Logs on 2022-12-09 (liberachat/#haskell)
| 00:00:38 | <hpc> | also, often in programming the two are uncomfortably similar |
| 00:00:49 | <monochrom> | Did I tell you this plot line from a novel? 4 persons sworn to keep a secret; but one of them was evil and used the wording "I won't tell the 5th person". Later, at a conference of like 100 people, he told the secret. His defense: "Who is the 5th person?" |
| 00:00:54 | <hpc> | "do i move $0 to this register or xor it with itself" isn't something anyone wants to be aware of, but they do want fast code |
| 00:02:41 | <iqubic> | The next thing I'm confused by is why there's no lens function called "arrayOf" that constructs an Array from an IndexedTraversal like "toMapOf" |
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| 00:03:12 | <c_wraith> | It doesn't really add anything on top of composing with listarray |
| 00:03:36 | <jackdk> | I suspect it's also because you cannot guarantee that the traversal visits every index |
| 00:03:56 | <monochrom> | My understanding of human nature and Aesop fables is that I am confused that any function is written at all. |
| 00:04:15 | <hpc> | monochrom: the function was always there, waiting to be discovered |
| 00:04:40 | <monochrom> | Humans are supposed to be like "someone else should write that function" and end with a Mexican standoff impasse. |
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| 00:06:02 | <EvanR> | all functions are chiseled out of the master function that does everything |
| 00:06:39 | <iqubic> | What's the master function do? |
| 00:06:40 | <hpc> | EvanR: that's amusingly close to a real thing - https://dolphin-emu.org/blog/2017/07/30/ubershaders/ |
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| 00:08:31 | <hpc> | iqubic: if you're still indecisive after all this discussion, i say break the tie in your head with Vector and wait until your code annoys you to regret the decision |
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| 00:09:47 | <EvanR> | I found Vector of Vector of whatever to be easier to write than Array (Int,Int) because it wasn't symmetric |
| 00:10:06 | <EvanR> | I kept working with the transposed array all the time |
| 00:13:11 | <jackdk> | https://joearms.github.io/published/2013-11-21-My-favorite-erlang-program.html is the closest thing to a master function I've ever seen |
| 00:15:19 | <hpc> | that's pretty neat |
| 00:15:33 | <hpc> | and really does best exemplify erlang |
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| 00:16:47 | <hpc> | one of my favorite little tricks in haskell is a forkIO thread that does nothing but read from a Chan (IO ()) it closes over and run that action |
| 00:17:50 | <hpc> | great for when i don't feel like dealing with dependencies yet :D |
| 00:18:31 | <jackdk> | Oh that's fun |
| 00:18:31 | <c_wraith> | you can do fun stuff in ghci that way too, like working interactively with things that normally need some kind of transformer over IO |
| 00:19:07 | <c_wraith> | just start up the environment, then send actions to it |
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| 00:20:44 | <hpc> | jackdk: yeah - i have this not-really-a-joke that haskell is my favorite imperative language and perl is my favorite functional language |
| 00:20:49 | <hpc> | and first-class IO is why |
| 00:21:32 | <iqubic> | Why is perl a functional language? |
| 00:22:10 | <hpc> | perl's function calling conventions are extremely flexible |
| 00:22:31 | <hpc> | so like, a simple example with list flattening: |
| 00:22:42 | <hpc> | you have some function that does stuff, and it takes named parameters |
| 00:23:00 | <hpc> | so you can write foo(option1 => value1, option2 => value2) |
| 00:23:13 | <hpc> | but you almost always want option1 to be value3 |
| 00:23:39 | <hpc> | well, the function actually just takes a "list", which can be array-ish or hash-ish or some combination |
| 00:24:23 | <hpc> | so you can write sub bar { foo(option1 => value3, @_); } |
| 00:24:34 | <hpc> | and now if you call bar(option2 => value2), option1 is value3 |
| 00:24:47 | <hpc> | or you can call bar(option1 => value1, option2 => value2), and it's value1 instead |
| 00:25:14 | <hpc> | and of course, both foo and that defaults thing can be parameters |
| 00:25:40 | <hpc> | sub mkdefaults { my ($fun, $defaults) = @_; return sub { $fun->(%$defaults, @_); }; } |
| 00:26:13 | <hpc> | sub mkdefaults { my ($fun, @defaults) = @_; return sub { $fun->(@defaults, @_); }; } # er, meant to write this |
| 00:26:34 | <hpc> | so now you can write $bar = mkdefaults(\&foo, option1 => value3); |
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| 00:27:57 | <hpc> | and that's not to mention what you can do with regexes and block arguments |
| 00:28:29 | <hpc> | (regexes can call functions in perl) |
| 00:29:27 | <monochrom> | The Erlang universal server sounds dangerously close to unix inetd of the past and systemd socket activation today. :) |
| 00:30:38 | <hpc> | socket activation is more like lazy IO over a network imo |
| 00:31:00 | <hpc> | you "start" the server but don't actually run any code until something connects |
| 00:31:16 | <hpc> | like how a file handle ends up half-open with hGetContents |
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| 00:48:56 | <redmp> | Hello! I have a question about typeclasses: <https://termbin.com/b8z6> In this example, the C₁ instance can see the A instance, but the C₂ cannot. Why not? |
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| 00:55:55 | <jackdk> | There's probably a good reason like "an instance must directly mention all declared superclasses" but I don't know what it is. |
| 00:56:04 | <jackdk> | If you don't get an answer, maybe try the Discourse? |
| 00:59:59 | <EvanR> | hpc, I'm not sure I understand the role of the thread + Chan (IO ()) for the purposes of not dealing with dependencies |
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| 01:01:41 | <redmp> | jackdk: Here's a sentence from the 2010 report that seems to contradict the behavior in that snippet: |
| 01:01:44 | <redmp> | "The constraints expressed by the superclass context cx[(T u1 … uk)∕u] of C must be satisfied. In other words, T must be an instance of each of C’s superclasses and the contexts of all superclass instances must be implied by cx′. " |
| 01:02:05 | <monochrom> | Short answer: You are lacking an "instance A x where ...". |
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| 01:02:16 | <hpc> | EvanR: it's a janky way of getting 80% of https://hackage.haskell.org/package/async |
| 01:02:20 | <monochrom> | This is exactly the same as the following. |
| 01:02:43 | <redmp> | jackdk: https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/haskell2010/haskellch4.html#x10-770004.3.2 |
| 01:02:54 | <monochrom> | Because "class Eq a => Ord a", if you add "instance Ord Foo" then you also need to add "instance Eq Foo". |
| 01:03:03 | <monochrom> | Yes, because. |
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| 01:03:53 | <EvanR> | hpc, the only difference from just executing all the IO as is in all the threads is some kind of global serialization? |
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| 01:04:27 | <redmp> | monochrom: But C₂ has an instance of A under the assumption that it has an instance of B, which is stated in C₂'s instance context. |
| 01:05:02 | <monochrom> | That is a wrong interpretation. |
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| 01:05:58 | <hpc> | EvanR: it's just that it gets put in the background in a close-enough way to test an idea |
| 01:06:06 | <monochrom> | Instead, an author of "instance ... C2 Foo" has the obligation, not the assumption, to add "instance ... A Foo". As said. |
| 01:06:19 | <hpc> | the fact that it's still all sort of serial doesn't matter as much as my being able to carry on in the main thread |
| 01:06:29 | <monochrom> | This is also what the Haskell Report clause you quoted says. |
| 01:06:29 | <EvanR> | Oh I see, a cheap way to run a side action without spawning a thread |
| 01:06:34 | <hpc> | and it's like 4 lines of code |
| 01:06:34 | <EvanR> | with no way to get the result |
| 01:06:41 | <hpc> | yeah |
| 01:06:42 | <redmp> | monochrom: C₁ can use 'a' in its implementatino and doesn't add an instance of A anywhere because C₁ has B in its context. |
| 01:07:11 | <EvanR> | though wouldn't that be equivalent to... forkIO io |
| 01:07:21 | <redmp> | Ugh, this is difficult .. sorry, my last sentence is confusing b/c I didn't state when I'm talking about an instance or a class. |
| 01:07:24 | <EvanR> | writeChan ch io <=> forkIO io |
| 01:07:30 | <monochrom> | C1 is different from C2. |
| 01:07:42 | <EvanR> | except for the serialization |
| 01:07:43 | <geekosaur> | monochrom, I would question that because the context can't be discharged until a use site, not the instance declaration, no? |
| 01:07:55 | <monochrom> | C1 is simply "class C1" so it actually imposes fewer obligations on instance authors. |
| 01:08:40 | <monochrom> | OK, everything you say, use it to explain why "instance Ord Foo" is rejected until "instanace Eq Foo" exists. |
| 01:08:40 | <hpc> | EvanR: in the simplest case yeah, but it's also got a bit of flexibility in it |
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| 01:09:02 | <hpc> | maybe instead of Chan (IO ()) it's Chan (a -> IO ()) or something, and i have some useful other thing closed over |
| 01:09:11 | <hpc> | or instead of forkIO, it's forkOS and that's actually the opengl thread |
| 01:09:12 | <monochrom> | My simple theory explains it. Your theories don't. |
| 01:09:20 | <EvanR> | ah |
| 01:09:50 | <EvanR> | Chan (a -> IO ()) with something useful closed over, hey look, more globals |
| 01:09:55 | <EvanR> | OOP eat your heart out |
| 01:10:04 | <monochrom> | And damn right "class X => Y" is not "instance X => Y". In fact very opposite. |
| 01:10:15 | <hpc> | in the project i came up with that idiom in, it wasn't one thread |
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| 01:10:23 | <monochrom> | One could almost argue that one of those =>'s should have been <= |
| 01:10:24 | <redmp> | monochrom: have i hit a nerve? |
| 01:10:39 | <hpc> | i had a supervisor thread dynamically resizing a pool that all consumed from the same channel, for load testing |
| 01:11:13 | <EvanR> | enough stockholm syndrome has me reading class Eq a => Ord a where from right to left |
| 01:11:24 | <EvanR> | I know it says => but I think <= |
| 01:11:49 | <hpc> | heh, i just think of the base type classes and "know what it means" |
| 01:12:07 | <hpc> | and then get as confused as redmp when the names are reduced to A/B/C :P |
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| 01:14:48 | <monochrom> | In "instance B x => C1 x", the "B x =>" is used to check "c1 = a" only. |
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| 01:15:28 | <monochrom> | It is not used to help accept "you can make x an instance of C1" at all. |
| 01:15:44 | <monochrom> | And it does not help accept "you can make x an instance of C2" either. |
| 01:16:11 | <monochrom> | Those of us who survived the Functor-Applicative-Monad transition know it very well. |
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| 01:16:57 | <monochrom> | We had all kinds of "instance <possibly constraints => > Monad Foo" without any "instance Functor Foo" or "instance Applicative Foo". |
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| 01:17:28 | <monochrom> | Suddenly base added "class Functor => Applicative" and "class Applicative => Monad", we had to add those extra instances. |
| 01:17:47 | <monochrom> | IT DID NOT MATTER WHAT WE HAD IN <possibly constraints => > |
| 01:18:06 | <redmp> | it seems i hit a nerve |
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| 01:18:22 | <monochrom> | Sure. |
| 01:18:32 | <geekosaur> | are you, uh, paying attention? |
| 01:18:47 | <geekosaur> | or just whining about having hit a nerve? |
| 01:19:15 | <redmp> | i dunno, monochrom is the one using caps when all i did was ask a question and then seek clarification, once |
| 01:19:34 | <redmp> | Here's a quote from the 2010 report https://termbin.com/yo1n |
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| 01:20:38 | <monochrom> | Well I can stop. You won't get further information. |
| 01:20:44 | <redmp> | ??? |
| 01:20:59 | <monochrom> | I can complain "all I did was give an honest answer", too. |
| 01:21:33 | <EvanR> | what is the current topic / question |
| 01:22:15 | <redmp> | uh, i just found some behavior i didn't understand and i asked why it works like that |
| 01:22:29 | <monochrom> | And I answered why it works like that. |
| 01:22:50 | <monochrom> | It's also a very simple answer. |
| 01:23:37 | <redmp> | If I can paraphrase your answer, it seems like you said: The constraints mentioned by the class declaration have to be repeated by instance declarations, and there's no flexibility on that point. |
| 01:23:44 | <redmp> | Is that a correct understanding of your answer? |
| 01:23:53 | <monochrom> | No. |
