Logs on 2023-01-15 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 01:21:54 | <Inst> | How familiar are people with OCaml? |
| 01:22:29 | <Inst> | Nah, I'm probably wrong here, I was thinking OCaml was an OOP language via the first-class module system |
| 01:22:59 | <geekosaur> | first class modules don't make SML/NJ OOP |
| 01:23:00 | <sshine> | OCaml has support for object-oriented programming from way back when that got you drinks at the bar, but modern OCaml does not use the object system. |
| 01:23:14 | <geekosaur> | OCaml does support OOP, but modules aren't why |
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| 01:23:17 | <sshine> | the first-class module system predates OOP support |
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| 01:24:31 | <mauke> | has ocaml grown documentation for its module system in the last 10-15 years? |
| 01:24:40 | <sshine> | OCaml OOP: https://ocaml.org/docs/objects -- it is the 'class' and 'object' keywords that make it OOP. |
| 01:25:06 | <mauke> | I've been meaning to learn about modules, but at the time there wasn't much apart from a few examples of the syntax |
| 01:25:16 | <sshine> | mauke, Real World Ocaml v2 (https://dev.realworldocaml.org/) has more to say about the module system, yes. at least there are syntactic improvements. |
| 01:26:15 | <mauke> | thanks, I'll have a look |
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| 01:31:31 | <sshine> | Inst, https://dev.realworldocaml.org/objects.html -- here's a more modern take on OCaml OOP. :) |
| 01:32:21 | <sshine> | Inst, whereas the module system is described under the chapters "Functors" and "First-Class Modules" |
| 01:32:36 | <Inst> | it's more that I was looking at the Haskell module syntax, I was wondering if Haskell modules could have bene a way to retrofit OOP in |
| 01:32:39 | <Inst> | with backpack, etc |
| 01:32:58 | <Inst> | independent of my frankenstein instinct to break all purity |
| 01:33:16 | <Inst> | i'm more wishing for a more robust module system in Haskell, or at the very least, the ability to have multiple modules in one file |
| 01:33:45 | <unit73e> | packages are the poorly designed modules imo |
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| 01:34:17 | <unit73e> | at least javascript got that mostly right |
| 01:34:55 | <sshine> | Inst, Haskell could have had a module system that more resembled MLs, but this still isn't related to OOP. |
| 01:35:22 | <Inst> | from what I read, Haskell designers somehow thought that ML module system was too fancy |
| 01:35:27 | <unit73e> | what's the difference? |
| 01:35:48 | <sshine> | unit73e, the difference between what? OOP and ML module systems? |
| 01:36:09 | <monochrom> | ocaml has a first-class OO system, and this is orthogonal to its first-class module system. :) |
| 01:36:12 | <unit73e> | sshine, between haskell modules and ML modules |
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| 01:36:37 | <unit73e> | if it's something like module blocks, yeah that would be useful |
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| 01:37:16 | <unit73e> | kind off. I can get away without those. |
| 01:38:08 | <sshine> | unit73e, ah! in ML you have higher-order modules, confusingly named functors. |
| 01:38:27 | <unit73e> | hum ok, that could be useful |
| 01:39:09 | <unit73e> | function namespace is the annoying bit in haskell, but what I do is go Javahaskell and have each file with it's own record, and just call A.function in other modules |
| 01:39:10 | <sshine> | (well, confusing to a Haskeller) |
| 01:39:38 | <unit73e> | so similar to what Java does, each class in its own file |
| 01:39:39 | <geekosaur> | just don't go the whole way and give us C and T |
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| 01:40:13 | <sshine> | what are C and T? |
| 01:40:44 | <monochrom> | My http://www.cs.utoronto.ca/~trebla/CSCC24-2022-Summer/04-haskell-types-2.html#modules happens to describe *ml module systems, if you can make sense out of the brief example. |
| 01:40:48 | <geekosaur> | a certain infamous Haskeller names every typeclass C and every type T because the module name is enough to distinguish. until you haddock it |
| 01:40:59 | <unit73e> | oof, no I don't do that |
| 01:41:13 | <unit73e> | often I don't need qualifiers, I just do that in case I need |
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| 01:41:17 | <sshine> | unit73e, you get some of the same modularity with type classes, but not at the package level. |
