Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2022-11-29 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:27:14 <jackdk> Axman6: whatcha doing?
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00:42:03 <Axman6> just some encoding code at #work
00:43:32 <Axman6> full code is foldr (\c -> maybe (c:) (++) (lookup c encodeTable)) ""
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00:48:44 <jackdk> so basically everything encodes as itself unless there's an entry for it in the table?
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00:58:40 <[Leary]> % :t \encodeTable s -> s >>= fromMaybe . pure <*> flip M.lookup encodeTable
00:58:40 <yahb2> \encodeTable s -> s >>= fromMaybe . pure <*> flip M.lookup encodeTable ; :: (Monad m, Ord a) => M.Map a (m a) -> m a -> m a
00:59:00 <[Leary]> Axman6: ^ Not sure if better, but it looks like it should be a (>>=) to me.
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01:05:08 <hpc> i think i like Axman6's better
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01:06:51 <hpc> maybe it's just being able to see c in the expression, but it's a lot easier to tell what it's doing
01:08:04 <hpc> s >>= (\c -> maybe (c:) (++) (Map.lookup c encodeTable)) -- perhaps?
01:08:20 <hpc> :t \encodeTable s -> s >>= (\c -> maybe (c:) (++) (Map.lookup c encodeTable))
01:08:21 <lambdabot> error:
01:08:21 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘Map.lookup’
01:08:21 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant one of these:
01:08:28 <hpc> :t \encodeTable s -> s >>= (\c -> maybe (c:) (++) (M.lookup c encodeTable))
01:08:30 <lambdabot> Ord k => M.Map k [k] -> ([k] -> k) -> [k] -> [k]
01:09:03 <[Leary]> That's fair enough. I can only read it easily because I recently got fond of:
01:09:10 <[Leary]> % :t (fromMaybe <*>)
01:09:10 <yahb2> (fromMaybe <*>) :: (b -> Maybe b) -> b -> b
01:09:24 <hpc> hmm, that doesn't look right
01:09:44 <hpc> :t \encodeTable s -> s >>= (\c -> maybe [c] (M.lookup c encodeTable))
01:09:45 <lambdabot> error:
01:09:45 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match expected type ‘a1 -> [k]’
01:09:45 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘Maybe a’
01:09:54 <hpc> :t \encodeTable s -> s >>= (\c -> maybe [c] id (M.lookup c encodeTable))
01:09:56 <lambdabot> Ord b => M.Map b [b] -> [b] -> [b]
01:11:03 × albet70 quits (~xxx@2400:8902::f03c:92ff:fe60:98d8) (Remote host closed the connection)
01:11:59 <hpc> :t \encodeTable s -> s >>= (\c -> fromMaybe [c] (M.lookup c encodeTable))
01:12:01 <lambdabot> Ord b => M.Map b [b] -> [b] -> [b]
01:12:14 <hpc> that's probably the best mix of brevity and clarity?
01:14:33 <[Leary]> Or \c -> M.findWithDefault [c] c encodeTable
01:15:11 <hpc> ooh, that's good
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01:50:03 <Axman6> encodeTable isn't an argument that needs to be passed in
01:58:10 <jackdk> Axman6: `encode = alaf Endo (foldMapOf each) (\c -> maybe (Text.cons c) (<>) (Map.lookup c encodeTable)) ("" :: Text)`
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02:01:23 <jackdk> @pl \c -> fromMaybe (Text.singleton c) (flip Map.lookup encodeTable c)
02:01:23 <lambdabot> liftM2 fromMaybe Text.singleton (flip Map.lookup encodeTable)
02:01:47 <jackdk> Axman6: `encode = foldMapOf each (fromMaybe <$> Text.singleton <*> flip Map.lookup encodeTable)`
02:02:05 <jackdk> works over `Text` too
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02:27:29 <segfaultfizzbuzz> ok so to hell with fast or widely used, what cpu ISA is the most readable/beautiful? or is there really just not that much variation in ISAs?
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02:58:17 <EvanR> segfaultfizzbuzz, EXAPunks maybe
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06:37:52 <Clinton[m]> Anyone know anything about `generic-sop`?... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/0676a65ec774ff66175fa2bdbf89ca48349a1548>)
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08:28:51 <xilo> Hi, how can one write function composition if function has two arguments? f x y = (fst . divMod) x y ?
08:29:25 <xerox> xilo: f x y = (fst . divMod x) y
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08:29:59 <tomsmeding> xilo: summary: not easily
08:30:16 <xilo> ohh, i see
08:30:17 <xilo> ty
08:30:22 <xerox> I do prefer fst $ divMod x y in that case
08:30:23 <tomsmeding> if you really want to, f = (fst .) . divMod
08:30:51 <tomsmeding> but nobody thinks that is clearer than just `f x y = fst (x `divMod` y)`
08:31:37 <xerox> also consider f = div since you drop the mod (-:
08:31:46 <tomsmeding> lol
08:32:04 <xilo> this looks very clear to me f x = (fst . divMod x) 10 isn't it?
