Logs on 2022-11-02 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:15:01	<cheater>	dmj`: i was looking in the wrong place. of course GHC.IO.Exception contains all the constructors... thanks
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08:47:45	<lortabac>	is there a way to force the recompilation of a single file?
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08:48:55	<lortabac>	I have a module that I would like to recompile on every build
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09:28:49	<dminuoso>	lortabac: Set -fforce-recomp (perhaps in a OPTIONS_GHC pragma in the module
09:29:04	<dminuoso>	Mind my asking, what's the reason you want this?
09:29:55	<dminuoso>	If by any chance you're depending on a file in TemplateHaskell (which is one of the two things I can conceive, the other being depending on some non-file resource), you can also just use `addDependentFile`
09:30:50	<lortabac>	dminuoso: I embed the Git hash with TemplateHaskell
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09:31:13	<lortabac>	I want it to be accurate even if I don't recompile everything
09:31:14	<dminuoso>	Then: {-# OPTIONS_GHC -fforce-recomp #-}
09:32:00	<lortabac>	it doesn't seem to work
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09:33:01	<lortabac>	which makes sense, because the pragma is only read if that file is recompiled
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09:34:09	<dminuoso>	Do you use stack or cabal?
09:34:26	<lortabac>	cabal
09:34:55	<dminuoso>	You could add a .git directory or a particular git internal file to extra-source-files in your cabal file, and then `addDependentFile`that same file/directory
09:35:05	<dminuoso>	Im not sure whether a suitable file exists (and whether using it on a directory will either)
09:35:33	<dminuoso>	Keep in mind, that using a glob in cabal extra-source-files for this will not work except on the newest cabal versions (that is the interaction with addDependentFile)
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09:36:31	<dminuoso>	.git/HEAD seems like a good bet
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09:37:23	<dminuoso>	Do note however, that addDependentFile requires template-haskell >= 2.7.0
09:37:28	<lortabac>	good idea
09:37:51	<lortabac>	it also has the advantage of not requiring Git on the machine where the build is done
09:38:36	<dminuoso>	(Though that template-haskell version corresponds to GHC 7.4 I think)
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09:39:38	<lortabac>	I'm on GHC 9.2
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09:47:23	<lortabac>	apparently the 'gitrev' library (the one I use) already calls addDependentFile on .git/HEAD
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09:49:31	<lortabac>	I think I'll stop here, it's not a big deal if the revision is not 100% accurate during development
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09:55:33	<kuribas>	regarding number of bugs, I find myself writing a few thousand lines of haskell code with only a handful of problems, but for dynamic code, it's just tens of lines.
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09:58:24	<chromoblob>	kuribas: what do you mean by "dynamic code", is it code in dynamically typed lang?
09:59:13	<kuribas>	yes
09:59:21	<kuribas>	clojure/python/javascript
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09:59:23	<kuribas>	...
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10:00:21	<kuribas>	because I hear the argument to many times, "you can have (business logic) bugs in typed languages too".
10:00:38	<chromoblob>	kuribas: do you happen to write C++ ?
10:00:47	<kuribas>	true, but it seems like orders of magnitudes less.
10:00:52	<kuribas>	chromoblob: long time ago :)
10:01:22	<chromoblob>	if you can remember, what was the rate of bugs for it, to compare?
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10:19:20	<kuribas>	chromoblob: much more than haskell
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11:30:09	<dminuoso>	cheater: I would just use the standard Control.Exception (or better Control.Exceptions.Safe) mechanisms, and perhaps ideally keep other exceptions in IO
11:30:21	<cheater>	k
11:30:22	<cheater>	thanks
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11:30:37	<cheater>	what's the difference between this and dmj`'s approach?
11:30:37	<dminuoso>	Sometimes I think there's a bit of a irrational fear against IO and exceptions in the Haskell community
11:30:51	<cheater>	what does "keep exceptions in IO" mean?
11:31:00	<dminuoso>	cheater: Well tryIOError is just a thin wrapper around catch
11:31:10	<cheater>	oh. ok
11:31:18	<dminuoso>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.17.0.0/docs/src/System.IO.Error.html#tryIOError
11:31:25	<dminuoso>	See? It's really just catch in disguise
11:33:25	<dminuoso>	% import Control.Exception
11:33:25	<yahb2>	<no output>
11:33:27	<dminuoso>	% :t catch
11:33:27	<yahb2>	catch :: Exception e => IO a -> (e -> IO a) -> IO a
11:34:57	<dminuoso>	catch (Right <$> f) (\(e :: IOError) -> pure (Left ...))
11:35:11	<dminuoso>	Or with `handle` (or catches), depending on the ergonomics
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11:50:11	<siers>	what's a "stricly positive functor"? is that about variance?
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11:52:14	<[exa]>	siers: maybe this? https://cstheory.stackexchange.com/questions/46280/semantic-definition-of-strict-positivity-for-a-functor
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11:54:05	<[exa]>	but tbh I can't find any actual written definition
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11:58:26	<siers>	in this case it seems that he removed the recursivity https://okmij.org/ftp/tagless-final/course/Boehm-Berarducci.html
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12:00:48	<siers>	and I guess the "(a functor built from constants, sums and products)" is the definition
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12:09:44	<Lears>	siers: Unrelated language, but this is actually the best read I've found on strictly positive data types: https://docs.juvix.org/notes/strictly-positive-data-types.html
12:10:23	<Lears>	I'm assuming functor is used orthogonally.
12:11:55	<siers>	yeah, I was thinking of something like that
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12:11:59	<siers>	ok, good enough for me
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15:35:54	<Guest61>	Hello, Im having trouble with one of Dr. Yorgeys hw assignments.. can someone give me a nudge in the right direction? https://www.cis.upenn.edu/~cis1940/spring13/hw/07-folds-monoids.pdf, Excercise 2
15:36:40	<Guest61>	Specifically this line "This can then be used at each step to determine if the desired index is in the left or the right branch."
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15:38:05	<Guest61>	If the root node of the tree is Apppend (Sized 7) jl1 jl2, how does knowing the number 7 tell me which subtree to look into??
