Logs on 2023-02-02 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:56:58 | <Joao003> | nothing happens on this channel |
| 00:57:07 | <Joao003> | except a few long conversations |
| 00:57:20 | <geekosaur> | it was busy earlier |
| 00:57:43 | <Joao003> | irc is underrated and old but excellent |
| 00:58:14 | <Joao003> | probably almost everyone has moved to discord but i don't like discord |
| 00:58:21 | <Joao003> | discord has too many features |
| 00:59:07 | <geekosaur> | there's a separate matrix room but it's even quieter |
| 00:59:54 | <geekosaur> | then again some of the reason this channel is "except a few long conversations" is that we redirect most off topic stuff to #haskell-offtopic (then again that channel's been quiet today as well) |
| 01:00:04 | <Joao003> | lol |
| 01:00:53 | <geekosaur> | both channels are kinda variable in how busy they are |
| 01:01:05 | <geekosaur> | today's been relatively quiet. some days it's really busy |
| 01:01:13 | <jackdk> | It comes in waves, depending on which side of the earth faces the sun right now |
| 01:01:23 | <Joao003> | mine is facing the moon |
| 01:01:34 | <Joao003> | i mean not facing the sun |
| 01:01:47 | <Joao003> | lol it's pretty late in the night already for me' |
| 01:02:08 | <Joao003> | also anyone knows of a good apl room? |
| 01:03:35 | <jackdk> | No, but I imagine it's not typeable on a regular keyboard ;-) |
| 01:03:42 | <jackdk> | s/No/Not I/ |
| 01:04:14 | <Joao003> | lol there's apl ime |
| 01:04:19 | <geekosaur> | agda input mode, anyone? 🙂 |
| 01:05:34 | <Joao003> | also i found the apl channel its named #apl |
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| 01:43:27 | <sm> | dangit, my google sheet csv getter has bitrotted. Depends on gogol which is unmaintained and requires aeson < 2, which is in stackage lts-18/ghc-8.10 which doesn't run easily on a modern mac (needs older llvm). Building it with cabal on the other hand requires me to solve a stiff cleverness test (dependency puzzle). |
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| 01:46:10 | <sm> | current cabal script header: build-depends: aeson<1.6, bytestring, cassava, gogol, gogol-core, gogol-sheets, lens, pretty-show, text |
| 01:46:10 | <sm> | result: https://termbin.com/phxi8 |
| 01:46:10 | <sm> | getting too old for this sh*t :) |
| 01:47:26 | <sm> | I guess it's because.. cabal scripts use the user's package db, and I already have a wrong bytestring version installed there ? |
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| 01:55:17 | <ddellacosta> | jean-paul[m]: I am at a loss...that is bizarre behavior |
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| 02:15:23 | <sm> | I came close, building most deps, with this horror: |
| 02:15:23 | <sm> | ghcup set ghc 9.0.2 && PATH=/opt/homebrew/opt/llvm@12/bin:$PATH CPATH=/Library/Developer/CommandLineTools/SDKs/MacOSX13.1.sdk/usr/include/ffi cabal build ./gsheet-csv.hs |
| 02:15:26 | <sm> | but failed due to "error: instruction requires: sha3", some bug with this required llvm version on arm |
| 02:15:52 | <sm> | and I chose Haskell for software longevity... |
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| 02:45:55 | <sm> | but anyway - any recommendations for an alternative to gogol for accessing google sheets ? |
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| 02:56:18 | <sm> | found one: go install github.com/cristoper/gsheet/cmd/gsheet@latest |
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| 03:05:06 | <EvanR> | I feel your pain sm |
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| 03:43:13 | <sayola> | how come i have never seen example code using FooT |
| 03:43:36 | <dsal> | You'll shoot your eye out. |
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| 03:44:07 | <sayola> | always |
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| 04:10:32 | sm | wonders if go will outlast the rest |
| 04:14:17 | <dsal> | sm: is gogol not working? I've barely used it before and it seemed OKish. |
| 04:14:54 | <sm> | it's unmaintained and requires aeson < 2, dsal |
| 04:15:05 | <dsal> | Ah, similar problems to amazonka, I guess. |
| 04:15:20 | <sm> | I didn't bother trying allow-newer |
| 04:15:26 | <dsal> | (not that amazonka is not maintained, but, you know) |
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| 04:22:05 | <jackdk> | amazonka is very close to 2.0 RC 2, but I have to rethink some stuff about how hooks are gonna work |