08:32:32 <tomsmeding> hm? Did you mean to leave out the '10'?
08:32:40 <xerox> no he fixed the specific y
08:32:40 <tomsmeding> (fst . divMod x) 10 = fst (divMod x 10)
08:32:50 <tomsmeding> then don't write 'f x =' :p
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08:33:06 <tomsmeding> yes it's clear enough, but fst (x `divMod` y) is clearer
08:33:15 <xilo> i change the deffinitio of f lol
08:33:33 <xilo> changed the definition*
08:33:36 <tomsmeding> pointfree style is sometimes nice, but it doesn't always work out nicely; and if it doesn't work out, it's better to just not
08:33:39 <xerox> equivalently f = (`div` 10) or f = flip div 10
08:34:16 <xilo> ok, ty guys!
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08:35:17 <mauke> the general approach involves two steps. step 1: use @pl
08:35:21 <mauke> @pl f x y = (fst . divMod) x y
08:35:22 <lambdabot> f = fst . divMod
08:35:33 <mauke> @pl f x y = fst (divMod x y)
08:35:33 <lambdabot> f = (fst .) . divMod
08:35:41 <mauke> step 2 (usually): recoil in horror
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09:03:01 <Digit> side curiousity query: are there system monitor tools written in haskell? a "hasktop"?
09:03:01 <Digit> ... websearch says: statgrab, System.Remote.Monitoring, System.UDev.Monitor, ekg, System.Metrics, xmobar, ... :3 many misleading false positives? acute exact thing missing? is there like a bpytop/htop in haskell?
09:03:53 <Digit> (and thanks all for the earlier pointers on random, from my prior question. big help.)
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11:24:32 <Guest60> Hiya, quick question. How do you deconstruct a NonEmpty list in a pattern match? Is it just `(x:xs)` ?
11:26:19 <jackdk> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.12.0.0/docs/Data-List-NonEmpty.html says that the constructor is `a :| [a]`, that is, it joins an `a` onto a regular list
11:26:20 <jean-paul[m]> I typed `NonEmpty` into hoogle and got a link to this page, and then I text-searched for "constructor" and got this section - https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.17.0.0/docs/Data-List-NonEmpty.html#t:NonEmpty
11:28:25 <Guest60> ooh so it's `(x :| xs)` , That makes sense
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11:30:51 <jackdk> and then the `xs` is a normal list, so for example the pattern `(x1:|x2 :xs)` will match the first two elements
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11:33:40 <Guest60> gotcha. thanks!
11:34:40 <Axman6> evaluating foldr with a function strict in both arguments: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qla3RXaRPCg
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11:54:04 <tomsmeding> Axman6: that is disturbingly accurate
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12:36:27 <safinaskar> is there work on dependent haskell? does somebody actually write code?
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12:44:14 <tomsmeding> safinaskar: many things need to happen to make DH a thing, and the most effective way to make those happen, currently, is to go one ghc language proposal at a time
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12:44:56 <tomsmeding> and between proposals, people are implementing the previous ones (when they have time and feel like it), and are crystallising what the next one should be precisely
12:45:08 <tomsmeding> the former involves writing code, the latter does not, but both are essential
12:46:03 <tomsmeding> the latter may even be _more_ essential for the longterm goal of getting DH, because there are many who disagree with that goal, and those people will only accept proposals that have intrinsic merit on their own, apart from paving the way to DH
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12:46:48 <tomsmeding> (this despite the fact that a proposal has been accepted at some point to favour changes that _don't_ break DH over changes that do)
12:46:54 <tomsmeding> (if I remember correctly)
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12:54:47 <safinaskar> tomsmeding: ok, thanks
12:55:13 <safinaskar> is it true that even if dependent haskell appears, haskell still will be unsound as a prover?
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12:56:24 <tomsmeding> safinaskar: probably, because of -XTypeInType
12:56:42 <tomsmeding> though I'm not sure on the details, there may be an idea floating around on how to make it sound
12:57:02 <tomsmeding> but I expect the intent of DH is primarily more expressiveness, not necessarily usefulness as a prover
12:57:08 <tomsmeding> agda and idris already exist for that
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13:17:11 <aeroplane> Hey all, I have a small ques, does Haskell have literate types, eg. type of variable 'y' is either "yes" or "no". Thanks.
13:17:43 <aeroplane> Tried searching but unable to find anything
13:18:59 <merijn> aeroplane: What does "literate type" mean?
13:19:52 <darkling> Looks like the kind of thing I'd use an atom for in erlang.