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15:39:33	<Guest61>	Here's the data type defitnion of the tree https://paste.tomsmeding.com/p4cVU7nM
15:39:57	<tomsmeding>	Guest61: can't you use the size of the left subtree?
15:40:08	<tomsmeding>	i.e. check whether the index is less than that size
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15:50:57	<Guest61>	If you can, im not seeing how that works...is there a precondition for this to work that im missing maybe? Like the tree needs to be balanced
15:51:02	<Guest61>	tomsmeding
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15:54:22	<Guest61>	Lets say the monoid annoitation at the root is (Sized 11), and my given index is 3, the left subtree is (Append (Sized 5) (lt)(rt)) and my right subtree is (Append (Sized 5) (lt) (rt)).
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15:54:41	<Guest61>	Which subtree do I take?
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16:01:35	ski	. o O ( "10 Most(ly dead) Influential Programming Languages" by Hillel Wayne in 2020-03-25 at <https://hillelwayne.com/post/influential-dead-languages/> )
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16:11:18	<byorgey>	Guest71: it's not the monoid annotation at the root that helps, but the ones on the left and right subtrees. If you're looking for the 7th thing but the left subtree has size only 5, where should you look? What if you're looking for the 2nd thing?
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16:13:42	<Guest61>	byorgey Intuitevly that makes sense, but what if both the left and right subtrees both have the same size?
16:15:00	<c_wraith>	only one set of elements is the first set.
16:15:16	<c_wraith>	The tree is ordered
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16:16:51	<Guest61>	c_wraith im sorry im not quite understanding this statement "only one set of elements is the first set"
16:17:12	<Guest61>	Do you mind rephrasing that?
16:17:30	<c_wraith>	If you're looking for the 4th element in the tree, where do you start counting from?
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16:17:42	<Guest61>	the left
16:17:53	<c_wraith>	So.. all the things on the left come before all the things on the right?
16:18:01	<Guest61>	true
16:18:16	<c_wraith>	so you don't care about the relative sizes of the subtrees.
16:18:28	<c_wraith>	You just care if the element you're looking for is in the left
16:19:53	<c_wraith>	If you're looking for the 4th element and the left subtree has 2 things in it? go to the right. If you're looking for the 4th element and the left subtree has 10 things in it? go to the left
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16:20:16	<c_wraith>	(do be careful to count the node you're at, though)
16:22:36	<Guest61>	If your looking for the 2ns element the left subtree has 3 things and the right subtree has 4 things, which way do you go
16:22:41	<Guest61>	2md*
16:22:43	<Guest61>	2nd*
16:23:16	<c_wraith>	well, all the elements on the left come before all the elements on the right
16:23:26	<Guest61>	according to what im hearing, I would go left? but turns out the index is in the right
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16:23:57	<c_wraith>	Well. Are you doing a BST search or an index lookup?
16:24:20	<c_wraith>	those are different operations, and they have different rules
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16:25:31	<Guest61>	Index look up... my understanding is the only rule is that the tree must be balanced
16:27:20	<c_wraith>	balanced is a third separate idea. It makes sure either kind of lookup is efficient, but they should be correct whether it's balanced or not
16:30:02	<Guest61>	thanks for sticking around, i made a graphical representaiton maybe itll help me oujt
16:30:05	<Guest61>	https://paste.tomsmeding.com/KdjfSyxn
16:30:20	<Guest61>	Im looking for index 2
16:31:21	<Guest61>	If Both the left subtree and right subtree have sizes bigger than my index, I should by default go left right? but then that would lead me to the wrong answer
16:31:38	<c_wraith>	When you go right, you have to make some adjustments
16:32:21	<c_wraith>	Let's take your example there. If you're going for index 5 in the original tree, you can see by the size of the left subtree that it isn't there.
16:32:38	<Guest61>	agreed
16:32:43	<c_wraith>	So you need to look in the right subtree. But you're not looking for the 5th element of the right subtree
16:33:01	<c_wraith>	you already skipped the 3 elements to the left and the root
16:33:43	<c_wraith>	So you're only looking for index 1 in the right subtree
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16:35:40	<Guest61>	I think were getting somewhere... can we use index 2 on my example?
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16:37:05	<c_wraith>	Go for it.
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16:37:56	<Guest61>	ok so the left tree has a size of 3
16:38:09	<Guest61>	the right tree has a size of 4
16:38:38	<Guest61>	Im gonna go left because the left subtree is bigger?
16:38:47	<Guest61>	smaller**
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16:39:00	<Guest61>	and my index is less then that size
16:40:00	<c_wraith>	You should never compare the sizes of the subtrees to each other.
16:40:27	<c_wraith>	If you're looking for index 2 and the left subtree has size 4, does it matter if the right subtree has size 3 or 30000?
16:41:00	<Guest61>	no
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16:41:32	<Guest61>	and sorry i was suggesting that I was comparing the sizes... I meant, I check the LT first and I see that its size is greater than my index
16:41:40	<Guest61>	so I go to the left... are we on the same page?
16:41:43	<c_wraith>	yep!
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16:42:26	<Guest61>	Now Again I look at my LT, and its a Single! the index is 0 so thats not it
16:42:30	<c_wraith>	One quick question: is the left-most element 0 or 1? Both are common, and I don't actually know, but it is important for the details of my example
16:42:41	<c_wraith>	ah, 0. ok
16:42:59	<c_wraith>	err, your example. how did I type that backwards?
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16:43:30	<Guest61>	Ok so now I look at my RT, and its a single, the index is 1 and thats not it either?
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16:43:40	<Guest61>	So the index doesnt exist?
16:44:20	<c_wraith>	when you go into a right subtree, you're going to need to adjust the index you're looking for
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16:44:49	<c_wraith>	because you've skipped some elements
16:45:21	<c_wraith>	In that case, you know it's not the left subtree, nor is the node you're currently looking at
16:45:43	<c_wraith>	Oh, hmm.
16:46:05	<c_wraith>	You only have data in the leaves? Your Size calculations look off in that case
16:46:40	<c_wraith>	Yeah, ok. that's a problem.
