Logs on 2022-12-21 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:12:34	<EvanR>	hpc, what... clojure originated in 2005, long after javascript
00:13:31	<EvanR>	s/clojure/scheme/ might be less apocryphal
00:14:19	<jean-paul[m]>	What's this syntax called? https://github.com/reflex-frp/reflex-native/blob/develop/reflex-native/src/Reflex/Native.hs#L60-L74
00:14:47	<jean-paul[m]>	(so I can google it and learn what it means and how to benefit from the consequences)
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00:18:15	<EvanR>	ConstraintKinds
00:18:36	<mauke>	jean-paul[m]: https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/constraint_kind.html
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00:24:21	<hpc>	omg, i did mean scheme
00:24:36	<hpc>	it's been a long day for me :P
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00:33:24	<Clinton[m]>	hey I've been thinking about error handling, and basically I've got this problem.
00:33:24	<Clinton[m]>	Lets say I've got a bunch of functions, but in the end the top level function can throw say, four different errors. I want to "catch" one of them, and rethrow the remaining three. By "throw" here I mean in the pure sense, as in just return the left of an either or something (this will be happening in a monad which has IO but I don't want to throw IO exceptions directly).
00:33:24	<Clinton[m]>	Any articles I can read on how to achieve this?
00:34:43	<Clinton[m]>	Like I could return a big sum type, but then I've got two problems. 1. I have to have a common error type thoughout my program, without lots of boilerplate to convert smaller sum types to bigger ones, and 2 without lots of boilerplate there's no way to extract one element out of a sum type and make a smaller one.
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00:38:00	<hpc>	so when you say "smaller sum types", with the design you want you'd be able to write some sort of catchSomeError :: MightBeFourErrors a -> ??? -> MightBeThreeErrors a?
00:39:02	<Clinton[m]>	Roughly speaking yes.
00:39:13	<hpc>	hmm
00:40:05	<hpc>	is there any pattern to the errors you might be able to use to avoid writing the full powerset of types?
00:40:25	<hpc>	like are the errors in a logical sequence like "file doesn't exist" -> "can't open file" -> "can't read file"
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00:40:47	<jean-paul[m]>	mauke: thanks
00:40:48	<Clinton[m]>	hpc: Like I might just handle an error by throwing a 500 if my monad is a web handler for example
00:40:48	<Clinton[m]>	Or I might be able to try something else, say a different parse (which might throw a different error)
00:41:22	<Clinton[m]>	hpc: yeah, but then it forces a particular stack. One doesn't need to do this with say, checked exceptions in Java.
00:42:10	<Clinton[m]>	hpc: the compiler just keeps track of what's caught and what's thrown and adds/subtracts them from the list of exceptions
00:42:58	<hpc>	yeah, checked exceptions was the first thing i thought of from your problem
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00:43:22	<hpc>	if you don't mind using a bunch of language extensions, you can do something kind of like it
00:43:48	<hpc>	you'd make a CheckedExceptions type of some sort that takes a type-level list of things it needs to eventually check
00:43:57	<hpc>	and then when that list is [] you're also able to get the final value out of it
00:44:16	<hpc>	but i am too sleepy right now to write such code :P
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00:44:43	<Clinton[m]>	hpc: yeah, I was worried that was the way I'd have to go... have things like `delete` out of a type level list by traversing it...
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00:46:31	<Clinton[m]>	hpc: that's why I was trying to lean towards constraints, because they're unordered, whereas lists are well, ordered. And I believe anything at the type level is ordered, because type equality is based on their construction order, i.e. `((a, b), c)` is different to `(a, (b, c))` whereas `((C a, C b), C c)` is the same as `(C a, (C b, C c))`.
00:47:39	<hpc>	you still need something else on the right of the (=>) that's (Class1 a) but not (Class2 a) to differentiate
00:48:18	<hpc>	and you're back to writing your powerset, but at least they don't need data constructors
00:48:43	<hpc>	or maybe they do, or you need some goofy type family thing
00:49:10	<Clinton[m]>	hpc: I don't know what you mean by this
00:49:14	<hpc>	personally i would just leave everything in (MightBeFourErrors a) and live with it
00:49:53	<hpc>	Clinton[m]: so you'd have data A deriving ErrorA; data B deriving ErrorB; data AB deriving (ErrorA, ErrorB); ...
00:50:14	<hpc>	but then you need some way to know that when you write catchA, AB maps to B, ABC maps to BC, etc
00:52:23	<hpc>	this sort of thing happens a lot when you try to use type classes for something they're not really suited for :(
00:52:35	<Clinton[m]>	hpc: I have tried this:... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/2045ffaecb06f806ed76e2e17db7e0b3b289c05a>)
00:53:05	<Clinton[m]>	s/appropriate/appropriates/
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00:56:34	<hpc>	i think just have the one type and treat it like big Either
00:57:10	<jackdk>	Clinton[m]: You will probably rediscover most of Data Types a la Carte and/or one of several designs for implementing "open unions" aka "variants". I have never found a satisfactory answer to this question.
00:57:37	<hpc>	this feels like too much work at the type level for not much gain at the value level
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02:50:48	<EvanR>	Clinton[m], your problem is like the posterchild application for extensible variants, which are like dual to extensible records
02:51:18	<EvanR>	hashtag beyond haskell
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04:36:48	<Guest49>	Hi, I am having difficulty in understanding functors, monoids, monads, and other stuff. Can anyone suggest any good resources?
04:37:28	<Guest49>	Or any learning method which I should try?
04:44:47	<Guest49>	Hi
04:44:52	<Guest49>	Is anyone online?
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04:57:24	<EvanR>	There's the typeclassopedia covering a lot of those topic at once
04:59:41	<EvanR>	a hot take on Functor is "types that are mappable" (as in the map function), monoids are types that are fusable, monads are functors that are "flattenable" (as in the concat function [[a]] -> [a])
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05:28:22	<iqubic>	EvanR: How you flatten a Parser?
05:28:52	<EvanR>	yeah what does join do on a Parser (Parser X)
05:30:08	<iqubic>	I assume it runs the outer parser, uses bind to get access to the inner parser and then runs that afterwards, in sequence.
05:30:59	<EvanR>	thing is bind should be able to be implemented using join, so for any monad join can be defined standalone
05:31:14	<EvanR>	then bind is defined using join and fmap
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05:31:30	<iqubic>	Yeah... I'm not sure how you do a standalone join.
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05:35:07	<EvanR>	the flattened Parser X runs the given parser to either fail or produce another parser, which is then used on the rest of the stream
05:36:06	<EvanR>	if there may be multiple results, then you might have to gather the results of continuing in multiple universes
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05:47:05	<Guest49>	Okay thanks
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07:38:57	<iqubic>	Are there Haskell bindings to z3, or similar SMT solvers?
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07:42:07	<int-e>	there's a z3 package at least
07:43:50	<iqubic>	Basically I have a program that generates a mathematical equation like x + 3x = 45 or something similar. I want to solve for x.
07:44:35	<iqubic>	But the actual equations are many orders of magnitudes more complex. But still basically linear in nature.