13:20:15 <aeroplane> sorry I meant literal type
13:20:26 <merijn> aeroplane: Not really
13:20:39 <merijn> aeroplane: Normally you'd just define a new type for whatever atoms you want
13:21:16 <merijn> "data YesOrNo = Yes | No" something like that :p
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13:24:08 <aeroplane> merijn: thanks, I didNt know that. It was that simple and I feel like an idiot.
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13:25:10 <merijn> Main reason I don't think anyone bothered with a notion of "atom" is that it's so trivial to define custom datatypes/enumerations
13:27:11 <cepete02> I have a function that returns `Maybe ProcessId`. Using fromMaybe what can I do with the `Nothing` side, ie...  (fromMaybe ? ProcessId)?
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13:30:30 <safinaskar> tomsmeding: idris 2 seems to have type-in-type, too. very recently they made first step to removing this ( https://github.com/idris-lang/Idris2/pull/2076 )
13:32:51 <aeroplane> merijn: Is it possible for Haskell deduce literal type? Lemme explain. Say, if we have a list [("a",1),("b",4),("a",2),("b",3)],
13:32:51 <aeroplane> then, as you can see, the head of all the tuples in the list is always, either "a" or "b". Haskell will display the head as String type. But can it deduce it as 'a | b'?
13:33:19 <aeroplane> Thanks, please pardon my ignorance.
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13:43:32 <jean-paul[m]> cepete02: Do you have a value of `ProcessId` that represents "no process"? If not then I'm not sure it makes sense to try to do what you describe.
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13:56:38 <lortabac> aeroplane: no, this is not possible
13:57:53 <lortabac> aeroplane: what you can do is defining an enum type with two constructors: data AB = A | B
13:58:17 <lortabac> and then the list would be [(A, 1), (B, 4)...]
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14:06:29 <aeroplane> lortabac: thanks for clarifying
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15:53:25 <zzz> i installed hls with ghcup and it gives me "GHC ABIs don't match"
15:53:37 <zzz> how do we solve this?
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15:54:00 <tomsmeding> zzz: did you install ghc using ghcup as well?
15:54:07 <zzz> yes
15:54:15 <tomsmeding> are you using the ghc from ghcup?
15:54:33 <zzz> yes
15:54:37 <tomsmeding> i.e. check that you don't have a ghc from a system package manager lying around, for example, which may come earlier in your path
15:54:58 <tomsmeding> in that case no idea
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15:55:16 <tomsmeding> #haskell-language-server exists
15:55:48 <zzz> been there
15:55:56 <zzz> thanks anyway
15:56:13 <tomsmeding> zzz: is that the full error, by the way? No further information?
15:56:36 <zzz> that's what i could gather for the weirdly formatted logs
15:56:42 <zzz> let me check
15:56:51 <tomsmeding> post full logs? Perhaps other people spot other things
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16:24:54 <zzz> https://paste.jrvieira.com/1669738992743
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16:26:39 <mauke> ah, yes. light gray text on white background. very readable
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16:45:37 <chreekat> ? a bit small but looks ok to me
16:46:48 <geekosaur> scroll down
16:46:56 <geekosaur> the background goes white
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16:49:37 <geekosaur> meanwhile it looks to me like at first it has trouble loading libtinfo.so, then switches to the reported error — which makes me think a different ghc is in play at that point
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17:21:24 <zzz> geekosaur: thank you for noticing. css fails to render quickly on very long pages when shaddowing properties, i know how to fix it
17:23:20 <zzz> geekosaur: probably no ghc at all at that point. this is a fresh vm
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18:00:12 <tomsmeding> zzz: this reads a log like you posted in stdin and prints the actual log on stdout https://paste.tomsmeding.com/2Uwi58r7
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18:02:28 <zzz> thank you
18:02:39 <zzz> why is it this way though?
18:03:19 <sus> trying to calculate euclidian distance for the mooc.fi exercise, am I missing something, the example inputs give me 0 and NaN
18:03:21 <sus> `distance x1 y1 x2 y2 = sqrt ( (x2-x1)^2 - (y2-y1)^2 )`
18:03:55 <mauke> what are the example inputs?
18:04:43 <sus> 0 0 1 1 should produce 1.4142135 and 1 1 4 5 should produce 5.0
18:04:57 <mauke> > let distance x1 y1 x2 y2 = sqrt ( (x2-x1)^2 - (y2-y1)^2 ) in distance 0 0 1 1
18:04:59 <lambdabot> 0.0
18:05:33 <c_wraith> that's not the distance formula
18:05:43 <c_wraith> It's close, but it's got a mistake
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18:06:25 <mauke> oh :-)
18:06:51 <mauke> yeah, clearly 1^2 - 1^2 is 0
18:06:58 <zzz> > let distance x1 y1 x2 y2 = sqrt ( (x2-x1)^2 + (y2-y1)^2 ) in distance 0 0 1 1
18:06:59 <lambdabot> 1.4142135623730951
18:07:41 <zzz> :p
18:08:13 <sus> oh my god
18:08:29 <sus> i cant read
18:08:45 <c_wraith> Been there. Probably had that exact bug several times...
