Logs on 2022-12-13 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:10:20	<intelligent_boat>	hm. still learning new things about how to think about performance in Haskell. let's say I have: let s = "5", let op = (* (read s)), map op [1, 2, 3, 4]. I was actually wondering whether it would try to parse the string multiple times, which would seem to me like unnecessary work
00:10:56	<intelligent_boat>	but, if I change that to let op = (* (trace "read it" $ read s)), "read it" was only printed once, so it suggests the read was only done once (I hope)
00:11:43	<intelligent_boat>	how do I know these things in advance so I don't have to wonder "is this thing going to be performed multiple times or just once" ?
00:12:00	<dsal>	On one level, thinking about performance in haskell is like thinking about performance in any other language. "Is my program fast enough? If yes, great. If not, measure it and see what part's slow."
00:12:24	<dsal>	It's not impossible for trace to mislead you.
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00:12:47	<dsal>	But if you really want to know, compile to core and see what happens to your code after rules and optimizer passes.
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00:19:42	<dminuoso>	intelligent_boat: As a very rough guideline, if you put it onto a let binding, there's a fair chance it will be shared.
00:20:20	<dminuoso>	But if GHC determines it to be very cheap/small, it will inline it regardless
00:20:34	<dminuoso>	We do have pragmas like NOINLINE to prevent that, however.
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00:23:28	<dsal>	I did something like the above and it spat out this: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/z95TStPM/coredump.txt
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00:24:52	<dminuoso>	monomorphism restriction to the rescue.
00:25:10	<dsal>	That's happening inside the map, though…
00:25:18	<dminuoso>	oh hah
00:25:26	<dminuoso>	You're right
00:26:00	<dminuoso>	Im not entirely sure why it was floated inwards
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00:26:49	<geekosaur>	what -O level?
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00:28:20	<dsal>	I guess it didn't pick that up in my ghci venture. Otherwise, with -O2 it blows it all over the place.
00:28:40	<dsal>	https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/euO9O1VL/ohtwo.hs
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00:30:03	<dminuoso>	intelligent_boat: Also note that doing these attempts in ghci can be misleading due to MMR and optimization levels.
00:30:40	<dsal>	Man, this core thing is worse at naming stuff than I am.
00:30:41	<intelligent_boat>	dang. yup I did that exerpiment in GHC
00:31:10	<geekosaur>	ghci usually disables optimization
00:31:39	<geekosaur>	for a long time one of the non-disableable optimizations was unboxing tuples, which caused ghci to crash
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00:36:00	<dminuoso>	Mmm, even for lists of unknown size this will float the read in.
00:37:21	<dminuoso>	Ah it may be just with optimizations turned off
00:39:33	<dsal>	Yeah, the large one is -O2. `ints5 :: Int` does the read.
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00:41:14	<dsal>	But I stand by my first statement. Is it fast enough? If not, measure.
00:41:20	<dsal>	Real code wouldn't have a `read` in it anyway. :)
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00:42:39	<dsal>	Haskell has all kinds of weird things that sounds like "how long is a string?"
00:43:02	<dsal>	How long does it take to compute the length of a list of 2^31 elements? Depends on whether you want to know the length or not.
00:44:50	<dsal>	> asum [Just 3, Just (length (replicate (2^31) 'a'))]
00:44:52	<lambdabot>	Just 3
00:46:03	<dsal>	One of my AoC solutions from a year or two ago finished in nanoseconds. (compilation was a bit slower on that one)
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02:14:38	<EvanR>	dsal's flowchart: 10 is it fast enough? No -> optimize it >> goto 10; Yes -> no it isn't >> goto to
02:14:50	<EvanR>	10
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02:28:40	<jackdk>	optimises to 10: optimise it; 20: goto 10
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02:29:48	<EvanR>	fix optimize
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02:32:18	<jackdk>	`fix error` results in a program that never returns an incorrect value :-)
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02:52:21	<dsal>	If it's good enough, I try to do something more complicated.
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04:35:55	<iqubic>	:t (>>=) (>>=)
04:35:55	<lambdabot>	Monad m => (((a -> m b1) -> m b1) -> m a -> b2) -> m a -> b2
04:36:02	<iqubic>	What?!?!?!
04:39:50	<c_wraith>	> (+1) >>= (*) $ 4
04:39:52	<lambdabot>	20
04:40:02	<int-e>	Yeah any (a ->) b is a monadic value.
04:44:28	<c_wraith>	:t (>>=) `asAppliedTo` (>>=)
04:44:29	<lambdabot>	Monad m => (m a -> (a -> m b1) -> m b1) -> (((a -> m b1) -> m b1) -> m a -> b2) -> m a -> b2
04:44:47	<c_wraith>	that's pretty awful.
04:45:46	<int-e>	:t (>>=)
04:45:47	<lambdabot>	Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
04:46:00	<int-e>	(that's not a small type at all)
04:46:24	<xerox>	:t (=<<) (>>=)
04:46:25	<lambdabot>	Monad m => ((a -> m b) -> m a) -> (a -> m b) -> m b
04:47:03	<xerox>	:t (=<<) (=<<) (=<<)
04:47:04	<lambdabot>	(a -> a -> a) -> a -> a
04:47:31	<int-e>	> (=<<) (=<<) (=<<) (+) 3
04:47:32	<lambdabot>	9
04:47:42	<int-e>	> (=<<) (=<<) (=<<) (-) 3
04:47:43	<lambdabot>	-3
04:48:10	<xerox>	(:
04:49:21	<int-e>	negate = (=<<) (=<<) (=<<) (-) -- don't use for floating point numbers
04:49:38	<xerox>	haha
04:50:26	<int-e>	This about as sane as the xor-swap trick is in C.
04:51:30	<EvanR>	in most dynamic languages you can do anything, but using a function on itself probably results in nonsense.
04:51:52	<EvanR>	in haskell the type system usually stops you from doing anything, but using a function on itself probably works
04:52:30	<EvanR>	*with different specializations
04:52:58	<int-e>	:t foldl foldl
04:52:59	<lambdabot>	error:
04:53:00	<lambdabot>	• Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a ~ a -> a
04:53:00	<lambdabot>	Expected type: ((a -> a) -> a -> a)
04:53:18	<EvanR>	:t (+) (+)
04:53:18	<int-e>	(it often doesn't work, even for polymorphic functions)
04:53:19	<lambdabot>	(Num a, Num (a -> a -> a)) => (a -> a -> a) -> a -> a -> a
04:53:36	<int-e>	:t fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap
04:53:37	<lambdabot>	(Functor f1, Functor f2, Functor f3) => (a -> b) -> f1 (f2 (f3 a)) -> f1 (f2 (f3 b))
04:54:04	<int-e>	(this runs into a cycle if you keep adding more `fmap`s)
04:54:18	<int-e>	(don't ask me how I know, I was bored)
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04:55:56	<EvanR>	wait...
04:56:04	<EvanR>	a cycle always with three functors?
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04:57:14	<int-e>	> fmap fmap fmap (+) (*) 1 2 x
04:57:15	<lambdabot>	1 * 2 + x
04:58:03	<int-e>	EvanR: I mean you have fmap^k = fmap^l for some natural k < l. I forgot the numbers.
04:59:23	<int-e>	(one thing that happens is that the functors get force-instantiated as (a ->) for various a)
04:59:40	<int-e>	(but that doesn't explain why the type remains small-ish... it could grow forever)
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05:02:48	<EvanR>	right
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05:30:50	<iqubic>	Is there a good way to write a parser "tryOr :: Parser a -> a -> Parser a" with the semantics that if the first parser fails then the whole thing succeeds with the given default value?
05:32:35	<geekosaur>	`tryOr p def = try p <\|> pure def` ? (`try` depends on which parser lib)
05:33:24	<iqubic>	Yeah... that should work.
