Logs on 2022-10-22 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:42:07 | <hololeap> | anyone know of a package that can simplify general constraints |
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| 00:42:49 | <hololeap> | for instance, talking about version constraints in cabal: [ "ghc >= 8 && ghc <9.1", "ghc >=8.6 && ghc <10"] -> "ghc >= 8.6 && ghc < 9.1" |
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| 00:45:42 | <hololeap> | there has to be a math word for this. searching for "simplify inequalities" isn't giving me what I want |
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| 06:17:56 | <tomsmeding> | hololeap: should it do more than just interval intersection? |
| 06:18:23 | <tomsmeding> | if not, I think "interval arithmetic" is the keyword |
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| 06:20:29 | <tomsmeding> | if yes, https://hackage.haskell.org/package/cabal-install-solver-3.8.1.0/docs/Distribution-Solver-Modular.html :p |
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| 06:25:58 | <tomsmeding> | if you need full cabal constraints, as in every package version can have its own constraint set, then you'll need general backtracking search to solve it -- I'm 99.9% sure that's NP-complete |
| 06:26:11 | <tomsmeding> | feels too easy to reduce any kind of interesting problem to that |
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| 06:43:35 | <sclv> | hololeap: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/Cabal-syntax-3.8.1.0/docs/Distribution-Types-VersionInterval-Legacy.html |
| 06:44:02 | <sclv> | and yes constraint solving is known np complete via 3sat |
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| 08:21:52 | <Franciman> | is there an example of an ADT of kind * -> * which is not a functor? |
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| 08:22:17 | <Franciman> | or better, which can't be made into a functor |
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| 08:30:16 | <[Leary]> | Franciman: Any ADT that uses the type param in a negative position. E.g. `newtype Endo a = Endo (a -> a)` or `newtype Pred a = Pred (a -> Bool)`, though the latter is a contravariant functor. |
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| 08:46:20 | <Franciman> | [Leary]: and if i only use sums and product types? |
| 08:46:22 | <Franciman> | sum* |
| 08:46:25 | <Franciman> | without functions |
| 08:46:28 | <Franciman> | it seems it works |
| 08:48:03 | <[Leary]> | I think they call those polynomial types? Yeah, all their parameters are positive, so it will always be a functor in a final *-kinded param. |
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| 09:09:35 | <Franciman> | thanks [Leary] |
| 09:10:21 | <Franciman> | and for example data Siocan a = Siocan (a -> Bool) a |
| 09:10:31 | <Franciman> | is neither a functor nor a contravariant functor, amiright? |
| 09:13:09 | <Franciman> | o sure |
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| 09:13:11 | <Franciman> | Endo is an example |
| 09:13:14 | <Franciman> | cool |
| 09:13:26 | <Franciman> | negative position is awesome |
| 09:13:50 | <Franciman> | is moves from the actual to the potential |
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| 09:14:02 | <Franciman> | i wonder if laziness has anything to do with negativity |
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| 09:14:11 | <Franciman> | it seems like it renders everything negative, at least implicitly |
| 09:14:15 | <Franciman> | until you force stuff |
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| 10:13:30 | <dminuoso> | Franciman: Im not sure how you interpret positive/negative positions. |
| 10:15:29 | <dminuoso> | If in a definition an argument is in positive position, the definee will pick a value/decide on a value for it, and the consumer/caller will have to deal with some unknown value/choice. If its in negative position, the callee/consumer will pick a value/decide on a value for it, and the definee has to deal with some unknown value/choice. |
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| 10:16:19 | <dminuoso> | Lazyness does not change this. |
