Logs on 2022-12-01 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:29:02	<talismanick>	Are there mature libraries for constraint-based GUI layout?
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00:39:42	<Guest75>	I'm a beginner anyway, but what does that mean constraint-based (in a sense of UI)? Is that something automated?
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00:44:10	<hpc>	it's kind of like css, you say what things are next to each other, what things can be in what size ranges, etc
00:44:21	<hpc>	and everything's position gets calculated based on those constraints, window size, dpi, etc
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03:58:05	<freeside>	thanks for all the help yesterday troubleshooting the cabal situation. I still don't know why stack recommended 3.8.1.0 when it should have recommended 3.6.3.0 for LTS 20.2.
03:58:18	<freeside>	Anyway, I have it working now, with extra-deps pinned to 3.6.3.0.
04:07:36	<Clinton[m]>	does anyone here use HLS with VSCode and know how to see/dump a Template Haskell splice? It seems like HLS has the feature but I don't know how to use it in VSCode: https://github.com/haskell/haskell-language-server/blob/master/docs/features.md
04:08:50	<maerwald[m]>	Clinton: it's a code action
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04:08:58	<maerwald[m]>	refactor.rewrite
04:12:16	<Clinton[m]>	hrmmm weird I'm not getting the little lightbulb popup when I hover over the splice
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04:25:43	<freeside>	say, given that LTS20.2 uses ghc 9.2.5, would it be fair to assume that HLS support for 9.2.5 is in the works, or should I try to build it myself? I see HLS officially supports 9.2.3 and 9.2.4 so by induction it will support 9.2.5
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04:30:01	<maerwald[m]>	freeside: https://www.haskell.org/ghcup/guide/#hls
04:30:09	<albet70>	if there is f :: (String -> IO ()) -> (String -> IO ()) -> IO (), how turn it to ContT?
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04:31:36	<quazimodo>	i'm having trouble understanding how oop's dependency injection relates to functional languages. Some of the things i've read may say 'fp languages dont need it because they're free of sideeffects'
04:31:54	<quazimodo>	but that's not strictly true is it, wouldn't a function that does io to a database ultimately do that while being tested?
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04:32:15	<quazimodo>	or am I naive and there's an easy answer i've missed
04:34:54	<freeside>	maerwald[m]: I am trying the ghcup compile hls on a number of different platforms, because even the example invocations give me a BuildFailed with complaints about "after searching the rest of the dependency tree exhaustively..."
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04:36:32	<freeside>	even `ghcup compile hls --version 1.8.0.0 --ghc 9.2.4` doesn't work for me ... i'm going to try on intel instead of M1 in case it has something to do with that.
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04:37:34	<EvanR>	quazimodo, dependency injection falls into a big set of concepts in OOP that in FP become "just pass in an argument"
04:37:50	<EvanR>	or just use a function
04:38:01	<EvanR>	that takes the dependency as input
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04:40:00	<monochrom>	Yeah "free of side effects" has nothing to do with it. However, "parameters can be functions too!" is the one.
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04:40:57	<EvanR>	sometimes "the return value can be a function" is key
04:41:23	<EvanR>	a function which holds the dependency, like a database connection, in the closure
04:41:55	<jackdk>	quazimodo: In addition to EvanR's point, the argument that you "just pass in" could be a collection of functions that perform the effect you're interested in, rather than a `Handle` or `Connection` or whatever. There is also a lot of research into "effect systems", where you "interpret" some "effect" in one of several different ways. But that uses some pretty advanced features and I'd recommend learning the base language first.
04:42:09	<monochrom>	Many objects are just glorified bundles of glorified functions (rebranded to "methods"), so in FP just remove the Object Obfuscation Pomposity (OOP) and call it a bundle of functions.
04:42:10	<quazimodo>	EvanR: i guess in an oop env such as a .net c# app a lot of dependencies are 'auto injected'; you might be deep down some rabbit hole of function calls & will receive the thing you wanted without having to actually drill that argument down
04:43:05	<jackdk>	You often see a similar effect performed using the ReaderT monad transformer, which also relieves you from manually passing an arg around
04:43:25	<quazimodo>	i kinda had a feeling it would be something like this
04:44:28	<freeside>	"dependency injection" sounds to me like a euphemism for "tramp data" :D
04:44:34	<quazimodo>	monochrom: yeah i'm not a fan of the growing set of concepts in oop world that are just sensible abstractions
04:45:16	<quazimodo>	EvanR: returning functions can be one way to do it, sure
04:46:24	<EvanR>	we have crazy ways to pass in an argument too
04:46:28	<EvanR>	like reflection xD
04:46:57	<jackdk>	And to think that I felt bad talking about effect systems!
04:48:10	<quazimodo>	I get away with 'denpendency injection' in typescript (i don't use the oop features there) by declaring a 'container' module that i populate at the start of the program, or mock at the start of a test, which contains namespaced dependencies
04:48:52	<quazimodo>	the rest of my code has a hard dependency to the 'container', it's not passed down and can't be overridden somewhere down a call stack but it suffices, mostly
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04:50:25	<EvanR>	it kind of sounds like dependency injection was invented in order to stop saying "globals bad" too many times
04:50:43	<EvanR>	or to rename the use of globals so it didn't seem bad
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05:00:25	<albet70>	how to solve passing two continuations to one ContT?
05:01:23	<albet70>	inside ContT to decide using which one continuation
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05:31:05	<Clinton[m]>	can't work out how to expand Template Haskell splices inline in VSCode with HLS 1.7.0.0 on GHC 9.2.2, but is there anyway to dump the splices as part of a cabal build? --ghc-options=-ddump-splices doesn't seem to produce any splice files in the build directory.
05:34:09	<EvanR>	albet70, well it's like passing two IO actions to one race :: IO a -> IO a -> IO a
05:34:23	<EvanR>	race can use the two actions however it wants, internally
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05:38:41	<albet70>	EvanR , how to fit ContT?
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05:40:03	<EvanR>	is the type you want like ContT m a -> ContT m a -> ContT m a?
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05:40:08	<albet70>	if there is only one continuation, so f :: (String -> IO ()) -> IO () can be ContT () IO String
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05:41:26	<albet70>	but now are two continuations, type K = String -> IO (), f :: K -> K -> IO ()
05:41:40	<quazimodo>	would you expect vscode to understand that the variable hazard in `var hazard = await _hazardRepository.FirstOrDefaultAsync((Guid)input.Id)` should be of type Hazard if _hazardRepository is of type IRepository<Hazard, Guid>?
05:41:47	<quazimodo>	ah crap wrong channel, my bad
05:42:09	<albet70>	EvanR , yes, how to turn this f to that?
05:53:51	<freeside>	https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell/Continuation_passing_style#Example:_coroutines
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05:56:34	<albet70>	f :: (String -> IO ()) -> ContT () IO String
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08:41:26	<dminuoso>	monochrom: What makes these "OOP"/"object"/"method" things special is most of the time subtyping, but because you get a tiny bit of syntax sugar sprinkled ontop, its easy to confuse the definition style (have something called `class` and define a method inside there), invoking it via`a.foo()` being a core theme.
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08:41:56	<dminuoso>	But what's really special and not easy to mimic, is `a.foo()` being resolved depending on the type of a with subtyping.
08:43:05	<dminuoso>	Even what these langauges consider as `class` has little to do with encapsulation, but mostly just with subtyping relationships. The fact they give some keywords to control encapsulation is nice, but not not important (given how we can achieve encapsulation just the same, by controlling export lists)
08:44:20	<dminuoso>	So perhaps Java is best called subtyping-oriented, not object-oriented.