05:33:30	<iqubic>	It's megaparsec
05:33:35	<int-e>	but this kind of alternative is a basic building block of any parsing library
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05:37:01	<iqubic>	Is it? I can't seem to find a default thing for it in megaparsec
05:39:33	<int-e>	I mean <\|>... `tryOr p def = try p <\|> pure def` doesn't pass the https://wiki.haskell.org/Fairbairn_threshold to my mind
05:39:37	<geekosaur>	optional is from Control.Applicative, megaparsec reuses it
05:39:59	<int-e>	:t Control.Applicative.optional
05:40:00	<lambdabot>	Alternative f => f a -> f (Maybe a)
05:40:14	<geekosaur>	this is a downside of the refactoring, you have to look in 3 or 4 places for things now
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05:41:17	<c_wraith>	also, all those things that were exported to parser-combinators...
05:41:49	<geekosaur>	right that was one of the other places I was referring to
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06:37:31	<DigitalKiwi>	my paste client used to fit in one file and i could run it with nix-shell/cabal shebangs but then i refactored it into lots of files and that doesn't work anymore sad day
06:38:09	<DigitalKiwi>	https://gist.github.com/Kiwi/92415b46d58bfce34f7773944b6dcc67
06:38:44	<DigitalKiwi>	https://github.com/Kiwi/absurd-paste-client
06:39:02	<DigitalKiwi>	it also got more features etc. lol but still
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07:44:27	<iqubic>	What sorting algorithm does Data.List.Sort use?
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07:46:54	<iqubic>	Looks like it uses a mergesort.
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07:49:26	<DigitalKiwi>	surely it would use the 4 line quicksort
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08:14:03	<EvanR>	@src sort
08:14:03	<lambdabot>	sort = sortBy compare
08:14:10	<EvanR>	nod
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08:21:28	<DigitalKiwi>	nice
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12:37:55	<dminuoso>	`show <$> [1, "foo", 'a']`
12:38:01	<dminuoso>	I so want to be albe to write this. :(
12:39:06	<_________>	you just wrote this ;)
12:39:08	<dminuoso>	Heh.
12:39:10	<dminuoso>	Is this in principle even possible?
12:39:21	<dminuoso>	fmap show (1:"foo":a:[])
12:39:43	<dminuoso>	This would at minimum require impredicativity
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12:40:26	<geekosaur>	not in Haskell. you could use an existential wrapper so the list items would all be the same type, but at that point it's just as easy to simply wrap all items in `show` and solve the problem
12:40:54	<dminuoso>	% :set -XExistentialQuantification
12:40:54	<yahb2>	<no output>
12:40:57	<dminuoso>	data AList = forall a. ACons a AList \| ANil
12:41:00	<dminuoso>	% data AList = forall a. ACons a AList \| ANil
12:41:00	<yahb2>	<no output>
12:41:16	<dminuoso>	geekosaur: The thing is, the show wont push the Show constraint into that existential list
12:41:32	<dminuoso>	fmap is not capable of doing that
12:41:37	<geekosaur>	nope, you would need the Show constraint on the existential
12:42:02	<geekosaur>	which is why it's easier to just wrap everything in show manually: it's more work to do the existential
12:42:09	<dminuoso>	Maybe with `constraints` and GADTs I could do this?
12:42:50	<dminuoso>	geekosaur: Sure, Im just trying to come up with a way that requires neither a constraint on an existential newtype, nor float the show into
12:43:10	geekosaur	is wondering about some clever quasiquoter or something
12:43:13	<dminuoso>	I think it could be done with an alteration of `fmap`
12:43:20	<dminuoso>	Something that communicates constraints
12:43:27	<geekosaur>	[fmap\|1, "oo", 'a']
12:43:39	<geekosaur>	s/oo/foo/
12:43:45	<dminuoso>	TH feels like cheating here
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12:45:32	<dminuoso>	% :set -XImpredicativeTypes
12:45:33	<yahb2>	<no output>
12:45:40	<dminuoso>	% :t (1:"foo":a:[])
12:45:40	<yahb2>	<interactive>:1:10: error: Variable not in scope: a :: String
12:45:43	<dminuoso>	% :t (1:"foo":'a':[])
12:45:43	<yahb2>	<interactive>:1:10: error: ; • Couldn't match type ‘Char’ with ‘[Char]’ ; Expected: String ; Actual: Char ; • In the first argument of ‘(:)’, namely ‘'a'’ ; In the secon...
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12:46:13	<dminuoso>	I guess we lack a typing rule to generalize here?
12:47:15	<Clint>	what would the type of that list be?
12:47:31	<dminuoso>	[exist a. a]
12:47:59	<geekosaur>	that can't exist in Haskell, it has to be wrapped in a newtype
12:48:08	<geekosaur>	ImpredicativeTypes doesn't help
12:49:03	<dminuoso>	Why cant it exist, though?
12:49:16	<geekosaur>	and even if it could, you wouldn't know the types of the items coming out, so the newtype wrapper also has to include a constrant that gives you some handle on the types coming out (here, Show)
12:49:39	<geekosaur>	but at that point you;re doing mroe work than manually writing [show 1, show "foo", show 'a']
12:49:53	<mniip>	clearly, when I write 'x' I actually mean `'x' :: exists a. (all instances that Char satifies) *> a`
12:51:12	<geekosaur>	dminuoso, you could write a typing rule that let you create such a list. you can't write a typing rule that lets you deconstruct it
12:51:36	<dminuoso>	geekosaur: I think mniip captured my thought well enough mmm.
12:51:55	<mniip>	that makes a closed world assumption
12:52:01	<dminuoso>	My initial instinct that by using fmap, perhaps one could conjure a typing rule that would flow the constraint into the existential
12:52:04	<dminuoso>	Right
12:52:20	<_________>	are you rediscovering HList?
12:52:21	<dminuoso>	Or perhaps not necessarily, if we had some obscure magic `AnySatisfy Char` constraint resolvable later.
12:53:03	<mniip>	well if you didn't want [1, "foo", 'a'] to have the weird type on its own, you would have to give `fmap show` a weird type
12:53:50	<mniip>	rewriting `show :: forall a. Show a => a -> String` as `show :: (exists a. Show a *> a) -> String`
12:54:02	<lortabac>	dminuoso: you can create your own list type, something like this: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/FjPlR3jb
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12:55:51	<dminuoso>	lortabac: Mmm thats interesting.
12:56:16	<[Leary]>	That's the same as a list of existentials though. You can instead preserve the type information with an HList and write something like:
12:56:22	<[Leary]>	`monomap :: (forall x. c x => x -> a) -> HList c xs -> [a]`
12:56:23	<mniip>	% fmap (\x -> x show) ([\k -> k 1, \k -> k "foo", \k -> k 'a'] :: [forall r. (forall a. Show a => a -> r) -> r])
12:56:23	<yahb2>	["1","\"foo\"","'a'"]
12:57:12	<mniip>	unforunately $ is not magical enough for ($ show) or ($ 1) to work here
12:58:45	<dminuoso>	% :set -XDeepSubsumption
12:58:45	<yahb2>	<no output>
12:58:49	<lortabac>	[Leary]: that's the same minus the need to wrap every single item with an existential constructor
12:59:00	<dminuoso>	% fmap ($ show) ([\k -> k 1, \k -> k "foo", \k -> k 'a'] :: [forall r. (forall a. Show a => a -> r) -> r])
12:59:00	<yahb2>	<interactive>:38:15: error: ; • Couldn't match type: forall r. (forall a. Show a => a -> r) -> r ; with: (a0 -> String) -> b ; Expected: [(a0 -> String) -> b] ; ...
