we could now have `instance (FunctorB b,MonadTrans t) => FunctorB (Compose b t)' .. now this is fully general, not a specialized version (apart from using `Compose :: ((Type -> Type) -> Type) -> ((Type -> Type) -> (Type -> Type)) -> ((Type -> Type) -> Type)', rather than the general `(k1 -> Type) -> (k0 -> k1) -> (k0 -> Type)')
01:00:34 <ski> so, this is actually `FunctorB (Compose @(Type -> Type) @(Type -> Type) b t)'
01:00:35 <Clinton[m]> ski: at some point I'll make a PR request to `barbies` so that you can `derive (Generic, FunctorB)` from a type like:... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/e64ea5d02680e7239b030c7e56a7d5fb912711eb>)
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01:01:59 <ski> @hoogle hoist
01:02:00 <lambdabot> Pipes hoist :: (MFunctor t, Monad m) => (forall a . () => m a -> n a) -> t m b -> t n b
01:02:00 <lambdabot> Control.Monad.Morph hoist :: (MFunctor t, Monad m) => (forall a . m a -> n a) -> t m b -> t n b
01:02:00 <lambdabot> Streaming hoist :: (MFunctor t, Monad m) => (forall a . () => m a -> n a) -> t m b -> t n b
01:03:10 <ski> Clinton[m] : your `TransformerFunctor' looks similar to `MFunctor' (except that one provides the implementor of `hoist' with evidence for `Monad m', while your `TransformerFunctor' doesn't do that for `tfmap')
01:03:52 <MrsGenius> Hello
01:03:53 <ski> hmm
01:03:58 <ski> hello MrsGenius
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01:04:19 ski 's still kinda distracted .. so's replying somewhat slowly
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01:05:17 <ski> rethinking the previous, now i'm wondering if `mapReaderT' would work, anyway
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01:05:52 <ski> mapReaderT :: forall a b. (m a -> n b) -> ReaderT r m a -> ReaderT r n b
01:06:02 <ski> f :: forall c. m c -> n c
01:06:11 <ski> f :: m d -> n d
01:06:23 <ski> mapReaderT :: (m d -> n d) -> ReaderT r m d -> ReaderT r n d
01:06:33 <ski> mapReaderT f :: ReaderT r m d -> ReaderT r n d
01:06:45 <ski> mapReaderT f :: forall d. ReaderT r m d -> ReaderT r n d
01:07:18 <ski> basically, we can go from `forall a. Foo a -> Bar a' to `(forall a. Foo a) -> (forall a. Bar a)'
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01:10:08 <ski> hm, right, not sure why i didn't realize `x' was generalizable before. we don't pick a particular `x', but rather "pick" the one that we're provided by `bmap :: (forall x. f x -> g x) -> b f -> b g' (the one we're calling) for it's argument (`hoist f' / `mapReaderT f')
01:10:53 <ski> so, the point is that, while `mapReaderT' is more general, we can get its type to look like the type of `hoist'
01:11:52 <ski> Clinton[m] : hm, do you have a record with multiple fields like that ?
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02:00:05 <Clinton[m]> ski: I'm not sure what you're getting at... are you addressing the issue about us not being about to use `hoist` because `bmap` doesn't require the transformation source to be a Monad?
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03:45:41 <chymera> hi guys, any idea how I can convert "%" characters in strings to "%25" or "&" to "%26"? This is needed for URIs apparently... is this the correct package? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/uri-encode-1.5.0.6/docs/Network-URI-Encode.html
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03:46:49 <EvanR> you can try the functions in that package in ghci, like > encode "30% off"
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04:50:41 <ski> Clinton[m] : well, i was addressing that you could after all use `mapReaderT' in place of `hoist' (although only the latter was generalizable). but then i wondered about your `Blah' record in your last "paste", with fields `blah1',`blah2', wondering what you'd use it for
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05:08:15 <jonathanx> I spend way too much time removing imports suggested by --pedantic. Is there a way to quickly remove all redundant imports? I'm usin HLS/vscode
05:08:50 <probie> Doesn't HLS highlight them for you?
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05:15:21 <ski> hm, someone recently showed some script to maximize and minimize Haskell imports, in here ..
