Logs on 2023-01-27 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 02:30:47 | <famubu> | Hi. I was getting familiar with Higher order abstract syntax representation of lambda calculus terms with haskell. Is there a way to convert first order lambda calculus terms to HOAS terms? |
| 02:31:14 | <famubu> | couldn't find much with internet searches ... |
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| 02:33:35 | <famubu> | These are the types I had: https://bpa.st/VTIVA |
| 02:33:45 | <famubu> | How can we convert Folc terms to Hoas values? |
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| 02:51:39 | <EvanR> | by terms do you mean a traditional AST structure. Then converting to HOAS should be pretty straight forward |
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| 03:04:31 | <mauke> | I wrote a conversion function, but I'm not sure how to test it |
| 03:06:17 | <famubu> | EvanR: Yeah just the AST. How can that be done? The `Var` case of the non-hoas type had me stumped.. |
| 03:06:30 | <[Leary]> | famubu: `Folc` can have free variables, whilst `Hoas` can have "lambdas" that are actually macros---they're not isomorphic. But if you're prepared to error on those free variables, you can write that direction by passing down a local scope you examine in the `Var` case and extend in the `Abs` case. |
| 03:07:39 | <mauke> | `compileWith e (FolcVar v) = fromMaybe (error ("Unbound variable: " ++ show v)) (M.lookup v e)` |
| 03:08:04 | <famubu> | The string argument of `Var` needs to be made a haskell function right? Like `Var "a"`. How can that be handled? |
| 03:08:16 | <famubu> | Folc's Var. |
| 03:15:35 | <[Leary]> | The real question here: is there any way to fail gracefully without altering `Hoas`? The `Abs` case seems to require `Traversable ((->) r)`. |
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| 03:36:52 | <hololeap> | anyone know enough about optparse-applicative and bash to know if the completion scripts optparse-applicative generates have any kind of caching? |
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| 04:46:18 | <hololeap> | so, just a poll on code style here |
| 04:46:24 | <hololeap> | doesFileExist catFile >>= \case |
| 04:46:33 | <hololeap> | or bind it in a do block and use if |
| 04:48:07 | <hololeap> | oh, there is a bool function, to isn't there? |
| 04:48:35 | <hololeap> | I'm not sure if that would be better than the LamdaCase usage |
| 04:48:57 | <hololeap> | *LambdaCase |
| 04:50:26 | <hololeap> | that extension doesn't seem to be used very often, but this seems like a good use of it |
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| 04:52:00 | <hololeap> | http://sprunge.us/MMWgzy |
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| 04:53:46 | <hololeap> | not sure where that "e <- " came from |
| 04:54:47 | <[Leary]> | hololeap: Consider `whenM :: (Monad m, Monoid a) => m Bool -> m a -> m a` |
| 04:55:15 | <monochrom> | I use a do-block and if. |
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| 04:56:03 | <hololeap> | [Leary]: I see that in extra. looks like a great idea, actually |
| 04:58:13 | <hololeap> | oh, no you have it loosened to just a monoid instead of () |
| 04:58:27 | <hololeap> | so that's better |
| 04:59:01 | <hololeap> | then you can actually return something |
| 05:00:00 | <[Leary]> | Yeah, unfortunately most `when`s are grossly undergeneralised. Though a control-bool does have this one. |
| 05:00:14 | <[Leary]> | s/a // |
| 05:00:22 | <dsal> | I don't like the concept of `doesFileExist`. It should be `didFileExist` |
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| 05:10:02 | <hololeap> | [Leary]: to be fair, even this is a bit undergenerallized. `a` really doesn't have to be a Semigroup, but I wouldn't want to pull in something like data-default either |
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| 05:10:57 | <dsal> | I don't think you need any conditions in there. |
| 05:11:59 | <dsal> | Since you're not doing anything special in the case of a missing file. But there's a race condition between the file check and the file read. I'd just avoid that with fewer syscalls. |
| 05:12:04 | <dsal> | Probably write something more like -- repoCategories p = S.fromList . filter (not . null) . lines <$> (readFile (p </> "profiles" </> "categories") <|> pure "") |
| 05:16:50 | <[Leary]> | `whenM :: Monad m => m Bool -> m a -> m (Maybe a)` is another version that's more suitable in some cases and avoids the `Semigroup` constraint, but neither is more general. It's effectively the other `whenM` specialised to `Data.Monoid.(First|Last)`. |
| 05:18:34 | <hololeap> | ok, that makes sense dsal |
| 05:19:23 | <hololeap> | true, [Leary] |
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| 05:42:35 | <hololeap> | dsal: http://sprunge.us/lEajQV |
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| 05:46:40 | <dsal> | That works. Folding Maybe always seems a bit weird to me, but I wouldn't reject it. |
| 05:47:11 | <hololeap> | monoid homomorphism bruh |
| 05:56:45 | <dsal> | Yeah, I like how it's just kind of mempty in the fail case. |
