Logs on 2022-12-27 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 03:00:57 | <fizbin> | Is it at all possible to run elemIndex on a mutable vector, or do I have to roll my own? |
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| 03:13:43 | <dsal> | Yeah, it'd be a sequence of monadic actions to read the values, so it'd at least have to look different. |
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| 04:11:55 | <freeside> | say, if i'm building against the latest stackage nightly on apple M1, should i expect ghc 9.4 to produce an arm binary or x86_64? |
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| 04:13:27 | <dsal> | It should produce a native ARM binary |
| 04:14:16 | <freeside> | that's what i thought. I wonder why it's putting out x86_64. I see half the things in .local/bin/ are arm64 and half are x86. |
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| 04:16:27 | <dsal> | If you're running stuff out of rosetta, then it might. |
| 04:16:40 | <dsal> | I'm just running native nix |
| 04:16:58 | <freeside> | entertainingly i seem to have 9.4.3 under both ~/.stack/programs/aarch64-osx and ~/.stack/programs/x86_64-osx |
| 04:17:25 | <dsal> | Is your `stack` native? |
| 04:17:57 | <freeside> | hm, my `which stack` shows nix-profile, maybe i should get rid of that and run the ghcup version |
| 04:19:08 | <dsal> | Are you not running native nix? |
| 04:19:25 | <money> | joeyes |
| 04:19:39 | <money> | = top right room |
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| 04:21:08 | <freeside> | i have /nix installed but also ghcup, i think i ought to be preferring the latter as i'm not good about keeping my nix pkgs up to date |
| 04:24:26 | <freeside> | heh, helloworld on x86 is 1.1 |
| 04:24:43 | <freeside> | helloworld on arm64 is 9.5M |
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| 04:28:10 | <dsal> | I'm using nix, but not any x86_64 stuff. |
| 04:30:47 | <freeside> | mmm, thanks. it seems that even though the binary is bigger it executes a teeny bit faster. after the initial load, that is |
| 04:39:42 | <freeside> | i wonder if my x86 binaries are dynamically linked while my arm binaries are statically linked |
| 04:40:37 | <dsal> | I don't think anything's statically linked. |
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| 05:14:04 | <Inst> | hummm |
| 05:14:18 | <Inst> | not sure if this pisses too many people off, but I'm trying to translate dependently typed Julia code into Haskell |
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| 05:15:38 | <Inst> | i'm stalled because I can't figure out how to get overlapping instances to work properly |
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| 05:23:55 | <money> | So over that |
| 05:24:12 | <money> | Seamless like internal request accepted |
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| 05:48:49 | <Inst> | bleh, fuck me, I'm pretty sure this doesn't work because types don't exist at runtime |
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| 07:04:12 | <Inst> | so, ummm, is it impossible to do a dependently typed fizzbuzz in Haskell? |
| 07:06:49 | <Inst> | @jackdk: thanks, but it's still stalled |
| 07:06:49 | <lambdabot> | Unknown command, try @list |
| 07:10:18 | <dsal> | Inst: Haskell doesn't haven't dependent types. |
| 07:10:26 | <dsal> | You might be able to get further with liquid haskell. |
| 07:10:32 | <dsal> | Otherwise, look at agda or idris. |
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| 07:25:43 | ← | jakalx parts (~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) () |
| 07:26:27 | <Inst> | dsal: so, but you get the pseudo DT implementation in Julia, right? |
| 07:26:49 | <Inst> | where multiple dispatch (their implementation of multiparameter typeclasses with some sort of instance resolution, I don't understand Haskell's instance resolution) |