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07:46:42	<davean>	ou SURE you want Z3? not a linear algebra or linear programming library?
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07:47:55	<int-e>	Haha, https://hackage.haskell.org/package/sbv-9.0/docs/Documentation-SBV-Examples-Puzzles-AOC_2021_24.html
07:48:27	<int-e>	(sbv is probably the most elaborate effort in that direction. I don't know how hard it is to get it to work.)
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07:49:53	<mauke>	nice
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07:54:20	<davean>	I never got it to reflect functions I could also use as Haskell functions properly :( I should try again.
07:54:36	<davean>	if you aren't playing stupid games for stupider prizes its been quite nice
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09:56:23	<thongpv>	How can I define a Poset (partial ordered set) as an instance of Control.Category?
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10:36:58	<jackdk>	What do you intend to do with that instance? That is, what are the elements of your poset?
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11:01:40	<thongpv>	I just try to implement that CT example in Haskell. It's special because arrow in that CT is not function but the less than relation. For ur 2nd question, I think obj in that category are pair of element a, b, c ∈ A. Morphirsm are pair of those object, like `newtype Poset a b = Poset a b`, so each `Poset` value represent a <= b. Composition is easy to define, (.) :: Poset b c -> Poset a b -> Poset a c. However, I can't thin
11:01:41	<thongpv>	k of an impl for `id`, since `id` would have type `id :: Poset a a`
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11:06:00	<thongpv>	The `Poset` type need to take two type parameter because Category kind is: Category :: (k -> k -> *) -> Constraint, so I think I need to add constraint on (.) :: (a ~ b) => ....
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16:05:22	←	zns parts (~zns@user/zns) ()
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16:08:26	<cheater>	hello
16:08:41	<cheater>	is anyone hiring? (dm)
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16:47:00	<[exa]>	cheater: wishful
16:47:56	<cheater>	[exa]: thanks. what's your relation to them?
16:48:42	<[exa]>	I meant "wishful thinking" not "Wishful company is hiring" sorry. :D
16:48:51	<cheater>	:/
16:48:57	<[exa]>	but yeah, :/
16:49:31	<cheater>	i'm just disappointed by the trolling, that's all
16:50:04	<[exa]>	I didn't try to troll :/
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16:58:40	<maerwald>	how do you debug why a haskell binary gets killed on macOS
16:59:00	<cheater>	strace
16:59:09	<dsal>	maerwald: It'll leave a pretty detailed crash dump
16:59:37	<dsal>	Open Console.app and see if the crash report helps
17:01:25	<maerwald>	what is Console.app?
17:01:35	<cheater>	the terminal
17:02:05	<maerwald>	not sure this information is useful
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17:05:01	<maerwald>	apparently... if you curl a binary and cp it... mac will kill it
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17:05:08	<maerwald>	if you curl it and move it, it's fine
17:05:50	<int-e>	there's a lot of context here
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17:07:30	<maerwald>	why does Apple hate developers?
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17:10:50	<chreekat>	<maerwald> "apparently... if you curl a..." <- Ha
17:10:56	<int-e>	It's not hate, I think, it's indifference.
17:12:18	<maerwald>	A new great cabal-cache version was released
17:12:39	<maerwald>	we fixed some concurrency bugs
17:13:30	<maerwald>	(my hidden plan to deprecate nix...)
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17:29:21	<dsal>	Console.app is an application on the mac that displays logs and crash reports.
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17:37:01	<maerwald[m]>	dsal: a GUI app?
17:37:42	<dsal>	Yeah. Though it's just showing you files that appear in various places.
17:38:01	<maerwald[m]>	I'm not in GUI, I'm in a tmate session
17:38:23	<maerwald[m]>	But it's fixed by doing mv instead of cp
17:38:33	<maerwald[m]>	Some insanity wrt signature cache
17:38:57	<dsal>	~/Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports
17:40:35	<madnight>	Is it possible to construct a contravariant Functor instance for all Functors instances by flipping the arrows, from (a -> b) -> f a -> f b to (a -> b) -> f b -> f a? If thats not possible why?
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17:42:20	<monochrom>	Is it possible for even (a -> b) -> Identity b -> Identity a ?
17:42:27	<geekosaur>	how could it be possible? you'd have to manufacture an a
17:42:49	<geekosaur>	but you only have something that can manufacture a b
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17:45:15	<monochrom>	Meta comment: A useful thinking skill is whenever you have a generalized idea you first ask yourself about a trivial concrete example.
17:45:49	<monochrom>	Given that 99.99% of grand ideas are wrong, usually you will discover simple counterexamples such as mine in no time.
17:46:59	<maerwald[m]>	monochrom: I have an idea of a world without mac
17:47:17	<monochrom>	:)
17:47:29	<maerwald[m]>	Example: imagine there was no half assed toolchain
17:47:53	<monochrom>	But that is not a very grand generalized idea. The grand generalized version is: I have an idea of a world without OSes at all. >:)
17:48:14	<maerwald[m]>	It's called unix
17:48:18	<monochrom>	haha
17:48:21	<maerwald[m]>	But today people still don't get it
17:49:16	<maerwald[m]>	We live in the world of "integration" now
17:49:48	<maerwald[m]>	Because people gave up on designing grand ideas.
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17:54:41	<madnight>	geekosaur: I thought I can put the a in a -> b into negative position instead of positive position like in a normal Functor.
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18:03:28	<geekosaur>	I'm not understanding what you're saying. can you show how you'd do that for monochrom's example?
18:05:00	<phileasfogg>	good evening, I'm still on implementing the bra-ket notation, trying to take the easy path (probably). Do you think this makes sense?
18:05:03	<phileasfogg>	https://paste.tomsmeding.com/DAqNbK7O
18:05:53	<phileasfogg>	I admit, I'm still a beginner
18:06:54	<phileasfogg>	the thing is, I'm still not sure to how distinguish the row/col vector, using the linear library.
18:07:03	<phileasfogg>	*how to
18:07:04	<madnight>	monochrom: for Idenity I would try the following:
18:07:08	<madnight>	instance Contravariant f => Contravariant (Identity f) where
18:07:13	<madnight>	contramap f = identity . contramap f . runIdentity
18:09:11	<phileasfogg>	ignore the last line, that supossed to be <psi\|psi> type of thing.
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18:16:54	<geekosaur>	madnight, I suspect that's wrong. but all you've done is recursed on the contramap. What's your base case look like?
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18:21:06	<madnight>	geekosaur: Hmm, I adapted this code here https://hackage.haskell.org/package/contravariant-1.4/docs/src/Data.Functor.Contravariant.html#line-208 maybe you could explain this one to me?