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05:27:52 <geekosaur> Sep 29 13:01:02 <DigitalKiwi> https://mostlyabsurd.com/posts/2019/06/03/minimal-imports-maximal-imports/
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06:25:14 <ski> ty
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06:50:37 <talismanick> Has anyone used the manifolds package? How is it?
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07:25:44 <tomsmeding> EvanR: is the point of that 'Bag' to provide a data structure that can has O(1) append, O(1) fromList and O(n) toList? Because in that case I've reinvented it multiple times already :p
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07:30:09 <tomsmeding> dminuoso: O.o lemme debug
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07:52:07 <talismanick> Bag, like a multiset?
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07:53:53 <tomsmeding> talismanick: EvanR sent this link https://paste.tomsmeding.com/KaoyLc6x
07:54:51 <tomsmeding> % :set -XNoMonomorphismRestriction
07:54:51 <yahb2> <no output>
07:54:57 <tomsmeding> dminuoso: fixed
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08:00:55 <dminuoso> % f :: Num a => a -> a -> a; g :: Num a => a -> a -> a; (f,g) = ((+),(-)
08:00:55 <yahb2> <interactive>:30:71: error: ; parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
08:01:00 <dminuoso> % f :: Num a => a -> a -> a; g :: Num a => a -> a -> a; (f,g) = ((+),(-))
08:01:00 <yahb2> <interactive>:32:1: error: ; Overloaded signature conflicts with monomorphism restriction ; f :: forall a. Num a => a -> a -> a
08:01:10 <dminuoso> Here we go. This is a fun and probably little known bit. :)
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08:03:45 <tomsmeding> huh. So this is _without_ monores.
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08:04:21 <tomsmeding> ah no, it's with monores
08:04:28 <dminuoso> Yeah
08:04:34 <dminuoso> Sorry, I had enabled it behind the scenes.
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08:04:47 <dminuoso> The surprising bit is the restriction despite f and g being annotated.
08:05:05 <tomsmeding> funny, and it works when the bindings for f and g are simple function bindings instead of via a non-trivial pattern
08:05:27 <tomsmeding> yeah this is somewhat surprising
08:05:27 <dminuoso> Yup, its exactly that non-trivial pattern that makes the difference.
08:05:35 <dminuoso> There's good and subtle reasons for this
08:06:03 <tomsmeding> yeah it sort of makes sense after the fact, but I wouldn't have naively predicted it
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08:07:11 <tomsmeding> by the way the problem with yahb2 was that apparently ghc needs /tmp nowadays, and my container script gave it no /tmp
08:07:13 <tomsmeding> :p
08:07:19 <tomsmeding> not sure what changed
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08:27:01 <dminuoso> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bytestring-0.11.3.1/docs/Data-ByteString-Builder-Prim.html#t:FixedPrim
08:27:04 <dminuoso> This module is so lovely. :)
08:27:19 <dminuoso> data FixedPrim a = FP {-# UNPACK #-} !Int (a -> Ptr Word8 -> IO ())
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08:28:28 <dminuoso> Absolutely love this, as its incredibly reusable.
08:28:48 <tomsmeding> nice
08:28:58 <tomsmeding> very general
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08:31:32 <dminuoso> In the new Put monad Im building, Ill just unsafePerformIO myself a buffer via mallocForeignPtrBytes, and then just unpack these primitives from bytestring.
08:31:40 <dminuoso> And poke them directly in there
08:31:57 <dminuoso> And since each FixedPrim already has length available too, bound checking is trivial too
08:32:18 <dminuoso> And at the end Ill just unsafely construct a ByteString from the ForeignPtr directly
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08:42:11 <dr_merijn> dminuoso: High five!