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| 06:25:29 | <c_wraith> | dsal: folding Maybe is more or less what got Foldable moved into the Prelude. Too many people (including me) asked for some kind of whenJust_ function, not realizing that's what traverse_ did. |
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| 06:29:04 | <dsal> | Yeah, thinking of Maybe as a zero-or-one container is pretty helpful. |
| 06:30:13 | <dsal> | People at work use `for` over `Maybe` and it still looks weird to me, but primarily because of the name. |
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| 14:18:36 | <akshitkr> | hi |
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| 14:19:23 | <akshitkr> | im learning haskell but i like learning by building projects instead of just reading book chapters but im not sure where to start |
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| 14:19:52 | <akshitkr> | i know about lyah and haskell from first principles but kinda bored already |
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| 14:21:58 | akshitkr | is now known as komikat |
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| 14:31:38 | <geekosaur> | there's always getting involved with a project like pandoc, hledger, or xmonad |
| 14:32:24 | <geekosaur> | I learned practical Haskell by getting involved with xmonad |
| 14:33:02 | <geekosaur> | the down side of which is you need to understand X11 pretty well for that, so you may be better off with one of the others if you don't have that |
| 14:33:41 | <komikat> | i see |
| 14:33:56 | <komikat> | sounds interesting |
| 14:34:13 | <komikat> | though im not sure how you get involved with a project like that |
| 14:36:39 | <geekosaur> | https://hledger.org/dev.html https://pandoc.org/CONTRIBUTING.html |
| 14:37:20 | <komikat> | geekosaur: thanks |
| 14:37:27 | <geekosaur> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/xmonad-contrib-0.17.1/docs/XMonad-Doc-Developing.html |
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| 15:01:58 | <sm> | +1! for something smaller, there's |
| 15:01:59 | <sm> | @where lhbg |
| 15:01:59 | <lambdabot> | I know nothing about lhbg. |
| 15:02:52 | <sm> | @where lhbg |
| 15:02:52 | <lambdabot> | https://lhbg-book.link - Learn Haskell by building a blog generator, a highly-regarded learning resource |
| 15:03:59 | <akegalj> | you could try playing with https://github.com/cdepillabout/termonad , which is terminal emulator in haskell. Might be easier than xmonad |
| 15:06:10 | <sm> | @where haskell-via-sokoban |
| 15:06:12 | <lambdabot> | https://haskell-via-sokoban.nomeata.de |
| 15:07:12 | sm | proposes to shorten this: |
| 15:07:12 | sm | @where+ sokoban https://haskell-via-sokoban.nomeata.de - learn Haskell by building a Sokoban game |
| 15:08:05 | <geekosaur> | go for it, I think you're the closest thing we have for a curator for @where |
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| 15:09:18 | <sm> | hmm I already did it, acknowledge bot |
| 15:09:37 | <sm> | @where+ sokoban https://haskell-via-sokoban.nomeata.de - learn Haskell by building a Sokoban game |
| 15:09:37 | <lambdabot> | Done. |
| 15:09:46 | <sm> | @where+ haskell-via-sokoban |
| 15:09:46 | <lambdabot> | It is forgotten. |
| 15:16:02 | <sm> | a reminder: @where links can be searched at https://haskell-links.org or jumped to via https://haskell-links.org/sokoban (5 minutes after bot update) |
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| 15:31:13 | <sm> | @where links |
| 15:31:13 | <lambdabot> | https://haskell-links.org collected Haskell links and search tools, including @where links |
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| 15:32:45 | <sm> | @where+ https://haskell-links.org - searchable Haskell links, collected with @where |
| 15:32:45 | <lambdabot> | It is stored. |
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| 16:19:36 | <sm> | doh... using error in production code ? https://github.com/input-output-hk/cardano-node/issues/4826 |
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| 16:20:57 | <sm> | (took down half of the cardano blockchain's nodes for a minute or so, apparently) |
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| 16:21:54 | ChanServ | sets mode +o geekosaur |
| 16:22:03 | geekosaur | sets topic to "https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell | Admin: #haskell-ops | Offtopic: #haskell-offtopic | https://downloads.haskell.org https://play-haskell.tomsmeding.com/ | Paste code/errors: https://paste.tomsmeding.com | Logs: https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/browse/lchaskell" |
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| 16:28:22 | <akshitkr> | ls |
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| 16:33:55 | <geekosaur> | window? |
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| 16:42:17 | <Jadeitits[m]> | https://youtu.be/BlWOwg_UFaI |
| 16:42:27 | <Jadeitits[m]> | really interesting talk |
| 16:44:13 | <sm> | what about Jade 🏳️⚧️ (it/its) ? |
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| 17:02:22 | <sm> | <sm> "doh... using error in production..." <- ah, I found no error calls in cardano-node itself. It's in the containers lib :/ |