| 01:24:24 | <EvanR> | constraints mentioned in the class declaration have to be satisfied somehow for your instances, one way or another |
| 01:25:13 | <monochrom> | The "satisfied" there is still ambiguous. |
| 01:25:30 | <monochrom> | "repeated by instance declarations" is also ambiguous. |
| 01:25:38 | <hpc> | "class A x => B x" means "to write an instance B x, you must also write an instance A x" |
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| 01:25:57 | <monochrom> | Both could be interpreted as "instance Eq Foo => Ord Foo" which is wrong. |
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| 01:26:07 | <monochrom> | Yes, see, what hpc said. |
| 01:26:24 | <hpc> | "instance A x => B x" means "this instance covers all x, but you can only use the instance in contexts where you have instance A x, whatever x is" |
| 01:27:00 | <hpc> | so say you wrote "instance A x => B x where b = whatever" |
| 01:27:13 | <hpc> | and now elsewhere in your code you write "example = b 100" |
| 01:27:31 | <hpc> | that will only typecheck if you have instance A Int |
| 01:29:02 | <hpc> | you generally don't want to write "instance A x => B x", for reasons that are hard to understand without a bunch of other type class knowledge |
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| 01:29:37 | <redmp> | So is this a difference of *when* the constraint is enforced? The class constraint is enforced where the instance is defined, but the instance constraint is enforced where the methods are used? |
| 01:29:41 | <hpc> | the docs for OverlappingInstances might be a good place to start for background on thata |
| 01:30:57 | <hpc> | redmp: that's probably a good working understanding of it, yeah |
| 01:31:28 | <redmp> | ok, thank you hpc and monochrom |
| 01:31:32 | <mrkun[m]> | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPGd5p_W_LM talks exactly about the original case, if you don't mind video |
| 01:31:42 | <hpc> | you'll find later that "enforced" is a fuzzy way of talking about how instances get resolved and such |
| 01:31:42 | <redmp> | i'll take a look |
| 01:31:47 | <EvanR> | you don't necessarily have to write an instance B x directly, it could provided by a more general instance, based on something else |
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| 01:33:57 | <EvanR> | er, I meant A |
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| 01:34:30 | <monochrom> | I don't think you can get more general than "instance A x" especially with "x" being a type variable. :) |
| 01:35:02 | <EvanR> | some instance declarations produce instances for a family of types at a time, based on more prereqs |
| 01:35:16 | <EvanR> | yeah for some reason I thought x was a metasyntactic variable here not literally a type variable |
| 01:37:12 | <hpc> | heh, yeah i hate when that sort of confusion happens to me |
| 01:37:21 | <hpc> | i try and always name my metasyntactic variables things like "expr" |
| 01:37:49 | <EvanR> | when teachers ask "what is x", they have no idea |
| 01:38:29 | <hpc> | one of my coworkers never properly learned what a graph was |
| 01:38:30 | <EvanR> | what they're getting into! |
| 01:38:42 | <hpc> | i drew a sine wave on his whiteboard and he said "i have no idea what that is" |
| 01:39:08 | <hpc> | it's funny how easily you get used to some things being common knowledge |
| 01:39:29 | <jean-paul[m]> | how ... what ... how do you get out of grade school without knowing what a graph is |
| 01:39:40 | <hpc> | but if i had to explain the difference between a variable and a metasyntactic variable, i don't think i could |
| 01:39:45 | <monochrom> | Selective amnesia. |
| 01:39:51 | <EvanR> | I thought graph was going to be something else |
| 01:40:22 | <EvanR> | something about dijkstra |
| 01:40:35 | <monochrom> | You know how after exams, students are like "now I can forget all this stuff". |
| 01:40:50 | <hpc> | jean-paul[m]: you'd be surprised how far you can go sometimes just by mushing notation together |
| 01:41:04 | <hpc> | (and admittedly also by how far you don't really have to go to graduate) |
| 01:41:22 | <hpc> | i got through a lot of physics work by ignoring reality and doing unit conversions |
| 01:41:50 | <hpc> | m**2 to m, multiply by 2/x, and such |
| 01:41:58 | <EvanR> | i got the impression that the basic levels at my high school were lessons in patience, just sit in the room for 4 years. And they will throw you a party at the end |
| 01:42:19 | <hpc> | (funny enough, this was before i learned calc) |
| 01:42:40 | <hpc> | sometimes the adapation to not learn something is more effective than learning it |
| 01:47:35 | <redmp> | quit |
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| 01:51:00 | <monochrom> | Cynically and radically extremistly, I am not convinced that any essay writing "in your own words to show you understand" is any more than mushing notation together. |
| 01:51:20 | <monochrom> | Or at least most essay writing. |
| 01:52:14 | <hpc> | there's a thing on that which i can't find now |
| 01:52:32 | <c_wraith> | "write a more convincing explanation of why you know something than the latest GPT model" |
| 01:52:34 | <hpc> | called "gaming the test" or something like that |
| 01:52:54 | <monochrom> | Ah yes people game the tests all the time. |
| 01:52:56 | <hpc> | where you aren't actually trained in class to know material, you're trained to satisfy the teacher's grading function |
| 01:53:22 | <hpc> | in a math class that might be "show your work confidently no matter how wrong you are" |
| 01:53:40 | <hpc> | in a literature class it might be "in the old man and the sea, joe dimaggio is jesus" |
| 01:54:16 | <monochrom> | My university has insane TOEFL score requirements for foreign students. The East Asian students we get are still very broken in very basic English grammar. |
| 01:54:17 | <hpc> | you don't have to believe it, you just have to write it, chinese room style |
| 01:54:52 | <monochrom> | Explanation: They got insane TOEFL scores by remembering insane long obscure words in the dictionary, not by figuring out English. |
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| 01:55:11 | <hpc> | ah, interesting |
| 01:55:34 | <hpc> | i guess it's like that old ms word feature that said "your document is at an 8th grade reading level" or whatever? |
| 01:56:03 | <hpc> | as long as you just keep using prepositions your score goes up and up |
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| 01:56:43 | <monochrom> | Wait, joe dimaggio is jesus??!! |
| 01:56:57 | <hpc> | monochrom: it's been decades and i am still bitter about that class |
| 01:57:01 | monochrom | didn't get that back then when reading the old man and the sea. |
| 01:57:14 | monochrom | didn't even remember the person's name, dammit |
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| 01:57:43 | <hpc> | i don't think the old man had a name |
| 01:57:50 | <hpc> | but he had a radio on the boat, and listened to baseball |
| 01:57:54 | <jackdk> | I recently a joke that GPT stood for "Guessing the Password of the Teacher" |
| 01:58:06 | <hpc> | jackdk: i think that's actually what it was called |
| 01:58:20 | <monochrom> | btw I read a Chinese translation. That might hurt, too. |
| 01:58:32 | <hpc> | https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/NMoLJuDJEms7Ku9XS/guessing-the-teacher-s-password |
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| 01:59:01 | <monochrom> | haha |
| 01:59:24 | <jackdk> | yeah it was a reference to that LW article |
| 01:59:48 | <hpc> | i mean, that's the thing i was forgetting the name of :D |
| 02:03:44 | <monochrom> | OK today I learn that wakalixes is a good password. >:) |
| 02:04:05 | <hpc> | ill remember it the next time i need to log into your email |
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| 03:00:02 | <EvanR> | stupid question, what is "unlifted" and or "to unlift" / "unlifting" something |
| 03:00:09 | <EvanR> | are they even related |
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| 03:19:10 | <monochrom> | Depends on context. |
| 03:19:55 | <monochrom> | But I think there is an "unlifted" library that's about bringing forkIO or bracket to StateT IO etc. |
| 03:21:51 | <jackdk> | Unless he's talking about unlifted data types? |
| 03:22:17 | <EvanR> | let the answer be in the list monad xD |
| 03:22:28 | <EvanR> | so far there's two possibilities |
| 03:24:35 | <ddellacosta> | weird I was just this second thinking about this https://www.fpcomplete.com/blog/2017/07/announcing-new-unliftio-library/ |
| 03:26:07 | <EvanR> | so in unliftIO, is it supposed to be the opposite of lifting (transformer jargon) ? |
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| 03:29:13 | <monochrom> | So I think it's called "unlift" because to have some kind of bracket for StateT IO, first you have to bring StateT IO down to IO level, because bracket requires that. |
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| 03:34:32 | <EvanR> | ah |
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| 04:03:19 | <jackdk> | yes, it's giving you the opposite to `liftIO :: MonadIO m => IO a -> m a`, which you need for all sorts of bracketesque functions |
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| 06:10:30 | <Guest3061> | hello, how haskell parse this expression (head . tail xs)? |
| 06:11:40 | <c_wraith> | prefix function application always binds more tightly than infix operators |
| 06:11:48 | <c_wraith> | so its (head . (tail xs)) |
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| 06:12:03 | <c_wraith> | which... looks like a type error |
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| 06:12:21 | <c_wraith> | You probably wanted something more like (head . tail) xs |
| 06:12:35 | <c_wraith> | though I'd rather use pattern matching for that. |
| 06:12:36 | <Guest3061> | why not ((head .) tail) xs |
| 06:13:04 | <c_wraith> | that's the same thing, but with more parens |
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| 06:14:07 | <c_wraith> | (head .) tail === (\x -> head . x) tail === (head . tail) |
| 06:15:18 | <Guest3061> | (head . (tail xs)) and (head . tail) xs not same |
| 06:15:32 | <c_wraith> | correct. |
| 06:15:40 | <xerox> | @src (.) |
| 06:15:40 | <lambdabot> | (f . g) x = f (g x) |
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| 06:19:52 | <Guest3061> | whats wrong: head . tail xs => (head .) tail xs where (head .) operator section; (head .) tail xs => (head . tail) xs = head (tail xs), but haskell error |
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| 06:21:37 | <c_wraith> | how are you getting that first transformation? |
| 06:21:56 | <iqubic> | :t head . tail xs |
| 06:21:57 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 06:21:57 | <lambdabot> | • Variable not in scope: xs :: [a0] |
| 06:21:57 | <lambdabot> | • Perhaps you meant one of these: |
| 06:22:07 | <c_wraith> | iqubic: nevermind that it's a type error |
| 06:22:13 | <iqubic> | :t \xs -> head . tail xs |
| 06:22:14 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 06:22:14 | <lambdabot> | • Couldn't match expected type ‘a1 -> [c]’ with actual type ‘[a]’ |
| 06:22:14 | <lambdabot> | • Possible cause: ‘tail’ is applied to too many arguments |
| 06:22:40 | <iqubic> | Yeah, that just doesn't compile in the first place. |
| 06:22:49 | <c_wraith> | Guest3061: you're changing the parsing rules by using a section. It changes it from an infix operator to a prefix function |
| 06:23:27 | <c_wraith> | (head .) tail xs is parsed as ((head .) tail) xs |
| 06:23:27 | <Guest3061> | ye section is funtction and have high priority |
| 06:23:48 | <c_wraith> | specifically, the tail and the xs aren't grouped together |
| 06:23:52 | <Guest3061> | why error |
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| 06:24:38 | <Guest3061> | ((head .) tail) xs is correct expression |
| 06:24:50 | <c_wraith> | so is (head . tail) xs, which is exactly identical |
| 06:24:57 | <c_wraith> | except with fewer parenthesis |
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| 06:26:08 | <c_wraith> | But when you change it to (head . tail xs), it's parsing as (head . (tail xs)) instead |
| 06:26:21 | <c_wraith> | which is a type error, because tail xs cannot be a function |
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| 06:26:43 | <iqubic> | Yeah. |
| 06:27:06 | <iqubic> | `head . tail xs` not equal `(head . tail) xs` |
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| 06:27:25 | <iqubic> | `head . tail xs` is actually `head . (tail xs)` |
| 06:28:13 | <Guest3061> | function is left associative |
| 06:28:17 | <Guest3061> | first function head |
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| 06:29:38 | <c_wraith> | associativity only matters when the precedence is the same. |
| 06:29:44 | <c_wraith> | Operators are always lower precedence. |
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| 06:30:40 | <c_wraith> | (than function application) |
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| 06:30:56 | <iqubic> | Function application is always done first, then you deal with operators. |