08:42:58 <dr_merijn> dminuoso: Have you ever really lived until you abuse Haskell to type pun ByteString into vectors and vice versa? ;)
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11:19:43 <Guest6> Hello. I'm facing an issue, if somebody can help :
11:19:44 <Guest6> I use this function from a library :
11:19:44 <Guest6> access :: MonadIO m => Pipe -> AccessMode -> Database -> Action m a -> m a
11:19:45 <Guest6> I would like to pass some of its parameters, then passing the result to another functions so they can pass the last parameter themselves :
11:19:45 <Guest6> example =
11:19:46 <Guest6>   let access_ = access pipe UnconfirmedWrites "dbName"
11:19:46 <Guest6>   someOtherFunc access_
11:19:47 <Guest6> someOtherFunc :: (Action m a -> m a) -> IO ()
11:19:47 <Guest6> someOtherFunc access_ = access_ something
11:19:48 <Guest6> But i dont achieve to type someOtherFunc signature properly.
11:19:48 <Guest6> the compiler want me to replace "a" by a specific type which would not work on every access_ usages
11:20:12 <Guest6>  Couldn't match type ‘a’ with ‘Value’
11:20:13 <Guest6>       Expected: Action m a
11:20:13 <Guest6>         Actual: Action m Value
11:20:14 <Guest6>       ‘a’ is a rigid type variable bound by
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11:22:57 <kuribas> Guest6: use a pastebin
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11:30:40 <Guest6> kuribas https://pastebin.com/ZeaECyZD
11:32:38 <kuribas> Guest6: maybe you want a RankN function?
11:32:52 <kuribas> for example (forall a. Action m a - > m a)
11:33:57 <kuribas> normally the a is scoped to the function signature, so it is bound to a single value.
11:34:15 <kuribas> with a forall it is scoped to the passed function, so you can pass it different values.
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11:35:50 <kuribas> https://wiki.haskell.org/Rank-N_types
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11:43:26 <Guest6> kuribas it seems that is solving my issue indeed, thanks !
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11:47:21 <kuribas> you're welcome :)
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11:56:35 <dminuoso> Error: bytecode compiler can't handle unboxed tuples and sums.
11:56:38 <dminuoso> Nooo!
11:56:47 <dminuoso> My evil cunning plans all collapsed.
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11:59:06 <tomsmeding> dminuoso: wasn't that improved in one of the later ghc releases
12:00:29 <dminuoso> Mmm Im on 9.0.2 already
12:00:44 <dminuoso> It would definitely be nice, as the cabal build/test flow is just a bit cumbersome
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12:00:53 <dminuoso> `cabal repl` is really nice
12:02:26 <Axman6> Guest6: Welcome to the world of RankNTypes!
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12:04:17 <Guest6> Axman6 the more i learn about haskell the more my language extension lists grow !
12:04:56 <Axman6> This is the way
12:05:18 <Axman6> I kinda want a t-shirt that says "Today is a Good Day to Learn About RankNTypes"
12:05:29 <tomsmeding> dminuoso: "later" meaning 9.4 or so, do you have a small test case?
12:05:32 <Axman6> but instead, I need to go to sleep
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12:06:30 <tomsmeding> dminuoso: seems to work in 9.2.3
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12:06:41 <dminuoso> tomsmeding: a = (# 'a' #)
12:06:41 <tomsmeding> % :set -XUnboxedTuples
12:06:41 <yahb2> <no output>
12:06:52 <tomsmeding> % f :: (# Int, Int #) -> () ; f _ = ()
12:06:52 <yahb2> Error: bytecode compiler can't handle unboxed tuples and sums. ; Possibly due to foreign import/export decls in source. ; Workaround: use -fobject-code, or compile this module to .o separately.
12:06:54 <tomsmeding> :(
12:07:01 <dminuoso> What version does yahb2 run on?
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12:07:31 <dminuoso> Its interesting that (# Int #) is accepted by the way. :p
12:07:42 <dminuoso> Heck, even unboxed unit is admissable
12:07:53 <tomsmeding> dminuoso: yahb2 is 8.10.7
12:07:54 <dminuoso> % f :: (# #) -> (); f _ = ()
12:07:54 <yahb2> <no output>
12:08:12 <dminuoso> Im unsure why an unboxed unit is useful, but it feels symmetric.
12:08:22 <tomsmeding> 🤔
12:08:32 <dminuoso> WEll I guess it allows things like IO to be compiled to something without overhead
12:08:57 <tomsmeding> isn't the point of unboxed unit that it takes _zero_ space instead of constant space?
