Logs on 2022-11-10 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:57:34 | <iqubic> | Does anyone know why the Read instance of Data.Time.LocalTime's TimeZone only accepts abbreviations for a limited number of time zones? |
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| 00:58:25 | <geekosaur> | because abbreviations aren't reliable (quick, what's IST?) and can change |
| 00:58:44 | <geekosaur> | so only the most common and most likely to be unique and fixed are provided |
| 00:58:50 | <iqubic> | I think IST is India Standard Time. |
| 00:58:58 | <geekosaur> | or Iceland or Israel |
| 00:59:01 | <dsal> | How about EST? |
| 00:59:21 | <iqubic> | EST is definitely Eastern Standard Time |
| 00:59:49 | <dsal> | Yeah, Australians agree. |
| 01:00:01 | <iqubic> | I see... That makes sense. |
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| 01:11:58 | <EvanR> | the TimeZone in Data.Time is just a shift and some letters |
| 01:12:31 | <EvanR> | nothing official, unlike timezone-series + timezone-olsen |
| 01:13:22 | <EvanR> | if the meaning of the letters isn't that imporant TimeZone is fine |
| 01:13:33 | <iqubic> | What are timezone-series and timezone-olsen? |
| 01:14:06 | <EvanR> | TimeZoneSeries is a historical progression of what a timezone meant through history |
| 01:14:22 | <EvanR> | timezone-olsen gives you access to read the database files to load the series |
| 01:14:52 | <EvanR> | e.g. Central Time (US & Canada) is more complex than a single shift |
| 01:15:02 | <iqubic> | I'm not sure when those would ever be used over just the standard time library. |
| 01:15:13 | <EvanR> | though now I'm skeptical US and Canada always agreed on Central time at all points in time |
| 01:15:13 | <geekosaur> | when you want accurate timezone information |
| 01:15:39 | <geekosaur> | the olsen databases are regularly updated as timezone information changes |
| 01:16:20 | <geekosaur> | and retains historical information so you can accuratelky reconstruct timezones (to the extent it's possible) for past times as well |
| 01:16:37 | <iqubic> | Are there Haskell library for those? |
| 01:16:46 | <EvanR> | that's what I was talking about, those are on hackage |
| 01:16:46 | <geekosaur> | those are the haskell library names |
| 01:16:56 | <iqubic> | Oh. I see. |
| 01:17:01 | <geekosaur> | your OS already uses the olsen database |
| 01:18:10 | <geekosaur> | (or equivalent e.g. on windows) |
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| 01:18:58 | <iqubic> | You don't know what OS I'm on. But yeah, I assume NixOS uses the olsen db |
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| 01:19:40 | <EvanR> | since the order I read words in messages is undefined, you don't know if I don't know that xD |
| 01:20:10 | <iqubic> | Haha.... |
| 01:20:51 | <dsal> | hasql th's fold thing introduces a local called `init` which causes a shadow warning. I guess that sort of makes sense. |
| 01:21:03 | <geekosaur> | right, but everyone except windows uses olsen. microsoft has an equivalent in their own proprietary format |
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| 01:22:00 | <iqubic> | MS always has an equivalent in their own proprietary format. Doesn't matter what it is we're talking about, but MS has their own version |
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| 01:27:52 | <iqubic> | What's the canonical way to pronounce "hasql"? |
| 01:29:55 | <dsal> | Many things are best left unsaid. |
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| 01:30:49 | <dsal> | I did get this working under postgresql-simple, but along the way I learned that it's terrible and will never improve. |
| 01:31:05 | <sm> | haskwl, of course |
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| 01:48:46 | <iqubic> | How does Servant convert a text based QueryParam into a piece of usable data? |
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| 01:49:41 | <iqubic> | Like, how does Servant handle something of type: QueryParam "value" Integer |
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| 02:11:57 | <Axman6> | iqubic: look at the instances for https://hackage.haskell.org/package/servant-0.19.1/docs/Servant-API.html#t::-62- - you'll see: (KnownSymbol sym, ToHttpApiData v, HasLink sub, SBoolI (FoldRequired mods)) => HasLink (QueryParam' mods sym v :> sub :: Type) |
| 02:12:17 | <Axman6> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/servant-0.19.1/docs/Servant-API.html#t:ToHttpApiData is what takes care of the convertion |
| 02:12:22 | <Axman6> | conversion* |
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| 02:25:56 | <iqubic> | Axman6: You sure it's not instead? https://www.servant.dev/servant/Servant-Common-Text.html#t:FromText |
| 02:26:12 | <iqubic> | s/not/not this/ |
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| 03:06:04 | <iqubic> | Axman6: Did I miss your response? My irc client disconnected me for some reason |
| 03:06:31 | <Axman6> | uh, yeah actually that's the wrong instance, I missed that that was the HasLink instance |
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| 03:07:11 | <Axman6> | It would be this lovely instance: (KnownSymbol sym, FromHttpApiData a, HasServer api context, SBoolI (FoldRequired mods), SBoolI (FoldLenient mods), HasContextEntry (MkContextWithErrorFormatter context) ErrorFormatters) => HasServer (QueryParam' mods sym a :> api :: Type) context |
| 03:07:17 | <Axman6> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/servant-server-0.19.2/docs/Servant-Server.html#t:HasServer |
| 03:07:35 | <Axman6> | which requires FromHttpApiData |
| 03:08:46 | <iqubic> | That sounds complex |
| 03:08:52 | <Axman6> | it's not |
| 03:09:13 | <iqubic> | Parsing a QueryParam into anything other than the predefined things sounds hard. |
| 03:09:26 | <Axman6> | "the predefined things"? |
| 03:09:59 | <Axman6> | you just need to implement the FromHttpApiData class, which is usually pretty easy: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/http-api-data-0.5/docs/Web-Internal-HttpApiData.html#t:FromHttpApiData |
| 03:10:06 | <iqubic> | Predefined as in something like QueryParam "value" Integer |
| 03:10:31 | <iqubic> | Because Parsing something into an Integer is easy |
| 03:11:03 | <Axman6> | it's pretty rare that you'd want something much more complex than a number, string, data or ID in a query param |
| 03:11:34 | <iqubic> | What are data and ID there? |
| 03:12:23 | <iqubic> | Also, I know that you can have Servant Parse out Filter and Sort options using a predefined syntax. I don't know much about how that works though. |
| 03:12:26 | <Axman6> | uh, data = date |
| 03:12:40 | <Axman6> | ID I mean a number, or UUID generally |
| 03:13:01 | <iqubic> | Oh? What does Date mean in this context? |
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| 03:14:53 | <Axman6> | ... a date? |
| 03:15:42 | <iqubic> | Yeah, but what's the datatype associated with dates? How do I tell Servant that a given QueryParam should be parsed as a date? |
| 03:15:55 | <Axman6> | Day |
| 03:16:08 | <Axman6> | >>> toGregorian <$> parseUrlPiece "2016-12-01" |
| 03:16:09 | <Axman6> | Right (2016,12,1) |
| 03:16:14 | <Axman6> | from the docs I linked to |
| 03:16:35 | <iqubic> | I se. |
| 03:17:05 | <iqubic> | Is that using Day from Data.Time? |
| 03:17:41 | <Axman6> | how about you tell me by going to the link I already provided you and not being so lazy? I thought you stopped doing this months ago |
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| 03:17:52 | <dibblego> | lol nah |
| 03:18:07 | <iqubic> | Yeah. Sorry about that. I should really get better at reading the docs |
| 03:18:18 | <iqubic> | I'll stop wasting everyone's time. |
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| 03:19:53 | <Axman6> | you're welcome to ask questions, but when you've been given the answer, you should probably read it before asking more |
| 03:20:03 | <iqubic> | I agree |
| 03:20:08 | <iqubic> | I'll do that from now on. |
| 03:20:28 | <dibblego> | good job |
| 03:21:04 | <monochrom> | If you are licensed to drive a car, and your region has a thing called "stop sign", you probably have heard of "rolling stop", meaning at the stop sign you don't stop as legally required, you merely don't step on the throttle pedal (nor the brake pedal though) and just let the car slowly go past. |
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| 03:21:29 | <monochrom> | Well, some of my students' idea of "reading" my slides is equivalent to rolling stop. |
| 03:21:34 | <dibblego> | (not in Australia) |
| 03:21:48 | <iqubic> | What does that mean monochrom_? |
| 03:22:04 | <iqubic> | Does that mean your students just skim your slides? |
| 03:22:35 | <monochrom> | Well, my student asks my a question. The answer is already on my slides. So I say "find it in my lecture 5 slides". The student scrolls quickly and reports "not found". |
| 03:22:57 | <iqubic> | I'm sorry you have to deal with that. |
| 03:24:07 | <dibblego> | when a licenced pilot asks you a question that is answered directly in the legal document... it's because their instructor did not hurt them enough about during initial training |
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| 04:49:37 | <dsal> | It doesn't look like hasql provides an abstraction for running a SQL query and reflectively processing the results. Am I missing something? |
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| 04:59:33 | <iqubic> | I have a Time package question. If I have a TimeZone value, is it possible to get the current UTC Time (in an IO function) and convert it via said TimeZone |
| 05:03:35 | <dsal> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/time-1.12.2/docs/Data-Time-LocalTime.html#v:utcToLocalTime |
| 05:03:57 | <dsal> | @hoogle |
| 05:03:58 | <lambdabot> | package base |
| 05:03:58 | <lambdabot> | package bytestring |
| 05:03:58 | <lambdabot> | package containers |
| 05:04:22 | <iqubic> | Thank you |
| 05:04:27 | <dsal> | @hoogle (TimeZone -> UTCTime -> LocalTime) -- oops, accidentally hit enter |
| 05:04:28 | <lambdabot> | Data.Time.LocalTime utcToLocalTime :: TimeZone -> UTCTime -> LocalTime |
| 05:04:28 | <lambdabot> | RIO.Time utcToLocalTime :: TimeZone -> UTCTime -> LocalTime |
| 05:04:28 | <lambdabot> | Data.Thyme.Time.Core utcToLocalTime :: TimeZone -> UTCTime -> LocalTime |
| 05:04:42 | <dsal> | You'd expect timezone first because the curry is tastier. |
| 05:05:25 | <iqubic> | @hoogle IO UTCTime |
| 05:05:26 | <lambdabot> | Util getModificationUTCTime :: FilePath -> IO UTCTime |
| 05:05:43 | <iqubic> | Really? There's no way to just get the current UTCTime? |
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| 05:10:25 | <dsal> | @hoogle (IO UTCTime) |
| 05:10:26 | <lambdabot> | Data.Time.Clock getCurrentTime :: IO UTCTime |
| 05:10:26 | <lambdabot> | Data.Time.Clock.POSIX getCurrentTime :: IO UTCTime |
| 05:10:26 | <lambdabot> | ClassyPrelude getCurrentTime :: IO UTCTime |
| 05:10:43 | <iqubic> | Oh? Do the parens change things? |
| 05:10:45 | <iqubic> | Weird |
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| 05:34:36 | <sm> | is there a map of the time types like |
| 05:34:37 | <sm> | @where numbers ? |
| 05:34:37 | <lambdabot> | https://blog.plover.com/prog/haskell/numbers.html A map of Haskell's numeric types |
| 05:35:46 | <sm> | hmm, yes: https://wiki.haskell.org/Time |
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| 05:47:18 | ski | noted that numbers link doesn't list `Bounded' |
| 05:47:23 | <ski> | (nor `Ix') |
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| 05:53:09 | <fvr> | those who use nixpkgs infra to build haskell projects, do you use nixpkgs-unstable in prod? |
| 05:54:07 | <iqubic> | Yes, I use nixpkgs-unstable in prod. I don't notice any major issues. |
| 05:55:07 | <fvr> | ah okay, just realised today that unstable has openssl pinned to openssl_3 which HsOpenSSL is depending on. So need to upgrade I guess |
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| 07:27:46 | <chreekat> | yeah i wouldn't touch unstable with a 10 foot pole, but ymmv |
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| 07:39:46 | <fvr> | what issues would one be facing? |
| 07:40:02 | <fvr> | I have been using it close to a year now |
| 07:48:01 | <chreekat> | I previously worked in a team where most of us used NixOS for our work machines. On nixos-stable, I had 0 problems ever. My colleagues using nixos-unstable would occasionally have packages break or stop working for a little while |
| 07:48:56 | <chreekat> | Plus, a backward-incompatible change could come at any time |
| 07:49:16 | <chreekat> | it wasn't frequent, so maybe it's worth it, but I liked to not have to think about it ever |
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| 09:29:41 | <probie> | Is there a pragma to indicate that providing an implementation of a class method is deprecated? |
| 09:31:03 | → | chromoblob joins (~user@37.113.164.122) |
| 09:32:20 | <ski> | "You can only attach to entities declared at top level in the module being compiled" <https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/pragmas.html#warning-and-deprecated-pragmas> |
| 09:34:09 | <ski> | "Warnings and deprecations are not reported for [..] defining a method in a class instance" |
| 09:35:45 | → | Inst joins (~Liam@c-98-208-218-119.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) |
| 09:35:53 | <Inst> | is it valid to think of monads as generics of generics? |
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| 09:36:15 | <ski> | what do you mean by "generic" ? |
| 09:36:45 | <Inst> | mainstream programming generics, not haskell generics |
| 09:36:56 | <c_wraith> | parametric polymorphism? |
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| 09:37:12 | <ski> | like in Java, C#, C++, Ada ? |
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| 09:38:56 | <lortabac> | Inst: do you mean that monads require higher-order kinds? |
| 09:39:00 | <lortabac> | :k Monad |
| 09:39:01 | <lambdabot> | (* -> *) -> Constraint |
| 09:39:35 | <Inst> | i've developed a nasty hobby of trying to develop better monad tutorials |
| 09:39:57 | <lortabac> | maybe that's what you mean by "generics of generics" |
| 09:40:16 | <Inst> | strangely enough, i'm sort of veering toward the category theory definition |
| 09:41:14 | <Inst> | monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors seems to me to be increasingly obvious as the easiest way to explain monads |
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| 09:41:37 | <dminuoso> | Not really. |
| 09:41:38 | <Inst> | by generics of generics, i mean that you have a common interface toward certain generics |
| 09:41:49 | <dminuoso> | That phrase is by no means a vehicle for explaining them |
| 09:42:00 | <c_wraith> | note that this is not what monads "are" |
| 09:42:09 | <Inst> | define monad, then |
| 09:42:11 | <ski> | @where burrito |
| 09:42:12 | <lambdabot> | http://byorgey.wordpress.com/2009/01/12/abstraction-intuition-and-the-monad-tutorial-fallacy/ |
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| 09:42:16 | <ski> | obligatory ^ |
| 09:42:24 | <c_wraith> | a monoid in the category of endofunctors. |
| 09:42:26 | <dminuoso> | Inst: A monad is just an an abstract interface. |
| 09:42:26 | <Inst> | iirc some people bashed it because analogy is how people learn |
| 09:42:37 | <Inst> | dminuoso: an abstract interface bound by certain laws |
| 09:42:46 | <Inst> | kind * -> * (or reduceable to such) |
| 09:42:55 | <Inst> | map, mu, and eta operations |
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| 09:43:03 | <Inst> | a specific relationship between mu and eta |
| 09:43:09 | <ski> | the monad interface is similar to the priority queue interface |
| 09:43:38 | [exa] | makes a priority queue for the burritos here |
| 09:43:43 | <ski> | both provide a couple of operations for manipulating the data structure described by the interface |
| 09:44:27 | <dminuoso> | Inst: Do take a read at Byorgey's blog post, it captures it really well. |
| 09:44:29 | <Inst> | and i agree re dminuoso that the best explanation is just an interface |
| 09:44:41 | <Inst> | i disagree with monad tutorial fallacy |
| 09:44:54 | <c_wraith> | I don't think you can "disagree" with a non-opinion |
| 09:44:58 | <Inst> | i.e, i think we should develop better monad tutorials so you can teach the monad concept toward the start of a semester |