12:59:14	<mniip>	nothing to do with deep subsumption
13:00:25	<_________>	% fmap (`$` show) ([\k -> k 1, \k -> k "foo", \k -> k 'a'] :: [forall r. (forall a. Show a => a -> r) -> r])
13:00:25	<yahb2>	Oops, something went wrong
13:00:29	<dminuoso>	[Leary]: I may have to revisit HList, its not entirely clear how that would type check
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13:00:44	<mniip>	oh actually
13:00:48	<mniip>	this may be a bug in QuickLook
13:01:07	<mniip>	that for some reason makes operator sections inequvalent to their expanded form
13:02:05	<mniip>	\k -> k `id` 1 typechecks, but (`id` 1) does not
13:03:20	<[Leary]>	dminuoso: Here, the definition would be like `data HList c xs where Nil :: HList c '[]; Cons :: c x => x -> HList c xs -> HList c (x:xs)`, then `monomap f Nil = Nil; monomap f (Cons x xs) = f x : monomap f xs`.
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13:25:31	<merijn>	Is there a quick and dirty way to get a DAG of imports within a component?
13:25:54	<merijn>	I'm trying to minimise a reproducer and wanna see which leaf modules I can trim
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13:36:41	<_________>	not sure if it will help you, but ghc has -ddump-minimal-imports option which creates .imports files with minimal number of imports for each module
13:37:10	<merijn>	That doesn't really help, no
13:37:24	<merijn>	I need to know which modules in the package aren't imported by anything else
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13:37:39	<merijn>	so I can start trimming stuff until only a (hopefully handful) of modules remain for the reproducer
13:38:12	<jean-paul[m]>	I remember a couple projects for doing visualizations - maybe https://hackage.haskell.org/package/haskell-import-graph was one, not sure. a module that isn't imported by anything will have no edges pointing in to it, or something
13:38:44	<dminuoso>	That looks stunningly simple, since it just works on the .hi files
13:38:53	<[Leary]>	merijn: My quick-and-dirty: the leaf modules should form a final run when compiled, so just kill them in the opposite order cabal builds them?
13:38:59	<merijn>	dminuoso: Well, that won't work, then xD
13:39:22	<merijn>	[Leary]: Well, the seems to assume the build actually, you know, finishes
13:39:27	<merijn>	s/the/that
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13:39:40	<merijn>	My entire problem is that GHC is crashing :p
13:39:45	<dminuoso>	merijn: Mmm, why not?
13:39:48	<[Leary]>	True. Old build logs should suffice though.
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13:40:06	<merijn>	And I'm trying to get a reproducer for GHC HQ that is not "here's 200 modules, template haskell, and foreign code, good luck!"
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13:40:57	<[Leary]>	Maybe there's some sort of cabal --dry-run that would simulate it.
13:42:05	<dminuoso>	That would not produce the full import graph, though.
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13:47:26	<dminuoso>	merijn: Using Cabal-syntax and just quick heuristic parsing (or using `ghc`) should be relatively easy though
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13:49:48	<dminuoso>	Hah this is a cool use of BlockArguments and LambdaCase https://github.com/ocharles/weeder/blob/master/src/Weeder.hs#L367-L373
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13:51:30	<dminuoso>	mniip: I just thought deep subsumption because my brains pattern matching recalls equivalence to eta expanded forms in some situations is one of the things you give up with simple subsumption.
13:51:43	<dminuoso>	It looked like the same pattern :)
13:51:53	<merijn>	dminuoso: I mean, 90% of that is LambdaCase?
13:52:11	<merijn>	BlockArguments just eliminates the $
13:52:38	<dminuoso>	merijn: Sure, but all-in-all this looks very elegant.
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13:53:19	<[Leary]>	$ would also break the composition
13:53:32	<merijn>	oh, right
13:53:45	<merijn>	Trivially solved by making it a list and using Endo :p
13:53:58	<merijn>	or something :p
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13:55:53	<mauke>	I wish lambdabot had BlockArguments turned on
13:56:09	<maerwald>	it would win every argument...
13:56:32	<merijn>	I find BlockArguments kinda meh
13:56:43	<mauke>	> do negate do sqrt do 2
13:56:44	<lambdabot>	error:
13:56:44	<lambdabot>	Unexpected do block in function application:
13:56:44	<lambdabot>	do sqrt do 2
13:56:51	<mauke>	then that would work
13:57:01	<merijn>	I'm not sure the benefits outway the effort my brain has to invest to solve them
13:57:24	<mauke>	you're braining it wrong
13:57:33	<merijn>	I don't wanna brain at all
13:57:56	<mauke>	hard to achieve while staying alive
13:58:00	<maerwald>	let's promote do-blocks to type level... you can only pass a monadic block that was defined via a do
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14:31:15	<mniip>	merijn, I'm actually writing a thing for that right now
14:31:45	<merijn>	mniip: Rendering imports? Or minimising reproducers?
14:32:04	<mniip>	well, a lot more general, but module import graph is one of the things it can do
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14:32:16	<merijn>	mniip: Even on code that doesn't compile? ;)
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14:32:26	<mniip>	that's harder
14:33:10	<mniip>	anyway there's a ModuleGraph in a HscEnv
14:33:38	<mniip>	via GHC plugins, earliest you can get your hands on one seems to be in a parsedResultAction
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14:48:18	<mniip>	merijn, https://bpa.st/VCXA
14:49:01	<merijn>	I'm down to about 30 modules the hard way
14:49:09	<merijn>	So the end is in sight
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16:05:51	<merijn>	Anyone with GHC 8.10 willing to donate a few minutes to see if I can crash your GHC? :p
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16:07:29	<mauke>	I only have 8.8.4
16:07:37	geekosaur	has ghcup installed ghc back to 8.10; what's up?
16:08:14	<merijn>	geekosaur: If you clone this and run "cabal build", does GHC blow up? https://github.com/merijn/ghc-crash-reproducer
16:08:48	<merijn>	It's now sufficiently minimal that I wanna be sure it blows up on other machines too, before I spend effort making it even smaller :p
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16:10:44	<geekosaur>	will take a while as I'd forgotten that I hadn't used 8.10.7 since moving to cabal HEAD so it's installing half the universe now
16:11:22	<VOID[m]>	Fellas I think I want to implement affine traversal optics, but I think I am missing a lot of theory to do that...... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/e51c52a118253656ec17b7c82cbca65a808494bd>)
16:12:11	<merijn>	geekosaur: Sure, no rush :)
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16:24:39	<geekosaur>	merijn, https://paste.tomsmeding.com/sGSzqp1R
16:25:05	<merijn>	ok, thanks!
16:25:14	<merijn>	Different symbol, but same basic blow up
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18:39:36	<dminuoso>	VOID[m]: Affine traversals arent really "needed" for anything. There's nothing that you can do with an affine traversal that you couldnt also do with a general traversal.
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18:40:13	<dminuoso>	They are just useful in expressing some property (namely that the traversal or fold) could at most target only one element, denoting that something like `preview` couldnt possibly throw away information
18:40:23	<dminuoso>	But that's the extend of it
18:41:03	<VOID[m]>	dminuoso: I figured I am missing basic knowledge around composition (Functors, Applicatives and such). Am reading Learn You a Haskell for Great Good
18:41:26	<dminuoso>	Well there's is some easy ways to gain intutions about how lenses and traversals work.
18:42:38	<dminuoso>	The main problem in building affine traversals in `lens` is that you would need a class `Pointed`, which you could make. However, they wouldn't cleanly degrade to traversals unless we made it a superclass of Applicative, which is not something you are likely to make happen ever.
18:43:06	<dminuoso>	(Especially since the use of a typeclass `Pointed` would pretty much be limited to just that, affine traversals. There isnt any other conceivable use for them in the entire Haskell world)
18:43:17	<mauke>	is Pointed = Applicative - Functor?