12:09:01 <Guest6> Axman6 are rankntypes particularly important ?
12:09:05 <dminuoso> But that uses State#, which we could pretend to be (##) with a phantom type
12:09:12 <dminuoso> tomsmeding: well guaranteed zero space.
12:09:25 <dminuoso> I suppose unit might be elided in some cases too
12:09:31 <hpc> it's like a void-returning function in C
12:09:41 <tomsmeding> probably, but in a data type it's I think a full pointer
12:10:10 <dminuoso> hpc: How would you construct `f :: Int -> (# #)` then?
12:10:19 <dminuoso> Im not sure the comparison really holds, because you cant do that
12:11:06 <dminuoso> `newtype IO a = IO (State# RealWorld -> (# State# RealWorld, a #))`
12:11:23 <dminuoso> In this it makes sense, as its just a vehicle to drag a phantom type through, and provide some magical tokens that have no runtime representation
12:11:32 <dminuoso> But State# is apparently deeply magical
12:11:43 <dminuoso> (Isomorphic to (##) though as far as I can tell)
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12:13:06 <tomsmeding> is it useful for yahb2 to be on a more recent compiler
12:13:50 <dminuoso> Sure, how else could I procastinate with unboxed tuples on IRC?
12:14:01 <tomsmeding> oh hey 9.2.4 is now recommended in ghcup!!!
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12:19:15 <merijn> Guest6: Not super, but OTOH, it's also not super complex
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12:20:53 <tomsmeding> % :q
12:20:53 <yahb2> <no output>
12:20:58 <tomsmeding> % :set -XUnboxedTuples
12:20:58 <yahb2> <no output>
12:21:05 <tomsmeding> % f :: (# Int, Int #) -> () ; f _ = ()
12:21:05 <yahb2> <no output>
12:21:12 <tomsmeding> dminuoso: 9.2.4 now :)
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12:25:08 <dminuoso> Sweet, thank you
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12:40:38 <edrx> hi all! anyone knows/remembers any recent paper that uses box diagrams like the one at the bottom of this file? http://angg.twu.net/HASKELL/State1.hs.html
12:41:28 <edrx> oops, I forgot to mention: on arxiv, or in some other place that makes the sources available...
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12:43:00 <edrx> I finally found a way to change Tikz diagrams bit by bit from a REPL, and I would like to see if I can start with the source in Tikz for a box diagram like that an modify it
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12:49:19 <edrx> aah, there's one in Fong & Spivak: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1803.05316.pdf#page=4
12:49:23 <edrx> sorry for the noise =)
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12:52:16 <edrx> even better: https://github.com/appliedcategorytheory/TikZWD
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14:15:08 <ski> edrx : (not papers, but) possibly Bartosz Milewski uses such diagrams, not sure. there's also the somewhat related "railroad" diagrams, for `Maybe'/`Either'
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14:26:24 <edrx> ski: where can I find examples of these railroad diagrams?
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14:28:22 <Guest|60> sorry i am confused how do i start the download of Haskell?
14:28:46 <Guest|60> i copy and paste the command line prompt from the website but it gives me an error
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14:32:35 <[exa]> Guest|60: what is your system and from which website do you copypaste the command?
14:32:54 <[exa]> (also, ideally, what is the error :D )
14:33:12 <Guest|60> https://www.haskell.org/downloads/
14:33:24 <Guest|60> Set-ExecutionPolicy Bypass -Scope Process -Force;[System.Net.ServicePointManager]::SecurityProtocol = [System.Net.ServicePointManager]::SecurityProtocol -bor 3072;Invoke-Command -ScriptBlock ([ScriptBlock]::Create((Invoke-WebRequest https://www.haskell.org/ghcup/sh/bootstrap-haskell.ps1 -UseBasicParsing))) -ArgumentList $true
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14:34:10 <[exa]> that's some kind of windows and powershell?
14:34:26 <Guest|60> 'Set-ExecutionPolicy' is not recognized as an internal or external command,
14:34:26 <Guest|60> operable program or batch file.
