Logs on 2022-10-18 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:06:01 | <EvanR> | this predates duff's device by like 15 years xD |
| 00:06:43 | <geekosaur> | they didn't change the C standard to accommodate it though |
| 00:07:21 | <geekosaur> | original K&R C is fairly simple |
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| 00:07:56 | <geekosaur> | then things started being added, and then ANSI came along |
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| 00:10:19 | <geekosaur> | but most of the pre-ANSI additions weren't to statement syntax, they were things like `void` and `const` |
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| 00:13:35 | <hpc> | it's weird to think of C without void |
| 00:14:22 | <EvanR> | it's just that it says statements for a tree, but this tree doesn't correspond with the visual xD |
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| 00:14:25 | <EvanR> | form* |
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| 00:14:50 | <EvanR> | what gives |
| 00:15:28 | <EvanR> | was it a "best effort" sort of design, works well enough |
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| 00:17:03 | <geekosaur[m]> | More "least effort" 😀 |
| 00:17:30 | <geekosaur[m]> | Look at its predecessors |
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| 00:18:23 | <EvanR> | granted "the visual" looks to be up to you, and styles of the time |
| 00:19:08 | <EvanR> | which predecessor should I subject myself to next? xD |
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| 00:22:28 | <geekosaur> | B |
| 00:22:53 | <geekosaur> | BCPL's probably too minimal |
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| 00:24:05 | <EvanR> | that post is already B |
| 00:24:35 | <EvanR> | BCPL it is |
| 00:24:42 | <geekosaur> | hpc, default type of everything was `int` |
| 00:25:11 | <geekosaur> | if you fell off the end or did `return;` you got whatever happened to be in the accumulator |
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| 00:27:06 | <geekosaur> | s/you got/the caller got/ |
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| 00:30:08 | <EvanR> | The philosophy of BCPL is not one of the tyrant who thinks he knows best and lays down the law on what is and what is not allowed; rather, BCPL acts more as a servant offering his services to the best of his ability without complaint, even when confronted with apparent nonsense. The programmer is always assumed to know what he is doing and is not hemmed in by petty restrictions. |
| 00:30:35 | <geekosaur> | now you know where C got it from |
| 00:30:58 | <geekosaur> | and then ANSI ruined it all 🙂 |
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| 00:31:45 | <EvanR> | ANSI delivered programmers who in fact didn't know what they were doing? |
| 00:32:00 | <EvanR> | because that spells trouble for that philsophy |
| 00:32:03 | <geekosaur> | no, ANSI started tightening things up to reject "nonsense" |
| 00:32:16 | <EvanR> | not sure they succeeded on that |
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| 00:32:31 | <geekosaur> | they didn't, but it's far less lax than early C |
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| 00:33:27 | <geekosaur> | also, gcc may be the "failed" there; you're only really conforming to ANSI with --pedantic |
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| 00:35:13 | <geekosaur> | also also, it's that philosophy that delivers programmers who in fact didn't know what they were doing; compare why Postel's Law died |
| 00:35:58 | <geekosaur> | (if you're liberal in what you receive then nobody has to be conservative in what they send) |
| 00:38:30 | <geekosaur> | s/receive/accept/ |
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| 00:49:52 | <EvanR> | let start() be $( writes("Hello everyone!") $) |
| 00:50:35 | Clint | squints. |
| 00:50:35 | <EvanR> | I supposed hello world was not yet perfected |
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| 03:39:45 | <[Leary]> | @tell talismanick Rather than a typeclass, you probably want a GADT: https://gist.github.com/LSLeary/7e551b7ca6f26fa9d8ed26f718f9f78d |
| 03:39:45 | <lambdabot> | Consider it noted. |
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| 04:00:49 | <Clinton[m]> | Is there a version of zip that fails (perhaps via maybe, either) if the list lengths are different or should I roll my own? |
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| 04:03:59 | <EvanR> | zip :: (a -> b -> c) -> Vect n a -> Vect n b -> Vect n c --ok, so it doesn't fail. Sorry about that xD |
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| 04:12:43 | <Clinton[m]> | EvanR: lists, not vectors. Think like `listToMaybe` |
| 04:13:23 | <EvanR> | right, just that the problem itself suggested to me maybe it was the wrong data structure |
| 04:13:41 | <EvanR> | because you won't know you're in the wrong until the end of the list |
| 04:14:21 | <EvanR> | you won't even know you're in the right, unfortunately |
| 04:14:40 | <Clinton[m]> | that's right. But when I'm dealing with output from a database library that just gives back a list of columns I've got to check it at runtime. |
