Logs on 2023-01-28 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 03:56:59 | <justsomeguy> | Is pure (from Functor) the same as return (from Monad)? |
| 03:57:36 | <justsomeguy> | Someone told me monads are applicative functors. |
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| 04:00:27 | <monochrom> | pure is from Applicative, not Functor. But yes, same as Monad's return. |
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| 04:08:19 | <int-e> | `return` exists for historical reasons; the Applicative class was added after Monad and Functor were already well-established. |
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| 04:15:27 | <dsal> | I don't think anything requires `pure` and `return` to be the same, but if you find anything with a definition other than `return = pure` I'd be pretty suspicious. |
| 04:22:59 | <davean> | dsal: The laws sure do! |
| 04:23:13 | <davean> | dsal: If they aren't that explicitely and directly violates the class laws. |
| 04:24:46 | <dsal> | I meant from a "this won't compile" perspective. People *can* do dumb things. |
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| 04:26:17 | <davean> | Sure, but its more than suspicious - its directly wrong |
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| 08:23:12 | <Inst_> | CPython is dead? Last update 2 years ago |
| 08:23:26 | Inst_ | is now known as Inst |
| 08:23:52 | <Inst> | I can't even get it to install on Windows, but that's my fault for using windows |
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| 08:37:48 | <energizer> | last update 6 hours ago https://github.com/python/cpython |
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| 09:01:10 | <davean> | Maybe they mean https://hackage.haskell.org/package/cpython ? |
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| 09:50:34 | <aeroplane> | Hi everyone, I have a simple question. since haskell uses linked list internally, so if I do this "let x=(1,(2,3))" and then "y=snd x", then does haskell creates two copies of (2,3) in the memory or their is only one single entry refrenced at two places (x and y) |
| 09:51:32 | <c_wraith> | "uses linked lists internally"? |
| 09:52:22 | <c_wraith> | data types use exactly the representation they're declared with. |
| 09:52:38 | <gnalzo> | notice, (1,(2,3)) is not valid haskell. And is not a list. The list are denoted using [ ] |
| 09:52:47 | <c_wraith> | it's valid. |
| 09:52:52 | <c_wraith> | > (1, (2, 3)) |
| 09:52:54 | <lambdabot> | (1,(2,3)) |
| 09:53:02 | <gnalzo> | oh yes |
| 09:53:05 | <c_wraith> | But it isn't a list |
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| 09:54:10 | <aeroplane> | I'm sorry i mixed haskell with lisp |
| 09:54:18 | <gnalzo> | well, anyway, [1, [2, 3]] is not valid. I'm mistaken. |
| 09:55:15 | <c_wraith> | anyway, ignoring all the red herrings... Immutability means free sharing. So in let x = (1,(2,3)); y = snd x in ... well, after evaluation, y will be the same pointer as the second entry in x |
| 09:57:05 | <c_wraith> | (before it's evaluated, it'll be a thunk holding on to a function and its arguments) |
| 09:58:17 | <aeroplane> | c_wraith: I am asking this question because, i am trying to create a tree data structure in haskell, so to insert a value into a tree you have to create a new tree entirely. |
| 09:58:27 | <c_wraith> | sharing. |
| 09:58:46 | <aeroplane> | sO DOES HASKELL CREATES A NEW TREE OR SHARE THE VALUES INTERNALLY |
| 09:58:53 | <c_wraith> | Any subtree that is referred to by both isn't copied. |
| 09:59:40 | <c_wraith> | It's literally syntactic. If you don't call a constructor, you aren't creating new elements. |
| 10:00:51 | <[exa]> | aeroplane: it may not even store 2 copies of the whole thing tbh, since it's lazy it might just remember something like "snd (1,(2,3)) belongs here" |
| 10:01:24 | <[exa]> | aeroplane: anyway in the end if you really read the values of (2,3) and unless something crazy happens, it's usually going to share the memory location |
| 10:02:35 | <[exa]> | (and the case with actual lists as in `tail (1:(2:(3:[])))` aka `tail [1,2,3]` should behave pretty much the same, [2,3] will be shared |
| 10:02:38 | <[exa]> | ) |
| 10:02:41 | <Inst> | ummm, yeah, I mean the hackage package |
