Logs on 2022-10-23 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 02:30:41 | <c209e6dc-4d76-47> | has anyone used haskell-hood recently, I was trying to write some code using it |
| 02:30:45 | <c209e6dc-4d76-47> | Hugs.Observe |
| 02:30:59 | <c209e6dc-4d76-47> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hood |
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| 05:21:13 | money | is now known as Guest2631 |
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| 12:18:58 | <geekosaur> | @tell c209e6dc-4d76-47> hood is badly bitrotted, and I would expect the Hugs.* modules to only work with Hugs, not GHC |
| 12:18:58 | <lambdabot> | Consider it noted. |
| 12:19:14 | <geekosaur> | @tell c209e6dc-4d76-47 hood is badly bitrotted, and I would expect the Hugs.* modules to only work with Hugs, not GHC |
| 12:19:15 | <lambdabot> | Consider it noted. |
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| 18:33:56 | <talismanick> | Is `ghcup compile hls --git-ref master --ghc 9.2.4 -- -fbrittany` the correct command to rebuild the language server with the Brittany plugin enabled? |
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| 18:36:51 | <Guest6> | Hello o/ If somebody has the time and the knowledges to help me, i encounter an issue : |
| 18:36:59 | <Guest6> | I have a test suite that run in hspec-wai : https://github.com/hspec/hspec-wai#readme |
| 18:37:05 | <Guest6> | In one of my test, i would like to make a regular assertation (hspec Expectation: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hspec-expectations-0.8.2/docs/Test-Hspec-Expectations.html#v:shouldBe), but it dont compile as a WaiExpectation is expected. How can i turn an Expectation into a WaiExpectation ? |
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| 19:05:01 | <Guest16> | If Data.Text is an Array internally why is indexing a Char O(n)? |
| 19:05:54 | <c_wraith> | Guest16: because it's UTF-8 |
| 19:06:00 | <geekosaur> | because a char is not guaranteed to be one cell |
| 19:06:08 | <c_wraith> | (or if you're on older versions, UTF-16) |
| 19:06:24 | <Guest16> | So it has to traverse the whole array understand where the n-th Char starts? |
| 19:06:33 | <geekosaur> | yes |
| 19:06:43 | <[exa]> | Guest16: sad truth about variable-length encodings, yes |
| 19:06:54 | <Guest16> | got it, thanks |
| 19:06:59 | <c_wraith> | Well. It has to traverse some prefix of the array. |
| 19:07:04 | <c_wraith> | But that could be up to the whole thing |
| 19:08:29 | <Guest16> | How do other languages handle this? Do they use a fixed-length encoding? |
| 19:08:32 | <[exa]> | Guest16: you might want to go with something like Vector Char or so. Also, I didn't check but I'd expect there might even be better structures for that |
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| 19:09:21 | <[exa]> | Guest16: depends a lot on the language. For example Julia does: "ě"[2] => ERROR: StringIndexError: invalid index [2], valid nearby indices [1]=>'ě', [3]=>'ě' |
| 19:10:07 | <Guest16> | that's not good |
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| 19:10:26 | <[exa]> | not sure if it's better or worse than the silent ignorance of many other languages :D |
| 19:11:13 | <c_wraith> | java has different methods for returning a 16-bit char vs a 32-bit codepoint. the former is O(1), the latter O(n) |
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| 19:11:35 | <geekosaur> | C/C++ will happily give you an internal byte without any warning |
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| 19:11:41 | <c_wraith> | this matches up with Java using a utf-16 representation |
| 19:11:59 | <[exa]> | parseltongue indexes by byte too |
| 19:12:08 | <Guest16> | String really are more dangerous than I thought. |
| 19:12:40 | <[exa]> | Guest16: btw what's your usecase? there might be ways around |
| 19:13:24 | <c_wraith> | I laugh when people mock languages for having a lot of String types, because... it turns out you need a lot of String types if you want to write correct and efficient software |
| 19:13:48 | <Guest16> | exa: exercises like isPalindrome |
| 19:14:06 | <c_wraith> | exercises like that only make sense in a couple languages anyway |
| 19:14:21 | <c_wraith> | you never see someone talk about Arabic palindromes |
| 19:15:22 | <c_wraith> | if you're doing palindromes, you might as well specify you're only using a subset of ASCII. maybe 32-126. |