| 01:41:48 | <sshine> | geekosaur, ah. I tried making every statement I make on IRC "S", as my intent should be evident from the context, but people didn't get it. |
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| 01:42:26 | <monochrom> | BTW because of this I have a personal beef that other Haskellers have beef against writing *.hs-boot for mutually importing modules. *.hs-boot is no harder than writing module sigs in *ml which is considered normal daily activity. |
| 01:42:34 | <unit73e> | what I usually do is copy the structure of some other more experience haskeler, for example, I was making an archiver, for RGSS, so my inspiration was Tar |
| 01:42:44 | <unit73e> | because Tar looked decent code |
| 01:43:30 | <unit73e> | but just the structure. I use more modern haskell with monad transformers, and Tar has some legacy. |
| 01:44:21 | <talismanick> | How might I draw a screen-width rectangle under Wayland without GTK? What are my options besides Gloss? |
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| 01:45:36 | <talismanick> | Draw a screenwidth rectangle and render unicode text on it, I should say |
| 01:47:28 | <sshine> | https://people.mpi-sws.org/~rossberg/papers/Rossberg%20-%201ML%20--%20Core%20and%20modules%20united%20[JFP].pdf -- I'd like to see this taken further. it's basically ML modules and values married into one. |
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| 01:48:29 | <unit73e> | talismanick, you mean, vector graphics? or something else? because you can draw rectangles in many ways with multiple libraries. say opengl, vulkan, software, sdl, gloss, etc |
| 01:49:47 | <talismanick> | unit73e: Right, multiple ways to render it, but which is the right level of abstraction for displaying it without window controls and making it screenwidth and attached to the top or bottom? |
| 01:50:11 | <talismanick> | and rendering text inside of it, as a status bar (like xmobar) |
| 01:50:34 | <talismanick> | If I can get that, the rest should be a piece of cake |
| 01:51:20 | <unit73e> | talismanick, so you want to make a status bar? like xmobar? |
| 01:51:33 | <unit73e> | but for wayland |
| 01:51:34 | <unit73e> | not X |
| 01:51:38 | <talismanick> | Yeah, exactly |
| 01:52:48 | <talismanick> | I know how to write CLI programs and REST APIs, but I don't touch GUIs much |
| 01:55:12 | <talismanick> | https://sheaf.gitlab.io/fir/index.html looks really interesting, but a bit too low level for my purposes |
| 01:57:18 | <unit73e> | talismanick, I don't know much about wayland, but how about looking how others did it? like swaybar, or waybar? you're going to run into interoperability problems like having tray icons, so might as well inspire on those projects, but in haskell. |
| 01:57:36 | <unit73e> | it would be a cool project |
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| 01:58:24 | <talismanick> | That sounds like it could be a rabbit hole - just unicode characters with font choice and coloring would be a good start, imo |
| 01:58:35 | <talismanick> | maybe once I have something working |
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| 02:00:37 | <unit73e> | a basic opengl library would be enough to draw a rectangle, but I think you're going to find out you need GTK stuff (or KDE) |
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| 02:01:29 | <unit73e> | or use wlroots |
| 02:01:31 | <talismanick> | unit73e: Even for sizing, anchoring, and text rendering? |
| 02:01:42 | <talismanick> | Yeah, I was planning to stick with wlroots |
| 02:03:05 | <unit73e> | afaik wlroots can draw rectangles, but I don't think there's an haskell module |
| 02:03:29 | <unit73e> | you'd have to make one yourself |
| 02:03:32 | <talismanick> | There's hsroots, but that was last updated in 2019 |
| 02:03:42 | <unit73e> | at least there's something :p |
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| 02:04:34 | <talismanick> | I've heard praise for Haskell's C FFI. Is there best practice for using it? Handle C values with levity polymorphism? |
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| 02:11:52 | <talismanick> | :( |
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| 02:14:47 | <talismanick> | Oof, it depends on the lower-level deprecated Hayland bindings... |