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14:34:33 <Guest|60> yes windows
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14:34:53 <Guest|60> i typed it into the command prompt
14:35:44 <ski> you probably need to open a PowerShell, not an ordinary Command window (or `<Windows>-r')
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14:36:57 <[exa]> Guest|60: I didn't touch windows for like 15 years now so I really don't know, but there are many windows users around, so if you wait they will surely give some advice
14:37:02 <Guest|60> thank you that was the issue
14:37:07 <[exa]> ah nice. :]
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17:57:22 <geekosaur> if I do this again, will I end up with three bugs, or four? 😛
17:57:32 <geekosaur> oh, wrong channel
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18:12:46 <EvanR> tomsmeding, I'm guessing it's mainly for claiming to have O(1) ++
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18:12:55 <tomsmeding> EvanR: right
18:13:07 <tomsmeding> though O(1) fromList is kinda necessary for the O(1) ++ to be useful ;)
18:13:48 <EvanR> I see line 5 does that, cool.
18:14:04 <EvanR> I found this after not being able to remember where I saw some whole thing about the data type
18:14:25 <EvanR> data Bag a = Nil | Node a | Bag a :<> Bag a, or something
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18:14:34 <EvanR> and how it's so great it's used in ghc
18:14:41 <tomsmeding> right, same idea but without the ListBag
18:14:56 <tomsmeding> in my usecases for the type I've not yet needed the listbag constructor
18:17:09 <EvanR> did you mean O(1) toList
18:17:14 <EvanR> because that would be interesting
18:17:34 <tomsmeding> it's impossible to have O(1) (++) _and_ O(1) toList
18:17:36 <tomsmeding> :p
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18:18:02 <tomsmeding> O(n) toList is the best you're going to get I think
18:18:06 <EvanR> cetacean needed
18:18:11 <tomsmeding> yeah
18:18:20 <tomsmeding> classical difference lists also have O(n) toList
18:18:37 <EvanR> or just push onto a list and reverse it
18:18:46 <tomsmeding> but I'm not sure O(n) toList is so bad; after all, you also needed to do n work to build the thing :)
18:20:05 <EvanR> so no idea where the OG paper on Bag is? xD
18:20:14 <tomsmeding> does there need to be a paper on Bag?
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18:20:22 <tomsmeding> as I said, I independently reinvented it multiple times :p
18:21:12 <EvanR> is it understandable, yes. Does it work, yes. What's the history, etymology, where was it used or first used with this name, other details, it's not obvious just from looking at the paste xD
18:21:24 <tomsmeding> right :p
18:21:45 <tomsmeding> "where was it first used" is bound to be a question that some people are working on to make easier to answer
18:22:00 <tomsmeding> recently I learned of the existence of a conference called "Mining Software Repositories"
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18:22:18 <tomsmeding> if that exists, research to code "etymology" is bound to also exist
18:22:53 <EvanR> I guess mainly I thought I might run into the article I may have remembered
18:23:13 <EvanR> seems like something you'd see in a functional hacker zine
18:23:39 <tomsmeding> it's also something that wouldn't be out of place in a functional pearl about something
18:23:49 <tomsmeding> but probably not the main point :p
18:24:15 <EvanR> light weight stupid functional tricks
18:24:35 <tomsmeding> they're the best though
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18:29:14 <tomsmeding> difference may be more "elegant" in some sense, but Bag is easier to understand
18:29:18 <tomsmeding> *difference lists
18:30:13 <tomsmeding> actually I can argue that they're both elegant in their own way
18:30:18 <EvanR> DList has more blind faith xD
18:30:31 <tomsmeding> difference lists is Cayley-transformation, Bag is mapping into the free monoid
18:30:40 <EvanR> Bag has the flaws made obvious
18:31:24 <EvanR> what's "the math" for cons onto a list and finally reversing it xD
18:31:53 <tomsmeding> you mean wanting to construct a list front-to-back, and instead constructing the reverse back-to-front and then reversing it?