16:46:44	<Guest61>	I believe thats the only way these Monoid Annotated trees work?
16:47:02	<Guest61>	Atleast thats how I interpreted the hw assignment thus far; I could have got lost somewhere
16:47:18	<c_wraith>	well, I guess it's not completely a problem. The number of leaves is always the number of internal nodes plus one
16:47:30	<c_wraith>	so you can convert between total nodes and leaves
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16:47:44	<c_wraith>	But this is awkward, because you need to do that
16:48:20	<c_wraith>	You're starting with the index of a particular leaf, not a particular node, aren't you?
16:48:21	<Guest61>	Ok so whats wrong with my size calculations? Am i not supposed to include the size of the node itself?
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16:49:16	<Guest61>	I suppose I have no idea where the indexes are supposed to go... my assumption was that you put the indexes in the leaves from left to right
16:49:37	<Guest61>	then to calculate the size of a node, you calculate the size of that tree
16:50:12	<c_wraith>	Each of those things can make perfect sense. They're a little awkward to combine, though that's fully possible.
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16:51:55	<c_wraith>	they are different measures. You can convert between them with the tiniest bit of arithmetic, but you need to be sure you're doing the right things.
16:53:05	<c_wraith>	Shoot, I've got to run. But I think you've got the basic idea, you just need to work through the details and make sure they all line up together.
16:53:19	<Guest61>	thanks for the help
16:53:56	<Guest61>	Still stuck btw but i will revisit this with a fresh mind
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17:35:40	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	the primary reason i see for people wanting to use a language such as C, C++, rust, etc is "performance". my question is whether you can build software in haskell and have a "human compiler" translate sections of the design to whatever performance-oriented implementation without breaking the underlying architecture
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17:38:21	<geekosaur>	you can write parts in other languages and use FFI to fit them together. you can even have the C parts call back into haskell.
17:38:44	<geekosaur>	there's also inline-c which does pretty much what its name says
17:39:15	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	i know that i can do FFI, and i can imagine that there may be simple C functions which map well onto something like haskell (especially when no currying is involved), so it is just f : a -> b
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17:40:13	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	so you just define your types a and b in C and then your function sending a to b
17:40:46	<Guest53>	Is there "state of haskell ecosystem report" for 2022?
17:41:20	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	but my question has to do with whether you can always draw a sensible boundary (i suppose delineated by specific functions? i'm not quite sure how the boundary would be drawn), and then say, here is my haskell implementation, and if i flip this switch, here is Melissa's implementation of that functionality
17:41:23	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	in C
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17:49:24	<yin>	hls can correctly highlight every occurence of a symbol but can't rename it?
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17:50:09	<yin>	it's too basic of a feature to be missing
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17:53:03	<[exa]>	yin: isn't that more of an editor feature?
17:53:20	<[exa]>	Guest53: good question tbh
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17:55:56	<tomsmeding>	[exa]: it's a language server feature, other language servers tend to support it
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17:58:21	<tomsmeding>	yin: renaming of a local variable works for me
17:58:51	<tomsmeding>	and renaming of non-exported top-level bindings works too
17:58:59	<tomsmeding>	it's just project-wide renames that are unsupporte
17:59:00	<tomsmeding>	d
17:59:30	<yin>	let me try
17:59:42	<sm>	I think the author stopped making those State Of Haskell reports
18:00:38	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	do you mean this? https://haskellweekly.news/survey/2022.html
18:00:39	<yin>	tomsmeding: what's the name of the action for renaming local variables?
18:00:43	<yin>	i'm trying coc-rename
18:01:08	<tomsmeding>	yin: I'm... not sure about coc, in neovim's built-in language server implementation it's vim.lsp.buf.rename(), whicih sounds like "the default rename stuff"
18:02:25	<sm>	am I thinking of Stephen Diehl ? I think so, it's hard to tell because I think some of his Haskell stuff has gone offline
18:02:33	<sm>	https://github.com/Gabriella439/post-rfc/blob/main/sotu.md#state-of-the-haskell-ecosystem has had a few small update this year
18:02:47	<yin>	i considered vim's native lsp but i read that is wasn't as robust as coc
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18:03:07	<sm>	but yes there's also that survey segfaultfizzbuzz mentions
18:03:29	<tomsmeding>	yin: it's certainly less featureful, but it works for me /shrug/
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18:10:47	<tomsmeding>	yin: it's just textDocument/rename from the LSP protocol
18:11:01	<tomsmeding>	what error are you getting?
18:11:44	<yin>	no error. just nothing happening after i type the new name
18:11:55	<yin>	rename doesn't happen
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18:13:42	<tomsmeding>	odd
18:13:59	<tomsmeding>	can you get a log of LSP messages exchanged between coc and hls?
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18:14:24	<drsooch[m]>	Make sure rename plug-in is enabled in your HLS version
18:14:50	<tomsmeding>	I guess that's a valuable thing to check, but I'd at least expect an error if that was the issue
18:15:22	<tomsmeding>	(haskell-language-server-YOURVERSION --list-plugins)
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18:17:29	<tomsmeding>	interesting, I see there's a config option for the 'rename' plugin called 'crossModule', which defaults to False
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18:18:31	<yin>	rename is enabled. i don't know how to get a log of lsp/coc exchanges
18:19:23	<yin>	i'm finding coc to be overkill anyways. might just use vim's native lsp
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18:27:42	<tomsmeding>	yin: try :CocOpenLog
18:30:56	<chromobl1b>	can haskell detect loops? i want to write let x = 1 + 0.5 * x in x :: R and have it call fixR (\x -> 1 + 0.5 * x) where fixR isn't just fix
18:31:04	<chromobl1b>	impossible?