| 19:16:21 | <Guest16> | Is it a good idea to "Data.Vector.fromList str" and then operate on the Char Vector? I pay O(n) upfront but if it's safer. |
| 19:17:25 | <[exa]> | Guest16: that's actually a good exercise for Text.foldr' |
| 19:18:34 | <[exa]> | Guest16: anyway yeah if you _really_ need to randomly index stuff, converting to Vector is okay and the O(n) doesn't really hurt because you usually already paid the O(n) for loading the string. |
| 19:20:07 | <[exa]> | (there might be a packed variant of the Vector for chars) |
| 19:20:35 | <tomsmeding> | yeah, Char is Storable |
| 19:20:46 | <Guest16> | Does packed mean strict or no indirection? |
| 19:20:56 | <tomsmeding> | both |
| 19:21:07 | <tomsmeding> | but you can't get "no indirection" without "strict" |
| 19:21:24 | <tomsmeding> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/vector-0.13.0.0/docs/Data-Vector-Storable.html |
| 19:22:07 | <tomsmeding> | a normal vector from Data.Vector still has a pointer to the heap element in each cell; a Data.Vector.Storable vector stores everything in one single byte buffer |
| 19:23:20 | <[exa]> | single byte? |
| 19:23:27 | <tomsmeding> | associativity |
| 19:23:29 | <tomsmeding> | single (byte buffer) |
| 19:23:32 | <tomsmeding> | not (single byte) buffer |
| 19:23:33 | <tomsmeding> | ;) |
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| 19:23:55 | <c_wraith> | be careful with thinking Storable vectors are automatically efficient. you often end up calling functions that do a lot of marshalling and unmarshalling that... reapplies indirections. |
| 19:23:59 | <[exa]> | ok I got worried. :D |
| 19:24:11 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: in your Julia example, how can indices 1 and 3 both yield ě |
| 19:24:28 | <[exa]> | tomsmeding: ě is 2 bytes, and the indexes........start at 1 |
| 19:24:42 | <tomsmeding> | yeah but how can index 3 yield the same thing |
| 19:24:51 | <[exa]> | oh what wait |
| 19:24:57 | <[exa]> | my other ě disappeared |
| 19:25:06 | <tomsmeding> | oh the string had length 2? lol |
| 19:25:07 | <[exa]> | it was "ěěěěěěě"[2] |
| 19:25:10 | <tomsmeding> | :') |
| 19:25:17 | <tomsmeding> | right that makes more sense |
| 19:25:21 | <[exa]> | yap, sorry |
| 19:25:38 | <[exa]> | (strings are dangerous, disappear without warning) |
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| 19:27:11 | <Guest16> | tomsmeding: How do I if GHC puts something on the stack or heap. Is it in the report? |
| 19:27:15 | <Guest16> | know |
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| 19:29:30 | <tomsmeding> | Guest16: no, the report only says something about what the code should mean, not how the language should be implemented |
| 19:30:09 | <tomsmeding> | but in general, "unboxed" means that there is no separate heap allocation |
| 19:30:29 | <tomsmeding> | and the documentation here at the top shows the general interpretations of the various kinds of vectors https://hackage.haskell.org/package/vector |
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| 19:39:44 | <geekosaur> | also "stack" isn't really a thing in GHC. there's a pattern matching stack, and there's a stack for FFI calls, but in general you don't have stuff on a stack like you would in other languages |
| 19:40:28 | <geekosaur> | evaluation of lazy languages follows a very different pattern than you're used to |
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| 19:55:07 | <isamiamsam> | what hackage library data structure could i use to represent a non-empty sequence plus a valid index (iterator) into it? |
| 19:55:42 | <c_wraith> | What operations do you want to support efficiently? |
| 19:56:33 | <isamiamsam> | just iterate through in a loop (so find successor plus find beginning would be good) |
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| 19:59:07 | <c_wraith> | do you care about making updates to it? |
| 19:59:12 | <isamiamsam> | no |
| 20:00:42 | <c_wraith> | Then... doesn't Data.List.NonEmpty do the job already? |
| 20:01:28 | <c_wraith> | (just keep the original around for when you need to go back to the beginning) |
| 20:02:11 | <isamiamsam> | does that support indexes that are guaranteed valid? |
| 20:02:25 | <c_wraith> | it has a head that's guaranteed to be present |
| 20:02:37 | <c_wraith> | that's the distinguished element |
