Logs on 2022-10-21 (liberachat/#haskell)

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01:40:05	<HackingSpring>	What's the philosophy that comes into play for the GHC wiki? I was building it (GHC) locally and I use the masochistic option of a mac m1 and nix w/ home-manager. I've found a couple of hiccups when finding libraries such as ncurses. Would it be ok to add a section mentioning my fix into the ghc wiki?
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08:11:57	<chreekat>	HackingSpring: At the very least, you could add a new page and link to it from the "Contributed documentation" page on https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/wikis/building
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08:12:14	<chreekat>	Or work it in to somewhere higher up if you have the inclination
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08:27:05	<sameer>	Test
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10:10:26	<apache2>	is Shae lurking around here?
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10:11:57	<merijn>	not atm afaict
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11:03:38	<dminuoso>	flatparse is officially my favourite library of the year. :)
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11:05:47	<dminuoso>	It addresses so many concerns I had with megaparsec or attoparsec, is extremely performant, and is actually simple. Error handling is completely manual, which I think is much better than what megaparsec does.
11:07:05	<merijn>	megaparsec was a lot more usefriendly right after the parsec fork
11:07:10	<merijn>	I think the UX has degraded quite a bit
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11:12:29	<tomsmeding>	> Only little-endian 64 bit systems are currently supported as the host machine
11:12:36	<tomsmeding>	always nice when libraries come with warnings like these :p
11:13:15	<dminuoso>	The portability can be widened, Im doing a lot of work on the way primtypes are handled at the moment.
11:13:30	<dminuoso>	Its just a bit tedious because there's so little documentation on GHC internals.
11:13:34	<tomsmeding>	right, I saw some conversations about the topic in this channel I think :)
11:15:40	<tomsmeding>	dminuoso: is Flatparse.Stateful significantly better than layering a StateM on top of Flatparse.Basic?
11:16:02	<dminuoso>	tomsmeding: If you all you care for is an Int worth of state, yes.
11:16:11	<tomsmeding>	what if I need two ints
11:16:22	<dminuoso>	Im doing work on that department too.
11:16:26	<tomsmeding>	:D
11:16:32	<dminuoso>	Realistically the Int is just for something like parser state
11:16:46	<dminuoso>	As "function-body-mode" or something along these lines
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11:17:24	<tomsmeding>	because realistically, indentation parsing needs two ints of state I think, current column and current base column
11:17:43	<dminuoso>	Well, you can use the upper and lower half of the int
11:17:49	<tomsmeding>	lol
11:17:55	<dminuoso>	11 bits should be enough for your needs, no?
11:18:06	<tomsmeding>	I hope I get 31 bits
11:18:11	<dminuoso>	Sorry, 15 bits~!
11:18:28	<tomsmeding>	and even then it's kinda questionable whether it's reasonable to restrict source files to 2GB size
11:18:41	<tomsmeding>	like, maybe
11:18:51	<dminuoso>	Either way, you can still do manual state.
11:19:10	<dminuoso>	It depends on the parser design, that is you may not need the state to be dragged around anywhere
11:19:13	<tomsmeding>	threading through functions, you mean? or StateM? (I guess that ends up being the same thing)
11:19:23	<tomsmeding>	right
11:19:34	<dminuoso>	Threading through functions manually where you need it
11:19:38	<tomsmeding>	yeah
11:19:55	<tomsmeding>	well I expect a haskell parser to need it almost everywhere
11:20:12	<tomsmeding>	because you need to update "current column" everywhere, and you need access to the current base column anywhere a newline is accepted
11:20:14	<tomsmeding>	which is in lots of places
11:20:31	<dminuoso>	Maybe, yeah. Perhaps there is a case to be made to add `Int#` worth of state to basic, and make the "Stateful" parser over an arbitrary `s` state.
11:21:11	<dminuoso>	I mean the reason we are constrained to Int is because we can assure this will get unboxed in the result tuple
11:21:30	<dminuoso>	This is only really important if you very heavily read/modify it.