18:43:31	<dminuoso>	Pointed is just `pure`
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18:43:46	<dminuoso>	So its Applicative sans <*>
18:43:53	<mauke>	oh, so Applicative - Functor - (<*>)
18:44:03	<dminuoso>	Well, - Functor doesnt make sense
18:44:10	<dminuoso>	The ideal lattice you would ahve is:
18:44:35	<dminuoso>	class Apply f where (<*>) :: f (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
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18:44:46	<dminuoso>	class Pointed f where pure :: a -> f a
18:44:56	<dminuoso>	class (Apply f, Pointed f) => Applicative f
18:45:26	<dminuoso>	This way you would get automatic degradations to `traversals` in all scenarios
18:47:12	<dminuoso>	However, this introduces a different set of problems
18:48:10	<VOID[m]>	<dminuoso> "The main problem in building..." <- Te thing is I don't understand this sentence, which leads me to believe that I am attempting something above my understanding of Haskell XD
18:48:28	<VOID[m]>	s/Te/The/
18:49:02	<dminuoso>	VOID[m]: For what its worth, I did build what you're asking for myself recently
18:49:45	<dminuoso>	VOID[m]: However, you are absolutely correct that an affine traversal would concisely describe that accessor, so you seem to have a fairly good basic understanding of lens already.
18:50:01	<VOID[m]>	I just want an optic made from some path object that works for my tree, that lets me return Maybe when getting and either insert into tree or replace a node with setter (or ignore, if path makes no sence)
18:50:09	<dminuoso>	VOID[m]: But it wouldnt be needed, such an accessor could easily just be a Traversal with the implicit understanding it will only touch one element at most.
18:50:46	<dminuoso>	Or maybe a `Lense even
18:50:54	<dminuoso>	Which is less powerful, but would suffice
18:50:55	<VOID[m]>	dminuoso: I have okish basic understanding, but each tutorial I found has a place where it says "Now squit a bit - it's a Foldable with Applicative!" and suddenly code turns into hieroglyphs XD
18:50:56	<dminuoso>	Consider:
18:50:58	<dminuoso>	at :: Index m -> Lens' m (Maybe (IxValue m))
18:51:04	<dminuoso>	ix :: Index m -> Traversal' m (IxValue m)
18:51:14	<dminuoso>	(The difference here is that `at` gets to delete an element, `ix` does not)
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18:52:06	<VOID[m]>	dminuoso: god damn it
18:52:06	<VOID[m]>	I read somewhere, that Lens has to succeed
18:52:06	<VOID[m]>	I don't get how that works with `Maybe` ;_;
18:52:31	<dminuoso>	VOID[m]: Imagine something like:
18:52:42	<VOID[m]>	Also when I tried doing Lens with Maybe it told me that I have to accept Maybe as input to setter (probably because I was using simplified helpers somewhere?)
18:52:45	<dminuoso>	data User = User { _name :: Maybe Textt }
18:52:49	<VOID[m]>	dminuoso: Is it open source by any chance?
18:52:56	<dminuoso>	With a TH generated lens of `name :: Lens' User (Maybe Text)`
18:53:12	<dminuoso>	VOID[m]: And no, thats absolutely right.
18:53:55	VOID[m]	sent a hs code block: https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/88715e5af4c7aef14cc2044c63c6da47ddb4381c
18:54:07	<dminuoso>	foo & someMaybeLens .~ Just 1
18:54:09	<dminuoso>	foo & someMaybeLens .~ Nothing
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18:54:22	<dminuoso>	However, yuou can use the ?~ shorthand (which will automaically introduce the Just)
18:55:19	mauke	is impressed by the Matrix->IRC bridge
18:56:17	<VOID[m]>	mauke: As a Matrix user - the bridge is GREAT. Persistent history, many devices, modern UI. I just hope you IRC fellas see all of my messages correctly :P
18:56:30	<dminuoso>	Looks perfectly fine
18:56:47	<dminuoso>	Even with you writing more than libera allows, which automatically gets send into a paste snippet
18:57:23	<mauke>	it seems to translate targeted replies and self corrections in a perfectly natural fashion
18:57:40	<monochrom>	Nice.
18:57:48	<VOID[m]>	Damn
18:57:48	<VOID[m]>	That's nice
18:57:48	<VOID[m]>	One day I'll have to check out what I am actually sending XD
18:58:00	<dminuoso>	VOID[m]: Ill let you know what I do for my tree
18:58:22	<dminuoso>	data Tree k a = Node { treeNode :: a, treeChildren :: M.HashMap k (Tree k a) } deriving (Eq, Ord, Show, Foldable, Functor)
18:58:25	<VOID[m]>	dminuoso: your maybe example seems simple, but I don't know how to do the thing for my `getTree`
18:58:50	<dminuoso>	https://gist.github.com/dminuoso/f14ddbbc95a5978bed8bcff594cbf1fe
18:59:04	<dminuoso>	VOID[m]: ^- and this is the alterF that allows you to edit the tree
18:59:20	<dminuoso>	With some extra hooks for diagnostics that I require
18:59:29	<mauke>	VOID[m]: here's what I see: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/7yiOoIXk
18:59:55	<dminuoso>	That being said
19:00:07	<dminuoso>	There's some cool expression you could do with lens
19:00:42	<dminuoso>	All you need is just an Ixed (or even At) instance
19:00:55	<dminuoso>	Then you can just fold some [Key] into a Traversal
19:01:28	<dminuoso>	VOID[m]: Take my Tree as an immediate example (simply because it already works for that)
19:01:46	<dminuoso>	We already have an `(Eq k, Hashable k) => Ixed (HashMap k a)` instance
19:02:08	<VOID[m]>	mauke: I have mixed feelings about that code block...
19:02:22	<dminuoso>	Modulo the newtype, we can already write `ix "key"` to get a traversal one level deep.
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19:02:42	<dminuoso>	Now with [Text] you can just fold, `at` each element, and compose them together
19:02:44	<dminuoso>	Done!
19:03:08	<dminuoso>	Does that make any sense to you?
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19:03:40	<VOID[m]>	dminuoso: "fold some [Key] into a Traversal" I like your funny words magic man XD I'll have to return to this conversation after I read about composition more, for now folding, at, ixed are quite hard to comprehend... I used them, I managed to implement them a few times, but I don't really "get" them
19:03:52	<VOID[m]>	And when they get composed with each other it becomes VERY hard to follow for me
19:03:52	<dminuoso>	Okay let me slow down for a moment
19:04:02	<dminuoso>	% import qualified Data.Map as M
19:04:02	<yahb2>	<no output>
19:04:28	<dminuoso>	% let m = M.fromList [("foo", 1), ("bar", 2), ("quux", 3)]
19:04:28	<yahb2>	<no output>
19:04:32	<dminuoso>	:t m
19:04:33	<lambdabot>	Expr
19:04:34	<dminuoso>	% :t m
19:04:34	<yahb2>	m :: Num a => M.Map String a
19:04:38	<dminuoso>	VOID[m]: So far so good?
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19:04:41	<dminuoso>	% let m = M.fromList [("foo", 1), ("bar", 2), ("quux", 3 :: Int)]
19:04:41	<yahb2>	<no output>
19:04:43	<dminuoso>	% :t m
19:04:43	<yahb2>	m :: M.Map String Int
19:04:48	<dminuoso>	TO make it monomorphic, less confusion
19:05:28	<VOID[m]>	sure
19:05:29	<VOID[m]>	I get it so far
19:05:41	<dminuoso>	Now, because we have an `instance Ord k => Ixed (Map k a)` that means we can use `ix :: String -> Traversal' (M.Map String Int) Int`
19:05:51	<dminuoso>	Let's look at how that works
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19:06:13	<dminuoso>	% m ^.. ix "foo"
19:06:13	<yahb2>	<interactive>:16:3: error: ; Variable not in scope: (^..) :: M.Map String Int -> t0 -> t ; ; <interactive>:16:7: error: ; • Variable not in scope: ix :: String -> t0 ; • Perhaps you me...