| 10:02:47 | <c_wraith> | I can't think of any case where syntactic sharing doesn't imply runtime sharing. |
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| 10:03:22 | <[exa]> | c_wraith: inliner is free to duplicate the values in certain cases when it thinks it doesn't duplicate too much work |
| 10:03:43 | <c_wraith> | mm. right, for top-level definitions. |
| 10:03:58 | <[exa]> | yeah in that case I'd say it's super rare. |
| 10:03:59 | <c_wraith> | including things that get floated to the top level |
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| 10:05:43 | <c_wraith> | anyway, that's not going to apply to any value that depends on a function argument. |
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| 10:12:43 | <[exa]> | Inst: what's broken btw? (any error log?) |
| 10:13:14 | <aeroplane> | [exa]: thanks, that's neat, "let y=snd x" will not be evaluated, and if it needS to, then the refrence to (2,3) will be shared |
| 10:13:18 | <aeroplane> | am i correct |
| 10:13:20 | <Inst> | PS C:\Users\Liam> cabal install cpython |
| 10:13:20 | <Inst> | Resolving dependencies... |
| 10:13:20 | <Inst> | Error: cabal-3.8.1.0.exe: Could not resolve dependencies: |
| 10:13:20 | <Inst> | [__0] trying: cpython-3.5.1 (user goal) |
| 10:13:20 | <Inst> | [__1] rejecting: cpython:-usepython38 (conflict: pkg-config package |
| 10:13:21 | <Inst> | python3-any, not found in the pkg-config database) |
| 10:13:25 | <Inst> | [__1] rejecting: cpython:+usepython38 (conflict: pkg-config package |
| 10:13:27 | <Inst> | python-3.8-any, not found in the pkg-config database) |
| 10:13:28 | <Inst> | [__1] fail (backjumping, conflict set: cpython, cpython:usepython38) |
| 10:13:31 | <Inst> | After searching the rest of the dependency tree exhaustively, these were the |
| 10:13:33 | <Inst> | goals I've had most trouble fulfilling: cpython, cpython:usepython38 |
| 10:13:35 | <Inst> | whoops, should have used pastebin |
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| 10:29:21 | <[exa]> | aeroplane: yes |
| 10:30:02 | <[exa]> | Inst: yeah that looks like you need a working pkg-config with the correct version of python (I'd guess 3.5 while you have 3.8) |
| 10:30:28 | <[exa]> | or maybe it doesn't have pkg-config at all which is, well, windows thing |
| 10:30:35 | <Inst> | it wants 3.8, i can't get pkg-config working on windows |
| 10:30:45 | <[exa]> | can you run in WSL? |
| 10:30:52 | <Inst> | i don't have it installed on WSL |
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| 10:31:45 | <[exa]> | tbh I have no idea how the package would be able to sanely configure self in the default windows mess, even cabal working there is more of a small miracle |
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| 10:32:49 | <[exa]> | but maybe with the pkg-config in place it might just work |
| 10:32:56 | <[exa]> | (can you check that you can run pkg-config yoursel?) |
| 10:33:31 | <[exa]> | (something like: pkg-config python3 --cflags or maybe pkg-config --list-all) |
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| 10:42:56 | <aeroplane> | I have one other beginner question, if I have an immutable variable "tree" and I have to update it multiple times, the do I have to declare new variables all the time, since haskell complains when i redclare "tree" variable. Below is Binary Search Tree code, I need to update variable tree at line 27 multiple times, I do not know how to do that? Please help, thanks. |
| 10:42:58 | <aeroplane> | http://ix.io/4mpM/haskell |
| 10:45:25 | <aeroplane> | please bear that the code is not clean |
| 10:48:16 | <danza> | of course. Because of immutability, you cannot reassign a variable |
| 10:48:50 | <danza> | in fact, more that a variable, we could call the constants ^^; |
| 10:49:05 | <gnalzo> | you can not declare tree at the top level. |
| 10:49:29 | <danza> | gnalzo, why not? |
| 10:49:56 | <gnalzo> | just pass Empty to the function ins in main. |
| 10:50:07 | <danza> | oh yes, that's a better idea |
| 10:50:11 | <aeroplane> | i need to update tree multiple times, how to do it |
| 10:51:03 | <gnalzo> | danza: I rephrase, you can of course, but it's not the best pratice imho. |
| 10:52:03 | <gnalzo> | aeroplane: each function that update a Tree, can get a Tree as parameter and return a modified Tree. |