11:22:04	<dminuoso>	If put/get/modify is not often done, the price for indirection isnt that problematic.
11:23:32	<tomsmeding>	if the state is for tracking indentation, it'll be quite often; once every couple of lexical tokens
11:24:02	<dminuoso>	Maybe we should consider having both then.
11:24:30	<dminuoso>	Then you have a high performance state, and a slow indirectional state
11:24:41	<dminuoso>	At the expense of an additional argument pushed to the stack on every call
11:24:44	<tomsmeding>	you mean what you just said, a version with an Int# and a version with an 's'?
11:24:54	<dminuoso>	No, just having both
11:25:08	<tomsmeding>	ah
11:25:17	<tomsmeding>	hmm
11:25:19	<dminuoso>	newtype Parser r s e a = Parser {runParser# :: ForeignPtrContents -> r -> Addr# -> Addr# -> s -> Int# -> Res# s e a}
11:25:24	<tomsmeding>	yeah
11:25:31	<tomsmeding>	many stuffs
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11:28:04	<tomsmeding>	dminuoso: why are there top-level definitions 'empty' and '(<\|>)' instead of an Alternative instance?
11:28:25	<dminuoso>	tomsmeding: Because <\|> in flatparse associates differently
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11:28:57	<dminuoso>	Control.Applicative: (<\|>) :: f a -> f a -> f a infixl 3
11:29:04	<dminuoso>	FlatParse: (<\|>) :: Parser e a -> Parser e a -> Parser e a infixr 6
11:29:17	<tomsmeding>	spicy
11:29:27	<tomsmeding>	I guess the infixr makes sense
11:30:02	<dminuoso>	There is a ticket about it, we just need a REWRITE rule to re-associate back - then we could make it an Alternative
11:30:31	<tomsmeding>	dminuoso: why does the word "branch" in the haddocks of 'branch' have a LATIN SMALL LETTER B WITH DOT ABOVE
11:32:29	<dminuoso>	Dunno, but it reminded me of Chris' comment https://web.archive.org/web/20170511175754/https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/2cbgpz/flee_traveller_flee_or_you_will_be_corrupted_and/
11:32:57	<dminuoso>	(In response to accursedUnutterablePerformIO)
11:33:33	<tomsmeding>	I seem to be good at spotting these things https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29904277
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11:34:47	<tomsmeding>	haha nice
11:35:04	<tomsmeding>	microlens exists
11:35:15	<dminuoso>	Yeah, I just use `optics` :p
11:35:25	<dminuoso>	Which in comparison has a small footprint
11:35:36	<dminuoso>	(Cant live without prisms, so I dont mind profunctors)
11:35:56	<dminuoso>	Or I guess the actual pricy thing is indexed-traversable
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11:40:41	<dminuoso>	What was really surprising to me, is how poor alex/happy actually perform.
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11:59:05	<tomsmeding>	why are these not overlapping instances https://play-haskell.tomsmeding.com/saved/ESrlXOVE
12:00:12	<dminuoso>	tomsmeding: because one is more specific.
12:00:29	<dminuoso>	See GHC manual
12:00:36	<tomsmeding>	ooooh it's instantiation-defined
12:00:44	<tomsmeding>	if I require C Void Void it does raise the error
12:01:49	<tomsmeding>	but that case I can't seem to fix with OVERLAPPING/OVERLAPPABLE pragmas
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12:02:14	<tomsmeding>	i.e. this gives the same error https://play-haskell.tomsmeding.com/saved/C1iP81o7
12:02:15	<dminuoso>	What is instantiation-defined?
12:02:54	<tomsmeding>	I just thought-up that word :p
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12:03:22	<tomsmeding>	what I meant is that not all overlap checks are done when checking the instances, some overlap is only detected when said overlap is encountered during resolution
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12:03:48	<dminuoso>	Yes, think of definition-time checking as just early heuristics for your sanity.