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10:44:41	<Scraeling>	Is it possible to get the name of the module where a function from another module gets called with templatehaskell?
10:44:54	<Scraeling>	or in any way
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11:07:16	<dignissmus>	I did my advent of code in Haskell and I'm wondering how I'd write it better https://paste.tomsmeding.com/8qvh8M2P
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11:08:16	<tomsmeding>	Scraeling: do you mean to get the module where a certain name `f` is defined, or the module(s) where a certain name `f` is _used_?
11:08:41	<tomsmeding>	the first you can do, the second is fundamentally impossible because you don't know how many other people are using your code as well
11:09:28	<Scraeling>	Foo.getCallingModule returns Bar when called from module Bar
11:09:51	<tomsmeding>	oh, you want the current module where the splice is being evaluated?
11:09:57	<Scraeling>	Yeah
11:10:24	<tomsmeding>	Scraeling: see the haddocs of https://hackage.haskell.org/package/template-haskell-2.19.0.0/docs/Language-Haskell-TH.html#v:reifyModule
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11:10:55	<tomsmeding>	(i.e. you want thisModule)
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11:25:40	<albet70>	there is haskell tutorial for c programmers like https://wiki.haskell.org/Haskell_Tutorial_for_C_Programmers, I wonder if there is c/cpp tutorial for haskell programmers
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12:11:03	<dminuoso>	My tutorial for c/cpp programming for haskell programmers is https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.17.0.0/docs/Foreign.html
12:11:39	<dminuoso>	In other words: I consider Haskell is a far better C
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12:26:16	<chreekat>	<albet70> "there is haskell tutorial for..." <- I thought that was called Rust :P
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12:51:33	<mauke>	I love declarative programming https://thedailywtf.com/articles/common-variables
12:54:29	<dminuoso>	Is there a kind of `for_ \continue thing -> do { when expr continue; ... }`, or do I have to build my own with Cont?
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12:55:24	<mauke>	I'm not aware of anything other than 'when (not expr) ...'
12:55:59	<dminuoso>	Yeah the more I think, you have to use Cont for this.
12:56:13	<dminuoso>	Unless there were two explicit continuations
12:56:48	<dminuoso>	i.e. `forC_ \skip handle thing -> if a then skip else (handle { do ... })`
12:58:46	<dminuoso>	Or mmm. I think I have an idea.
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13:00:46	<thyriaen>	mauke, made my day
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13:10:31	<Square>	There is no filter for Maybe hidden somewhere in base?
13:11:03	<mauke>	:t catMaybes
13:11:04	<lambdabot>	[Maybe a] -> [a]
13:12:10	<Square>	thanks
13:12:15	<mauke>	:t \p m -> do x <- m; guard (p x)
13:12:16	<lambdabot>	(Monad m, Alternative m) => (t -> Bool) -> m t -> m ()
13:13:33	<chymera>	is there any way to tell ghc to let me use tabs for indentation?
13:14:12	<mauke>	isn't that the default?
13:14:20	<mauke>	or have tabs been outlawed now
13:14:23	<merijn>	chymera: You already can, it just follows the same standard as all unix tools (i.e. tab expands until nearest ttabstop)
13:14:44	<merijn>	mauke: No, still on by defaulted, but using the old unix interpretation of "nearest multiple of 8 tabstop"
13:14:55	<merijn>	So they never do what beginners expect :p
13:15:03	<merijn>	Which is another way of saying: don't use tabs
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13:16:46	<merijn>	Square: See also mapMaybe
13:16:49	<chymera>	merijn: mauke I get warnings like this when compiling https://bpa.st/WT5A
13:16:50	<merijn>	:t mapMaybe
13:16:51	<lambdabot>	(a -> Maybe b) -> [a] -> [b]
13:17:46	<merijn>	chymera: Pretty sure -Wtabs isn't on by default, so you must have enabled it
13:18:02	<chymera>	is there any way to disable that? I mean it's fine if some people have a strong preference for spaces but my stdout is no place for that :D
13:18:14	<chymera>	merijn: so -Wtabs is an option which warns on tabs?
13:18:15	<Square>	merijn, thanks. I always got (>>=), just wondered if there it was hidden in some class instance
13:18:17	<merijn>	ah, wait
13:18:22	<merijn>	-Wtabs is default
13:18:37	<merijn>	chymera: Yes
13:18:50	<mauke>	-Wno-tabs
13:19:04	<merijn>	Square: It's in Data.Maybe :)
13:19:20	<merijn>	So is catMaybes
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13:19:35	<merijn>	But 90% of uses of catMaybes should instead replace a map with mapMaybe :p
13:19:50	<chymera>	ah, so it wants spaces as an input and `-Wno-tabs` simply converts my code to spaces behind the scenes?
13:20:07	<merijn>	chymera: No, -Wno-tabs literally just disables the warning for tabs
13:20:14	<chymera>	ah, ok
13:20:15	<chymera>	cool
13:20:20	<chymera>	how can I globally set that?
13:20:47	<mauke>	"global" within what scope?
13:21:02	<chymera>	either system or user
13:21:11	<chymera>	preferably system but user is also fine
13:22:19	<chymera>	I mean I can alias the command, but there must be some nicer way, right?
13:22:25	<mauke>	not really
13:22:29	<chymera>	:(
13:22:46	<merijn>	That depends on how you build stuff
13:22:49	<mauke>	the best way I can think of is creating a custom ghc script that invokes the real ghc with -Wno-tabs
13:22:57	<mauke>	and make sure your wrapper appears first in PATH
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13:23:26	<merijn>	Well, you could set it in the global ghc-options of ~/.cabal/config, but who knows what possible negative consequences that incurs :p
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13:23:59	<mauke>	alternatively, put {-# OPTIONS_GHC -Wno-tabs #-} at the top of every source file
13:24:15	<chymera>	mauke: yeah, that's what I meant by aliasing
13:24:36	<chymera>	{-# OPTIONS_GHC -Wno-tabs #-} might actually be best for portability
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13:24:52	<merijn>	hmm
13:24:53	<mauke>	but really, at that point it's easier to :set expandtabs softtabstop=-1 shiftwidth=8 or something
13:24:57	<chymera>	that way if anybody else contributes they don't get spammed in stdout
13:25:18	<merijn>	There's no real "Eq a => [a] -> [[a]]" that, basically, consist of repeated applications of span/break, is there?
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13:27:48	<chymera>	mauke: nah, I actually want the tab chars in my code, it's not just that pressing tab is easer
13:28:22	<mauke>	why?
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13:29:00	<mauke>	(Haskell is pretty much the only language where I think physical tabs are inferior)
13:29:26	<merijn>	Some people like to debug obscure tabstop errors :p
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13:33:29	<mauke>	the reason is that unlike most other languages, Haskell's syntax is not based on indentation levels, but making things line up with other things
13:34:23	<mauke>	in other languages I can adjust the width of my tabs and the code will still make sense, whether I use tabstop=3 or tabstop=4 or tabstop=8 or whatever
13:34:49	<TMA>	mauke: there is a combination, some are based on indentation levels (more indented means "in next level")
13:36:50	<mauke>	in Haskell, the starting column of a layout block is determined by the horizontal position of the token following the layout keyword (do, where, let, ...)