| 07:26:55 | <Inst> | is used to handle the conditionals |
| 07:26:57 | <dsal> | I've never had any particular interest in julia. |
| 07:27:07 | <Inst> | I'm trying to port it to Haskell |
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| 07:27:52 | <Inst> | it's impossible to get >class FizzBuzz a b n where; fizzBuzz :: Proxy a -> Proxy b -> n -> String to work, right? |
| 07:27:53 | <dsal> | If you're wanting to do something with dependent types, you're not going to get very far with any released version of ghc. This is ongoing research. |
| 07:28:13 | <money> | Meh |
| 07:28:16 | <money> | Dependent nah |
| 07:28:20 | <money> | In need of yes |
| 07:28:24 | <money> | Upgrade yes |
| 07:28:27 | <Inst> | or, in other words, I can't have a type that functions as a conditional? |
| 07:28:30 | <money> | Depending never |
| 07:28:42 | <money> | Automatic synchronization |
| 07:28:51 | <money> | Private level |
| 07:29:09 | <money> | Like a VPN but real-time and fewer “users” |
| 07:29:13 | <Inst> | dsal, could you help? |
| 07:29:23 | <dsal> | You can do some primitive things with higher kinds, but if you want actual dependent types, you need a language that supports them. haskell doesn't. |
| 07:29:24 | <Inst> | just asking if what I'm trying to do specifically, is impossible |
| 07:29:33 | <money> | nope |
| 07:29:43 | <money> | system needs a few to catch on/up |
| 07:29:55 | <money> | 1 2 3 aaaannnnddd |
| 07:29:59 | <money> | Here() |
| 07:30:06 | <Inst> | I want a function that takes an Integer, outputs a String, but processes the integer via the typeclass instance resolution mechanism |
| 07:30:12 | <Inst> | that is hopeless, right? |
| 07:31:40 | <c_wraith> | It's not impossible to encode in GHC's extensions to the type system, but... It's really indirect. |
| 07:31:56 | <Inst> | bleh |
| 07:32:04 | <Inst> | I have a friend, or rather, a guy I hired to help me learn Haskell |
| 07:32:07 | <c_wraith> | To the point where when I pointed you at exactly what you needed to do something yesterday, you didn't even realize that's what I was doing. |
| 07:32:15 | <Inst> | maybe I can pay him to help me understand how to port the Julia pseudo-DT fizzbuzz to Haskell |
| 07:32:25 | <Inst> | yeah, I know |
| 07:33:13 | <c_wraith> | It's indirect and awkward and sometimes worth experimenting with just to see how well it works - or doesn't. |
| 07:33:17 | <Inst> | I guess I'll go pay him to be bothered by me isntead of being a relative Haskell noob bothering three different Haskell social medias |
| 07:33:23 | <c_wraith> | But it's not a great way to actually get things done. |
| 07:33:32 | <Inst> | c_wraith: of course |
| 07:33:43 | <Inst> | It's more of an experiment to try to understand Haskell better |
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| 07:38:10 | <Inst> | c_wraith: iirc, I never figured out how to get someNatVal to work |
| 07:38:30 | <Inst> | I ended up using reifyNat instead via jack's suggestion |
| 07:39:26 | <c_wraith> | they're the same thing. Well, it's a dual encoding, but they end up working the exact same way. |
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| 07:55:08 | <Inst> | the problem with someNatVal is that I couldn't figure out how to get the value out of the proxy |
| 07:55:17 | <Inst> | erm, out of the sum type |
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| 12:36:57 | <MysteryLiezer> | Testing IRC at the moment |
| 12:37:07 | <MysteryLiezer> | Looking to become a longtime user! |
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| 12:43:40 | <MysteryLiezer> | Checking to see if this works(?) |
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| 12:45:12 | <chreekat> | MysteryLiezer: 👋 |
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| 12:45:45 | <MysteryLiezer> | Thanks for that! |
| 12:45:51 | <MysteryLiezer> | Still learning how to use all of this |