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18:32:49	<chromobl1b>	without Template Haskell
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18:35:42	<geekosaur>	not at compile time
18:36:45	<chromobl1b>	i mean, somehow rewrite the expression to the fixR expression
18:36:51	<geekosaur>	and at runtime it'll discover it by triggering it, and if you're lucky producing "Exception: <<loop>>"
18:37:08	<geekosaur>	yes, that's why I said "not at compile time"
18:37:25	<olivermead[m]>	better write some tests
18:39:54	<tomsmeding>	chromobl1b: what you describe is a meaning-changing code change; haskell doesn't know the implementation of Num for the data type in question (because that implementation might be in a different module which was already compiled beforehand)
18:40:13	<tomsmeding>	so it can't know when to do something like this and when not
18:40:47	<tomsmeding>	because it is possible to write the Num instance (in strange ways, sure) in such a way that `let x = 1 + 0.5 * x in x` actually does something useful
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18:41:22	<tomsmeding>	https://www.joachim-breitner.de/blog/792-More_recursive_definitions
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18:41:31	<chromobl1b>	yes, it will return something like (1 + 0.5 * (1 + 0.5 * (...)))
18:41:50	<chromobl1b>	i was hoping that loops could be detected
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18:42:29	<tomsmeding>	not sure what to answer on whether they _can_ be detected, but in any case, GHC doesn't :p
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18:44:03	<EvanR>	% let x = x in x
18:44:14	<EvanR>	% > let x = x in x
18:44:31	<EvanR>	yaaaaaaahb
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18:45:27	<EvanR>	chromobl1b, if you mean detect loops and fail to compile, what if you wanted a loop
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18:45:52	<chromobl1b>	i mean detect loops and insert fixR at loop points
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18:46:56	<chromobl1b>	because fixR (\x -> 1 + 0.5 * x) can solve the equation x = 1 + 0.5x (at least i think so)
18:47:33	<EvanR>	taking normal code and inserting stuff invisibly sounds bad
18:47:43	<EvanR>	in context
18:47:56	<EvanR>	but we have template haskell which takes template-looking code and inserts stuff
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18:49:50	<monochrom>	If you know denotational semantics, the correct solution to x=1+0.5*x is bottom.
18:50:22	<monochrom>	In this context, your notion of "useful" is subjective.
18:50:28	<chromobl1b>	R isn't just Float, you know
18:50:41	<monochrom>	I know.
18:51:13	<tomsmeding>	monochrom: not necessarily if the Num instance of R uses some well-crafted unsafePerformIO
18:51:44	<tomsmeding>	chromobl1b: monochrom's point is: if you mean fixR, write fixR :p
18:52:49	<monochrom>	So let's take an example that's even relevant for Bool, shall we?
18:53:44	<monochrom>	If you know denotational semantics, the correct solution to x = x && False is bottom.
18:54:52	<chromobl1b>	by the way! a few days ago i wanted to know, is (\|\|) possible to define such that True \|\| bottom = bottom \|\| True = True?
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18:55:12	<tomsmeding>	no, because how are you going to check whether the argument is bottom?
18:55:18	<tomsmeding>	is an infinite loop bottom?
18:56:18	<chromobl1b>	it kind of starts computation of both arguments in parallel and when any one returns True, it returns True
18:56:27	<monochrom>	Look up "parallel or" aka "por" and its difficulty in fitting into sequential computing.
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18:56:49	<tomsmeding>	chromobl1b: that you can do, but only in IO -- because the result could depend on execution order, i.e. is not pure code
18:57:27	<chromobl1b>	monochrom: Google fails me
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18:59:42	<yin>	> let (\|\|) = const . const True in True \|\| undefined
18:59:43	<lambdabot>	True
18:59:47	<yin>	> let (\|\|) = const . const True in undefined \|\| True
18:59:48	<lambdabot>	True
19:00:26	<chromoblob>	nooo
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19:01:45	<yin>	technically yes
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19:14:43	<tomsmeding>	% let x = x in x -- EvanR I fixed yahb2
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19:15:39	<chromoblob>	need to extend coroutines again :)
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19:19:45	<tomsmeding>	EvanR: funny thing is that the code was clearly broken, infinite loops hung the whole thing without fail
19:20:02	<tomsmeding>	no clue how I tested this code and did not run into this
19:22:40	<darkling>	I guess that's a step up from "how did this test ever pass?"
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19:24:08	<tomsmeding>	step down, because said testing was manual
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19:25:16	<gqplox>	hello
19:25:30	<darkling>	tomsmeding: I... don't know what to say.
19:26:35	<gqplox>	i am a beginner. i am trying to make a table type or data. Basically I want to initialise the table to have say 4 colums but in those columns i want to be able to put different things
19:26:43	<gqplox>	How would I be able to do this?
19:27:12	<[exa]>	gqplox: that depends a lot on the stuff you want to store in the table. Is that like a "data frame" from pandas/R?
19:27:25	<gqplox>	Like I table with 3 columns of "date", "name", "kcal" could be represented as [(String, String, Int)] I guess, but I might want to change it
19:27:40	<gqplox>	Wait let me share a screenshow to explain, is that ok?
19:27:50	<[exa]>	better to use pastebin to share the code
19:28:16	<[exa]>	https://paste.tomsmeding.com is the usual one we use here
19:28:58	<chromoblob>	gqplox: change it when?
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19:29:51	<gqplox>	http://sprunge.us/Nip9Ap
19:30:24	<darkling>	gqplox: Also, change it how -- do you want to change the number of rows, the number of columns, or the contents of exiting cells?
19:30:35	<gqplox>	So Basically in python I called the table like table = Table(headers=headers) where headers is a list of strings
19:30:45	<[exa]>	gqplox: you could probably make a type like `data Food = Food { foodName::String, foodKcal :: Int, ......}`
19:30:50	<gqplox>	but i would store all the data of the table in an array of arrays
19:30:54	<gqplox>	and keep the datatype
19:31:06	<gqplox>	eg, so later on i can take the total of any items that are Numeric for example is what i want
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19:31:49	<gqplox>	when the table is created it should be made according to fields specified, only new entries will be added
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19:32:20	<darkling>	If all the non-heading cells are the same data type (which they are in your example, it's a list of column headings, and a list of rows, where each row is a (String, [Double]) tuple.