13:37:05	<TMA>	I have read a style guide for tabs for levels, spaces for lining up and it produced mixed tab/space sequences ; OTOH it was OK(ish) with any tabstop= setting
13:37:05	<mauke>	which is not necessarily at the beginning of a line
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13:37:46	<mauke>	you can do that, but in the end it's a lot of fiddly (and usually blind) work for little benefit
13:38:36	<mauke>	also, if you apply that rigorously to Haskell, you end up with 0 tabs always because Haskell has no indentation levels, technically :-)
13:38:50	<merijn>	Yes, every so often some religious prophet/heretic (depending on your point of view) will argue that his divine insight has produced a sane way of "tabs in haskell", they're mostly ignored the way you'd ignore a doomsday street preacher
13:40:14	<Unhammer>	When using allocaArray on some Storable, is `poke` used to initialise it, or is that purely based on size/alignment?
13:40:52	<Unhammer>	I now have https://github.com/unhammer/fastText-haskell/blob/arm/Data/FastText/Internal.hsc#L29..L48 but still getting that weird error with the first string having its first chars being strange
13:40:54	<Unhammer>	HOWEVER
13:41:03	<Unhammer>	if I try to get a longer array, it works
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13:42:48	<albet70>	all functions in haskell are inline functions?
13:43:05	<mauke>	no
13:43:26	<albet70>	referential transparency?
13:43:46	<albet70>	why no?
13:44:49	<Unhammer>	if I allocaArray 1, I get "\251\alabel__no" as the first string, 2 gives me "\215\NULlabel__no" (and the second is fine __label__da), 3 gives me "\251\alabel__no" again, 4 "\251\alabel__no", 5 and it finally works
13:44:56	<mauke>	because some of them are defined in other modules
13:45:06	<Unhammer>	>=5
13:45:09	<mauke>	well, and some of them are recursive
13:45:16	<mauke>	you can't fully inline a recursive function
13:45:46	<mauke>	Unhammer: do you have a minimal but complete example that demonstrates the problem?
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13:46:34	<albet70>	what about just non-recursive functions in one module are inline functions?
13:46:51	<albet70>	how about
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13:46:56	<mauke>	now it depends on what exactly you mean by "inline function"
13:47:05	<Unhammer>	mauke,
13:47:08	<Unhammer>	git clone -barm https://github.com/unhammer/fastText-haskell && cd fastText-haskell && nix-shell --run 'cabal test'
13:47:15	<Unhammer>	on apple silicon
13:47:25	<Unhammer>	works fine on linux :(
13:47:45	<albet70>	mauke, inline function in cpp or kotlin java
13:47:53	<mauke>	Unhammer: that doesn't sound very minimal
13:47:59	<mauke>	albet70: cpp doesn't have functions
13:48:06	<mauke>	I don't know kotlin
13:48:21	<albet70>	and java?
13:49:02	<mauke>	I know java basics, but I don't remember its semantics regarding inline
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13:49:46	<Unhammer>	sorry, I know. I'll keep fiddling with it. Was just hoping someone would shout out "you silly person you've mixed up your flux and fibble I remember struggling with this in kindergarten"
13:49:49	<mauke>	oh, it doesn't even have an inline keyword
13:50:17	<merijn>	hmm
13:50:22	<merijn>	Didn't base get sum' recently?
13:50:26	<merijn>	I can't find it
13:51:28	<merijn>	ah, it's just sum was made strict
13:51:30	<merijn>	Thank god
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14:01:05	<merijn>	Entirely unrelatedly...anyone have any good way of automatically shrinking a bug reproducer in a giant codebase? xD
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14:02:49	<merijn>	If not: Is anyone bored? ;)
14:02:59	<mauke>	.oO( pour salt on it )
14:03:21	<merijn>	mauke: I'm already plenty salty xD
14:06:51	<dminuoso>	merijn \| So they never do what beginners expect :p
14:06:58	<dminuoso>	That applies to any behavior of tab you can imagine.
14:07:03	<merijn>	Sure
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14:15:28	<chymera>	mauke: why are tabs inferior in haskell?
14:15:58	<mauke>	see my comments from about 50 minutes ago
14:16:20	<mauke>	actually more like 44
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14:18:32	<chymera>	mauke: oh, hadn't seen that
14:18:48	<chymera>	mauke: I don't think I understand, though... can you give me an example?
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14:21:07	<chymera>	tabs also determine where things are horizontally, no? how is “where things are horizontally” differ from indentation?
14:21:39	<dminuoso>	mauke: Curious, why do you say cpp has no functions?
14:22:22	<mauke>	dminuoso: macros are just token replacement
14:22:28	<mauke>	I don't count that as functions
14:22:45	<dminuoso>	I think they meant C++
14:23:00	<mauke>	yeah, that would make more sense
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14:30:40	<dminuoso>	albet70: In Haskell every binding or function is inlinable, in principle even recursive ones (with some practical limitations). It is a result of referential transparency that lets us do this substitution, and its also the core why learning Haskell is relatively simple.
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14:31:12	<dminuoso>	You can always just substitute a thing with its definition (respecting binders, potentially alpha conversions), and get an equivalent program.
14:31:33	<dminuoso>	However. In practice this wont hold true, because it can have an impact in performance, but that's not a semantic issue.
14:32:21	<dminuoso>	Also, just because it could be inlined, does not mean it will get inlined. In GHC it is the simplifiers job to figure out whether or ot a function is suitable for inlining (but we do have pragmas to control this, namely INLINE, INLINABLE, OPAQUE and phase control with these).
14:34:36	<dminuoso>	Recursive functions could in principle be inlined (at least to a degree, say by just unrolling it), and recursive binding groups are actually inlined to a degree as well.
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14:36:03	<dminuoso>	albet70: Note, that in GHC inlining can easily occur across modules as well - even with polymorphism in the way. There's additional GHC options and pragmas to steer this too.
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14:38:07	<dminuoso>	See https://wiki.haskell.org/Inlining_and_Specialisation for further details on that subject
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14:55:18	<Franciman>	dminuoso: can we say it's a whole-program optimisation?
14:55:49	<dminuoso>	To an extent, sure
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15:00:29	<Unhammer>	mauke, I found my bug :) I was doing struct.label = str.c_str(); fixed by doing strcpy(struct.label, str.c_str())
15:00:45	<merijn>	Unhammer: Classic mistake :p
15:02:02	<Unhammer>	my C was too ++
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15:13:30	<jjhoo>	Unhammer: is that label an array that has been allocated ie. something like char label[256]?
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15:57:05	<albet70>	wonderful
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16:27:00	<pta2002>	Hello, typical noob AOC question incoming, I'm trying to use parsec to parse a list of numbers separated by newlines, with an empty line between them (overkill ik, but trying to dust off my parsec skills), basically turn "1\n2\n3\n\n3\n4\n5" into [[1,2,3],[3,4,5]], but I can't figure out how to do this properly
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16:28:36	<pta2002>	I got the integer parsing and parsing of a single group to work properly (integer = read <$> many1 digit, group = sepBy integer (char '\n')) but now can't figure out how to parse multiple groups, I tried using sepBy group (string "\n\n") but that doesn't work, I guess because the separator is the same, because if I use a diferent character for the group separator it does work
16:29:01	<merijn>	pta2002: Can you pastebin your parser?
16:29:07	<pta2002>	sure
16:29:27	<merijn>	tbh, I don't think parsec has a great "power-to-weight" ratio for the early AoC puzzles
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16:30:36	<pta2002>	yeah it definitely does not, i know I can just do like line <$> splitBy "\n\n" or something like that but wanted to dust off my parsec skills
16:31:04	<pta2002>	merijn: https://gist.github.com/pta2002/dfe130522335cf395857fba1e1cbca8e
16:31:21	<pta2002>	i tried using try there but that doesn't work, just results in an empty list if there's more than one group
16:31:50	<pta2002>	forgot the type definition, but CalorieList is just [[Int]]
16:32:13	<merijn>	sepBy raises red flags
16:32:22	<merijn>	It accepts empty sequences
16:32:26	<merijn>	Which you don't want
16:32:36	<pta2002>	ooooh, yeah, i want to end if it finds an empty sequence
16:32:39	<merijn>	You almost certainly want sepBy1
16:32:55	<merijn>	Since every sequence is "1 or more" numbers
16:33:13	<pta2002>	so you mean sepBy1 on group instead?