| 09:45:02 | <ski> | both are interfaces of "generics" : a priority queue type is (or at least can be) parameterized by its element type, a monad is parameterized by its "monadic result type" |
| 09:45:25 | <Inst> | monadic result type? |
| 09:45:29 | <dminuoso> | Inst: We dont need tutorials for them. Learning them is easy. Just study each individual instance, let the intuition develop on its own. |
| 09:45:31 | <dminuoso> | Done. |
| 09:45:34 | <ski> | @type getLine |
| 09:45:35 | <lambdabot> | IO String |
| 09:45:39 | <ski> | the `String' there ^ |
| 09:45:43 | <dminuoso> | What is in the way, is pretending that "monads are a thing needing to learn" |
| 09:46:02 | <dminuoso> | Rather than just focusing on the instances themselves, which each take just a few minutes to fully teach, learn and absorb. |
| 09:46:05 | × | eggplantade quits (~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:a09f:2a20:ea37:7e61) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 09:46:27 | <Inst> | ehhh, learn monads as a typeclass, then learn each individual monads as their need / utility pops up |
| 09:46:40 | <dminuoso> | Sort of like "teaching monoid" is pointless until the student has learned addition and multiplication. Its only when you're equipped with enough tools to recognize the common theme. |
| 09:46:44 | <c_wraith> | that isn't how humans actually learn |
| 09:46:51 | <c_wraith> | humans learn concrete -> abstract |
| 09:46:56 | <Inst> | man it'd be totally cool to learn monoids before addition / multiplication |
| 09:46:59 | <merijn> | Lemme find a relevant quote from a math journal |
| 09:47:18 | <dminuoso> | Inst: Go try and teach monoid in elementary before addition. Good luck. |
| 09:47:26 | <merijn> | Suppose that you want to teach the 'cat' concept to a very young child. Do you explain that a cat is a relatively small, primarily carnivorous mammal with retractible claws, a distinctive sonic output, etc.? I'll bet not. You probably show the kid a lot of different cats, saying 'kitty' each time, until it gets the idea. To put it more generally, generalizations are best made by abstraction from |
| 09:47:27 | <[exa]> | you guys didn't play with train models? |
| 09:47:32 | <merijn> | experience. |
| 09:47:33 | <[exa]> | I mean, transportation monoids |
| 09:47:35 | <merijn> | - R. P. Boas (Can we make mathematics intelligible?, American Mathematical Monthly 88 (1981), pp. 727-731) |
| 09:47:46 | <ski> | Inst : there are (a few) better ones. they tend to focus on the practical affordances (which type of boiler-plate code the particular monad captures, and abstracts away, what relevant extra operations that monad supports) .. or else do a proper abstract mathematical introduction (without all the fluffy analogical handwaving) |
| 09:47:49 | <dminuoso> | [exa]: well yes, and again the children would practice on actual *examples* first. |
| 09:48:22 | <merijn> | tbh, I wanna watch Inst teach monoids to kids |
| 09:48:27 | <merijn> | That sounds very entertaining |
| 09:48:34 | <merijn> | (for me, not for Inst or the kids) |
| 09:49:02 | <[exa]> | also the modeling clay aka color monoid |
| 09:49:16 | <merijn> | [exa]: What's the identity element? |
| 09:49:23 | <merijn> | Pretty sure that's a semigroup |
| 09:49:23 | <dminuoso> | transparent clay? I want that! |
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| 09:49:37 | <[exa]> | merijn: no clay is ok |
| 09:49:45 | <dminuoso> | and I would bet transparent clay would still change the color |
| 09:49:52 | <dminuoso> | because it diffuses |
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| 09:50:19 | <InstX1> | hi |
| 09:50:42 | <InstX1> | got a bad storm, my internet cut out |
| 09:50:43 | <InstX1> | <merijn> Lemme find a relevant quote from a math journal |
| 09:50:45 | <InstX1> | cut out over here |
| 09:50:53 | <InstX1> | tbh, this just came up to me |
| 09:50:53 | <dminuoso> | InstX1: check the topic, we have a chatlog. |
| 09:51:06 | <InstX1> | thanks |
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| 09:51:09 | <InstX1> | but tbh, got a small question |
| 09:51:28 | <InstX1> | we have a bit of a problem because monads strictly refer to the interface and the category theory concept |
| 09:52:23 | <InstX1> | the idea of using maybe, etc, to inject a null value, or using state to propagate an accumulating parameter |
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| 09:52:45 | <InstX1> | what is it called when you have complex parameterized types |
| 09:52:58 | <InstX1> | and you use them to do cool things? |
| 09:52:59 | <dminuoso> | what does "complex" mean here? |
| 09:53:00 | <ski> | Inst : unlike priority queues (where most relevant operations are in the abstract interface), most of the relevant operations on a particular monad are *not* in the monad interface. even, if you only have the interface operations available, you can't do too much (basically describe ways to sequence parameter actions, traverse data structures) .. and you can't use those usefully, without some particular |
| 09:53:06 | <ski> | monadic actions not constructible by the abstract operations |
| 09:53:32 | <InstX1> | well, the standard monads seem to be more a function of the haskell type system, gadts |
| 09:53:45 | <InstX1> | i recall uncle bob having a video (which I paid for) that claimed to explain monads |
| 09:53:52 | <InstX1> | he was actually explaining the monadic pattern, not monads themselves |
| 09:54:05 | <dminuoso> | ski: I stand by the opinion, that `Monad` is really only captured well in code that is polymorphic over some arbitrary Monad. e.g. `mapM` |
| 09:54:18 | <dminuoso> | Outside of those combinators, you dont observe the real Monad interface well enough |
| 09:54:27 | <dminuoso> | pretty much because of what you just said |
| 09:54:38 | <InstX1> | w/e, sorry, getting late, going to sleep |
| 09:54:45 | <InstX1> | i just got up to 2 kyu in Haskell on codewars :D |
| 09:54:55 | <InstX1> | in only 1.5 months |
| 09:55:10 | <dminuoso> | But it turns out, writing code that is polymorphic over Monad is not something most programmers do often, which makes it more difficult for beginners to understand what the point of it is |
| 09:55:24 | <kuribas> | dminuoso: traverse? |
| 09:55:38 | <bloomndoom> | im trying to install juicypixels and i get this error "cannot satisfy -package-id primitive-0.7.4.0-8hFPeuOq4VcHQCYtOnPDT3", what does it mean? |
| 09:55:47 | <dminuoso> | kuribas: Yes, but I intentionally used `mapM` to avoid some nitpicking about how traverse only requires `Applicative`. |
| 09:56:06 | <ski> | dminuoso : yea, otherwise you're talking about particular monad "implementations", not about the monad interface itself. you could compare with a module which only uses the abstract operations on priority queues (perhaps using Backpack to be able to swap out concrete implementations implementing the same module interface, or else perhaps using a typeclass) |
| 09:56:27 | <kuribas> | most language have "do syntax" in the form of list comprehension. |
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| 09:58:43 | <ski> | "Escaping Hell with Monads" by Philip Nillson in 2017-05-08 at <https://philipnilsson.github.io/Badness10k/escaping-hell-with-monads/> is a nice short (non-tutorial) teaser of monads |
| 09:58:57 | <Franciman> | ski: what do you think about moggi's original article about monads? |
| 09:59:11 | <Franciman> | is it intelligible for the not quite experienced user? |
| 09:59:36 | <bloomndoom> | ive tried doing `cabal install --dependencies-only` and install `ghc-static` on arch but i'm still getting that error |
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| 10:00:02 | <kuribas> | The problem is that the term Monad scares people away. If you would just tell them, hey, you can overload list comprehension syntax so it works for different usecases, nobody would object. |
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| 10:03:00 | <ski> | i also quite like the (rather short, to the point) "What the hell are Monads?" by Noel Winstanley in 1999-02 at <https://www-users.mat.umk.pl/~fly/materialy/fp/haskell-doc/Monads.html>, which is possibly the first (non-paper) general monad tutorial |
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| 10:04:14 | <ski> | then there's "You Could Have Invented Monads! (And Maybe You Already Have.)" by dpiponi in 2006-08-07 at <http://blog.sigfpe.com/2006/08/you-could-have-invented-monads-and.html> |
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| 10:05:50 | <ski> | Franciman : you should probably have some experience with reading about programming language semantics, from what i (vaguely) recall |
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| 10:06:06 | <ski> | otoh, the Wadler papers are good for (relative) beginners |
| 10:06:24 | <Inst> | ski: tbh, I'm trying to argue that monads aren't monads |
| 10:06:29 | <bloomndoom> | does anyone know what the error `cannot satisfy -package-id primitive-0.7.4.0-8hFPeuOq4VcHQCYtOnPDT3` means? |
| 10:06:44 | <ski> | then there's |
| 10:06:45 | <Inst> | we're referring to the monadic pattern as equivalent to monads |
| 10:06:58 | <ski> | @where Typeclassopedia |
| 10:06:58 | <lambdabot> | http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Typeclassopedia |
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| 10:07:23 | <ski> | (which also introduces `Functor',`Applicative', and also a bunch of other somewhat related type classes) |
| 10:07:26 | <ski> | and |
| 10:07:27 | <ski> | @where AAM |
| 10:07:27 | <lambdabot> | http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/All_About_Monads |
| 10:07:28 | <merijn> | bloomndoom: Something has gone Very Wrong (TM) |
| 10:07:43 | <merijn> | What are you trying to do? |
| 10:08:04 | <Franciman> | ty |
| 10:08:18 | <Franciman> | Inst: monads aren't monads? What dost thou mean? |
| 10:08:36 | <bloomndoom> | merijn: im trying to install juicypixels |
| 10:08:59 | <Inst> | that there should be a more specific term used for creating types with an interface in order to handle certain common programming tasks |
| 10:09:11 | <dminuoso> | bloomndoom: Do you use stack or cabal? |
| 10:09:12 | <bloomndoom> | ive mentioned it in my .cabal file and then tried cabal run |
| 10:09:15 | <bloomndoom> | cabal |
| 10:09:22 | <dminuoso> | bloomndoom: try nuking your dist-newstyle directory. |
| 10:09:40 | <bloomndoom> | alright |
| 10:09:41 | <bloomndoom> | done |
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| 10:09:55 | <dminuoso> | Will it run now? |
| 10:10:01 | <bloomndoom> | still no luck |
| 10:10:15 | <bloomndoom> | <command line>: cannot satisfy -package-id primitive-0.7.4.0-8hFPeuOq4VcHQCYtOnPDT3 |
| 10:10:34 | <Franciman> | Inst: sounds orthogonal to «monads are not monads» |
| 10:10:46 | <dminuoso> | bloomndoom: can you run with -v3 and share the output on https://paste.tomsmeding.com/ |
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| 10:11:27 | <merijn> | bloomndoom: Which version of cabal-install? which ghc? |
| 10:11:28 | <ski> | as for Philip Wadler's papers, see <https://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/wadler/topics/monads.html> (start from oldest. perhaps skip the composable continuations one, at least to begin with, as well as the idiom one, the constraint one, and the arrow one) |
| 10:11:46 | <Franciman> | i kinda liked arrows |
| 10:11:54 | <Franciman> | a bit sad they aren't used much these days |
| 10:11:57 | <ski> | anyway, (barring any one i may've forgot) these are more or less the only ones i suggest to beginners |
| 10:12:18 | <Inst> | supposedly proc notation is utter garbage |
| 10:12:26 | <Inst> | not sure if someone fixed it, but proc desugars into extremely inefficient code |
| 10:12:26 | <ski> | (perhaps there were also a couple of other early papers, by other authors, i don't recall atm) |
| 10:12:57 | <merijn> | Franciman: why? |
| 10:13:08 | <merijn> | Franciman: They're just an extremely "meh" abstraction |
| 10:13:11 | <bloomndoom> | dminuoso: i sent it |
| 10:13:22 | <Franciman> | i liked how they were used for parser combinators |
| 10:13:30 | <Franciman> | to obtain offline analysis of the grammar |
| 10:13:30 | <dminuoso> | bloomndoom: Share the link please. |
| 10:13:35 | <ski> | Inst : what do you mean by "we're referring to the monadic pattern as equivalent to monads" ? |
| 10:13:39 | <Franciman> | i think swiestra et al. did it |
| 10:14:00 | <ski> | Swiersta & Duponcheel, yes |
| 10:14:12 | <ski> | main practical problem with `Arrow' is `arr' |
| 10:14:20 | <bloomndoom> | merijn: ghc version is 9.0.2, cabal is 3.4.1.0 |
| 10:14:40 | <Inst> | bleh, forget it, i'm full of it |
| 10:15:31 | <ski> | perhaps there should be a flag that translates `proc' notation into the `Category' hierarchy classes (possibly adding a few more, e.g. for the "product" not being a proper bifunctor, or categorical product) |
| 10:15:43 | <ski> | s/flag/extension/ |
| 10:16:22 | <ski> | hmm .. i wonder if Lava ever used arrows |
| 10:16:29 | <ski> | (hardware description language) |
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| 10:19:17 | <ski> | Inst : "tbh, I'm trying to argue that monads aren't monads" -- huh ? |
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| 10:41:22 | <ski> | @where MTSS |
| 10:41:22 | <lambdabot> | "Monad Transformers Step by Step" by Martin Grabmüller in 2006-10-16 (draft) at <https://web.archive.org/web/20201108001845/https://page.mi.fu-berlin.de/scravy/realworldhaskell/materialien/monad- |
| 10:41:22 | <lambdabot> | transformers-step-by-step.pdf> |
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| 10:54:05 | <ski> | @where escaping-hell |
| 10:54:05 | <lambdabot> | I know nothing about escaping-hell. |
| 10:54:21 | <ski> | @where+ escaping-hell (non-tutorial teaser) "Escaping Hell with Monads" by Philip Nillson in 2017-05-08 at <https://philipnilsson.github.io/Badness10k/escaping-hell-with-monads/> |
| 10:54:21 | <lambdabot> | It is forever etched in my memory. |
| 10:54:31 | <ski> | @where hell-monads |
| 10:54:31 | <lambdabot> | I know nothing about hell-monads. |
| 10:54:56 | <ski> | @where+ hell-monads "What the hell are Monads?" by Noel Winstanley in 1999-02 at <https://www-users.mat.umk.pl/~fly/materialy/fp/haskell-doc/Monads.html>. Possibly the first (non-paper) general monad tutorial |
| 10:54:56 | <lambdabot> | Okay. |
| 10:55:09 | <ski> | @where invented-monads |
| 10:55:10 | <lambdabot> | I know nothing about invented-monads. |
| 10:55:20 | <ski> | @where+ invented-monads "You Could Have Invented Monads! (And Maybe You Already Have.)" by dpiponi in 2006-08-07 at <http://blog.sigfpe.com/2006/08/you-could-have-invented-monads-and.html> |
| 10:55:20 | <lambdabot> | Done. |
| 10:55:32 | <ski> | @where wadler-monads |
| 10:55:32 | <lambdabot> | I know nothing about wadler-monads. |
| 10:55:50 | <ski> | @where+ wadler-monads Monad(ic (, idiomatic/applicative and arrow) effects) introduction papers by Philip Wadler in 1992-01 - 2010 at <https://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/wadler/topics/monads.html>. Start from oldest. Perhaps skip the ones touching upon composable continuations, idioms, constraints, arrows, on a first read |
| 10:55:50 | <lambdabot> | It is forever etched in my memory. |
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| 11:01:59 | <nilradical> | what is a good and simple option for a server that will just read and write json files for someone with no experience doing servers |
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| 11:06:00 | <dminuoso> | "json files" from the disk? |
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| 11:06:19 | <dminuoso> | Do you mean a kind of daemon that reads files from the filesystem? |
| 11:06:35 | <dminuoso> | Or do you intend to receive/send json data over a network? |
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| 11:07:39 | <nilradical> | dminuoso: yes on disk, i guess daemon on the filesystem is what i mean |
| 11:08:04 | <dminuoso> | Okay, what pieces of the puzzle are you missing? |
| 11:08:45 | <dminuoso> | And is performance relevant at all? |