| 12:46:10 | <MysteryLiezer> | Will refrain from further populating this thread with my testing |
| 12:47:38 | <Axman6> | MysteryLiezer: welcome - do you have any haskell questions we can help with? |
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| 12:50:11 | <MysteryLiezer> | I will in just a few weeks! |
| 12:50:33 | <MysteryLiezer> | See you then! |
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| 13:01:38 | <darkling> | This is nothing to do with Haskell, but I'm hoping someone's had experience: I'm looking for an algorithm to lay out a DAG on the page in a particular way, and I'm having trouble finding keywords that lead to papers that do what I want. |
| 13:01:59 | <darkling> | Specifically, I want the resulting graph to look soething like this: https://carfax.org.uk/files/temp/drawing.svg |
| 13:02:13 | <darkling> | Minimising crossings, and avoiding overlaid lines. |
| 13:02:47 | <darkling> | Nodes may be different widths, and there may be an arbitrary number of layers (not just the two here) |
| 13:04:23 | <darkling> | Does anyone know of papers, reviews, or even just keywords from the graph-drawing community that would get me to find the right literature? |
| 13:05:04 | <Axman6> | graphviz would be the best place to start, it's got and documents a lot of algorithms for laying out graphs |
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| 13:06:54 | <Axman6> | and really, just outputting dot files and using graphviz is probably the best place to start |
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| 13:07:53 | <darkling> | Yeah, I want to do UI interaction with it, so using graphviz output directly is probably a non-starter. |
| 13:08:51 | <Axman6> | there are javascript libraries that are compatible too. alternatively you kight be able to find something in the diagrams package, but hothing interactive |
| 13:08:56 | <Axman6> | nothing* |
| 13:11:01 | <darkling> | The problem is, I don't know what people *call* this kind of layout, so I don't know what to look for. |
| 13:16:32 | <Axman6> | thats why I suggested graphviz, it documents its various algorithms with examples |
| 13:18:18 | <darkling> | I've played around with it, and had trouble finding settings in the command-line tools to do what I wanted, but I'll have a deeper trawl through the online docs in case there's stuff there that I didn't find. |
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| 16:11:23 | <dgpratt[m]> | @pl f a g = r g (h a) |
| 16:11:23 | <lambdabot> | f = flip r . h |
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| 17:08:18 | ChanServ | sets mode +o monochrom |
| 17:08:30 | monochrom | sets mode +b $a:money |
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| 17:12:46 | Gambino | is kicked by monochrom (Gambino) |
| 17:12:53 | monochrom | sets mode -o monochrom |
| 17:13:47 | <monochrom> | I was banning Gambino aka money aka polo because it is behaving as a highly irrelevant markov chain. |
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| 17:16:28 | <Hecate> | hahaha |
| 17:16:30 | <Hecate> | yeah |
| 17:17:06 | <geekosaur> | noticed that some time back, yeh |
| 17:17:14 | <geekosaur> | warned them both here and in #ghc |
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| 17:19:17 | <geekosaur> | wow, Hécate is taking on the Safe Haskell cesspool |
| 17:21:11 | × | freeside quits (~mengwong@103.252.202.159) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 17:21:15 | <geekosaur> | don't burn out |
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| 17:22:29 | <monochrom> | darkling: Does https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force-directed_graph_drawing help? |
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| 17:23:23 | <monochrom> | maybe also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_drawing#Layout_methods for other methods |