| 04:14:56 | <Clinton[m]> | EvanR: what do you mean, won't even know you're in the right? |
| 04:14:58 | <EvanR> | figurede |
| 04:15:15 | <EvanR> | I mean, you won't be able to return a Right until the end of the list |
| 04:15:42 | <[Leary]> | `zipWithRem :: (a -> b -> c) -> [a] -> [b] -> ([c], Either [a] [b])` would be pretty useful, in general; you can handle the leftovers however you want. No hits on hoogle though. |
| 04:16:12 | <EvanR> | brilliant |
| 04:16:20 | <yelllloowwww> | Meeoooow |
| 04:16:35 | <EvanR> | and due to magic update frame shenanigans, you can begin processing the results early if you want |
| 04:16:45 | <EvanR> | without wasting space |
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| 04:24:55 | <jackdk> | [Leary]: check the semialign package. It doesn't express that you'll have a common prefix of `These` constructors |
| 04:25:03 | <jackdk> | but is otherwise what you might want |
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| 04:35:33 | <[Leary]> | jackdk: Good to know. :) |
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| 04:50:47 | <[Leary]> | Idle musing: it would be pretty awesome if someone extended hoogle to find near isomorphic types with some metric on a canonical representation of the algebraic structure. |
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| 12:20:18 | <dminuoso> | TIL. Double hash bang literals give me Word# :o |
| 12:20:26 | <dminuoso> | % :set -XMagicHash |
| 12:20:26 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 12:20:33 | <dminuoso> | % :t 0x1## |
| 12:20:33 | <yahb2> | 0x1## :: GHC.Prim.Word# |
| 12:20:35 | <dminuoso> | % :t 0x1# |
| 12:20:35 | <yahb2> | 0x1# :: GHC.Prim.Int# |
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| 12:52:56 | <mastarija> | Is there a "lens" way of getting a sum of a list? Like `myData ^. someList . sum`. Or do I have to write `sum $ myData ^. someList`? |
| 12:53:32 | <Cale> | Why not write the latter? |
| 12:54:32 | <Cale> | There is https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lens-5.2/docs/Control-Lens-Fold.html#v:sumOf |
| 12:54:37 | <Cale> | But... |
| 12:55:32 | <mastarija> | Cale, because it looks nicer? |
| 12:56:31 | <raehik1> | mastarija: might you be able to do `myData ^. someList & sum`? using the reverse function application operator. (I'm assuming operator binding precedence just works out) |
| 12:56:32 | <Cale> | Is it easier to think about though? Certainly something that typechecks in the expression you gave can't satisfy the lens laws. |
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| 12:56:58 | <raehik1> | :t (&) |
| 12:56:59 | <lambdabot> | a -> (a -> b) -> b |
| 12:57:48 | <Cale> | Or flip everything the other way and write sum (view someList myData) |
| 12:58:12 | <mastarija> | raehik1, indeed, that works nicely :) |
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| 12:59:18 | <Cale> | When I use lenses, I mostly tend to avoid the shenanigans operators. If there's some sort of pattern in the code where people are using them a particular way, I'd follow suit of course. |
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| 13:00:36 | <Cale> | (I also only use lenses when they're basically necessary to make an abstraction work.) |
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| 13:18:47 | <kuribas> | I prefer the non-operator lenses. |
| 13:18:54 | <kuribas> | view, to, get, etc... |
| 13:20:26 | <kuribas> | mastarija: note that sum is lazy over lists in earlier ghc versions. |
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| 13:21:47 | <kuribas> | mastarija: you could use sumOf |
| 13:22:02 | <kuribas> | sumOf is strict |
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| 14:01:29 | <dminuoso> | I second Cale's opinion of using lens only for making an abstraction work (or if the problem domain requires dealing with highly nested data tyeps). |
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| 14:08:25 | <carbolymer> | ViewPatterns: hot or not? |
| 14:09:22 | <raehik> | not - iirc the new \cases syntax replaces it somewhat? with more common (IMO) syntax |
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| 14:09:44 | <carbolymer> | raehik: new \cases? link pls? |
| 14:09:50 | <DavidBinder> | Hot: Some code which uses guards can be rewritten using view patterns with better exhaustiveness checking and in a more readable style. |
| 14:10:10 | <dolio> | Those seems like two different features to me. |
| 14:10:18 | <dminuoso> | raehik: \cases is something different. |
| 14:10:51 | <carbolymer> | DavidBinder: I need to see a good example for that, so far I find guards more readable |
| 14:10:53 | <Cale> | ViewPatterns can be useful, but go easy on them, it's easy to write code that is less readable than it otherwise could be. |
| 14:11:16 | <dminuoso> | carbolymer: ViewPatterns can be used as poor-mans getters, and ViewSynonyms are even more powerful. |
| 14:11:38 | <dolio> | View patterns are very useful to involve in aliases, too. |
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| 14:11:59 | <carbolymer> | dminuoso: you mean patternsynonyms? |
| 14:12:05 | <dminuoso> | Sorry, yes. |