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| 19:06:12 | <davean> | sm: if they're tried to submit stuff upstream this wouldn't have happened I think. |
| 19:06:38 | <davean> | and, sm, I' |
| 19:06:49 | <davean> | d say they are using error in production since they used internals |
| 19:07:09 | <davean> | If you use Internals, its YOU that is directly responsible for that code you call |
| 19:07:40 | <sm> | that hasn't been established yet (see containers issue) |
| 19:09:21 | <davean> | what do you mean? I'm looking at their calls to Internals. |
| 19:09:28 | <sm> | oh, got a link ? |
| 19:09:36 | ← | fut parts (~futar@129.234.0.191) () |
| 19:09:49 | <davean> | Yes, they're in the cardano ticket *before you poked upstream* |
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| 19:11:33 | <davean> | They have some useful functions - maybe - but they're making them custom |
| 19:11:37 | <sm> | ah, thanks |
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| 19:12:21 | <davean> | If they'd upstreamed they'd have opted into the appropriate testing |
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| 19:13:42 | <davean> | I don't think these are gregious abuses of Internal, just not tied into the infrastructure to do it right |
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| 19:13:55 | <sm> | I'm still generally of the opinion that error calls/partiality should always be mentioned in haddocks, even in .Internal modules, but YMMV |
| 19:14:31 | <davean> | They SPECIFICLY insert a Tip into a balanceR I thinl? |
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| 19:14:58 | <davean> | Not sure |
| 19:15:09 | <sm> | I'm not pointing any blame at containers, just interested in hygiene and making reliability easier |
| 19:15:14 | <davean> | https://github.com/input-output-hk/cardano-ledger/blob/master/libs/cardano-data/src/Data/CanonicalMaps.hs#L80 I'd need to work through the invariants there properly |
| 19:16:00 | <davean> | They are doing that at a Tip place, I'm not sure how they get there though and if it is safe |
| 19:17:31 | <davean> | sm: I explicitely claim you *may not* use any .Internals without having read and taken the time to understand all the code - its .Internal and any lesser requirement would be seriously bad |
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| 19:18:00 | <davean> | There may be several papers you need to read before you touch a .Internals too |
| 19:18:12 | <davean> | you are now a maintainer of the combination of your library and the one you're using |
| 19:18:29 | <davean> | You can't document the deep changes someone is now making to the library |
| 19:18:30 | <sm> | sure, but in reality if it's exposed it will be used, and I think it's reasonable to mention partiality in all haddocks without exception |
| 19:18:33 | <davean> | error is a tiny piece of it |
| 19:18:47 | <davean> | No its not because error is the *good* case |
| 19:19:02 | <davean> | Anything computable could drop out of how someone uses .Internals |
| 19:19:11 | sm | speaking as someone who worked hard to remove error calls to improve reliability |
| 19:19:30 | <davean> | Sure, generally, but in .Internal I'd say removing errors calls lowers reliability. |
| 19:19:55 | <sm> | could be, could be |
| 19:20:04 | <davean> | If you cover a case that is outside the invariants, then you get divergent code |
| 19:20:35 | <davean> | error is the best case of what can happen |
| 19:21:25 | <mauke> | I'm pretty sure the invariants are all documented in comments |
| 19:21:36 | <mauke> | if you're going to reach into internals, you better look at the source code anyway |
| 19:21:47 | <davean> | mauke: right, you MUST read the code |
| 19:21:53 | <davean> | Its now you're code! |
| 19:22:35 | <davean> | You've stripped it of its protections and arrangement that makes it upsteam's code |
| 19:22:55 | <sm> | .Internal is a bit of a lie really.. if it was truly internal it wouldn't have needed to be exposed. It really means "exposed for someone, but not you! stay away!" |
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| 19:25:08 | <davean> | .Internals means one can publish demonstrations of what one could build into the package. |
| 19:25:39 | <mauke> | "if it was truly internal, they wouldn't have published the source code" |
| 19:25:46 | <davean> | Yah, what mauke said |
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| 19:28:20 | <davean> | .Internals specificly allow a *maintainer or someone opting into being a maintainer* to publish sibling libraries |
| 19:28:32 | <davean> | We don't have any protected way to do that |
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| 19:29:05 | <davean> | but since you've transformed the library it no longer has any properties that upstream can make claims about |
| 19:29:53 | <monochrom> | .Internal is probably a necessary quirk to enable more testing. |
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| 19:30:14 | <davean> | monochrom: well inside a package you can do that testing, if you use *modern* cabal features |