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| 17:25:34 | <darkling> | I think "layered" is the best fit, and has a conveniently low-O() algorithm for the basic layout. |
| 17:27:09 | <monochrom> | https://stats.stackexchange.com/questions/51519/list-of-graph-layout-algorithms may help too. |
| 17:27:11 | <darkling> | Graphviz's "dot" layout engine does that, but doesn't do the rectilinear joining lines, and that's still something I'm looking for the relevant keywords for |
| 17:27:39 | <Hecate> | https://discourse.haskell.org/t/deprecating-safe-haskell-or-heavily-investing-in-it/5489 |
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| 17:29:49 | <monochrom> | rectilinear is probably what's in Graph_drawing "Orthogonal layout methods". But it has no further links. |
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| 17:39:16 | <darkling> | I think a rectilinear graph is a bit different -- it can be drawn so that all the arcs are either horizontal or vertical. In my case, the arcs do both (two verticals and a horizontal for each arc). |
| 17:40:17 | <darkling> | You could probably add extra nodes to get the dog-legs in, but I think that's probably less contrained (and harder to solve) than something more special-case. |
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| 22:42:01 | <DigitalKiwi> | :m Numeric |
| 22:42:02 | <DigitalKiwi> | showFullPrecision x = showFFloat Nothing x "" |
| 22:42:20 | <DigitalKiwi> | i have that in my .ghci but i was wondering if i can make it like the default? |
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| 22:43:46 | <DigitalKiwi> | ghci> showFullPrecision $ 5/100 |
| 22:43:48 | <DigitalKiwi> | "0.05" |
| 22:43:50 | <DigitalKiwi> | ghci> 5/100 |
| 22:43:52 | <DigitalKiwi> | 5.0e-2 |
| 22:44:02 | <geekosaur> | no, you can't override Show instances |
| 22:44:46 | <DigitalKiwi> | want to type 5/100 and get 0.05 lol :( |
| 22:44:48 | <geekosaur> | there is a way to replace the output routine, but it can't know the type of the thing being printed so it can't special case for Float/Double |
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| 22:45:51 | <DigitalKiwi> | oh wow just noticed haskell has banned money |
| 22:45:55 | <hpc> | > printf "%d" 0.05 |
| 22:45:56 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 22:45:57 | <lambdabot> | • Ambiguous type variable ‘a0’ arising from a use of ‘show_M168531161830... |
| 22:45:57 | <lambdabot> | prevents the constraint ‘(Show a0)’ from being solved. |
| 22:46:01 | <hpc> | bah |
| 22:46:19 | <hpc> | you probably want printf here |
| 22:46:29 | <hpc> | it's able to precisely control the formatting of a decimal number |
| 22:47:33 | <monochrom> | > printf "%f" 0.05 :: String |
| 22:47:35 | <lambdabot> | "0.05" |
| 22:47:37 | <DigitalKiwi> | (☭)=($) ; infixr 0 ☭ |
| 22:47:45 | <monochrom> | %d is for Int or Integer |
| 22:48:03 | <ggVGc> | DigitalKiwi: why do you say Haskell has banned money? |
| 22:48:15 | <ggVGc> | If you want to represent exact values you can use Fractional, I think? |
| 22:48:24 | <DigitalKiwi> | 11:08 @monochrom set mode: +b $a:money |
| 22:48:25 | <DigitalKiwi> | 11:12 @monochrom kicked Gambino: Gambino |
| 22:48:29 | <DigitalKiwi> | joke ;p |
| 22:48:33 | <monochrom> | hee hee |
| 22:48:33 | <ggVGc> | ah, right |
| 22:48:45 | <monochrom> | But you want infixl, not infixr. |
| 22:48:58 | <DigitalKiwi> | i'm an anti-capitalist that's why i only type lowercase so i'm here for it |
| 22:49:08 | <monochrom> | Right? $ is capitalist right wing, ☭ is socialist left wing. |
| 22:49:21 | <DigitalKiwi> | hehehe |
| 22:49:22 | <monochrom> | It is actually now how I remember that $ is infixr. |
| 22:49:46 | <DigitalKiwi> | it's from a few days (weeks?) ago lol |
| 22:49:54 | <DigitalKiwi> | just had it in my up history |
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| 22:53:31 | <ggVGc> | would haskell be better or worse if we could use arbitrary unicode as operators? |