| 10:17:42 | <dminuoso> | In case of functors, we call this behavior co and contravariance. So `newtype Pred a = (Pred a -> Bool)` has `a` in a contravariant position, which makes it a contravariant functor. |
| 10:17:53 | <dminuoso> | And in case it appears in both positions, it is said to be invariant. |
| 10:18:08 | <dminuoso> | Like `Siocan a = Siocan (a -> Bool) a` |
| 10:19:48 | <dminuoso> | Note, that if you have two type variables, and one is positive and one is in negative position, then you have whats called a Profunctor. |
| 10:20:09 | <dminuoso> | (So if its contravariant in one argument and covariant in the other, then thats a profunctor |
| 10:20:29 | <dminuoso> | Like (a -> b) is contravariant in `a`, and covariant in b |
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| 10:38:09 | <shapr> | @quote |
| 10:38:09 | <lambdabot> | clarkb says: in CS they dont teach you to program...You learn Data Structures, Algorithms, Logic, Discrete Math, Language theory, etc and happen to pick up programming on the way |
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| 11:32:22 | <MangoIV[m]> | Hi, is there anybody who knows where to find documentation for the newer version of `ghc-lib`? Some types have been moved out but I can't find to where they moved. In Particular `HscEnv` |
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| 11:38:08 | <Franciman> | dminuoso: thanks, i liked it, you are correct |
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| 11:52:12 | <c_wraith> | MangoIV[m]: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-9.4.2/docs/doc-index-H.html (or whatever version you're using) |
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| 12:00:28 | <fendor[m]> | can't I use '-fdefer-type-errors' with undefined? I get this error at run-time https://paste.tomsmeding.com/sd2tfDsA |
| 12:00:45 | <fendor[m]> | (ok it is error, not undefined, but same error message) |
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| 12:20:42 | <int-e> | . o O ( ENOINFO ) |
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| 13:02:20 | <fendor[m]> | I have no idea what other info to include... ghc 8.10.7? It is basically two scripts, one uses tasty, imports the other file and then runs some tests. The other file is written by students to might include bogus stuff, and we use -fdefer-type-errors to make the testsuite survive missing functions |
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| 15:19:14 | <MangoIV[m]> | <c_wraith> "MangoIV: https://hackage.haskell..." <- Thank you very much! |
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| 16:39:10 | <Topsi> | Where can I find the latest decision/status update/discussion with respect to removing return from Monad? |
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| 16:49:18 | <geekosaur> | Topsi, nothing that I can determine has happened since 2017. as I understand it, the current sticking point is you can't use GeneralisedNewtypeDeriving to derive Monad with the new setup? and nobody's come up with a good workaround/fix yet? |
| 16:49:44 | <geekosaur> | or is that the Join-based one? |
| 16:49:49 | <geekosaur> | er, join* |
| 16:50:14 | <geekosaur> | we have too many potential proposals in flight and they're all stalled as far as I can tell |
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| 16:52:43 | <geekosaur> | there was also significant backlash at too many non-backward-compatible changes in too short a time, although the proposal was reworked to provide better backward compatibility |
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| 16:53:34 | <Topsi> | All I can find is the wiki entry in the GHC repository. I am wondering whether the CLC has discussed this since -Wnoncanonical-monad-instances is now enabled by default in GHC 9.2. |
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| 16:54:08 | <geekosaur> | I'm on their mailing list and have seen no such discussion |
| 16:54:26 | <geekosaur> | they may have more private discussion channels though |
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| 16:56:23 | <Topsi> | and yes, I think the GeneralizedNewtypeDeriving issue was related to whether join belongs to Monad |
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| 17:23:35 | <hololeap> | why would you remove return from monad? |