| 20:07:02 | <isamiamsam> | hm. well yes it does do the job i had in mind actually. since the list doesn't actually get updated i don't need the explicit index i was thinking of originally. i guess i'm still curious if there's something else that does support that though |
| 20:07:18 | <c_wraith> | Oh, there are things that do. But why pay for complexity you don't need? |
| 20:07:57 | <isamiamsam> | i guess i just want to know how to avoid !! should the temptation ever arise |
| 20:08:00 | <[exa]> | isamiamsam: if you want fast indexing, you can go either Vector (forget about inserting/removing elements but indexes are O(1)) or Data.Seq (everything is O(log(n))-ish) |
| 20:08:39 | <[exa]> | also Data.Seq is nicely implemented in a way that operations on either end are veeeeery close to O(1) |
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| 20:29:01 | <cheater> | hello |
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| 20:31:15 | <geekosaur> | hello |
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| 20:34:51 | <cheater> | what's the current nice way to read stuff line by line from stdin? the lines aren't long, but there might be a bunch of them. i don't want them to hang around for the remainder of my program's runtime. |
| 20:35:46 | <geekosaur> | the way you read them isn't going to affect that. what you do with them after reading will. |
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| 20:36:12 | <geekosaur> | getLine is the usual way to read line by line |
| 20:36:53 | <cheater> | hrm, that's right |
| 20:37:24 | <cheater> | i want to parse the lines into strings, ints, and the likes. |
| 20:39:00 | <geekosaur> | I'd generally write some kind of parser in that case. many people use megaparsec, but there's been a lot of discussion of flatparse in here of late |
| 20:39:29 | <cheater> | yeah, i'd use that. however, it's csv, so i'm thinking there should be a lib for that. i'll look that up. |
| 20:40:04 | <c_wraith> | cassava is the csv library I see mentioned most |
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| 20:42:55 | <cheater> | yeah, i think i've used that one before. thanks |
| 20:44:56 | <underdas> | So, I'm trying to start a new project by following Write Yourself a Scheme in 48 Hours (the original), but wanted to use Cabal, and Megaparsec instead of Parsec |
| 20:45:04 | <underdas> | I see there's a build depends, like this: |
| 20:45:23 | <underdas> | build-depends: base ^>=4.17.0.0 |
| 20:45:45 | <underdas> | But, how would you add more? It doesn't seem structured for a list? Sorry for the basic question lol |
| 20:45:56 | <underdas> | Currentl reading the cabal docs atm, but it seems unclear to me |
| 20:46:04 | <underdas> | Although very detailed in other respects |
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| 20:52:56 | <codolio> | It is a list. |
| 20:53:42 | <codolio> | Here's a slightly more complicated one: https://github.com/haskell/vector/blob/master/vector/vector.cabal#L142 |
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| 20:55:38 | <underdas> | Thanks for the example. It's clear. So, to add a package, would you just go to Hackage, find the current version, and add it to the build-depends list? |
| 20:56:00 | <dolio> | Yeah. |
| 20:56:26 | <underdas> | That makes sense, then, thanks |
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| 21:42:35 | <mastarija> | In Diagrams library, how can place a diagram in a fixed size box and align my diagrams bounding box to the top left corner of my fixed size box? |
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| 22:38:36 | <Guest51> | I'm new to the `machines` library. `Tee` lets me write a machine that uses two input streams. What's the best way to write one that uses three or more? I assume there's a better way than just rewriting `tee` to use `data T3 = C1 | C2 | C3` but idk what it would be |
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| 22:40:28 | <dsal> | I was going to ask if one of the things could be a Tee, but missed my chance. |
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| 22:41:50 | <jackdk> | I would combine tees, but I know nothing of this library. If I was combining way more than three, I might make an effort to produce a balanced tree of tees instead of a big list |
| 22:45:03 | <Guest51> | I don't think that would work in the general case. My reasoning is that, once you combine two input streams with one Tee, you can no longer choose the order in which you take values from them. (You can think of a machine as being a conduit but with the ability to read more than 1 input stream) |