| 04:23:01 | <dsal> | Is gogol actually getting any work done? |
| 04:23:21 | <dsal> | I can't even remember what I did with it once… |
| 04:23:27 | <jackdk> | not as far as I know. I don't do anything with GCP |
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| 04:32:13 | sm | had been using it for a few years to fetch google sheets |
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| 04:35:29 | <jackdk> | I read the question as "is gogol actually getting any work done [on it]?" |
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| 04:36:59 | <sm> | I wasn't sure |
| 04:37:16 | <sm> | but to that I can answer no based on github commit dates |
| 04:37:34 | <sm> | and issue tracker activity |
| 04:38:00 | <dsal> | Well, like, amazonka's got a bunch of behind the scenes stuff going on. |
| 04:38:35 | <sm> | oh.. gogol's public face might be very out of date ? |
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| 04:38:59 | <sm> | it looked like the maintainer certainly wasn't getting 20% time to maintain it |
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| 04:40:42 | <sm> | well I correct myself.. github is only 10 months old. It's the hackage release that's old, 2019 |
| 04:44:48 | <sm> | I guess my sad experience of software fragility with haskell, which felt related to ghc, could equally well be blamed on limited library support |
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| 04:46:43 | <sm> | it seems a combination of both actually. If ghc versions were more reliable, running old libs would be more feasible. If up to date libs were always available, using latest ghc versions would be feasible. |
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| 05:10:00 | <Inst_> | does anyone like to use Writer.CPS here? |
| 05:10:51 | <Inst_> | as far as I understand, writer is more specialized than State, and I got a tolaly weird result wherein State combined with strict data types outperformed significantly a manual loop |
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| 06:26:15 | <danso> | can i get any resources on the origin/motivation for -XNoPatternGuards? i am very interested in why somebody would want guards removed from haskell |
| 06:27:01 | <int-e> | Inst__: Hmm, so that CPS version of writer ensures that the monoid operation is used in a left-associative fashion. Use with care; don't use it with lists. |
| 06:27:18 | <Inst__> | thanks for the warning |
| 06:27:53 | <Inst__> | you could also define custom instances for your record types |
| 06:28:00 | <Inst__> | to overwrite the default <> implementation for lists |
| 06:31:12 | <int-e> | danso: Haskell98 didn't have pattern guards. So historically, PatternGuards is an extension, and GHC has a No* pragma for every extension. |
| 06:32:13 | <int-e> | I, too, would be surprised to see NoPatternGuards actually used anywhere. |
| 06:37:55 | <Inst__> | what is pattern guards again? |
| 06:38:02 | <Inst__> | is it the ability to interleave case with guards? |
| 06:38:16 | <Inst__> | or is it the ability to use let and <- bindings in guards? |
| 06:38:17 | <jackdk> | https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/table.html |
| 06:38:23 | <danso> | thanks, i just learned that pattern guards is not what i believed it was |
| 06:38:31 | <int-e> | > let foo x | (a,b) <- x = a + b in foo (1,2) |
| 06:38:33 | <lambdabot> | 3 |
| 06:38:46 | <int-e> | (silly example) |
| 06:39:20 | <Inst__> | oh, so mix of pattern matching and guards is still supported by haskell 98 |
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| 06:39:35 | <int-e> | it acts like a guard if the pattern match can actually fail. |
| 06:39:35 | <Inst__> | alternative to view patterns, basically |
| 06:40:31 | <int-e> | my favorite abuse of pattern guards is "assignments": foo x | x <- x+2, x <- x*2 = x |
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| 06:41:32 | <Inst__> | cute |
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| 06:46:35 | <danso> | is that multiple bindings for x which shadow each other? |
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| 06:46:56 | <int-e> | yes |
| 06:47:35 | <danso> | if anybody actually does that, their compiler should go on strike |
| 06:47:55 | <int-e> | Well, that would make me very sad. |
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| 06:52:41 | <int-e> | (There's a tangible benefit to shadowing: you can't accidentally mix up the new (modified) and old values.) |
