Logs on 2023-01-21 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 01:09:33 | <unit73e> | hello |
| 01:10:00 | <geekosaur> | hello |
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| 01:10:22 | <unit73e> | I came up with an excelent idea. in order to distinguish the best devs, you get them drunk and make them code |
| 01:10:34 | <unit73e> | if the code is still good, they're good developers |
| 01:10:36 | <unit73e> | thoughts? |
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| 01:11:47 | <unit73e> | unfortunately only devs would get the drunk dev contest |
| 01:12:29 | <geekosaur> | cue "Ballmer peak" |
| 01:12:38 | <unit73e> | kek yup |
| 01:13:04 | <hpc> | it's a very narrow peak |
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| 01:13:27 | <unit73e> | that's why it's a cool competition, you need to get just the right amoung of drunk |
| 01:14:10 | <unit73e> | unironically I think it would work in interviews |
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| 01:29:17 | <energizer> | seems like it's just adding a disturbance to the measurement. why not make them code under normal conditions instead |
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| 01:33:13 | <geekosaur> | not sure I want to meet the Gallegher Plus ( Robots Have No Tails ) of coding |
| 01:33:53 | <c_wraith> | I've written an entire Haskell library while drunk. |
| 01:34:06 | <c_wraith> | .... I did write the tests before going out that night. |
| 01:34:23 | <unit73e> | hehe I'm not being totally serious, but sometimes interviewers can fool you, but when drunk you will show your actual experience |
| 01:34:57 | <boxscape_> | you might accidentally test for ability to pretend drinking alcohol |
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| 01:36:02 | <unit73e> | haskell is an excellent programming language for the drunk competition |
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| 01:37:56 | <unit73e> | having said that, I actually got lucky with my team, they're all good, and it's a multi-cultural team |
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| 04:58:16 | <maerwald[m]> | Interviews especially in Haskell are usually a terrible session of useless riddles to make the interviewer feel smart and cover their complete lack of knowledge on how to select candidates |
| 05:00:14 | <dsal> | That's unfortunate. I'd expect more "can you write code that takes this input and tells us this stuff?" |
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| 05:05:14 | <EvanR> | I had some guys ask me about how to implement a text editor |
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| 05:05:27 | <EvanR> | efficiently |
| 05:06:12 | <EvanR> | I didn't think to ask them if they knew |
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| 05:09:52 | <dsal> | I had that interview at Google. Pretty far from things I know how to do. |
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| 05:12:04 | <slack1256> | How do you get an interview at google? I guess linkedin is not one of them. |
| 05:12:40 | <dsal> | Probably not the best time to interview at Google. |
| 05:15:16 | <EvanR> | dang, I hate to hear google never found anyone to work on their text editor |
| 05:15:23 | <EvanR> | that they are working on |
| 05:15:27 | <EvanR> | for some reason |
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| 05:17:15 | <dsal> | haha |
| 05:17:41 | <dsal> | There was at least one internal text editor I used occasionally, but it'd mostly been replaced last I saw. |
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| 05:19:27 | <energizer> | Xi editor was briefly at google https://xi-editor.io/docs/rope_science_00.html |
| 05:19:46 | <energizer> | and had that very cool series of posts on implementation |
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| 05:44:16 | <Axman6> | I'vew wanted a rope like structor for arrays for a while, but just because it's cool, not because I have a use for it |
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| 05:45:18 | <Axman6> | anatta: keeping up the theme of replying way later than is reasonable, that function is just inits: |
| 05:45:25 | <Axman6> | > inits "Hello" |
| 05:45:27 | <lambdabot> | ["","H","He","Hel","Hell","Hello"] |
| 05:45:34 | <Axman6> | @src inits |
| 05:45:34 | <lambdabot> | inits [] = [[]] |