12:04:20	<tomsmeding>	sure
12:04:25	<dminuoso>	Since it can cause earlier diagnostics, which in multi-module setups might move diagnostics closer to the source4
12:04:36	<tomsmeding>	yes clearly the earlier the better
12:05:14	<tomsmeding>	but I thought I could make the resolution engine choose whatever option I want in case of overlap using OVERLAPP{ING,ABLE} pragmas, but this case doesn't seem to be affected by them
12:05:58	<dminuoso>	tomsmeding: remove one OVERLAPPABLE or OVERLAPPING.
12:06:02	<dminuoso>	Cant have both
12:06:05	<dminuoso>	https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/instances.html#instance-overlap
12:06:18	<dminuoso>	`Either IX is overlappable, or IY is overlapping. (This “either/or” design, rather than a “both/and” design, allow a client to deliberately override an instance from a library, without requiring a change to the library.)`
12:06:48	<tomsmeding>	yeah, but it does also work if both pragmas are present
12:06:51	<dminuoso>	Ah it does?
12:06:53	<tomsmeding>	and in any case, removing either doesn't help :p
12:06:54	<tomsmeding>	yeah
12:07:11	<dminuoso>	Ah okay. Then the wording in the GHC manual is slightly incorrect.
12:07:18	<dminuoso>	The `Either` should be stricken
12:07:25	<tomsmeding>	yes
12:07:28	<tomsmeding>	I guess so
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12:36:02	<dminuoso>	tomsmeding: By the way, it occured to me that if you use a CPS StateT, then its exactly the same as newtype Parser r s e a = Parser {runParser# :: ForeignPtrContents -> r -> Addr# -> Addr# -> s -> Int# -> Res# s e a}
12:36:16	<dminuoso>	Well almost exactly the same, anyhow
12:37:32	<tomsmeding>	similar runtime representation, you mean?
12:37:54	<dminuoso>	Yes
12:38:18	<tomsmeding>	so the fully stateful version could be made from the existing versions without duplicating all the code :)
12:38:37	<dminuoso>	Which is actually nice for my case,
12:38:40	<dminuoso>	because I already have this lying around
12:38:43	<dminuoso>	newtype ExStateT s e m a = ExStateT { runExStateT :: forall r. s -> (e -> m r) -> (s -> a -> m r) -> m r }
12:39:04	<dminuoso>	Giving me even a way to abort the parser entirely on internal errors, which is nice!
12:39:08	<tomsmeding>	cps'ed exceptt + statett?
12:39:11	<dminuoso>	Yeah
12:39:12	<tomsmeding>	s/statett/statet/
12:39:30	<tomsmeding>	how is that better than using the existing error support in flatparse
12:39:38	<tomsmeding>	oh skipping all the cuts
12:39:42	<tomsmeding>	that makes sense
12:39:46	<dminuoso>	cuts can be recovered.
12:39:50	<dminuoso>	by means of `try`
12:40:22	<tomsmeding>	oh I had my names confused, right I meant try and cutting
12:40:54	<dminuoso>	Perhaps things are good the way they are, really.
12:41:19	<tomsmeding>	perhaps there just needs to be a line in the docs that if you layer a monad transformer over this that is a newtyle and in cps style, then it works fine?
12:41:20	<dminuoso>	But actually no hold on!
12:41:22	<dminuoso>	There's a major difference.
12:41:50	<dminuoso>	The thing though is, running StateT ontop of Parser parsec will behave differently with respect to backtracking
12:41:56	<dminuoso>	Which might be highly undesirable
12:42:07	<dminuoso>	Since state would be preserved after backtracking
12:42:12	<tomsmeding>	ah
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12:42:14	<tomsmeding>	that's major
12:42:29	<tomsmeding>	yeah ~nobody will want that
12:43:26	<dminuoso>	But honestly its not a big deal for me. Ill just parse into an intermediate ADT, and then interpret that ADT in ExStateT.
12:43:49	<dminuoso>	Only slight annoyance is that I have to keep Spans around in order to produce localized error messages
12:43:56	<dminuoso>	*localizable
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13:54:53	<Guest\|82>	I just installed Haskelll with ghcup. What code editor or development environment should I use?