19:32:36	<gqplox>	and then later I will make a printTable function to print it as an ascii table
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19:33:52	<[exa]>	gqplox: ah so you want "dynamic" list of properties for each of the entries, right?
19:35:45	<gqplox>	Sorry for poorly explaining guys. Basically I have all this food data stored as a csv file, and then I want to print this data out as an ascii table on demand. For example, the csv has a field for `salt`, but sometimes I might not want to show the salt column when displaying the table. So ideally something wihch I can change the cols for when creating the table on demand for the first time
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19:36:05	<gqplox>	Actually since I am a beginner I can maybe just start out with the assumption that everything will be the same cols
19:36:15	<gqplox>	In that case, the recommended way is to use data?
19:36:25	<[exa]>	ah okay. You are reading the csv with the `csv` package?
19:36:46	<darkling>	I think the main thing I'd say in your use case is to separte out the column headings and row headings as separate things (as I said above)
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19:37:35	<darkling>	s/separte/separate/
19:38:20	<[exa]>	anyway the good&bad property of haskell here is that it will require you to have your code statically typed, which might get a bit inconvenient -- in python, you start e.g. adding up the numbers and end up with a TypeError only in case something gets wrong depending on (dynamic) data contents; here you get the TypeError just because it's possible
19:38:56	<gqplox>	I don't really know how to read/write stuff yet I'm just trying to piece together whatever i can hehe, I thought it would be best to start with the table as i can mock up the data in ghci
19:39:14	<gqplox>	Okay thank you guys, Ill have a go using your suggestions and come back in a bit
19:39:37	<[exa]>	gqplox: there's a `csv` package btw that is kinda useful for CSVs
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19:41:33	<[exa]>	gqplox: but dataframes ain't that much popular outside python&R(&maybe Julia) because of the type properties. If you want to simulate them, you can end up with something like `type MyTable = [(String, MyColumn)]; data MyColumn = StringColumn [String] \| IntColumn [Int] \| FloatColumn [Float] \| ...`
19:41:51	<[exa]>	(which is AFAIK roughly how pythons and R's actually do that internally)
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19:44:39	<gqplox>	ah right thank you
19:44:58	<gqplox>	type Row = (String, [Integer])
19:45:20	<chromoblob>	i like [exa]'s approach more
19:45:22	<gqplox>	i do ghci table.hs is says ok loaded, but i try to do :t Row and it gives error how come?
19:45:42	<chromoblob>	:t Int
19:45:43	<lambdabot>	error:
19:45:43	<lambdabot>	• Data constructor not in scope: Int
19:45:43	<lambdabot>	• Perhaps you meant variable ‘int’ (imported from Text.PrettyPrint.HughesPJ)
19:46:18	<chromoblob>	because the type Row and the constructor Row are different things, and :t is for expressions, not types
19:46:20	<gqplox>	<interactive>:1:1: error:
19:46:21	<gqplox>	• Illegal term-level use of the type constructor ‘Row’
19:46:21	<gqplox>	defined at table.hs:1:1
19:46:21	<gqplox>	• In the expression: Row
19:46:51	<chromoblob>	":t expr" is "give me type of expression expr"
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19:47:02	<chromoblob>	and Row is type itself, not an expression
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19:47:15	<[exa]>	gqplox: usually it's best to type the code into a source file for easier editing, and only test that with ghci (use :r to reload what you edited)
19:47:21	<geekosaur>	Row is an alias for the type (String,[Integer])
19:47:58	<gqplox>	ghci> :t ("hello", [1,2,3])
19:47:58	<gqplox>	("hello", [1,2,3]) :: Num a => (String, [a])
19:47:58	<gqplox>	ghci> :t ("hello", [1,2,3]) :: Row
19:47:58	<gqplox>	("hello", [1,2,3]) :: Row :: Row
19:48:00	<gqplox>	ah i get it
19:48:04	<gqplox>	thank you
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19:49:16	<chromoblob>	gqplox: note that integer literals like 1 do not always mean an Integer; an 1 is anything Num instance is defined for
19:49:38	<gqplox>	ah right, thx
19:49:41	<geekosaur>	> 1 :: Int
19:49:43	<lambdabot>	1
19:49:46	<chromoblob>	("hello", [1,2,3] :: [Integer]) will give you right type
19:49:47	<geekosaur>	> 1 :: Double
19:49:49	<lambdabot>	1.0
19:49:53	<gqplox>	oh right because i can cast it as whatever
19:50:09	<geekosaur>	or ("hello", [1,2,3]) :: Row
19:50:23	<chromoblob>	it's not casting though, it's just specifying a type
19:50:43	<gqplox>	right
19:50:44	<chromoblob>	casting is changing a type, and is explicit
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19:51:03	<geekosaur>	it's not really a cast, it's a specifier (I usually call it a type ascription). "Num a => a" means the compiler is ready to give it any type that has a Num instance; you're just specifying which one to use
19:51:19	<gqplox>	yep that's what I mean, I got the terminology wrong
19:51:20	<gqplox>	thank you
19:51:25	<geekosaur>	fromIntegral is how you'd actually convert a number to a different type
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19:51:44	<geekosaur>	ewll, an integral number. there's also fromRational and realToFrac among others
19:52:39	ski	low fours geekosaur for "type ascription"
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19:53:40	<ski>	@type fromInteger
19:53:41	<lambdabot>	Num a => Integer -> a
19:53:45	<ski>	@type fromIntgral
19:53:46	<lambdabot>	error:
19:53:46	<lambdabot>	• Variable not in scope: fromIntgral
19:53:46	<lambdabot>	• Perhaps you meant ‘fromIntegral’ (imported from Prelude)
19:53:51	<ski>	@type fromIntegral
19:53:52	<lambdabot>	(Integral a, Num b) => a -> b
19:53:59	<ski>	@type fromRational
19:54:00	<lambdabot>	Fractional a => Rational -> a
19:54:05	<ski>	@type realToFrac
19:54:06	<lambdabot>	(Real a, Fractional b) => a -> b
19:55:31	<ski>	`fromIntegral' or `realToFrac' are usually the numeric conversions you reach for. apart from `floor',`ceiling',`round',`truncate', that is
19:57:04	<ski>	if you type `123' then this actually means `fromInteger 123', where that `123' has type `Integer' (and is not recursively expanded to `fromInteger (fromInteger 123)', ad nauseam ..)