19:06:20	<dminuoso>	% import Control.Lens.Fold
19:06:20	<yahb2>	<no location info>: error: ; Could not find module ‘Control.Lens.Fold’ ; It is not a module in the current program, or in any known package.
19:06:22	<dminuoso>	Uh
19:06:30	<dminuoso>	:t (^..)
19:06:31	<lambdabot>	s -> Getting (Endo [a]) s a -> [a]
19:06:36	<dminuoso>	Okay let me repeat it with lambdabot
19:06:41	<dminuoso>	@let import qualified Data.Map as M
19:06:42	<lambdabot>	Defined.
19:06:47	<dminuoso>	@let m = M.fromList [("foo", 1), ("bar", 2), ("quux", 3 :: Int)]
19:06:48	<lambdabot>	Defined.
19:06:51	<dminuoso>	@let myMap = M.fromList [("foo", 1), ("bar", 2), ("quux", 3 :: Int)]
19:06:52	<lambdabot>	Defined.
19:06:58	<dminuoso>	> myMap ^.. ix "foo"
19:07:00	<lambdabot>	[1]
19:07:03	<dminuoso>	VOID[m]: So far so good?
19:07:29	<VOID[m]>	list as output
19:07:31	<VOID[m]>	?
19:07:37	<dminuoso>	That's fine, we'll talk about that later
19:07:45	<VOID[m]>	Then yes
19:07:48	<dminuoso>	This is because `ix` is a traversal, and (^..) is just toListOf
19:07:54	<dminuoso>	(or ix produces a traversal, rather)
19:07:59	<dsal>	^? would also be fine here.
19:08:24	<VOID[m]>	Ok ok, makes sense
19:08:34	<dminuoso>	VOID[m]: Now what we'll do instead, is make a nested map
19:09:21	<dminuoso>	@let newtype Tree k a = Node { nodeValue :: a, children :: Map k (Tree k a) }
19:09:21	<lambdabot>	Parse failed: newtype declaration constructor must have exactly one parameter.
19:09:26	<dminuoso>	@let data Tree k a = Node { nodeValue :: a, children :: Map k (Tree k a) }
19:09:27	<lambdabot>	/sandbox/tmp/.L.hs:164:50: error:
19:09:27	<lambdabot>	Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘Map’
19:09:27	<lambdabot>	Perhaps you meant ‘M.Map’ (imported from Data.Map)
19:09:31	<dminuoso>	@let data Tree k a = Node { nodeValue :: a, children :: M.Map k (Tree k a) }
19:09:32	<lambdabot>	/sandbox/tmp/.L.hs:165:43: error:
19:09:32	<lambdabot>	Ambiguous occurrence ‘Tree’
19:09:32	<lambdabot>	It could refer to
19:09:40	<dminuoso>	@let data MyTree k a = Node { nodeValue :: a, children :: M.Map k (MyTree k a) }
19:09:41	<lambdabot>	Defined.
19:09:46	→	tromp joins (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
19:09:51	<dminuoso>	VOID[m]: So you see how this is a tree?
19:10:06	→	Alex_test joins (~al_test@178.34.161.14)
19:10:19	<VOID[m]>	Yes
19:10:38	<VOID[m]>	And keys in DB would be the same as crumbs in my tree, right?
19:10:44	<dminuoso>	Yes
19:10:46	<VOID[m]>	*keys in map
19:10:50	→	AlexZenon joins (~alzenon@178.34.161.14)
19:10:53	<VOID[m]>	great
19:11:58	<dminuoso>	@let type instance IxValue (MyTree k a) = a
19:12:00	<lambdabot>	Defined.
19:12:23	<dminuoso>	@let type instance Index (MyTree k a) = k
19:12:24	<lambdabot>	Defined.
19:12:42	<dminuoso>	These are just type family instances, think of them as just definitions for a type level function. This type family is used in Ixed.
19:13:07	<dminuoso>	Feel free to gloss over it (they just help Ixed understand what the Key and Value types of `MyTree k a` are
19:13:38	→	freeside joins (~mengwong@pd907d273.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
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19:14:08	<VOID[m]>	I won't say that I could write something like this myself, but I get the idea
19:16:50	<dminuoso>	gah I need to redo the above type due to more conflicts
19:17:03	<dminuoso>	@let data MyTree k a = Node { myTreeValue :: a, myTreeChildren :: M.Map k (MyTree k a) }
19:17:04	<lambdabot>	/sandbox/tmp/.L.hs:171:1: error:
19:17:04	<lambdabot>	Multiple declarations of ‘MyTree’
19:17:04	<lambdabot>	Declared at: /sandbox/tmp/.L.hs:164:1
19:17:07	<dminuoso>	@undef
19:17:07	<lambdabot>	Undefined.
19:17:09	<dminuoso>	@let data MyTree k a = Node { myTreeValue :: a, myTreeChildren :: M.Map k (MyTree k a) }
19:17:10	<lambdabot>	Defined.
19:17:12	<dminuoso>	@let type instance IxValue (MyTree k a) = a
19:17:13	<lambdabot>	Defined.
19:17:15	<dsal>	Yeah, blow it all up.
19:17:16	<dminuoso>	@let type instance Index (MyTree k a) = k
19:17:17	<lambdabot>	Defined.
19:17:25	<dsal>	(we all share the same lambdabot)
19:17:41	<dminuoso>	@let childrenLens = lens (\m -> myTreeChildren m) (\m v -> m{myTreeChildren = v}
19:17:41	<lambdabot>	Parse failed: Parse error: EOF
19:17:46	<dminuoso>	@let childrenLens = lens (\m -> myTreeChildren m) (\m v -> m{myTreeChildren = v}
19:17:46	<lambdabot>	Parse failed: Parse error: EOF
19:17:47	×	zer0bitz quits (~zer0bitz@196.244.192.60) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
19:17:49	<dminuoso>	@let childrenLens = lens (\m -> myTreeChildren m) (\m v -> m{myTreeChildren = v})
19:17:50	<lambdabot>	Defined.
19:18:03	<dminuoso>	VOID[m]: ^- here, can be TH generated, I just made it by hand. a lens for the children side.
19:18:11	×	merijn quits (~merijn@c-001-001-007.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
19:18:24	<dsal>	lambdabot can't TH
19:18:31	→	zer0bitz joins (~zer0bitz@196.244.192.60)
19:19:14	<dminuoso>	@let instance Ord k => Ixed (MyTree k a) where ix i = childrenLens . at i
19:19:15	<lambdabot>	/sandbox/tmp/.L.hs:168:16: error:
19:19:15	<lambdabot>	• Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type:
19:19:15	<lambdabot>	a ~ Maybe (MyTree k a)
19:19:21	<dminuoso>	Ah huh.
19:19:36	<dminuoso>	Maybe we do need to go through Plated here
19:20:10	×	freeside quits (~mengwong@pd907d273.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
19:20:18	<dminuoso>	Ah no, this is incompatible with the above type instance heh
19:20:29	<dminuoso>	@let type instance Index (MyTree k a) = MyTree k a
19:20:30	<lambdabot>	/sandbox/tmp/.L.hs:161:15: error:
19:20:30	<lambdabot>	Conflicting family instance declarations:
19:20:30	<lambdabot>	Index (MyTree k a) = k -- Defined at /sandbox/tmp/.L.hs:161:15
19:21:11	→	freeside joins (~mengwong@pd907d273.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
19:21:36	<monochrom>	Yikes you may have to @undefine and define everything all over again :( :)
19:21:52	<dminuoso>	lambdabot is getting spammed in query :)
19:22:36	<dminuoso>	@let instance Ord k => Ixed (MyTree1 k a) where ix i = childrenLens1 . at i
19:22:37	<lambdabot>	/sandbox/tmp/.L.hs:175:16: error:
19:22:37	<lambdabot>	• Couldn't match type ‘MyTree k a0’ with ‘MyTree1 k a’
19:22:37	<lambdabot>	Expected type: (IxValue (MyTree1 k a) -> f (IxValue (MyTree1 k a)))
19:23:18	<monochrom>	I wonder if you could merge into a looong single line @let { data MyTree = ... ; instance Foo ... ; type Bar = ... }
19:23:18	<VOID[m]>	I'll try to do it myself, I think I saw enough?