18:08:52 <mauke> "reading is cringe"
18:10:58 <sus> > Couldn't match expected type ‘Double’ with actual type ‘Int’
18:10:58 <sus> doesnt sqrt always return double though?
18:10:59 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:25: error: parse error on input ‘type’
18:11:39 <mauke> not necessarily
18:11:42 <mauke> :t sqrt
18:11:43 <lambdabot> Floating a => a -> a
18:12:06 <mauke> the type is generic, and if ghc deduces that the argument has type Int, it will assign Int to the result as well
18:12:13 <mauke> (and then produce a type error elsewhere)
18:12:55 ← jakalx parts (~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) (Error from remote client)
18:14:11 <mauke> generally speaking, you want to add explicit type signatures to all of your top-level functions
18:14:36 <mauke> and if you still get inscrutable type errors, add types to local definitions as well, until you get an error that makes sense
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18:31:09 <EvanR> sus, that's the correct formula for special relativity
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18:46:32 <LemanR> so I got my next exercise done but I wanted to know if there is a way to define a function inside of a pattern matching block.
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18:48:47 <LemanR> https://bpa.st/7TZQ
18:48:52 <mauke> you can always do let/in in an expression
18:49:10 <LemanR> k will read real quick to see how haskell does this
18:49:55 <mauke> uh
18:50:06 <mauke> why is it called convertYearToSeconds if it takes seconds as input?
18:50:52 <LemanR> Because I don't plan things as I'm doing them lol so it had made sense before on a failed attempt lol
18:51:16 <mauke> you could do something like: ageOn planet seconds = let years = seconds / 31557600 in case planet of ...
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18:51:55 <monochrom> This is why "foo" is a more meaningful name than "meaningful" names. >:)
18:52:19 <LemanR> lol in this case that is literally true as the current name is very misleading lol
18:52:19 <monochrom> And "x" is even more meaningful >:)
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18:53:30 <monochrom> I do start with names like "foo" and let it survive for 10 minutes so I have time to settle on what it should really be and what's a good name.
18:54:02 <LemanR> That's actually a really good tip actually, I should get into that habit
18:54:19 <LemanR> -.- I don's plan when I type half the time to
18:54:44 <monochrom> Even if you have an initial plan, it's always changed.
18:55:09 <monochrom> This is why an older generation recommended "make a prototype, then throw it away".
18:55:18 <geekosaur> "no battle plan survives contact with the enemy"
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18:56:34 <monochrom> To be fair, if you have already written like 1000 webapss, and this is the 1001st time, you don't need that, you already know perfectly what to do.
18:56:34 <mauke> "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face." --Mike Tyson
18:56:54 <monochrom> But otherwise, you are always exploring design options, i.e., learning.
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18:58:45 <EvanR> I name the function what it's supposed to be, and if half way through writing the function, or even after it's written, it's not doing that, just delete everything xD
18:58:59 <EvanR> fatal error
18:59:34 <EvanR> works great when you are writing haskell 1 liner functions
19:00:15 <geekosaur> so you liked those 3 ghc errors that just deleted your source if compilation failed? 🙂
19:00:32 <LemanR> omg I found my favorite way to do this https://bpa.st/3EUQ
19:01:27 <mauke> not bad
19:02:21 <mauke> you can still get rid of some redundancy by doing: ageOn planet seconds = seconds / 31557600 / case planet of Mercury -> 0.2408467; ...
19:02:25 <EvanR> honestly I'd give that ghc feature a try
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19:04:24 <EvanR> am I spoilering by saying ageOn planet seconds = seconds / yearOnPlanet planet
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19:04:55 <LemanR> I already 'solved' it noob style but I always take a while to try to refine it
19:05:01 <LemanR> so no not really
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19:05:15 <EvanR> optimized for sense making
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19:06:20 <EvanR> challenge mode: enhance the program to allow exoplanets
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19:08:07 <LemanR> mauke the only reason I like my version better is because I like the idea of having a named variable. That way in say a month I glance on such code I don't have to think "why did I do this math", the function tells me why the math is there.
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19:09:13 <LemanR> I am trying to see if I can replace .... seconds = where yearConvert or some such as I like the idea of getting rid of the redundant "yearConverts" in the block
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19:09:47 <mauke> ageOn planet seconds = years / case planet of Mercury -> 0.2408467; ... where years = seconds / ...