| 06:31:24 | <Guest3061> | we have two function in expression - head and tail, head is first |
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| 06:32:50 | <c_wraith> | iqubic: record update syntax has higher precedence than function application |
| 06:33:07 | <iqubic> | Alright, that's fair. |
| 06:34:13 | <iqubic> | In the situation we have `head . tail xs` we have both function application `tail xs` and evaluating an operator `.` Of these two things, GHC will always choose to do function application first |
| 06:34:25 | <c_wraith> | nice precision. :) |
| 06:36:00 | <Guest3061> | why (head .) is operator? |
| 06:36:25 | <mauke_> | it's not |
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| 06:36:46 | <iqubic> | (head .) isn't an operator. The only operator here is . which has two arguments `head` and `tail xs` |
| 06:36:58 | <iqubic> | (head .) isn't an operator. The only operator here is . which has two arguments `head` and `tail xs` |
| 06:37:13 | <mauke> | echo? |
| 06:37:32 | <iqubic> | Yeah. Sorry about that. My computer bugged out for a moment. |
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| 06:38:47 | <Guest3061> | f x f y f z ~ ((((f x) f) y) f) z correct? |
| 06:39:06 | <iqubic> | Now that is correct. |
| 06:39:32 | <iqubic> | Well, except for the last parthesis being in the wrong spot |
| 06:40:10 | <iqubic> | No actually, a few parentheses are wrong. |
| 06:40:55 | <mauke> | are they? |
| 06:41:03 | <Guest3061> | if x = . is function - arg it will not resemble our expression? |
| 06:41:30 | <mauke> | . is an operator, not a value |
| 06:41:50 | <mauke> | 2 + 2 does not mean ((2) +) 2, it means ((+) 2) 2 |
| 06:42:09 | <mauke> | heh |
| 06:42:12 | <iqubic> | Yes, that's correct mauke. |
| 06:42:20 | <mauke> | except (2 +) would be a section, so that would actually work |
| 06:42:27 | <mauke> | 2 + 2 does not mean (2 (+)) 2 |
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| 06:43:28 | <Guest3061> | but 2 not function |
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| 06:43:44 | <mauke> | it could be |
| 06:44:16 | <mauke> | this is about syntax, not types |
| 06:46:51 | <mauke> | @let instance (Num a) => Num ((->) e) where { (+) = liftA2 (+); (*) = liftA2 (*); abs = fmap abs; signum = fmap signum; fromInteger = pure . fromInteger; negate = fmap negate } |
| 06:46:52 | <lambdabot> | /sandbox/tmp/.L.hs:167:26: error: |
| 06:46:52 | <lambdabot> | • Expecting one more argument to ‘(->) e’ |
| 06:46:52 | <lambdabot> | Expected a type, but ‘(->) e’ has kind ‘* -> *’ |
| 06:47:01 | <mauke> | @let instance (Num a) => Num (e -> a) where { (+) = liftA2 (+); (*) = liftA2 (*); abs = fmap abs; signum = fmap signum; fromInteger = pure . fromInteger; negate = fmap negate } |
| 06:47:02 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
| 06:47:06 | <mauke> | > 2 + 2 |
| 06:47:08 | <lambdabot> | 4 |
| 06:47:17 | <mauke> | > 2 "hello" |
| 06:47:18 | <lambdabot> | 2 |
| 06:47:23 | <mauke> | there, now 2 is a function |
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| 06:48:50 | <mauke> | > (sqrt - 1) 2 |
| 06:48:51 | <lambdabot> | 0.41421356237309515 |
| 06:50:13 | <c_wraith> | > (sin ^ 2 + cos ^ 2) 17 |
| 06:50:15 | <lambdabot> | 0.9999999999999999 |
| 06:50:26 | <c_wraith> | oh no. the floating point error got me! |
| 06:50:29 | <mauke> | > 2 (3 4) |
| 06:50:30 | <lambdabot> | 2 |
| 06:50:35 | <mauke> | > (2 . 3) 4 |
| 06:50:37 | <lambdabot> | 2 |
| 06:50:39 | <mauke> | > 2 . 3 4 |
| 06:50:41 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 06:50:41 | <lambdabot> | • No instance for (Typeable a0) |
| 06:50:41 | <lambdabot> | arising from a use of ‘show_M75277755340628173127’ |
| 06:50:43 | <mauke> | there |
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| 06:51:49 | <iqubic> | I guess we scared them off. |
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| 06:52:54 | <mauke> | welcome back :-) |
| 06:54:34 | <Guest30> | head. tail [1,2,3] on what principle haskell choose 1st operation is tail [1, 2, 3] |
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| 06:56:00 | <Ybombinator> | How does the len function here https://bpa.st/6DRA work? Like how will it look after recursion? I only understood that it will return 0 after the last recursion and I assume the 1s are somehow added to it but it doesn't make sense to me how. |
| 06:56:07 | <mauke> | syntactically, it's like 2 + sqrt 3 |
| 06:56:30 | <mauke> | . and + are infix operators, tail and sqrt are values |
| 06:56:32 | <Guest30> | sqrt is function and have high priority |
| 06:56:49 | <mauke> | it's not sqrt itself that has priority |
| 06:57:09 | <mauke> | it's that when you put two values next to each other, that's function application and has high priority |
| 06:57:32 | <jackdk> | Ybombinator: you can use substitution to evaluate by hand: `len "hi" = len "i" + 1 = ((len "") + 1) + 1 = (0 + 1) + 1 = 2` |
| 06:57:42 | <mud> | Ybombinator: It says that the len of an empty list is 0 (len [] = 0) . Then it says that if the list has one element to pick off from them front, then it's 1 + the len of the rest |
| 06:58:17 | <Guest30> | why head . not function application? |
| 06:58:28 | <mauke> | because . is an operator, not a value |
| 06:58:30 | <mauke> | we've been over this |
| 06:58:32 | <Ybombinator> | oh right, the substitution makes it easy to understand |
| 06:59:13 | <mauke> | if you're asking what makes . an operator, it's that its name is made of punctuation symbols |
| 06:59:33 | <mauke> | unlike, say, tail, which is made of letters |
| 07:00:31 | <Guest30> | why do we look at this as an application head to . but not the other way around |
| 07:01:08 | <mauke> | because . is an operator, not a value |
| 07:02:51 | <c_wraith> | that's really the whole point of operators. They're infix, not prefix. |
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| 07:03:15 | <c_wraith> | It's why you get to write 2 + 2 instead of a lisp-like (+ 2 2) |
| 07:03:29 | <mauke> | syntactically, head . tail xs is no different from x + sqrt y |
| 07:03:32 | <Guest30> | why operator can`t be argument |
| 07:03:34 | <mauke> | the types really don't matter |
| 07:03:47 | <EvanR> | operator section like (+) and (.) can be an argument |
| 07:04:03 | <mauke> | you have to put ( ) around it to turn an operator into a value |
| 07:04:16 | <mauke> | otherwise it's an operator, not a value (we've been over this) |
| 07:04:23 | <EvanR> | naked operators are parsed different |
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| 07:07:45 | <Guest30> | thank you very much, I will remember that an operator cannot be an argument of a function |
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| 07:08:19 | <EvanR> | unless you parenthesize it |
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| 07:08:47 | <Guest30> | operator in parentheses is function |
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| 07:12:03 | <jackdk> | Ybombinator: In my personal experience (both in my own learning and when teaching), I have found that "go do the evaluation by hand and work through the substitutions" really helps make things click. Haskell is wonderful in that substitution is pretty much always possible |
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| 07:24:33 | <SrPx> | Is it possible to define an efficient hyper-operation sequence as a recursive squaring function over 2-adics in Haskell? |
| 07:24:37 | <SrPx> | https://stackoverflow.com/questions/74739974/is-it-possible-to-define-an-efficient-hyper-operation-sequence-as-a-recursive-sq |
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| 07:43:00 | <blomberg> | he |
| 07:43:16 | <blomberg> | are there default arguments values option for functions |
| 07:43:31 | <blomberg> | f x=2 y=4 = x+y |
| 07:43:50 | <iqubic> | Not in Haskell. |
| 07:44:11 | <iqubic> | Well, I mean, not easily |
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| 07:46:06 | <nilradical1> | hello, how can i get modules in `app/` to be available for import in the repl |
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| 07:46:44 | <nilradical1> | using cabal. under 'executable', ive added the module name to 'exposed modules' and also 'other modules' but in the repl its not available |
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| 07:50:50 | <blomberg> | iqubic:there are easily available using partial application f' = f 2 3 --so 2 3 are defaults :) |
| 07:51:38 | <blomberg> | but i don't want to apply f 2 3 to evaluating, so what's the syntax for partial application |
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| 07:58:04 | <dminuoso> | blomberg: We dont really have partial application. |
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| 07:58:25 | <dminuoso> | Or rather `f 2 3` is exactly that, but its not partial application either |
| 07:59:04 | <dminuoso> | The closest thing to default arguments that we commonly use, is by putting arguments inside a data structure |
| 07:59:06 | <dminuoso> | Say: |
| 07:59:30 | <dminuoso> | % import Data.Word |
| 07:59:30 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 07:59:44 | <dminuoso> | % data ServerOptions = ServerOptions { listenPort :: Word16, listenAddress :: Word32, serverName :: T.text } |
| 07:59:44 | <yahb2> | <interactive>:52:99: error: parse error on input ‘T.text’ |
| 07:59:48 | <dminuoso> | % data ServerOptions = ServerOptions { listenPort :: Word16, listenAddress :: Word32, serverName :: String } |
| 07:59:48 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 07:59:54 | <dminuoso> | And then defining some top level value |
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| 08:00:47 | <dminuoso> | % defaultOptions = defaultOptions { listenPort = 1234, listenAddress = 0x7F000001, serverName = "myServer" } |
| 08:00:48 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 08:01:17 | <dminuoso> | Such that the usage style becomes `startServer defaultOptions`, or if you want to customize some, you might write `startServer defaultOptions{ listenPort = 2345 }` |
| 08:01:29 | <blomberg> | > `(+) 2 3` |
| 08:01:31 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘`’ |
| 08:01:39 | <dminuoso> | Leave the backticks away |
| 08:01:45 | <dminuoso> | > (+) 2 3 |
| 08:01:46 | <lambdabot> | 5 |
| 08:02:06 | <blomberg> | quotes in the eval is another option |
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| 08:02:14 | <blomberg> | s/in/and |
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| 08:02:29 | <dminuoso> | You mean like (`f` 3) or (3 `f`)? |
| 08:03:14 | <dminuoso> | blomberg: I mean yes and no. They are partial applications if you consider `f :: Int -> Int -> Int` accepting two arguments. |
| 08:03:30 | <dminuoso> | THough there's also the notion that every function really accepts only one argument |
| 08:04:24 | <dminuoso> | And in that sense something like (`f` 3) is conceptually rather a short hand for `\x -> f x 3` |
| 08:04:31 | <dminuoso> | Or `flip f 3` if you want |
| 08:05:43 | <dminuoso> | blomberg: That being said, writing `f 2 3` to already pre-apply 2 and 3 is fine. Why do you not like it? |
| 08:06:16 | <dminuoso> | It might be helpful to understand, that the way this is implemented in GHC Haskell makes it extremely cheap. GHC doesnt create a new function upon partial application of somne kind. |
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| 08:18:20 | <albet70> | what's the better way to replace a bunch of if-then-else? |
| 08:18:37 | <dminuoso> | albet70: Difficult to say in general. Can you share the code you have specifically? |
| 08:19:21 | <albet70> | dminuoso , https://paste.tomsmeding.com/PMJK278w |
| 08:20:10 | <dminuoso> | albet70: can you share some of the surrounding code as well? perhaps the entirety of the binding here? |
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| 08:21:24 | <albet70> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/mf0me8hF |
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| 08:22:33 | <dminuoso> | You could use MultiWayIf (or an equivalent `case () of ...` expression) |
| 08:22:41 | <dminuoso> | Alternatively, you could use a helper binding that accomlishes the same in guards |
| 08:24:21 | <albet70> | yes |
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| 08:39:53 | <albet70> | dminuoso , this 'case ... of ..' is equal to 'switch .. case ...' in other languages like C or Java? |
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| 08:43:03 | <dminuoso> | Not quite |
| 08:43:12 | <dminuoso> | The construct in C is somewhat different |
| 08:43:23 | <dminuoso> | And in Java as well |
| 08:44:04 | <dminuoso> | If you think of the switch-case in C or Java combined with an implicit break; on each clause, then they are similar |
| 08:44:18 | <kjlid[m]> | Actually Java has switch expressions nowadays |
| 08:44:22 | <dminuoso> | But the fact that you can leave a break away in one clause lets you do things that case-of cant. |
| 08:45:21 | <kjlid[m]> | No break needed in those |