19:57:34	<ski>	ditto for decimal numeric literals / numerals, `123.45' means `fromRational 123.45'
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19:58:34	<chromoblob>	> 123.45 :: Rational
19:58:36	<lambdabot>	2469 % 20
19:58:42	<gqplox>	so is there a way to ah nice thank you
19:58:52	<gqplox>	oops that was from before
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20:03:03	<chromoblob>	general :: (forall a . [a] -> [a]) -> MyColumn -> MyColumn; general f (StringColumn s) = StringColumn (f s); general f (IntColumn i) = IntColumn (f i); ...
20:05:15	<chromoblob>	useGeneral :: (forall a . [a] -> [a]) -> MyTable -> MyTable; useGeneral f rows = map (second f) rows
20:06:44	<chromoblob>	gqplox: ^ this is how you could perform row operations on columns, e.g. to remove second row, use: useGeneral (\(r1:r2:rs) -> r1:rs) myTable
20:06:56	<chromoblob>	second is from Control.Arrow
20:07:21	[exa]	remembers Generic.Data.Surgery
20:11:34	<chromoblob>	oops i should have called 'rows' 'cols'
20:11:49	<chromoblob>	but it should work
20:13:12	ski	was wondering ..
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20:15:46	<chromoblob>	useGeneral f cols = map (second (general f)) cols
20:15:50	<chromoblob>	fixed
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20:17:01	<ski>	useGeneral = map . second . general
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20:17:25	<ski>	(presumably doesn't work, due to rank-2 and lack of impredicative types with `.' ?)
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20:51:54	<chromoblob>	i have another problem, let spread k kt f t = f t + k * spread k kt f (t * kt). given that f :: R -> R is defined around zero and -1 < k < 1, spread k kt f t is undefined at t = 0 but has a limit for t -> 0. i would like to get it defined there, i don't know where to insert fix and which type would the fix even have
20:53:52	<NemesisD>	i'm trying to use a function foo that has a type parameter c of kind Constraint. i'm trying to use type applications to specify the constraint concisely. foo @Show works fine. however i actually need to specify multiple constraints: i.e. foo @(Show, Eq). how can i do this?
20:54:30	<chromoblob>	i mean i know it can have type ((R -> R -> (R -> R) -> R) -> (R -> R -> (R -> R) -> R)) -> R -> R -> (R -> R) -> R but i don't know how to write it, and whether this form would be most efficient
20:54:48	<tomsmeding>	chromoblob: `fix` is not the right tool here, you're trying to get convergence in the reals, whereas `fix` gives you convergence in some unrelated functional domain
20:55:03	<tomsmeding>	> fix (1:) -- fix gives you this
20:55:05	<lambdabot>	[1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1...
20:55:11	<chromoblob>	yes, i do mean not usual fix
20:56:00	<tomsmeding>	NemesisD: I don't think you can, just like (Maybe, Either String) isn't suddenly a functor
20:56:28	<tomsmeding>	but you can do `class (Show a, Eq a) => MyThings a ; instance (Show a, Eq a) => MyThings a` and then use @MyThings
20:56:52	<tomsmeding>	just like you can `data MyFunctors a = MyFunctors (Maybe a) (Either String a) deriving (Functor)`
20:56:59	<tomsmeding>	you have to make a new name
20:57:00	<chromoblob>	i mean i need to write this "fix" myself
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20:58:34	<NemesisD>	@tomsmeding yeah i tried that. it did work but it's kind of cumbersome to do that all the time, so i was wondering if there was some library or machinery to make combining constraints on the fly a bit easier. i'm trying to constraints in the barbies library: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/barbies-2.0.3.1/docs/Data-Functor-Barbie.html#g:7
20:58:34	<lambdabot>	Unknown command, try @list
20:58:39	<tomsmeding>	chromoblob: what would that type mean?
20:58:57	<tomsmeding>	what are those "two reals and a R->R function"
20:59:19	<chromoblob>	the two reals are k and kt, and the function is f, in definition of spread
20:59:31	<NemesisD>	i feel like the library authors probably thought of a way to specify product constraints since only being able to specify 1 constraint is a huge limitation but im stuck
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21:00:04	<tomsmeding>	% class (c1 a, c2 a) => Both c1 c2 a
21:00:04	<yahb2>	<interactive>:4:1: error: ; • Potential superclass cycle for ‘Both’ ; one of whose superclass constraints is headed by a type variable: ; ‘c1 a’ ; Use UndecidableSuperCl...
21:00:17	<tomsmeding>	% :set -XUndecidableSuperClasses -XMultiParamTypeClasses -XConstraintKinds
21:00:17	<yahb2>	<no output>
21:00:21	<tomsmeding>	% class (c1 a, c2 a) => Both c1 c2 a
21:00:21	<yahb2>	<no output>
21:00:29	<tomsmeding>	% instance (c1 a, c2 a) => Both c1 c2 a
21:00:29	<yahb2>	<no output>
21:00:39	<tomsmeding>	% :k Both Show Eq
21:00:39	<yahb2>	Both Show Eq :: * -> Constraint
21:00:40	<geekosaur>	are we sure just doing `type ShowEq a = (Show a, Eq a)` doesn't work?