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19:13:34 <LemanR> https://bpa.st/KU6A niiiiiice
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19:15:44 <EvanR> yearConvert, nice programmer grammar there xD
19:15:57 <mauke> proGrammar
19:16:08 <EvanR> where you take grammatical phrase and reverse it for the purposes of being code
19:16:35 <LemanR> XD for some reason it made sense to my brain to do it like that
19:17:02 <mauke> pickPocket
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19:17:24 <LemanR> wrong, pocketPick ....obviously lol
19:17:39 <LemanR> whatAction apparently lol
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19:17:52 <EvanR> pocket has been picked, mine has
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19:17:56 <mauke> well, a pickpocket is really a pocketpicker
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19:18:01 <EvanR> wait, bad yoda
19:18:27 <LemanR> pocket of mine, picked it has ?
19:18:46 <mauke> inb4 seagulls
19:18:55 <LemanR> maybe if yoda was drinking.....
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19:22:36 <LemanR> you know doing the reverse can make sense. Think if you had a lot of functions, where call this like a collection...a library!, anyway if I forget what I called that thing I do with year I can simply ctrl f (find) type what I'm manipulating (year) then I would find everything i can do with year. So in that sense whatAction might be better
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19:23:11 <LemanR> unless you'd rather find by action and see everything you can convert but the reverse might be more immediately useful
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19:30:52 <monochrom> The right thing to do is that the name should contain both "year" and "second".
19:31:29 <monochrom> This is why "pure :: a -> F a" should be called "pureToImpure" or "impureFromPure".
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19:34:07 <EvanR> LemanR, luckily we have modules to factor out 100 functions that all begin with year that you can do with a year
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19:34:23 <mauke> purée 42
19:34:41 <mauke> monochrom: but it's not a function
19:35:27 <LemanR> and by searching I can learn everything I can do with year :p
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19:36:29 <EvanR> though modules for that purpose have the same problem as OOP, where operations involving 2 types can only go in 1 module
19:37:08 <EvanR> but at least it's not like ruby where anything ever that takes a string as argument is monkey patched into the String class
19:37:14 <monochrom> What is a function?
19:37:37 <mauke> a miserable pile of secrets
19:38:32 <monochrom> What you should search for is "Year" in type sigs. That's really what you can do with a year.
19:39:02 <monochrom> Although, there is a "small" complication. If Year is an instance of Num, now you have to search for "Num" too...
19:39:19 <EvanR> Year can't be Num, it's missing zero
19:39:29 <LemanR> whatTypeAction?!?!
19:39:44 <LemanR> yearFloatConvert
19:40:07 <EvanR> we have conversion type classes which consolidate the conversion verb names
19:40:23 <EvanR> :t fromIntegral
19:40:24 <lambdabot> (Integral a, Num b) => a -> b
19:40:27 <EvanR> :t realToFrac
19:40:28 <lambdabot> (Real a, Fractional b) => a -> b
19:40:33 <EvanR> :t floor
19:40:34 <lambdabot> (RealFrac a, Integral b) => a -> b
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19:41:12 <LemanR> guys, doing the pangram exercise, I actually have to plan this one out first o.0 no hints as I need to solve first.
19:41:18 <EvanR> so yearFloatConvert could be hidden somewhere but accessed via one of those 3
19:41:25 <LemanR> *guys/gals/all
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19:42:52 <EvanR> monochrom, a random internet post claims to reveal what is a function https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/926110/etymology-of-the-word-function-in-mathematics
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19:50:52 <LemanR> omg and I actually feel as though I need ghci running to test parts of my plan as I go. I'm starting to need good habits now o.0
19:51:06 <LemanR> guess today is set up emacs w/ haskell day
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19:54:04 <EvanR> I try to keep ghci open on the side, reloading the file each time something changes so I can test it
19:54:39 <EvanR> unfortunately it seems to be impossible to do when using a cabal run script
19:55:04 <LemanR> my favorite IDE still is Rstudio or at least how they were doing it ~2 years ago (idk if they changed the design).
19:56:35 <EvanR> keeping as much as possible out of IO also helps
19:58:33 <LemanR> I think the language is 'design' with the thought that a programmer should keep as much out of IO as possible. Otherwise the more in IO the more potential for side-effects I think right?
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20:01:00 <mauke> you can basically write C in Haskell by putting everything in IO
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20:03:58 <mauke> :t Foreign.Marshall.Alloc.mallocBytes
20:03:59 <lambdabot> error:
20:03:59 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘Foreign.Marshall.Alloc.mallocBytes’
20:04:00 <lambdabot> No module named ‘Foreign.Marshall.Alloc’ is imported.