18:22:51	<c_wraith>	madnight: at some level, the root difference is the different kinds of Identity and MaybeT
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18:27:59	<madnight>	c_wraith: sure, that's what the compiler is telling me, but it doesn't give me good intuiton for why there is no Contravariant Identity Functor with simply arrows reversed, so if someone could explain it to me in other terms than "kinds mismatch" I would be very thankful
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18:34:04	<EvanR>	Contravariant is for the same sorts of types that Functor is for
18:34:14	<EvanR>	you can't make a Functor out of a Identity f either
18:34:44	<EvanR>	Identity is a Functor not Identity f
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18:38:54	<EvanR>	the kinds kind of explains it in the same way that it's not surprising that numbers can't be used where functions are expected, or a matrix can't be used where numbers are expected
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18:40:59	geekosaur	finishes looking at the link and is now only confused…
18:43:05	<EvanR>	IdentityT f is another story
18:44:16	<c_wraith>	please tell me IdentityT isn't real
18:44:32	<EvanR>	lol
18:44:43	<EvanR>	Identity = IdentityT Identity
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18:46:51	<mauke>	madnight: I'm on the other side of the wall. I don't understand why there would be a contravariant identity functor. can you explain why you think there should be?
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18:47:56	<madnight>	mauke: https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/contravariant+functor A contravariant functor is like a functor but it reverses the directions of the morphisms. (Between groupoids, contravariant functors are essentially the same as functors.)
18:48:34	<mauke>	that sounds like category theory
18:48:37	<mauke>	I only know haskell
18:48:46	<madnight>	mauke: I'm following this idea for Haskell, by trying to reverse the directions of morphisms (reverse the arrows in Haskell)
18:49:03	<EvanR>	no, no, morphisms are functions and arrows are function types
18:49:20	<c_wraith>	Haskell classes don't capture the entirety of the category theory they're named after
18:49:31	<EvanR>	the arrow gets reversed at the type level
18:50:28	<mauke>	madnight: ok, I see it's talking about an opposite category C^op
18:50:38	<mauke>	madnight: does such a thing exist, particularly in haskell types?
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18:51:29	<EvanR>	it's the same category but all the function types are backwards
18:51:31	<madnight>	mauke: Well it's not really well formulated but there is Hask the category of Haskell types and functions.
18:51:41	<mauke>	I mean, morphisms are basically functions in Hask, right?
18:51:49	<madnight>	mauke: yes
18:51:54	<geekosaur>	haskell functions can't be reversed, though
18:52:00	<mauke>	so to construct Hask^op you'd have to turn every function A -> B into a function of type B -> A
18:52:05	<mauke>	which is impossible
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18:52:10	<geekosaur>	(consider `const ()`
18:52:11	<geekosaur>	)
18:52:21	<EvanR>	the morphisms of the opposite category are the same morphisms as the original category
18:52:52	<EvanR>	e.g. chr :: Int -> Chr is in Hask op, but it goes the other way Chr -> Int
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18:55:35	<madnight>	and (Hask^op)^op = Hask
18:55:46	mauke	considers absurd :: Void -> a
18:56:05	<EvanR>	to comprehend polymorphic functions, you could image a separate morphism for each a
18:56:36	<mauke>	yeah, but absurd^op would be able to construct values of type Void, no?
18:56:52	<EvanR>	no
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18:57:35	<EvanR>	it's the same function but the types are read backwards to make all the jargon shenanigans work out
18:57:49	<EvanR>	such as, a contravariant functor is just a functor in the opposite category what's the problem
18:58:30	<mauke>	if you're just playing with labels, you can't actually implement it within haskell, though
18:58:55	<EvanR>	the Contravariant class effectively gets you the same thing but swapping the types
18:59:00	<EvanR>	by*
18:59:35	<EvanR>	works great!
19:00:06	<geekosaur>	so (b -> a) in Hask^op is the same as (a -> b) in Hask, just written "backwards"?
19:00:28	<geekosaur>	I think you'd have trouble representing that in Haskell
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19:00:59	<madnight>	geekosaur: wait, whats so hard about reversing arrows?
19:01:02	<mauke>	the Contravariant class doesn't do all the Hask^op stuff from what I can tell
19:01:07	<EvanR>	chr :: Int -> Char is the same as chr' :: Char -> Int in hask op, sometimes written Int <- Char lol
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19:01:22	<EvanR>	"all the Hask^op" stuff?
19:01:35	<mauke>	yes, universally reversing arrows and stuff
19:01:54	<EvanR>	it's a reversal of the types
19:02:13	<EvanR>	there's no sense in which the morphisms whatever they are change
19:02:28	<EvanR>	C and C^op have "the same morphisms"
19:02:40	<mauke>	I don't think they do
19:02:52	<EvanR>	I didn't write the definition
19:03:19	<mauke>	there is a 1:1 mapping between their morphisms, but they're not the same
19:04:45	<madnight>	mauke: that's correct
19:04:50	<EvanR>	sounds like you think there's some kind of machinery that happens on each morphism to produce a different morphism that "does" something different, but it wouldn't make sense since speaking of arbitrary categories, the elements of a category don't necessarily have any actual form
19:05:21	<EvanR>	but opposite category is a thing for any category
19:05:26	<mauke>	"the same (isomorphic) collections of objects and morphisms"
19:05:32	<mauke>	that's a very CT point of view
19:05:42	<mauke>	there's an isomorphism, so it's basically the same :-)
19:06:04	<mauke>	EvanR: yes, but we're not in any category
19:06:05	<EvanR>	I don't think there's much a distinction to be made
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19:06:11	<mauke>	we're in Haskell
19:06:34	<madnight>	mauke: sure, but we can think of Hask
19:06:46	<mauke>	you can put on your CT glasses and look at all function types "backwards", but that's different from providing contramap within the language
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19:07:21	<madnight>	mauke: but why?
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19:07:48	<monochrom>	"Identity f" is a kind error that reflects a deep conceptual error.
19:07:58	<mauke>	that's like asking why blue things aren't red
19:08:08	geekosaur	kinda wants to hear kmett's take on this, but suspects he wouldn't understand it 🙂
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19:09:00	mauke	tries to think better
19:09:06	<kalj>	What is the best way to do take a single element from a Set and also get the remaining Set? Something like (x:xs) = myList for lists.
19:09:09	<madnight>	mauke: but if thats the answer to my question, then you inital phrase would have been like "red is not blue" which is like saying abslouty nothing
19:09:09	<monochrom>	My personal attitude is that until I see working code there is nothing to discuss.
19:09:51	<EvanR>	kalj, there's minView and maxView that does that
19:09:53	<madnight>	mauke: so then my question would be why are you saying nothing, instead of providing insightful answers?
19:10:01	<monochrom>	The perks of thinking like a scientist and engineer, not like an armchair philosopher (different from real philosophers, mind you).
19:10:34	<mauke>	EvanR: I think I see why you're right. now I have to figure out why you're wrong
19:11:23	<kalj>	EvanR: ah, thanks
19:11:34	<EvanR>	consider a simpler category and play with it's opposite, like A B C and six non trivial morphisms
19:11:44	<EvanR>	kalj, oh and Data.Set.split
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19:14:10	<EvanR>	madnight, are you asking about the difference between Contravariant instance for IdentityT f (ok) vs Identity f (nonsense)
19:14:34	<monochrom>	I wonder if splitRoot would help with the question the other day about peeking an arbitrary element but in O(1) time.
19:14:40	<kalj>	I guess if I want to take the elements added in the order they were inserted (FIFO), then I have to use another data structure? A queue but with only unique elements. What would be suitable for that?