| 06:55:01 | <int-e> | Though Haskell doesn't make this fool-proof because of `where` clauses. |
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| 07:29:39 | <jackdk> | We have linearity now, not that I've used it for anything seriosu |
| 07:29:42 | <jackdk> | serious* |
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| 08:01:37 | <sidk> | Anyone has any experience concurrency testing a servant server? I found https://github.com/barrucadu/dejafu and https://github.com/input-output-hk/io-sim but not sure if they'd work well with Servant |
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| 11:02:09 | <albet70> | why data T = a -> a is wrong? |
| 11:03:17 | <tomsmeding> | albet70: needs a data constructor name |
| 11:03:26 | <tomsmeding> | and also, 'a' is out of scope |
| 11:03:31 | <tomsmeding> | data T a = MakeT (a -> a) |
| 11:03:53 | <tomsmeding> | alternatively, if you wanted a type synonym: type T a = a -> a |
| 11:04:56 | <albet70> | data Task = F | E | T Task Task, I want T Task Task = Task -> Task |
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| 11:05:39 | <tomsmeding> | data Task = F | E | T (Task -> Task) |
| 11:05:39 | <tomsmeding> | ? |
| 11:05:48 | <albet70> | yes |
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| 11:53:00 | <underlap> | I'm trying to understand the output of the GHCi `:show bindings` command. If I define a function (e.g. `let f = head`), then its binding is printed as `f :: [a] -> a = _`. Clearly, the first part of this is the name of the binding and its type, but I'm wondering what `= _` means and in what circumstances it might be something else. |
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| 11:56:51 | <dminuoso> | underlap: I suspect it uses `_` when no Show instance exists. |
| 11:59:16 | <underlap> | dminuoso: Yes, I think you're right. I tried `let z = 1 :: Int` and its binding showed as `z :: Int = 1`. Thanks! |
| 11:59:37 | <int-e> | It seems closer to :print, it only shows values that were already evaluated. So after `let f :: [Int]; f = [1..]` it prints `f :: [Int] = _`, but after `take 3 f` it says `f :: [Int] = 1 : 2 : 3 : _` |
| 12:00:03 | <dminuoso> | int-e: Maybe a mixture of both. |
| 12:00:28 | <int-e> | maybe. |
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| 12:01:21 | <int-e> | data F = F; f = F; f `seq` (); :show bindings --> f :: F = <F> |
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| 12:01:33 | <int-e> | fun. |
| 12:02:39 | <underlap> | Fun indeed! :-) |
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| 12:06:52 | <rendar> | haskell has libraries for useful combination mechanisms, for instance? |
| 12:12:46 | <Joao003> | hmmm |
| 12:12:49 | <Joao003> | a = 0 |
| 12:12:54 | <Joao003> | :show bindings |
| 12:13:33 | <Joao003> | it output a :: Num a => a = _ |
| 12:13:58 | <merijn> | Joao003: Because Num a isn't guaranteed to be an instance of Show |
| 12:14:10 | <Joao003> | yeah |
| 12:14:41 | <Joao003> | tried a = 0 :: Int |
| 12:14:49 | <Joao003> | and it output a :: Int = 0 |
| 12:16:23 | <Joao003> | so it's like name :: type = (show name if type is instance of Show else _) |
| 12:18:21 | <Joao003> | i found a way to implement map with folds |
| 12:19:21 | <Joao003> | map f = foldl (\acc x -> [f x : acc]) [] |
| 12:20:10 | <Joao003> | oh ok its flipped |
| 12:20:20 | <Joao003> | map f = foldl (\x acc -> [f x : acc]) [] |
| 12:20:42 | <Joao003> | wait what no??? |
| 12:20:46 | <int-e> | just f x : acc |
| 12:21:02 | <Joao003> | oh i forgor |
| 12:21:04 | <int-e> | (I happily forgot which language used those square brackets.) |
| 12:24:07 | <Joao003> | i did it but now my array is reversed |
| 12:24:31 | <Joao003> | i will use foldr then |
| 12:24:40 | <jackdk> | http://data.tmorris.net/talks/list-folds/b30aa0fdff296c731bc5b1c824adf1d02b3b69d9/list-folds.pdf |
| 12:25:18 | <jackdk> | very useful for building a working intuition of what the folds mean. selecting which fold to use to implement map becomes much easier when you have that |
| 12:25:50 | <Joao003> | my implementation of map: |
| 12:26:04 | <Joao003> | map f = foldr (\x -> (f x :)) [] |
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| 12:26:38 | <Joao003> | and it actually makes a smiley |
| 12:26:50 | <tomsmeding> | :t \f -> foldr ((:) . f) [] |
| 12:26:51 | <lambdabot> | Foldable t => (a1 -> a2) -> t a1 -> [a2] |
| 12:27:03 | <tomsmeding> | double smiley |