| 05:45:34 | <lambdabot> | inits (x:xs) = [[]] ++ map (x:) (inits xs) |
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| 05:51:25 | <anatta> | Axman6: yeah - but it seemed like cheating to use the built-in :p |
| 05:51:35 | <anatta> | the implementation looks pretty nice though |
| 05:52:06 | <anatta> | I don't think I would have come up with it |
| 05:53:50 | <Axman6> | yeah it's not exactly obvious, the fact it produces things lazily is very nice |
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| 06:31:08 | <maerwald[m]> | EvanR: I always thought it would only be fair of the interview is two ways. I wanna test their knowledge too. So go ahead and prepare some overly specific questions as well of the domain you're most proficient in. |
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| 06:36:55 | <maerwald[m]> | And bombing the candidate with tough questions and live coding is a good way to never get a high performance ADHD coder in your team |
| 06:37:31 | <maerwald[m]> | So you're basically filtering a very specific type of coder and you don't even know it |
| 06:37:39 | <maerwald[m]> | It's not intelligence or skill though |
| 06:38:40 | <maerwald[m]> | It's similar to how university works with exams. It's total BS. |
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| 10:32:28 | <curious-user> | hi, why StateT s m a is (s -> m (a, s)) and not (m (State s a)) similar to MaybeT? |
| 10:33:59 | <maerwald> | StateT is more similar to ReaderT than MaybeT |
| 10:34:05 | <maerwald> | so not sure that's a useful question |
| 10:34:21 | <maerwald> | you need an initial state and then pass the intermediate steps through |
| 10:35:37 | <maerwald> | ah, sorry, I misread |
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| 10:36:11 | <maerwald> | well, you would have your initial state inside the monad |
| 10:36:15 | <maerwald> | which is unfortunate |
| 10:37:05 | <maerwald> | s -> m (a, s) is not the same as m (s -> (s, a)) |
| 10:40:45 | <[exa]> | the `(s->m (a,s))` view can be read as "`s` can choose what internal monadic operations to run", which is slightly different from `(m (s -> (s,a))` aka `m (State s a)` which you can read as "you run `m` to get a stateful computation that can't use `m`" |
| 10:41:34 | <[exa]> | :t runStateT <--- spoiler |
| 10:41:35 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 10:41:35 | <lambdabot> | parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets) |
| 10:41:48 | <[exa]> | oh noes, stupid me. :D |
| 10:42:03 | <[exa]> | :t runStateT -- this should show the relation. |
| 10:42:05 | <lambdabot> | StateT s m a -> s -> m (a, s) |
| 10:42:07 | <maerwald> | [exa]: it's kinda the difference between applicative and monad |
| 10:44:09 | <[exa]> | yeah that's a good view too |
| 10:49:13 | <curious-user> | maerwald: [exa] got it, thank you! |
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| 16:31:24 | <pagnol> | It's unfortunately quiet in here |
| 16:32:32 | <geekosaur> | happens, especially on weekends |
| 16:35:35 | <pagnol> | I'd like to ask: I assume a lof of you rely on procedural languages for your day-to-day work. How does your knowledge of pure FP influence the way you program in regular languages? |
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| 16:41:13 | <hpc> | when i run into one of the more notoriously "hard" things to deal with like concurrency or parsing some custom format, it's no longer that big a deal |
| 16:41:50 | <hpc> | because i know how it's done properly, and i can avoid all the problems of if i just wrote it carelessly in whatever style that other language prefers |
| 16:43:38 | <hpc> | at this point, i don't even really think anything of it |
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| 16:49:35 | <pagnol> | I'm not sure I follow |
| 16:50:02 | <geekosaur> | write as if you're still programming in Haskell |
| 16:50:34 | <geekosaur> | the language won't force you to do things correctly, but if you're already used to doing so then you'll write correct and reliable code |
| 16:50:35 | <pagnol> | how do you do that? without typeclasses, immutability etc.? |
| 16:51:08 | <hpc> | you don't need immutability to just not reassign things |
| 16:51:26 | <geekosaur> | that's an example of the language not forcing you to do it right |
| 16:52:55 | <hpc> | controlling where you put your IO is another one |