16:33:42	<merijn>	"sepBy1 integer"
16:33:44	<merijn>	also
16:33:47	<jean-paul[m]>	pta2002: Are you paying attention to what has been consumed and what hasn't been?
16:33:51	<pta2002>	doesn't work :c keeps complaining about unexpected "\n"
16:33:59	<merijn>	Your \n\n end in parseList has no try
16:34:02	<pta2002>	jean-paul[m]: yeah i mean i guess the issue is it's consuming the \n
16:34:43	<pta2002>	as in, consuming the final \n looking for an extra integer, but it doesn't find it, and just errors out, which is not what i want, just want it to backtrack that one \n
16:35:02	<merijn>	oh, might be lack of newline at the end of input too
16:35:36	<pta2002>	tried parsing "1\n2\n\n1\n2" and that with a \n at the end and it doesn't work
16:36:29	<merijn>	pta2002: Can you include the actual parse logic?
16:36:54	<pta2002>	just running on ghci rn but it's parse parseList "(unknown)" [the string]
16:37:21	<merijn>	What does it return when you run "parse group" on that string?
16:37:43	<pta2002>	unexpected "\n", expecting digit
16:39:22	<merijn>	Wait, what if you try to use parsec's newline?
16:39:27	<pta2002>	so tried making group = (try integer) (char '\n') but get the same issue
16:39:34	<pta2002>	merijn: where?
16:39:49	<merijn>	instead of 'char "\n"'
16:39:55	<pta2002>	same thing
16:39:56	<merijn>	That's a bad habit anyway
16:40:00	<merijn>	No it's not
16:40:14	<pta2002>	uh
16:40:15	<merijn>	\n maps to "platform specific newline representation" in Haskell
16:40:33	<pta2002>	ah no, i meant same thing as in same output
16:40:36	<merijn>	Whereas 'char "\n"' will only parse actual \n
16:40:39	<pta2002>	not same thing as in char '\n' is the same as newline
16:40:40	<merijn>	hmm
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16:43:44	<merijn>	Can't really try it right now, because I gotta get started on dinner. I'd write a wrapper that inspects the actual ParseError and reports the exact character it fails via https://hackage.haskell.org/package/parsec-3.1.15.1/docs/Text-Parsec.html#v:errorPos
16:44:25	<pta2002>	alright, thanks for the help
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16:54:49	<pta2002>	ah! got it!
16:55:07	<pta2002>	I needed to use sepEndBy1 instead of sepBy1 on group
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17:01:51	<merijn>	oh, right
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17:17:07	<Unhammer>	jjhoo, i think so, by allocaArray
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17:43:42	<seydar>	I did AoC day 1 and I am embarrassed by my code: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/9Uux9WXy
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17:44:20	<seydar>	I would appreciate any feedback on how to accumulate the provisions in a more haskellish manner
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17:46:25	<darkling>	I can't lay claim to being haskellish, but this was mine: https://github.com/darkling/AoC2022/blob/main/day01/Main.hs
17:46:52	<darkling>	Read everything in first, then mangle it into shape.
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17:52:49	<mauke>	I take it this is not the american politician
17:53:36	<darkling>	No, Advent of Code.
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17:54:34	<merijn>	darkling: https://github.com/merijn/AdventOfCode/blob/master/Day1.hs
17:54:35	<seydar>	darkling: ahhh foldr! i'm an IDIOT
17:54:57	<geekosaur>	do we have a leaderboard yet?
17:55:04	ChanServ	sets mode +o geekosaur
17:55:08	<merijn>	geekosaur: The old one still works, but might be full
17:55:15	<merijn>	glguy's leaderboard, that is
17:55:31	<darkling>	Heh. I'm not playing that game. It's released at 5am my time. :)
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17:56:13	<merijn>	I think the most useful trick in my version is: sortOn Down :p
17:56:22	geekosaur	sets topic to "https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell \| Admin: #haskell-ops \| Offtopic: #haskell-offtopic \| https://downloads.haskell.org \| Paste code/errors: https://paste.tomsmeding.com \| Logs: https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/browse/lchaskell \| AoC Leaderboard: 43100-84040706"
17:56:31	geekosaur	sets mode -o geekosaur
17:56:56	<darkling>	Also, the top of the global leaderboard today finished both tasks in 53 seconds... I can't compete with that in any language I know. :)
17:58:10	<mauke>	github is being weird
17:58:38	<mauke>	I tried logging in to AoC with my github account, and the button to do so is labeled "Authorize topaz", but I have no idea what topaz is
17:59:25	<tomsmeding>	mauke: topaz is the maker of AoC
17:59:30	<mauke>	oh, it's Eric Wastl's github account name. but the authorization page only lists him by full name
17:59:46	<mauke>	UX fail
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18:07:39	<seydar>	what do I do about hidden packages? I'm trying to use splitOn in Data.List.Split https://paste.tomsmeding.com/ksGCIefo
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18:07:56	<iqubic>	Add split to you cabal file, if you have one.
18:08:34	<seydar>	what if I'm not cool enough to have a cabal file
18:08:51	<iqubic>	How did you install your libraries?
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18:09:48	<geekosaur>	if you're doing things old style then you need to use `-package split` on the ghc command line
18:10:03	<geekosaur>	but really, switch to using either cabal or stack, your life will be much easier
18:10:14	<seydar>	damn, so i need to have a cabal file
18:10:21	<moonsheep>	let me guess: today has been a split-heavy day?
18:10:21	<seydar>	unless we're team stack?
18:10:30	<moonsheep>	question-wise
18:10:47	<geekosaur>	personally I'm a cabal type but there's a fair number of stack users here
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18:10:57	<moonsheep>	I couldn't recommend stack enough
18:10:58	<seydar>	moonsheep: at first I was doing things the amish way, writing haskell the way they did back in the day, but now I'm trying to easy myself into the 21st century
18:11:14	<moonsheep>	I mentioned that because of advent of code
18:11:20	<geekosaur>	moonsheep, I haven't looked but AoC just started and I would not be surprised if it called for split
18:11:33	<moonsheep>	yeah I ended up handrolling split
18:11:35	<moonsheep>	lost me like 2 minutes
18:11:51	<moonsheep>	also I should've loaded the input as text, not string that was a pita
18:11:52	<iqubic>	moonsheep, split is useful for parsing many of the common input formats Eric uses.
18:11:56	<moonsheep>	yeah
18:12:55	<mauke>	ok, maybe I'm cheating, but here's my first solution: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/rhxwvtrX
18:14:19	<iqubic>	I use Megaparsec to parse all of the inputs.
18:14:20	<iqubic>	https://paste.tomsmeding.com/clH0Wblh
18:14:34	<moonsheep>	isn't that a bit overkll?
18:14:48	<moonsheep>	well, except for the days that are about parsing of course (like that network packet one last year)
18:15:08	<iqubic>	moonsheep, yeah
18:15:23	<iqubic>	But I like to learn when doing advent of code.
18:15:34	<moonsheep>	ah
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18:16:01	<darkling>	Me too. I only got to day 3 last year, but that's because I was doing something fairly silly. :)
18:16:34	<darkling>	(Z80 assembly on a SpecNext)
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18:18:24	<iqubic>	moonsheep: Do you remember which day the network packet day was?