| 11:09:58 | <nilradical> | i am basically trying to do a simulation of what will eventually be a network program where there is a client and a host communicating. i thought it may be easy to do this with just hte two programs running on the same disk reading and writing from .json files, but perhaps i'm wrong about that |
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| 11:11:22 | <nilradical> | right now i have the two programs reading a file and writing to it using Aeson and readFile/writeFile |
| 11:11:53 | <nilradical> | i guess there could be some problem with one tryign to read while the other is trying to write as well |
| 11:12:01 | <nilradical> | maybe the network way would be better? |
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| 11:12:24 | <nilradical> | performance is not really relevant |
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| 11:47:46 | <chreekat> | nilradical: For the server i'd use any of the webserver tools . https://hackage.haskell.org/package/wai has basic ideas. Then you can use some of the fancier systems that layer on top it (e.g. most haskell web frameworks... servant, yesod, IHP) if things get complicated. For the client, http-client is maybe the easiest to recommend. |
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| 11:47:49 | <chreekat> | and yeah I think setting up actual network apps is probably easiest |
| 11:48:31 | <nilradical> | chreekat: thanks very much, i'll give it a go |
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| 12:43:44 | <bloomndoom> | im getting this error when installing JuicyPixels `<command line>: cannot satisfy -package-id primitive-0.7.4.0-8hFPeuOq4VcHQCYtOnPDT3`, my ghc version is 9.0.2 and cabal version is 3.4.1.0 , on arch |
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| 12:44:48 | <maerwald[m]> | bloomndoom: remove all arch GHCs |
| 12:44:52 | <maerwald[m]> | And start over |
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| 12:45:28 | <maerwald[m]> | https://www.haskell.org/ghcup/ |
| 12:45:37 | <bloomndoom> | maerwald: install through ghcup? |
| 12:51:10 | <maerwald[m]> | bloomndoom: can |
| 12:52:24 | <merijn> | bloomndoom: oh, you're on arch? |
| 12:52:30 | <bloomndoom> | fyeah |
| 12:52:32 | <merijn> | RIP |
| 12:52:39 | <bloomndoom> | huh? |
| 12:52:40 | <merijn> | nuke all system packages and start over |
| 12:52:48 | <bloomndoom> | wdym system packages? |
| 12:52:58 | <merijn> | as in, haskell package installed via arch |
| 12:53:03 | <bloomndoom> | like all haskell stuff? |
| 12:53:22 | <merijn> | bloomndoom: The compiler shipped by arch is (intentionally) broken in the default configuration |
| 12:53:45 | <merijn> | There's a bunch of stuff on the Arch wiki too on how you can workaround that, but the easiest method is just "don't use arch packages" |
| 12:53:54 | <bloomndoom> | ah damn |
| 12:54:05 | <bloomndoom> | so all haskell packages installed through pacman? |
| 12:54:16 | <dminuoso> | Yes. |
| 12:54:34 | <merijn> | It's been awhile since the great flood of arch users, or I woulda asked that first with errors like these |
| 12:54:35 | <dminuoso> | The GHC maintainer on Arch has some.. peculiar opinions. |
| 12:54:52 | <merijn> | dminuoso: Pretty sure it's all of Arch maintainers |
| 12:55:01 | <bloomndoom> | wow lol |
| 12:55:09 | <merijn> | bloomndoom: Essentially Arch belives "dynamic linking is The One True Way" |
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| 12:55:15 | <bloomndoom> | i actually wanted to use nix but seemed to buggy |
| 12:55:18 | <merijn> | bloomndoom: So they only install dynamic versions of haskell libraries |
| 12:55:28 | <bloomndoom> | so just `pacman -Qeq | grep haskell | sudo pacman -Rsn -` ? |
| 12:55:45 | <merijn> | bloomndoom: Except, GHC (in its default configuration) links statically by default, and they can't be arsed to fix/patch GHC to default to dynamic on arch |
| 12:55:47 | <tomsmeding> | '^haskell-' to be safer |
| 12:56:08 | <tomsmeding> | bloomndoom: actually it's probably easier to `pacman -Rsc ghc` |
| 12:56:08 | <bloomndoom> | merijn: ah that sucks |
| 12:56:24 | <merijn> | So by default GHC will try to statically link, encounter all these packages that are installed (according to the database) but don't have static versions, so it's only conclusion is "package must be broken" |
| 12:56:30 | <bloomndoom> | tomsmeding: yeah that makes sense lol |
| 12:56:32 | <tomsmeding> | and then see if you have any *ghc* or *haskell* packages left and look more carefully at those |
| 12:56:43 | <dminuoso> | merijn: to be absolutely blunt, GHC could have better diagnostics. |
| 12:56:52 | <dminuoso> | It could tell you "missing static version of XYZ" |
| 12:57:07 | <dminuoso> | Just saying "cannot satisfy" is about the poorest thing to tell. |
| 12:57:08 | <merijn> | dminuoso: Sure, it did at one point, I think? |
| 12:57:49 | <bloomndoom> | tomsmeding: ran it, have hls, ghc and a few related packages left |
| 12:58:03 | <dminuoso> | merijn: Anyway. What is kind of funny about the whole arch haskell business, is that one of the primary reasons for breaking things the way they are, is because the maintainer has slow internet speed. |
| 12:58:10 | <tomsmeding> | bloomndoom: if you did -Rsc ghc then you cannot have ghc left :p |
| 12:58:24 | <dminuoso> | Not judging, but it is really the driving reason why arch haskell is all dynamically built. |
| 12:58:50 | <bloomndoom> | tomsmeding: wait nvm, it isnt there, it was just showing up on autocomplete for a sec lol |
| 12:59:18 | <dminuoso> | Well and the fact, that it seems that the Arch Haskell packages were built on his personal PC... |
| 12:59:26 | <dminuoso> | Which meant compiling things locally was slow, and uploading even slower... |
| 12:59:29 | <dminuoso> | It's kind of absurd. |
| 12:59:56 | <bloomndoom> | wait |
| 13:00:09 | <maerwald[m]> | dminuoso: it's an amateur distro |
| 13:01:17 | <maerwald[m]> | There has always been Synergy of packagers taking ideas from each others build recipes. E.g. gentoos have usually high quality or fedora. But no one looks at arch PKGBUILDs. They're generally trash. |
| 13:02:13 | <bloomndoom> | tomsmeding: could running -Rsc break my system? some applications arent closing rn |
| 13:02:24 | <bloomndoom> | it isnt a big deal cuz this is a vm but yeah |
| 13:02:58 | <tomsmeding> | bloomndoom: what did it remove :p |
| 13:03:04 | <bloomndoom> | not sure lol |
| 13:03:06 | <tomsmeding> | lol |
| 13:03:11 | <maerwald[m]> | There's good news though: there are better distros than arch |
| 13:03:18 | <bloomndoom> | but i cant seem to close windows anymore tho |
| 13:03:19 | <tomsmeding> | if I told you to `rm -rf --no-preserve-root /`, would you do it too? |
| 13:03:23 | <dminuoso> | maerwald[m]: Im not even talking about PKGBUILD itself, but the mere fact that there's a maintainer just punching in commands on their local computer, and hitting some upload button - and the artifacts are what are in pacman. |
| 13:03:32 | <dminuoso> | There's something deeply flawed about it. |
| 13:03:32 | <tomsmeding> | always check what commands do before you run them |
| 13:03:34 | <bloomndoom> | tomsmeding: nah i know what that does lmao |
| 13:03:59 | <dminuoso> | You'd think they have some kind of CI infrastructure to do this, running on dedicated computing hardware |
| 13:04:00 | <tomsmeding> | bloomndoom: it should have removed all packages that depend on ghc, as well as everything that was not explicitly installed and has become redundant after removing all the other stuff |
| 13:04:14 | <tomsmeding> | perhaps you actually needed some of the dependencies? |
| 13:04:16 | <maerwald[m]> | Legit, lol |
| 13:04:36 | <bloomndoom> | tomsmeding: yeah true, i had a vague idea of what it did but wasnt exactly sure |
| 13:04:38 | <tomsmeding> | bloomndoom: check /var/log/pacman.log, it shows a log of all the things it did |
| 13:05:55 | <bloomndoom> | maerwald[m]: what distros do you recommend over arch? |
| 13:06:05 | dminuoso | smells gentoo coming |
| 13:06:21 | tomsmeding | smells fedora coming actually |
| 13:06:24 | <maerwald[m]> | dminuoso: no god no |
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| 13:07:05 | <dminuoso> | Either way, its particularly the Haskell side that is broken on Arch. Whether you are fine with the rest of it is up to you *shrugs* |
| 13:07:21 | <dminuoso> | I dont have any strong feelings to tell people not to use a particular distribution |
| 13:07:37 | <maerwald[m]> | bloomndoom: Fedora or opensuse is a good compromise, although Fedors packagers sometimes break shit too carelessly |
| 13:07:38 | <maerwald[m]> | I consider debian trash too |
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| 13:08:17 | <bloomndoom> | tomsmeding: it removed the haskell packages , doesnt looklike it should break anything |
| 13:08:40 | <tomsmeding> | bloomndoom: try turning it off and on again? |
| 13:09:00 | <bloomndoom> | yeah i'll do that |
| 13:09:07 | <maerwald[m]> | dminuoso: GHC build on debian and executed on most non debian distros spams stderr with trash |
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| 13:09:31 | <maerwald[m]> | Because they manage to build libraries in ways no one else does |
| 13:10:08 | <dminuoso> | Perhaps the thing that is really broken is not operating systems, but lack of cohesive tooling or good build systems. |
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| 13:10:55 | <bloomndoom> | okay yeah restarting seemed to fix it |
| 13:11:01 | <dminuoso> | Linux distributions areparticularly problematic due to the organic nature, you have a gigantic mixture of pieces software that are glued together randomly, built with very adhoc build systems making so many assumptions.. |
| 13:11:29 | <maerwald[m]> | dminuoso: with arch you could argue it's lack of knowledge. But with Debian it's outright stupidity, because they know what they are doing and do it anyway |
| 13:11:50 | <bloomndoom> | what about void? |
| 13:12:06 | <maerwald[m]> | This is not a technical problem |
| 13:12:39 | <maerwald[m]> | Cannot be solved by tech |
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| 13:13:35 | <bloomndoom> | do i need both cabal and stack? |
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| 13:13:44 | <maerwald[m]> | bloomndoom: I wanted to try it, but afair I got alienated by how to build packages |
| 13:13:45 | <maerwald[m]> | You need either docker or some other isolated layer afair |
| 13:13:45 | <maerwald[m]> | Felt kinds clunky go hack on build recipes |
| 13:13:56 | <maerwald[m]> | bloomndoom: no, cabal is enough |
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| 13:16:02 | <ski> | @where cabal-stack-disambiguation |
| 13:16:02 | <lambdabot> | "The Cabal/Stack Disambiguation Guide" at <https://gist.github.com/merijn/8152d561fb8b011f9313c48d876ceb07> by Merijn |
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| 13:21:11 | <dminuoso> | maerwald[m]: Honestly, I think if I could restart my life, I would just pick FreeBSD. |
| 13:21:22 | <dminuoso> | In so many ways its actually sane and cohesive. |
| 13:21:27 | <dminuoso> | And it comes with a great manual too. |
| 13:21:55 | <maerwald[m]> | dminuoso: but it's so messy |
| 13:22:06 | <dminuoso> | There is not a single non-messy operating system. |
| 13:22:31 | <dminuoso> | With great complexity, there comes great responsiblity to use a vacuum cleaner. |
| 13:22:57 | <maerwald[m]> | FreeBSD broke cabal with an upgrade from 13.0 to 13.1 i think. It just installs the broken version and doesn't care |
| 13:23:11 | <maerwald[m]> | Then there is this issue with having two copies of ncurses |
| 13:23:31 | <maerwald[m]> | And they sometimes break major things |
| 13:24:17 | <maerwald[m]> | There was this filesystem? change a fer years ago or so that impacted haskell too |
| 13:24:26 | <maerwald[m]> | Maintaining FreeBSD CI is a plague |
| 13:27:23 | <maerwald[m]> | I think was the 64bit inode change |
| 13:27:58 | <maerwald[m]> | https://github.com/commercialhaskell/stack/issues/3515 |
| 13:28:00 | <maerwald[m]> | gg |
| 13:28:28 | <maerwald[m]> | I got no love for this :p |
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| 13:44:02 | <bjourne> | suppose i have a class like this: |
| 13:44:04 | <bjourne> | class Pretty a where |
| 13:44:05 | <bjourne> | pretty :: a -> String |
| 13:44:49 | <bjourne> | how can i make lists instances of this class? |
| 13:45:41 | <dminuoso> | You can use OVERLAPPABLE over OVERLAPPING |
| 13:45:55 | <dminuoso> | https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/instances.html#instance-overlap |
| 13:46:03 | <dminuoso> | Aside from that, consider not using a typeclass for this. |
| 13:46:27 | <bjourne> | show me an example |
| 13:46:40 | <dminuoso> | Using OVERLAPPING/OVERLAPPABLE, or without a typeclass? |
| 13:47:23 | <bjourne> | its deprecated so its moot |
| 13:47:41 | <dminuoso> | No using them as language pragmas is deprecated |
| 13:47:48 | <dminuoso> | You can use them as pragmas directly inside an instance |
| 13:48:11 | <dminuoso> | `instance {-# OVERLAPPING #-} Pretty [a] where ...` |
| 13:48:29 | <dminuoso> | But honestly, I would recommend you do not use a typeclass to begin with for this, but rather just `ppr*` functions. It tends to be better long time |
| 13:49:21 | <bjourne> | i don't want to write {-# OVERLAPPING #-} in my code |
| 13:49:55 | <dminuoso> | Do not use a typeclass instance, then. There's no good reason you should anyway |
| 13:50:03 | <dminuoso> | `pprList = ...` and then use that function. |
| 13:50:42 | <dminuoso> | I've recently written an SO answer about a very similar topic, most of which applies to Pretty as well: https://stackoverflow.com/a/74380240/6636995 |
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| 13:52:47 | <bjourne> | yes i can work around it, but having one function prettifying every element in the dom is nice |
| 13:53:35 | <bjourne> | pprList = ..., pprLeaf = ..., pprId = ..., very ugly |
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| 13:57:03 | <dminuoso> | Why is that ugly? |
| 13:57:07 | <dminuoso> | You are writing each such line anyway. |
| 13:57:16 | <dminuoso> | `pretty = ...`, `pretty = ....`, `pretty = ...` |
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| 13:58:11 | <kuribas> | dminuoso: I think you need Pretty a => Instance Pretty [a] |
| 13:58:23 | <bjourne> | cause i also have to swrite pprList, pprLeaf, etc on each callsite |
| 13:58:23 | <kuribas> | dminuoso: why is the OVERLAPPING needed? |
| 13:58:30 | <dminuoso> | kuribas: Perhaps. Im not making any assumptions about what they intend to do. |
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| 13:58:48 | <dminuoso> | kuribas: Im making the implicit assumption they already have an `instance Pretty String` :P |
| 13:58:50 | <kuribas> | bjourne: also consider using a pretty printing library. |
| 13:59:19 | <dminuoso> | bjourne: I do not consider that to be a problem. Actually, I see the opposite as an actual problem. |
| 13:59:23 | <dminuoso> | Outlined in the SO answer. |
| 13:59:28 | <dminuoso> | It hides what code does. |
| 13:59:33 | <kuribas> | dminuoso: but he wants [a], not String |
| 13:59:47 | <dminuoso> | You have to a) know the types involved and b) do instance resolution in your head, just to figure out what `pretty x` actually ends up doing. |
| 13:59:57 | <dminuoso> | And if types change, suddenly their representation change too |
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| 14:00:56 | <bjourne> | it's a problem because if i change the dom i have to replace lots of pprWhatever with pprWhateverNew |
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| 14:01:51 | <dminuoso> | It can be a simple `sed` or editor command to do this for you, if you demand so. |
| 14:02:06 | <dminuoso> | I think of this as a benefit, since I get control over if I want that to happen |
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| 14:25:46 | <tomsmeding> | bjourne: do you want both `Pretty [a]` and `Pretty String`, and have the second do something different than the [a] instance? |
| 14:39:18 | <int-e> | :t showList |
| 14:39:19 | <lambdabot> | Show a => [a] -> ShowS |
| 14:40:56 | <int-e> | (Do we know who came up with that trick?) |
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| 14:43:20 | <int-e> | (The trick being to delegate the implementation of Show for [a] to the Show instance for a... so [Char] can have a different Show implementation than other lists) |