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| 14:12:47 | <dolio> | Yeah, view patterns + pattern synonyms + exhaustiveness declarations can let you provide a completely separate view of a data type. |
| 14:14:15 | <DavidBinder> | carbolymer: Instead of three guards x == y, x > y, x < y, I can use a view pattern with compare and dispatch on the Ordering LT, EQ, or GT. This makes it obvious to GHC that the cases are exhaustive |
| 14:15:39 | <carbolymer> | DavidBinder: can you write it as a code, I'm still not seeing the advantage in your example |
| 14:15:41 | <raehik> | carbolymer: I can't find the user guide docs for \cases , but here: https://github.com/ghc-proposals/ghc-proposals/blob/master/proposals/0302-cases.rst#example |
| 14:18:22 | <dminuoso> | raehik: By the way, I think Ive dived into all depths of flatparse now, written my own specialized combinators. The one thing I really dont like, is the error handling. :( |
| 14:19:10 | <raehik> | dminuoso: oh no! I thought that was one of the nicer things about it. what issues did you have? |
| 14:19:54 | <dminuoso> | Sadly <|> does does skip an `error'd` parser, which means you cant do something like: let a = $(switch [| case _ of "foo" -> foo; "bar" -> bar |]) `cut` [Msg "Foo", Msg "Bar"] in some a |
| 14:20:10 | <dminuoso> | Because `cut` will disable backtracking. |
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| 14:22:14 | <raehik> | hmm. I seem to remember an issue about the Alternative instance |
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| 14:22:30 | <dminuoso> | I mean yeah, you can float it into the cases individually like: |
| 14:23:06 | <dminuoso> | let a = $(switch [| case _ of "foo" -> foo `cut'` Msg "Foo"; "bar" -> bar `cut` Msg "Bar" |]) in some a |
| 14:23:21 | <dminuoso> | But if the outer parser fails, you will not get any "expected Foo or Bar" |
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| 14:28:47 | <dminuoso> | Ergonomically the problem is that Fail# does not have an error. |
| 14:29:43 | <DavidBinder> | carbolymer: I was thinking about https://paste.tomsmeding.com/P9YOusdc |
| 14:30:10 | <DavidBinder> | But apparently both examples generate missing cases warnings with current ghc. |
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| 14:30:18 | <dminuoso> | DavidBinder: For this style, I prefer `ex x y = case compare x of ...` |
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| 14:30:54 | <dminuoso> | DavidBinder: And yes, it cannot prove exhaustiveness in the *first* case at least. |
| 14:31:04 | <dminuoso> | It would have to assume lawful instances |
| 14:31:16 | <dminuoso> | The second is at least a bug report. |
| 14:31:46 | <DavidBinder> | Yes, I expect a warning for the first case, but I thought GHC is sufficiently smart for the second one. |
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| 14:35:24 | <carbolymer> | DavidBinder: I see, but still I find guards less verbose and more readable. Is ghc reporting non-exhaustive pattern on the guards version? |
| 14:35:49 | <dminuoso> | Yes, it has no choice but to. |
| 14:36:08 | <carbolymer> | ah right, I didn't notice discussion |
| 14:36:33 | <DavidBinder> | Yes, on the guards version GHC necessarily has to give up. There is no way to decide in general if a set of boolean expressions is exhaustive. In the second example it should be possible, but apparently GHC doesn't do it correctly. |
| 14:36:39 | <dminuoso> | Imagine I wrote `instance Eq T where _ == _ = False; instance Ord T where _ <= _ = False` |
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| 14:44:08 | <DavidBinder> | https://pp.ipd.kit.edu/uploads/publikationen/graf20lyg.pdf |
| 14:44:33 | <DavidBinder> | In section 2.2.1 they mention that the current coverage checking algorithm should be able to deal with view patterns. |
| 14:44:52 | <DavidBinder> | Maybe it is a bug. |
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| 14:59:49 | <dminuoso> | I think the coverage checking is one of those things that has historically incredibly bug ridden. |
| 15:00:10 | <dminuoso> | THings have dramatically improved since lower your guards, though. |
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| 17:08:51 | <davean> | gh |
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| 17:08:59 | <davean> | Coverage checking has caused me so many issues |
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| 17:09:20 | <davean> | I usually go for 100% branch coverage in code I care at all about, and some stuff just doesn't cover, I've filed several bugs. |
| 17:09:36 | <davean> | No one cares to maintain coverage |
| 17:10:08 | <davean> | Hell a lot of my code is littered with conventions to not break coverage checking |
| 17:10:31 | <davean> | Why did I manually define that instance? because coverage checking didn't always cover default implimentations ... etc |
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| 17:17:42 | <dolio> | Coverage checking not figuring out default implementations? |
| 17:17:53 | <dolio> | That's pretty bad. |
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| 17:19:10 | <davean> | dolio: that particular one is fixed now |
| 17:19:37 | <davean> | But yah, HPC bugs lead to some of the weird conventions in some of my code |