18:19:21	<juri_>	hmm. i made a tiny change in my program, in pure haskell, and now get segmentation faults. WTFsprinkles.
18:19:29	<seydar>	how do you all manage all the days for AoC with cabal?
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18:19:46	<iqubic>	Easily...
18:20:23	<darkling>	I'm just going for one directory a day. Filthy, but expedient. :)
18:22:15	<seydar>	yeah darkling that's what i'm trying to avoid. certainly expedient, but... the boilerplate required just to get a simple program to run -- and to do it daily? i must be missing something
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18:22:20	<seydar>	maybe i'm just missing a work ethic
18:22:37	<darkling>	Copy from yesterday...
18:23:17	<moonsheep>	iqubic: no but probably google does
18:23:22	<moonsheep>	https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aadventofcode.com+packets
18:23:26	<moonsheep>	https://adventofcode.com/2021/day/16
18:25:06	<freeside>	erm. I'm trying to build HLS to match LTS 20.2, but I can't get any `ghcup compile hls` incantation to work, with any combination of versions. Is it me? I'm trying ghcup compile hls -v 1.8.0.0 --ghc 9.2.5
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18:25:51	<yushyin>	i have a common stanza for the days modules and a script to generate stubs for Day01-25
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18:26:38	<moonsheep>	freeside: I don't think HLS works with GHC 9.2.5 yet
18:26:42	<moonsheep>	well not sure
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18:26:56	<freeside>	i can't get it to compile even with the versions it's supposed to work with
18:28:21	<freeside>	like, 9.2.4 is supposed to be hls-powered, according to both ghcup tui and https://haskell-language-server.readthedocs.io/en/latest/support/ghc-version-support.html
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18:29:31	<mauke>	my haskell solution: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/Oq7cTCSC
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18:30:48	<freeside>	After searching the rest of the dependency tree exhaustively, these were the goals I've had most trouble fulfilling: haskell-language-server, hls-plugin-api, hls-stylish-haskell-plugin, haskell-language-server:stylishhaskell
18:32:09	<freeside>	seydar: i get all the libraries available by running as a #!stack script, https://github.com/mengwong/adventofcode/blob/bf8eeef5e7f403f01a666341febd43271f63a990/day01/aoc2022-day01.hs#L1-L2
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18:33:10	<mauke>	and from there you can get the second solution by adding (sum . take 3 . sortBy (flip compare))
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18:36:41	<seydar>	I am so close, but I have a type error: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/qVvN6eKU
18:36:49	<seydar>	I'm missing something obvious
18:36:55	<seydar>	Nobody answer, I just realized what I need to do
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18:37:49	<mauke>	environment? what the
18:38:29	<mauke>	:t maximum
18:38:30	<lambdabot>	(Foldable t, Ord a) => t a -> a
18:39:01	<mauke>	> maximum [1, 10, 2, -4, 11, 2]
18:39:02	<lambdabot>	11
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18:39:15	<mauke>	@src print
18:39:15	<lambdabot>	print x = putStrLn (show x)
18:39:39	<freeside>	if we are allowed to go OG Unix Hacker, may I submit $ perl -000 -nle 'for (split /\n/) { $sum += $_ }; print $sum; $sum = 0' < input.txt \| sort -n \| tail -3 \| paste -sd+ - \| bc
18:39:42	<freeside>	lol
18:40:09	<mauke>	freeside: perl -MList::Util=max,sum0 -00 -wE 'say max map sum0(split /\n/), readline' < input
18:40:17	<Vq>	freeside: I don't think we should be allowed.
18:40:19	<seydar>	okay now I'm stumped: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/JUO3jSFG
18:40:44	<freeside>	what's that newfangled List::Util? we didn't have that in my day
18:40:45	<geekosaur>	freeside, I just got the same error trying to build for 9.2.5. I think that means it just isn't supported yet by some dependency.
18:40:51	<yushyin>	mauke: you are lukas mai, aren't you?
18:41:04	<geekosaur>	not sure if there's a way to pass --allow-newer via ghcup compile
18:41:08	<mauke>	freeside: oh yeah, that's brand new from 2002
18:41:16	<freeside>	haha
18:41:21	<mauke>	yushyin: why?
18:41:33	<freeside>	part of me wonders if Raku would be able to do it in like 12 characters
18:41:38	<Vq>	freeside: Is "split /\n/" for emulating awk?
18:41:39	<yushyin>	mauke: i think i remeber you from #perl on freenode
18:42:03	<yushyin>	your nick looks familiar
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18:42:16	<mauke>	yeah :-)
18:42:43	<freeside>	geekosaur: i can't even get it to build for 9.2.4 or any other version it's supposed to support, so i feel like something is wrong more generally.
18:42:45	<mauke>	:t return
18:42:45	<lambdabot>	Monad m => a -> m a
18:42:48	<mauke>	seydar: ^
18:43:10	<freeside>	Vq: the split /\n/ operates against after the -000 takes effect ... that does the paragraph separation
18:43:28	<yushyin>	mauke: i used to use some of your perl libraries ;)
18:43:38	<geekosaur>	I've built hls before so unless this is a 1.8.0.0 bug (last time I did it is 1.7.0.0) I doubt it
18:43:43	<mauke>	cool
18:43:48	<freeside>	i shall try 1.7.0.0
18:44:02	<geekosaur>	figured out how to pass --allow-newer, seems to be building for me now
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18:44:52	<seydar>	mauke: ugh. thank you
18:45:07	<mauke>	freeside: for the second one, perl -MList::Util=sum0 -00 -wE 'say sum0 +(sort { $b <=> $a } map sum0(split /\n/), readline)[0 .. 2]' < input
18:45:13	<geekosaur>	bvut it's building a lot of stuff since I switched to cabal HEAD and XDG mode so everything needs to be rebuilt
18:45:40	<mauke>	seydar: and have a look at 'maximum' and 'print' if you want to shorten your code slightly
18:47:36	<seydar>	mauke: good catch -- updated those too
18:47:51	<freeside>	sometimes you just wanna pipe output to sort(1)
18:48:37	<freeside>	geekosaur: yes, mine is building too now, thank you. https://www.haskell.org/ghcup/guide/#hls seems severely in need of a revision
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18:59:30	<freeside>	mauke: shrank a little further, perl -MList::Util=sum0 -00 -nE 'say sum0 split' \| tail -1
18:59:44	<freeside>	er, sort \| tail -1
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19:05:14	<freeside>	oof. Error: cabal: Failed to build primitive-unlifted-1.0.0.0 (which is required by exe:haskell-language-server from haskell-language-server-1.8.0.0
19:05:23	<freeside>	does XDG mode help fix that?
19:05:36	<geekosaur>	XDG just changes paths
19:05:41	<freeside>	reading
19:06:06	<freeside>	ok. I'm trying to view the build log but the build log is squished into like 6 lines of blue scroll
19:06:07	<geekosaur>	I just failed with that one as well 😞
19:07:24	<freeside>	...glad to hear it's not just me...
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19:08:32	<freeside>	does AoC generate different input data files for different users?
19:09:06	<freeside>	surely they must
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19:10:56	<mauke>	last three digits of my second solution: 041
19:11:37	<mauke>	first number in input: 7896
19:12:54	<freeside>	yeah, everybody gets a different input file, then, so no cheating
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19:13:07	<freeside>	my last 3 digits are 172
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19:15:37	<freeside>	heh, matt might went OG Unix too. https://github.com/mattmight/advent-of-code-2022/blob/main/day-1/calorie-count.awk
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19:24:06	<freeside>	well, i'm giving up on HLS for tonight, but this is really unsatisfactory. https://raw.githubusercontent.com/haskell/ghcup-metadata/master/ghcup-0.0.7.yaml has a section for 9.2.5 right there.