20:04:02 <mauke> aw
20:04:17 <mauke> if you put enough effort in, you can even get buffer overflows and memory leaks
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20:08:03 <EvanR> LemanR, well among other things, it's hard to take an IO action and test it in ghci
20:08:22 <EvanR> rather, if it requires resources that came from IO
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20:08:54 <EvanR> or worse, requires an invisible context involving IO
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20:10:01 <LemanR> I'm going to pretend I didn't read any of that and stay a little longer in my haskell noob-bubble lol
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20:48:35 <sm> quite right
20:48:38 <sm> lalalala
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20:49:51 <EvanR> everyone's in a noob bubble
20:49:54 <EvanR> of some size
20:53:47 <polo> True
20:54:49 <segfaultfizzbuzz> whenever i learn a programming language i feel like the semantics is "unbounded"
20:54:58 <segfaultfizzbuzz> is there any fundamental phenomenon behind that
20:55:23 <segfaultfizzbuzz> that is to say, it never feels like the language really totally abstracts everything away, and it never provides a 'regular' way of specifying code
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20:55:41 <EvanR> you mean no one bothered to try to provide semantics
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20:58:29 <segfaultfizzbuzz> i mean even addition doesn't have a nice systematic behavior
20:58:48 <EvanR> are we talking about haskell now?
20:59:02 <segfaultfizzbuzz> i don't know how addition behaves on haskell tbh
20:59:13 <EvanR> depends on the class instance
20:59:37 <EvanR> for Int, it behaves like machine int arithemetic on machine int
20:59:39 <segfaultfizzbuzz> it seems like the ISA needs to support bounded integers..?
21:00:08 <EvanR> for Integer it behaves like integer arithemetic from school
21:00:23 <segfaultfizzbuzz> well okay but there always is overflow and underflow
21:00:29 <EvanR> no?
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21:00:58 <segfaultfizzbuzz> i mean that i can always exceed some maximum integer value
21:01:13 <EvanR> try to exceed max Integer
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21:01:55 <EvanR> (in reality, application concerns would stop you way before that gets anywhere close)
21:02:15 <segfaultfizzbuzz> well then you are using arbitrary precision integers everywhere
21:02:19 <gurkenglas> I remember seeing some Yoneda-like library exporting a function that'll optimize your degenerate nested compositions into the correct order for you, what was it?
21:02:45 <segfaultfizzbuzz> gurkenglas: what's wrong with degenerate code? ;-)
21:03:05 <gurkenglas> segfaultfizzbuzz: not the code, the composition. like foldl on [1..]
21:03:07 <EvanR> point being that when dealing in Integer you don't have overflow and you do know how addition works
21:03:38 <EvanR> and converting to and from Integer is well defined
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21:05:38 <segfaultfizzbuzz> EvanR: but then someone will make a mistake--you probably want to be notified when your application exceeds max int64 or something
21:06:32 <EvanR> how about you use types to know that at compile time instead
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21:06:58 <EvanR> e.g. with smart constructors
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21:07:11 <segfaultfizzbuzz> i don't think i am familiar, starts to sound like dependent types...?
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21:07:51 <EvanR> smart constructors is the low tech way to get pretty good guarantees without needing dependent types
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21:09:23 <gurkenglas> It was striking because the newtype defined in that file was mentioned nowhere in the type of that utility function
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21:09:56 <segfaultfizzbuzz> also, on a related note: i have a rust application which relies on some library,... i needed to update the library and the library forced me to use async, which i have little to no experience with. i got rust async working but encountered *runtime* rather than compile time errors, which made me nervous
21:09:58 <gurkenglas> "would you like to download some more ram" basically
21:10:24 <segfaultfizzbuzz> is there anything unsolved or fundamental about async which pushes compile time errors towards runtime...?
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21:10:57 <EvanR> e.g. you define an abstract type for numbers not exceeding some limit. To make this true, you don't export the constructor for this type. Instead you only provide functions to build values or operate on values that respect it
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21:11:25 <EvanR> then you "know" that if you have that type, it doesn't exceed that value
21:11:37 <EvanR> as long as the module implementing all this has no bugs
21:11:58 <EvanR> reducing the cross section of vulnerable code
21:12:05 <EvanR> apply tests as needed
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21:13:31 <EvanR> segfaultfizzbuzz, plenty of papers which define type systems to guarantee certain properties of concurrent programs
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21:13:49 <segfaultfizzbuzz> EvanR: uh but that's research or...?
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21:14:15 <EvanR> this goalpost is very fidgety xD
21:14:34 <segfaultfizzbuzz> the goalpost is this:
21:14:55 <segfaultfizzbuzz> rust is very compile-time oriented in my general experience and very strict, so i was surprised to be encountering runtime async errors.
21:15:06 <segfaultfizzbuzz> my question is, since the haskell crowd tends to be compiler experts is
21:15:12 <EvanR> you can define type systems / logics to do domain specific things, which makes whatever it accomplishes not fundamentally impossible
21:15:32 <EvanR> which is different from pratically useful
21:15:51 <segfaultfizzbuzz> is this because rust's async is problematic/bad in some way or is this just how async is
21:16:12 <EvanR> however, defining a new language with a type checker that accomplishes some goal can be very useful, practically. If you can do it
21:16:45 <segfaultfizzbuzz> so if you want compile time async code you need a DSL you are saying...?