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| 17:24:23 | <hololeap> | I get that it has been superceded by pure, but return is one of the natural transformations that define a monad |
| 17:25:24 | <hololeap> | and it's referenced a ton in tutorials/whatnot |
| 17:26:05 | <monochrom> | The alternative view is "I get that it's one of the ..., but it has been superceded". |
| 17:26:05 | <hololeap> | it's not hurting anything by its existence |
| 17:26:32 | <geekosaur> | once removed it would be brought back as a global using the Applicative definition, and ghc would be modified to quietly ignore `instance Applicative X => Monad X where return = pure; ...` |
| 17:26:52 | <monochrom> | The tie breaker though can be what you point out about existing tutorials. |
| 17:27:06 | <geekosaur> | and potentially it is hurting something because by existing it allows someone to define return differently from pure, which breaks the laws |
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| 17:28:18 | <hololeap> | I get it, but it seems to me like a real nitpick that doesn't cause any real-world problems |
| 17:28:26 | <hololeap> | I could be wrong, of course |
| 17:28:57 | <monochrom> | Isn't this why no one has really acted on it? :) |
| 17:29:12 | <hololeap> | fair enough, I just hadn't heard of the debate until now |
| 17:29:57 | <monochrom> | someone has a thought => someone posts a proposal => but it's pretty bland and meh => 10 years and nothing happens |
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| 17:30:07 | <geekosaur> | actually it *is* being acted on. -Wnoncanonical-monad-instances is default as of 9.2 |
| 17:30:22 | <geekosaur> | which means you get a warning if your return isn't the same as pure |
| 17:30:45 | <hololeap> | *that* seems like the reasonable solution |
| 17:30:47 | <geekosaur> | so it's moving, just slowly |
| 17:31:56 | <hololeap> | I suppose the other issue is that people expect it to act like return from other languages, which is more what guard does in haskell |
| 17:32:18 | <hololeap> | assuming it's a MonadPlus |
| 17:32:36 | <geekosaur> | actually that won't be affected |
| 17:32:50 | <geekosaur> | the ultimate resolution has a global `return = pure` |
| 17:33:02 | <geekosaur> | so it'll still be there, just not part of Monad any more |
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| 17:46:25 | <fendor[m]> | Ok, now I have a minimal reproducible example. https://paste.tomsmeding.com/MeBh6Jr9 This works with ghc-8.6.5, but not with ghc 8.10.7. What's going on here? |
| 17:48:22 | <fendor[m]> | added a comment that the code is run with '-fdefer-type-errors' https://paste.tomsmeding.com/BCRtMNjA |
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| 17:49:27 | <geekosaur> | basically what it says, I think? you have an explicit signature minus `HasCallStack` constraint, whereas `error` these days is `errorWithStackTrace` and expects `HasCallStack` |
| 17:49:57 | <geekosaur> | in 8.6.5 it just gave a truncated stack trace |
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| 17:52:17 | <geekosaur> | I suspect this means defer-type-errors doesn't play well with CallStacks |
| 17:52:32 | <geekosaur> | might be a question for #ghc |
| 17:52:43 | <fendor[m]> | 8.6.5 comes with 4.12.0.0 which should already have a HasCallStack instance https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.12.0.0/docs/Prelude.html#v:error |
| 17:53:18 | <geekosaur> | but `fun` is just `Int -> Int`, not `HasCallStack => Int -> Int` |
| 17:53:51 | <fendor[m]> | right, but so far this didn't matter |
| 17:54:07 | <fendor[m]> | I can try adding this plugin that adds a HasCallStack constraint to all top-level functions |
| 17:54:24 | <geekosaur> | that's what O was saying. in 8.6.5 it didn't, in 8.10.7 I think error now demands it |
| 17:55:01 | <geekosaur> | which is why I suggested defer-type-errors doesn't play well with the callstack stuff, because it seems like this should be deferred but implicit parameters are odd beasts |
| 17:55:16 | <geekosaur> | they're parameters that look like type constraints |
| 17:55:17 | <fendor[m]> | no wait, it works if you delete `bar`, which uses the unknown function |
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| 17:56:03 | <fendor[m]> | but yeah, maybe it is a weird interaction with defer-type-errors and implicit params |