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| 12:27:34 | <jackdk> | yes, and because foldr performs constructor replacement (see linked pdf), it is clear that replacing `:` with `(:) . f` (and `[]` with `[]`) will perform the mapping |
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| 12:29:26 | <underlap> | I was told you can build anything out of folds. I wonder... |
| 12:30:34 | <Joao003> | it makes sense that foldl is (a -> [b] -> [b]) -> [b] -> [a] -> [b] |
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| 12:30:55 | <Joao003> | im wrong lol |
| 12:31:18 | <Joao003> | i went too far into that map |
| 12:31:47 | <Joao003> | the function that foldr takes is flipped from foldl |
| 12:33:13 | <merijn> | underlap: https://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~pszgmh/fold.pdf |
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| 12:41:23 | <underlap> | merijn: Yes, that's the one! Thanks. |
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| 12:50:50 | <gensyst> | Does NamedFieldPuns {foo} mean {foo = foo} ? I guess it does. Is there something similar for doing {foo = !foo} ? |
| 12:50:57 | <gensyst> | to get it strict |
| 12:53:07 | <merijn> | gensyst: Yes to the first one, I dunno to the second :p |
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| 13:03:45 | <david_> | Hello :wave: |
| 13:04:12 | <david_> | I have a basic question because I want to be able to share some code in a folder with other folder |
| 13:04:34 | <eldritchcookie[4> | hello i am considering making a library similar to HaTeX for ConTeXt instead of LaTeX and i would like for it to be impossible to generate invalid markup however in ConTeX it is common to use custom defined commands is there a way to force the usage of a custom command to be only possible after its definition? |
| 13:04:40 | <eldritchcookie[4> | hello david use modules |
| 13:04:42 | <david_> | let say I have a program in folderA/folderB/myProgram.hs |
| 13:05:00 | <david_> | And i I want to use code from folderX/folderY/lib.hs |
| 13:05:07 | <david_> | How can I do that exactly? |
| 13:05:36 | <merijn> | david_: How are you building your code atm? |
| 13:05:50 | <david_> | I'm just cd folderA/folderB/ and ghc myProgram.hs |
| 13:06:13 | <eldritchcookie[4> | use cabal or stack |
| 13:06:14 | <eldritchcookie[4> | https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/stable/getting-started.html |
| 13:06:19 | <merijn> | ok, so first of all, you will probably wanna start using cabal to build stuff |
| 13:06:29 | <david_> | mmh I was hoping avoiding using a package manager at all. |
| 13:06:32 | <david_> | but ok |
| 13:06:45 | <merijn> | david_: Realistically, that's not possible |
| 13:07:03 | <merijn> | In theory you could, but it will suck and nobody's gonna be able to help you, because no one really works like that |
| 13:07:17 | <merijn> | david_: Why do you wanna avoid cabal? |
| 13:07:19 | <david_> | now next question: should I do a stack project at the root of my folder or should I do a stack project for the lib.hs or should I do a stack project for every folder ? |
| 13:07:47 | <david_> | Just want to keep it as simple as possible |
| 13:08:14 | <Joao003> | simple: have a copy of the program in both folders, and update it accordingly |
| 13:08:32 | <eldritchcookie[4> | that is a horrendously bad idea |
| 13:08:38 | <david_> | yeah :) |
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| 13:08:49 | <david_> | _horrendously_ |
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| 13:09:07 | <merijn> | david_: I don't know the best approach for stack. But for cabal, you can just run "cabal init" in your library and program folders to set things up. Cabal also has a notion of project files for depending on projects in other local directories |
| 13:10:00 | <merijn> | I'm pretty sure stack has a similar kinda dealio |
| 13:10:42 | <eldritchcookie[4> | depends on how you setup things but there are some different concepts to understand you have packages, which may contain libraries and executables those can contain modules |
| 13:11:00 | <david_> | yeah, the main quirk I have at this point is that I have many many executables that will reuse the same common code. |
| 13:11:02 | <eldritchcookie[4> | if you package depend on each other they should be in the same project |
| 13:11:28 | <merijn> | david_: Cabal packages can have multiple executables depending on a library defined in the same package, though :) |