18:32:09 <tomsmeding> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
18:32:21 <EvanR> "the math" name to make it sound better xD
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18:32:46 <tomsmeding> not sure this has a nice algebraic generalisation
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18:34:48 <EvanR> the problem itself doesn't seem very algebraic at first. Because it involves the technical difficulties of haskell not being able to (easily?) remember the end of an unfinished list and append to it
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18:35:25 <tomsmeding> it's not quite that you're not able to _remember_ the end
18:35:31 <tomsmeding> you can: you can just keep a reference to it
18:35:41 <tomsmeding> but that doesn't help you, because you'd like to mutate it in place
18:35:49 <tomsmeding> in a sense
18:36:14 <EvanR> which is what the usual evaluation of a list does behind the scenes, and dlist is one way to manage it
18:36:28 <tomsmeding> what, the mutation?
18:36:33 <tomsmeding> there's no mutation in dlist :p
18:36:39 <EvanR> expressing "the end of this list"
18:36:41 <tomsmeding> no
18:36:51 <tomsmeding> you know that newtype DList a = DList ([a] -> [a]) ?
18:36:54 <EvanR> the rest of this list
18:37:08 <EvanR> yeah I got that, my words are just messed up
18:37:15 <EvanR> which will happen if you mix levels in haskell
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18:37:27 <tomsmeding> instead of keeping a _reference_ to the end of the list, you're kind of not having an end at all -- you're producing a function that _takes_ the end and then tucks it in place
18:37:42 <EvanR> references to thunks being overwritten with new references to the answer
18:37:55 <tomsmeding> oh in that sense
18:38:05 <tomsmeding> still, untrue, I think
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18:38:15 <tomsmeding> it's not that the end is a thunk that's later replaced with the rest
18:38:15 <c_wraith> nah, it's true enough
18:38:33 <tomsmeding> though I guess everything in haskell can be seen in that light if you squint hard enough :P
18:38:34 <EvanR> for the task of appending to the end of a list, whether it mutates like that or explicitly really doens't matter
18:38:37 <c_wraith> Once you realize it with toList, anyway, you get a huge pile of thunks
18:38:45 <tomsmeding> yeah sure
18:38:46 <davean> Its actually the target that is rewritten
18:39:04 <EvanR> makes more sense
18:39:11 <EvanR> so you don't need to update all the references
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18:40:40 <davean> Look up "blackholing"
18:41:20 <davean> This is critical to understanding how GHC performance and non-strictness behaves
18:41:28 <EvanR> another way to get the same effect is unsafePerformIOing each node onto the end of a list, which reads from a Var somewhere, that some thread is writing to xD
18:41:39 <c_wraith> Here's the funny thing about DList: I've re-invented it myself, before I even knew it was a common thing. "Huh, if I pass around a function that applies a prefix to a list, I don't need a separate reverse step"
18:42:12 <c_wraith> EvanR: if you leave out the unsafePerformIO part, that's essentially what Chan gives you
18:42:39 <EvanR> yeah reading from a Char is great
18:42:46 <EvanR> Chan
18:43:03 <EvanR> though it requires IO
18:43:04 <c_wraith> ... also, toList on Chan actually does do the unsafeInterleaveIO stuff
18:43:15 <davean> EvanR: It doesn't!
18:43:25 <EvanR> :thonk:
18:43:30 <davean> You can access it as a lazy list
18:43:42 <c_wraith> you still need IO to write to it
18:43:58 <davean> To write, not read
18:44:04 <EvanR> that's fine. Actually that's a drop in replacement for my stupid idea
18:44:21 <c_wraith> that's why I brought it up. :P
18:44:30 <c_wraith> let someone else write all that fragile code!
18:45:17 <EvanR> now to race that wild scheme with Bag or DList or cons-onto-list-backwards-then-reverse-it
18:45:24 <EvanR> for the same purpose
18:45:42 <EvanR> (which Bag devolves into)
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19:19:07 <dminuoso> Does quickcheck have some way to express `a === b === c`?
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19:22:08 <dminuoso> Oh well, I guess I can just conjure this up with `counterexample`
19:23:21 <[exa]> surprisingly not many
19:23:30 <[exa]> (ways to express that)
19:23:54 <dminuoso> Well, `counterexample` seems general enough to let you build most arbitrary things.
19:24:25 <dminuoso> (===) is just a convenience wrapper for it
19:25:22 <ski> express transitivity ? "all equal" ?