19:23:18	<VOID[m]>	I have some questions about the process though
19:23:46	<geekosaur>	just leave off the braces
19:23:47	<dsal>	Normal process is doing it in a file and :r -- but lambda bot doesn't support :r
19:24:03	<dminuoso>	@let instance Ord k => Ixed (MyTree1 k a) where ix i = __childrenLens1 . at i
19:24:04	<lambdabot>	/sandbox/tmp/.L.hs:177:16: error:
19:24:04	<lambdabot>	• Couldn't match type ‘MyTree1 k a’ with ‘Maybe (MyTree k a)’
19:24:04	<lambdabot>	Expected type: (IxValue (MyTree1 k a) -> f (IxValue (MyTree1 k a)))
19:24:16	<dminuoso>	Oh hah. Not again.
19:24:21	<monochrom>	@where playground
19:24:21	<lambdabot>	I know nothing about playground.
19:24:44	<geekosaur>	https://play-haskell.tomsmeding.com/
19:24:52	<VOID[m]>	I miss knowledge about composition
19:24:52	<VOID[m]>	I couldn't come up with using Ixed by myself
19:25:01	<VOID[m]>	I have to learn composition stuff
19:25:06	<dminuoso>	VOID[m]: Sorry Im messing up with slight typos. Im almost there. Hang tight
19:25:09	<dsal>	Oh wow. This is cool. I needed this yesterday.
19:25:25	<dminuoso>	@let data MyTree2 k a = Node { myTree2Value :: a, myTree1Children :: M.Map k (MyTree2 k a)
19:25:25	<lambdabot>	Parse failed: Parse error: EOF
19:25:27	<dminuoso>	@let data MyTree2 k a = Node { myTree2Value :: a, myTree1Children :: M.Map k (MyTree2 k a) }
19:25:28	<lambdabot>	/sandbox/tmp/.L.hs:176:20: error:
19:25:28	<lambdabot>	Multiple declarations of ‘Node’
19:25:28	<lambdabot>	Declared at: /sandbox/tmp/.L.hs:156:19
19:25:30	<monochrom>	Thanks. That. You may find it more usable when you need so many lines of definitions.
19:25:34	<dminuoso>	Heh
19:25:39	<dminuoso>	monochrom: does it have lens, though?
19:25:56	<dsal>	Could not find module ‘Control.Lens’
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19:26:12	<monochrom>	Hrm probably not.
19:26:42	<geekosaur>	figured. neither does yahb2 as far as I can tell
19:27:18	<monochrom>	I might just copy-paste the content of lens >:)
19:27:38	→	k8yun joins (~k8yun@user/k8yun)
19:27:50	<VOID[m]>	I don't get type instance Index (MyTree k a) = MyTree k a
19:27:51	<VOID[m]>	Isn't Index just the k?
19:28:01	<VOID[m]>	Or is this not what that means
19:28:43	<dminuoso>	VOID[m]: https://gist.github.com/dminuoso/45d3126e303ff90b111232320022b022 success, finally
19:29:08	<dminuoso>	So now we have a Tree, and we can build a traversal that looks one level using `at`
19:29:11	<geekosaur>	@where+ playground https://play-haskell.tomsmeding.com/
19:29:11	<lambdabot>	Good to know.
19:29:55	<monochrom>	Yeah should be type instance Index (MyTree4 k a) = k
19:30:02	<dsal>	@playground+ lens
19:30:02	<lambdabot>	Unknown command, try @list
19:30:34	<monochrom>	Ugh MyTree4 haha. "This is the 4th attempt"
19:30:35	<geekosaur>	wrong bot anyway, it'd be yahb2 if it worked at all
19:31:11	→	ballast joins (~ballast@cpe-104-32-238-223.socal.res.rr.com)
19:31:11	<dminuoso>	@let ats = appEndo . foldMap (Endo . at)
19:31:12	<lambdabot>	Defined.
19:31:15	<dminuoso>	:t ats
19:31:16	<dsal>	That's an awesome site anyway. I like the core button.
19:31:16	<lambdabot>	(Foldable t1, Functor f) => t1 () -> (Maybe t2 -> f (Maybe t2)) -> Maybe t2 -> f (Maybe t2)
19:31:23	<[exa]>	actuellement, can we put the playground into the topic?
19:31:41	<dminuoso>	Uh, where did that () come from?
19:32:02	<[exa]>	dminuoso: looks like default ()
19:32:10	<mauke>	:t foldMap
19:32:11	<lambdabot>	(Foldable t, Monoid m) => (a -> m) -> t a -> m
19:33:10	<mauke>	:t let ats x = (appEndo . foldMap (Endo . at)) x in ats
19:33:11	<monochrom>	I'm going to put it right after the downloads.haskell.org link.
19:33:11	<lambdabot>	(Foldable t1, Functor f) => t1 () -> (Maybe t2 -> f (Maybe t2)) -> Maybe t2 -> f (Maybe t2)
19:33:14	ChanServ	sets mode +o monochrom
19:33:37	<dminuoso>	Ah at is wrong anyway here
19:33:39	<dminuoso>	@let ixes''' = appEndo . foldMap (Endo . ix) :: At m => [Index m] -> Traversal' m (IxValue m)
19:33:40	<lambdabot>	/sandbox/tmp/.L.hs:202:31: error:
19:33:40	<lambdabot>	• Couldn't match type ‘m1’ with ‘IxValue m1’
19:33:40	<lambdabot>	‘m1’ is a rigid type variable bound by
19:33:57	monochrom	sets topic to "https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell \| Admin: #haskell-ops \| Offtopic: #haskell-offtopic \| https://downloads.haskell.org https://play-haskell.tomsmeding.com/ \| Paste code/errors: https://paste.tomsmeding.com \| Logs: https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/browse/lchaskell \| AoC Leaderboard: 43100-84040706"
19:34:07	×	zer0bitz quits (~zer0bitz@196.244.192.60) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
19:34:33	monochrom	sets mode -o monochrom
19:34:39	<dminuoso>	I gotta run, though
19:34:46	<monochrom>	Feel free to optimize it though, heh.
19:34:51	<dminuoso>	VOID[m]: Anyway, you can do it along this way
19:35:11	<dminuoso>	And you can upgrade to `At`, which expresses modifying whatever the optic points at.
19:35:45	→	zer0bitz joins (~zer0bitz@196.244.192.60)
19:36:00	<VOID[m]>	Do the docs have a tree with short descriptions maybe?
19:36:12	<dminuoso>	(Or you can just use `unsafeSingular` with whatever this produces and be done with it)
19:36:14	<VOID[m]>	How does one gain knowledge about stuff like "Ixed", "At" etc
19:36:21	×	zer0bitz quits (~zer0bitz@196.244.192.60) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
19:36:33	<dminuoso>	No, you are expected to just magically understand from the type signatures and the short examples
19:36:46	<monochrom>	I think the lens front page has a huge UML class hierarchy.
19:36:57	→	zer0bitz joins (~zer0bitz@196.244.192.60)
19:37:22	<ballast>	I've reached a point in my application where I've put an auxiliary function into my state data type that isn't meaningfully a part of the state, i.e. it never changes. Is it time to use a ReaderT or is it OK to just let it kick around as part of the state?