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21:17:02 <EvanR> as far as I can tell rust stops very specific errors
21:17:10 <EvanR> pretty common ones from C
21:17:18 <EvanR> but not even close to all errors ever
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21:17:59 <segfaultfizzbuzz> i mean i ended up gravitating towards rust because the Just Works coefficient for things i was doing was very high
21:18:53 <EvanR> that in itself sounds very impressive
21:21:00 <segfaultfizzbuzz> i think if haskell just cleaned things up a very little bit i would consider moving over,...
21:21:18 <segfaultfizzbuzz> i am actively watching roclang and might give it a try sometime soon,...
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21:37:39 <safinaskar> segfaultfizzbuzz: possibly you found this: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2002/11/11/the-law-of-leaky-abstractions/
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21:41:10 <segfaultfizzbuzz> safinaskar: that's roughly right, although the tcp/ip example of ip being unreliable can be remedied through redundant connections and sending of data, and the network application code doing that automatically,...
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21:42:48 <segfaultfizzbuzz> this is a good quote from the author: "while these great tools, like [author's pet favorite abstraction]-based languages, let us get a lot of work done incredibly quickly, suddenly one day we need to figure out a problem where the abstraction leaked, and it takes 2 weeks."
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21:47:55 <safinaskar> segfaultfizzbuzz: if you want some small beautiful language without any surprises, consider using haskell and limiting oneself to features (and libraries) listed in haskell report
21:48:34 <safinaskar> segfaultfizzbuzz: another option is using SML language. it is absolutely perfect small language. its type system is proved (as opoosed to haskell)
21:48:50 <segfaultfizzbuzz> SML is pretty much ocaml?
21:49:00 <geekosaur> OCaml has a lot more on top
21:49:03 <safinaskar> segfaultfizzbuzz: but again you will need to stick to features specified in standard, overwise you will encouter real world problems
21:49:06 <geekosaur> it supports OOP, for starters
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21:49:19 <safinaskar> segfaultfizzbuzz: yes, ocaml built on top of sml
21:49:21 <geekosaur> (that's what the O is)
21:49:35 <safinaskar> segfaultfizzbuzz: also, sml and ocaml are not pure functional
21:49:36 <segfaultfizzbuzz> i feel like when i write a program i am dealing with thousands of notifications saying "would you like your program to work? if so, do this thing that everyone knows to do."
21:49:55 <geekosaur> I think you'll find that in pretty much any practical language
21:49:57 <segfaultfizzbuzz> and in my mind i am thinking "we are supposed to have self-driving cars, and i have to tell my program that i want it to work"
21:50:10 <geekosaur> maybe if you stick to non-Turing-complete languages you can escape it
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21:51:14 <safinaskar> segfaultfizzbuzz: also, rust is good in this sense: it will nearly always warn you (via compiler messages) if something is wrong
21:51:38 <safinaskar> segfaultfizzbuzz: as opposed to, say, haskell (haskell doesn't warn on incomplete "case" by default)
21:51:41 <segfaultfizzbuzz> safinaskar: yeah that's why i was asking about async, i had been hitting runtime async errors in rust and was getting nervous
21:51:51 <geekosaur> sorry, to Turing complete lanmguages that don';t let you do anything
21:52:19 <segfaultfizzbuzz> i'm not convinced that languages should be turing complete,... but that's probably for another day
21:52:44 <geekosaur> you contradict yourself
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21:53:11 <safinaskar> segfaultfizzbuzz: nowadays async support is pretty good today. i recommend this article on async programming: https://fasterthanli.me/articles/a-rust-match-made-in-hell (and other articles on same topic)
21:53:17 <geekosaur> any language that can do practical things is going to be non-Turing-complete… and will escape "self-writing"
21:54:56 <geekosaur> UML was perhaps the farthest anyone got on "met me write down what I want and the computer will write it for me"
21:55:03 <geekosaur> *let me
21:56:00 <geekosaur> unless you count COBOL
21:56:08 <segfaultfizzbuzz> lol
21:56:21 <Franciman> uml was a cute idea
21:56:35 <Franciman> but i have pstd because i associate it with xml
21:57:11 <safinaskar> segfaultfizzbuzz: on the other hand rust is too verbose when it comes to memory-related things (.clone(), Box, Rc, etc, etc)
21:57:12 <Franciman> ptsd*
21:57:32 <segfaultfizzbuzz> safinaskar: probably
21:57:33 <safinaskar> segfaultfizzbuzz: if you want just skip all this memory things, you should consider other languages
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21:57:47 <safinaskar> segfaultfizzbuzz: here is article on this: https://blog.darklang.com/new-backend-fsharp/
22:00:10 <safinaskar> segfaultfizzbuzz: i think this article is even more related: https://blog.darklang.com/first-thoughts-on-rust-vs-ocaml/
22:00:27 <segfaultfizzbuzz> part of the reason i use rust is i kinda think that all programming eventually becomes system programming
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22:02:16 <geekosaur> sounds like a typical everything-must-be-under-my-direct-control C/C++ programmer… but then you complain about it
22:02:48 <segfaultfizzbuzz> uh not trying to complain per se
22:03:13 <safinaskar> segfaultfizzbuzz: also, one of problems mentioned in last article is solved by... *ME*! namely "Pattern matching". i wrote rust lib https://crates.io/crates/match_deref , which improves match ergonomics
22:03:38 <segfaultfizzbuzz> :-)
22:04:06 <safinaskar> segfaultfizzbuzz: i don't know whether my lib can improve particular code example author shows, but it seems it can
22:05:58 <safinaskar> segfaultfizzbuzz: i still didn't find language, which combines rust's positive sides (tooling, big community, libs, helpful compiler warnings, strict language free of historic garbagge) and GC found in haskell and ocaml. but i plan to write proof of concept of such language
22:06:35 <segfaultfizzbuzz> (rust does have a GC...)