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| 23:05:59 | <dsal> | If that works for two, then why wouldn't it work if one of the two was also two? |
| 23:07:05 | <dsal> | In any case, yeah, making a special type for N is probably a good step after 2. I don't think I'd do anything special for 3. |
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| 23:10:11 | <paulpaul1076> | hey everyone, i started learning haskell, and when i type in an example from the book by Graham Hutton I get an error saying "non-exhaustive patterns in function" |
| 23:10:25 | <paulpaul1076> | sum [] = 0 |
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| 23:10:31 | <paulpaul1076> | sum (x:xs) = x + sum xs |
| 23:10:40 | <paulpaul1076> | what is non-exhaustive about this definition? |
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| 23:10:54 | <c_wraith> | ghci treats each line as a separate definition |
| 23:11:10 | <c_wraith> | The example is intended to be put in a file, not entered into ghci |
| 23:11:17 | <paulpaul1076> | oh, i see, let me try |
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| 23:13:02 | <hpc> | you can do multiline inputs with :{ and :}, but bleh |
| 23:13:04 | <paulpaul1076> | it worked thanks! i was using haskell for mac IDE's playground, it uses ghci |
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| 23:14:32 | <c_wraith> | yeah, ghci works a bit differently from ghc, in terms of how definitions are entered there. It's often good to use a file for definitions plus ghci for experimenting with them. |
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| 23:15:58 | <paulpaul1076> | https://stackoverflow.com/questions/2846050/how-to-define-a-function-in-ghci-across-multiple-lines |
| 23:16:07 | <paulpaul1076> | seems like you can do ":set +m" |
| 23:16:24 | <geekosaur> | yes, that's a different kind of multiline input mode |
| 23:16:34 | <geekosaur> | it requires you to hit enter twice in most cases |
| 23:16:53 | <c_wraith> | Or you can use :{ and :} to start end end multiline mode in ghci. Or you can use semicolons to put everything on one line. |
| 23:16:56 | <geekosaur> | otherwise it just keeps adding to the current "definition" |
| 23:17:22 | <c_wraith> | But I really like having a file. It makes restarting your experiments much easier |
| 23:17:24 | <hpc> | ultimately :r is the easiest |
| 23:17:32 | <hpc> | yeah |
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| 23:18:10 | <paulpaul1076> | thanks, i will try it out as well |
| 23:18:10 | <geekosaur> | also if you enter stuff at the prompt the only way to go back and collect it later is to dig it out of the history file |
| 23:18:24 | <paulpaul1076> | how do you guys code in haskell, do you use text editors or some ide? |
| 23:18:28 | <geekosaur> | can't save source, can't save current workspace, etc. |
| 23:19:01 | <geekosaur> | I switch between emacs (with haskell-mode but no IDE support) and vscode (with IDE support) |
| 23:19:04 | <hpc> | all vim all the time |
| 23:19:35 | <hpc> | no plugins or anything |
| 23:19:55 | <paulpaul1076> | and you use haskell professionally? I use scala, but i find myself writing non-functional code all the time, so I decided to learn a bit of haskell |
| 23:21:26 | <c_wraith> | Many of us have at one point or another. Most probably aren't at this moment. |
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| 23:22:55 | <dsal> | I do Haskell professionally. Just emacs. |
| 23:23:02 | <dsal> | I keep meaning to do something with vscode, but it's never stuck. |
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| 23:25:14 | <hpc> | dsal: same, i never quite get to the point where more IDE-like features would help me more than just being brutally efficient at text editing |
| 23:25:25 | <paulpaul1076> | I've always wondered why people use emacs and vim. Isn't vscode better and easier to use? (sorry, I've only been a programmer for 5 years professionally, maybe most of you have been programming for a long time and vim and emacs is what you're used to) |
| 23:25:31 | <hpc> | (plus i write in too many other languages) |
| 23:25:58 | <geekosaur> | I've been using vi and variants since 1982 and emacs since 1987 |
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| 23:26:07 | <hpc> | i can't speak for emacs, but vim's command language is an entire... language |