| 22:54:13 | <darkling> | Being able to use mathematical symbols would be nice. |
| 22:54:32 | <darkling> | Half a dozen stars from the Dingbats range... less so. |
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| 22:54:36 | <DigitalKiwi> | can we not? |
| 22:55:26 | <DigitalKiwi> | or are meaning function != operator |
| 22:55:37 | <hpc> | what we really need is full-program preprocessors so we can get ACME::Bleach ported over |
| 22:55:43 | <ggVGc> | Haskell has a set of predefined valid operators |
| 22:56:44 | <ggVGc> | personally I like making DSLs a lot, and for that being able to use anything for operators would be nice. But in the greater picture I think it's probably good to keep a lid on it |
| 22:56:57 | <monochrom> | Better and worse. |
| 22:57:00 | <ggVGc> | however, not sure how much better it is with the current set of valid operator constructs.. |
| 22:57:04 | <DigitalKiwi> | len 5П> (☭)=($) ; infixl 0 ☭ |
| 22:57:04 | <DigitalKiwi> | П> putStr ☭ "len " ++ show (length [1..5]) |
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| 22:57:06 | <DigitalKiwi> | len 5П> |
| 22:57:09 | <ggVGc> | the haskell ecosystem is already quite insane with operators |
| 22:57:42 | <ggVGc> | It probably complicates the compiler more than necessary though |
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| 22:58:30 | <ggVGc> | hpc: isn't that TH? |
| 22:58:34 | <geekosaur> | not only does it allow you to use any unicode Symbol as an operator, it has UnicodeSyntax so you can use unicode → ⇒ etc. |
| 22:58:51 | <hpc> | even TH has limitations |
| 22:58:59 | <geekosaur> | also there is a full program preprocessor mode, see the -F option |
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| 22:59:17 | <ggVGc> | wait... no? you can't use anything as operators :/ Can you? |
| 22:59:22 | <hpc> | oh, yay |
| 22:59:22 | <ggVGc> | am I having a stroke |
| 22:59:35 | <geekosaur> | monochrom demonstrated earlier |
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| 23:00:41 | <DigitalKiwi> | also you can use ligatures too if you like |
| 23:00:46 | <ggVGc> | ah, wait, maybe what I am thinking about is some characters not being available as operators because of the core language |
| 23:00:49 | <ggVGc> | like @ |
| 23:00:53 | <monochrom> | Err I think DigitalKiwi demonstrated it. :) |
| 23:01:03 | <geekosaur> | the only restriction is it must have a generalCategory of Symbol and not be something like parens |
| 23:01:04 | <monochrom> | But I can too! |
| 23:01:08 | <geekosaur> | oh yes, misread, sorry |
| 23:01:12 | <ggVGc> | well then, I guess the cat is already fully out of the bag then |
| 23:01:41 | <geekosaur> | you can't replace core syntax like @ | : though |
| 23:02:03 | <monochrom> | > let λ × µ = λ * µ in 4 × 5 |
| 23:02:04 | <lambdabot> | 20 |
| 23:02:46 | <ggVGc> | tried using unicode syntax in my Elixir work a few years ago. Didn't stick with it for long |
| 23:02:48 | <DigitalKiwi> | i think emacs will show -> as the unicode symbol → and => as ⇒ etc. pretty easily |
| 23:03:00 | <monochrom> | It has been allowed for like 20 years and the community has not abused it. This is how you know it's OK. |
| 23:03:05 | <ggVGc> | still waiting to be compelled by some example of unicode adding enough for it to be worth the hassle |
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| 23:03:26 | <DigitalKiwi> | i like that better than actually using the unicode because i can type -> but have to copy paste the unicode...but like looking at the unicode |
| 23:03:32 | <ggVGc> | DigitalKiwi: yeah, but that sucks a lot, since now you have one glyph that is actually 2 glyphs when editing |
| 23:03:37 | <ggVGc> | it's very confusing. I tried it... |
| 23:03:58 | <ggVGc> | I could never get used to it |
| 23:04:57 | <ggVGc> | monochrom: it might be time to implement a port of all of Prelude, in only unicode punctuation glyphs |