| 16:53:32 | <pagnol> | agreed |
| 16:53:42 | <hpc> | even in haskell that's still mostly discipline, the types just nag you every step of the way |
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| 16:55:23 | <dsal> | I started programming in go a long time ago and basically just wrote all my go code in erlang. |
| 16:55:43 | <pagnol> | What does erlangy Go look like? |
| 16:56:02 | <dsal> | You have a goroutine that's reading from a channel and all state changes are commands that come across that channel. |
| 16:57:07 | <dsal> | You don't have supervisors and other useful bits, but you have a really clear and obviously correct (and testable) way to change stuff and observe changes. |
| 16:57:55 | <dsal> | In Haskell, I've got pretty complicated concurrent state I'm managing with composable STM bits. If I had to do this in another language, I'd just write bugs. |
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| 16:58:53 | <dsal> | Luckily, my day job is writing Haskell, so I don't have to do this kind of thing at the moment. :) |
| 16:59:49 | <pagnol> | you remind me that I want to read up on STM |
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| 17:00:31 | <dsal> | At my last job, I used to annoy my coworkers by using go's quickcheck thing for a lot of my tests. I found a lot of bugs using that, but most people didn't think that way and go's quickcheck tools are excessively primitive so that didn't help either. |
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| 17:01:41 | <dsal> | STM is annoyingly easy to think about. It does exist in some other languages, but you have to be super careful to use it correctly. One of Haskell's greatest strengths is in allowing you to limit what people do with an API. |
| 17:02:06 | <pagnol> | was it an existing Go-codebase with a largely imperative codestyle where you started using this? |
| 17:02:34 | <dsal> | e.g., if you look at an STM library in another language (go, rust, etc...) they have a big list of things you have to do to avoid bugs. In Haskell, those things don't compile. |
| 17:03:36 | <pagnol> | do you happen to have an example? |
| 17:03:38 | <dsal> | ...a bit of each in go. There was one point where someone found a bug in a thing he'd written and sent me code to review with this giant test that did exactly the thing he thought didn't work. It was effectively "write this specific stuff to the database and find this specific stuff in the database." He had a concurrency issue or something and it didn't work. |
| 17:04:04 | <dsal> | I sent him back a test that was almost exactly the same length that encoded "if I write stuff into the database, I can read it back." It failed in other scenarios than the one his bug fixed. |
| 17:04:21 | <dsal> | STM examples are pretty easy. At a high level, you just can't have side effects. |
| 17:04:40 | <dsal> | You can't interact with vars that aren't STM vars. You can't do any kind of disk or network IO. Stuff like that. |
| 17:05:09 | <dsal> | e.g. look at the "safety" section here: https://github.com/Marthog/rust-stm |
| 17:05:19 | <dsal> | Why can't the language just prevent you from doing those things you shouldn't do? |
| 17:06:06 | <dsal> | In Haskell, the type of `atomically` is ` :: STM a -> IO a` -- you can't call it inside STM because STM isn't IO |
| 17:06:35 | <dsal> | (same reason you can't read from a file, network, the clock, etc...) |
| 17:11:06 | <dsal> | Concurrency composition is just unfathomable without STM, though. I have some code that schedules and runs tasks. I have some other code that contains a map of items. A recent change added support for canceling scheduled tasks, so I modified my replacement code to atomically enqueue future deletion, cancel existing future deletion, and store the item in the map. Super easy to understand code. Just worked first time. |
| 17:11:38 | <dsal> | (this is my mqtt broker which has the concept of messages that persist for a number of seconds – turns out, *most* of these deletion jobs never actually need to run) |
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| 17:16:11 | <johnjaye> | what do all these libghc-xyz-dev packages do? |
| 17:16:52 | <geekosaur> | they're just debian/ubuntu packaged versions of hackage libraries |
| 17:17:09 | <johnjaye> | ok. i thought dev meant it was for compilation |