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| 14:52:41 | <geekosaur> | sadly, that doesn't scale very well. I can't mod Show to have a different mechanism for Show (Set Char) at this point, for example |
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| 15:46:03 | <bjourne> | tomsmeding: i dont want "Pretty String" |
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| 15:46:40 | <tomsmeding> | bjourne: in that case, what is the problem with `instance Pretty a => Pretty [a] where` |
| 15:46:54 | <tomsmeding> | the whole OVERLAPPING discussion was assuming that you wanted String and [a] to have different instances |
| 15:47:02 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: you assumed :p |
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| 15:55:01 | <bjourne> | tomsmeding: the problem was that i didn't know the syntax |
| 15:55:08 | <tomsmeding> | ah :) |
| 15:55:15 | <tomsmeding> | ignore the whole discussion above then |
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| 15:55:38 | <tomsmeding> | well, I guess dminuoso's opinion that he doesn't like to use a type class for this still stands |
| 15:56:12 | <tomsmeding> | one of the motivations being that _if_ you end up wanting `Pretty String` to do something different than the generic lists instance, you need hacks |
| 15:58:20 | <bjourne> | ic, i dont know much about haskell's warts and limitations |
| 15:58:43 | <tomsmeding> | bjourne: the thing is that String = [Char] |
| 15:58:55 | <kuribas> | bjourne: they their for reasons. |
| 15:58:58 | <tomsmeding> | so if you now want to pretty-print a String, it ends up getting treated as a list of characters |
| 15:59:42 | <kuribas> | bjourne: they are there for reasons. Some good, and some historical. In general, you don't want type classes to overlap. |
| 16:00:41 | <tomsmeding> | overlapping instances being the "hacks" I mentioned |
| 16:01:32 | <bjourne> | ic, very bad design i suppose |
| 16:02:34 | <dminuoso> | I think at the very least String should have been newtyped. |
| 16:02:37 | <kuribas> | bjourne: type class instances are open, so they can come from any place. That's why normally they shouldn't overlap, since then you get ambiguity. |
| 16:02:55 | <kuribas> | bjourne: however, sometimes you do want it, and then the OVERLAP pragma can be helpful. |
| 16:05:03 | <kuribas> | bjourne: it's not "bad design", you just need to know when it is appropriate. |
| 16:05:48 | <kuribas> | And in applications overlapping instances aren't a problem, because then all the instances are known. Only in libraries type are. |
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| 16:20:27 | <blomberg> | hi |
| 16:20:44 | <vn36> | elo |
| 16:21:12 | <blomberg> | i=3;while cond;... i=2*i^3+4 ; can fodl do this |
| 16:22:14 | <tomsmeding> | blomberg: what have you tried? |
| 16:22:44 | <blomberg> | haskell no loops simulation problem |
| 16:22:58 | <kuribas> | :t iterate (\i -> 2 * i*i*i + 4) |
| 16:22:59 | <lambdabot> | Num a => a -> [a] |
| 16:23:18 | <tomsmeding> | :t iterate (\i -> 2 * i^3 + 4) |
| 16:23:19 | <lambdabot> | Num a => a -> [a] |
| 16:24:14 | <blomberg> | where is the iterate function mentioned in learn you a haskell book |
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| 16:25:34 | <blomberg> | are there other functools like map filter fold |
| 16:25:59 | <tomsmeding> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.14.0.0/docs/Prelude.html |
| 16:27:11 | <blomberg> | btw that line iterate needs i=3 initialization |
| 16:27:44 | <kuribas> | :t iterate (\i -> 2 * i^3 + 4) 3 |
| 16:27:45 | <lambdabot> | Num a => [a] |
| 16:28:38 | <kuribas> | > fix (\f i -> if i > 30 then i else f (2 * i^3 + 4)) 3 |
| 16:28:39 | <lambdabot> | 58 |
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| 16:29:06 | <tomsmeding> | > iterate (\i -> 2 * i^3 + 4) 3 |
| 16:29:07 | <lambdabot> | [3,58,390228,118846194466264708,33572666422292922482173017929660337310850854... |
| 16:29:19 | <int-e> | > takeWhile (< 10^9) (iterate (\i -> 2*i^3 + 4) 3) |
| 16:29:21 | <lambdabot> | [3,58,390228] |
| 16:29:41 | <kuribas> | > find (< 10^9) (iterate (\i -> 2*i^3 + 4) 3) |
| 16:29:43 | <lambdabot> | Just 3 |
| 16:30:36 | <int-e> | AFAICS LYAH doesn't use `iterate` much but it is mentioned when it describes Data.List |
| 16:30:38 | <kuribas> | > find (> 10^9) (iterate (\i -> 2*i^3 + 4) 3) |
| 16:30:40 | <lambdabot> | Just 118846194466264708 |
| 16:30:45 | <int-e> | explicit recursion is always an option |
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| 16:31:29 | <int-e> | kuribas: head . dropWhile (<= 10^9) is safe when the input is an infinite list |
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| 16:31:42 | <int-e> | (the `find` will never return Nothing anyway) |
| 16:31:57 | <kuribas> | int-e: well, it's a "no loop challenge". |
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| 16:32:34 | <kuribas> | int-e: not on an infinite list |
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| 16:32:40 | <blomberg> | but haskell has no loops? |
| 16:32:42 | <int-e> | kuribas: I've seen that, but I'm being pragmatic here... and defending LYAH for not going into depth on `iterate` |
| 16:32:57 | <int-e> | or its friend `unfoldr` |
| 16:33:07 | <kuribas> | blomberg: I thought you meant no recursion by "no loops". |
| 16:34:00 | <blomberg> | iterate is also missing the condition say i<900 |
| 16:34:05 | <int-e> | > let loop i | i >= 10^9 = [] | otherwise = i : loop (2*i^3 + 4) in loop 3 |
| 16:34:07 | <lambdabot> | [3,58,390228] |
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| 16:34:41 | <dminuoso> | blomberg: Well, we have no *structured* loops in the sense that we have syntactical constructs of them. But recursion is really the same, and in fact after code generation, you generally get comparable code as a loop in most structured programming languages. |
| 16:34:58 | <int-e> | blomberg: you can tack the check on later, see the `takeWhile` things above |
| 16:34:59 | <dminuoso> | blomberg: So dont think of it as simulation, we just encode loops differently. |
| 16:35:37 | <int-e> | the joy of being lazy |
| 16:35:46 | <kuribas> | you can think of loops as simulating recursion :) |
| 16:36:10 | <blomberg> | dminuoso:i meant a function for loops, like iterate |
| 16:36:37 | <int-e> | :t unfoldr |
| 16:36:38 | <lambdabot> | (b -> Maybe (a, b)) -> b -> [a] |
| 16:36:43 | <dminuoso> | blomberg: Okay, whats wrong with iterate? |
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| 16:37:47 | <kuribas> | blomberg: it's more typical in haskell to combine different functions that do a single thing, rather than having functions that include everything (as in common lisp). |
| 16:37:49 | <blomberg> | iterate (\i -> 2 * i^3 + 4) 3 ; i<900 condition is misssing |
| 16:38:00 | <int-e> | (FWIW, I hardly ever use unfoldr. I *do* use the takeWhile/iterate thing quite often.) |
| 16:38:15 | <dminuoso> | blomberg: I would just write explicit recursion. |
| 16:38:24 | <kuribas> | blomberg: iterate returns an infinite list |
| 16:38:34 | <blomberg> | takeWhile (< 10^9) (iterate (\i -> 2*i^3 + 4) 3) is that i<10^9? |
| 16:39:02 | <int-e> | (< 10^9) is the same as (\i -> i < 10^9) |
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| 16:39:11 | <kuribas> | (< 10^9) == (\i -> i < 10^9) |
| 16:39:40 | <dminuoso> | % f = go 0 where go i | i < 900 = go (2 * i^3 + 4); go i = i |
| 16:39:40 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 16:39:48 | <dminuoso> | blomberg: Is how I would write it I guess? |
| 16:40:08 | <int-e> | % f |
| 16:40:08 | <yahb2> | 4599940 |
| 16:40:26 | <dminuoso> | Oh, it should start at 3, sorry |
| 16:40:28 | <dminuoso> | % f = go 3 where go i | i < 900 = go (2 * i^3 + 4); go i = i |
| 16:40:28 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 16:40:31 | <dminuoso> | f |
| 16:40:32 | <dminuoso> | % f |
| 16:40:32 | <yahb2> | 390228 |
| 16:41:16 | <dminuoso> | blomberg: With a slight bit of squinting, it looks the same as: i=3; while (i < 900) { i=2*i^3+4 } |
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| 16:41:46 | <blomberg> | takeWhile (< 10^9) (iterate (restofLOOPCODE + \i -> 2*i^3 + 4) 3) can resofLOOPCODE be a function; i see it's much more complex functionally |
| 16:42:26 | <kuribas> | blomberg: you cannot add to a function |
| 16:42:55 | <blomberg> | i know |
| 16:43:17 | <kuribas> | blomberg: then what is that supposed to do? |
| 16:43:48 | <blomberg> | so overall we need three functions takeWhile , iterate and loopCODE content |
| 16:43:55 | <kuribas> | :t \x -> x + \y -> y*3 |
| 16:43:56 | <lambdabot> | (Num a, Num (a -> a)) => (a -> a) -> a -> a |
| 16:44:17 | <int-e> | kuribas: nice, it looks like a Church numeral now... |
| 16:44:32 | <kuribas> | ok, you CAN add to a function :) |
| 16:44:33 | <int-e> | numbers all around |
| 16:45:06 | <int-e> | lambdabot even used to have a Num instance for functions by default |
| 16:45:15 | <blomberg> | takeWhile (< 10^9) (iterate (restofLOOPCODE) 3) is it valid |
| 16:45:28 | <blomberg> | if the loop is like 5 lines big or more |
| 16:45:34 | <int-e> | (using pointwise evaluation, f + g = \x -> f x + g x) |
| 16:47:55 | <blomberg> | so haskell avoids for loops using fold which is relatively easier than while but this line is way too much takeWhile (< 10^9) (iterate (\i -> 2*i^3 + 4) 3) |
| 16:48:12 | <kuribas> | > let while i t f | t i = i | otherwise = while (f i) t f in while 3 (< 10^9) (\i -> 2*i^3 + 4) |
| 16:48:14 | <lambdabot> | 3 |
| 16:48:30 | <kuribas> | > let while i t f | t i = i | otherwise = while (f i) t f in while 3 (> 10^9) (\i -> 2*i^3 + 4) |
| 16:48:32 | <lambdabot> | 118846194466264708 |
| 16:48:39 | <kuribas> | blomberg: here is your while loop :) |
| 16:48:41 | <int-e> | boolean blindness :) |
| 16:48:50 | <int-e> | it's really "until" now |
| 16:49:20 | <kuribas> | true |
| 16:49:24 | <int-e> | IIRC there's a hackage package provding stuff like that |
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| 16:49:35 | <EvanR> | jeez, it seems like there's a simple piece of code struggling to get out. But it might not fit on a line, which is honestly fine |
| 16:50:14 | <blomberg> | using recursion is much simpler |
| 16:50:32 | <EvanR> | the higher order functions are great only if they do exactly what you want and don't need any shoehorning |
| 16:51:06 | <kuribas> | EvanR: that's why you combine them? |
| 16:52:00 | <kuribas> | but yeah, sometimes a custom recursive function is easier |
| 16:53:03 | <int-e> | @hoogle while |
| 16:53:03 | <lambdabot> | Sound.Tidal.UI while :: Pattern Bool -> (Pattern a -> Pattern a) -> Pattern a -> Pattern a |
| 16:53:03 | <lambdabot> | Development.NSIS while :: Exp Bool -> Action () -> Action () |
| 16:53:03 | <lambdabot> | Language.C.Syntax While :: Exp -> Stm -> SrcLoc -> Stm |
| 16:53:13 | <int-e> | nah |
| 16:53:46 | <int-e> | (but yes to explicit recursion often being the clearest way to write code) |
| 16:54:14 | <blomberg> | if haskell doesn't care about simple computations then how will we even use it but surprisingly it has list comprehenstions which are iterations |
| 16:54:15 | <EvanR> | so you want to write a while loop. First let me introduce you to some category theory xD |
| 16:54:26 | <blomberg> | EvanR:NO |
| 16:54:35 | <EvanR> | this has been a meme |
| 16:54:59 | <int-e> | http://pages.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~robin/class/449/Evolution.htm |
| 16:55:32 | <blomberg> | so in reality how would you even use haskell to do real stuff |
| 16:55:39 | <int-e> | (hmm is there a version of this with properly declared encoding...) |
| 16:56:05 | <dolio> | I don't understand the problem here. If you can do what you want with recursion, then you can do it in Haskell. |
| 16:56:20 | <int-e> | ah, this one seems to work: http://www.willamette.edu/~fruehr/haskell/evolution.html |
| 16:56:25 | <int-e> | @where evolution |
| 16:56:25 | <lambdabot> | http://www.willamette.edu/~fruehr/haskell/evolution.html |
| 16:56:39 | <int-e> | ...why did I think of that last |
| 16:57:25 | <int-e> | @botsnack |
| 16:57:25 | <lambdabot> | :) |
| 16:57:33 | <dolio> | The iterate version doesn't really look that bad to me either, though. |
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| 16:58:18 | <EvanR> | blomberg, if you define real stuff to mean "imperative programming" well we have that too. do notation. But you still need to understand recursion to get iteration |
| 16:58:37 | <int-e> | it's nicely compositional, it often matches how I think of what I want to do: "generate elements by iterating a function... until a certain criterion matches" |
| 16:58:50 | <EvanR> | that being said it's nice when real world doesn't require imperative programming |
| 16:59:08 | <int-e> | so "iterate" does the generation part and "takeWhile" or "dropWhile" checks the criterion. |
| 16:59:44 | <dolio> | I pretty much never find myself wanting functions like `while` above, if that's what's meant, because they just aren't significantly better than writing recursion. |
| 16:59:57 | <EvanR> | it's enlightening to go back and think about all your real world problems and consider where imperative was the best way |
| 17:00:16 | <EvanR> | or if it was just the only way you knew about at the time |
| 17:00:21 | <dolio> | And usually I want to do stuff like pattern guards in my custom function, which are really awkward to use in a function like `while`. |
| 17:00:52 | <int-e> | EvanR: ...array manipulation. |
| 17:00:56 | <dolio> | Or, you wouldn't use them. You'd do something really awkward instead. |
| 17:01:05 | <EvanR> | probably |
| 17:01:09 | <kuribas> | I actually find my haskell code more "real", as in, it focusses on the solution, rather that on the low level implementation. |
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| 17:04:02 | <dolio> | `while x (isJust . f) (g . fromJust . f)` or whatever. |
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| 17:04:23 | <dsal> | I tried doing `real` work in haskell last night, but then found that `real` was actually a postgres alias to float4 and I was using a `Double` which encoded differently in hasql and my tests were failing. So now I'm doing `float8` work instead. |
| 17:04:58 | <EvanR> | 🥁 |
| 17:06:27 | <dsal> | Oh, this codebase does have a `whileM_` in it. |
| 17:06:42 | <kuribas> | dsal: that's why database libraries should have strict conversion for types. |
| 17:06:58 | <kuribas> | dsal: my hasqlator library has it. |
| 17:07:38 | <dsal> | I wrote a ton of code in go for a while. The only loop it's got is `for` so you do that for everything and have to spend a while trying to figure out what the person is trying to accomplish. Haskell simultaneously has no loops and a large number of loops (nearly infinite loops), but what you're doing is always clear. |
| 17:08:25 | <dsal> | kuribas: It was a new and exciting kind of failure for me. My first attempt at hasql, but I at least had good tests. Surprisingly bad failure modes, though. And yeah, would be nice if that weren't possible. |
| 17:08:44 | <dsal> | As a hasql user, would you happen to know how to run a query and dynamically interpret the results? |
| 17:08:56 | <blomberg> | what is hasql just writee haskell or hs |
| 17:09:05 | <dsal> | It's a library for talking to postgres |
| 17:09:09 | <EvanR> | blomberg, I think a good starting paradigm shift is to think about your real task as computing data from some other data. What data do you have, and what data to you need to output. Then use higher level transformations to bridge the gap. Many times you won't need explicit loops for this |
| 17:09:51 | <EvanR> | even in more common languages like ruby, python |
| 17:10:16 | <dsal> | ^ yeah. many of the for loops I read were either fmap or a fold, but they couldn't express that, so they'd do a bunch of junk in the middle of a for loop. |
| 17:10:40 | <kuribas> | dsal: I don't know hasql |
| 17:11:03 | <dsal> | It's nice saying "I know how to make an `a` into a `b`" and then realizing that means you can also make an IO action that maybe produces an `a` into maybe a `b` by using the same thing you've already tested. |
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| 17:11:31 | <dsal> | kuribas: Oh, I see. I thought that was related to hasql. |
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| 17:12:17 | <EvanR> | at least those languages do have map and foldl (reduce) |