13:55:14	<geekosaur>	whichever one you like
13:55:23	<geekosaur>	I flip between emacs and vscode
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13:56:16	<dminuoso>	The one you prefer most, definitely.
13:56:37	<dminuoso>	Haskell syntax highlighting modules exist for almost all editors out there
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13:57:28	<dminuoso>	If you want a more integrated environment, anything that supports LSP (language server protocol) will suffice, since we have haskell-language-server.
13:57:48	<dminuoso>	Which all popular editors have some level of integration for
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14:01:46	<dminuoso>	https://play-haskell.tomsmeding.com/saved/ESrlXOVE
14:01:49	<dminuoso>	Two questions.
14:01:53	<dminuoso>	1) Why do I get the warning twice?
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14:01:56	<dminuoso>	2) Why do I get the warning at all?
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14:02:15	<dminuoso>	Oh hold on!
14:02:21	<dminuoso>	Forgot to click save
14:02:38	<dminuoso>	https://play-haskell.tomsmeding.com/saved/6UE6XpXe
14:02:40	<dminuoso>	Here
14:03:37	<albet70>	this 'let' in haskell could be implemented by function?
14:03:47	<dminuoso>	albet70: Yes.
14:04:02	<dminuoso>	`let x = 1 in ...` is, semantically, the same as `(\x -> ...) 1`
14:04:38	<dminuoso>	Mutual recursion will be a bit more complicated to build with lambda, but is possible too.
14:05:04	<albet70>	dminuoso , I mean implement 'let' not the equipment
14:05:18	<dminuoso>	well yeah, like I just pointed out.
14:05:22	<lortabac>	'let' is commonly desugared to a lambda in Scheme, but not in Haskell
14:05:52	<dminuoso>	albet70: you could do this exactly as a desugar routine.
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14:06:35	<merijn>	Not really, something with like monomorphism whatsit fancy word thing for let bindings
14:06:38	<albet70>	so let = ?
14:06:46	<merijn>	let polymorphism or whatever it was called
14:06:51	<albet70>	let x in y = v
14:07:00	<albet70>	let x in y = ?
14:07:04	<lortabac>	let polymorphism is not a problem if you typecheck before desugaring
14:07:15	<lortabac>	which is what GHC does IIRC
14:07:24	<albet70>	let definition is?
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14:07:34	<dminuoso>	Things like recursion or mutual recursion require just a bit additional machineryu
14:07:45	<probie>	`let x = y in v` is `(\x -> v) y`
14:07:55	<albet70>	code, please
14:08:07	<albet70>	not equivalent
14:08:55	<albet70>	callCC is a macro in scheme, but a function in haskell
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14:09:59	<probie>	In Haskell `let` doesn't desguar to anything, it's fundamental. It adds no power to the language beyond what already exists, but is still primitive
14:10:29	<dolio>	In GHC, applications to complicated expressions desugar to lets.
14:10:39	<albet70>	probie , so let isn't defined by function?
14:12:17	<probie>	No. It's not defined by a function.
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14:14:15	<apache2>	thanks merijn
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14:36:04	<HackingSpring>	Thanks, chreekat. I'll do that
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14:38:23	<geekosaur>	albet70, if you track compilation down to STG level, you'll find that `let` is a primitive STG operation
14:38:38	<geekosaur>	(-ddump-stg)
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15:12:52	<tomsmeding>	dminuoso: do NOINLINE pragmas even do anything sensible on type class methods
15:13:05	<tomsmeding>	because surely whether it inlines should be a property of the _class_ member, not the _instance_ member
15:13:15	<tomsmeding>	but moving the pragma there yields an error
15:14:27	<dolio>	It's not a property of the class member.
15:14:42	<tomsmeding>	oh no forget what I just said that makes no sense
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15:37:04	<EvanR>	"let x = y in v` is `(\x -> v) y" is false, not just because of STG, but because y may contain x i.e. be a recursive definition?