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| 08:46:16 | <int-e> | There's three such pairs I know of. `case ... of` (Algol, Pascal, Haskell) `switch ... case` (C, Java), `match ... with` (ML, Rust)... Oh, Fortran has another "select case ... case". Fun. |
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| 08:48:53 | <kjlid[m]> | How would you guys make a `[Maybe String] -> Either String [String]`? |
| 08:49:50 | <int-e> | kjlid[m]: Well, what is it supposed to do? |
| 08:49:59 | <dminuoso> | int-e: How is ml, rust `match ... with` different? |
| 08:50:24 | <dminuoso> | I mean they do have these combined patterns which is useful, is there anything else? |
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| 08:50:30 | <int-e> | dminuoso: I think they're surprisingly close because Rust has patterns. |
| 08:50:48 | <kjlid[m]> | I have a [Maybe String] and i want to accumulate those strings into a list, returning an error if one of them is Nothing |
| 08:50:59 | <dminuoso> | kjlid[m]: use `asum` |
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| 08:51:22 | <dminuoso> | kjlid[m]: Did you generate this list by means of using `fmap`? |
| 08:51:56 | <int-e> | > map sequence [[Just 1, Just 2],[Just 1,Nothing]] |
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| 08:51:58 | <lambdabot> | [Just [1,2],Nothing] |
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| 08:52:28 | <albet70> | I learned a liitle cpp a few days, it's too difficult than other languages, the pointer, the left/right value, too chaos, is rust difficult too? |
| 08:52:44 | <dminuoso> | Ah wait, asum is wrong. sequence it is. |
| 08:52:58 | <int-e> | (that doesn't add an error yet) |
| 08:53:01 | <dminuoso> | Anyway, if you have generated this list with `fmap`, and intend to `sequence` it after, consider using `traverse` instead. |
| 08:53:06 | <kjlid[m]> | mapM actually. The function i am using is actually `IO (Maybe String)` |
| 08:53:29 | <int-e> | :t maybe (Left "oh no") Right $ Nothing |
| 08:53:30 | <lambdabot> | Either [Char] b |
| 08:53:34 | <dminuoso> | kjlid[m]: Okay, if you have mtl already, you could go through MaybeT |
| 08:53:59 | <dminuoso> | If not, `sequence` the result and then use some kind of `note :: e -> Maybe a -> Either e a` function, manually case-of, use `fromMaybe/maybe` |
| 08:54:05 | <dminuoso> | Something along these lines |
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| 08:56:15 | <xerox> | > traverse sequence [[Just 1, Just 2],[Just 1,Just 4]] |
| 08:56:16 | <lambdabot> | Just [[1,2],[1,4]] |
| 08:56:58 | <kjlid[m]> | Do mtl have MaybeT? |
| 08:59:58 | <dminuoso> | kjlid[m]: Oh well transformers does. |
| 09:00:15 | <dminuoso> | Pardon me. Whenever I have one, I tend to have the other as well. :) |
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| 09:00:31 | <dminuoso> | Whcih is why in my mind I keep conflating them |
| 09:00:37 | <kjlid[m]> | Alright |
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| 09:09:37 | <blomberg> | > x=2 |
| 09:09:38 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:2: error: parse error on input ‘=’ |
| 09:09:43 | <blomberg> | why do i get error |
| 09:10:05 | <c_wraith> | because lambdabot isn't a file, or ghci |
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| 09:10:24 | <c_wraith> | lambdabot evaluates expressions, and x=2 isn't an expression |
| 09:10:33 | <c_wraith> | > let x=2 in x + 5 |
| 09:10:34 | <lambdabot> | 7 |
| 09:10:37 | <blomberg> | % x=3 |
| 09:10:37 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 09:10:42 | <blomberg> | % x |
| 09:10:42 | <yahb2> | 3 |
| 09:10:42 | <dminuoso> | Talk to yahb2 (start with %) if you want a GHCi interface that allows you to write `x = 2` |
| 09:10:48 | <dminuoso> | alternatively you can define in lambdabot as follows |
| 09:10:50 | <dminuoso> | @let x = 2 |
| 09:10:51 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
| 09:10:57 | <dminuoso> | > print x |
| 09:10:58 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 09:10:58 | <lambdabot> | Ambiguous occurrence ‘x’ |
| 09:10:58 | <lambdabot> | It could refer to |
| 09:11:10 | <c_wraith> | > L.x |
| 09:11:14 | <lambdabot> | 2 |
| 09:11:43 | <blomberg> | print is there in haskell |
| 09:11:48 | <c_wraith> | it's not usually a good idea to @let one-character identifiers |
| 09:11:58 | <c_wraith> | because lambdabot has simplereflect imported |
| 09:12:06 | <c_wraith> | > f y z :: Expr |
| 09:12:08 | <lambdabot> | f y z |
| 09:13:00 | <blomberg> | > add x y = x+y; add'=add 2 3 |
| 09:13:01 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:9: error: parse error on input ‘=’ |
| 09:13:04 | <int-e> | @undef |
| 09:13:04 | <lambdabot> | Undefined. |
| 09:13:12 | <int-e> | :t x |
| 09:13:13 | <lambdabot> | Expr |
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| 09:13:39 | <int-e> | > let add x y = x + y in add 2 3 |
| 09:13:40 | <lambdabot> | 5 |
| 09:13:43 | int-e | shrugs |
| 09:14:28 | <blomberg> | int-e:also i want add' = add 2 3 |
| 09:14:54 | <int-e> | > let add x y = x + y; add' = add 2 3 in add' |
| 09:14:56 | <lambdabot> | 5 |
| 09:15:45 | <blomberg> | we can put multi expressions in let multiexpression in singleexpression ? |
| 09:16:13 | <dminuoso> | What is a multi expression? |
| 09:16:17 | <int-e> | a single `let` can have any number of bindings |
| 09:17:06 | <int-e> | and if you know how layout turns into explicit blocks (delimited by { and }) and semicolons, you can put it all on one line. |
| 09:17:25 | <blomberg> | multi assignments |
| 09:18:11 | <c_wraith> | multiple declarations. |
| 09:18:59 | <c_wraith> | "assignment" carries with it some connotations of modification. You're just defining names to be the same as some other expression. |
| 09:19:42 | <int-e> | @quote no.variables |
| 09:19:42 | <lambdabot> | cjs says: I have to explain this shit to people. I mean, I start out right, "Hey, you know how you always have these bugs because what you thought was in the variable is not there?" And I get all of |
| 09:19:42 | <lambdabot> | these nods of agreement. "Well, I've found a new language that solves that problem." Audience: "Ooooh! How?" Me: "There's no variables!" And then they all start moving away from me slowly.... |
| 09:21:07 | <dminuoso> | Of if you dont like declaration, you could use `equation` |
| 09:21:41 | <dminuoso> | Which with a slight bit of squinting works well enough |
| 09:22:09 | <int-e> | > let xs = 1:ys; ys = 2:xs in xs |
| 09:22:10 | <lambdabot> | [1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2... |
| 09:22:35 | <int-e> | (the equations can be recursive) |
| 09:24:22 | <merijn> | int-e: I love that quote :) |
| 09:25:01 | <c_wraith> | it feels very.... Arlo Guthrie |
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| 09:27:44 | <blomberg> | putStrLn "x value is {x}" --so how do i print x value in that string |
| 09:27:59 | <merijn> | I should actually finally add my favourite XY problem quote |
| 09:28:10 | <merijn> | @remember glyph For example, if you came in here asking "how do I use a jackhammer" we might ask "why do you need to use a jackhammer". If the answer to the latter question is "to knock my grandmother's head off to let out the evil spirits that gave her cancer", then maybe the problem is actually unrelated to jackhammers |
| 09:28:11 | <lambdabot> | It is stored. |
| 09:28:36 | <merijn> | blomberg: Normally something like: putStrln ("x value is " ++ show x) |
| 09:28:58 | <merijn> | there are some libraries for format strings, but most of the time I don't find them worth the effort |
| 09:29:21 | <blomberg> | show is function from Show typeclass |
| 09:29:30 | <dminuoso> | Im not sure, templated strings its something I regularly miss in Haskell. :/ |
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| 09:29:49 | <dminuoso> | People not missing it are probably just suffering from Stockholm syndrome |
| 09:30:03 | <c_wraith> | I just don't format much text. |
| 09:30:51 | <merijn> | blomberg: You can replace show with whatever custom formatting text |
| 09:31:06 | <int-e> | There's always <rot13>Grkg.Cevags</rot13> :-P |
| 09:31:23 | <merijn> | c_wraith: I occasionally do, but mconcat plus a list of strings/show expressions works easiest |
| 09:31:35 | <c_wraith> | also, when I do format text, I'm usually writing showsPrec, and Prelude has a bunch of secret tools for writing showsPrec cleanly |
| 09:31:54 | <int-e> | (Text.Printf. It's such an ugly hack, but it's a useful middle ground between `show` and proper pretty-printing.) |
| 09:32:15 | <merijn> | dminuoso: Usually when I do format things there's more custom formatting around and then the list based approach works fairly well |
| 09:32:43 | <c_wraith> | I *do* wish -XOverloadedList was designed better. |
| 09:32:46 | <dminuoso> | merijn: Re jackhammer. Is it unrelated though? XY problems may not necessarily be a problem, it might be worthwhile explaining how to use a jackhammer, to let them figure out why the goal might be unwise, or perhaps they truly need to perform an excorcism. |
| 09:33:18 | <c_wraith> | toList/fromList are the wrong level of abstraction for making OverloadedLists useful |
| 09:33:42 | <merijn> | dminuoso: I usually end up writing this approach: https://github.com/merijn/Belewitte/blob/master/benchmark-analysis/model-src/Evaluate.hs#L402-L409 |
| 09:33:43 | <c_wraith> | I want to be able to use heterogenous element types! |
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| 09:34:22 | <dminuoso> | c_wraith: How do you envision this to work? |
| 09:34:29 | <merijn> | dminuoso: GADTs :p |
| 09:34:43 | <dminuoso> | As in magically sprinkle GADTs over modules to make it compile? |
| 09:35:04 | <int-e> | dminuoso: XY problems are problems because they often leave noone happy... neither the person who asked the question but got an answer that wouldn't help them, nor the person who answered but didn't get the satisfaction of actually helping. |
| 09:35:08 | <c_wraith> | no. desugar to overloaded applications of cons and nil |
| 09:35:18 | <c_wraith> | and *then* resolve the overloading. |
| 09:35:29 | <int-e> | dminuoso: But of course there are exceptions on both sides. |
| 09:35:39 | <dminuoso> | What *might* be fun is if GHC had pre-knowledge of all instances present, you get an existential type with `(Show, Read) *> ...` assuming that `Show, Read` is the common set of instances shared by all elements |
| 09:36:50 | <dminuoso> | So something like `["foo", 6]` is fine, but you could only use it in any way that either ignores the contained type, or uses something that us uniformly supported |
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| 09:39:46 | <c_wraith> | that's way more complicated than what I want |
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| 09:44:41 | <dminuoso> | c_wraith: How would you overload cons and nil? With a type of `class Consy t where cons :: a -> t a -> t a; nil :: t a; uncons :: t a -> (a, t a)` |
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| 09:45:03 | <dminuoso> | Or did you mean something else? |
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| 09:45:59 | <c_wraith> | something along those lines. I've worked it out before, but I didn't bother memorizing it. |
| 09:46:59 | <dminuoso> | c_wraith: It might be particularly interesting if this desugared nicely in pattern matches as well, such that `f (x:xs) = ..` would desugar into `f p = case uncons p of (x, xs) -> ...` |
| 09:47:13 | <dminuoso> | Now that could be quite comfortable in a few situations |
| 09:48:05 | <dminuoso> | Because one of the nice things about String is that it lets you comfortably write recursion on its content, but with this you could write it just as easily on text as well. |
| 09:48:07 | <c_wraith> | yeah, it'd have to work out that way somehow |
| 09:51:16 | <dminuoso> | That latter part should be easy enough to retrofit into the existing extension at least |
| 09:52:03 | <dminuoso> | What surprises me a bit however is that IsList has a toList method |
| 09:52:23 | <dminuoso> | That seems like it could rule out some potential instances |
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| 11:12:54 | <EvanR> | dminuoso, what comes from List goes to List it's List. it's List |
| 11:13:52 | <dminuoso> | EvanR: Sure, its just strange in that it's tighter than IsString, which can only ever go from a string but not back again |
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| 11:20:03 | <Hecate> | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCfD7aIl-_E |
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| 12:40:22 | <Guillaum[m]> | From the documentation, the "mask" status of `mask $ \restore -> ` is inherited in child threads (created with forkIO, or Async.async.) However, it is unclear if we can use `restore` a the child thread. The documentation of `forkIOWithUnmask` let us think that we cannot. |
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| 12:42:59 | <Guillaum[m]> | Actually, the documentation of forkFinally suggest that it is possible to use restore in the child thread, see https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.17.0.0/docs/Control-Concurrent.html#v:forkFinally, but in this case, what is the point of forkIOWithUnmask? |