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| 17:13:02 | <kuribas> | EvanR: but reduce is discouraged in python |
| 17:13:03 | <dsal> | I thought python really wanted to get rid of that stuff. |
| 17:13:08 | <EvanR> | unsurprised |
| 17:13:25 | <kuribas> | because "there should be only one way to do things" |
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| 17:15:22 | <EvanR> | "that you (the tioowtdi police) know of!" |
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| 17:16:50 | <EvanR> | I have noticed when recently going back to web tech languages there is a big push for uniformity of style in the code, like alarms go off if you do something considered unidiomatic |
| 17:17:01 | <EvanR> | does haskell have that |
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| 17:18:54 | <dsal> | I've worked in a codebase that really tried to push some bizarre concepts in a similar way. That worked quite poorly. |
| 17:19:00 | <EvanR> | maybe a zillion dollar signs in a row is discouraged in haskell xD |
| 17:19:29 | <dsal> | I now work in a pretty large codebase that tries to push you in a direction, but won't get too upset if you go the other way (particularly if you don't force others to do your thing by making it part of your API). |
| 17:19:46 | <dsal> | Personally, I like naming my functions a number of dollar signs. So much easier than naming. |
| 17:20:21 | <darkling> | No, it's cat emojis all the way here. |
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| 17:21:58 | <dsal> | The new hotness in haskell is to use `.` for everything. It's very versatile and since it's so tiny, it hardly takes up any space. |
| 17:22:11 | <EvanR> | when the OS on atari ST crashed it displayed a number of bombs instead of a textual error message, brilliant. The number of bombs was the indicator |
| 17:22:11 | <darkling> | Saves on RAM. :) |
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| 17:25:03 | <EvanR> | by . do you mean function composition, fmap, or Category |
| 17:25:15 | <dsal> | OverloadedRecordDot |
| 17:25:32 | <EvanR> | is that seriously the new hotness? |
| 17:25:43 | <dsal> | Which is kind of like lens composition, but less useful and differently magical. |
| 17:25:47 | <dsal> | People at work seem to like it a lot. |
| 17:27:12 | <dsal> | It helps a lot, specifically, with some of the giant names generated by persistent table mapping stuff. It's kind of like OverloadedLabels, but with half a lens. And it uses `.` |
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| 17:29:48 | <dsal> | (but I still think it's gross and would rather just use lens) |
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| 17:41:22 | <blomberg> | dsal: why you think python is getting rid of reduce(foldl) |
| 17:43:04 | <dsal> | I've not really followed python much. It's not something I look at for examples of good decision making in general, though. |
| 17:43:29 | <blomberg> | `while x (isJust . f) (g . fromJust . f)` wat is this saying |
| 17:44:11 | <c_wraith> | it's saying that loop really should have been written differently |
| 17:44:56 | <dsal> | "while" is particularly confusing when everything's immutable because when is `x` changing? |
| 17:45:09 | <c_wraith> | also, note that `while' isn't a standard library thing, so figure out where it's coming from first |
| 17:45:43 | <blomberg> | c_wraith: differently? |
| 17:46:17 | <EvanR> | while is a function someone defined somewhere |
| 17:46:24 | <EvanR> | presumably |
| 17:46:42 | <dsal> | It's unclear what "while" means in a general sense. What are you trying to accomplish? Is the concept of "while" the best way? |
| 17:46:48 | <c_wraith> | blomberg: it applies f twice each pass through, and it exhibits a case of boolean blindness by depending on a predicate passing before using an unsafe function |
| 17:47:11 | <c_wraith> | dsal: that's not a helpful discussion when exactly what that function does is pretty clear from context |
| 17:47:22 | <ski> | @let let while init test step | test init = init | otherwise = while (step init) test step -- definition given by kuribas above |
| 17:47:22 | <lambdabot> | Parse failed: Parse error: EOF |
| 17:47:29 | <ski> | @let while init test step | test init = init | otherwise = while (step init) test step -- definition given by kuribas above |
| 17:47:31 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
| 17:48:04 | <yushyin> | blomberg: guido really really dislikes functional programming apis. it had come up again and again in the past that he would want to remove it from python if he had the chance. |
| 17:48:51 | <ski> | blomberg : so, first argument, `x' is initial value of the state that it's iterating over. `isJust . f' is checking when to terminate, and `g . fromJust . f' tells how to update the state, otherwise (and then loop back again to testing) |
| 17:48:57 | <EvanR> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/PYwPiyTy that while function on 3 lines for readability |
| 17:50:00 | <int-e> | :t init |
| 17:50:01 | <lambdabot> | [a] -> [a] |
| 17:50:08 | <ski> | in `while 3 (> 10^9) (\i -> 2*i^3 + 4)', it starts at `3', has `(> 10^9)' as termination condition, and updates with `\i -> 2*i^3 + 4' |
| 17:50:26 | <dsal> | c_wraith: I didn't see the definition above, but I still think it's a valid question. If you want to use something called "while" because that's how you'd write a particular bit of code in C, then that's a different answer from "I wish to interact with an API repeatedly until the response meets some criteria." |
| 17:50:34 | <ski> | @type until |
| 17:50:36 | <lambdabot> | (a -> Bool) -> (a -> a) -> a -> a |
| 17:50:38 | <ski> | @src until |
| 17:50:38 | <lambdabot> | until p f x | p x = x |
| 17:50:38 | <lambdabot> | | otherwise = until p f (f x) |
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| 17:51:24 | <ski> | is a standard looping function, of a similar ilk. using a slightly different argument ordering |
| 17:51:27 | <c_wraith> | dsal: but it's a totally natural thing to name such a function if you ignore the meaning of while loops in other languages |
| 17:51:46 | <EvanR> | ah, until is a Prelude function and does the same thing |
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| 17:51:58 | <blomberg> | @src while |
| 17:51:58 | <lambdabot> | Source not found. I've seen penguins that can type better than that. |
| 17:52:07 | <EvanR> | oh harsh |
| 17:52:15 | <ski> | `while' was defined by kuribas above, on the fly |
| 17:52:44 | <dolio> | The predefined one (which I think people rarely use) is until. |
| 17:52:50 | <ski> | yes |
| 17:53:06 | <c_wraith> | that is a weird definition. It returns the first succeeding element? |
| 17:53:27 | <EvanR> | of an iteration |
| 17:53:31 | <dsal> | c_wraith: I don't know if "natural" is the right word. I don't think I would've considered it, but I have mental contamination. |
| 17:54:31 | <c_wraith> | returning the first succeeding doesn't line up with the quoted use. The quoted use only makes sense if you return the last succeeding element |
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| 17:54:37 | <EvanR> | jokerOnTop shuffle standardDeck |
| 17:54:49 | <c_wraith> | Or rather, the element before the first failing element |
| 17:54:50 | <EvanR> | er |
| 17:54:54 | <EvanR> | until jokerOnTop shuffle standardDeck |
| 17:55:20 | <EvanR> | what's "last" ? |
| 17:55:30 | <c_wraith> | see the correction |
| 17:55:49 | <EvanR> | oh |
| 17:55:58 | <EvanR> | also would be interesting to have |
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| 17:58:10 | <dsal> | So both are just uses of `iterate` where `until` returns the first iteration that meets the predicate. What does while return? `Maybe a` for the last one before it stopped satisfying the predicate? |
| 17:59:42 | <ski> | blomberg : as for the `isJust' and `fromJust' stuff .. apparently in `while x (isJust . f) (g . fromJust . f)', `f' is an operation on the state which can fail (in the sense of possibly giving `Nothing' as result). state update/step extracts the non-`Nothing' result (with `fromJust'), and then uses `g' to further transform to the next iteration state. however, if `f' gave nothing, we instead (presumably) |
| 17:59:42 | <dsal> | > until (== 5) succ 0 |
| 17:59:44 | <lambdabot> | 5 |
| 17:59:48 | <ski> | want to terminate with that state (since we cant' move further). however, this means that, with the above definition of `while', there should be an extra negation in the termination test (alternatively it should be using `isNothing') |
| 17:59:49 | <dsal> | > while 0 (== 5) succ |
| 17:59:51 | <lambdabot> | 5 |
| 18:00:45 | <ski> | anyway, `while x (isNothing . f) (g . fromJust . f)' is somewhat annoying, because you're recomputing `f' each time .. so it'd be better to write a looping abstraction directly for such a loop with a "middle of the loop exit condition" |
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| 18:02:18 | <blomberg> | i=1;i=i+2 in hs will throw error , so if hs has a loop it for while it should give error? |
| 18:02:50 | <ski> | (arguably kuribas' `while' from above ought to have negated its termination test anyway, since it sounds like it'll continue loop while the test gives `True', but actually it was defined to do the opposite .. which explains why the above `while' example was out of whack ..) |
| 18:03:26 | <ski> | @type \f g x -> while x (isNothing . f) (g . fromJust . f) -- the type of this alternative looping abstraction |
| 18:03:27 | <lambdabot> | (a -> Maybe b) -> (b -> a) -> a -> a |
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| 18:05:11 | <EvanR> | > i=1;i=i+2 |
| 18:05:12 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:2: error: parse error on input ‘=’ |
| 18:05:24 | <EvanR> | error confirmed |
| 18:05:47 | <dsal> | blomberg: It doesn't have C's for loop. `i` cannot equal both a number and that number plus 2. Whatever you're trying to accomplish can't be done exactly that way. |
| 18:05:51 | <EvanR> | it doesn't look like valid haskell |
| 18:06:01 | <ski> | @let whileDo test step init = case test init of Nothing -> init ; Just mid -> whileDo test step (step mid) |
| 18:06:02 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
| 18:06:07 | <ski> | @type whileDo |
| 18:06:07 | <lambdabot> | (t1 -> Maybe t2) -> (t2 -> t1) -> t1 -> t1 |
| 18:06:45 | <ski> | (or maybe it could be called `whileJust') |
| 18:06:51 | <EvanR> | dsal, i = ⊥ solves the equations right xD |
| 18:07:02 | <dolio> | Yeah. |
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| 18:07:18 | <ski> | @hoogle whileJust |
| 18:07:18 | <lambdabot> | Control.Monad.Loops whileJust :: Monad m => m (Maybe a) -> (a -> m b) -> m [b] |
| 18:07:18 | <lambdabot> | Util whileJust :: (Alternative f, Monad m) => m (Maybe a) -> (a -> m b) -> m (f b) |
| 18:07:18 | <lambdabot> | Control.Monad.Extra whileJustM :: (Monad m, Monoid a) => m (Maybe a) -> m a |
| 18:07:29 | <ski> | hm, those look like something else |
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| 18:09:26 | <blomberg> | ok stop not more of this |
| 18:10:03 | <ski> | `i = i+2' already is a loop (an infinite loop) |
| 18:10:06 | <dsal> | blomberg: What are you actually trying to do? The names are causing a lot of confusion, IMO. |
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| 18:10:14 | <ski> | > let i = i + 2 in i |
| 18:10:16 | <lambdabot> | *Exception: <<loop>> |
| 18:10:25 | <blomberg> | i can't stand haskell code just learnt haskell yesterday |
| 18:10:26 | <dsal> | loops are the exception to that rule |
| 18:10:51 | <ski> | it'll probably grow on you, if you give it time |
| 18:10:59 | <dsal> | I've been learning haskell for years. :) |
| 18:11:24 | <blomberg> | dsal:really? exception? |
| 18:12:14 | <dsal> | blomberg: In that example, ski was trying to define `i` as `i + 2` which means that in order to know what `i` equals, you have to evaluate `i` which is whatever `i` is plus 2. It infinitely recurses (which the runtime recognizes and complains about) |
| 18:12:14 | <EvanR> | haskell is very different. But my previous language was PHP4 so it was simple by comparison xD |
| 18:12:49 | <dsal> | Haskell seems pretty simple relative to other languages I've used. It's got a few parts that are a little complicated like… exceptions. |
| 18:13:28 | <ski> | `=' works like in mathematics, not like in Fortran or C. `i = i + 2' doesn't here mean "update `i' to henceforth refer to two more than what it previously referred to". it means `i' already *is* two more than itself .. so `i' is kinda infinite already |
| 18:14:11 | <dsal> | Sometimes, that's actually what you want. Like in cycle. |
| 18:14:20 | <ski> | > let ones = 1 : ones in ones -- an infinite list of ones |
| 18:14:22 | <lambdabot> | [1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1... |
| 18:15:26 | <blomberg> | ok so i = i+2 is like func x = .... thx i didn't knew assignments were functions! |
| 18:15:28 | <ski> | > let primes = sieve [2 ..] where sieve (p:ns) = p : sieve [n | n <- ns,n `mod` p /= 0] in primes -- an infinite list of all (positive) prime numbers |
| 18:15:30 | <lambdabot> | [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101,... |
| 18:15:44 | <dsal> | blomberg: Assignments aren't functions, they're just definitions. |
| 18:16:07 | <dsal> | You're defining i to be a number plus 2. What number? i. What's i? a number plus two… |
| 18:16:18 | <ski> | `=' is not assignment (as in "update to new value"), in Haskell. it is definition (you could say "single assignment" or "initialization", if you want to. there is no change/update of variables, they are immutable) |
| 18:16:24 | <blomberg> | dsal: f x =... that's a function definition just like f = ... without args |
| 18:17:01 | <blomberg> | fact n = n*fact n-1 |
| 18:17:12 | <EvanR> | it's not even an assignment. It's a defining equation |
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| 18:17:22 | <sm> | is there anything for calling rust from haskell or vice versa, newer than https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/3ms7gm/combining_rust_and_haskell ? |
| 18:17:23 | <dsal> | Yes, that's calling a function. Just like `i = i + 2` is calling a function in its definition. |
| 18:17:26 | <blomberg> | it's a function assignments are functions in haskell |
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| 18:17:39 | <ski> | > let fibonaccis = 0 : 1 : [m + n | m <- fibonaccis | n <- tail fibonaccis] in fibonaccis -- the infinite list of all fibonacci numbers (starting from `0') |
| 18:17:40 | <lambdabot> | [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,... |
| 18:17:44 | <dsal> | Functions all have one argument and one result. `i` doesn't have an argument. |
| 18:17:54 | <blomberg> | because the compiler won't know which syntax is function and which is an assignment |
| 18:18:29 | <dsal> | Not everything you name is a function. That's a weird way of thinking about things. |
| 18:18:42 | <EvanR> | what makes you think there's a function involved there |
| 18:18:44 | <blomberg> | dsal: in haskell we can have a constant function that just returns some other variable |
| 18:19:06 | <dsal> | In haskell, every function takes one argument and returns one value. |
| 18:19:14 | <EvanR> | a constant function: \_ -> 3 |
| 18:19:20 | <dsal> | If you're getting a value out without providing an argument, that's not a function. |
| 18:19:51 | <ski> | `ones' and `fibonaccis' are examples where (slightly more complicated) "cyclic" definitions akin to `i = i + 2' actually work. `primes' uses the function `sieve', which is also recursive (cyclic) .. but that kind of cyclicness shouldn't be quite as novel (although it does generate its infinite result incrementally (just as `ones',`fibonaccis' does), somewhat akin to "generators"/"iterators" in other |
| 18:19:57 | <ski> | languages) |
| 18:20:17 | <dsal> | You're confusing "that calls a function" with "That is a function." You can call functions while naming things, but that doesn't make those things you named functions. |
| 18:20:36 | <dsal> | `i = 1 + 2` calls a function while naming `i` but it doesn't make `i` a function. |
| 18:20:36 | <ski> | (well, `ones = 1 : ones' isn't really much more complicated than `i = i + 2' .. the difference is that `ones' (and `fibonacci's) *work*, while `i = i + 2' doesn't) |