19:25:30 <dminuoso> Yes
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19:25:35 <ski> (which ? :)
19:25:41 <[exa]> I'm slightly more concerned about the multicomparison, naive `shrink` will be super biased
19:26:00 <dminuoso> For my case it wont be, its rather a sort of roundtrip comparison
19:26:18 <dminuoso> ski: all equal
19:26:46 <ski> assuming transitivity of the equivalence relation, presumably
19:27:18 <dminuoso> I consider transitivity to be a requirement for Eq as per Haskell 2010 report.
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19:34:37 <ski> @type Test.QuickCheck.conjoin . (zipWith (Test.QuickCheck.===) `ap` tail) -- dminuoso ?
19:34:39 <lambdabot> (Eq a, Show a) => [a] -> Test.QuickCheck.Property.Property
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19:59:47 <tomsmeding> ski: sneakily throwing in the (->) monad
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20:04:59 <dminuoso> ski: Ah that's neat.
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20:14:14 <ski> (of course, you could also just compare every element to the first one)
20:14:31 <ski> tomsmeding : fastest way to derive it, for me :)
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22:09:15 <juri_> if i'm in a function that's being called in a typeclass, and i'm given an argument, is there a ways i can separate the constructor of that argument, and use the same constructor in my return value?
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22:18:57 <geekosaur> only if you can do it via e.g. fmap
22:19:08 <geekosaur> if I understand what you're asking
22:19:36 <juri_> so, i've found a hack, wondering if it can be made more-safe-sane.
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22:20:18 <juri_> in a function which accepts argument a, which is of typeclass b, i want to return a value which is constructed with the same constructor as a.
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22:21:28 <juri_> so, i just implemented consLikeA a -> (value -> c), and made it part of the typeclass. now the implementations will resolve a, and consLikeA will return a constructor.
22:22:55 <hpc> how many constructors are we talking about here?
22:23:12 <juri_> just two, in this case.
22:23:21 <juri_> hmm. ghc doesn't like my answer.
22:23:58 <hpc> maybe just make it a "law" of that type class?
22:23:59 <geekosaur> this fails to surprise me
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22:24:29 <juri_> oh, typo.
22:24:34 <juri_> it likes that.
22:26:03 <juri_> so yeah, that's how you solve it. i was just looking for a better method of constructor mirroring.
22:27:35 <juri_> and GHC is satisfied that the input and output types are the same. win!
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22:29:56 <EvanR> I wonder if "being called from a typeclass" matters at all
22:30:41 <geekosaur> sounds like it needed to be defined within the typeclass so each instance could provide an appropriate instantiation?
22:30:49 <juri_> yep.
22:31:15 <juri_> EvanR: sorry, i've been a C programmer for 30 years. i'm still recovering. ;)
22:31:32 <EvanR> if it's more than 2 constructors there's always Generics
22:32:07 juri_ nods.
22:32:30 <juri_> for my application, it'll always be two constructors. normallized, and not-normallized. writing an algebra engine.
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22:41:05 <[Leary]> juri_: It's hard to say what you should do without seeing the code. If you're dealing with something like `data FooBar a = Normed (Bar a) | Raw (Bar a)`, you can factor into `data Norm = Normed | Raw; data Foo bar a = Foo{ norm :: Norm, bar :: bar a }`. Then even if `bar` varies by instance, you can always share `Foo` and see `norm`.
22:43:20 <EvanR> if it's data NormedRaw a = Normed a | Raw a you can derive Functor...
22:43:36 <EvanR> and use fmap
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22:45:01 <juri_> i'm dealing with both the painless and the painful way. tl;dr: i'm rewriting a 3500 line diff, and using typeclasses this time. i had two types in the 'old' branch, then moved to one type in the 'new' branch.. and now am just implementing three typeclasses, and migrating both branches through.
22:45:06 <juri_> its working out.
22:45:46 <juri_> and i don't have a million case statements to do dumb pattern matches. so, win.
22:46:09 <juri_> haskell is doing a good job of making this pain-free. i'm deep in a mess, and impressed.
22:47:48 <monochrom> My question would be "what if there is no such thing as a constructor? for example it's a lambda" but I guess the stated question is never the real question.