| 10:52:44 | <danza> | and you can collect multiple updates (separated by $ or .) and apply them one after the other |
| 10:53:25 | <gnalzo> | aeroplane: this is what you already do. |
| 10:54:36 | <aeroplane> | gnalzo: then i need to store that value somewhere |
| 10:54:51 | <aeroplane> | i cannot reassign it to tree variable |
| 10:55:02 | <aeroplane> | line 31 |
| 10:56:08 | <tomsmeding> | let tree1 = stuff tree ; tree2 = stuff2 tree1 ; ... |
| 10:56:14 | <gnalzo> | yes you cannot for variable at toplevel. But you can for local variable defined with let (or where), and even for function parameters. |
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| 10:56:46 | <danza> | and yeah, to get used with the concept, adding numbers to the end is probably the easiest |
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| 10:59:52 | <aeroplane> | gnalzo: it complaines when i add "tree1=ins 6 tree1" after line 31 |
| 11:00:13 | <aeroplane> | parse error on input ‘=’ |
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| 11:01:41 | <aeroplane> | tomsmeding: yeah that is exactly the problem that i am asking |
| 11:02:14 | <aeroplane> | do i have redclare variable everytime when i update |
| 11:03:26 | <darkling> | You have to create a new variable for each new value. |
| 11:04:02 | <darkling> | So the code above with "tree1=ins 6 tree1" is going to fail because you're trying to redefine tree1 -- it should be "tree2 = ins 6 tree1" |
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| 11:07:09 | <gnalzo> | aeroplane: I said, it's possible but not this way. You can in recursive function, because let define a new variable after each call, despite they have the same name. |
| 11:07:20 | <aeroplane> | darkling: that means that every time I have to make modifications to the tree, then I have to declare a new variable to store the updated tree |
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| 11:16:33 | <Lears> | @pl \tree0 -> let tree1 = f tree0; tree2 = g tree1; tree3 = h tree2 in i tree3 |
| 11:16:34 | <lambdabot> | i . fix . const . h . fix . const . g . fix . const . f |
| 11:16:58 | <Lears> | Wow. Technically correct, but not exactly ideal. |
| 11:17:03 | <Lears> | @check \x -> (fix . const) x == x |
| 11:17:05 | <lambdabot> | +++ OK, passed 100 tests. |
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| 12:00:41 | <mauke> | @check \x -> length (nub x) == 1 |
| 12:00:42 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 12:00:43 | <lambdabot> | Ambiguous occurrence ‘length’ It could refer to either ‘Data.List.length’, i... |
| 12:01:01 | <mauke> | @check \x -> Data.List.length (nub x) <= 1 |
| 12:01:03 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 12:01:03 | <lambdabot> | Ambiguous occurrence ‘nub’ It could refer to either ‘Data.List.nub’, importe... |
| 12:01:24 | <mauke> | @check \x -> Data.List.length (Data.List.nub x) <= 1 |
| 12:01:26 | <lambdabot> | +++ OK, passed 100 tests. |
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| 12:19:41 | <tomsmeding> | aeroplane: yes |
| 12:20:03 | <tomsmeding> | Though what you could do is wrap all the things you want to do to the tree in functions, say stuff1, stuff2, ..., stuff32 |
| 12:20:22 | <tomsmeding> | Then the final tree is stuff32 . stuff31 . ... . stuff1 $ tree |
| 12:20:50 | <tomsmeding> | Depending on how those stuff functions look, you might not even need to do the wrapping, you can just write them inline |
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| 12:51:24 | <komikat> | j |
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| 13:16:08 | <unit73e> | komikat, k. I win. |
| 13:16:32 | <unit73e> | also hello |
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| 13:37:33 | <unit73e> | is the maintainer and license haddock still necessary in modules? because cabal already tells that. |
| 13:39:41 | <unit73e> | is there a way to generate that part? |
| 13:51:27 | <Hecate> | unit73e: cabal check bothers you with this? |
| 13:52:54 | <unit73e> | Hecate, nah and neither does writting it down manually, just a curiosity |
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| 13:54:03 | <Hecate> | unit73e: Personally, I copy one module to create another, so the haddock metadata are written once :P |