| 18:21:18 | dsal | is being sloppy with "call" here |
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| 18:22:13 | <ski> | (`+' is a function, written as an infix operator) |
| 18:22:27 | <ski> | > (+) 2 3 -- calling it prefix, like any other function |
| 18:22:28 | <lambdabot> | 5 |
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| 18:23:39 | <ski> | > cycle [0,1,3] |
| 18:23:42 | <lambdabot> | [0,1,3,0,1,3,0,1,3,0,1,3,0,1,3,0,1,3,0,1,3,0,1,3,0,1,3,0,1,3,0,1,3,0,1,3,0,1... |
| 18:23:46 | <ski> | cycle xs = ys |
| 18:23:51 | <ski> | where |
| 18:23:52 | <ski> | ys = xs ++ ys |
| 18:24:26 | <ski> | (defines a cyclic (infinite) list that loops around the elements of the input list, repeatedly) |
| 18:24:37 | <blomberg> | map (<2) list ; (<2) is a strange argument as it's not a data type, don't write too much code though not more of hs code please i can't stand it |
| 18:24:59 | <ski> | `(< 2)' is just the "is less than two ?" function |
| 18:25:26 | <ski> | > map (< 2) [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7] |
| 18:25:28 | <lambdabot> | [True,True,False,False,False,False,False,False] |
| 18:25:42 | <blomberg> | ok but if it's anonymouse function \_-> (< 2) |
| 18:25:52 | <EvanR> | \x -> x < 2 |
| 18:25:56 | <c_wraith> | it's already an anonymous function |
| 18:26:04 | <ski> | it's the same as what EvanR just said, yea |
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| 18:26:19 | <c_wraith> | you don't need to eta expand everything |
| 18:27:34 | <ski> | (if you don't want to see more Haskell code for the moment, then perhaps you could take a break. go fetch a coffee, or your choice of brewery .. or take a walk, read a book, or whatever you fancy) |
| 18:27:36 | <c_wraith> | also, mapping (< 2) over a list is a weird thing in and of itself. Whatever code base you're looking at *loves* boolean blindness |
| 18:27:37 | <blomberg> | what i mean is lamda syntax is the only thing i have know for nameless function this is new to me |
| 18:28:01 | <ski> | (if you stay and discuss in #haskell, chances are it's likely you'll see some more Haskell code) |
| 18:28:15 | <dsal> | I guess any partially applied function might be considered lambdas. |
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| 18:28:37 | <blomberg> | < 2 can't be function is this unique syntax to haskell i guess |
| 18:28:51 | <blomberg> | i have never seen this type of syntax before |
| 18:28:52 | <c_wraith> | No, (< 2) is a function |
| 18:28:57 | <c_wraith> | the parentheses are required |
| 18:29:03 | <dsal> | :t (< 2) |
| 18:29:04 | <lambdabot> | (Ord a, Num a) => a -> Bool |
| 18:29:05 | <c_wraith> | It's called a "section" |
| 18:29:05 | <ski> | yea, lambda abstractions are "anonymous functions". but you can have an "anonymous function", witbout writing a lambda abstraction, e.g. if you call a function which gives another function as result .. which is actually what the `(< 2)' example did |
| 18:29:38 | <ski> | @let makeAdder x = \y -> x + y |
| 18:29:40 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
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| 18:29:59 | <ski> | here `makeAdder 2' is an "anonymous function" (equivalent to `\y -> 2 + y') |
| 18:30:16 | <ski> | but `makeAdder 2' itself is not a lambda abstraction (it's just defined to be equal to one) |
| 18:30:32 | <ski> | > map (makeAdder 2) [2,3,5,7] |
| 18:30:34 | <lambdabot> | [4,5,7,9] |
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| 18:31:44 | <ski> | if we wanted to, we could name the anonymous function `makeAdder 2', but calling it e.g. `addTwo' (so then that's not anonymous anymore, it has a (direct) name |
| 18:31:51 | <ski> | @let addTwo = makeAdder 2 |
| 18:31:52 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
| 18:31:58 | <ski> | > map addTwo [2,3,5,7] |
| 18:32:00 | <lambdabot> | [4,5,7,9] |
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| 18:33:57 | <ski> | a "section" is when you supply an infix operator, like `<' or `+' or whatever, with one operand, but not the other. it will give you back a function that expects the other one as input (and then computes the original operator used with those two operands) |
| 18:34:02 | <EvanR> | blomberg, other examples of sections (+ 2), (>> getChar), (:[2,3,4]), (1.0 /) |
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| 18:34:29 | <dsal> | > map (^2) [1..5] |
| 18:34:31 | <lambdabot> | [1,4,9,16,25] |
| 18:34:32 | <dsal> | > map (2^) [1..5] |
| 18:34:34 | <lambdabot> | [2,4,8,16,32] |
| 18:34:43 | <ski> | so `(< 2)' is `\x -> x < 2' the "less than two ?" function, while `(2 <)' is `\y -> 2 < y', the "greater than two ?" function |
| 18:34:53 | <dsal> | You can pick which end of the operator is missing. |
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| 18:35:14 | <ski> | `(^2)' is the squaring function. `(2^)' is the "power of two" function |
| 18:35:22 | <EvanR> | > map (1.0 /) [1..] |
| 18:35:24 | <lambdabot> | [1.0,0.5,0.3333333333333333,0.25,0.2,0.16666666666666666,0.14285714285714285... |
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| 18:35:51 | <ski> | `(1.0 /)' is the "one divided by" function. also called `recip' (short for "reciprocal") |
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| 18:36:51 | <ski> | (`map' calls a given argument function (callback) on each of the elements of the input list, giving back as output a list of all the individual results) |
| 18:37:34 | <dsal> | Naming things is hard. "square" and "cube" and "fourthify" are more painful to read than (^2) and (^3) and (^4) |
| 18:38:04 | <ski> | > [n ^ 2 | n <- [1 .. 5]] -- another way to write that list of squares, using "list comprehension" syntax instead of calling the `map' (higher-order) function. read as : "the list of all `n ^ 2's, where `n' is drawn from the list `[1 .. 5]' |
| 18:38:05 | <lambdabot> | [1,4,9,16,25] |
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| 18:42:16 | <ski> | (.. possibly "bisquare" ? "biquadratic" is sometimes used for degree four polynomials, equations, and forms, in math. also "quartic" is used) |
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| 18:44:57 | <EvanR> | and sometimes 8th power is called Zenzizenzizenzic |
| 18:45:13 | <EvanR> | just kidding |
| 18:45:28 | → | stiell joins (~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell) |
| 18:45:30 | <ski> | blomberg : anyway, if you just want to quickly pass a simple function as an argument, often naming the input to that argument is basically just syntactic noise (and perhaps also a minor headache to come up with an appripriate name for the intermediate value passed to it). there, "anonymous functions" can nicely help side-step the issue, by passing an operator section, or a partially applied function (a |
| 18:45:36 | <ski> | function which has another function as result, when called. such a function is said to use "currying" or be "curried"), rather than explicitly passing a lambda abstraction .. |
| 18:46:00 | <ski> | .. or worse, (also) naming the function that' you're passing (in addition to naming its argument) |
| 18:46:16 | <ski> | > let square x = x ^ 2 in map square [0 .. 9] |
| 18:46:17 | <lambdabot> | [0,1,4,9,16,25,36,49,64,81] |
| 18:46:22 | <ski> | > let square = \x -> x ^ 2 in map square [0 .. 9] |
| 18:46:24 | <lambdabot> | [0,1,4,9,16,25,36,49,64,81] |
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| 18:46:36 | <ski> | > map (\x -> x ^ 2) [0 .. 9] |
| 18:46:37 | <lambdabot> | [0,1,4,9,16,25,36,49,64,81] |
| 18:46:40 | <ski> | > map (^ 2) [0 .. 9] |
| 18:46:41 | <lambdabot> | [0,1,4,9,16,25,36,49,64,81] |
| 18:47:03 | <ski> | these are all equivalent pieces of code .. but readability and style differs |
| 18:47:34 | <ski> | *sometimes* you do want to name the input argument, and possibly the function itself (it helps document the code). but sometimes, it's just a nuisance |
| 18:49:47 | <ski> | (people don't put naming labels on all their loops, in languages like e.g. Java which allow you to label your (`for',`while',`do'-`while') loops (to be able to `break' out from and `continue' with the non-innermost loop) .. similarly, in Haskell, people don't name their loop bodies (being functions) all the time) |
| 18:51:11 | <ski> | > map (map (^ 2)) [[],[0],[1,2],[3,4,5],[6,7,8,9]] -- partial application of a function (`map'), defined in curried style, in action |
| 18:51:13 | <lambdabot> | [[],[0],[1,4],[9,16,25],[36,49,64,81]] |
| 18:51:43 | <ski> | > map (\xs -> map (^ 2) xs) [[],[0],[1,2],[3,4,5],[6,7,8,9]] -- non-partial ("full") application of `map' |
| 18:51:44 | <lambdabot> | [[],[0],[1,4],[9,16,25],[36,49,64,81]] |
| 18:51:54 | <ski> | which of these two would you prefer to read ? |
| 18:52:14 | <EvanR> | so many numbers, maybe some string oriented examples are in order |
| 18:52:33 | <ski> | after a while, with some familiarity with the language, people commonly (not always, though), prefer the former way, not naming each individual list `xs' |
| 18:53:10 | <ski> | > (unwords . map reverse . words) "You wanted words?" |
| 18:53:12 | <lambdabot> | "uoY detnaw ?sdrow" |
| 18:55:47 | <ski> | `.' is function composition. input comes in from the right, passes through each function in the composition chain, on to the next one, final result pops out at the left. this is like Unix pipes (like `sort | uniq | rev | head -n 10'), except using reverse ordering |
| 18:57:10 | <ski> | (that Unix example would correspond more or less to `take 10 . map reverse . nub . sort' .. possibly with `unlines . ' added at the front, and `. lines' added at the end, if you wanted the overall composition to transform a stream of characters to a stream of characters, rather than a stream of lines to a stream of lines) |
| 18:58:35 | <blomberg> | kk |
| 18:58:36 | <ski> | (`(f . g . h) x' does the same as `f (g (h x)))') |
| 18:59:23 | <ski> | anything else you're wondering about, are concerned about, worry about, or annoyed about, blomberg ? |
| 18:59:36 | <blomberg> | kk |
| 18:59:56 | <ski> | > words "Split this string into words, please" |
| 18:59:58 | <lambdabot> | ["Split","this","string","into","words,","please"] |
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| 19:00:31 | <blomberg> | no i am interested in haskell |
| 19:00:50 | <blomberg> | i came here for recursion only |
| 19:00:56 | <ski> | > lines "Or\ninto\nlines\n" |
| 19:00:58 | <lambdabot> | ["Or","into","lines"] |
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| 19:01:22 | <ski> | > (map words . lines) "Or both\ninto\nwords and lines\n" |
| 19:01:24 | <lambdabot> | [["Or","both"],["into"],["words","and","lines"]] |
| 19:02:51 | <ski> | > sortBy (comparing length <> length) (words "The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog") -- sort the words in a list, primarily on word length, secondarily (within each group of words of the same length) using the usual (lexicographic) ordering |
| 19:02:52 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 19:02:52 | <lambdabot> | • Couldn't match type ‘Int’ with ‘[Char] -> Ordering’ |
| 19:02:52 | <lambdabot> | Expected type: [Char] -> [Char] -> Ordering |
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| 19:03:00 | <ski> | er |
| 19:03:04 | <ski> | > sortBy (comparing length <> compare) (words "The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog") -- sort the words in a list, primarily on word length, secondarily (within each group of words of the same length) using the usual (lexicographic) ordering |
| 19:03:06 | <lambdabot> | ["The","dog","fox","the","lazy","over","brown","jumps","quick"] |
| 19:03:08 | <ski> | (sorry) |
| 19:03:16 | <blomberg> | hey stop this scrolling of crap |
| 19:03:48 | <blomberg> | use a /query lambdabot like me, this a chat channel |
| 19:04:22 | <ski> | hey sure, i could stop. i just wanted to show *you* (and perhaps other interested lurkers) a few examples of the concepts that came up into the conversation |
| 19:04:45 | <blomberg> | there is no one here except me |
| 19:04:53 | <EvanR> | nobody here but us chickens |
| 19:04:54 | <ski> | there are often lurkers in here |
| 19:04:55 | <blomberg> | i doubt entire day anyone was here at all |
| 19:04:57 | <chreekat> | 👀 |
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| 19:05:09 | <blomberg> | i am not talking about shadows ski |
| 19:05:36 | <EvanR> | you said you were interested in haskell |
| 19:05:43 | <EvanR> | ski loves that stuff |
| 19:05:45 | <blomberg> | i never said that |
| 19:05:53 | <EvanR> | you did, 6 minutes ago |
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| 19:05:58 | <ski> | i've often seen people say they've learned a lot by lurking and listening in here, seeing what's going on, and if it's something which they can understand at the time (in case it's something they're interested in) |
| 19:07:06 | <blomberg> | do you understand julia and it's crazy array syntax i think julia is crappy given it's complexity |
| 19:07:21 | <EvanR> | I like julia |
| 19:07:48 | <blomberg> | there are 3 ways to declare an array and it's docs too are unclear on how it all works i can't imagine multidimensional arrays and it's docs doesn't say a shit |
| 19:08:06 | <ski> | EvanR : well, it's true, i do :) |
| 19:08:10 | <blomberg> | EvanR: do you know it's complex indexing system |
| 19:08:18 | <EvanR> | yes |
| 19:08:31 | <EvanR> | maybe you should look at haskell Vector instead xD |
| 19:09:36 | <blomberg> | a[2,3,4,2] how to visual multidimensionality using lists python it's very clear |
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| 19:10:46 | <blomberg> | even there docs are terrible |
| 19:10:52 | <EvanR> | a good reason to define higher order operations on matrices and don't worry about the indexes xD |
| 19:11:10 | <blomberg> | https://docs.julialang.org/en/v1/manual/arrays/ |
| 19:11:22 | <EvanR> | er higher level |
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| 19:11:30 | <EvanR> | matrix multiplication, transpose |
| 19:11:31 | <geekosaur> | not sure Haskell Array is much better; Vector exists for a reason |
| 19:11:53 | <blomberg> | no i am talking about nested listed it's easier to visual not matrices |
| 19:12:15 | <EvanR> | a matrix is simply a list of rows (or a list of columns depending on your mood) |
| 19:12:18 | <blomberg> | a[2,3,4,2] is a general list not a matrix you don't understand arrays then |
| 19:12:32 | <geekosaur> | visualize for what? some operations really want a matrix |
| 19:13:21 | <blomberg> | non-homogenous non-same row / column like in pythonic lists first can be [1] then [1,2] no row vs column crap |
| 19:13:30 | <EvanR> | not understanding arrays makes me think there is some "what are arrays really" quote somewhere |
| 19:14:14 | <EvanR> | @quote arrays |
| 19:14:14 | <lambdabot> | gwern says: Haskell has the best arrays around; problem is, we don't know which module it is. |
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| 19:15:01 | <blomberg> | i am talking about non-homegenous lists and that too [ [a], [b,c], [d,e,f] ] so there is no row or column at all but a general list |
| 19:15:39 | <EvanR> | a list of lists can work |
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| 19:15:58 | <blomberg> | problem is julia is very murky in it's docs and doesn't say what's the syntax to access let's say d |
| 19:16:18 | <geekosaur> | apparently engineers and scientists don't exist |
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| 19:16:44 | <blomberg> | but with space or , or ; [a b c] vs [a,c,b] there are two main syntaxes |
| 19:17:24 | <blomberg> | in terms of accessing those elements the docs are just terrible read it if you dont believe me https://docs.julialang.org/en/v1/manual/arrays/ |
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| 19:17:44 | <blomberg> | it's just talking about matrices or homogenous arrays not lists |
| 19:17:48 | <EvanR> | you can comprehend that "jagged" list of lists as a form of matrix if you wanted, to be clear |
| 19:17:53 | <dsal> | What's the link to Haskell WRT Julia arrays? |
| 19:18:06 | dsal | has never used julia |
| 19:18:28 | <dolio> | Yeah, what does this all have to do with Haskell? |
| 19:19:22 | <dsal> | I like Haskell arrays, but they're a little weird. |