| 13:11:31 | <eldritchcookie[4> | if you have many executable do one package with one library and many executable that will be the easiest |
| 13:11:50 | <merijn> | david_: So you coud just have a package with a library of common code and multiple executables using that same library |
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| 13:14:28 | <david_> | yeah, wondering if I will need a cabal file for each one of the executables |
| 13:14:41 | <eldritchcookie[4> | no one cabal file per package |
| 13:15:07 | <eldritchcookie[4> | in that one you do executable x1 ... |
| 13:15:07 | <eldritchcookie[4> | executable x2 ... etc |
| 13:15:28 | <eldritchcookie[4> | the cabal guide explains everything clearly https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/stable/concepts-and-development.html |
| 13:16:01 | <eldritchcookie[4> | trust me way better than one eldritch cookie helping you |
| 13:18:25 | <david_> | ok, thank you, it can be a bit arcane somehow, so help from experienced users is definitely something in this case :) |
| 13:19:01 | <david_> | I have a short question, can you eventually have a single entrypoint and load some code dynamically in haskell? |
| 13:19:53 | <eldritchcookie[4> | you mean single executable that executes one of the actions? |
| 13:21:18 | <eldritchcookie[4> | if so that is easy just use https://hackage.haskell.org/package/optparse-applicative |
| 13:22:16 | <eldritchcookie[4> | or do you mean like an interpreter? in that case use hint or the gch api |
| 13:22:26 | <eldritchcookie[4> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hint |
| 13:22:44 | <david_> | ok, thank you. It might be more adapted to have a single entry point and call a specific function according to this arguments |
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| 13:28:03 | <[Leary]> | eldritchcookie[4: It sounds like the problem you're trying to solve is equivalent to that of representing binders (such as in the lambda calculus) in data types, without allowing free variables. The usual "nominal" representation won't work, at least not without singletons level type magic. A HOAS, or better, PHOAS approach might suffice. This article <https://www.schoolofhaskell.com/user/edwardk/phoas> is good reading, though you might need to brows |
| 13:28:03 | <[Leary]> | e related articles or papers for a bit of context. |
| 13:29:57 | <eldritchcookie[4> | thanks [Leary] i had no clue how to even begin solving my problem |
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| 13:35:19 | <eldritchcookie[4> | are there some papers or sources which would help explain Higher Order Abstract Syntax? i really understood nothing of the article |
| 13:35:39 | <[exa]> | eldritchcookie[4: how big subset of tex are you targeting? |
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| 13:38:25 | <[exa]> | anyway the HOAS paper is this one https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~fp/papers/pldi88.pdf |
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| 13:40:11 | <eldritchcookie[4> | the most common things itemize, sections, descriptions and tables |
| 13:41:07 | <[exa]> | btw a pretty good material on representing languages is this one https://serokell.io/blog/introduction-tagless-final -- it gives the overview of taggedness vs finalness |
| 13:41:46 | <eldritchcookie[4> | thanks |
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| 13:43:10 | <eldritchcookie[4> | i really love haskell none of the other languages i used made me read a scientific paper |
| 13:43:38 | <[exa]> | you can technically parse out argument numbers and syntaxes out of \newcommand-style definitions, which should give you a quite reasonable coverage even for custom commands (at least pandoc-style) |
| 13:44:26 | <[exa]> | OTOH honestly, tex is wild and this probably won't work for many other "normal" packages, especially the ones that mess with the token processor functionality |
| 13:44:37 | <[exa]> | i.e., verbatim |
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| 13:46:16 | <eldritchcookie[4> | yeah tex is wild but context is really consistent, i bet i still will need to read about luatex internals but one can hope |
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| 13:51:50 | <[exa]> | luatex is wild as well... here you want the view of tex as a markup, which is common, but it's insufficient for many purposes as the only semantics of tex is the interpretation by expansion and shipout |