19:38:08	×	califax quits (~califax@user/califx) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
19:38:18	<monochrom>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lens and scroll down
19:38:51	<monochrom>	Oh, https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lens#readme
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19:39:49	→	melonai joins (~mel@rnrd.eu)
19:39:52	<VOID[m]>	And you se Ixed on that graph?
19:39:59	<monochrom>	No.
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19:40:49	<VOID[m]>	I am trying to get Ixed for my type, but how am I supposed to implement something that has "Minimal complete definition: Nothing"
19:40:49	<VOID[m]>	I know enough to copy and modify, not enough to actually implement
19:40:49	<VOID[m]>	Gotta get back to books...
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19:42:27	<[exa]>	VOID[m]: sadly the common advanced lens tutorials simply let you reinvent the whole thing and then obviously you kinda get it
19:43:17	→	adium joins (adium@user/adium)
19:43:59	<monochrom>	Egomaniac opinion: The lens world suffers poor doc because I haven't become interested. >:)
19:44:00	×	zer0bitz quits (~zer0bitz@196.244.192.60) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
19:44:16	<dminuoso>	VOID[m]: Well, Ixed is not a part of that hierarchy
19:44:25	<dminuoso>	Ixed is a class of traversals
19:44:30	→	merijn joins (~merijn@c-001-002-026.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl)
19:44:43	<dminuoso>	The hierarchy denotes relationships of types of optics and how they can degrade
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19:44:49	<dminuoso>	And how they can be composed
19:44:54	<dminuoso>	optics is a lot stronger in that respect
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19:45:29	<[exa]>	VOID[m]: but the type of `ix` should be kinda guiding: `Index m -> Traversal' m (IxValue m)`... you just take the index and convert it to a traversal through the corresponding value (if it's there)
19:45:52	→	zer0bitz joins (~zer0bitz@196.244.192.60)
19:47:34	<EvanR>	ballast, there's nothing fundamentally wrong with having something in your state that never changes. If it's already like a big record of stuff
19:48:16	<[exa]>	VOID[m]: and the traversal you can make using the normal lens machinery, e.g. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lens-5.2/docs/Control-Lens-Combinators.html#v:traversal which is just a slightly more generic version of the usual `lens` that makes a lens from a getter and a setter
19:48:22	<EvanR>	if there is something that really really will never change you could do ReaderT and access it easier though
19:48:33	<[exa]>	oh noes I used "is just a", apologies.
19:48:49	<EvanR>	[exa], what's the problem?!?!
19:49:10	→	gmg joins (~user@user/gehmehgeh)
19:49:14	<ballast>	EvanR: yeah it is a big record.
19:49:18	<[exa]>	I hate tutorials that say "you see, this is just a [insert a term from page 9478 of author's fav category theory book here]"
19:49:47	<[exa]>	the just is plain out condescending if you read it as a newbie
19:50:37	<ballast>	I realize though that since I have `MyState a` and my function is `a -> Foo` I could also make a typeclass `HasFoo` but not sure if that's better or worse than the other options.
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19:51:14	<VOID[m]>	I just want an Optic made from `(a -> Maybe b)` and `(b -> a)` ;_;
19:51:23	<ballast>	Then I'd write `statefulFn :: HasFoo a => MyState a -> MyState a`
19:51:34	<[exa]>	VOID[m]: that sounds like a prism
19:51:52	<VOID[m]>	Prism has to do the re-smth that creates a Tree, no?
19:51:58	<EvanR>	ballast, that just seems suspiciously like overengineering or "not gonna need it" territory. But who knows
19:52:27	<monochrom>	I am OK with "just a $FOO", when the audience is familar with $FOO.
19:52:29	<[exa]>	VOID[m]: prism is a lens for 1 element that might be missing (I'd say precisely your case)
19:52:41	<EvanR>	I try to keep things at a basic level of language features until a critical 13.7 eV necessity appears to require something more fancy
19:52:51	<[exa]>	VOID[m]: oh look, there's your function: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lens-5.2/docs/Control-Lens-Combinators.html#v:prism-39-
19:52:52	<ballast>	EvanR: Yeah I mean I've already resisted using a state monad to KISS...
19:53:19	<VOID[m]>	> A Prism l is a Traversal that can also be turned around with re to obtain a Getter in the opposite direction
19:53:21	<lambdabot>	<hint>:1:84: error: parse error on input ‘in’
19:53:33	<VOID[m]>	This sounds like traversal should be easier, and I don't want the re
19:53:43	<[exa]>	VOID[m]: (you may assume the `b` and `a` in the signature there ^ are the same)
19:54:10	<ballast>	EvanR: Not sure what "critical 13.7 eV necessity" means though
19:54:25	<EvanR>	ground state haskell vs excited state haskell
19:54:30	<[exa]>	VOID[m]: that's a fancy way of saying that the prism points to a single thing (to invert it, you need uniqueness)
19:54:51	<EvanR>	nevermind
19:54:56	<VOID[m]>	As I understand it, a Prism requires the re, no?
19:55:04	<monochrom>	Heh EvanR I get your joke, no worries!
19:55:06	<ballast>	Ah... I missed that joke
19:55:41	<EvanR>	ballast, HasFoo is apparently a popular way to make "real" apps with many monads coexisting but that share some features
19:55:41	<monochrom>	Although I think you want 13.7 MeV or even GeV. Right? 13.7 eV is very small.
19:56:00	<[exa]>	VOID[m]: not really, `re` is derived from the 2 functions (partial getter and setter) that you give to `prism`
19:56:54	<ballast>	Also looking at the linked comment about prisms, I must admit that I don't know how to feel about `isn't` being a function name
19:57:09	<[exa]>	VOID[m]: there's a lens tutorial that uses prisms as a kinda generalized first-class patternmatches. You get for example `left_` that you can use to check if the Either is `Left something`, and if you reverse it with `re`, you can actually construct the `Left something` from a value
19:57:26	<EvanR>	it's also wrong, 13.7 eV is how much it costs to totally break up hydrogen as opposed to go up 1 energy level
19:57:42	<VOID[m]>	Thank you all very much
19:57:42	<VOID[m]>	I got a lot of great advice
19:57:42	<VOID[m]>	I'll read more into Ixed stuff, and will try the prism' solution
19:57:42	<VOID[m]>	Y'all were great <3
19:58:10	<EvanR>	ballast, acme-don't package is great
19:58:18	<EvanR>	it enables don't notation
19:58:51	<[exa]>	VOID[m]: btw for practical software engineering reasons, you might want to start with writing some trivial Ixed instance (like an ix for a list or Identity or so)
19:59:03	<ballast>	haha, I like that though
19:59:16	<[exa]>	VOID[m]: getting custom types into the mix right from the start tends to generate headache
19:59:40	<[exa]>	anyway yeah, good luck. :]
20:00:00	<VOID[m]>	So I should try implementing Ixed for something like a list, got it
20:00:00	<VOID[m]>	Thank you very much for tips <3
20:00:54	<mauke>	use Acme::Don't; don't { print "hi\n"; } while (1 == 1); # I think it works better in perl
20:02:29	<EvanR>	I find the asymmetry a bit annoying though
20:02:34	<EvanR>	in the haskell version
20:02:52	<EvanR>	returns () instead of a
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20:07:04	ub	is now known as ubert
20:10:06	<jackdk>	It's the best we can do, but at least it now supports `-XApplicativeDo` (`-XApplicativeDont`?)
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20:14:00	<dsal>	At least there's no `-XApplicativeTry`
20:14:52	<mauke>	don't do something you'll regret -- potentially valid haskell code
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20:24:56	<mniip>	is there a way to enable a ghc plugin using only the --ghc-options interface of stack/cabal?