21:00:42	<tomsmeding>	NemesisD: ^
21:01:59	<tomsmeding>	geekosaur: The type synonym ‘ShowEq’ should have 1 argument, but has been given none
21:02:27	<NemesisD>	yeah, getting the same thing
21:02:30	<geekosaur>	oh, I think that may need LiberalTypeSynonyms to defer that check
21:02:45	<geekosaur>	or maybe this si too type-trickery-ey for it
21:03:21	<tomsmeding>	geekosaur: LiberalTypeSynonyms doesn't help on 9.2.4
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21:03:31	<geekosaur>	oh well
21:05:01	<NemesisD>	i was looking at the constraints package since it's probably in my transitive dependencies but i couldn't quite make sense of it
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21:11:11	<chromoblob>	ok, i forgot last t parameter in that type
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21:15:31	<ski>	chromoblob : that type looks a bit CPSy
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21:16:40	<tomsmeding>	chromoblob: am I correct if I say that spread k kt f t ~= \sum_{i=0}^\infty k^i * f(t * kt^i)
21:17:10	<chromoblob>	i don't know the language of these tags
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21:17:48	<tomsmeding>	I'm trying to write TeX :p
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21:20:55	<olivermead[m]>	probably best to render it elsewhere and copy the image in
21:21:41	<darkling>	Image? This is IRC! ;)
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21:22:06	<darkling>	(Well, it is over here...)
21:22:16	<olivermead[m]>	of course I forget these things are bridged everywhere
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21:22:50	<olivermead[m]>	greetings from matrix (element) 👋
21:22:57	<ski>	Haskell IRC channel has been a thing since 2001, or so
21:23:10	<darkling>	We get extra info on this side: you have [m] at the end of your nick to tell us where you come from.
21:23:33	<ski>	(we were merely around ten to twenty people, at that time, though, iirc)
21:24:04	<tomsmeding>	chromoblob: I'm claiming this https://tomsmeding.com/ss/get/tomsmeding/Cp7mUY
21:25:01	<chromoblob>	i think it is so
21:25:42	<chromoblob>	but the (* kt) is just one way to "morph" the f
21:26:53	<olivermead[m]>	darkling: damned outsiders the lot of us
21:26:59	<chromoblob>	i don't want "symbolic transformation" or equivalent of it performed by the programmer
21:27:27	<tomsmeding>	chromoblob: you're asking about numerical and algebraic algorithms; this is a haskell channel, you'll probably have more success elsewhere :p
21:27:42	<tomsmeding>	for FP things this is the right place
21:27:55	<tomsmeding>	other things you can try, but less chance of success :p
21:28:05	<darkling>	olivermead[m]: We are all outsiders. The amount of Haskell I actually write is minimal. I'm here for the jokes and the discrete maths.
21:28:28	<tomsmeding>	darkling: nice subtle emphasis on 'discrete'
21:29:41	<chromoblob>	i feel that my question is "haskelly"
21:29:46	<olivermead[m]>	darkling: discrete being the area within mathematics and not being sneaky with the maths, I assume?
21:30:12	<darkling>	Either works?
21:30:42	<tomsmeding>	chromoblob: the mathy part of your question is how to go from such a function specification to an algorithm that converges to a sensible value
21:30:42	<chromoblob>	it's about how to generally write such "fixes"
21:30:54	<tomsmeding>	the haskelly part is how to make that algorithm run magically
21:31:21	<tomsmeding>	and the most relevant answer to the haskelly part is I think this https://www.joachim-breitner.de/blog/792-More_recursive_definitions
21:31:35	<tomsmeding>	but it's not quite where you want it yet
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21:33:19	<tomsmeding>	chromoblob: if you feel like watching a talk instead of reading a post, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NElOY3Ufsts
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21:36:26	<EvanR>	darkling, and then when the code involves mainly functors there's a change it's not necessarily discrete anymore
21:36:32	<EvanR>	chance
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21:37:06	<darkling>	I'm sure it's pretty in-your-face by that point. :)
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21:38:11	<gqplox>	hello guys again
21:38:26	<darkling>	(I'm writing code to automatically refactor context-free grammars right now. I'm not sure I can cope with functors at the same time)
21:39:13	<ski>	like left-factoring and left-recursion-elimination ?
21:39:25	<darkling>	Yeah, exactly that.
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21:39:53	<darkling>	I've got several papers on the left-corner transformation upstairs. That's the next big challenge.
21:40:20	<ski>	that (the latter) is similar to doing bottom-up rather than top-down evaluation, in a logic programming / deductive database context
21:40:40	<darkling>	Not sure I need it for the code I was actually trying to write when I went down this rabbit hole, but it's probably worth playing with. :)
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21:41:06	<heinz19>	Is there a sorting algorithm that only has one loop or recursion instead of many?
21:41:43	<darkling>	Other than bucket-sort, probably not.
21:41:58	<ski>	general sorting isn't linear
21:42:27	<olivermead>	heinz19: if you find one please tell us, and the rest of the computer science world
21:42:42	<darkling>	General sorting is provably O(n log n) at best, so you've got some kind of recursion or extra looping beyond one loop.
21:43:09	<heinz19>	bogosort
21:43:41	<darkling>	There, the extra looping is in the generation of the permutations. :)
21:43:53	<heinz19>	Spaghetti sort
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21:44:23	<olivermead>	monkey sort, bogosort, all the same
21:44:24	<gqplox>	could someone please explain a better way to do this im sure it's like a one liner
21:44:30	<gqplox>	warning this is like the worst haskell ever
21:44:32	<gqplox>	http://sprunge.us/cUZtTU
21:44:49	<darkling>	heinz19: Parallel sorts can be O(n), yes.
21:45:36	<olivermead>	gqplox: the nested `where` clauses would be the first thing to refactor
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21:47:11	<gqplox>	in which way do you mean? like is it bad form to have nested wheres?