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| 13:57:53 | <merijn> | [exa]: Thank god LaTeX 3 is somewhat more sane |
| 13:58:31 | <[exa]> | merijn: is it though |
| 13:59:35 | <merijn> | [exa]: Yes, in that it has a single, consistent, well documented format for specifying how to parse arguments over newcommand and custom \makeatletter pain |
| 13:59:49 | <geekosaur> | "somewhat"… and relative to TeX |
| 14:00:57 | <merijn> | I can actually write non-trivial stuff using latex 3, that's more than I can say about latex 2e :p |
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| 14:03:19 | <[exa]> | but wait latex3 is still build upon the tex base, right? |
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| 14:07:12 | <merijn> | [exa]: latex was always just a set of TeX macros, yes |
| 14:07:56 | <merijn> | latex3 just offers replacements for a lot of the newcommand/newenvironment stuff to be more consistent and easier to write more complicated things with |
| 14:08:30 | <merijn> | [exa]: Like the ability to sensibly deal with verbatim arguments, default arguments, etc. |
| 14:09:44 | <[exa]> | ah man, people didn't get it |
| 14:10:03 | <[exa]> | the mantra of latex is "if it's hard to do in latex, you shouldn't do it" |
| 14:10:18 | <merijn> | [exa]: Lots of sensible things are hard to do in latex >.> |
| 14:10:50 | <Henson> | my company's looking to hire a Haskell developer, and I was wondering if anybody has any advice on where to look or other considerations? I think I asked this a year or two ago and people said just post on Indeed and other regular job sites, offer decent pay, and don't expect to find somebody who is close to your office. |
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| 14:11:24 | <Henson> | I often hear non-haskell people say, "it's hard to find Haskell developers", but is that true? |
| 14:11:56 | <Henson> | merijn: I'll second that! |
| 14:12:01 | <[exa]> | Henson: there has been some advice around on how (not) to post job ads on HN |
| 14:12:19 | <merijn> | Henson: "It Depends (TM)" |
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| 14:12:31 | <Henson> | [exa]: what's HN? |
| 14:12:44 | <merijn> | Hacker News |
| 14:13:16 | <Henson> | merijn: I think in the past people told me that Haskell developers are often more experienced developers, so you won't find Haskell developers willing to work for minimum wage. |
| 14:13:35 | <merijn> | Henson: Some tips on "where" are: the Haskell Weekly Newsletter offers for pay job listings, the /r/haskell reddit and haskell-cafe mailing list, here, there's also haskellers.com |
| 14:15:01 | <merijn> | Henson: That is probably true. There's probably not a lot of medior/experienced juniors around (compared to python, java, c#). So your options are basically "super experienced (but those want high pay and may be unwilling to move)" or "inexperienced juniors" |
| 14:15:42 | <Henson> | merijn: are common job posting sites also likely to be fruitful for finding candidates? |
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| 14:17:16 | <merijn> | "maybe" |
| 14:17:24 | <__monty__> | Henson: The whole "Haskell devs are more experienced," is usually the catch. If you're looking for "Haskell" devs as a cryptic way of saying experienced without implying high pay then you'll have a hard time finding anyone. If you're really just looking for people willing to write Haskell, no matter their experience, then it should be possible but it'll probably involve some training. Basically the |
| 14:17:30 | <__monty__> | same thing merijn's saying. |
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| 14:18:41 | <[exa]> | Henson: also just smash it in #-offtopic, I recall there were people who were seeking jobs there. :D |
| 14:19:14 | <merijn> | tbh, Haskell job openings are solidly "on topic" materials if not being spammed |
| 14:20:19 | <Henson> | no, I'm just looking for somebody who knows Haskell. Even if they're not really experienced, just knowing the FP mindset, how to code in Haskell, how to use Monads and transformers, laziness, etc. without them taking a year to learn it would be great. They'd be working on an existing codebase that would give them structure to work with. |
| 14:20:42 | <Henson> | merijn: can you rephrase what you just said? |
| 14:21:07 | <merijn> | Henson: which part? :p |
| 14:21:51 | <Henson> | merijn: the "Haskell job openings are solidly "on topic" materials if not being spammed" |