| 19:30:21 | <davean> | but it has to be very modern, even INSIDE a package |
| 19:31:32 | <davean> | But what you can't do with it is publish an experimental interface that iterates seperate from the code library for review |
| 19:31:37 | <monochrom> | Yeah it's a very recent development that has not trickled into the community. |
| 19:32:29 | <davean> | monochrom: well, it isn't even compatible with some people's installs |
| 19:32:45 | <davean> | if you do it ATM you're blocking some users. So for a containers like library it might reasonably not exist yet |
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| 19:37:28 | <davean> | If there WAS a way to publish "core"/"internal" libraries seperatelly that would be good, but it'll never be more secure than just saying .Internal (yes, you COULD publish a list of allowed users, or sign permission slips - thats not good) |
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| 20:19:32 | <sm> | hmm, how do you check if for an interactive shell session in haskell |
| 20:20:55 | <mauke> | https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Check_input_device_is_a_terminal#Haskell ? |
| 20:21:13 | <sm> | thanks! I could have sworn there was something in base or ansi-terminal |
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| 20:22:31 | <sm> | maybe https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ansi-terminal-0.11.4/docs/System-Console-ANSI.html#v:hSupportsANSIColor includes it |
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| 20:27:51 | <geekosaur> | https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/9.2.5/docs/html/libraries/base-4.16.4.0/System-IO.html#v:hIsTerminalDevice |
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| 20:38:54 | <sm> | AH, thank you! |
| 20:39:33 | <unit73e> | now you can do one of those fancy terminal applications with a loading bar and all |
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| 20:40:43 | <monochrom> | That would be a long story, but generally libraries like ansi-terminal or vty or brick will help. |
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| 20:41:43 | <Lycurgus> | boils down to some standard file handles that are or aren't present |
| 20:42:18 | <sm> | unit73e: hehehe don't joke I am already waist deep adding a little colour |
| 20:43:02 | <Lycurgus> | and tty assignment |
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| 20:43:10 | <sm> | > -- | A version of getLayerColor that is less likely to leak escape sequences to output, and that returns a RGB of Floats (0..1) that is more compatible with the colour package. This does nothing in a non-interactive context (eg when piping stdout to another command), inside emacs (emacs shell buffers show the escape sequence for some reason), or in a non-colour-supporting terminal. |
| 20:43:12 | <lambdabot> | <no location info>: error: |
| 20:43:12 | <lambdabot> | not an expression: ‘-- | A version of getLayerColor that is less likely ... |
| 20:43:49 | <sm> | stay back, bot |
| 20:43:59 | <monochrom> | "less likely" doesn't induce a lot of confidence :) |
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| 20:49:39 | <sm> | hehe this is not a place for confidence |
| 20:51:55 | <geekosaur> | confidence and terminals? try again… |
| 20:52:23 | <geekosaur> | granting that it's better now than the old wild west days |
| 20:53:16 | monochrom | goes back to the comfort of math... |
| 20:54:16 | <monochrom> | I'm doing the exercise of using parametricity to prove that if p :: forall a. a -> Maybe a, then p = const Nothing or p = Just. |
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| 20:54:46 | <monochrom> | Worse, I don't take Maybe for granted, I'm doing forall a. a -> (forall b. b -> (a -> b) -> b). |
| 20:55:03 | <monochrom> | So, I'm allowing myself only System F. |
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| 20:57:58 | <sm> | ... but I do seem to have reasonably effective choosing of text colour to contrast with light or dark terminal background now... except in emacs and in transparent terminals |
| 21:00:46 | <unit73e> | I bet some guys here have met a lot of different terminal formats. I'm not of that time but I've heard stories. |
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| 21:05:52 | <geekosaur> | I started out in the mid 80s. I used "wild west" advisedly |
| 21:06:11 | <Jadeitits[m]> | <sm> "what about Jade 🏳️⚧️ (it/its) ?" <- hm? |
| 21:06:28 | <geekosaur> | they were asking what the talk you posted was about |
| 21:07:16 | <geekosaur> | I thought Wyse 50s were weird until I got a Beehive Superbee |
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| 21:07:54 | <Jadeitits[m]> | Ahh, it's about a specific haskell compiler that is made for circuit design and FPGA's |
| 21:08:07 | <Jadeitits[m]> | 'Clash' |
| 21:08:17 | <geekosaur> | yep, it's reasonably well known |
| 21:08:34 | <Jadeitits[m]> | interesting stuff! |
| 21:08:55 | <Jadeitits[m]> | made me interested in learning more about fpga's |
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All times are in UTC on 2023-01-27.