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15:47:39	<[Leary]>	> (\x k -> k x) (\x k -> k x) $ \let_ -> let_ (\rb k -> k (fix rb)) $ \letrec -> letrec (\zs -> 0:zs) $ \zs -> take 10 zs
15:47:40	<lambdabot>	[0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0]
15:48:02	<[Leary]>	What is broken, need merely be `fix`ed. :)
15:48:12	<lortabac>	EvanR: I guess an imaginary Haskell where 'let' is syntactic sugar would need some recursion primitive such as 'fix'
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16:02:58	<monochrom>	Yes, that's what the Haskell Report does. :)
16:04:37	<monochrom>	Although, it is a bit ambivalent because "let" and {"case", "\"} are treated differently at type checking. ("let" enjoys let-polymorphism.)
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16:05:54	<monochrom>	It is when you're done with type checking and it's safe to ignore types, and you start evaluation, that Haskell Report treats let as case, lambda, application.
16:06:18	<monochrom>	with the help of fix.
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16:06:47	<monochrom>	Although, should be s/evaluation/denotation/
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16:07:20	<EvanR>	dunno why but it seems like "let is just recursive" is simpler xD
16:08:01	<monochrom>	Sure! More people relate to evaluation better than to denotation.
16:08:52	<monochrom>	And since GHC is about running programs not giving programs mathematical meanings...
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16:09:46	<EvanR>	isn't a let binding kind of something that happens before you even get to any math or logic
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16:10:40	<EvanR>	rather, the idea of defining terms to be used
16:11:34	<dolio>	Traditional mathematical practice is actually to pretend that let doesn't exist.
16:11:42	<dolio>	Every definition just gets substituted in.
16:12:43	<dolio>	It's very divorced from the realities of working with/implementing a logic.
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16:17:18	<monochrom>	Creating thunks is a fundamental primitive in lazy evaluation, and this corresponds perfectly with "let".
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16:20:14	<monochrom>	For mathematicians, "let" lives at the meta level, not in the object or structure being studied.
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17:26:24	<Guest\|82>	Using VS Code, how do I save a Haskell file as .hs, and not .txt ?
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17:29:36	<Guest\|82>	The file is now saved as filename.hs.txt How can I change the name to filename.hs?
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17:32:09	<darkling>	Right click on the file and select "rename"? (I'm guessing rfom watching other people use it)
17:32:26	<Guest6>	Hello o/ If somebody has the time and the knowledges to help me, i encounter an issue :
17:32:26	<Guest6>	I have a test suite that run in hspec-wai : https://github.com/hspec/hspec-wai#readme
17:32:27	<Guest6>	In one of my test, i would like to make a regular assertation (hspec Expectation: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hspec-expectations-0.8.2/docs/Test-Hspec-Expectations.html#v:shouldBe), but it dont compile as a WaiExpectation is expected. How can i turn an Expectation into a WaiExpectation ?
17:33:14	<Guest\|82>	ACtually you have to open the View tab and click the filename extensions option. Then Windows lets you do it. Thank you for the reply
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17:57:50	<dminuoso>	tomsmeding: What is interesting, that at first I had the same intuition, that (NO)INLINE'ing should be specified on the class member declaration, not instance member definitions.
17:58:06	<dminuoso>	Do you have any idea as to why that seems more intuitive at first?
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18:02:53	<tomsmeding>	dminuoso: I thought it because I felt that a use of a typeclass method refers to the _class_ method in principle, and that the definition in an instance is only a later instantiation
18:03:24	<tomsmeding>	similar to how a HasCallStack constraint has to be put on the class member, not the instance member
18:03:44	<dminuoso>	To be fair, HasCallStack is about one of the most magical things we have in GHC.