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| 02:31:02 | <Inst> | not going to admit I looked this guy up, but it's pretty good, there's an educator in Hyderabad who showed up on #haskell-beginners on Discord |
| 02:31:19 | <Inst> | he sells a bunch of training videos, will be interesting to see him shilling Haskell to Indians |
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| 02:50:27 | <talismanick> | Nice, there are gi-gtk bindings for the gtk-layer-shell Wayland protocol. Might go with that, then. |
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| 03:11:31 | <fizbin> | I just revisited a project from 2+ years ago and fixed some bugs; don't know if anyone here is really interested in regex processing but here's a short command line program that'll determine whether two regular expressions are equivalent (and if not, will find a string that one regex matches and the other does not): https://gist.github.com/fizbin/8267ff9dbc15c6564214aa4cea6d0cb0 |
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| 03:18:59 | <fizbin> | I do feel like the function 'firstJust' at https://gist.github.com/fizbin/8267ff9dbc15c6564214aa4cea6d0cb0#file-regexequiv-hs-L172-L187 could be generalized somehow, or made with generic components, but when I tried to make Work an Applicative and make it out of "liftA2 (<|>)", I wound up with one of those evil things that typechecks but is not correct. |
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| 04:16:13 | <[Leary]> | fizbin: Like a parser eating too much input, your `Work` `Applicative` presumably builds up `Work` from the lost branches of the `Alternative`. You might want something like `try :: Work (Maybe a) -> Work (Maybe a); try = maybe (pure Nothing) <$> const <*> finish` so you can do `try x <|> y`. |
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| 04:18:28 | <[Leary]> | Err, with (<|>) corresponding to that of `MaybeT Work`, I guess. |
| 04:18:46 | <[Leary]> | Which you might just want to use anyway. |
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| 06:22:59 | <fizbin> | [Leary]: That wouldn't work, I don't think. I want the result of the thing that returns a "Just" after stripping off the minimal number of layers of "Work", and near as I can tell that function requires me to finish all of "x" |
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| 07:23:17 | <[Leary]> | fizbin: Ah, I misread the intention of `firstJust`. Your `foldr firstJust` is doing something like `minimumBy depthOfWork`, but with a sort of geometrically-balanced search, rather than depth first or breadth first... You could do something like `type Work a = [Maybe a]; work = (Nothing:); done x = [Just x]; finish = asum; firstJust = zipWith (<|>)` (or the same but an abstract newtype in a second module). |
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| 07:28:19 | <talismanick> | Say I have monadic code that looks like this: https://0x0.st/o7dw.txt |
| 07:29:02 | <talismanick> | How might I deduplicate so the return value from `valGen` gets passed along in turn to each of the functions without me writing it out? |
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| 07:30:57 | <talismanick> | Something kind of like Kleisli composition? |
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| 07:35:18 | <talismanick> | Or, rather, bind-as-relation (one to many instead of one to one) |
| 07:35:34 | <c_wraith> | talismanick: I... wouldn't bother changing it |
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| 07:35:56 | <c_wraith> | talismanick: there are ways to rewrite it, but I don't think they'd aid understanding in this case |
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| 07:41:42 | <[Leary]> | talismanick: If you're passing `val` in a lot of places, you might want `ReaderT`. |
| 07:41:55 | <c_wraith> | talismanick: in simpler cases, things like (<*) and (<$) can help, but I don't think they do anything good here. |
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| 07:53:03 | <[Leary]> | talismanick: You could also write, say, `fa <<* afb = fa >>= \a -> a <$ afb a; infixl 4 <<*`; it's not an entirely unreasonable operator. |
| 07:59:51 | <[Leary]> | fizbin: Oh, that should have been `firstJust (x:xs) (y:ys) = x:y:firstJust xs ys; firstJust xs ys = xs ++ ys`; `liftA2 (<|>)` would be breadth first. |
| 08:00:49 | <[Leary]> | This might all be easier with ... what was it, LogicT? |