| 13:54:11 | <Hecate> | but I don't think it matters that much? |
| 13:54:38 | <Hecate> | unit73e: but you're right, Haddock could infer those metadata |
| 13:55:00 | <unit73e> | well if there's nothing, there's nothing I guess. not much of a problem imo |
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| 17:57:55 | <zebrag[m]> | https://pure.strath.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/7096708/syntaxforfree.pdf, the 3rd equality, at the bottom of p. 4? Atkey is giving an interpretation of ∀α.τ... |
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| 17:59:05 | <zebrag[m]> | I guess it is the interpretation of the type when the type variable ranges over all sets, so it's a variable set |
| 17:59:28 | <zebrag[m]> | but then he is restricting that with a condition |
| 17:59:47 | <zebrag[m]> | and I can't make sense of that condition |
| 18:01:33 | oldfashionedcow | is now known as intel |
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| 18:02:25 | <zebrag[m]> | This is the condition: ∀W, A1, A2, R : KRel(W, A1, A2), w : W. R[|τ|]W (∆γW [α ↦ R]) w (x A1) (x A2) |
| 18:03:07 | <zebrag[m]> | Atkey's explanations are "These clauses are mostly straightforward" |
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| 18:12:29 | <smol-hors> | can someone link me to suggested up-to-date reading on the Haskell FFI? |
| 18:13:47 | <sclv> | smol-hors: https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/ffi.html |
| 18:13:57 | <smol-hors> | thank you |
| 18:15:00 | <mauke> | https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/haskell2010/haskellch8.html#x15-1490008 |
| 18:15:37 | <smol-hors> | thx |
| 18:19:15 | <monochrom> | zebrag[m]: You would notice that the condition is the parametricity condition, e.g., the last equation. |
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| 18:20:48 | <zebrag[m]> | I would? let's see |
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| 18:24:14 | <zebrag[m]> | monochrom thanks a lot, I'm going to work on that... |
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| 19:46:46 | <stefan-_> | is there a typeclass which is a monoid and supports multiplication with a scalar? |
| 19:48:33 | <geekosaur> | do you count `mtimes`/`stimes`? |
| 19:48:39 | <Rembane> | stefan-_: Not really, but Product could perhaps help you. What do you want to do? |
| 19:49:48 | <geekosaur> | otherwise this sounds to me like you want one of the matrix packages, maybe |
| 19:51:22 | <stefan-_> | I have a record which holds three different `cost` integer fields, this cost record has a zero, can be summed and multiplied with a scalar |
| 19:52:14 | <stefan-_> | (day 19 of aoc) |
| 19:54:10 | <c_wraith> | that basically sounds like stimes or mitmes along with replicate. |
| 19:54:32 | <c_wraith> | err. concat/sconcat |
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| 19:58:58 | <c_wraith> | oh. which is just stimes/mtimes |
| 20:02:09 | <stefan-_> | c_wraith, stimes sounds good, thanks! |
| 20:02:39 | <c_wraith> | It looks like it's part of the class so that you can provide a more efficient implementation if you desire. and this is a case where you might! |
| 20:03:27 | <EvanR> | multiplication by a scalar is vector language, you just want repeated monoiding/semigrouping |
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| 20:05:19 | <stefan-_> | https://gist.github.com/dozed/f12791c9ed15fa6e76b50beffd8ad77c |
| 20:05:23 | <stefan-_> | this is what I have currently |
| 20:06:09 | <int-e> | . o O ( Ah, day 19, the day where I hardcoded everything. ) |
| 20:06:41 | <stefan-_> | hm, it should probably possible to even automatically derive Semigroup/Monoid |
| 20:07:00 | <stefan-_> | based on the underlying Int |
| 20:07:39 | <int-e> | there's a monoid for Num a => Sum a, Sum being a newtype |
| 20:10:12 | <int-e> | And the Semigroup instance does `stimes n (Sum a) = Sum (fromIntegral n * a)` so it should be fine for that optimization. Though I'm not sure whether you actually need it. |
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| 20:13:15 | <int-e> | "hardcoded everything" -- https://paste.tomsmeding.com/HMK3FvTI (very mild spoiler, it's just the left-hand side of my main solving function) |
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