19:15:05	<EvanR>	maybe you want a Data.Map ?
19:15:19	<EvanR>	or wait
19:15:31	<EvanR>	what happens if you insert a duplicate? It doesn't get inserted at all?
19:15:39	<monochrom>	Priority search queue :)
19:16:02	<EvanR>	or does the original unique value suddenly disappear from wherever it is
19:16:25	<kalj>	EvanR the original value remains, and the new one is not added anywhere
19:16:42	<EvanR>	thinks
19:16:49	<kalj>	:)
19:16:54	<c_wraith>	this isn't a common data structure
19:16:59	<geekosaur>	there's a Map that retains an insertion order, which is not the same as a pq
19:18:03	<geekosaur>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ordered-containers
19:18:26	<kalj>	It seems hard to both be fast with the dequeing and the uniqueEnque thingy
19:18:59	<EvanR>	OMap...
19:19:01	<kalj>	I think I will more often do the uniqueEnque than the deque
19:21:55	<EvanR>	oh, I missed the FIFO part
19:22:14	<mauke>	EvanR: why is there no instance Contravariant Identity? (that is, what is your answer?)
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19:22:59	<kalj>	geekosaur: this -- OrderedSet -- looks suitable https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ordered-containers-0.2.3/docs/Data-Set-Ordered.html#t:OSet
19:23:34	<madnight>	EvanR: yeah, simply explain to me in simple terms why Indntity f is nonsense and I would be happy :)
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19:24:45	<EvanR>	mauke, you mean, why can't you implement contramap for f = Identity?
19:24:59	<mauke>	if that's part of your answer
19:25:18	<EvanR>	:t contramap
19:25:19	<lambdabot>	Contravariant f => (a -> b) -> f b -> f a
19:25:36	<EvanR>	you'd have to produce an `a' right and wrap it in Identity
19:25:56	<EvanR>	similar to how you can't write an a -> b
19:26:04	<kalj>	OSet doesn't have a view though...
19:26:08	<mauke>	I'll just use the normal Functor instance and reverse all the arrows
19:26:28	<EvanR>	then the types don't match
19:26:43	<mauke>	to which madnight would probably say "why not?"
19:26:59	<EvanR>	in the normal functor instance you "have an a"
19:27:13	<EvanR>	you get it from the b -> a and the b
19:27:36	<c_wraith>	ah, the "if Haskell were Prolog" argument.
19:27:39	<mauke>	my intuition says that contramap is trying to represent the (abstract, theoretical) Hask^op morphisms using ordinary Haskell functions (with source/target types flipped)
19:28:10	<mauke>	and that doesn't work universally
19:28:54	<EvanR>	you still seem to think the elements of Hask^op are some bizarre other thing
19:29:21	<mauke>	by which I mean that in contramap :: (b -> a) -> f a -> f b, the (b -> a) part is not just a "backwards view" of the Hask category, but is an actual function which has to be implementable somehow
19:29:44	<mauke>	er, a backwards view of an (a -> b) arrow in Hask
19:29:48	<EvanR>	when contramap actually works, yeah you are provided some actual b -> a
19:30:12	<EvanR>	which corresponds to the type a <- b in Hask^op
19:30:19	<EvanR>	but is just some function
19:31:31	<mauke>	ooh, maybe that's what I've been missing
19:32:07	<mauke>	the arrows in (b -> a) -> (f a -> f b) are (conceptually) different things
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19:32:47	<mauke>	the middle arrow is part of the functor mapping. the outer arrows are morphisms in some category
19:33:21	<mauke>	and we're trying to do it all in the same environment: Haskell
19:33:22	<EvanR>	yeah the middle arrow is the meta mapping
19:33:50	<c_wraith>	madnight: the big conceptual thing to realize is that category theory is far more abstract than Haskell. Haskell is constrained by requirements to be computable and by details of how the type system works.
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19:34:36	<madnight>	Wait so, can someone explain me how this works: contramap f = IdentityT . contramap f . runIdentityT this actually types checks and works in Hask (Haskell)
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19:34:48	<EvanR>	:k IdentityT
19:34:49	<lambdabot>	(k -> ) -> k ->
19:34:54	<EvanR>	:k Identity
19:34:55	<lambdabot>	* -> *
19:35:05	<EvanR>	:k IdentityT Maybe
19:35:06	<lambdabot>	* -> *
19:35:14	<mauke>	IdentityT is ... a type of identity
19:35:39	<EvanR>	:k Char
19:35:40	<lambdabot>	*
19:35:41	<mauke>	madnight: that line basically says: if you have a contrafunctor f, then "identity f" is still a contrafunctor
19:36:08	<mauke>	well, that's misleading
19:36:25	<mauke>	there's both a type constructor "f" and a function parameter "f" here, at least in my head
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19:37:15	<EvanR>	:t runIdentityT
19:37:16	<lambdabot>	forall k (f :: k -> *) (a :: k). IdentityT f a -> f a
19:37:21	<mauke>	instance Contravariant f => Contravariant (IdentityT f) where { contramap g = IdentityT . contramap g . runIdentityT }
19:37:47	<EvanR>	runIdentityT "unwraps" a trivial wrapper to get an f a which is a contravariant value that you can contramap
19:37:55	<EvanR>	then the result is rewrapped
19:38:01	<mauke>	so ... the "instance Contravariant f => Contravariant (IdentityT f)" part says that if you have a contravariant functor f, then "identity f" is also a contravariant functor
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19:38:40	<mauke>	the contramap implementation is essentially a proof (?) of that claim
19:39:17	<EvanR>	there's many levels of triviality on top of each other leading to potential non-obvious vacuousness, are we sure we're not doing category theory? xD
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19:39:49	<mauke>	there's not much meat here; the essential part here is that "contramap g" is calling the contramap method from f's instance of Contravariant
19:40:17	<mauke>	hmm
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19:40:33	<mauke>	I guess IdentityT would be a mapping between functors, in CT terms
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19:40:46	<mauke>	whereas Identity is just a functor
19:40:49	<EvanR>	the identity natural transformation
19:41:29	<zzz>	anyone knows why lambdabot gives this message: [ERROR] Plugin.djinn: Djinn command failed: djinn: readCreateProcess: posix_spawnp: does not exist (No such file or directory) ?
19:41:30	<madnight>	mauke: a mapping between functors in the sense of natural transformation?
19:41:48	<mauke>	madnight: I haven't gotten that far in my CT tutorial yet :-)
19:42:03	<mauke>	but probably
19:42:16	<geekosaur>	zzza, you need to install https://hackage.haskell.org/package/djinn
19:42:42	<geekosaur>	it runs an external program which you need to install separately
19:42:59	<geekosaur>	zzz ^
19:43:07	<zzz>	since when is this the case? never had that problem before
19:43:23	<madnight>	Hmm, the more I talk to you, the more I come to the conclusion that it might be better to learn Haskell first and then CT, instead of the other way around.