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| 08:51:36 | <Guest|91> | Could someone to help me installing Haskell? |
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| 08:59:05 | <laalyn> | I could try :) |
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| 09:08:23 | <[exa]> | Guest52: what's the problem? |
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| 09:44:44 | <talismanick> | What does `show @Milli . realToFrac` mean? What do I import so it compiles? What GHC extension? |
| 09:45:22 | <talismanick> | (well, I know it means to represent the number in some format when it gets cast into a string, but the rest is a mystery) |
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| 09:51:29 | <talismanick> | [Leary]: Thanks for the suggestion, but I think c_wraith is right for now. Really, what I need are higher-power abstractions to pull parts out of IO or otherwise wrap them into clean, composable units |
| 09:53:08 | <[exa]> | talismanick: that looks like a type application, telling `show` what instance of Show to use (thus also forcing `realToFrac` to know what to ouput) |
| 09:53:24 | <Hecate> | -XTypeApplications |
| 09:53:27 | <Hecate> | indeed |
| 09:53:39 | <Hecate> | talismanick: https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/type_applications.html |
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| 09:55:34 | <[exa]> | normally without the application you'd either have an ambiguity (or maybe a surprising default on Fractional+Show), or you'd have to use some gadget to force the type such as `show . (id :: Milli->Milli) . realToFrac` |
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| 09:59:16 | <mauke> | `show @Milli` seems a bit pointless when you can get the same effect with `\x -> show (x :: Milli)` or `show . (\x -> x :: Milli)` without any language extensions |
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| 10:07:42 | <Hecate> | mauke: lol |
| 10:07:55 | <Hecate> | mauke: don't say that, he might think you're serious :P |
| 10:08:39 | <mauke> | ? I am serious |
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| 10:13:18 | ← | L29Ah parts (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) () |
| 10:14:19 | <talismanick> | mauke: You need ScopedTypeVariables for that |
| 10:14:37 | <mauke> | why? |
| 10:14:44 | talismanick | shrugs |
| 10:14:55 | <talismanick> | It's a scoped type variable |
| 10:15:00 | <mauke> | none of the examples shown use any type variables |
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| 10:16:10 | <mauke> | am I on drugs or is everyone else? |
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| 10:21:05 | <Hecate> | pretty sure (\x -> show (x :: Milli)) . realToFrac doesn't need ScopedTypeVariables |
| 10:21:22 | <Hecate> | but it's still considerably more burdensome than show @Milli |
| 10:22:47 | <mauke> | but less burdensome than {-# LANGUAGE TypeApplications #-} show @Milli |
| 10:23:56 | gnalzo | thinks this is a question of taste :) |
| 10:23:57 | <xerox> | talismanick: here's some examples: https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/scoped_type_variables.html#extension-ScopedTypeVariables |
| 10:25:33 | <talismanick> | ah, you're right - I'm confusing it with the time I did have to use that extension (with similar syntax) |
| 10:28:59 | <Hecate> | mauke: no |
| 10:29:01 | <Hecate> | :P |
| 10:29:14 | <Hecate> | gnalzo: :) |
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| 10:48:33 | <Reinhilde> | e |
| 10:49:55 | <mauke> | https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=%65&iax=images&ia=images |
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| 13:03:46 | <Guest5476> | Identity function with special treatment to Bool values: https://play-haskell.tomsmeding.com/saved/XrMtxzfx |
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| 14:26:50 | <ncf> | do you have a permit for breaking parametricity? |
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| 14:28:01 | <Inst_> | question about short cricuiting in other languages |
| 14:28:04 | <Inst_> | do they use the thunk model? |
| 14:28:20 | <Inst_> | I'm describing laziness to some new developer who's trying to get their first job with Python as "everything short-circuits" |
| 14:28:31 | <ncf> | not necessarily; C has short-circuiting operators but no thunks |
| 14:28:38 | <Inst_> | ah |
| 14:28:43 | Inst_ | is now known as Inst |
| 14:28:45 | <Inst> | oh well |