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| 12:45:46 | <Guillaum[m]> | Haa, I got it, reading https://www.fpcomplete.com/blog/2018/04/async-exception-handling-haskell/, the difference is subtle. One "restores" the previous state, when the other fully remove the masking state. |
| 12:45:47 | <Guillaum[m]> | Thank you ;) |
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| 12:57:17 | <chreekat> | :D |
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| 13:13:08 | <merijn> | Guillaum[m]: Also, lemme recommend Simon Marlow's Parallel & Concurrent Haskell book that goes into excruciating detail on this ;) |
| 13:14:39 | <Guillaum[m]> | merijn: thank you. Actually, I'm sure I read that one years ago, but concurrent programming is difficult AND I tend to forget about things when not used daily ;) |
| 13:18:02 | <maerwald[m]> | It's easy to remember: don't trust haskell exceptions |
| 13:18:29 | <merijn> | tbf, don't trust async exceptions in any language :p |
| 13:18:35 | <merijn> | but a lot of languages don't have them |
| 13:18:59 | <dminuoso> | Is there some idiom to tacking callstack information onto IO exception? |
| 13:19:16 | <Guillaum[m]> | Well, C/C++ have signals, which is roughly the same in worse because it can corrupt your memory. |
| 13:19:33 | <[exa]> | "have" signals |
| 13:19:40 | <dminuoso> | Right now Im just annotating HasCallStack with my own exception hierarchy that all include CallStack in them, but that's fairly cumbersome |
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| 13:20:41 | <dminuoso> | maerwald[m]: any progress on that silly ghcup bug? |
| 13:20:52 | <merijn> | Guillaum[m]: Yes, there's 2 kinds of people |
| 13:21:06 | <merijn> | Guillaum[m]: People who think they can write signal handling code and people who don't lie to themselves :p |
| 13:21:13 | <dminuoso> | Ahh it was indeed a bad header offset. |
| 13:21:24 | <dminuoso> | Good catch |
| 13:22:29 | <dminuoso> | What strikes me as strangely odd, is how d_name appears to have contained sensible results. |
| 13:22:48 | <dminuoso> | Shouldnt d_name have had a bad offsset as well? |
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| 13:30:11 | <maerwald[m]> | dminuoso: yes |
| 13:30:31 | <maerwald[m]> | https://github.com/haskell/ghcup-hs/issues/415#issuecomment-1344184716 |
| 13:30:31 | <maerwald[m]> | What exactly messes with the defines is still not clear |
| 13:31:19 | <maerwald[m]> | The other ccall is from unix package, which happens to include the right headers |
| 13:31:32 | <maerwald[m]> | Still something is wrong |
| 13:31:45 | <maerwald[m]> | You shouldn't need to add defines for system headers to be correct |
| 13:32:05 | <maerwald[m]> | So I think something is messing with macros |
| 13:32:16 | <dminuoso> | maerwald[m]: But seriously, why did the d_name field contain the expected data? |
| 13:32:28 | <dminuoso> | I dont quite get that part. |
| 13:32:43 | <dminuoso> | Or was d_name just accidentally aligned correctly? |
| 13:33:01 | <maerwald[m]> | dminuoso: the function that uses d_type is defined in GHCup. The function that uses d_name in unix |
| 13:33:10 | <dminuoso> | Ohhhh |
| 13:33:21 | <maerwald[m]> | They have different includes |
| 13:33:30 | <dminuoso> | I hate C with a passion. |
| 13:33:34 | <maerwald[m]> | But that still doesn't make sense |
| 13:34:10 | <maerwald[m]> | If you write a minimal main.c, all the d_type stuff is correct |
| 13:34:10 | <maerwald[m]> | So something makes it incorrect in Haskell |
| 13:34:36 | <maerwald[m]> | And then ghcconfig.h makes it correct again |
| 13:34:42 | <dminuoso> | maerwald[m]: Could be fixincludes perhaps? |
| 13:35:26 | <dminuoso> | If it is, you will have an incredibly hard time figuring it out. :p |
| 13:36:01 | <dminuoso> | Or some other header that gets accidentally tossed in disables that macro |
| 13:36:21 | <maerwald[m]> | But now I worry... including HsFFI.h fixes it, but what other side effects may it have |
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| 13:38:07 | <maerwald[m]> | Anyway, that's just more of a reason to merge https://github.com/haskell/unix/pull/251 |
| 13:40:05 | <maerwald[m]> | GHC will probably not care, because they stopped supporting armv7 |
| 13:41:20 | <merijn> | maerwald[m]: unsupported platforms is just "it is someone else's problem to contribute fixes", so they will care, just not invest any effort into fixing |
| 13:41:40 | <merijn> | Assuming said fixes don't break everything else, ofc :p |
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| 13:43:14 | <maerwald[m]> | merijn: they don't have arm runners anymore I think |
| 13:44:06 | <maerwald[m]> | https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/pipelines/60010 |
| 13:46:23 | <chreekat> | yeah, no more armv7 runners, since the servers were taken away. armv7 was and continues to be a "Tier 2 platform", meaning whether GHC works for it depends on community support. In other words, nobody is paid to keep them working |
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| 13:47:53 | <maerwald[m]> | Probably not good for adoption though |
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| 13:56:32 | <merijn> | Sure, but someone has to foot the bill for these things |
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| 14:01:35 | <maerwald> | merijn: HF? |
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| 14:02:42 | <chreekat> | meanwhile, ghc also doesn't work great on aarch64/macOS Ventura, and that is considered highest priority and ppl are paid to work on it :) https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/22497 |
| 14:03:02 | <merijn> | maerwald: Sure, but that's up to HF then, not GHC HQ. Can't blame GHC HQ for dropping niche architectures no one is paying to maintain |
| 14:03:27 | <maerwald> | merijn: did they source community opinions before dropping? |
| 14:03:43 | <maerwald> | like, a call for help? |
| 14:05:30 | <albet70> | except callCC, is there way to do early exit? |
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| 14:10:49 | <dminuoso> | You can use IO exceptions, MaybeT, EitherT |
| 14:11:06 | <dminuoso> | (Err called ExceptT actually) |
| 14:11:35 | <dminuoso> | And you can also wrap entire monadic expressions in `when` ... |
| 14:11:42 | <dminuoso> | Or you branch off in a guard early in a binding |
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| 14:16:14 | <albet70> | dminuoso , this is the actual code https://paste.tomsmeding.com/FZoU3vqb |
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| 14:18:54 | <dminuoso> | albet70: Given the context, do you consider an "empty" file an error? |
| 14:19:22 | <albet70> | in that 'traverse' , if-then-else branch, I can set 'return Left x' or 'return Right x' then the whole 'traverse' will return ActionM [Either a b], to check that Left Right decide to run the lase line 'redirect' or 'return ()' |
| 14:19:33 | <dminuoso> | Either way, scotty which I presume you are using, has a bunch of exceptions to short circuit the entire handler |
| 14:19:36 | <dminuoso> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/scotty-0.12.1/docs/Web-Scotty.html#g:7 |
| 14:20:16 | <dminuoso> | Do you want to abort the entire handler, or just skip the file? |
| 14:20:23 | <dminuoso> | Or whats the intention? |
| 14:21:15 | <albet70> | 'finish' seems right |
| 14:21:27 | <albet70> | entire handler |
| 14:21:41 | <dminuoso> | Consider using `raiseStatus` even |
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| 14:23:27 | <albet70> | how about turn it into ContT () ActionM a, then inside callCC to short circuit? |
| 14:23:53 | <dminuoso> | You can do that as well. |
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| 14:24:17 | <dminuoso> | It seems unnecessarily complex, given that you have `raiseStatus` at your disposal, but its your choice. |
| 14:24:32 | <maerwald> | pleasn don't use ContT |
| 14:24:40 | <dminuoso> | Hey its their sanity. |
| 14:24:45 | <albet70> | I don't want to refresh the front page |
| 14:24:57 | <dminuoso> | Mental wards need patients too, or they lose income |
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| 14:25:21 | <maerwald> | that should be in the haddock of ContT |
| 14:25:25 | <dminuoso> | I do not know what raiseStatus has to do with "refreshing the front page" (whatever that means for you) |
| 14:26:33 | <albet70> | Throw an exception, which can be caught with rescue. Uncaught exceptions turn into HTTP responses corresponding to the given status. |
| 14:26:47 | <albet70> | that http responses is not what I want |
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| 14:29:51 | <geekosaur> | isn't it going to have to produce some HTTP response? |
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| 14:35:59 | <albet70> | it seems likely |
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| 14:37:58 | <albet70> | wait a sec, maybe there is no need to create ContT to short circuit, 'traverse' do early exit already |
| 14:39:02 | <albet70> | oh, traverse can not exit whole function, ignore the privious msg |
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| 17:55:19 | <bazoo> | geekosaur EvanR: I kept trying making a bounded int type and after digging for a couple hours in the base codebase I came up with the following, Am I on a good track? data Range :: Nat -> Nat -> Type where R :: (KnownNat x, min <= x, x <= max) => Proxy x -> Range min max |
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| 17:59:40 | <c_wraith> | I think that's basically as good as possible in GHC as it stands, but I don't think it's going to be pleasant to use. |
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| 18:00:34 | <bazoo> | Indeed, as I'm not even sure how could I construct values of such type |
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| 18:02:37 | <c_wraith> | Oh, that Proxy in a negative position is unnecessarily limiting. You could instead use proxy x -> Range min max |
| 18:03:28 | <c_wraith> | the higher-kinded type variable is a fun trick when doing type-level stuff. |
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| 18:04:56 | <c_wraith> | but regardless of that. You could construct a value of that type with something like foo :: Range 0 10 ; foo = R (Proxy :: Proxy 5) |
| 18:05:50 | <c_wraith> | But that doesn't change how awkward it is to work with :) |
| 18:07:29 | <bazoo> | True, I was hoping to be able to do something like foo :: Range 0 10 ; foo = R 5, but I'm not able to unify x with 5 |
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| 18:11:04 | <c_wraith> | Yeah, this is the sort of thing that Haskell tools just aren't good at. Even with the extensions GHC provides. |
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| 18:13:30 | <bazoo> | I think the time has come for me to start looking at idris |
| 18:13:35 | <stefan-_> | I got a question regarding aoc and parsec |
| 18:13:40 | <stefan-_> | for this: https://gist.github.com/dozed/7f0ea0ec4ac6191b4b978012fcf21923 |
| 18:14:01 | <stefan-_> | I get: Left (line 5, column 1): unexpected "1" expecting " " |
| 18:14:22 | <stefan-_> | basically the question is how to switch from one parsing mode (with many1) to another mode |
| 18:17:57 | <stefan-_> | s/many1/sepBy1/ |
| 18:18:52 | <dminuoso> | All the parsec questions come up in December. Always. |
| 18:19:14 | <dminuoso> | It's like a universal constant that should be included in the Feynman Lectures on Physics |
| 18:19:31 | <stefan-_> | :) |
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| 18:33:30 | <mauke> | stefan-_: the problem is that string " " commits to succeeding by consuming at least one character of input |
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| 18:36:47 | <mauke> | stefan-_: as a rule of thumb, all string s should be try (string s) instead |
| 18:36:57 | <carter> | hows everyone? |
| 18:37:26 | <mauke> | actually, I'm not sure if that's enough |
| 18:37:54 | <stefan-_> | mauke, this didnt help, gives the same error |
| 18:38:18 | <stefan-_> | I thought about wrapping the two input parts in a sum type and parse with <|> |
| 18:38:24 | <stefan-_> | but this seems overly complicated |
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| 18:40:36 | <mauke> | it should give a slightly different error, I think |
| 18:40:52 | <mauke> | stefan-_: anyway, I think the sepBy1 in the main parser should be endBy1 instead |
| 18:41:01 | <mauke> | (and one of the other endOfLine's removed) |
| 18:41:52 | <mauke> | because in the current code, it sees the '\n' and goes "hey, that's a separator! better parse another occurrence of itemsParser" |
| 18:41:59 | <mauke> | which then fails |
| 18:42:01 | <dminuoso> | Well even with `try (string " ")` you have the problem that no branch available here can succeed. |
| 18:42:08 | <dminuoso> | So parsec will just report on the first branch |
| 18:43:00 | <dminuoso> | Yup, in connection with what mauke said |