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| 19:22:24 | <blomberg> | The ordinary way to index into an N-dimensional array is to use exactly N indices; each index selects the position(s) in its particular dimension. For example, in the three-dimensional array A = rand(4, 3, 2), A[2, 3, 1] will select the number in the second row of the third column in the first "page" of the array. This is often referred to as cartesian indexing. |
| 19:22:53 | <blomberg> | now i mean a= ...what... to get that dimensionality and comma or space syntax |
| 19:23:02 | <EvanR> | haha, nice. Pages |
| 19:23:06 | <blomberg> | so that i can visualize it |
| 19:23:34 | <EvanR> | the 4th number would go deeper into the 4th dimension like a hypercube |
| 19:24:15 | <dsal> | In haskell, we have an abstraction that allows you to use arbitrary types for indexing your arrays. They can be an arbitrary range of numbers (want two-based indexes? have at it) or just a collection of things (e.g., the Blue row of column 9 (the first column). |
| 19:24:17 | <dsal> | ) |
| 19:24:24 | <blomberg> | no no i mean list= [ [2,3], [a,b,c], [d,e,f] ] like in python |
| 19:24:47 | AlexNoo_ | is now known as AlexNoo |
| 19:24:54 | <blomberg> | code visualisation not space visualization |
| 19:24:55 | <EvanR> | you'll need to ask in another channel for julia help probably |
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| 19:25:11 | <dsal> | A list isn't an array, but you can do something like that with lists. Arrays don't have variable cardinality, though. |
| 19:25:12 | <blomberg> | i asked there channel is empty i will try slack tommoroww |
| 19:25:22 | <blomberg> | but this shows how crappy julia is |
| 19:25:24 | <dsal> | I heard this channel is also empty. |
| 19:25:40 | <blomberg> | 46 vs 678 |
| 19:25:47 | <ski> | clearly there are no lurkers here, dsal |
| 19:26:13 | <EvanR> | even (especially?) at the late era patience is key to getting questions answered on IRC |
| 19:26:29 | <blomberg> | on the reception side it's empty not on the answerer side |
| 19:26:41 | <blomberg> | i am the ONLY one here |
| 19:27:05 | <dsal> | If you ask a Haskell question I might be able to help. I don't know any Julia. Doesn't sound like something I should pay attention to. |
| 19:27:31 | <dsal> | I don't think I've used arrays in any Real Code™ (just AoC stuff). |
| 19:27:35 | ski | would suggest waiting at least half an hour (preferably more), after asking a question (or making some relevant comment), in a technical channel, especially slow ones (sometimes you can get a reply after a couple of days, even) |
| 19:28:17 | <dolio> | Also, get a better attitude. |
| 19:28:41 | <geekosaur> | "<blomberg> i am the ONLY one here " that's awfully insulting to ~675 people |
| 19:29:06 | <geekosaur> | especially the ones who've been talking to you |
| 19:29:20 | dsal | got distracted working on Haskell code at work |
| 19:30:03 | <yushyin> | blomberg: https://julialang.org/community/ try the slack, zulip or discord chats? |
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| 19:31:43 | <blomberg> | i nailed it on my own guys a=[1,2,[3,4],5,[6,[1,2]]];a[5][2][2] just eerror and trial and your inspiration |
| 19:31:52 | <blomberg> | positivity can do a lot |
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| 19:32:51 | <dsal> | That doesn't look like valid haskell. What type is `a`? |
| 19:33:12 | <ski> | presumably it's Julia ? |
| 19:33:14 | <dsal> | You I guess you could make a num type that's also a list. |
| 19:33:16 | <EvanR> | I think blomberg has been writing julia in here for the last few hours |
| 19:33:24 | <blomberg> | a[5] is [6,[1,2]] a[5][2] is [1,2] and a[5][2][2] is 2 but i can't a[5,2,2] which is called cartesian indexing |
| 19:33:35 | <blomberg> | few seconds... |
| 19:33:42 | <EvanR> | i=1;i=i+1 |
| 19:34:32 | <ski> | "<blomberg> i=3;while cond;... i=2*i^3+4 ; can fodl do this" -- presumably `foldl' was meant ? |
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| 19:35:27 | <ski> | (from that, blomberg was not only talking about Julia, but also asking about Haskell, at least a bit) |
| 19:36:02 | <EvanR> | good eye |
| 19:36:41 | <blomberg> | this proves julia is wrong it gives wrong result look a=[1,2,[3,4],5,[6,[7,8]]];a[1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1] =>1 what the hell |
| 19:36:44 | <ski> | (that's from a little bit over three hours ago, in case you'd like to check the conversation at that point) |
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| 19:37:44 | <ski> | it seems Julia treats a "scalar value" (a non-array) as an array of length one, blomberg ? |
| 19:37:46 | <blomberg> | it doesn't give Error when it should |
| 19:38:10 | <ski> | (iirc, Matlab & Octave also does this) |
| 19:38:36 | <blomberg> | but i crossed dimensionality bound so that's error |
| 19:38:37 | <ski> | apparently Julia designers thought this was a good idea |
| 19:39:01 | <geekosaur> | perl does the same with lists |
| 19:39:11 | <ski> | (not commenting on whether it is or not, just noting that this is presumably by design) |
| 19:39:40 | <blomberg> | i talked to them and complained about the lack of elegance and quantity of bullshit |
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| 19:40:23 | <EvanR> | julia strives to be like a dynamic language, introducing autoconversions for convenience. But it omits a lot of dynamic typing checks thanks to static types |
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| 19:40:27 | <blomberg> | it would be better if it was more pythonic but they enjoy it |
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| 19:40:41 | <EvanR> | so it's a weird hybrid and good example of how dynamic languages don't need to be slow |
| 19:41:16 | <ski> | hm .. now i'm wondering what Julia does, if you add a vector to a matrix .. or one matrix to another one, having a different width (or height) |
| 19:41:16 | <geekosaur> | seems like complaining about julia in a haskell channel is not ideal. there is #haskell-offtopic for things like that |
| 19:42:06 | <blomberg> | no they enjoy excess baggage for ex: function... end if... elseif end... what is that end; nothing instead of nil; mutable struct..end ; i get tired of writing over and over the same thing |
| 19:42:43 | <geekosaur> | also, unpopular opinion: if you're working with arrays you should be using APL |
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| 19:42:58 | <EvanR> | shots fired |
| 19:43:19 | <blomberg> | EvanR: who fired the shots geekosaur or me? |
| 19:43:29 | <EvanR> | no one just kidding |
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| 19:44:13 | <blomberg> | apparently it's growing more and more popular i asked one of the inventors the growth rate and it will be like python by 2030 |
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| 19:44:48 | <blomberg> | 100k pkges by 2020 |
| 19:44:53 | <blomberg> | 2030* |
| 19:44:56 | <ski> | (if a vector is just a matrix with size in one dimension being one, then should adding two matrices of different sizes have `zipWith'-like behaviour (then matrix-vector addition would truncate, for consistency). or perhaps it should use the product (or least common multiple) of the (respective) sizes of the two matrices ? that does seem not too commonly useful, in the general case) |
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| 19:46:30 | <EvanR> | addition only works when they have the same shape |
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| 19:46:51 | <ski> | there's no scalar-vector or scalar-matrix addition ? |
| 19:47:11 | <ski> | (how about multiplication ?) |
| 19:47:30 | <EvanR> | I did get scalar to work by doing .+ |
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| 19:49:02 | <EvanR> | usually it's DimensionMismatch though |
| 19:49:24 | <EvanR> | whatever * sqrt(2) is fine though |
| 19:50:56 | <blomberg> | EvanR:i have used julia more than you, and i know it has multiple ways of doing similar things unlike python |
| 19:51:14 | <blomberg> | i have seen that excess "baggage" it's not a light weight language |
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| 19:51:47 | <blomberg> | and also the trailing end line... looks so weird like html code |
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| 19:52:21 | <blomberg> | they could've removed it but all four founders lost their minds |
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| 20:00:53 | <ski> | "it has multiple ways of doing similar things unlike python" -- sounds like a good thing (if done tastefully, as orthogonally as reasonably), to me |
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| 20:05:44 | <blomberg> | ok |
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| 20:10:44 | ski | . o O ( <https://wiki.haskell.org/GHC/Data_Parallel_Haskell> ) |
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| 20:37:31 | <blomberg> | ski: it's very complex i nailed it A = [2 6; 4 7; 3 "li"] is not a matrix but works A[5] => 7 linearindexing and cartesian works A[2,2]=>7 ; |
| 20:38:23 | <blomberg> | a=[1, 2, [3, 4], 5, [6, [7, 8]]] only cartesianIndexing works + python indexing not Linear |
| 20:40:01 | <EvanR> | riddle me this: if someone says the maximum length of a URL (here, now) shall be 2048. And you couldn't get further clarification. 2048 what, bytes? |
| 20:40:27 | <blomberg> | a=[1 2 [3 4] 5 [6 [7 8]]] not pythonINdexing works but Linear |
| 20:41:29 | <blomberg> | would you like such several nasty ways of doing the same thing, and the docss don't say either i just figured it out by error and trial, even worse i couldn't find a name for pythonIndexing!! |
| 20:42:18 | <EvanR> | "python indexing" does seem like a good name for python's indexing |
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| 20:47:10 | <blomberg> | it's much worse than i thought not only the name is absent the syntax too is absent in the OFFICIAL documentation a[5][2] type of syntax is not official a part of the language |
| 20:47:47 | <blomberg> | I just DISCOVERED it by error and trial... if now you don't believe me how crappy this language is, i don't know |
| 20:48:03 | <dsal> | I guess I'll stick with haskell, then. |
| 20:48:12 | <blomberg> | https://docs.julialang.org/en/v1/manual/arrays/ I challenge you to find that syntax in the docs here |
| 20:48:29 | <blomberg> | I look the whole docs it's not there |
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| 20:49:19 | <EvanR> | if you think documentation missing is bad, try electrician work |
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| 20:49:48 | <money> | your either a mechanic or not |
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| 20:50:46 | <blomberg> | https://docs.julialang.org/en/v1/manual/arrays/#Typed-array-literals it talks about concatenation but not var[2][3] |
| 20:50:52 | <EvanR> | unless you're a quantum mechanic |
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| 20:53:03 | <dsal> | I need a button to express my appreciation for that joke. |
| 20:53:27 | <money> | quantum mechanic <- still mechanic |
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| 20:55:01 | <EvanR> | the accuracy of the pun was limited by uncertainty principle |
| 20:55:16 | <dsal> | I don't know where you are, but I saw where you were going with that. |
| 20:55:45 | <blomberg> | EvanR:have you had contact with electricians they go and repair like a car mechanic and you expect them to READ that alone is too much let alone docs |
| 20:56:20 | <EvanR> | I resemble that remark |
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| 20:58:25 | <blomberg> | a[5][2] ->Right; a[5] [2] syntax: space before "[" not allowed in "a[5] [" at In[287]:2 so i ctrl+f that page and searched ][ as spaces are not allowed and that is the only pattern null search result. PROVING that docs are crazy. |
| 20:59:09 | <blomberg> | this is not a minor syntax ; this is pythonIndexing syntax that works for the compiler but not in the docs!! |
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| 21:00:01 | <blomberg> | i told you their founders are nutty and you didn't believe me, or atleast the language |
| 21:00:04 | <dsal> | I don't even know what you're trying to do, but I also don't care about julia at all. It's not clear why you're ranting about it here. Is it in any way related to Haskell? |
| 21:00:22 | <blomberg> | dsal: sorry for the rant |
| 21:00:27 | <EvanR> | because monochrom is asleep or busy probably |
| 21:00:29 | <dsal> | Like, I think elm's canonical formatting is awful, but I only rant about it here when it's relevant. |
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| 21:00:49 | <blomberg> | EvanR: what will he do monochrom |
| 21:00:57 | <geekosaur> | I'm thinking this has been going on for long enough and any continuation should be in offtopic |
| 21:00:59 | <EvanR> | use harsh language |
| 21:01:07 | <dsal> | like julia |
| 21:01:33 | <blomberg> | join me on offtopic channel then. which name #haskell-offtopic? |
| 21:01:39 | <geekosaur> | yes |
| 21:01:58 | <geekosaur> | people rant about lots of languages in there 🙂 |
| 21:04:04 | <ski> | blomberg : oh (itym `A[4]', not `A[5]'). i dunno what "python indexing" means, in this context. "would you like such several nasty ways of doing the same thing" -- nah, that just seems like non-orthogonal ways of achieving the same thing, with only minor variations |
| 21:04:47 | ski | goes thither |
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| 21:17:26 | <Guest2922> | can any explain why I get a Non-exhaustive patterns error with this? |
| 21:17:36 | <Guest2922> | prettyPrint :: Size -> [Coord] -> String |
| 21:17:36 | <Guest2922> | prettyPrint size coord = prettyPrint' (size,size) coord where |
| 21:17:37 | <Guest2922> | prettyPrint' (x,y) ((row,col):coords) = case y /= 0 of |
| 21:17:37 | <Guest2922> | True -> case x /= 0 of |
| 21:17:38 | <Guest2922> | True -> case x == row && y == col of |
| 21:17:39 | <Guest2922> | True -> 'Q' : prettyPrint' (x-1,y) coords |
| 21:17:39 | <Guest2922> | False -> '.' : prettyPrint' (x-1,y) coords |
| 21:17:39 | <Guest2922> | False -> '\n' : prettyPrint' (size,y-1) coord |
| 21:17:40 | <Guest2922> | False -> [] |
| 21:18:01 | × | freeside quits (~mengwong@bb115-66-48-84.singnet.com.sg) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 21:18:17 | <geekosaur> | because prettyprint' doesn't handle [] as second parameter |
| 21:18:35 | <geekosaur> | er, prettyPrint' |
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| 21:19:20 | <byorgey> | Guest2922: FYI, in the future, if you have some code to share you can use something like https://paste.tomsmeding.com/ rather than pasting it into IRC |
| 21:20:34 | <Guest2922> | hmm not getting the result I anticipated |
| 21:20:46 | <Guest2922> | prettyPrint 3 [(1,1),(2,3),(3,2)] ==> "Q..\n..Q\n.Q.\n" |
| 21:20:53 | <Guest2922> | supposed to get something like that |
| 21:21:21 | <Guest2922> | *Set9b> prettyPrint 3 [(1,1),(2,3),(3,2)] |
| 21:21:21 | <Guest2922> | ".Q." |
| 21:21:34 | <Guest2922> | looks backwards and doesn't go through all the columns |
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| 21:26:33 | <EvanR> | did you mix up the variable coord and coords? |
| 21:26:56 | <EvanR> | which have the same type and almost the same spelling |
| 21:27:31 | <Guest2922> | I was trying to have it iterate multiple times through the same list |
| 21:27:39 | <Guest2922> | and had a counter in place |
| 21:27:55 | <Guest2922> | I think the counter should accumulate rather than subtract |
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| 21:29:06 | <EvanR> | application notes for the atmega microcontroller suggests running loop counters from top to bottom since checking the Z flag is free/cheap compared to doing an extra comparison each loop </probablyirrelevant> |
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| 21:33:03 | <EvanR> | you seem to have a list of coords which acts as the "set of ON cells", and then using a nested 2D loop, attempting a query to see if you should output a Q or a . |
| 21:33:24 | <EvanR> | it seems to me using an actual Set Coord would make that task more straightforward |
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| 21:34:09 | <Guest2922> | -- Ex 2: Implement the function prettyPrint that, given the size of |
| 21:34:10 | <Guest2922> | -- the chessboard and a list of distinct coordinates of queens (that |
| 21:34:10 | <Guest2922> | -- is, a list of (row,col) pairs), prints the chessboard with the |