19:43:27	<geekosaur>	since always
19:43:53	<EvanR>	haskell is a pretty weird 1 example to have when learning category theory
19:44:03	<EvanR>	there's a lot more to it
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19:44:23	<EvanR>	and having people telling you haskell isn't even a category doesn't help
19:44:43	<geekosaur>	it is possible that, if you used to use cabal-v1 style installs, it installs it for you in such a way that it can be found — but using v2-install you would need to cabal run lambdabot for it to be found
19:46:44	<zzz>	https://paste.jrvieira.com/1671651995584 -.-
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19:47:50	<EvanR>	<> has been reappropriated a few times in history
19:48:14	<EvanR>	at least once, I mean. So you'll need to import Prelude hiding ((<>)) perhaps
19:48:15	<madnight>	mauke: "there's not much meat here; the essential part here is that "contramap g" is calling the contramap method from f's instance of Contravariant" How is f's instance of Contravarian defined?
19:48:40	<zzz>	EvanR: this is the djinn library giving me the error
19:48:46	<geekosaur>	yeh, `import Prelude hiding ((<>))` is the workaround
19:48:59	<EvanR>	that code works for all contravariants f, it's polymorphic. So you don't / can't know how it's defined.
19:49:07	<mauke>	madnight: how long is a string?
19:49:16	<geekosaur>	zzz, you have to patch it locally, there's no release version
19:49:17	<madnight>	EvanR: ah sure makes sense
19:49:21	<mauke>	madnight: f is a variable here. we don't know which functor it is
19:49:22	<Jadesheit[m]>	what's the issue with `<>`?
19:49:36	<geekosaur>	I think someone is trying to take over all the packages that need to be updated for stuff to work
19:49:45	<mauke>	zzz: https://github.com/augustss/djinn/issues/12 :-(
19:49:58	<madnight>	mauke: so maybe you can provide an example for f?
19:50:01	<mauke>	Jadesheit[m]: it didn't used to be in Prelude, but now it is
19:50:10	<geekosaur>	Jadesheit[m], djinn uses its meaning as a way to combine two Docs (prettyprinting library)
19:50:16	<Jadesheit[m]>	ah yes
19:50:28	<mauke>	madnight: well, any contravariant functor. let me check your link
19:50:39	<EvanR>	the modern way would be to make Doc a Semigroup so it can just use <>
19:50:49	<zzz>	welp...
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19:51:08	<geekosaur>	cabal get djinn, patch it locally, cabal install
19:51:31	<geekosaur>	that's what I did (I used to run a lambdabot instance)
19:52:02	<mauke>	madnight: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.17.0.0/docs/Control-Applicative.html#t:Const is probably the dumbest one
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19:53:29	<madnight>	mauke: ah okay so Const is an example for a Contravariant Functor
19:53:47	<mauke>	madnight: newtype Predicate a = Predicate { getPredicate :: a -> Bool }; instance Contravariant Predicate where { contramap g (Predicate p) = Predicate (p . g) }
19:53:58	<mauke>	yeah
19:54:16	<mauke>	Const is a bit special in that it functs both ways
19:54:39	<zzz>	i was going to remove lambdabot and `apt install lambdabot` but i just remembered cabal doesn't do remove
19:54:52	<madnight>	mauke: so its a Functor and a Contravariant Functor? (has famp and contramap)?
19:55:05	<mauke>	madnight: yes
19:55:26	<geekosaur>	remove the executable. if you really care the libs can be gc-d
19:55:31	<geekosaur>	@where cabalgc
19:55:31	<lambdabot>	https://github.com/treblacy/cabalgc
19:55:43	<zzz>	is this safe?
19:55:51	<madnight>	mauke: nice, then that one serves as a perfect example for understanding I guess
19:55:55	<zzz>	no linkage problems?
19:56:18	<madnight>	mauke: so for Const we are able to flip the arrows
19:56:23	<mauke>	madnight: see also https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.17.0.0/docs/Data-Functor-Contravariant.html#v:phantom
19:56:36	<geekosaur>	zzz, at worst cabal might reinstall a few things next time it's used
19:56:39	<madnight>	mauke: why can we do so for Const? (i hope that is not a red / blue question)
19:56:44	<geekosaur>	it will not leave you with a broken store
19:56:58	<zzz>	geekosaur: nice, thanks
19:57:01	<EvanR>	:k Const
19:57:02	<lambdabot>	* -> k -> *
19:57:13	<mauke>	madnight: because 'Const a b' does not actually contain (or consume) a value of type 'b'
19:57:35	<EvanR>	actually Const t is the contravariant functor not Const
19:57:40	<mauke>	oops
19:58:07	<mauke>	yeah, kinds again. for any type t, 'Const t' is both a Functor and Contravariant
19:58:14	<EvanR>	but that's a separate question from why you can define contramap for Const t
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19:58:32	<EvanR>	just because the kinds work doesn't guarantee it
19:58:39	<EvanR>	as we saw for Identity
19:59:53	<mauke>	EvanR: where you the one who asked me about backtracking in a weird parser type?
20:00:14	<EvanR>	were you the one I asked about backtracking in a weird parser type?
20:00:19	<mauke>	yes :-)
20:00:19	<EvanR>	we might both be mixed up
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20:00:35	<mauke>	I was talking about a paper I half remembered
20:01:01	<mauke>	I was unable to find it again, but it turns out ReadP is almost exactly that type (with some continuation-y bits on top?)
20:01:28	<zzz>	geekosaur: just patched it `impoer Prelude hiding ( (<>) )` :P
20:01:39	<zzz>	*import
20:02:15	<mauke>	Text.ParserCombinators.ReadP has data P a = ... \| Result a (P a) \| ...
20:02:29	<mauke>	so it can "yield" and still continue parsing
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20:03:18	<EvanR>	I played around with the type you originally posted and couldn't figure it entirely out
20:03:41	<mauke>	yeah, I didn't quite get it right
20:03:54	<EvanR>	I couldn't get <\|> to work
20:05:53	<EvanR>	ok, it contains a lookahead constructor
20:06:16	<EvanR>	arbitrary lookahead
20:06:51	<madnight>	instance Contravariant (Const a) where
20:06:56	<madnight>	contramap _ (Const a) = Const a
20:07:19	<madnight>	hmm it throws away the f
20:07:35	<EvanR>	nothing to use it on anyway xD
20:07:48	<EvanR>	that a is kind of misleading
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20:08:26	<EvanR>	the second a doesn't have type a
20:08:45	<mauke>	yeah, like the description of 'phantom' says: if a type constructor is both Functor and Contravariant, it can't actually use the function passed to fmap/contramap
20:10:20	<EvanR>	instance Contravariant (Const b) where
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20:10:53	<madnight>	okay so map and contramap are mutual exclusive in the sense that they cannot be both implemented other than to throw away its function passed
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20:12:00	<EvanR>	contramap :: forall a b c . (b -> a) -> Const c a -> Const c b
20:12:20	<EvanR>	contramap _ (Const x) = Const x
20:13:04	<EvanR>	I retroactively change my instance to say Const c
20:13:41	<EvanR>	roll saving throw vs IRC petrification
20:14:42	<mauke>	I don't know how general this actually is, but intuitively I think of 'F a' as "F produces values of type a" if Functor F, and "F consumes values of type a" if Contravariant F
20:15:35	<mauke>	maybe that should be negated: Functor F => F a cannot consume a's; Contravariant F => F a cannot produce a's
20:15:35	<EvanR>	unless it's both? xD
20:15:52	<mauke>	so if it's both, it can neither produce nor consume
20:16:36	<EvanR>	yeah you can't make a functor if the variable appears in negative position
20:16:40	<mauke>	so if I had something like newtype Endo a = Endo (a -> a), I shouldn't be able to define an instance of Functor or Contravariant for it
20:16:43	<madnight>	mauke: how about a Functor (a -> a) that produces and consumes a
20:16:53	<mauke>	:-)
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20:18:31	<EvanR>	if you "postprocess" (functor) a -> a, you end up with a -> b, which violates the contract of Endo (not the same type anymore)
20:18:40	<EvanR>	same if you "preprocess" (contrafunctor)
20:19:02	<EvanR>	you would have to do both, which is Iso ?