20:25:13	<mniip>	the problem is of course that the plugin resides in a package that is not in the dependencies list
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20:32:18	<mniip>	apparently not
20:33:17	<geekosaur>	does -package not work?
20:33:39	<geekosaur>	hm, probably not because cabal/stack won't expose it
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20:35:59	<mniip>	yup
20:36:32	<mniip>	https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/9.4.2/docs/users_guide/extending_ghc.html#:~:text=At%20the%20moment%2C%20the%20only%20way%20to%20specify%20a%20dependency%20on%20a%20plugin
20:37:39	<EvanR>	unsprisingly a dumbass recursive descent version of the day 13 parser is slightly bigger than a megaparsec parser. Surprisingly a dumbass tokenizer + parser on tokens is smaller than both xD
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20:42:11	<mniip>	with 50-odd packages manually editing cabal files does not seem fun
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20:48:29	<EvanR>	https://paste.tomsmeding.com/HlaE2uLj 😎
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20:52:19	<SrPx>	Hello! Is anyone here familiar with Cardano? I'm trying to compile and run a "Hello, world" offline using Plutus, but I can't find how. Is that possible?
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21:18:22	<SrPx>	hmm in case anyone does: https://cardano.stackexchange.com/questions/9625/how-to-run-a-simple-fib-function-offline
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21:37:43	<xerox>	is it possible to use OverloadedLists through read, or is it just for source contents
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21:38:05	<mniip>	that's a weird question. What do you mean?
21:38:39	<geekosaur>	source contents. read can't know about extensions and its behavior is fixed when the base library os built
21:38:40	<xerox>	just had a strange idea to parse today's aoc input
21:38:41	<geekosaur>	*is
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21:39:39	<xerox>	data P = N Int \| L [P] deriving (Read,Show); instance Num P where fromInteger = N . fromInteger; instance IsList P where type Item P = P; fromList = L
21:39:44	<geekosaur>	this does not preclude running the result through fromList
21:40:16	<geekosaur>	it just means the runtime won't do so automatically
21:40:43	<xerox>	geekosaur: how do you do it, I'm at a loss
21:40:56	<geekosaur>	eh? fromList . read
21:41:43	<geekosaur>	if it's more complex than that then IsList is probably the wrong answer anyway
21:43:46	<xerox>	geekosaur: https://pastebin.com/raw/1jmxEEwy
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21:44:37	<geekosaur>	that wasn't going to work even with IsList, the list still has to have the same type
21:45:12	<xerox>	but it does work with IsList, it's the first example
21:45:15	<geekosaur>	hm, I guess you were hoping the inner lists would get promoted to Ps. no, read will never do that oribably
21:45:24	<geekosaur>	*probably
21:45:36	<geekosaur>	for the same reason we're unlikely to get a Unicode Show instance
21:46:01	<geekosaur>	changing the behavior of those at runtime would cause all sorts of problems
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21:49:27	<mauke>	just run your input through perl -pe 's/\b(?=\d)/N /g; s/\[/L [/g'
21:50:50	<xerox>	yeah :)
21:50:59	<mauke>	alternatively, define a custom Read instance
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21:51:16	<mauke>	but IsList won't help here
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21:53:02	<EvanR>	"just use json lol"
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21:54:32	<mauke>	hmm. this happens to be PDN (perl data notation)
21:54:43	<mauke>	my $input = do "./input"; # literally run it as perl code, lol
21:55:27	<mauke>	that suggests you might be able to to shenanigans with CPP and #include
21:55:35	<mauke>	s/to to/to do/
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21:59:30	<xerox>	interesting idea
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22:02:09	<ballast>	getting this error when I try to use `lens` from microlens: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/3FKZuSbY . Am I missing an extension? I'm confused why it's asking for a specific `f` when the type of `Lens` is `forall f.`.
22:02:37	<ballast>	(error message has been edited to slim down the definitions/types)
22:03:22	<jackdk>	Can you paste a bit more context?
22:04:05	<mauke>	does myState have a type signature in your code?
22:04:28	<ballast>	mauke: no, I'll add ScopedTypeVariables and try adding one
22:04:52	<ballast>	jackdk: it's a bit messy with the context but I can do that if adding a signature doesn't work
22:05:21	<jackdk>	Yeah you'll need a type signature
22:06:15	<ballast>	I'm passing it to a function that expects a `Lens' s (CalendarState a)` , how come it won't unify?
22:06:31	<ballast>	Adding the signature though and checking
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22:07:38	<ballast>	OK I've learned my lesson. I won't put my lens definitions in where clauses. Thanks mauke and jackdk
22:07:57	<[exa]>	ballast: the let-bindings can't unify "back" from the uses
22:08:15	<[exa]>	(there's the forall in the way that prevents it)
22:08:57	<ballast>	[exa]: bet it would make sense if I looked at the unification rules, I assume I'm asking for something undecidable
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22:09:24	<ballast>	Also it's curious that GHC suggests to add RankNTypes instead of Rank2Types when I use the type `type Lens s t a b = forall f. -- etc.`
22:09:40	<ballast>	Ah. I see Rank2Types is obsolete, never mind.
22:09:42	<jackdk>	Rank2Types is obsolete
22:09:43	<jackdk>	yeah
22:09:55	<ballast>	So many of my questions are answered by just typing the name of the thing into google ha
22:09:57	<mauke>	would 'myState x = lens getMy setMy x' fix it?
22:09:58	<dsal>	Rank3Types ought to be enough for anybody.
22:10:02	<mauke>	or is the forall the issue?
22:10:03	<[exa]>	ballast: actually not undecidable, but the hindley-milner and all similar systems precisely aim to prevent the "use" types from leaking to let-definitions
22:10:47	<[exa]>	ballast: if you didn't read about that, consider someone happily defining `id x = x` and going `id "asd"` and `id 5` in 2 parts of the program.
22:11:29	<ballast>	[exa]: my intuition for type inference when it comes to polymorphism is lacking to say the least. I usually need to write the judgements out by hands to be sure I understand what's going on.
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22:12:39	<ballast>	mauke: that works it seems
22:12:40	<[exa]>	btw what you got there looked a bit like monomorphism restriction to me, but hard to say without seeing the rest of the program
22:13:02	<[exa]>	ah yes, mauke confirmed. :]
22:13:04	<mauke>	ballast: if it works with an explicit parameter but not without, then you got bitten by the monomorphism restriction
22:13:07	<ballast>	mauke: Then HLS says to eta reduce and it fails to type check haha
22:13:22	<mauke>	which is turnoffable
22:13:39	<ballast>	is this a like "here be dragons" kind of disable-able feature?
22:13:50	<mauke>	not really dragons, no
22:14:27	<mauke>	it just might make some "constants" more polymorphic than you expect, so it might result in less efficient code
22:15:25	<[exa]>	ballast: in very specific cases it can do very specific ugly things with thunks, iirc something like that you'd expect the value `x=something` to be memoized but it can't be memoized because it's lacking the invisible typeclass argument
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22:16:04	<monochrom>	I am still blissfully ignorant about how HLS gives hlint recommendations, and hlint recommendations are of questionable applicability.
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22:16:36	<monochrom>	Or more pointedly, how most beginners don't know that legacy.
22:16:42	<ballast>	I think I'll stick to keeping it on then, especially since it's not too ugly to just inline my use of `lens`
22:16:57	<Lycurgus>	applicability or worth?
22:17:06	<monochrom>	perhaps both
22:17:30	<monochrom>	perhaps value too
22:17:45	<monochrom>	perhaps benefit too
22:17:48	<monochrom>	should I go on?
22:18:23	<Lycurgus>	prolly not
22:18:26	<mauke>	https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/haskell2010/haskellch4.html#x10-930004.5.5
22:18:28	<monochrom>	figured
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