| 23:06:24 | <monochrom> | You know, as far as pointless discussions go, let's have the following instead. |
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| 23:06:42 | <monochrom> | Should "unicode" mean unicode, or should it mean "unicode minus ascii"? |
| 23:07:06 | <monochrom> | Because using the former, Prelude is already using unicode punctuations. |
| 23:07:33 | <monochrom> | Oh BTW you absolutely need to s/glyphs// , that's out of the question. |
| 23:08:19 | × | bgs quits (~bgs@212-85-160-171.dynamic.telemach.net) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 23:08:20 | <monochrom> | But usually for convenience people also say "rectangle" when they mean "excluding square", so maybe people say "unicode" when they mean "except ascii". |
| 23:08:51 | <ggVGc> | definitely "unicode" means "not ascii" for the most part for me |
| 23:09:08 | <ggVGc> | unless I'm having a technical spec discussion |
| 23:09:33 | <ggVGc> | anyway, sorry, I just started ranting to escape my physics studies I think |
| 23:10:04 | <DigitalKiwi> | * is just the unicode version of what * looks like isn't it |
| 23:10:09 | <ggVGc> | doing the last handins made me violently think about making a DSL in haskell for generating latex quicker... |
| 23:11:06 | <monochrom> | I did write code to convert haskell-land binary trees to tikz commands... |
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| 23:11:34 | <monochrom> | also to java-land binary trees haha |
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| 23:12:09 | <monochrom> | because I needed to hardcode some java-land binary trees for test cases. |
| 23:12:15 | <ggVGc> | possibly this was for a CS degree? Which makes it slightly more acceptable to write software for your homework |
| 23:12:58 | <monochrom> | I would rather think that CS homeworks are more amenable to automation. |
| 23:13:44 | <monochrom> | I wouldn't have a problem with automating philosophy homework, if there were something to automate. |
| 23:14:12 | <monochrom> | or rather, I'm a pragmatist utilitarian, so s/something to/something worthwhile to/ |
| 23:14:30 | <ggVGc> | it's not about it being okay or not. It's about if you spend time writing software to support your physics handins, it's very likely that the handing will not be handed in on time :) At leats in my case |
| 23:14:31 | <monochrom> | I guess by now GPT helps. |
| 23:14:47 | <monochrom> | Right, there you go. |
| 23:15:23 | <monochrom> | It has always been about path of least action. Pun intended. |
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| 23:26:10 | <mauke[m]> | speaking of -> and →, the default font used in Element has a special ligature that displays "->" as a rightward arrow :-( |
| 23:27:34 | <geekosaur> | yeh |
| 23:28:01 | <monochrom> | Does it also have a ligature for <- ? :) |
| 23:28:23 | <DigitalKiwi> | i'd say the bigger problem is that you're using element lol ;( |
| 23:29:02 | <mauke[m]> | what's a good alternative? |
| 23:29:05 | <DigitalKiwi> | monochrom: if not element is fascist amirite |
| 23:29:14 | <DigitalKiwi> | glirc |
| 23:29:37 | <geekosaur[m]> | `<-` |
| 23:29:53 | <geekosaur[m]> | I see no ligature |
| 23:30:04 | <geekosaur> | there are other clients for matrix |
| 23:30:36 | <mauke[m]> | DigitalKiwi: that's IRC, not Matrix |
| 23:30:50 | <DigitalKiwi> | element is just the most insecure flagship client lol |
| 23:31:09 | <geekosaur> | at some point I want to test nheko |
| 23:31:50 | <DigitalKiwi> | Logs: https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/browse/lchaskell "irc" |
| 23:31:53 | <DigitalKiwi> | seems we're on irc |
| 23:32:25 | <mauke[m]> | so far the most amazing part about Element is that Preferences > Settings > Keyboard does not let you set your keyboard preferences |
| 23:32:39 | <DigitalKiwi> | lmao |
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