20:20:12	<mauke>	uh oh, I'm getting profunctored. more to read ...
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20:21:57	<madnight>	"Formally, the class Profunctor represents a profunctor from Hask -> Hask. Intuitively it is a bifunctor where the first argument is contravariant and the second argument is covariant." https://hackage.haskell.org/package/profunctors-5.6.2/docs/Data-Profunctor.html
20:22:05	<madnight>	That sounds good to me.
20:23:18	<jean-paul[m]>	Can I use ForeignFunctionInterface if I have to dlopen the library exporting the functions I want to import (instead of linking against it)?
20:23:49	<jean-paul[m]>	If not, how do I get a Haskell function I can call (I don't see how to turn what dlsym returns into something callable)?
20:24:02	<mauke>	EvanR: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-functional-programming/article/functional-pearl-parallel-parsing-processes/0AF17481A41F2007752F530F07698139
20:24:09	<mauke>	! I think this is the article I remember
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20:25:27	<geekosaur>	jean-paul[m], there used to be https://hackage.haskell.org/package/plugins but I don't know if it works with ghc9
20:25:44	<geekosaur>	ForeignFunctionInterface is not sufficient
20:25:51	<jean-paul[m]>	Stuck on 8.6.5 anyway so ... yay? :)
20:25:53	jean-paul[m]	looks
20:26:28	<EvanR>	the gl package dynamically loads opengl so it must be possible
20:26:49	<madnight>	mauke: so a Profunctor is an example for a Functor and Contravariant Functor that actually makes use of its function argument?
20:28:05	<mauke>	jean-paul[m]: call dlsym, castPtrToFunPtr, pass to a "dynamic" import stub?
20:28:07	<EvanR>	Profunctors have 2 parameters, one is covaraint and the other is contravariant. So they can both exist
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20:28:25	<mauke>	madnight: dude, I know nothing about lenses
20:29:05	<madnight>	mauke: hmm, well I don't want to talk about profunctor optics, just profunctors
20:29:16	<mauke>	yeah, I have no clue about those :-)
20:29:26	<mauke>	jean-paul[m]: https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/haskell2010/haskellch8.html#x15-1620008.5.1
20:29:35	<EvanR>	(->) is an example of a Profunctor, have fun xD
20:30:09	<jean-paul[m]>	mauke: oof
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20:35:13	<EvanR>	the previous observation about consuming or producing `a' doesn't apply to Profunctors because it has two parameters that can vary separately
20:35:48	<EvanR>	while Endo can only consume and produce matching types
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20:41:29	<jean-paul[m]>	mauke: Yea that seems to work. Thanks.
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20:42:14	<jean-paul[m]>	Unfortunately I have the same mysterious cabal failure on Android as ever, so maybe the problem doesn't have to do with FFI or linkage...
20:43:38	<madnight>	EvanR: I see, but may question is still: Is a Profunctor an example of an Functor and Contravariant Functor like Const, but without throwing away its function argument? I think yes.
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20:44:05	<EvanR>	Profunctor is a class, you'd have to come up with specific examples to see it not throwing something away
20:44:14	<EvanR>	:t lmap
20:44:15	<lambdabot>	Profunctor p => (a -> b) -> p b c -> p a c
20:44:17	<EvanR>	:t rmap
20:44:18	<lambdabot>	Profunctor p => (b -> c) -> p a b -> p a c
20:44:39	<mauke>	the critical part is that a profunctor takes two type arguments, not just one
20:44:40	<EvanR>	there are profunctors which do throw away the function
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20:45:15	<mauke>	one of them maps forwards, the other backwards
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20:45:55	<EvanR>	:t dimap
20:45:57	<lambdabot>	Profunctor p => (a -> b) -> (c -> d) -> p b c -> p a d
20:46:23	<madnight>	EvanR: can you provide and example of an Profunctor that doesn't throw away the function?
20:46:36	<EvanR>	instance Profunctor (->) where
20:46:56	<EvanR>	(exercise for madnight)
20:47:14	<madnight>	dimap f g = lmap f . rmap g
20:47:38	<mauke>	that's the default implementation. it assumes you've defined lmap and rmap
20:48:02	<jackdk>	or put any contravariant functor next to any covariant functor - `(Contravariant f, Functor g) => Product (Clown f) (Joker g)` should have a profunctor instance
20:48:39	<EvanR>	:k Product
20:48:40	<lambdabot>	* -> *
20:48:50	<mauke>	heh
20:48:55	<mauke>	@src Product
20:48:55	<lambdabot>	newtype Product a = Product { getProduct :: a }
20:49:11	<mauke>	that's a monoid thing, isn't it
20:49:19	<geekosaur>	yes
20:49:22	<EvanR>	it's a monoid thing
20:49:34	<monochrom>	lambdabot's Product is the one that gets "instance Num a => Semigroup (Product a) where <> means multiplication" to work.
20:50:03	<monochrom>	which is also base's Product.
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20:50:12	<monochrom>	I think base has :*: for the product bifunctor.
20:50:36	<monochrom>	onoes it's also called Product.
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20:51:03	<monochrom>	This is very poorly done product branding!
20:51:09	<EvanR>	one day computers will be smart enough to call everything the same name like us
20:51:32	<monochrom>	Like Pikachu's language? :)
20:51:38	<madnight>	maybe Yoneda is a good example
20:51:40	<madnight>	newtype Yoneda p a b = Yoneda { runYoneda :: forall x y. (x -> a) -> (b -> y) -> p x y }
20:51:49	<mauke>	ok, so I know Functor/Profunctor, and I know Product. But what is a Duct?
20:51:49	<madnight>	instance Profunctor (Yoneda p) where
20:51:56	<madnight>	dimap l r p = Yoneda $ \l' r' -> runYoneda p (l . l') (r' . r)
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20:53:34	<EvanR>	dang is that what Yoneda is? So simple now xD
20:53:55	<EvanR>	types are worth 1000 pictures
20:53:59	<mastarija>	when in ghci, is it possible to specify stdin as a file, when I want to run a function that reads from standard input?
20:54:07	<monochrom>	I think the complexity and richness is in how many surprising things you can do with it, as usual.