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19:37:06	<geekosaur>	primitive-unlifted sounds like the sort of thing that wouldn't be very portable, tbh
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19:37:11	<geekosaur>	probably just have to wait
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19:41:43	<mauke>	if it were portable, you could probably lift it
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19:55:01	<geekosaur>	fwiw, the log says RuntimeRep(UnliftedRep) is not in GHC.Exts. and in fact there is no such constructor as of 9.2.5, so primitive-unlifted will need some work for 9.2.5
19:56:08	<geekosaur>	freeside ^^
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20:03:19	<freeside>	oy vey
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20:14:12	<geekosaur>	looks unmaintained, last commit almost a year ago
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20:15:47	<ChaiTRex>	Is there some way to log the input and output of a GHCi session to a text file?
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20:16:43	<geekosaur>	aside from something generic like script? no
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20:18:12	<ChaiTRex>	OK, thanks.
20:21:37	<ChaiTRex>	script works nicely. Thanks again.
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20:41:42	<monochrom>	I tell my terminal emulator to have like 1000 lines of scrollback, so I would just need copy-paste.
20:42:39	<monochrom>	Only once in a while insufficient for two runs of LaTeX on a really large file. :)
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21:19:06	<sonny>	What are interfaces called in haskell?
21:19:21	<dsal>	What does "interface" mean to you?
21:20:34	<geekosaur>	I would very strongly suggest you not try to approach Haskell as an object oriented language
21:21:33	<sonny>	dsal java interface
21:21:39	<sonny>	geekosaur I'm just curious
21:21:47	<dminuoso>	sonny: we dont have a directly corresponding mechanism.
21:21:55	<mauke>	haskell doesn't have java interfaces
21:21:57	<dsal>	Languages (programming and human) don't always have concepts that map 1:1 between them.
21:22:01	<dminuoso>	There's two approaches that fit in that general area, which is typeclasses and just data types.
21:22:13	<mauke>	and existential dread
21:22:17	<dminuoso>	Typeclasses allow a bit of subtyping in that respect, but they are not commonly used for interface style programming
21:22:29	<sonny>	eli5 type classes
21:22:43	<dsal>	I don't know many five year old programmers.
21:22:47	<dminuoso>	More commonly you would just define a data type say `data Formatter = Formatter { ... }` and include some functions as fields that specify a kind of interface.
21:22:59	<dminuoso>	And then functions using that interface would just demand a Formatter as an argument `Formatter -> ...`
21:23:16	<sonny>	I see
21:23:32	<dsal>	A better approach is "I'm trying to solve a problem and I'm stuck on this part. How should I approach it in Haskell?"
21:23:45	<sonny>	so I guess the concept is not as important because you can use functions at every level
21:24:03	<dsal>	The concept isn't important because we're not transliterating java code.
21:24:05	<sonny>	dsal I'm not solving anything ... just wondering
21:24:31	<dminuoso>	sonny: typeclasses superficially look like interfaces, in that you can define it and a list of what we call methods (constituents of that interface), and then you can declare an instance of a type for that typeclass (which corresponds to implementing an interface for a given type)
21:24:53	<dminuoso>	and each instance must then implement each method of that typeclass
21:25:01	<sonny>	are they like ML modules?
21:25:04	<dminuoso>	not at all
21:25:06	<mauke>	if you wanted to learn about type classes by example, I'd probably recommend this order: Show, Eq/Ord, Read/Enum, Bounded, Functor
21:25:44	<sonny>	dminuoso no because they don't take parameters or do I misunderstand both concepts?
21:25:50	<Rembane>	sonny: Typeclasses are more like dictionaries/maps with fancy syntax
21:25:52	<dminuoso>	sonny: oh hold on, I was a bit too hasty, I misread that as ML functor for some reason.
21:25:59	<Rembane>	sonny: They do ad hoc polymorphism quite well.
21:26:11	<sonny>	interesting
21:26:23	<mauke>	Show is conceptually close to a java interface; the others add more and more "exotic" features
21:26:24	<dminuoso>	sonny: what do you mean by ML module exactly?
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21:26:56	<sonny>	I mean it literally, I assumed you'd all be familiar with ML
21:27:05	<dsal>	Typeclasses are generally used to express constraints on things. "I can take any type as long as it knows how to do X."
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21:27:36	<sonny>	it'd be hard for me to explain otherwise
21:27:39	<dminuoso>	sonny: okay then no, they are very much unlike from each other
21:27:43	<sonny>	ok
21:28:06	<sonny>	dsal sounds like dependent types
21:28:16	<dminuoso>	on a superficial level typeclasses and interfaces look very similar.
21:28:28	<dsal>	Dependent types are another thing.
21:28:31	<dsal>	:t show
21:28:32	<lambdabot>	Show a => a -> String
21:28:37	<mauke>	class Show a where { show :: a -> String }
21:28:40	<dminuoso>	sonny: but the thing is, we have subtyping wired into that.
21:28:42	<mauke>	(simplified)
21:29:00	<dminuoso>	sonny: so we have a typeclass called Eq, whose methods are == and /=, so its the tyepclass of types that can be compared
21:29:02	<dsal>	`show` can convert any `a` to a `String` as long as the `a` has a `Show` instance.
21:29:07	<Rembane>	sonny: If you know ML by heart this paper might be helpful: https://people.csail.mit.edu/dnj/teaching/6898/papers/wadler88.pdf
21:29:20	<dminuoso>	But we also have `class Eq a => Ord a ...` which requires (but also implies) Eq
21:29:30	<sonny>	not by heart but that does look good, thanks
21:29:44	<mauke>	ooh, the classics
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21:31:12	<mauke>	what's the type of (=) in ocaml nowadays? still 'a -> 'a -> bool?
21:32:15	<dminuoso>	If memory serves right, typeclasses were originally introduced as a way to deal with overloading numbers
21:32:48	<dsal>	It makes sense that `Num` would be old because it feels like a lot of learning can come from that.
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21:34:41	<dminuoso>	Its also curious that Num happens to be one of the things where GHC does not conform to Haskell2010.
21:34:55	<dminuoso>	Because Haskel2010 mandates class (Eq a, Show a) => Num a
21:35:27	<Rembane>	dminuoso: Is Num a superclass to Floating?
21:35:58	<dminuoso>	Yes, via Fractional
21:36:43	<Rembane>	Cool, then I can't see how Eq could be needed for Num.
21:36:59	<mauke>	the problem with (Eq a, Show a) => Num a is that it interferes with making every monad an instance of Num
21:37:29	<geekosaur>	Rembane, mostly so Num literals can be treated as patterns
21:37:44	<Rembane>	geekosaur: That's a very good reason.
21:38:30	<mauke>	you can still treat them as patterns (just add an Eq constraint while type checking), no?