| 17:56:17 | <fendor[m]> | Going to ask in ghc irc |
| 17:56:21 | <geekosaur> | HasCallStack is a highly magical implicit param |
| 17:56:52 | <geekosaur> | if you call a function that has a HasCallStack constraint, as bar does, ghc inserts a callstack entry automatically |
| 17:57:14 | <geekosaur> | into the call of fun from bar |
| 17:57:45 | <geekosaur> | this is what's going wrong in my read, possibly because of defer-type-errors interfering with the weird HasCallStack machinery |
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| 17:58:24 | <fendor[m]> | but bar isn't called at all |
| 17:58:40 | <fendor[m]> | I am trying again with ghc 9.4.2, then I am off the #ghc 😄 |
| 17:59:17 | <fendor[m]> | ghc 9.4.2 works correctly again |
| 17:59:28 | <fendor[m]> | that pains me |
| 17:59:44 | <geekosaur> | doesn't matter, it's the codegen for its call to foo that does the mahic callstack stuff. or as here throws an exception instead |
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| 18:02:00 | <fendor[m]> | really confusing stuff, and I'd hoped to never interact with implicit parameters 😢 |
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| 18:03:39 | <fendor[m]> | I don't understand at all, do you think adding more HasCallStack constraints would help? |
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| 18:04:28 | <geekosaur> | I'm partly worried it would just bubble the problem into HUnit |
| 18:05:07 | <fendor[m]> | it seems to be working |
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| 18:48:10 | <geekosaur> | do you perhaps mean the `make…` functionality here https://hackage.haskell.org/package/deriving-compat-0.6.1/docs/Data-Deriving.html ? |
| 18:48:21 | <geekosaur> | whioops, channel |
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| 18:51:08 | <geekosaur> | hah, not even irc, it was on -cafe. derp |
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| 19:40:03 | → | Guest6 joins (~Guest6@host-79-35-170-83.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 19:40:28 | <Guest6> | @pl \ f g x-> f $ g x |
| 19:40:28 | <lambdabot> | (.) |
| 19:40:36 | <Guest6> | @unpl (.) |
| 19:40:36 | <lambdabot> | (\ f g x -> f (g x)) |
| 19:40:44 | <Guest6> | @unpl (.)(.) |
| 19:40:44 | <lambdabot> | (\ g x g0 x0 -> g x (g0 x0)) |
| 19:40:55 | <Guest6> | @unpl (.).(.) |
| 19:40:55 | <lambdabot> | (\ x g x0 x1 -> x (g x0 x1)) |
| 19:41:05 | <Guest6> | @unpl ((.).(.)) |
| 19:41:05 | <lambdabot> | (\ x g x0 x1 -> x (g x0 x1)) |
| 19:41:12 | → | axeman joins (~quassel@2a02:8109:a380:78:9f8:88b5:58b5:d2f3) |
| 19:41:48 | <Guest6> | @unpl ((.)$(.)) |
| 19:41:48 | <lambdabot> | (\ g x g0 x0 -> g x (g0 x0)) |
| 19:42:00 | <Guest6> | @unpl (($)$(.)) |
| 19:42:00 | <lambdabot> | (\ f g x -> f (g x)) |
| 19:42:08 | <Guest6> | @unpl ((.)$($)) |
| 19:42:08 | <lambdabot> | (\ g -> g) |
| 19:42:15 | <Guest6> | @unpl (($)$($)) |
| 19:42:15 | <lambdabot> | (\ f -> f) |
| 19:42:23 | <Guest6> | @unpl (($).($)) |
| 19:42:24 | <lambdabot> | (\ x -> x) |
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| 19:42:45 | <Guest6> | @unpl ... |
| 19:42:45 | <lambdabot> | <unknown>.hs:1:1:Parse error: ... |
| 19:43:09 | <Guest6> | @unpl (...) |
| 19:43:09 | <lambdabot> | (...) |
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| 19:43:24 | <Guest6> | @unpl <$ |
| 19:43:24 | <lambdabot> | <unknown>.hs:1:1:Parse error: <$ |
| 19:43:37 | <Guest6> | @unpl (<$) |
| 19:43:38 | <lambdabot> | (<$) |
| 19:43:44 | <Guest6> | @unpl (<$>) |
| 19:43:44 | <lambdabot> | (<$>) |
| 19:44:08 | <Guest6> | @unpl (&) |
| 19:44:08 | <lambdabot> | (&) |
| 19:44:15 | <Guest6> | @unpl ($) |
| 19:44:15 | <lambdabot> | (\ f -> f) |
| 19:44:23 | <boxscape_> | Guest6: fyi, you can also experiment with lambdabot in private messages if you prefer |
| 19:44:44 | <Guest6> | boxscape_ how do i do that? |
| 19:45:06 | <boxscape_> | Guest6: type "/query lambdabot" and a private message tab should probably open |
| 19:45:26 | <Guest6> | boxscape_ thanks |
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| 20:10:51 | <hololeap> | geekosaur: derps happen. be ready. |
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All times are in UTC on 2022-10-22.