| 17:17:52 | <geekosaur> | well, they'd be needed for compiling something , but not necessarily to compile anything |
| 17:18:53 | <johnjaye> | hrm. well agda wanted a lot of them. could it compile things without having ghc itself installed? |
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| 17:19:48 | <geekosaur> | I believe it has support for that, but it also has support to build via haskell and there's no way to configure it to only offer that if ghc is installed |
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| 17:20:28 | <johnjaye> | i don't follow. i thought ghc was the compiler for everything |
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| 17:29:42 | <geekosaur> | in the older version of agda, ghc was the only option. I think more recent versions have support for direct native compilation |
| 17:29:54 | <geekosaur> | but still offer compiling via haskell |
| 17:30:15 | <geekosaur> | I know this is true of Idris but I think it's also true of agda these days |
| 17:30:23 | <johnjaye> | ah ok |
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| 18:02:10 | <lyxia> | Agda doesn't have native compilation, just via Haskell and JS for some reason https://agda.readthedocs.io/en/v2.6.2.2.20230105/tools/compilers.html but most users don't compile agda anyway |
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| 19:21:49 | <mastarija> | Is there a way to see the sha256 of a package on hackage? |
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| 19:22:06 | <mastarija> | I want to create a nix derivation and I'm missing this information |
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| 19:25:41 | <c_wraith> | mastarija: if you've already installed it outside of nix, the package is probably locally cached in ~/.cabal/packages and you can just run sha256sum on the .tar.gz file |
| 19:26:42 | <mastarija> | I haven't. I remember there was a cabal command to download the tar, so I'll do that. But I was hoping for something convenient on hackage. |
| 19:26:48 | <mastarija> | I thought maybe i was blind :) |
| 19:28:13 | geekosaur | wonders if flora should show this, if hackage doesn't (it doesn't currently) |
| 19:28:21 | <geekosaur> | cabal get |
| 19:29:12 | <mastarija> | flora? |
| 19:29:23 | <mastarija> | is that an alternative package repository? |
| 19:29:38 | <geekosaur> | Hécate's alternative UI to hackage |
| 19:29:50 | <geekosaur> | https://flora.pm |
| 19:29:58 | <mastarija> | Aha. |
| 19:30:00 | <mastarija> | Nice |
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| 19:40:18 | use-value1 | is now known as use-value |
| 19:40:43 | <davean> | There are project.json files in the hackage index maerwald |
| 19:40:45 | <davean> | er |
| 19:40:49 | <davean> | mastarija |
| 19:40:52 | <davean> | They left, didn't they? |
| 19:41:00 | <geekosaur> | yeh |
| 19:41:04 | <davean> | Well, there is an actual answer for them |
| 19:41:21 | <davean> | that does it right |
| 19:42:22 | <davean> | That is also signed from upstream |
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| 21:31:32 | <jean-paul[m]> | LocalTime doesn't carry a timezone with it ... which is annoying since it makes two different arbitrary LocalTime values unsafe to use together in pretty much any way. is there a LocalTime that carries a tz with it somewhere? |
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| 21:33:59 | <anatta> | jean-paul[m]: isn't there a ZonedTime? |
| 21:34:00 | <hololeap> | any ideas what I need to do to get this working? type MonadSay m = forall a. (MonadReader (Verbosity, a) m, MonadIO m) |
| 21:34:43 | <jean-paul[m]> | aaahh there is, in a newer version of time than I have 😦 thanks |
| 21:34:48 | <lyxia> | hololeap: what's the error |
| 21:34:51 | <dsal> | time keeps on changing |
| 21:35:08 | <jean-paul[m]> | it keeps on slipping into the future |
| 21:35:28 | <hololeap> | lyxia: You can't specify an instance for a tuple constraint |
| 21:35:42 | <hololeap> | I tried both RankNTypes and QuantifiedConstraints |
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| 21:37:00 | <hololeap> | and with this: type MonadSay m = ((forall a. MonadReader (Verbosity, a) m), MonadIO m) |
| 21:37:33 | <hololeap> | I get: Illegal polymorphic type: forall a. MonadReader (Verbosity, a) m. GHC doesn't yet support impredicative polymorphism |