21:38:50	<geekosaur>	yep, but it no longer "just works", you need the constraint
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21:39:38	<mauke>	I mean, you'd desugar 'foo 42' to 'foo x \| x == 42' and any relevant constraints fall out automatically
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21:39:57	<mauke>	if you can add (Num a), you can add (Eq a)
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21:46:58	<rustisafungus>	so this is more of a computational math question so feel free to tell me to take a hike, but i think this has enough of a computer science/research flavor that i thought #haskell was a good place to ask:
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21:47:41	<rustisafungus>	let's say that i am trying to generate samples from a high dimensional distribution, such as a 1 million dimensional distribution
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21:48:19	<rustisafungus>	of course, i can generate samples where each dimension is reasonably statistically independent using a prng
21:48:25	<dminuoso>	mauke: the real problem is that there's some things like infinite sequences you couldnt have a Num instance of
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21:48:54	<rustisafungus>	my question is this: i would like to generate a "bunch" of other distributions
21:49:30	<rustisafungus>	that "bunch" need not be a rigorous construct but ought to emphasize varying levels and types of correlations or relationships between my one million dimensions
21:51:39	<rustisafungus>	so my question is, is there a nice way of generating a "bunch" of distributions? the precise dimension need not be 1 million, it could also be one thousand or somesuch, but it does need to be a fairly substantial number (probably at least 100)
21:51:57	<rustisafungus>	vaguely speaking this would be like quickcheck for distributions
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21:53:02	<darkling>	Work out what kind of variations you want to do, and then ring the changes. So, for example, are they linear in each dimension, or do some dimensions have other statistical distributions?
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21:53:29	<darkling>	(Say, triangular, bitriangular, binomial, beta distribution...)
21:53:30	<rustisafungus>	linear would be fairly easy, i could pick a random ellipse or something and sample from that
21:53:45	<rustisafungus>	but i am thinking "lots of varying and complex relationships"
21:54:03	<darkling>	Then you can say each dimension has the distribution selected randomly (with some weighting).
21:54:08	<dminuoso>	geekosaur: I think its not a big downside. It becomes very hard to come up with a way where the lack of Eq will hinder you.
21:54:20	<dminuoso>	Since you can just add Eq anyway
21:54:28	<rustisafungus>	as i think about this, i am thinking that perhaps some kind of random graph might be the way to go?
21:54:55	<rustisafungus>	because i might want there to sometimes be independent dimensions, then some might have correlations between pairs, some triplets, and so on, and some a complex tangling of things
21:54:57	<darkling>	Similarly, do you want variables correlated pairwise? More variables correlated? Pick the number of correlations and the correlated variables randomly...
21:55:23	<darkling>	Then pick you rmodel for the correlation: is it exact? exact with errors?
21:55:47	<rustisafungus>	you make a good point to allow for exact relationships but
21:55:49	<geekosaur>	dminuoso, I didn't claim it was a big downside, and in fact ghc havoing removed it with little in the way of subsequent update demonstrates it
21:55:51	<geekosaur>	snot
21:55:58	<rustisafungus>	mostly i mean noisy relationships
21:56:11	<darkling>	Basically, first decide what kind of features you want to see, then work out how to generate things with those features.
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21:56:23	<geekosaur>	*it's not
21:56:35	<dminuoso>	geekosaur: Absolutely. Im just contemplating about the consequences.
21:56:52	<geekosaur>	s/update/upset/
21:57:04	<geekosaur>	hm, I kinda didn't get that out right 🙂
21:57:12	<dminuoso>	The only way this will ever hurt you, is if you are being given a Num as an existential as part of an interface.
21:57:45	<dminuoso>	Some kind of `f :: (exists e. Num e *> e -> a) -> a`
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21:58:15	<dminuoso>	And you would then have to use this with the intent of using Show or Eq.
21:58:17	<geekosaur>	someone (Bird?) complained about having to revise a Haskell book on short notice, I think
21:58:35	<dminuoso>	Oh heh. There's that side of things :)
21:58:49	<rustisafungus>	darkling: but,... is there a name for what i select and then how i generate the sample?
21:59:33	<darkling>	Not that I've ever met. When I've needed to do it, I just do it. :)
21:59:44	<rustisafungus>	darkling: oh, so you've done this before?
22:00:07	<darkling>	A few times.
22:00:42	<rustisafungus>	one thing i am puzzled by is that if i have a high dimensional distribution which i specify it might become difficult to sample from
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22:00:59	<rustisafungus>	so maybe it's better to create a tree and specify some variables which "cause" others...?
22:01:27	<rustisafungus>	so say, 100 out of the million variables are truly independent, and then i mix and match those plus random noise to make the other variables
22:01:56	<darkling>	Yeah, there's plenty of approaches you can take. It depends on what you want the data you generate to look like.
22:02:03	<rustisafungus>	is there a name for this process?
22:02:35	<darkling>	Like I said, I've not met a name for it. It's not entirely my core skill-set.
22:02:54	<rustisafungus>	ok
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22:05:11	<darkling>	I don't think there's a good way of just saying "make me an interesting and varied data set". You have to have a good idea of what properties you want it to have.
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22:09:26	<monochrom>	"Be the first one to rate it and give it a high-brow name!"
22:09:33	<rustisafungus>	haha
22:13:44	<jackdk>	"synthetic data"?
22:14:32	<rustisafungus>	jackdk: talking to me?
22:15:06	<jackdk>	nah, darkling . I think I've heard that term bandied about, but very far outside my skillset too
22:15:24	<monochrom>	But after you strip "I need a sample of a 100-dimension internally-dependent distribution" of the "it's oh so higher-dimensional and oh so internally-dependent" façade, it's just "I need 100 random numbers" and simply known as "probabilistic programming" or even more traditionally "randomized algorithms".
22:15:45	<rustisafungus>	right, so what i need is something like a "random probabilistic program"
22:16:08	<rustisafungus>	but it need not be "uniform" in any theoretical sense, just jumbled and varied
22:16:18	<monochrom>	Consult game programmers. They do that all the time.
22:17:05	<rustisafungus>	oh, ok,... and... ? what do they do?
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22:17:38	<monochrom>	Use PRNG to control NPC actions?
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22:18:11	<rustisafungus>	right but what i am asking for is more like that the NPCs need to have "random" interactions
22:18:22	<rustisafungus>	some are part of groups, others are independent, and soforth
22:18:29	<monochrom>	And the n+1st random number can depend on the previous n random numbers?
22:18:39	<rustisafungus>	that's one way to do it
22:18:44	<geekosaur>	that's gonna be less random numbers than a good range of interactions and how to suit them to player responses
22:19:13	<geekosaur>	which is more of an AI question than a random numbers question
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22:19:37	<rustisafungus>	i beg to differ, i consider it a "really practical statistics and computing" question
22:20:07	<rustisafungus>	for example someone might have written xgboost and wants to make "random" relationships between variables to test that xgboost can identify them with reasonable accuracy
22:20:13	<geekosaur>	what you consider it and what a player faced with your result consider it are likely to differ
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22:21:26	<monochrom>	Sure, for an NPC the n+1st random number depends on both the previous n random numbers and a large chunk of the rest of the current game state. Which strengthens my point because it proves that game programmers have already done something even more general and theoretically "harder".
22:21:34	<darkling>	I guess the procedural generation people probably have some ideas, but without knowing what you're actually intending to do with this output, it's very hard to go any further than "work out what properties you want the output to have", followed by "write something that has those properties"
22:21:52	<monochrom>	So now if you say you only depend on the previous n random numbers and nothing else, it's comparatively trivia.
22:21:54	<rustisafungus>	darkling: testing an xgboost implementation would be a great example of what i am doing
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22:22:08	<rustisafungus>	but that the data must be novel rather than part of an existing dataset
22:22:22	<monochrom>	It's why I made a stab at "be the first to give it a high-brow name".
22:22:32	<darkling>	I don't know what xgboost is.
22:22:41	<darkling>	(And it doesn't really matter that I don't)
22:23:08	<rustisafungus>	darkling: xgboost is the answer to 80% of prediction problems where a simple linear model is not enough
22:23:26	<rustisafungus>	it's actually really useful to know about :-)
22:23:44	<rustisafungus>	for example only recently did uber move away from xgboost for their ML modeling systems
22:23:53	<rustisafungus>	for important things like predicting arrival times etc
22:24:24	<ksu>	rustisafungus: whatever you do you are going to barely scratch the problem space, unless it is very symmetric
22:25:17	<ksu>	and to know what you should do if it is very symmetric you need to analyze its symmetries
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22:27:35	<darkling>	You need to get into specifics at this point rather than just talking about generalised multidimensional distributions.