| 17:19:47 | <davean> | past and pressent |
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| 17:31:06 | <EvanR> | HPC? |
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| 17:31:28 | <geekosaur> | "haskell program coverage" |
| 17:31:33 | <byorgey> | EvanR: presumably https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hpc |
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| 17:32:42 | <geekosaur> | https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/9.4.2/docs/users_guide/profiling.html#observing-code-coverage |
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| 18:01:00 | <monochrom> | :( |
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| 18:03:58 | <telser_> | Does anyone know of differences between specifying -H at runtime vs at compile/link with --with-rtsopts? I think my user guide/google-fu is failing me. |
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| 18:05:22 | <geekosaur> | there shouldn't be any, either way it would be applied during RTS startup |
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| 18:06:37 | <geekosaur> | if you're using cabal/stack run (or exec) then remember to include a -- to stop cabal/stack from eating the RTS options instead of passing them on to your program |
| 18:07:31 | <telser_> | That's what I thought too, but I'm seeing different resource consumption behavior. |
| 18:07:32 | <geekosaur> | e.g. cabal run exe:whatever -- +RTS ... |
| 18:08:50 | <telser_> | There is no stack/cabal in this, sadly. Wish I had simply overlooked that. |
| 18:09:18 | <geekosaur> | does it behave differently if you use GHCRTS=-H... program ...? |
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| 18:18:23 | <telser_> | I'll give that a shot |
| 18:23:30 | <monochrom> | I cannot reproduce a difference with GHC 9.2.4 |
| 18:24:35 | <monochrom> | or 8.10.7 |
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| 18:27:08 | <telser_> | This is with 9.0.2 and the environment variable is behaving the same as compile/link time |
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| 18:28:08 | <L29Ah> | telser_: does ` +RTS --help` work? |
| 18:28:09 | <telser_> | Err not the same as compile/link, the same as runtime otherwise |
| 18:28:35 | <L29Ah> | and what about --with-rtsopts --help? |
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| 18:33:03 | <telser_> | L29Ah: Works doing --with-rtsopts, but not otherwise |
| 18:33:35 | <L29Ah> | i suspect you explicitly asked ghc to disable +RTS stuff |
| 18:35:16 | <geekosaur> | you need `-rtsopts` (and no it doesn't have to be explicit; that |
| 18:35:22 | <geekosaur> | 's the default iirc) |
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| 18:35:45 | <telser_> | Definitely building with that |
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| 18:36:37 | <monochrom> | {compile-time -rtsopts then run-time +RTS -H1500m} or {compile-time -with-rtsopts=-H1500m then run-time say no more} |
| 18:37:49 | <telser_> | ghc-options: -O2 -threaded -rtsopts -with-rtsopts=-N -with-rtsopts=-256m |
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| 18:39:04 | <telser_> | That's from the cabal file |
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| 18:40:18 | <geekosaur> | \that second -with-rtsopts looks funny to me |
| 18:41:18 | <monochrom> | Yeah, -256m? -H256m? |
| 18:41:50 | <telser_> | Ugh, yes I somhow deleted the H when copying it |
| 18:42:00 | <monochrom> | +RTS --info has some info |
| 18:42:00 | <geekosaur> | I'm not sure how compile time and runtime rtsopts interact but if they concat then it might abort silently with a syntax error (I think we've seen that silently aborting rts option parsing before) |
| 18:42:28 | <telser_> | !!! That seems awful |
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| 18:43:29 | <geekosaur> | yeh |
| 18:43:57 | <monochrom> | The manual says that -with-rtsopts sets the default, until you use +RTS to override. |
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| 18:44:55 | <geekosaur> | but does it override the whole rtsopts thing or just the parts you specify? (also I wonder how two -with-rtsopts=... combine) |
| 18:45:16 | <monochrom> | True, I haven't tested exhaustively :) |
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| 18:50:09 | <telser_> | I'm fairly certain that at least different rtsopts concat when using the flag multiple times, but no idea on the same flag multiple times. |
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| 18:51:11 | <geekosaur> | I do know that cabal's quote processing is not very smart, so to combine them you have to say `"-with-rtsopts=-N -H1500m"` |
| 18:51:32 | <telser_> | I'd expect, last one wins, but haven't found anything in users guide |
| 18:52:17 | <geekosaur> | there I was more wondering about, if you specify `+RTS -H256m`, does it also override the `-N`? |
| 18:52:29 | <geekosaur> | or forget, in this case |
| 18:55:34 | <telser_> | Unless -T is defaulted, I can see a project that says '-N' in their package.yaml and "-T" at runtime and can see that working. Unless one of those is a default. |
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