| 18:43:20 | <dminuoso> | Honestly this is a type of input I would not use megaparsec to parse with. |
| 18:43:24 | <dminuoso> | *parsec |
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| 18:44:25 | <dminuoso> | Or at the very least not with backtracking here. Lookahead and brach is more suitable |
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| 18:44:38 | <dminuoso> | Rather than just this <|> randomly stabbing and hopnig it does what you want |
| 18:45:08 | <stefan-_> | try (string " ") together with endBy1 consumes at least the first part |
| 18:45:18 | <stefan-_> | `many1 anyChar` then consumes the rest |
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| 18:45:44 | <mauke> | here's my parser: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/tLizvfWG |
| 18:45:57 | <mauke> | it doesn't use parsec, but it should be pretty obvious anyway, I hope |
| 18:46:18 | <dminuoso> | I should conjure up a fancy flatparser example for this |
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| 18:46:51 | <dminuoso> | Is this the input for Day 9 part 2? |
| 18:47:00 | <mauke> | this is day 5 |
| 18:48:43 | <mauke> | btw, I love the Applicative interface for parsing |
| 18:49:14 | <mauke> | <* is just so nice to have |
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| 19:03:36 | <stefan-_> | mauke, this does it: https://gist.github.com/dozed/2bd3f4321c012727f9587d59450d098c |
| 19:04:37 | <stefan-_> | although I wonder why endBy1 works, but not sepBy1 followed by endOfLine |
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| 19:05:11 | <mauke> | because endBy1 treats the newline as part of one element (or one iteration of the inner parser) |
| 19:05:41 | <mauke> | if the parser at the beginning of the next iteration fails, endBy1 is fine with it and returns what it managed to collect before |
| 19:06:06 | <mauke> | on the other hand, sepBy1 treats the separator as a reliable indicator that another element will follow |
| 19:06:23 | <mauke> | so if it sees a "\n", it insists on parsing another items line |
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| 19:08:45 | <mauke> | basically, there is this branching structure: (sep >> items >> ...) <|> (endOfLine >> ...) |
| 19:09:09 | <mauke> | (the first ... loops back to sepBy1; the second ... is the code block that follows with moveSpecParser) |
| 19:09:29 | <mauke> | since sep = endOfLine in your code, there is an ambiguity here |
| 19:09:42 | <mauke> | and it cannot be resolved just by looking at the next char |
| 19:10:08 | <mauke> | uh, I should be more explicit about stuff |
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| 19:11:12 | <mauke> | consider the following code: do { items <- sepBy1 itemsParser endOfLine; endOfLine; many1 anyChar } |
| 19:12:24 | <mauke> | after parsing the first occurrence of itemsParser, sepBy1 has to make a choice: either stop and return the list of results so far, or try for another iteration of the inner parser |
| 19:12:54 | <mauke> | well, the way sepBy1 makes this choice is by seeing whether the separator parser succeeds, which is endOfLine in thie code |
| 19:14:20 | <mauke> | since there is a '\n' in the input at that point, the separator check succeeds |
| 19:14:35 | <stefan-_> | ok, so sepBy1 is implemented with `many (sep >> p)`, which fails if p does not succeed |
| 19:14:39 | <mauke> | sepBy1 p sep = do { x <- p; xs <- many (sep >> p); return (x : xs) } |
| 19:14:54 | <mauke> | the only way out of this is to make sep fail without consuming any input |
| 19:14:56 | <stefan-_> | and there is no `try` to mitigate this |
| 19:15:00 | <mauke> | right |
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| 19:15:26 | <mauke> | you would need a 'try' around the whole (sep >> p) construct, which you can't insert without writing your own version of sepBy1 |
| 19:15:37 | <stefan-_> | yep, makes sense |
| 19:15:43 | <stefan-_> | thanks for the explanation :) |
| 19:15:53 | <mauke> | you're welcome :-) |
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| 19:16:45 | <mauke> | also, your move parser is incomplete because it doesn't accept multi-digit numbers |
| 19:17:18 | <mauke> | "move 22 from 3 to 4", etc |
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| 19:19:02 | <stefan-_> | mauke, good point, `many1` should do it |
| 19:20:55 | <EvanR> | wow my day 9 code reduced like hell |
| 19:21:51 | <mauke> | reduce - reuse - ecyce |
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| 19:31:12 | <dminuoso> | https://gist.github.com/dminuoso/3f8272c66fed64349f28c171deafdefa |
| 19:31:21 | <dminuoso> | This is how I would write a parser for those crates probably? |
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| 19:31:56 | <dminuoso> | I think its much easier to think in terms of branching than to control backtracking and rely on <|> |
| 19:32:39 | <dminuoso> | (But take note, that something like lookahead is absurdly cheap in flatparse, so I dont know about parsec) |
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| 19:33:49 | <EvanR> | unsolicited report I used pattern matching to turn [c] into Just c and " " into Nothing, then transpose, catMaybes |
| 19:34:36 | <dminuoso> | I gotta golf this out with maximum performance and minimum memory wastage. |
| 19:34:47 | <EvanR> | performance golf lol |
| 19:35:04 | <mauke> | dminuoso: what is FP.empty? |
| 19:35:16 | <dminuoso> | mauke: Its a failure you can backtrack on |
| 19:35:27 | <dminuoso> | (or rather a failure that will trigger backtrack) |
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| 19:35:49 | <mauke> | not really needed here |
| 19:36:09 | <dminuoso> | It certainly is not, I could just connect the loop here. |
| 19:36:42 | <mauke> | why is FP.char a macro? |
| 19:36:53 | <dminuoso> | Heh yeah funny story here. |
| 19:37:02 | <dminuoso> | Long story is, string is a macro for good reason |
| 19:37:22 | <dminuoso> | And char is a macro because depending on what codepoint you have, we end up generating different code |
| 19:37:39 | <dminuoso> | if its a 1-octet we just peek a singular word off |
| 19:38:11 | <mauke> | I see |
| 19:39:19 | <dminuoso> | And similarly `string` will construct a correct sequence of reading word64, and then word8s... |
| 19:39:38 | <dminuoso> | So read in register sized chunks as much as possible |
| 19:40:07 | <dminuoso> | there's also `switch` with a funny quasi quoter that will let you write a case-of, but compile into a trie based lookup |
| 19:40:41 | <dminuoso> | so you write $(switch [| case _ of "foo" -> ...; "bar" -> ...; "quux" -> ... |] ) |
| 19:40:50 | <dminuoso> | And it will do the maximally efficient thing |
| 19:41:11 | <dminuoso> | (And if there's shared prefixes, due to the trie representation, it will save unnecessary duplication) |
| 19:41:30 | <dminuoso> | its pretty cool |
| 19:41:53 | <mauke> | you could still do that at runtime, right? |
| 19:42:25 | <mauke> | hmm |
| 19:43:04 | <mauke> | I suppose you'd need an associated "accept" set (or char?) for each subparser |
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| 19:48:58 | <stefan-_> | for the record, here the full solution for day5 part1: https://gist.github.com/dozed/798712c7d1fe4a2a591c9e3d6b7c3586 |
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| 19:57:33 | <huskle> | argh god, its friday here and its absolute carnage outside - is there any peaceful sort of haskell stuff that i could use to take my mind of all of this terrifying society |
| 19:57:55 | <monochrom> | What carnage? What outside? |
| 19:58:06 | <darkling> | There's an outside? I don't understand. |
| 19:58:09 | <huskle> | oh, your on-silico too? |
| 19:58:10 | <monochrom> | Are people hoarding toilet papers again? |
| 19:58:28 | <EvanR> | dminuoso, I really like how haskell has options for distilling performance through more or less outlandish machinations |
| 19:58:38 | <huskle> | what!? carrying bundles of rolls or something? |
| 19:58:43 | <EvanR> | I really really like the other options xD |
| 19:59:23 | <huskle> | nono, i meant to take my mind off of all of the terribleness, not be encouraged to explain it! |
| 19:59:31 | <EvanR> | please don't explain it |
| 19:59:32 | <huskle> | isnt there some great new haskell to be getting on with? |
| 19:59:49 | <huskle> | EvanR: or to be discouraged from explaining it! |
| 19:59:59 | <EvanR> | ghc 9.2.5 here, not new but newer than what I had last week |
| 20:00:25 | <huskle> | i thought that it didnt do anything new at all infact |
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| 20:01:02 | <monochrom> | We could debate again on whether GHC2022 would be a good idea... |
| 20:01:28 | <monochrom> | Or rather, GHC2023. |
| 20:01:39 | <huskle> | this is too far ahead thinking |
| 20:02:01 | <huskle> | my recent updates prevent me from thinking further ahead than the next meal |
| 20:02:07 | <monochrom> | https://discourse.haskell.org/t/quo-vadit-ghc2023/5220 I'm actually surprised that some people say no. |
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| 20:02:38 | <EvanR> | GHC Oh 23 |
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| 20:03:22 | <monochrom> | Or rather, I'm surprised some people say yes to GHC2021 and then no to GHC2023. |
| 20:04:14 | <EvanR> | are the proposals accelerating in frequency like zeno's paradox, and we are approaching a limiting ghc |
| 20:04:32 | <huskle> | just because im not getting bugs at the frequency i used too.. |
| 20:04:37 | <monochrom> | No I think it will be more or less periodic not zeno-converging. |
| 20:04:57 | <EvanR> | no singularity for monochrom |
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| 20:05:10 | <huskle> | i mean, if we were serious about that i could trying to dig up that code error that near killed me |
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| 20:05:17 | <monochrom> | Hell, it may even slow down. There are only so many extensions to add. |
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| 20:05:55 | <huskle> | one thing i think the haskell community could do better at is to do with this "no creative input" paradox |
| 20:05:59 | <monochrom> | Ugh did the code error cause harmful radiation on you so that it really warrants "nearly killed me"? |
| 20:06:07 | <huskle> | yes |
| 20:06:10 | <dsal> | ghc -O23 |
| 20:06:17 | <huskle> | i ended up in hospital |
| 20:06:28 | <EvanR> | there's more radiation in the hospital than outside |
| 20:06:43 | <huskle> | and since having been discharged still have not been able to access any GP care to get my prescription |
| 20:06:49 | <monochrom> | What is "no creative input"? |
| 20:07:00 | <huskle> | its to do with "well its your idea, so..." |
| 20:07:11 | <monochrom> | Wait, am I observationally equivalent to Elizer? >:) |
| 20:07:34 | <huskle> | EvanR: this is true, we documented / developed much of it during my stay |
| 20:07:49 | × | 029AAI9YL quits (~Thunderbi@179.214.113.107) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 20:07:49 | <huskle> | as im sure you can all appreciate given how we have been working here |
| 20:08:07 | <huskle> | at least haskell isnt as political as the NHS |
| 20:08:20 | <huskle> | or the compiler errors would be, like *even worse* |
| 20:08:30 | <EvanR> | huskle, what is the solution of this equation: x = x + 1 |
| 20:08:38 | <darkling> | Inject 'em with technetium, and PET them in the dark... :) |
| 20:09:00 | <huskle> | EvanR: im not sure why you would ask this. im not thankful for the interjection unfortunately |
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| 20:09:23 | <mauke> | Infinity, -Infinity, NaN, undefined |
| 20:09:24 | <EvanR> | is that all you got |
| 20:09:29 | × | mvk quits (~mvk@2607:fea8:5ce3:8500::efb) (Client Quit) |
| 20:09:40 | <EvanR> | mauke confirmed not a bot |
| 20:09:50 | <monochrom> | I still don't understand the ""no creative input" paradox" |
| 20:09:54 | <huskle> | what is this, twitter? |
| 20:10:14 | <mauke> | sorry for interrupting your blog |
| 20:10:25 | <huskle> | good |
| 20:10:30 | <huskle> | monochrom: its kind of an extreem version of "no spoonfeeding" its to do with strange loops |
| 20:10:56 | <monochrom> | Well I stand firming with no spoonfeeding. |
| 20:11:05 | <monochrom> | err, s/firming/firmly/ |
| 20:11:06 | <huskle> | makes my life a living hell, other than when people go to great lengths to augment it with things barely recoverable from in terms of space technology |
| 20:11:15 | <EvanR> | no spoon affirming |
| 20:11:20 | <monochrom> | At least, when I'm not getting paid to do spoonfeeding. |
| 20:11:37 | ← | jakalx parts (~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) (Error from remote client) |
| 20:11:49 | <huskle> | monochrom: the thing is, while its important that the people that end up fixing issues actually manage to do so, and often therefore cannot get the help they need |
| 20:12:02 | <monochrom> | Hell, even when I'm paid to teach a university course, I have an "I won't do spoonfeeding" course policy stated explicitly. |