| 14:28:48 | <Inst> | close enough, I guess |
| 14:29:38 | <geekosaur> | "everything short-circuits" isn't quite right either. how does that explain Control.Monad.when? |
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| 14:31:09 | <geekosaur> | it also doesn't work if multiple parameters are strict |
| 14:31:20 | <geekosaur> | well, even if one is |
| 14:31:39 | <Inst> | why does when matter? |
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| 14:32:00 | <Inst> | evaluate the boolean, then if the boolean is true, substitute pure () with the appllicative |
| 14:34:42 | <geekosaur> | laziness is why it doesn't evaluate the thunk before looking at the boolean |
| 14:34:58 | <int-e> | I'd call it on-demand evaluation. Boolean short-circuiting is a special case of that. But it still won't tell you what exactly constitutes "demand". |
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| 14:43:07 | <Inst> | it doesn't matter, the python guy doesn't even understand the "if it compiles, ship it" joke and the "if it compiles, it works" semi-joke |
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| 14:59:53 | <eldritchcookie[4> | how can i make it sure that a file generated by template haskell is included in the final package? |
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| 15:07:21 | <eldritchcookie[4> | basically can i make a autogenerated file be mentioned in the includes? |
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| 15:16:13 | <lyxia> | eldritchcookie[4: there is an extra-sources-files field in cabal, it doesn't care where the files come from, they just have to be there when running "cabal sdist" |
| 15:25:43 | <eldritchcookie[4> | does it keep include-dirs automatically? |
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| 15:27:19 | <eldritchcookie[4> | or do i need to also mention them in extra source files? |
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| 17:08:59 | <fendor[m]> | is there a yaml parsing library that lets me warn if my document contains unknown fields? |
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| 17:18:07 | <[exa]> | fendor[m]: the yamlish aeson variant doesn't explode on unknown fields? |
| 17:19:22 | <fendor[m]> | aeson doesn't, so yaml won't either, afaict. |
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| 17:21:41 | <fendor[m]> | By unknown field, I mean a field that isn't necessary for parsing. Parsing is successful, and the unknown field is simply not parsed into any data structure |
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| 17:27:51 | <[exa]> | fendor[m]: well as a complete workaround you may format the data structure back to aeson Value and diff it |
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| 17:32:19 | <fendor[m]> | [exa] sounds like a pretty good idea. It forces me to add a ToJSON instance, but it seems easier to maintain than other solution from stack overflow |
| 17:33:12 | <[exa]> | like, if the constraint you want to fit in is "no ignored fields ever", this is it |
| 17:34:27 | <Guest5476> | lmao, why this behaves in such a strange way? https://play-haskell.tomsmeding.com/saved/bCe7WkVe |
| 17:34:59 | <fendor[m]> | yeah, I think warning would be the better behaviour, now let's just hope I am never parsing files that have a few MB |
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| 17:50:02 | <[exa]> | fendor[m]: actually if you compare the Values reasonably, it's gonna lazy-stream |
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| 17:52:08 | <[exa]> | Guest5476: wow okay, interesting |
| 17:53:19 | <[exa]> | looks like it doesn't really see your instance, for whatever reason |
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| 18:01:44 | <Guest5476> | No, that's expected behavior: https://serokell.io/blog/uncaught-exception-handling |
| 18:01:59 | <Guest5476> | [exa] ^ |
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| 18:35:17 | <[exa]> | Guest5476: oh wow ok |
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| 18:55:22 | <juri_> | I have a comparison in my program, that compares a value against the sum of a series of guaranteed to be positive values. is there a way i can abuse applicative to evaluate the series of positive values such that when the comparison is greater, it stops summing the applicatives, and evaluating their expensive generation functions? |
| 18:57:02 | <geekosaur> | asum over First? |