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| 21:38:35 | <hololeap> | I have also used: type MonadSay m a = (MonadReader (Verbosity, a) m), MonadIO m) |
| 21:38:46 | <hololeap> | but then I have a dangling `a` that never gets used |
| 21:39:49 | <hololeap> | this is supposed to be a more lax constraint than my full env monad: type EnvM = ReaderT (Verbosity, Env) IO |
| 21:39:53 | <lyxia> | I think you can work around that last error message using ImpredicativeTypes |
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| 21:40:31 | <hololeap> | so I can use ` say :: MonadSay m a => String -> m ()` before the full Env is set up |
| 21:40:56 | <lyxia> | but also MonadReader has a fundep so that constraint looks suspicious |
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| 21:42:22 | <hololeap> | so I'm trying to implement the concept of "`say` doesn't care at all about what's in the second part of that ReaderT tuple" without having to carry an extra `a` around |
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| 21:43:35 | <hololeap> | it's just cosmetic, really |
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| 23:29:35 | <voidzero> | is there a quick to capitalize the first letter of a sentence of type Data.Text? |
| 23:30:24 | <voidzero> | afaik you can't use the `(c:cs) = T.upper c : cs` trick |
| 23:31:00 | <voidzero> | I could use T.unpack and T.pack |
| 23:33:18 | <voidzero> | but idk |
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| 23:36:32 | <EvanR> | unwords . capitalize . words? |
| 23:37:21 | <EvanR> | there is probably a lens for momentarily viewing a Text as a cons |
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| 23:38:12 | <voidzero> | Lens is beyond my skill level atm. I just need the very first word capitalized |
| 23:38:25 | <voidzero> | although, honestly, for my usecase I could just use String |
| 23:39:01 | <voidzero> | just curious how people would do this |
| 23:39:02 | <hpc> | might as well get in the habit of using Text, imo |
| 23:39:11 | <voidzero> | yeah that's what my books say, too |
| 23:40:29 | <voidzero> | so right now I have a var 'event' that contains a Text string, and to do this I am doing this: where event' = T.pack (toUpper (T.head event) : tail (T.unpack event)) |
| 23:40:59 | <voidzero> | it works but meh |
| 23:41:32 | <voidzero> | meh unless experienced ppl say this is fine |
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| 23:43:02 | <voidzero> | it's a simple tool that lets me enter an event on the console using TIO.getLine and generates a few sentences that contain this event. |
| 23:43:12 | <voidzero> | event being a scheduled event IRL |
| 23:43:47 | <voidzero> | making it easier to tweet these text, scheduled, using tweetdeck |
| 23:43:55 | <voidzero> | texts* |
| 23:45:04 | <voidzero> | "Tomorrow at 11am: " <> event -- is one of them (requiring the lower cased version, and -- event starts in 10 minutes, be there! -- as the other one. I want the second one to start capitalized. |
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| 23:47:23 | <sm> | that seems to be a missing feature at text > Case conversion |
| 23:47:23 | <sm> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/text-2.0.1/docs/Data-Text.html#g:9 |
| 23:48:45 | <voidzero> | yeah. T.head has T.Text -> Char. |
| 23:48:57 | <sm> | I would be tempted to T.pack . GHC.Utils.Misc.capitalise . T.unpack |
| 23:49:11 | <voidzero> | T.toUpper has Text -> Text, but, that'd capitalize everything |
| 23:49:22 | <voidzero> | aye so that's similar to my way of doing it |
| 23:50:58 | <sm> | ah, right. Yes that's fine in my book |
| 23:52:32 | <voidzero> | cool cool |
| 23:53:39 | <sm> | get your console tweeter working, it'll be an easy localised optimisation in future when OpenAmaBoogler Inc is running it a billion times a second |
| 23:54:18 | <voidzero> | haha well first we gotta see what Twitter's plans are re API usage. I think they want to get rid of all these options |
| 23:54:48 | <voidzero> | it ain't what it used to be. Even before Musk it wasn't what it used to be. |
| 23:55:09 | <sm> | I think so too, I hope your work can be reused for fediverse |
| 23:58:35 | sm | checks, finds only https://hackage.haskell.org/package/Hastodon 2018 |
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All times are in UTC on 2023-01-21.