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21:47:34	<gqplox>	initially there were all top level but i thought to put it inside because those are only helper functions needed for the main function
21:47:51	<ski>	rowLengths = (map . map) length rs
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21:48:37	<olivermead>	gqplox: unless the inner inner functions rely on scope from the nesting, it's not necessary to have more than one `where`
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21:48:49	<olivermead>	just 1 where with multiple bindings
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21:49:05	<gqplox>	ah right thanks oliver
21:49:19	<ski>	they depend on `rs', at least
21:49:24	<gqplox>	i did it to make clear that the atIndex/listMax are only needed inside maxAtIndex
21:49:34	<gqplox>	but i will just keep them all outside
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21:49:37	<olivermead>	gqplox: also see ski's rowLength definition
21:49:38	<ski>	(`rowLengths', anyway)
21:49:52	<olivermead>	yes that
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21:49:58	<gqplox>	oh yeah that's cool
21:50:04	<gqplox>	double map
21:50:30	<gqplox>	yeah i have basically just done definition of map in the list comprehensionb
21:50:34	<ski>	rowLengths = map (map length) rs -- same thing, of course
21:50:36	<gqplox>	thanks
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21:51:06	<gqplox>	yeah I feel more comfortable with the later way of writing it
21:51:10	<gqplox>	thank you
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21:54:42	<ski>	rPaddings = map listMax . transpose . (map . map) length
21:55:37	<ski>	rPaddings = map (listMax . map length) . transpose
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21:57:46	<ski>	paddingLengths hs rs = (map (maximum . map length) . transpose) (hs:rs)
21:57:54	<ski>	gqplox ^
21:58:25	<gqplox>	wow
21:58:45	<ski>	one-liney enough for you ?
21:58:51	<gqplox>	:)
21:58:52	<olivermead>	haskell really has a way about it sometimes
21:58:53	<gqplox>	that's so cool
21:59:14	<geekosaur>	and then you come back in 6 months and go "wtf?"
21:59:22	<ski>	;)
21:59:34	<gqplox>	oh nice i didn't know about maximum only max that's useful
21:59:41	<olivermead>	comments and descriptive identifiers are indeed advised
21:59:47	<ski>	note that `maximum' fails for empty list, though
22:00:00	<gqplox>	so i need to do import Data.List to use transpose?
22:00:03	<ski>	but with `hs:rs', the lists won't be empty
22:00:15	<ski>	@index transpose
22:00:15	<lambdabot>	GHC.OldList, Data.List, Data.ByteString.Lazy, Data.ByteString.Lazy.Char8, Data.ByteString, Data.ByteString.Char8
22:00:20	<ski>	yep
22:00:38	<ski>	@src transpose
22:00:38	<lambdabot>	transpose [] = []
22:00:38	<lambdabot>	transpose ([] : xss) = transpose xss
22:00:38	<lambdabot>	transpose ((x:xs) : xss) = (x : [h \| (h:t) <- xss]) : transpose (xs : [ t \| (h:t) <- xss])
22:00:41	<ski>	bah
22:01:21	<ski>	> foldr (zipWith (:)) (repeat []) ["foo","bar","baz","bla"]
22:01:23	<lambdabot>	["fbbb","oaal","orza"]
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22:05:06	<gqplox>	ski please may you write the equivalent for the paddingLengths with the brackets if it's not too much trouble
22:05:37	<ski>	brackets ?
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22:06:14	<gqplox>	like with the .
22:06:17	<ski>	@unpl paddingLengths hs rs = (map (maximum . map length) . transpose) (hs:rs)
22:06:17	<lambdabot>	paddingLengths hs rs = map (\ x0 -> maximum (map length x0)) (transpose (hs : rs))
22:06:53	<gqplox>	oh nice this bot is very helpful
22:06:54	<gqplox>	thank you
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22:09:00	<olivermead>	ski: is there any help for this bot? like what it can do
22:10:02	<ski>	@help
22:10:02	<lambdabot>	help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
22:10:10	<olivermead>	oh I see, thank you
22:10:10	<ski>	@help help
22:10:10	<lambdabot>	help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
22:10:14	<olivermead>	@list
22:10:14	<lambdabot>	What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
22:10:27	<olivermead>	it's laughing at me
22:10:34	<chromoblob>	@help list
22:10:34	<lambdabot>	list [module\|command]. Show commands for [module] or the module providing [command].
22:10:34	<olivermead>	@listmodules
22:10:34	<lambdabot>	activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime metar more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search
22:10:34	<lambdabot>	seen slap source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
22:10:52	<ski>	@list pointful
22:10:52	<lambdabot>	pointful provides: pointful pointy repoint unpointless unpl unpf
22:11:02	<ski>	@help pl
22:11:02	<lambdabot>	pointless <expr>. Play with pointfree code.
22:11:03	<olivermead>	@help unpl
22:11:03	<lambdabot>	pointful <expr>. Make code pointier.
22:11:40	<geekosaur>	https://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot/pull/205/commits/ef11140fcda59f04291e9e29936a8fc769cd4d08
22:11:40	<ski>	@keal
22:11:40	<lambdabot>	i can explain why something is without knowing what the rules decided by man are
22:11:52	<olivermead>	very nice, I normally spend ages thinking to convert pointy<->pointfree
22:11:54	<ski>	@ghc
22:11:54	<lambdabot>	Functional dependencies conflict between instance declarations
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22:12:03	<ski>	@quote
22:12:04	<lambdabot>	Bonus says: <Bonus> i thought laziness is one of the basic tenets of python <Bonus> ugh <Bonus> i mean haskell
22:12:31	<ski>	olivermead : i usually prefer doing it myself
22:13:00	<olivermead>	it is fun
22:13:11	<ski>	pointless fun :)
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23:44:06	→	kaskal- joins (~kaskal@2001:4bb8:2dc:7b0e:55ee:692c:e44d:a4b0)
23:44:58	→	zmt00 joins (~zmt00@user/zmt00)
23:45:38	×	freeside quits (~mengwong@bb115-66-48-84.singnet.com.sg) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
23:48:13	×	hrberg quits (~quassel@171.79-160-161.customer.lyse.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
23:48:27	→	hrberg joins (~quassel@171.79-160-161.customer.lyse.net)
23:50:11	→	L29Ah joins (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah)
23:51:39	×	taeaad quits (~taeaad@user/taeaad) (Read error: Software caused connection abort)
23:52:48	×	lieven quits (~mal@ns2.wyrd.be) (Read error: Software caused connection abort)
23:54:54	→	taeaad joins (~taeaad@user/taeaad)
23:57:24	×	crns quits (~netcrns@user/crns) (Read error: Software caused connection abort)
23:58:56	→	lieven joins (~mal@ns2.wyrd.be)

All times are in UTC on 2022-11-02.