| 18:57:07 | <geekosaur> | maybe |
| 18:57:20 | <geekosaur> | hm, nom that's per element, not collecting |
| 18:57:28 | <geekosaur> | s/nom/no, |
| 19:01:10 | <geekosaur> | not sure you can do that with Applicative, actually, would need Monad |
| 19:03:02 | <juri_> | hmm. i guess i'd have to learn how monad works. fun! :) |
| 19:03:25 | <juri_> | (i am a simple haskeller, really. :) ) |
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| 22:43:30 | <Guest94> | Hi all, im beginner in Haskell and have a question about function composition (.) operator. Say I have this code: |
| 22:43:30 | <Guest94> | firstPart = (<> " ") |
| 22:43:31 | <Guest94> | compose = (<>) . firstPart |
| 22:43:31 | <Guest94> | compose "hi" "john" |
| 22:43:32 | <Guest94> | ghci> "hi john" |
| 22:43:32 | <Guest94> | Im confused at (<>) is a 2 args function. Is it that natural to compose different no. of args function together? |
| 22:43:33 | <Guest94> | Secondly, I tried to apply the args on the same line with the composition, but it gives me error, even though I have the application operator (&): |
| 22:43:33 | <Guest94> | partial = (<>) . firstPart & "hi" |
| 22:43:34 | <Guest94> | partial = (<>) . firstPart & "hi" "john" |
| 22:43:34 | <Guest94> | partial = (<>) . firstPart "hi" "john" |
| 22:43:41 | <Guest94> | any help is much appreciated! |
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| 22:45:28 | <sshine> | Guest94, hi |
| 22:46:04 | <sshine> | Guest94, (<> " ") is syntax sugar for (\s -> s <> " ") |
| 22:46:26 | <sshine> | Guest94, (" " <>) is syntax sugar for (\s -> " " <> s) |
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| 22:47:45 | <sshine> | Guest94, the reason you can't write (<>) . is, as you say, it's a two-argument function. |
| 22:48:48 | <sshine> | well, you can write it, but... |
| 22:48:52 | <sshine> | :t ((<>) .) |
| 22:48:53 | <lambdabot> | Semigroup a1 => (a2 -> a1) -> a2 -> a1 -> a1 |
| 22:50:05 | <Guest94> | sshine I don't get what you mean, I can still write |
| 22:50:05 | <Guest94> | compose = (<>) . firstPart |
| 22:50:06 | <Guest94> | compose "hi" "john" |
| 22:50:06 | <Guest94> | and the result is "hi john" |
| 22:50:54 | × | Unicorn_Princess quits (~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 22:50:55 | <Guest94> | but I didn't want to bind (<>) . firstPart to the variable compose |
| 22:51:46 | <sshine> | I'm a little confused. what do you wanna do then? :) |
| 22:51:50 | <Guest94> | I wanted to directly pass args right after the composition, and it failed, I tried all 3 ways: |
| 22:51:51 | <Guest94> | (<>) . firstPart & "hi" |
| 22:51:51 | <Guest94> | (<>) . firstPart & "hi" "john" |
| 22:51:52 | <Guest94> | (<>) . firstPart "hi" "john" |
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| 22:52:43 | <geekosaur> | @let firstPart = (<> " ") |
| 22:52:45 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
| 22:53:06 | <geekosaur> | > ((<>) . firstpart) "hi" "john" |
| 22:53:08 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 22:53:08 | <lambdabot> | • Variable not in scope: firstpart :: [Char] -> [Char] |
| 22:53:08 | <lambdabot> | • Perhaps you meant ‘firstPart’ (line 202) |
| 22:53:14 | <geekosaur> | > ((<>) . firstPart) "hi" "john" |
| 22:53:16 | <lambdabot> | "hi john" |
| 22:53:31 | <sshine> | > (((<>) . (<> " ")) "hi") "john" |
| 22:53:33 | <lambdabot> | "hi john" |
| 22:54:01 | <geekosaur> | & does not help you here because the "hi" "john" part following it is treated as a function application, but "hi" isn't a function |
| 22:54:59 | <sshine> | > intercalate " " ["hi", "john"] -- :o |
| 22:55:01 | <lambdabot> | "hi john" |
| 22:55:10 | <xerox> | > unwords ["hi","john"] |
| 22:55:13 | <lambdabot> | "hi john" |
| 22:55:32 | <sshine> | > "hi john" |
| 22:55:35 | <lambdabot> | "hi john" |
| 22:55:40 | <Guest94> | geekosaur yours work. Could anyone explain why all my 3 ways failed? |
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| 22:56:14 | <Guest94> | (<>) . firstPart "hi" "john" |
| 22:56:15 | <Guest94> | (<>) . firstPart & "hi" |
| 22:56:15 | <Guest94> | (<>) . firstPart & "hi" "john" |
| 22:57:17 | <sshine> | Guest94, (&) is for reverse function application, i.e. the function comes after. so since "hi" is not a function, that won't work. |
| 22:57:51 | <sshine> | Guest94, the first one won't work because it gets interpreted as: (<>) . (firstPart "hi" "john"), but firstPart only takes one argument. |