| 20:12:15 | <monochrom> | Then again that's just because it's a university course. |
| 20:12:15 | <huskle> | something something i forget but ill just get old and die and nobody will understand or care because they will just rewrite history |
| 20:12:28 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net) |
| 20:12:32 | <EvanR> | spoonfeeding costs extra. 3rd party tutoring |
| 20:13:08 | <monochrom> | Yeah I'm open to getting paid 10 times more for spoonfeeding. |
| 20:13:13 | <huskle> | well i guess if your from an education background you might value the learning outcomes more than the other outcomes which might be important also |
| 20:13:20 | → | euandreh joins (~Thunderbi@179.214.113.107) |
| 20:13:24 | <huskle> | monochrom: you get paid, lets just leave it at that |
| 20:13:45 | <monochrom> | No I'm from a self-interest background I value getting paid for how much I do. |
| 20:13:59 | <huskle> | thats like some krishna thing |
| 20:14:00 | <mauke> | no, I actually do care about how much I'm paid |
| 20:14:02 | <huskle> | im dead against that |
| 20:14:07 | <huskle> | its a form of transactionalism |
| 20:14:10 | → | jakalx joins (~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) |
| 20:14:18 | <huskle> | its a result of the synchroniser being in the hands of liberals |
| 20:14:21 | <monochrom> | On IRC I don't get paid, I get to say "that's your job" much more often. |
| 20:14:41 | <huskle> | thanks for that... |
| 20:15:10 | <monochrom> | When a certain discussion interests me, I am happy to do more. |
| 20:15:16 | <EvanR> | huskle, how about that haskell |
| 20:15:18 | <monochrom> | But when not, why should I. |
| 20:15:21 | <huskle> | anyway, in terms of being "forward looking" or "having a say in the future of social credit systems"... |
| 20:15:50 | <EvanR> | lets see your advent of code solutions |
| 20:15:57 | <huskle> | EvanR: well sure, i guess with something as important as a far forwards vantage point central in the development of computing logic on which most of reality is based... |
| 20:16:16 | <huskle> | EvanR: i wrote the orignal turing machine, i think im does proving myself to the comunity. |
| 20:16:23 | × | o-90 quits (~o-90@gateway/tor-sasl/o-90) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 20:16:39 | <huskle> | though in terms of getting my mind off of this friday night business.. |
| 20:16:43 | <huskle> | link? |
| 20:16:47 | <EvanR> | after 2 straight days of nonsense on dwarf fortress steam discussions, this is annoying |
| 20:17:07 | <monochrom> | Wait, I thought I supervised Turing on writing the original Turing machine... |
| 20:17:07 | <huskle> | okok, chill |
| 20:17:18 | <huskle> | youd have thought so, but he was gay, so... |
| 20:17:37 | <huskle> | idk, ask tolkien |
| 20:17:42 | <mauke> | is this just outright trolling now? |
| 20:17:46 | <huskle> | he is my go to on all things category theory |
| 20:17:51 | <huskle> | mauke: i see what you did there |
| 20:18:02 | <monochrom> | OK sorry I was trolling! I'll stop. |
| 20:18:15 | <huskle> | you werent trolling, he was! |
| 20:19:00 | <huskle> | right, anyway, "supervising" at least this is comprehensably part of the discussion |
| 20:19:17 | <huskle> | iits to do with this "hands off" approach and the difficulty of colaberation |
| 20:19:27 | <mauke> | what discussion? |
| 20:20:29 | <huskle> | basically, i dont want to have to pluck ideas from my students heads just to get answers to questions my supervisors cant help with because they have already seen the answers - and dont have access to an energy minimisation shceme that could derive the creative input itself |
| 20:20:33 | → | bontaq joins (~user@ool-45779fe5.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 20:20:41 | <monochrom> | No, #haskell doesn't have a "no creative input" paradox. Instead, you millenials need to drop your entitlement attitude. |
| 20:20:54 | <huskle> | not this again... |
| 20:21:04 | <mauke> | heh |
| 20:21:20 | <huskle> | and then the mod doesnt explain what they mean, and we have to buy out twitter to make a metacomentary on class nepotism and bullying |
| 20:21:25 | <monochrom> | Damn right not this again. If you drop this topic, I will drop this topic. |
| 20:22:22 | <huskle> | sorry, what? if i drop the issue of "the complexity of time in the supervisation process" you will stop claiming that "this is me being *entitled* to mechanistically derived creative input" ... yeah, that kind of makes sense i guess |
| 20:22:44 | <huskle> | point is, i dont have students from which i can get answers! |
| 20:23:05 | <huskle> | so we are all kind of stuck wondering why the next big GHC extension is taking so long |
| 20:23:24 | <geekosaur> | ? |
| 20:23:33 | <huskle> | ^this |
| 20:23:35 | <geekosaur> | on second thought I don't think I want to know |
| 20:23:40 | <huskle> | its "informationless" |
| 20:24:06 | <huskle> | "no creative input"... its a "box" thing as far as i can tell |
| 20:24:09 | <monochrom> | Wow I thought I was the only one in town who play the "informationless" card. |
| 20:24:46 | <huskle> | probably common to those forwards nodes in the distributed knowledge generation framework |
| 20:25:00 | <mauke> | 4 informationless corners in one card |
| 20:25:30 | <huskle> | "yes, but then you would think .... " |
| 20:25:30 | <EvanR> | 4 simultaneous corners sun up sun down midday midnight |
| 20:26:38 | <EvanR> | time is not linear, it's cubic |
| 20:26:47 | <huskle> | idk, i kind of assumed that after whatever great advances we were supposed to be presiding over that were so critical for time, that we would be let off the hook and their would be a grand scale societal reconfiguration to reflect the passing of the singularity or whatever |
| 20:26:50 | <monochrom> | Change of subject: Do booleans exist in the untyped lambda calculus? >:) |
| 20:26:52 | × | coot quits (~coot@2a02:a310:e241:1b00:ec1a:e9df:79ac:66ba) (Quit: coot) |
| 20:27:08 | <EvanR> | since booleans are a type, no |
| 20:27:16 | <huskle> | aka "we can still censor you" |
| 20:27:27 | <monochrom> | Ah, right. I need to improve my question. |
| 20:27:40 | <geekosaur> | you can encode them in a number of ways, so yes |
| 20:27:42 | <monochrom> | Do the two boolean values exist in the untyped lambda calculus? |
| 20:27:53 | <EvanR> | "the" two boolean values xD |
| 20:28:08 | <mauke> | yes, true and bottom |
| 20:28:08 | <monochrom> | Right, so the issue is "do encodings count?" |
| 20:28:17 | <huskle> | fine speak among yourselves, iv said my bit |
| 20:28:33 | <geekosaur> | and I question its semantic content |
| 20:28:58 | <mauke> | monochrom: obviously, I'd first ask you to define "the two boolean values" |
| 20:29:07 | <EvanR> | can I derail further by asking what existence means |
| 20:29:08 | <monochrom> | :) |
| 20:29:15 | <monochrom> | :) :) |
| 20:29:45 | <EvanR> | I feel like I may have run out of IRC fuel but huskle |
| 20:29:54 | <huskle> | i was building a house of cards with a bunch of my profs, and they were like "did you know you can smash it down really easily" |
| 20:29:56 | <EvanR> | I guess YMMV |
| 20:30:30 | <huskle> | and i was like "yes you showed me that before" and they were like "but we cant help you build it, and i quite lake smashing it down" |
| 20:30:53 | <huskle> | and i was like "but my life is dwindled already" |
| 20:30:54 | <monochrom> | Are you done? |
| 20:31:27 | <EvanR> | also from a structural or process metaphysics point of view, it's easy to question the idea of "boolean values" in isolation |
| 20:31:30 | <mauke> | more like megabit |
| 20:31:43 | <huskle> | and they were like "smashy smashy, we can escalate this etc" and i was like "but can you not" and they were like "idk, iv never known anything except to abuse my power" |
| 20:31:55 | <EvanR> | the encoding that lets you case analyze is more identifiable |
| 20:32:02 | <mauke> | @where ops |
| 20:32:03 | <lambdabot> | byorgey Cale conal copumpkin dcoutts dibblego dolio edwardk geekosaur glguy jmcarthur johnw mniip monochrom quicksilver shachaf shapr ski |
| 20:32:05 | ChanServ | sets mode +o geekosaur |
| 20:32:08 | <mauke> | ah |
| 20:32:09 | <huskle> | threats |
| 20:32:14 | <huskle> | violence |
| 20:32:16 | <huskle> | bad mods |
| 20:32:16 | <EvanR> | ok monochrom is still an op, ok |
| 20:32:25 | geekosaur | sets mode +b *!*@250.79-105-213.static.virginmediabusiness.co.uk |
| 20:32:25 | huskle | is kicked by geekosaur (huskle) |
| 20:33:02 | <shapr> | thank you geekosaur |
| 20:33:27 | <geekosaur> | been sitting on that for a bit, they're annoying at best |
| 20:33:57 | <geekosaur> | it's timed, they get 15m |
| 20:34:33 | <geekosaur> | but with that last I may just permaban, they seem to think it's their right to just take over someone else's channel |
| 20:34:44 | <dminuoso> | mauke: No you couldnt |
| 20:34:52 | <dminuoso> | mauke: Or rather, it would require cooperation on your part. |
| 20:35:22 | <monochrom> | haha |
| 20:36:51 | <dminuoso> | mauke: the thing is, any time you save in trie based decoding, you would probably pay for in constructing that trie at runtime. |
| 20:37:32 | <EvanR> | you can't memoize it? |
| 20:37:45 | <dminuoso> | Sure, but that goes deeper into cooperation territory |
| 20:38:12 | <EvanR> | cooperation sounds good, maybe you wanna call it collusion xD |
| 20:38:27 | <dminuoso> | By that I mean you have to consciously help with memoization |
| 20:38:55 | <EvanR> | if parties are allowed to collude on performance, the performance goes through the roof |
| 20:38:57 | <dminuoso> | So something like the naive `asum [Foo <$ string "foo", Foobar <$ string "foobar", Fooquux <$ string ] |
| 20:39:04 | <dminuoso> | So something like the naive `asum [Foo <$ string "foo", Foobar <$ string "foobar", Fooquux <$ string "fooquux" ] wouldnt work |
| 20:39:17 | <dminuoso> | And as it stands right now, this type of megaparsec code will punish you twice. |
| 20:39:42 | <dminuoso> | First in terms of compilation (if that list approaches 64 in some combinations of code, you will experience expoentially raising compilation time right up until 10min or so) |
| 20:39:48 | <dminuoso> | and then you will suffer from poor backtracking |
| 20:39:57 | <monochrom> | :( |
| 20:41:37 | <EvanR> | I'm still at the last bus stop where we are using megaparsec and worrying about performance |
| 20:41:48 | <EvanR> | in absolute terms |
| 20:42:03 | <dminuoso> | I just named megaparsec because I know the compilation time to degrade that poorly in that particular case |
| 20:42:10 | <dminuoso> | attoparsec probably has similar problems |
| 20:42:38 | <dminuoso> | its just a result of the library attaching INLINE to pretty much every declaration, and then having very deep binding trees. |
| 20:42:55 | <dminuoso> | (so each time you use a variable, you will drag insane amounts of code that the simplifier has to deal with) |
| 20:43:22 | <dminuoso> | flatparse has inline everywhere too, but the definitions are extremely shallow |
| 20:43:44 | × | tromp quits (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
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| 20:46:05 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 20:46:37 | <mauke> | what was the paper or article that did parser combinators without explicit backtracking? |
| 20:47:07 | <mauke> | I can't remember the author or title :-( |
| 20:47:37 | ChanServ | sets mode +o litharge |
| 20:47:37 | litharge | sets mode -bo *!*@250.79-105-213.static.virginmediabusiness.co.uk litharge |
| 20:48:55 | <mauke> | I think it went along the lines of data Parser a = Succeed a | Consume (Char -> Parser a) | Fail String |
| 20:49:27 | <EvanR> | should work |
| 20:49:29 | <mauke> | or possibly a list of successes |
| 20:49:34 | <dminuoso> | mauke: `scanner` looks like that. |
| 20:50:03 | <[exa]> | mauke: how much are lists an explicit backtracking? |
| 20:50:36 | <mauke> | and then Consume f <|> Consume g = Consume (\c -> f c <|> g c) |
| 20:51:30 | <dminuoso> | Backtracking is an interesting topic, since I spend a lot of thoughts on how to deal with stateful parsing in flatparse. |
| 20:51:50 | <dminuoso> | Right now we keep an Int# worth of state around, but thats not enough for parsing whitespace sensitive languages with reasonable inputs |
| 20:51:52 | <mauke> | dminuoso: scanner doesn't seem to have a <|> |
| 20:52:45 | <dminuoso> | In flatparse backtracking is very cheap since all other state we have is just a pointer offset in the bytestring buffer, its essentially cost-free |
| 20:53:34 | <dminuoso> | One thought I had was that you can just use IORef for all state you want, but then you must decouple state mutation from backtracking regions (which is how things like Happy or Bison work anyway) |
| 20:53:48 | <dminuoso> | because in happy the backtracking happens in the BNF syntax, not in the monadic actions |
| 20:53:49 | × | eggplantade quits (~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:cc2a:ce80:f3c:358f) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 20:56:39 | <dminuoso> | do we have a haskell aoc channel on libera? |