22:29:22	<darkling>	Maybe once you've generated a few specific distributions modelling some behaviour you've seen (or, ab initio, have thought up), you can start thinking about the commonalities that you used to generate them. That might lead you to a framework or DSL to specify them to make it easier to generate things in the general case, but start with something conrete.
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22:32:05	<darkling>	Anyway, it's at least half-past bedtime. G'night.
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22:40:36	<rustisafungus>	ksu: care to elaborate?
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22:41:25	<rustisafungus>	i was thinking about generating "random" sat instances as a method of specifying a high dimensional distribution
22:41:40	<rustisafungus>	over binary variables in that case
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22:41:56	<rustisafungus>	i'm not quite sure how to sample from that however
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22:51:48	<rustisafungus>	so one question is, can i (at least some of the time) map a satisfiability problem onto a fairly efficient map from coin flip outcomes to a specific valid assignment (without rejetion sampling, mcmc etc)
22:55:22	<monochrom>	What if the satisfiability problem instance is unsatisfiable?
22:55:38	<rustisafungus>	then you cant sample from it
22:56:02	<rustisafungus>	invalid distribution because no assignment is satisfactory
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23:04:52	<rustisafungus>	hmm, page 13 here if anyone is curious https://simons.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/docs/4393/moshevardi.pdf
23:05:20	<rustisafungus>	this actually ought to overlap a lot with quickcheck
23:06:31	<rustisafungus>	https://github.com/meelgroup/unigen
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23:11:44	<gqplox>	hi guys
23:11:53	<rustisafungus>	hi gqplox
23:11:58	<shapr>	howdy
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23:12:13	<gqplox>	i did my first advent of code today
23:12:30	<shapr>	nice
23:12:32	<rustisafungus>	in C++?
23:12:42	<gqplox>	haha
23:12:44	<gqplox>	haskell :)
23:12:50	<rustisafungus>	oh
23:12:50	<gqplox>	http://sprunge.us/AM56z3
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23:13:00	<gqplox>	please let me know improvements i could make
23:13:42	<gqplox>	I think the groups there is a better way of doing it because filter is kind of a hack
23:14:23	<gqplox>	also I think there must be a better way to write the groupBy without using the lambda right?
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23:21:36	<EvanR>	what's the policy on AoC help on the same day the question is still happening
23:21:45	<EvanR>	spoiler channel?
23:23:47	<gqplox>	oh sorry!
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23:26:46	<geekosaur>	people have been helping out all day so I think it's a bit late for that
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23:28:06	<geekosaur>	usually after they've already solved it in whatever way, looking for improvements as here
23:28:07	<yushyin>	at least mark the link as a day01 spoiler next time?
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23:29:39	<sm>	we usually had a separate channel for advent solutions ?
23:30:27	<dsal>	#adventofcode-spoilers is a #haskell2
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23:30:55	<gqplox>	yyep sorry, I'll take care for next time
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23:32:08	<dsal>	I made a foldable monoidal type that could hold N items and just used a different type for part 1 and part 2 and used sum to go `Top n Int -> Int`
23:32:27	<monochrom>	IMO no worries in this case because just a few lines before the link it's already said this is someone's AoC solution.
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23:32:54	<dsal>	Theoretically, my parser does all the folding, but in practice, I'm using megaparsec which collects everything into a list before I can fold it.
23:33:01	<monochrom>	Instead, more people should learn: 1. Read the context; 2. Don't just click links.
23:33:20	<dsal>	I need to make variations of `sepBy` et. al. that let me bring my own monoid.
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23:35:25	<dsal>	My solution is way better than the above though because instead of `solve 1` I get to type `solve @1` with a ton of extensions.
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23:39:29	<gqplox>	so is there a cleaner way to write the lambda where I used the groupBy?
23:39:36	<gqplox>	I think there must be right?
23:41:13	<jackdk>	`const (/= "")`?
23:41:20	<dsal>	@pl \_ x -> x /= ""
23:41:20	<lambdabot>	const ([] /=)
23:41:25	<monochrom>	heh
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23:42:46	<dsal>	maybe `const (not . null)`
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23:44:27	<gqplox>	ah cool thank you
23:44:42	<gqplox>	do you have any general feedback?
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23:45:30	<gqplox>	@pl parse s = map (map read) (groups $ lines s)
23:45:30	<lambdabot>	parse = map (map read) . groups . lines
23:46:29	<dsal>	I was about to type something like that. Not sure it's better, but I'd probably have written that `parse = (fmap . fmap) read . groups . lines`
23:48:06	<gqplox>	nice, thank you
23:48:24	<dsal>	And `groups = fmap (filter (not . null)) . groupBy (const (not . null))`
23:49:20	<dsal>	that's slightly better to me, but that doesn't mean it's better in general.
23:49:41	<dsal>	I don't like unnecessary names (like `xs`) and I do like reading something like this as a pipeline from right to left.
23:50:49	→	ub joins (~Thunderbi@p200300ecdf264efbff642f477e75bc86.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
23:51:14	×	ubert quits (~Thunderbi@p200300ecdf264e704707c189dcb0868f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
23:51:14	ub	is now known as ubert
23:51:19	<dsal>	Similarly, I'd just say `parsed <- parse <$> readFile "01_input.txt"` so I'd have one fewer name / line of code that aren't essential.
23:51:31	<dsal>	Basically, I don't like code, so I try to get rid of it where I can.
23:51:48	×	chele quits (~chele@user/chele) (Remote host closed the connection)
23:52:24	<gqplox>	hahah fair point
23:52:41	<gqplox>	i did initially have not . null but i changed it back
23:52:49	<gqplox>	ah I don't know the <$> ill look that up
23:52:52	<dsal>	Yeah, I'd go either way on that.
23:53:09	<dsal>	<$> is fmap. You can't write any haskell code without.
23:53:14	<monochrom>	I like code, but I don't like names. Similar conclusion though.
23:54:49	<monochrom>	\_ () -> () /= ""
23:55:16	<dsal>	One thing I did in mine was just not keep that inner `[Int]` -- you don't ever need it. My parser sums it while reading.
23:55:18	<ChaiTRex>	In GHCi, `it` refers to the result of the last line. Is there a way to get the result of other previous lines?
23:55:25	<monochrom>	No.
23:56:22	<dsal>	The rule of thumb in GHCI is that if you want to do something that's not obvious, you probably shouldn't be in ghci. :)
23:56:48	<monochrom>	I have a better rule. Or worse? I have a tautology... >:)
23:57:12	<monochrom>	If you want to do something that ghci doesn't do, you shouldn't be in ghci >:)
23:57:26	→	freeside joins (~mengwong@103.252.202.193)
23:57:58	<monochrom>	A good rule though is: just don't expect ghci to be feature-rich.
23:58:37	<hpc>	another general rule, find the things your tools are good at, and try to only do those things
23:58:42	<monochrom>	We barely succeeded to convince the authors to add line editing.
23:59:07	<hpc>	for ghci, imo that's mainly just :r
23:59:12	<gqplox>	thank you guys for the help
23:59:27	<gqplox>	heading off now, bye
23:59:31	<monochrom>	Ugh that sounds dangerously close to "if you have a hammer, think of everything as only nails"
23:59:45	<hpc>	more like if you have a hammer, don't buy screws
23:59:53	<monochrom>	haha

All times are in UTC on 2022-12-01.