22:06:41 <segfaultfizzbuzz> (several in fact)
22:07:05 <safinaskar> segfaultfizzbuzz: i hope i will write one in coming months. i simply want to write rust proc-macro, which will implement new language embedded in rust code
22:07:21 <segfaultfizzbuzz> i get the sense that a haskell derivative will win in the long run...
22:07:49 <safinaskar> in my language everything will be implicitly wrapped in std::rc::Rc. all ".clone()" etc will be inserted as needed
22:07:53 <segfaultfizzbuzz> i've played with F# and didn't like it
22:08:14 <segfaultfizzbuzz> safinaskar: https://github.com/microsoft/verona
22:08:20 <safinaskar> so, you will get access to all rust tooling and crates.io and in same time you will not have to deal with all this .clone() etc
22:08:24 <segfaultfizzbuzz> linear resource management is the shit
22:08:41 <segfaultfizzbuzz> i am too dumb to program computers, i want to offload everything to compilers
22:08:43 <safinaskar> segfaultfizzbuzz: if you want i can include you to my list of people to mail when i will done
22:09:24 <segfaultfizzbuzz> safinaskar: well if you link the github repo i will watch it
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22:09:55 <safinaskar> segfaultfizzbuzz: i have no repo for it currently
22:10:52 <safinaskar> segfaultfizzbuzz: but you can watch repo for match_deref ( https://sr.ht/~safinaskar/match_deref-rs/ ). when i create that language, i will link from here
22:11:25 <segfaultfizzbuzz> :-)
22:19:04 <safinaskar> segfaultfizzbuzz: also i reached to same conclusion, i. e. now i use rust for everything. because sometimes i need system programming. and even when i don't need system programming, rust is great, too. rust is better than haskell even for writing provers. here is my arguments: https://paste.gg/p/anonymous/afc1c1a79c39498db8fe3ad49cb866c5
22:19:24 <safinaskar> i posted that text several times here and usually everybody said that i am troll
22:19:50 <segfaultfizzbuzz> thanks i will look. i still think haskell is probably the best community to learn from overall
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23:09:29 <iqubic> I'm getting this warning when I load a file in GHCi:
23:09:40 <iqubic> These modules are needed for compilation but not listed in your .cabal file's other-modules:
23:09:47 <iqubic> Common.Parser Common.Runner
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23:10:28 <iqubic> https://dpaste.com/GLGPS7AWJ
23:10:37 <iqubic> Anyone know what the issue here is?
23:11:16 <geekosaur> how are you running ghci?
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23:16:32 <iqubic> geekosaur: I'm using `cabal repl`
23:16:56 <iqubic> Sorry, had to get food.
23:17:06 <geekosaur> interesting. I wonder if you need to specify the lib component
23:17:22 <geekosaur> (don't worry about getting food, I'm working on dinner myself)
23:18:17 <iqubic> Weird... I haven't specified a lib component.
23:18:55 <geekosaur> looks like you did to me (everything is under line 16)
23:19:29 <iqubic> Like, GHCi is working properly, and is able to find the functions I've got in Common.Runner and Common.Parser
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23:21:54 <geekosaur> it all looks in order to me, so I'm not sure why you'd get that
23:22:39 <iqubic> It's just a warning, and everything's working fine for me right now.
23:22:46 <iqubic> I'm not gonna worry about it too much.
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All times are in UTC on 2022-11-29.