| 22:59:17 | <sshine> | Guest94, considering geekosaur's: ((<>) . firstPart) "hi" "john" -- here, (<>) . (<> " ") :: [Char] -> [Char] -> [Char], i.e. it's a function that takes two curried arguments, which it's given. |
| 22:59:45 | <Guest94> | sshine interesting, I just learned that & is about precedence. Effectively i expected & would make the composition (<>) . firstPart higher than the function application firstPart "hi". Meaning, I expect the composition happen, ONLY AFTER that will it apply the args to the composition. |
| 23:00:18 | <sshine> | Guest94, you're looking for $ if you want the function to live on the left-hand side. |
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| 23:01:00 | <sshine> | Guest94, but if you do (<>) . (<> " ") $ "hi" "john" -- you get the problem that geekosaur explained. |
| 23:01:14 | <sshine> | ("hi" isn't a function) |
| 23:01:15 | <Guest94> | you are right! I mistook & to $ |
| 23:03:54 | <sshine> | f . g = \x -> f (g x) |
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| 23:05:02 | <Guest94> | Im starting to get it. But one more confusing point. Could you tell me why this NOT work? |
| 23:05:03 | <Guest94> | (<>) . firstPart $ "hi" "john" |
| 23:05:11 | <sshine> | I just did |
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| 23:05:21 | <sshine> | firstPart = (<> " ") |
| 23:05:42 | <sshine> | it will first try to apply "hi" as a function to "john" |
| 23:05:56 | <sshine> | > "hi" "john" |
| 23:05:58 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 23:05:58 | <lambdabot> | • Couldn't match expected type ‘[Char] -> t’ |
| 23:05:58 | <lambdabot> | with actual type ‘[Char]’ |
| 23:05:59 | <geekosaur> | $ applies the next expression, not an arbitrary number of parameters |
| 23:06:21 | <geekosaur> | The next expression looks like a function application, except that "hi" isn't a function so it fails |
| 23:06:36 | <geekosaur> | :t (&) |
| 23:06:38 | <lambdabot> | a -> (a -> b) -> b |
| 23:06:50 | <Guest94> | ok that makes sense. I need to read up on $ operator |
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| 23:07:15 | <geekosaur> | (&) is ($) only reversed, so the error is even weirder because you gave it as <function> & <parameters> but it expects <parameter> & <function> |
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| 23:07:40 | <Guest94> | essentially, the book im reading only mentioned that $ is to demote the precedence of firstPart "hi", and focus the precedence on the composition of (<>) . firstPart |
| 23:08:22 | <Guest94> | and so I could understand that I can bind like this: |
| 23:08:22 | <Guest94> | partial = (<>) . firstPart $ "hi" |
| 23:08:23 | <Guest94> | partial "john" |
| 23:08:23 | <Guest94> | >> "hi john" |
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| 23:09:05 | <Guest94> | but I never realize that |
| 23:09:05 | <Guest94> | (<>) . firstPart $ "hi" "john" |
| 23:09:06 | <Guest94> | would consider "hi" a function |
| 23:09:35 | <sshine> | yes |
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| 23:10:20 | <sshine> | because f $ x is f(x), so f $ x y is f(x y), and 'x y' is x applied as a function to y. |
| 23:10:33 | <sshine> | here, (<>) . firstPart is f |
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| 23:11:48 | <sshine> | you don't want f("hi"("john")) :) |
| 23:12:05 | <Guest94> | because f $ x is f(x), so f $ x y is f(x y), and 'x y' is x applied as a function to y. |
| 23:12:10 | <Guest94> | that makes a lot of sense! |
| 23:12:37 | <sshine> | it's easier to see when you set f = (<>) . firstPart -- there's a lot of syntax sugar to distract from the simple function application that follows it. |
| 23:12:41 | <Guest94> | now i have a better understand of $ is the f(x). I was tunneled in thinking it was to demote precedence |
| 23:13:06 | <sshine> | if it's any help, you can *always* use parentheses instead of $. |
| 23:13:59 | <Guest94> | sshine geekosaur thank you for your help |
| 23:15:09 | <geekosaur> | it does demote precedence, usually. but function application has a fixed high precedence that $ can't touch |
| 23:15:31 | <geekosaur> | so `"hi" "there"` continues to look like a function application |
| 23:16:05 | <Guest94> | ok thank you |
| 23:16:07 | <geekosaur> | > (<>) . firstPart $ "hi" $ "john" |
| 23:16:09 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 23:16:09 | <lambdabot> | • Couldn't match expected type ‘[Char] -> [Char]’ |