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20:55:17	<monochrom>	System.IO already has "stdin :: Handle".
20:55:58	<mauke>	yeah, but local redirect
20:56:04	<monochrom>	For example getChar is alias for hGetChar stdin
20:56:24	<EvanR>	I think you can close and reopen stdin?
20:56:24	<monochrom>	I wonder if :main lets you do that.
20:56:37	<geekosaur>	doesn't look like it, sadly
20:57:00	<monochrom>	You can close but since you don't have "stdin :: IORef Handle" there is no "re-open".
20:57:17	<mauke>	wait, Yoneda looks like a constructor a for a universal "pair of functions" thing
20:57:32	<mastarija>	I'd like to do something similar to :set args
20:57:49	<mastarija>	But I'd like to open a file and make it the new `stdin`
20:58:11	<mastarija>	so that I can test my functions that read from stdin
20:58:11	<EvanR>	writing your program to use a handle that you pass in would be more flexible and robust
20:58:30	<mastarija>	It's for demonstration purposes.
20:58:33	<monochrom>	Consider runghc :)
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20:58:36	<EvanR>	instead of needing dependency injection of a global handle
20:58:37	<jean-paul[m]>	You could dup stdin, dup something else over it, then dup stdin back to the right place at the end.
20:58:52	<jean-paul[m]>	But making the function accept an argument is certainly nicer.
20:59:08	<monochrom>	Wait, I think "writing your program to use a handle that you pass in" is dependency injection!
20:59:13	<mastarija>	I'm teaching a haskell course and we have to go over a few examples of functions that read stdin.
20:59:40	<monochrom>	This is why I don't teach IO at all >:)
20:59:42	<jean-paul[m]>	Why not teach your students about passing arguments where they're needed at the same time? :)
21:00:04	<mauke>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.17.0.0/docs/GHC-IO-Device.html#v:dup2
21:00:10	<mastarija>	I've inherited the lecture material
21:00:10	<monochrom>	I teach redirection when the course is C and Unix though :)
21:00:26	<jean-paul[m]>	If you show students the thing I said then overall you are probably doing most of them a disservice.
21:00:53	<mastarija>	I won't show them. I'll probably just use it as a wrapper around my function :)
21:00:59	<EvanR>	if you manage to break in and redefine what stdin is somehow, wouldn't that make ghci stop working?
21:01:08	<monochrom>	Don't redirect stdin. Use one of those test-your-GUI tools to simulate keybarod input...
21:01:36	<mauke>	EvanR: I hope ghci reads from the terminal, not stdin
21:01:42	<monochrom>	Hell, use one of those click-mouse-button-a-million-times-for-game-grinding tools too... XD
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21:02:03	<mauke>	... nope, it doesn't
21:02:03	<geekosaur>	EvanR, yes. which is one reason :main doesn't allow redirection, I think: threads continue to run in the background but filehandles are process-global
21:02:44	<mastarija>	Hm.. yes, I like none of the options.
21:03:08	<mastarija>	I can't find if it's possible to specify which function to run with runhaskell command
21:03:14	<geekosaur>	also I'd be annoyed if `echo :q \| cabal repl` didn't work
21:03:26	<monochrom>	Then consider ghc -e
21:03:38	<madnight>	newtype Yoneda p a b = Yoneda { runYoneda :: forall x y. (x -> a) -> (b -> y) -> p x y } deriving Functor actually works
21:03:52	<mastarija>	maybe something like `runhaskell MyFile.hs myfun`
21:04:37	<monochrom>	"ghc C.hs -e 'f 10'" works when C.hs has "f x = x + 1".
21:05:18	<EvanR>	yeah deriving Functor works if and only if Functor instance is possible
21:05:20	<EvanR>	crazy
21:05:24	<mastarija>	that looks nice
21:05:50	<EvanR>	still waiting for derive WildlyProfitableMMORPG
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21:06:01	<monochrom>	I haven't tested "ghc C.hs -e blahblah < inputfile" but that's pretty much the last possibility.
21:06:24	<geekosaur>	runghc -main-is --ghc-arg=foo bar baz <mumbles
21:06:25	<mastarija>	I'll play with it and see what works
21:07:25	<madnight>	EvanR: can I somehow hask ghci to show me its derived instance definition for functor of a particular type?
21:07:57	<EvanR>	ghc can dump derived instances I think
21:08:35	<geekosaur>	but only during compilation
21:08:37	<monochrom>	But really no Haskell/FP course should be using redirection in the teaching material. (In test harnesses for assignments, sure.)
21:08:39	<geekosaur>	not after the fact
21:09:48	<madnight>	hmm, how could fmap for Yoneda look like, i mean it should be to hard to write it down
21:10:01	<madnight>	shouldn't
21:10:51	<EvanR>	you already saw dimap which is a combination of lmap and fmap
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21:10:57	<monochrom>	EvanR: The crazy part is I thought "newtype C r a = C ((a -> r) -> r)" was too hard but DeriveFunctor knows how to do it too.
21:11:48	<geekosaur>	madnight, https://paste.tomsmeding.com/5yEvdLFg
21:11:58	<EvanR>	I guess I have to first write down a type for DeriveWildlyProfitableMMORPG to work on first...
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21:12:14	<monochrom>	On the flip side, this speaks for how simplistic, even boring, lawful Functors are.
21:12:46	<EvanR>	that's a good argument for CT though, if everything it does is boring, good that is precisely what we don't want to be doing manually
21:13:16	<madnight>	fmap f p = Yoneda $ \l r -> runYoneda p l (r . f)
21:13:42	<monochrom>	Well, the positive way to say "simple and boring" is "has structure" :)
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21:16:01	<mauke>	wait, is this like a double negative? p is consuming a function that consumes a 'b', so we can fmap over it
21:16:39	<EvanR>	a is in double negative position
21:17:01	<monochrom>	Yeah, like (a -> r) -> r
21:17:30	<madnight>	instance Functor (Yoneda p a) where fmap f p = Yoneda $ \l r -> runYoneda p l (r . f) ghci tells me I'm doing fine
21:17:44	<EvanR>	if it type checks, ship it
21:18:04	<mauke>	EvanR: unfortunately that doesn't work with Cont :-(
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21:18:27	<EvanR>	what doesn't
21:18:28	<monochrom>	But it does, like I said, and I tested it a few days ago when it came up.
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21:18:43	<monochrom>	newtype C r a = C ((a -> r) -> r) deriving Functor
21:19:02	<geekosaur>	I think mauke meant "type checks" vs. "can be derived"
21:19:28	<EvanR>	I was not serious
21:19:48	<EvanR>	haskell's logic is full of holes
21:20:01	<monochrom>	I think in the case of Cont if you manually write an fmap that typechecks it also works fine.
21:20:14	<mauke>	could be
21:20:23	<mauke>	I think I had issues with >>=/join and callCC
21:20:28	<geekosaur>	actually, I'm thinking should be
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21:20:54	<geekosaur>	the laws follow from parametricity and the free theorem, don't they?