| 20:57:14 | → | coot joins (~coot@2a02:a310:e241:1b00:ec1a:e9df:79ac:66ba) |
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| 20:58:51 | <geekosaur> | doesn't seem like it |
| 20:59:01 | × | festive_kurbus quits (~festive_k@user/kurbus) (Client Quit) |
| 21:00:27 | <EvanR> | haskell is cheating, we shouldn't encourage it |
| 21:03:34 | <EvanR> | though sometimes I think anti-haskell details are included in the puzzle, like today involves the subject of a head and a tail, which are almost language keywords, messing up your variable names |
| 21:04:12 | <dminuoso> | Im just randomly poking at day 5 now. |
| 21:04:13 | <dminuoso> | Think I need repa. |
| 21:04:20 | <EvanR> | lol |
| 21:05:12 | <mauke> | I went with STArray |
| 21:09:09 | → | tromp joins (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) |
| 21:11:37 | <glguy> | dminuoso: people talk about aoc here, and then there's also the generic #adventofcode and #adventofcode-spoilers that happens to have a number of haskell solvers |
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| 21:17:16 | → | jcowan joins (sid325434@2a03:5180:f:3::4:f73a) |
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| 21:18:07 | <jcowan> | To what types (other than functions) would Eq be inapplicable? |
| 21:18:54 | → | califax joins (~califax@user/califx) |
| 21:19:04 | <EvanR> | real numbers |
| 21:20:29 | <dminuoso> | Float or Double if we were being honest. |
| 21:21:15 | → | zant2 joins (~zant@62.214.20.26) |
| 21:21:19 | <dminuoso> | Because Reflexivity doesnt hold (since NaN /= NaN) |
| 21:21:35 | <dminuoso> | IO actions |
| 21:22:56 | × | phma quits (phma@2001:5b0:211b:de08:e3b4:8590:6dc5:da01) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 21:23:02 | <dminuoso> | jcowan: Though the Float/Double case might be a good example that it depends on the interpretation of the data. |
| 21:23:21 | <dsal> | Void has an Eq instance… |
| 21:23:27 | → | phma joins (~phma@host-67-44-208-53.hnremote.net) |
| 21:23:57 | <dminuoso> | dsal: Seems fine. |
| 21:24:10 | <dolio> | That ones' easy. |
| 21:24:48 | <dsal> | Oh weird. It's derived. I'd expect it to be `const True` or something. |
| 21:25:04 | <dminuoso> | It's bottom. |
| 21:25:10 | <dminuoso> | dsal: Consider that Void is inhabited by just bottom, which itself inhabits every other type, including say `Bool` |
| 21:25:42 | <dminuoso> | Ah but you're right |
| 21:25:44 | <dsal> | Yeah, it's the "you can't get there" part. But the implementation presumably would return True. |
| 21:25:45 | <dminuoso> | its const True |
| 21:25:50 | <EvanR> | anyway, another one is TuringMachine |
| 21:25:50 | <dminuoso> | % import Data.Void |
| 21:25:50 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 21:25:59 | <dminuoso> | % (undefined :: Void) == undefined |
| 21:25:59 | <yahb2> | True |
| 21:26:27 | × | thegeekinside quits (~thegeekin@189.217.82.244) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 21:26:54 | <dminuoso> | I guess that follows from reflexitity and the fact that Void is inhabited by only one value |
| 21:28:43 | <EvanR> | (==) :: Void -> Void -> Bool; x == y impossible |
| 21:29:15 | <EvanR> | in another language maybe xD |
| 21:29:22 | <dminuoso> | Which begs an interesting question |
| 21:29:27 | <dminuoso> | % () == undefined |
| 21:29:27 | <yahb2> | *** Exception: Prelude.undefined ; CallStack (from HasCallStack): ; error, called at libraries/base/GHC/Err.hs:74:14 in base:GHC.Err ; undefined, called at <interactive>:66:7 in interactive:Ghci13 |
| 21:29:39 | <dminuoso> | Mmm. Shouldnt this return True? |
| 21:29:56 | <dminuoso> | Or uh. I guess this is right after all |
| 21:29:59 | <EvanR> | handling bottoms can be tricky |
| 21:32:55 | <dsal> | Oh, so Void is inhabited by one value, but you can't get to it, so it's *effectively* no values. |
| 21:33:23 | <dminuoso> | No it has one value. |
| 21:33:31 | <mniip> | what's a value anyway |
| 21:33:32 | <dminuoso> | So any comparison could ever be with itself |
| 21:33:46 | <dminuoso> | And by law of refl that must compare to True |
| 21:34:09 | <EvanR> | > [minBound .. maxBound] :: [Void] |
| 21:34:10 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 21:34:10 | <lambdabot> | • No instance for (Enum Void) |
| 21:34:11 | <lambdabot> | arising from the arithmetic sequence ‘minBound .. maxBound’ |
| 21:34:13 | <dminuoso> | It's cunning, really |
| 21:34:53 | <dminuoso> | EvanR: Heh! `fromEnum undefined = 0`? |
| 21:34:55 | <EvanR> | back to the bool in untyped lambda calculus, it depends on what you're going to do with it |
| 21:35:03 | <dminuoso> | Or whats the expected behavior :D |
| 21:35:13 | <dminuoso> | Other than that, I think its fine |
| 21:35:13 | <EvanR> | if you never used bottom, Void is what it says on the tin |
| 21:35:18 | <dminuoso> | succ undefined = undefined; pred undefined = undefined |
| 21:35:27 | <dminuoso> | Can even to `toEnum _ = undefined` |
| 21:35:31 | <jcowan> | there should perhaps be a compiler option to treat NaN as bottom, which would be much better alignment with theory |
| 21:35:55 | <EvanR> | whiney NaN |
| 21:35:55 | <dminuoso> | jcowan: Float/Double are IEEE 754 primitives. |
| 21:36:03 | <dminuoso> | jcowan: As such the equality respects IEE 754 |
| 21:36:09 | <jcowan> | I understand |
| 21:36:17 | <dminuoso> | Treating NaN as bottom would be horrid. |
| 21:36:31 | <dminuoso> | What *would* be useful would an option to have IEEE 754 traps |
| 21:36:33 | <EvanR> | if you ever compute a NaN ghc deletes your code |
| 21:36:47 | <dminuoso> | jcowan: So that would kind of fall into that idea |
| 21:37:56 | <jcowan> | In typical fp code, (quiet) NaN is sticky: whatever you do to NaN it remains NaN. This is very much how bottom works (or "works") |
| 21:38:21 | <dminuoso> | NaN can be compared to NaN |
| 21:38:23 | <darkling> | Ah, no, you don't want NaNs, you want Nullity! |
| 21:38:28 | × | codaraxis___ quits (~codaraxis@user/codaraxis) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 21:38:30 | <dminuoso> | That is one mighty difference |
| 21:38:36 | <dminuoso> | Ah but hold on |
| 21:38:45 | <dminuoso> | As we have established `undefined :: Void == undefined` earlier |
| 21:38:45 | <dsal> | Void has one value because we can't have zero values, but it's "A logically uninhabited data type, used to indicate that a given term should not exist." |
| 21:38:47 | <dminuoso> | Hah! |
| 21:39:00 | <dminuoso> | (But that only works because of Void, so ignore that) |
| 21:39:11 | <dsal> | The smart constructor for Void is absurd. |
| 21:39:30 | <c_wraith> | no, that's the destructor |
| 21:39:40 | <jcowan> | Nan == NaN is false because in an eager world it has to be something, but it should really return NaB (not a boolean) |
| 21:39:43 | <EvanR> | if you want to stop anyone from observing a difference, make bottom or NaN freeze the computer. If you're have discpline you can get the same effect by just not observing a difference, and it's more flexible |
| 21:40:01 | <dsal> | c_wraith: Oh yeah, I see. |
| 21:40:08 | <dminuoso> | jcowan: No, it is false because whether two unknown values are the same. |
| 21:40:09 | <mniip> | data Double = D1 | D1_0000000000000002 | D1_0000000000000004 | ... |
| 21:40:14 | <dminuoso> | jcowan: its similar to how SQL NULL /= NULL |
| 21:40:24 | <dminuoso> | (or rather, neither holds) |
| 21:40:31 | <dminuoso> | they are neither equal nor not-equal |
| 21:40:55 | <dminuoso> | AH I missed a portion. It is unknown whether two unknown values are the same or not. |
| 21:41:33 | <jcowan> | Exactly, hence in SQL, NULL = NULL is NULL |
| 21:42:04 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net) |
| 21:42:08 | <jcowan> | so NaN == NaN should return a null that is typed boolean. |
| 21:42:37 | <EvanR> | Bool = True | False | Null | FileNotFound |
| 21:42:45 | jcowan | giggles |
| 21:43:07 | <darkling> | Equal there is or not equal. There is no lattice. |
| 21:43:45 | jcowan | lols outright, possibly scaring the pigeons |
| 21:44:09 | <jcowan> | Except in Ireland, where the rule is "Lattice alone". |
| 21:44:18 | <dminuoso> | Mmm |
| 21:44:31 | <dminuoso> | % (0/0) /= (0/0) |
| 21:44:31 | <yahb2> | True |
| 21:44:35 | <dminuoso> | That seems wrong, no? |
| 21:44:46 | <dminuoso> | Shoudlnt IEEE 754 demand this operation return False? |
| 21:45:14 | <jcowan> | The /= operation isn't primitive; it is the negation of ==. |
| 21:45:43 | <EvanR> | haskell is lazy, it will wait for the actual demand for that operation to yield the right answer |
| 21:46:24 | <dminuoso> | jcowan: that seems irrelevant |
| 21:46:29 | <jcowan> | You can model floats as intervals (although float arithmetic is not interval arithmetic). In that model, NaN is the union of the empty interval and the universal interval. |
| 21:46:40 | <dminuoso> | Its a method of Eq |
| 21:46:42 | <dminuoso> | As such you can override it. |
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| 21:46:52 | <dminuoso> | And its not less primitive than (==) too |
| 21:46:55 | <jcowan> | I was talking about IEEE |
| 21:46:58 | <dminuoso> | {-# MINIMAL (==) | (/=) #-} |
| 21:47:15 | <dsal> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.17.0.0/docs/Data-Eq.html#t:Eq |
| 21:47:33 | <EvanR> | jcowan, that doesn't explain why NaN /= NaN |
| 21:47:34 | <dsal> | You can have things that are neither equal nor not equal. |
| 21:47:59 | <EvanR> | er, doesn't == |
| 21:48:25 | <dminuoso> | Let me dig into the stndard |
| 21:49:21 | <dminuoso> | `Four mutually exclusive relations are possible: less than, equal, greater than, and unordered. The last case arises when at least one operand is NaN. Every NaN shall compare unordered with everything, including itself` |
| 21:49:57 | <dminuoso> | I suppose that seems faithful then, since `NaN /= NaN` does neither indicate less than, equal or greater than |
| 21:49:58 | <jcowan> | EvanR: In IEEE, /= is defined as "not ==", whereas the definition of = is by fiat |
| 21:50:32 | <dminuoso> | ` In contrast, the logical negation of (X = Y) might be written as either NOT(X = Y) or (X ?<> Y); in this case both expressions are functionally equivalent to (X ≠ Y).` |
| 21:50:35 | <EvanR> | I'm saying if NaN is supposed to be a universal interval, it would equal itself |
| 21:50:42 | <dsal> | > sort [nan, nan] |
| 21:50:43 | <lambdabot> | [NaN,NaN] |
| 21:50:58 | <dsal> | > sort [3, nan, 2, nan, 1] |
| 21:50:59 | <lambdabot> | [1.0,NaN,2.0,NaN,3.0] |
| 21:51:04 | <dsal> | neat |
| 21:51:08 | <dminuoso> | EvanR: There's a very good answer from someone who was on the 754 committee on SO that goes a bit into the details why https://stackoverflow.com/a/1573715/6636995 |
| 21:52:19 | <dminuoso> | mauke: I guess you have two STUArrays right? One with the 2-dimensional array, and one with offsets for each stack? |
| 21:52:35 | <EvanR> | > 1/0 == 1/0 |
| 21:52:35 | <dminuoso> | though mmm |
| 21:52:36 | <lambdabot> | True |
| 21:53:06 | <EvanR> | dminuoso, reading the last bit sounds like == and NaN is basically historical accident |
| 21:53:22 | <dminuoso> | Not necessarily accident |
| 21:54:13 | <EvanR> | a sort of calculated corner cutting |
| 21:54:23 | <dminuoso> | EvanR: Did you read his Kahan quotes? |
| 21:54:30 | <dminuoso> | (or paraphrasing) |
| 21:55:21 | <EvanR> | "missing isnan()" |
| 21:55:34 | <EvanR> | I mean come on |
| 21:55:53 | <dminuoso> | That was nearly 40 years ago. |
| 21:56:12 | <EvanR> | 40 years ago keeps getting more modern |
| 21:56:13 | <dminuoso> | THere's also the hardware implementation argument |
| 21:56:32 | <EvanR> | 40 years ago was super mario bros on NES xD |
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| 21:58:39 | <money> | Yeahhhh |
| 21:58:42 | <money> | What no was |
| 21:58:44 | <money> | Way |
| 22:00:18 | <jcowan> | IEEE 754 eliminated the chaos and confusion of earlier FPPs, and that is worth any number of cut corners to a numerical programmer, by all reports (I'm not one) |
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| 22:01:16 | <jcowan> | Anyway, I'm glad to know about the pragmatic argument, even if it is long obsolete |
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| 22:09:21 | <RedSwan> | Hello World! |
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| 22:09:45 | <geekosaur> | hm |
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| 22:25:14 | <mauke> | dminuoso: no, just a single mutable array of lists |
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| 22:47:31 | <EvanR> | mauke, did you have like 9 lists. Seems like an immutable update(s) would be enough? |
| 22:48:12 | <EvanR> | based on nothing admittedly |
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| 22:58:45 | <mauke> | EvanR: I wrote my first version in perl, so I reused the basic approach |
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| 22:58:59 | <mauke> | also, I'd never used STArray before, so I wanted to play around with it |
| 22:59:04 | <EvanR> | ah yeah |
| 22:59:15 | <EvanR> | translating an existing algorithm |
| 22:59:26 | <EvanR> | yes haskell can do that! |
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