| 23:16:09 | <lambdabot> | with actual type ‘[Char]’ |
| 23:17:01 | <sshine> | yeah, the space between "hi" and "john" can be seen as an operator with the highest precedence. |
| 23:17:11 | <sshine> | (function application) |
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| 23:17:33 | <geekosaur> | and that one failed because it applies to the wrong thing |
| 23:17:41 | <geekosaur> | % :info & |
| 23:17:41 | <yahb2> | <interactive>:1:1: error: Not in scope: ‘&’ |
| 23:17:43 | <Guest94> | say `f = (<>) . firstPart` |
| 23:17:44 | <Guest94> | so why does this fail |
| 23:17:44 | <Guest94> | f $ "hi" $ "john" |
| 23:17:53 | <Guest94> | say `f = (<>) . firstPart` |
| 23:17:53 | <Guest94> | so why does this fail |
| 23:17:54 | <Guest94> | `f $ "hi" $ "john"` |
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| 23:18:12 | <geekosaur> | :t firstPart $ "hi" $ "john" |
| 23:18:13 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 23:18:13 | <lambdabot> | • Couldn't match expected type ‘[Char] -> [Char]’ |
| 23:18:13 | <lambdabot> | with actual type ‘[Char]’ |
| 23:18:30 | <sshine> | f $ "hi" $ "john" => f ("hi" ("john")) when you wanted (f "hi") "john" so you could say it failed because $ is right-associative. |
| 23:19:03 | <geekosaur> | % import Data.Function |
| 23:19:04 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 23:19:10 | <geekosaur> | % :info & |
| 23:19:10 | <yahb2> | (&) :: a -> (a -> b) -> b -- Defined in ‘Data.Function’ ; infixl 1 & |
| 23:19:22 | <geekosaur> | % :info $ |
| 23:19:22 | <yahb2> | ($) :: (a -> b) -> a -> b -- Defined in ‘GHC.Base’ ; infixr 0 $ |
| 23:19:51 | <Guest94> | why it's not `f("hi) ("john)` but `f ("hi" ("john"))` |
| 23:19:58 | <sshine> | > let f = (<>) . (<> " ") in "john" & ("hi" & f) |
| 23:20:00 | <lambdabot> | "hi john" |
| 23:20:27 | <Guest94> | i think `"hi"` get consider as a function |
| 23:21:06 | <sshine> | yes |
| 23:21:12 | <anatta> | yes, because $ is weak |
| 23:21:37 | <Guest94> | i think i am pusing it too far, and noone really writes `f & "hi" & "john |
| 23:21:41 | <anatta> | you could say that everything to the right is evaluated first |
| 23:21:46 | <Guest94> | i think i am pusing it too far, and noone really writes `f & "hi" & "john` |
| 23:22:18 | <geekosaur> | many people think using $ is a bad idea, because this is so confusing |
| 23:22:23 | <anatta> | so if you write f $ "hi" $ "john" it starts by evaluating "john", which is all well and good, but then it tries everything to the right of the second one, which is "hi" "john" |
| 23:22:58 | <hpc> | the right answer is to parenthesize everything, since everyone already knows lisp :P |
| 23:23:19 | sshine | is now known as john |
| 23:23:23 | <anatta> | the right answer is to go bird watching |
| 23:23:33 | <anatta> | ;) |
| 23:23:39 | john | is now known as sshine |
| 23:24:40 | <Guest94> | so everyone prefers paranthesis over $? Im new to haskell, so idk which people usually use (I definitely would go for parenthesis after this discussion) |
| 23:25:11 | <sshine> | it depends |
| 23:25:11 | <anatta> | in your case I'd argue the problem is more that you're using contrived functions |
| 23:25:43 | <geekosaur> | not everyone, but especially for beginners it's a good idea because of things like this |
| 23:25:51 | <anatta> | like, you could write what you want as f s1 s2 = s1 <> " " <> s2 |
| 23:25:55 | <anatta> | and everything would be fine |
| 23:26:47 | <Guest94> | that's way better. I was trying to be idiomatic |
| 23:26:50 | <hpc> | my general rule is when i am writing code, it's not to be read by a computer but by the next person to edit it |
| 23:26:59 | <hpc> | so i just write whatever i will be able to make sense of a week from now |
| 23:27:08 | <anatta> | <> is generally an infix operator |
| 23:27:28 | <hpc> | or as i like to say it, "make code look like what it does" |
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| 23:28:00 | <Guest94> | thank you everyone |
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| 23:29:13 | <anatta> | sometimes it's difficult to know what looks weird because you're just not used to it yet, and what looks weird because you're doing something wrong =) |
| 23:29:35 | <anatta> | it happens to me as well, all the time |
| 23:30:13 | <Guest94> | :) |
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All times are in UTC on 2023-01-15.