18:03:47	<tomsmeding>	of course this is all nonsense because it's a _definition_ that gets inlined, not a declaration in some class, but we were talking about faulty intuitions :p
18:03:48	<geekosaur>	makes sense to me, the class one is just a pointer, the instance one is the real one
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18:04:11	<tomsmeding>	geekosaur: yeah it makes sense to me now too, but both dminuoso and I apparently briefly thought the opposite
18:04:31	<geekosaur>	but I guess I just automatically think of classes as record declarations and instances as values thereof
18:04:32	<tomsmeding>	dminuoso: right, but the same reasoning applies to any type class
18:04:59	<tomsmeding>	ah, I think this is what my intuition came from
18:05:23	<tomsmeding>	I was thinking about a quantified constraint like `foo :: (forall a. C a) => ...` where `C` has a {-# INLINE #-} method marked so in an instance
18:05:26	<tomsmeding>	that can never work
18:05:38	<tomsmeding>	so, I thought, "clearly" it should go in the class
18:06:18	<tomsmeding>	which is faulty reasoning because it's the same ideas as passing an {-# INLINE #-} marked function to an explicitly polymorphic (higher-rank) argument to a function
18:07:10	<tomsmeding>	both will actually work quite fine, as long as it's clear which instance it's going to be resolved to at compile-time -- which is a prerequisite for inlining _anyway_
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18:19:05	<df>	a
18:19:10	<tomsmeding>	b
18:19:57	<Rembane>	c
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18:20:15	<c_wraith>	there are too many letters for that.
18:20:37	<Rembane>	Do you have a petition to truncate the alphabet?
18:22:08	<c_wraith>	No, I'm petitioning for orthography to accept that ' is a letter
18:22:13	<c_wraith>	Haskell's already there!
18:22:30	<tomsmeding>	the Kazakh alphabet is also already there
18:22:59	<tomsmeding>	and Breton
18:23:16	<tomsmeding>	they have a letter c'h , how cool is that
18:23:35	<c_wraith>	I like that.
18:24:01	<boxscape_>	Alphabets that claim that a sequence of letters is a single letter make me uncomfortable
18:24:56	<dminuoso>	boxscape_: Its just a narrowsighted imagination of what "letter" means
18:25:03	<dminuoso>	Or using that term at all
18:25:30	<boxscape_>	what would you call c'h instead of a "letter"?
18:25:35	<dminuoso>	A grapheme cluster
18:25:40	<boxscape_>	I can live with that
18:25:47	<tomsmeding>	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton_language#Alphabet
18:27:24	<dminuoso>	So Im not a linguistic, but I think that's incorrectly phrased.
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18:29:05	<dminuoso>	boxscape_: or it might even be a digraph
18:29:58	<dminuoso>	Or maybe trigraph, depending on the interpretation of '
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18:30:43	<boxscape_>	seems right, wikipedia says "in some languages' orthographies, digraphs (and occasionally trigraphs) are considered individual letters" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digraph_(orthography) )
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18:44:00	<sclv>	a little self advertisement for a post on my haskell symposium work http://comonad.com/reader/2022/internalized-guarded-recursion-for-equational-reasoning/
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19:52:54	<dminuoso>	Im re-reading SPJs STG paper, and in 3.2.3 he makes a remark: In the push-enter model, all that happens is that three more arguments are pushed on the evaluation stack b efore jumping to f. To put it another way, there are no identiable moments at which a new activation frame should be allocated or reclaimed.
19:53:12	<dminuoso>	Can someone elaborate what he means by activation frame in push-enter?
19:54:47	<HackingSpring>	is anyone currently able to compile ghc HEAD with ghc 9.0 for phase 0? the configure script currently recommends 9.X, but I only got to do it after bumping it up to 9.2
19:55:52	<geekosaur>	the usual rule is two past versions; since HEAD is 9.5 / 9.6-to-be, that implies 9.2 and 9.4 can be used
19:56:23	<geekosaur>	otherwise, ask in #ghc
19:57:00	<HackingSpring>	I see. nice, thanks!
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20:23:53	<sclv>	dminuoso: i think "activation frame" is just another name for "stack frame"
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21:49:20	<dolio>	More specifically, it is a stack frame that corresponds to the lifetime of a function call.
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All times are in UTC on 2022-10-21.