22:49:00 <monochrom> Or more sinisterly it's "newtype X = X (Int -> Bool)" so it "has" a "constructor" but no it doesn't.
22:51:39 <geekosaur> I think it still has one from the standpoint of the second. the first means a function instance can't be used unless (->) is allowed to be the "constructor"
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23:00:23 <ski> "haskell is doing a good job of making this pain-free. i'm deep in a mess, and impressed." -- those two things aren't a bit at odds with each other ?
23:00:53 <ski> (.. hm, unless you mean that Haskell helps resolve, or ameliorate, the mess)
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23:01:38 <monochrom> Yes.
23:01:57 <monochrom> And also programmers are not known to be particularly coherent writers. :)
23:02:07 <ski> juri_ : anyway, your talk about "constructor" is pretty vague, hard to get a feel for what you're really doing / wanting to do
23:02:28 <ski> perhaps sometimes they're known not to be :)
23:06:22 <EvanR> you got your known knowns, and you got your not knowns, then you got your known nots
23:08:18 <EvanR> rumsfeld was enumering something isomorphic to sierpinsky space
23:08:51 <EvanR> *Sierpiński
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23:15:22 <dolio> Sierpinski has at most two points, though.
23:16:55 <EvanR> points shmoints we really care about the opens
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23:18:40 <dolio> Seems a little more like Σ².
23:18:41 ski . o O ( unknown knowns )
23:19:45 <dolio> Oh, actually, not that one.
23:21:05 <EvanR> type Rumsfeld = Maybe (Maybe ())
23:21:16 <dolio> Σ[ p ∈ 𝕊 ] (p → 2), switching up my notation.
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23:22:23 <juri_> ski: the mess is my own: three plus months of developing without breaking into small commits. now i'm writing small commits, in a new tree, using the previous tree for reference.
23:22:24 <dolio> Subsingletons of 2.
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23:26:28 ski . o O ( "First Steps in Synthetic Computability Theory" by Andrej Bauer in 2004 at <https://math.andrej.com/2005/05/08/first-steps-in-synthetic-computability-theory/> )
23:28:45 <ski> juri_ : mhm, i see
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23:31:31 <ski> dolio : element of Sierpiński construed as a type ?
23:32:09 <dolio> Yes, it's a subtype of the propositions.
23:32:36 <ski> which ? Sierpiński, or what you wrote (which i don't understand) ?
23:32:41 <EvanR> In the synthetic universe, the computable functions are simply all the functions, the computably enumerable sets are all the enumerable sets, etc. So we may just speak about ordinary sets and functions and never worry about which ones are computable. So Andre is basically using haskell xD
23:33:38 <dolio> 𝕊 is. In the computability setting, it the subtype of propositions that are equivalent to ∃ n. α n, where α : ℕ -> 2.
23:34:39 <dolio> What I wrote is the monad of subsingletons of a type, if you generalize 2 to an arbitrary type. Which subsingletons it is are determined by the subtype of propositions in the first part.
23:34:51 <dolio> So, in this case, it's the semidecidable subsingletons of 2.
23:36:35 <dolio> If you use Ω, it's all subsingletons, and `A → Σ[ p ∈ Ω ] (p → B)` are the partial functions.
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23:37:31 <dolio> Because that type is equivalent to a predicate on A, and a function well defined on the subset of A given by the predicate.
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23:39:39 <dolio> If you use the decidable propositions, 2, you get the equivalent of A -> Maybe B.
23:41:13 <dolio> The `∃ n. α n` thing is like being equivalent to a Σ₁ statement, but synthetically.
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23:45:28 <dolio> So, what I wrote is like what you'd use to model the partial recursive functions in a total language.
23:45:32 <ski> dolio : oh, now i see. the Sierpiński element is interpreted as a subobject of the singleton (which i guess you alluded to)
23:45:38 <dolio> As a Kleisli category.
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23:46:10 <ski> (treating ⌜𝕊⌝ as a mini-universe of encodings of types, perhaps)
23:46:16 <dolio> Yeah.
23:48:31 <dolio> The partial order on it is just function spaces between its decodings.
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