21:20:58	<mauke>	"TambaraSum is cofreely adjoins strength with respect to Either." what
21:21:08	<geekosaur>	so typechecking should in fact indicate it's correct
21:21:19	<EvanR>	that doesn't grammar check
21:21:36	<mauke>	even electronic brain pancake crystal elderly
21:21:42	<monochrom>	In the case of Cont you really have very few choices, even for Monad and callCC.
21:22:08	<monochrom>	I mean, in the case of [] you have more freedom to go wrong.
21:22:12	<geekosaur>	(this is not true of >>=, only of fmap)
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21:27:39	<mauke>	@djinn ((a -> r) -> r) -> (a -> (b -> r) -> r) -> (b -> r) -> r
21:27:39	<lambdabot>	f a b c = a (\ d -> b d c)
21:28:03	<EvanR>	you got a free monad
21:28:12	<monochrom>	And that one is the correct >>=
21:28:27	<monochrom>	modulo newtype wrapping and unwrapping, but meh.
21:29:00	<monochrom>	but yes the fingerprint of double negation all over it
21:29:17	<mauke>	why bother with fiddly wrapping/unwrapping when you can just coerce the whole thing? :-)
21:29:40	<EvanR>	so a consumer of consumers of a is effectively a producer of a, got it
21:31:17	<mauke>	@djinn ((a -> (b -> r) -> r) -> (a -> r) -> r) -> (a -> r) -> r
21:31:17	<lambdabot>	f a b = a (\ c _ -> b c) b
21:31:34	<monochrom>	haha
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21:32:55	<mauke>	makes sense to me
21:33:01	<madnight>	okay so can someone help me out
21:33:04	<madnight>	instance Contravariant (Yoneda p a) where contramap f p = Yoneda $ \l r -> runYoneda p (f . l) r
21:33:10	<madnight>	does not work, why?
21:33:17	<EvanR>	what is the error
21:33:33	<madnight>	Couldn't match type ‘a1’ with ‘a’
21:33:35	<madnight>	Expected: x -> a
21:33:37	<madnight>	Actual: x -> a1
21:33:56	<EvanR>	at what part
21:33:57	<mauke>	Contravariant (Flip (Yoneda p) b)
21:34:03	<mauke>	but Flip does not exist
21:34:31	<monochrom>	Yeah djinn has got callCC right too.
21:34:52	<monochrom>	That success is a bit more surprising for me but meh.
21:34:58	<EvanR>	basically you applied f to the wrong component, but you can't because it's in the wrong place for Contravariant to apply
21:35:16	<EvanR>	(can't apply it to the right component)
21:36:22	<EvanR>	there is a newtype wrapper to extract the contravariant from a profunctor if you want
21:37:00	<madnight>	EvanR: well I applied f to the left component (f . l) r and for fmap I did l (r . f), I suppose this is correct
21:38:25	<EvanR>	but you probably listed the type as Yoneda p f in the instance head in both cases
21:39:15	<EvanR>	as opposed to Yoneda p f in one and Yoneda p _ g, probably because the second one isn't real syntax
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21:39:48	<EvanR>	bah bad letter choices but yeah
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21:41:21	<mauke>	Functor f wants to fmap over f a
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21:41:43	<EvanR>	Flip does exist it seems
21:41:46	<madnight>	ah okay how can I write instance Contravariant (Yoneda p _ g) ?
21:41:49	<EvanR>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bifunctors-5.5.12/docs/Data-Bifunctor-Flip.html
21:42:01	<mauke>	damn :-)
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21:42:29	<mauke>	but it's boilerplatey; you can't just say type Flip f a b = f b a
21:42:36	<EvanR>	:t Joker
21:42:37	<lambdabot>	error: Data constructor not in scope: Joker
21:42:40	<EvanR>	:k Joker
21:42:41	<lambdabot>	error:
21:42:41	<lambdabot>	Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘Joker’
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21:44:03	<donk>	@pl \x -> f (g x)
21:44:03	<lambdabot>	f . g
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21:44:28	<mauke>	@pl \f g x -> f (g x)
21:44:28	<lambdabot>	(.)
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21:44:40	<EvanR>	madnight, you can't directly, also how would you even use contramap on a Yoneda p _ g
21:45:04	<EvanR>	better, to use a newtype to get the contrafunctor from any profunctor
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21:48:06	<Sanchez>	@pl \x -> f (g x)
21:48:07	<lambdabot>	f . g
21:48:48	<mauke>	again?
21:49:20	<donk>	Sanchez: you can PM the bot too. if you click it and push "Send a message"
21:49:56	<Sanchez>	ah cool thanks
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21:56:34	<madnight>	newtype Yoneda p b a = Yoneda { runYoneda :: forall x y. (x -> a) -> (b -> y) -> p x y }
21:56:44	<madnight>	newtype Yoneda p b a = Yoneda { runYoneda :: forall x y. (x -> a) -> (b -> y) -> p x y }
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21:56:58	<madnight>	instance Contravariant (Yoneda p a) where contramap f p = Yoneda $ \l r -> runYoneda p (f . l) r
21:57:04	<madnight>	that type checks
21:57:17	<madnight>	but how do I define functor for the fliped Yoneda?
21:58:09	<mauke>	you don't :-)
21:58:34	<mauke>	as I was saying: Functor f wants to fmap over f a
21:58:52	<mauke>	we can set f = Yoneda p a' and get f a = Yoneda p a' a
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22:00:02	<mauke>	Contravariant wants to work the same way, but there is no "prefix" of Yoneda p a b that we could bind to 'f' to make 'f a' work contravariantly
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22:00:30	<mauke>	by which I mean that 'Yoneda p a b' is contravariant in 'a', which is not the last parameter
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22:00:57	<mauke>	you can sidestep that by flipping 'a' and 'b' in the definition of 'Yoneda', but then you can't define a Functor instance
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22:02:40	<madnight>	ah okay so my inital assumption still holds, it's impossible do give instances of Functor and Contramap for a Type without throwing away its function argument
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22:03:54	<mauke>	yes, because Functor and Contravariant both "attach" to the last type parameter
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22:27:52	<bor0>	Hi. I am curious to which logic does SKI calculus correspond? Wikipedia says (for Combinatory_logic) that "the expressive power of combinatory logic typically exceeds that of first-order logic". But in the SKI_combinator_calculus article it says "The combinators K and S correspond to two well-known axioms of sentential logic". Given that SKI is a combinatory logic itself, wouldn't it correspond to FOL instead?
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22:47:47	<monochrom>	Unpopular opinion: If Yoneda p a b = forall x y. (x -> a) -> (b -> y) -> p x y, then Yoda p b a = forall forall x y. (x -> a) -> (b -> y) -> p x y :)
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23:47:51	×	freeside quits (~mengwong@103.252.202.159) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
23:57:20	×	bjourne quits (~bjorn@94.191.153.229) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
23:57:23	×	random-jellyfish quits (~random-je@user/random-jellyfish) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
23:57:24	×	Xeroine quits (~Xeroine@user/xeroine) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
23:58:50	<EvanR>	type YoDawga p a b = Yoneda (Yoneda p) a b
23:59:37	→	Xeroine joins (~Xeroine@user/xeroine)

All times are in UTC on 2022-12-21.