| 23:26:23 | <dsal> | hpc: yeah. I never really learned most of emacs. heh. But I can remember my goals |
| 23:26:26 | <geekosaur> | emacs has its own bloody lisp dialect |
| 23:26:57 | <dsal> | The only time I felt that I *needed* an IDE professionally was when I was doing Java and the ecosystem basically pushed requirements into tooling. |
| 23:27:01 | <hpc> | as you learn it, the amount of stuff you can do instantly just grows and grows |
| 23:27:36 | <dsal> | I've been using vscode for tla+ because it's a lot better at it than the tla+ tools. |
| 23:27:42 | <geekosaur> | also vscode is, quite honestly, *slower* |
| 23:28:30 | <hpc> | and vim/emacs are at full power without any configuration, and more likely to be pre-installed |
| 23:28:47 | <paulpaul1076> | I recently had to search for text in a 4 gb text file, vscode wasn't able to open it, the only text editor that worked was sublime text (i didn't try vim or emacs) |
| 23:29:11 | <dsal> | Pretty sure I just wouldn't try that in a text editor. |
| 23:29:22 | <hpc> | at that point i would just grep it |
| 23:29:58 | <paulpaul1076> | true, but i was asked to help a non-technical person with this text searching stuff |
| 23:30:08 | <paulpaul1076> | who uses windows |
| 23:31:28 | <dsal> | emacs has this cool feature where if you try to open a large file, it just says "seriously?" and then you can tell it that you want to do things that aren't good ideas. :) I use it with tens of megs. I do have some pretty good tools for that sort of thing, but I'd probably just fix the "I have a 4GB text file" thing first. :) |
| 23:32:11 | <geekosaur> | sometimes the right tool for the job is split |
| 23:34:12 | <olivermead[m]> | <paulpaul1076> "I recently had to search for..." <- yeh vim would have been fine, emacs would have chugged a bit |
| 23:34:46 | <geekosaur> | (I also remember bfs from before the visual editor days. ed but read only and worked in chunks. then again, 4GB was bigger than your disk back then…) |
| 23:35:34 | <paulpaul1076> | I see, maybe I'll learn it if I have the time, although I don't know if it'll be useful for me. The only argument I've heard for learning vim is that we have to ssh into servers nowadays and have to be able to edit files there, but I already do that with nano. |
| 23:36:00 | <dsal> | I use emacs on my mac to edit files remotely on my other machines. |
| 23:36:20 | <dsal> | Or emacs there. Or sometimes vi. Depends on what I'm doing. |
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| 23:43:24 | <yushyin> | paulpaul1076: the text editing features of vim are useful if you don't have a decent IDE support for the language you're writing for yet or if the language doesn't benefit much from it. also there are languages i wouldn't want to write without IDE features either. |
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| 23:45:47 | <jle`> | nshepperd2: hey, how's it going :) saw your name show up in a blog post and was wondering if i could ask about a haskell snippet |
| 23:46:11 | <paulpaul1076> | 👍🏻 thanks. I'll look into it, does that mean that vim supports some kind of config files that can define keywords to highlight syntax? |
| 23:46:18 | <jle`> | in https://www.gwern.net/Problem-14#haskell is this solution correctly labeled as O(l) space? as soon as you call the nested generate we're already in O(l^2) right? |
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| 23:54:40 | <Guest62> | hello, i have a question |
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| 23:56:00 | <Guest62> | is there a way to use a fold but to work on two consecutive elements of a list instead of one? |
| 23:57:19 | <Guest62> | for instance, [1,2,3,4] turned into [1-0, 2-1, 3-2, 4-3] through a fold ? |
| 23:57:53 | <jle`> | Guest62: simplest way for lists is probably to zip with its tail |
| 23:57:55 | <jackdk> | I generally zip the list against its own tail |
| 23:58:04 | <Guest62> | ok ty |
| 23:58:04 | <jle`> | > let xs = [1,2,3,4] in zip xs (drop 1 xs) |
| 23:58:06 | <lambdabot> | [(1,2),(2,3),(3,4)] |
| 23:58:10 | <hpc> | @quote aztec.god |
| 23:58:10 | <lambdabot> | quicksilver says: zip`ap`tail - the Aztec god of consecutive numbers |
| 23:58:32 | <jle`> | > let xs = [1,2,3,4] in map (\(a, b) -> b - a) (zip xs (drop 1 xs)) |
| 23:58:33 | <lambdabot> | [1,1,1] |
| 23:58:44 | <jle`> | or you could fold instead of map |
| 23:59:21 | <Guest62> | great |
| 23:59:24 | <Guest62> | ty |
All times are in UTC on 2022-10-23.