| 21:34:11 | <Guest2922> | -- queens on it. Empty squares must be printed as '.'s and queens as |
| 21:34:11 | <Guest2922> | -- 'Q's. The special line break character '\n' must be appended to the |
| 21:34:12 | <Guest2922> | -- end of each row. |
| 21:34:12 | <Guest2922> | -- |
| 21:34:13 | <Guest2922> | -- Examples: |
| 21:34:13 | <Guest2922> | -- prettyPrint 3 [(1,1),(2,3),(3,2)] ==> "Q..\n..Q\n.Q.\n" |
| 21:34:14 | <Guest2922> | -- prettyPrint 3 [(2,3),(1,1),(3,2)] ==> "Q..\n..Q\n.Q.\n" |
| 21:34:14 | × | freeside quits (~mengwong@bb115-66-48-84.singnet.com.sg) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 21:34:14 | <Guest2922> | -- prettyPrint 3 [(1,3),(2,1),(3,2)] ==> "..Q\nQ..\n.Q.\n" |
| 21:34:15 | <Guest2922> | that's the task |
| 21:34:23 | <EvanR> | as it stands I have a hard time trusting your list is in the right order for whatever you're doing to always work |
| 21:35:47 | <EvanR> | they key thing test x == row && y == col |
| 21:37:03 | <EvanR> | the loop iteration might not coincide with the first element being the one you're querying |
| 21:37:24 | <Guest2922> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/IWvazAfA |
| 21:37:38 | <Guest2922> | that only gets me "Q.." |
| 21:37:54 | <Guest2922> | because of the terminating condition with the empty list |
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| 21:38:26 | <EvanR> | you ran out of coordinates before the board indexes were traversed |
| 21:38:59 | <EvanR> | you'll probably have less queen coordinates in the set than squares on the board |
| 21:39:24 | <Guest2922> | yeah but I also have a y counter |
| 21:39:35 | <Guest2922> | so it should reset if that reaches size+1 |
| 21:39:44 | <Guest2922> | False -> '\n' : prettyPrint' (1,y+1) coord |
| 21:40:01 | <Guest2922> | never reaches this and it doesn't seem to work correctly that way |
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| 21:41:37 | <EvanR> | what if resetting is too late |
| 21:43:18 | <Guest2922> | not sure I follow |
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| 21:46:45 | <ski> | Guest2922 : generally, i'd put short (especially non-nested) `case' branches before long ones .. although, you're doing `case' on `Bool', so you could instead be (chaining) `if'-`then'-`else's .. or better, in this case, simply use guards |
| 21:48:23 | <Guest2922> | yeah probably would look cleaner with guards |
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| 22:28:46 | <Inst> | my point that monad /= monad |
| 22:28:52 | <Inst> | represents that monad is an overloaded term |
| 22:29:04 | <Inst> | defining monad as a typeclass / cat theory abstraction is valid, so's a dozen other definitions |
| 22:29:32 | <Inst> | it makes sense to speak of monads as a typeclass / cat theory, but also refer to monad pattern programming |
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| 22:33:14 | <EvanR> | wait wait, I've never heard more than essentially 1 definition of monad, unless you're talking about leibniz or maybe marvel cosmology |
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| 22:34:12 | <EvanR> | or botched identifications such as "jquery is a monad" |
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| 22:34:53 | <monochrom> | Such idle and smug philosophy. One can simply clarify with "monad as in Haskell's type class" or "monad as in category theory" or ... and save everyone a lot of trouble. |
| 22:39:05 | <Inst> | what is actually being asked when someone asks "What's a monad (in the context of programming)?" |
| 22:39:51 | <monochrom> | Well that depends on the asker and the context of the conversation, doesn't it? |
| 22:40:25 | <monochrom> | Generally true of all questions really, no? |
| 22:40:44 | <monochrom> | It's a dead horse. |
| 22:40:48 | <hpc> | it's a bit like asking "what's v in this equation?" |
| 22:41:11 | <Inst> | it's an overloaded question, they want to know what a monadic type is, what monad pattern programming is, what Haskell monad typeclass is, and perhaps what a category theory monad is |
| 22:41:56 | <EvanR> | actually what. No, someone who has no idea might be asking literally what is a monad and not know how many alternatives there would be |
| 22:42:04 | <EvanR> | how could they |
| 22:42:05 | <int-e> | hpc: That sounded properly contextualized, akin to "how is Maybe a monad?" |
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| 22:42:50 | <Inst> | or rather, EvanR, they're not familiar with the overloading |
| 22:42:51 | <EvanR> | usually when this happens, in non-monads, there is a canned response which ignores all nuance. I guess for monads this is "like a burrito" |
| 22:42:57 | <int-e> | ask "what's v in mathematics" and you get a million possible answer |
| 22:43:00 | <int-e> | +s |
| 22:43:06 | <mrianbloom> | Is there a way to read the code that template haskell is generating? |
| 22:43:17 | <geekosaur> | -ddump-splices |
| 22:43:26 | <hpc> | sure, up until someone says "it's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_number" and now you need a deeper explanation |
| 22:43:38 | <mrianbloom> | geekosaur thanks |
| 22:43:55 | <mrianbloom> | There's no ide support for that is there? |
| 22:44:04 | <geekosaur> | not that I'm aware of |
| 22:44:38 | <hpc> | generally you're asking about monads in the implicit context of that you were already talking about something that got you to that point |
| 22:44:57 | <geekosaur> | except you may not have let us in on that |
| 22:44:59 | <Inst> | but the context often still has overloading |
| 22:45:00 | × | califax quits (~califax@user/califx) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 22:45:26 | <Inst> | on Discord and on ##programming, I'm practicing explaining monads |
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| 22:45:36 | <hpc> | i guess it's more like asking "what's v?" |
| 22:45:42 | <geekosaur> | imo that's usually a mistake |
| 22:45:48 | <hpc> | sometimes you're talking to a networking person, sometimes you're talking to a physicist |
| 22:45:55 | <hpc> | or a movie buff |
| 22:46:00 | <EvanR> | calling out that the question makes no sense or isn't specific enough doesn't seem to be helping |
| 22:46:03 | <Inst> | so the context is more like, dealing with a total beginner to monadic programming etc |
| 22:46:20 | <EvanR> | I found a canned response that seems kind of relevant |
| 22:46:30 | <geekosaur> | @where ychim |
| 22:46:30 | <lambdabot> | http://blog.sigfpe.com/2006/08/you-could-have-invented-monads-and.html |
| 22:47:02 | <EvanR> | sure there you go |
| 22:47:41 | <EvanR> | but again, I have to insist they first consider Functor and functorial programming and demand their languages steals that from haskell |
| 22:47:50 | <geekosaur> | I like that one. shows 3 different programming situations and how you'd solve them, then shows that they have a framework in common and we call that "monad" |
| 22:48:49 | <monochrom> | You know what, speaking of overloading, Haskell's solution to overloading is type classing, eh? :) |
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| 22:49:28 | <geekosaur> | what happens when you overload overloading? |
| 22:49:31 | <hpc> | especially if you consider the more precise name for overloading |
| 22:49:35 | <hpc> | type-directed name resolution |
| 22:49:36 | <monochrom> | P.S. Now I have one more reason to continue avoiding Discord. |
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| 22:49:58 | <monochrom> | I prefer type-directed type resolution :) |
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| 22:50:25 | <monochrom> | BTW dependent typing is value-directed type resolution, isn't it? :) |
| 22:52:10 | <hpc> | eh, sort of |
| 22:52:33 | <hpc> | there's not really any "resolution" at that point, since you are already thinking about your types as types and not as a symbol table of some sort |
| 22:52:54 | <hpc> | name resolution is "i typed print(something), what function definition is that?" |
| 22:53:07 | <monochrom> | I just like the "___-directed ___ resolution" template. :) |
| 22:53:35 | <hpc> | and annoyingly also distracts people from the fact that each different print(args) is a completely different function |
| 22:53:42 | <hpc> | that all happen to overlap in the symbol table |
| 22:53:43 | <monochrom> | I may also like to s/name/value/ . I like puns and symmetries and dualities. |
| 22:53:57 | <hpc> | even shakespeare knew the name isn't the thing |
| 22:54:58 | <Inst> | i guess we're not really understanding each other |
| 22:55:20 | <Inst> | i know the literature, i.e, stop making monad tutorials, and grokking monads is essentially a Chan / Zen process |
| 22:55:24 | <Inst> | gotta "feel da monad" |
| 22:56:04 | <Inst> | that just seems like a dumb process to me |
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| 22:56:12 | <davean> | I'd say its more "you have to give up your assumptions" most people only do that via exposure. You can also learn the skill. |
| 22:56:22 | <davean> | Most people aren't exposed to enough new ideas to practice it though. |
| 22:56:25 | <Inst> | i have a friend who's demanding to be spoonfed, and forcing her to "feel da monad" is probably sexual harassment |
| 22:56:44 | <hpc> | the monad tutorial said forget everything you know about monads |
| 22:56:45 | <hpc> | so i did |
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| 22:56:53 | <hpc> | then it started talking about monads, but i didn't know what the hell they were! |
| 22:57:09 | <monochrom> | hpc: Wait, which monad tutorial? |
| 22:57:21 | <monochrom> | Oh haha OK |
| 22:57:21 | <Inst> | i'm thinking, monadic pattern programming -> monad types -> monads as a typeclass / cat theory monads |
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| 22:57:42 | <hpc> | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ3kCxsOjLc |
| 22:58:10 | <monochrom> | heh |
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| 23:00:02 | <Inst> | but is monadic pattern programming a thing? |
| 23:00:22 | <Inst> | that's what i'm sort of looking for, a term for this kind of stuff |
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| 23:01:22 | <jbggs[m]> | Inst Are you trying to understand monads or are you trying to explain monads to someone? |
| 23:01:27 | → | chexum joins (~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum) |
| 23:01:46 | <Inst> | tbh, being able to explain monads without resorting to Zen is equivalent to understanding monads |
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| 23:01:52 | <hpc> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_Patterns#Patterns_by_type if you don't mind being even more confused :P |
| 23:01:55 | <monochrom> | Neither. Trying to talk about trying to explain monads to someone. |
| 23:02:03 | <hpc> | @src Monad |
| 23:02:03 | <lambdabot> | class Applicative m => Monad m where |
| 23:02:03 | <lambdabot> | -- Note: Applicative wasn't a superclass before GHC 7.10 |
| 23:02:03 | <lambdabot> | (>>=) :: m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b |
| 23:02:03 | <lambdabot> | (>>) :: m a -> m b -> m b |
| 23:02:03 | <lambdabot> | return :: a -> m a |
| 23:02:05 | <lambdabot> | fail :: String -> m a |
| 23:02:05 | <hpc> | ^ that's it |
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| 23:02:11 | <Inst> | bleh, i'll go ruin another guineapig on discord |
| 23:02:43 | <hpc> | make sure you're covering the prerequisite concepts first |
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| 23:03:28 | <hpc> | if Monad isn't super easy to explain, you're not explaining it wrong, you just missed something beforehand |
| 23:03:51 | <EvanR> | Zen, what |
| 23:04:36 | <hpc> | EvanR: you've clearly never written the codeless code :D |
| 23:05:36 | <EvanR> | I have combined two opposing causal stream transducers with each other to form a nothing and called it the yin yang unicode character, does that count |
| 23:06:25 | <jbggs[m]> | That's Tao, that's different |
| 23:06:33 | <Inst> | i'm literally reading |
| 23:06:47 | <Inst> | i wonder if nothing === dao |
| 23:07:46 | <hpc> | that's a data access object |
| 23:08:31 | <jbggs[m]> | What do you all think of this comparison: |
| 23:08:31 | <jbggs[m]> | Category Theory : Design Patterns :: Biologists : Zoologist |
| 23:08:42 | <ski> | perhaps there should be a "Monad prerequisites" page .. |
| 23:08:46 | <jbggs[m]> | s/Biologists/Biology/ |
| 23:08:51 | <jbggs[m]> | s/Biologists/Biology/, s/Zoologist/Zoology/ |
| 23:09:05 | <EvanR> | Monad prerequistists: (among other things) Functor |
| 23:09:51 | <EvanR> | made somewhat more complicated by hpc opening up the actual definition of Monad and it doesn't mention Functor xD |
| 23:10:02 | <ski> | @where prerequisite |
| 23:10:02 | <lambdabot> | "Prerequisite for Learning Haskell" <http://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/prerequisite.xhtml> |
| 23:10:56 | <hpc> | it mentions Applicative, which is the better segue from Functor imo |
| 23:11:03 | <EvanR> | ;_; |
| 23:11:18 | <geekosaur> | but that just gives you "so what's Applicative?" |
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| 23:11:59 | <EvanR> | if someone actually gets Functor in whatever process, the job is probably done |
| 23:12:11 | <EvanR> | inertia carries them the rest of the way |
| 23:14:44 | <Inst> | functor is actually extremely easy to explain, just call it mappable |
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| 23:17:33 | <monochrom> | Soon we will be talking about talking about talking about trying to explain monads. |
| 23:18:34 | <EvanR> | monad is easy, call it flatmappable |
| 23:18:48 | <Inst> | what we talk about when we talk about love <3 |
| 23:18:51 | <Inst> | yeah, i know |
| 23:19:02 | <Inst> | that's like the general "explain monads like I'm 5" to an experienced programmer |
| 23:19:04 | <EvanR> | comonad, mapflattable |
| 23:19:22 | <Inst> | functor = map, monad = flatmap |
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| 23:19:34 | <EvanR> | there you go |
| 23:19:55 | <Inst> | afaik it works |
| 23:20:43 | <ski> | no, monad needs `return'/`pure'/`unit/`eta'/⌜η⌝ as well |
| 23:20:47 | <hpc> | instead of foldable we can call it foldmappable |
| 23:21:15 | <Inst> | foldable has a functor constraint? |
| 23:21:41 | <hpc> | there's a method in Foldable called foldMap |
| 23:21:43 | <ski> | EvanR : more like "mapUnflattened" ? |
| 23:21:45 | <Inst> | i'm looking for the spoonfed "explain monads like I'm 5" to an inexperienced programmer who's never heard of map / flatmap |
| 23:22:27 | <ski> | "foldable has a functor constraint?" -- it doesn't |
| 23:22:48 | <Inst> | ummm, okay, iirc foldmap is implemented via Endo and appEndo |
| 23:22:59 | <Inst> | to force a monoid to exist for the <> |
| 23:23:30 | <ski> | it's a type class, every type that's an instance of it can implement it in its own way |
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| 23:25:07 | <EvanR> | I try not to encourage the trend of monads as a "thing that desperately need to be explained, and also are so hard to understand it never works" |
| 23:25:18 | <EvanR> | because it's just another thing among things |
| 23:25:36 | <EvanR> | other things that are cool but no one cares about one way or another, like monoids |
| 23:25:39 | <EvanR> | or functor |
| 23:26:40 | <geekosaur> | agreed, but sadly there's already this meme that haskell is about monads and monads are incomprehensible |
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| 23:27:04 | ski | . o O ( multiplate ) |
| 23:27:20 | <hpc> | just tell them to enable MonadComprehensions |
| 23:27:25 | <EvanR> | lol |
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| 23:27:59 | <ski> | that's surely aid comprehension |
| 23:28:11 | <hpc> | i mean... maybe? |
| 23:29:09 | <ski> | should also enable `TransformListComp', employing familiarity with SQL |
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| 23:46:26 | <Axman6> | I've always found this is quite a good article to dispel the "monads are difficult" idea: https://tomstu.art/refactoring-ruby-with-monads |
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| 23:59:18 | <hpc> | like many things in programming, it's only as difficult as you make it |
| 23:59:45 | <monochrom> | In fact, like many things in general. |
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