| 14:22:45 | <merijn> | Henson: [exa]: Was implying job openings could be posted in #haskell-offtopic. I was just saying that announcing you have an opening would be "on topic" for Haskell, as long as it's nog being spammed every hour or something :) |
| 14:23:49 | <Henson> | merijn: ahhhhh, ok, now I understand. |
| 14:24:24 | <Henson> | merijn: it was the IRC chat context of the sentence I was missing. |
| 14:24:58 | <geekosaur> | I'd be fine with it repeated every 8 hours or so, given that not everyone lives in the same timezone |
| 14:26:00 | <geekosaur> | although at that point there might be better venues such as cafe or maybe the discourse |
| 14:26:37 | <merijn> | Maybe I should check out the discourse thingy at some point...so far it feels to newfangled and zoomer for me :p |
| 14:26:55 | Henson | chuckles |
| 14:27:02 | <geekosaur> | enh, it's close enough to the online forums of the 90s |
| 14:29:24 | <darkling> | Sounds horrible. :) |
| 14:31:06 | <Henson> | thanks for the advice everybody, I appreciate it! |
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| 14:35:15 | <merijn> | geekosaur: I doubt there's enough inline HTML shenanigans for that |
| 14:35:42 | <geekosaur> | 🙂 |
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| 14:39:15 | <geekosaur> | or <marquee> |
| 14:44:38 | <merijn> | Flaming text! |
| 14:45:06 | <darkling> | You have to have an "under construction" animated GIF in there somewhere, too. |
| 14:45:59 | <gensyst> | We need a StrictNamedFieldPuns so we can do { !foo }, equivalent to {foo = !foo} |
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| 15:03:44 | <merijn> | Man, the ease with which you can browse docs for old versions on Hackage is so nice... |
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| 15:13:27 | <gensyst> | merijn, what do you mean? |
| 15:13:37 | <gensyst> | and compared to what? |
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| 15:21:36 | <sm> | versioned docs are good 👍🏻 |
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| 15:27:05 | <cheater> | Henson: are you there? |
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| 15:29:09 | <merijn> | gensyst: This thought triggered by me trying to browse documentation for old versions of a python library and being completely unable to find them |
| 15:30:56 | <Henson> | cheater: yes, I'm still here |
| 15:33:37 | <gensyst> | merijn, ok i see |
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| 15:39:48 | <mauke> | merijn: I think it's still kind of clumsy compared to CPAN |
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| 16:32:45 | <Guest75> | Hello. When using cata recustion scheme (catamorphism), may I make my F-algebra a different type, namely a monad, i.e. not just f a -> a, but, say, f a -> Maybe a? Is there any other rec. scheme for such case? |
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| 16:44:23 | <ncf> | Guest75: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/data-fix-0.3.2/docs/Data-Fix.html#v:foldFixM ? |
| 16:44:25 | <[exa]> | Guest75: IIRC there were specialized versions of the schemes for that |
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| 16:44:57 | <Guest75> | cool. thanks! |
| 16:45:25 | <ncf> | also https://github.com/recursion-schemes/recursion-schemes/issues/3#issuecomment-229367877 |
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| 16:50:01 | <Square> | If you should attend one Haskell conference, which one should it be? |
| 16:52:07 | <[exa]> | ICFP-associated workshops are a kinda traditional venue, and some of the zurihac-style events are really cool too |
| 16:52:40 | <[exa]> | (there was something in München this year but I forgot the name) |
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| 16:57:38 | <cheater> | go to icfp |
| 16:58:25 | <monochrom> | Haskell Love is a better fit the description "Haskell conference". |
| 16:58:35 | <monochrom> | s/fit/fit to/ |
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| 17:09:00 | <Joao003> | what is this s/ thingy |
| 17:09:18 | <Rembane> | Joao003: sed syntax for replacing stuff |
| 17:09:26 | <Rembane> | Joao003: s/replace this/with this/ |
| 17:09:41 | <Joao003> | what is sed |
| 17:10:12 | <yushyin> | sed - stream editor for filtering and transforming text (cli regex tool) |
| 17:10:15 | <Rembane> | An ancient UNIX tool, it's still very useful |
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| 17:11:45 | <darkling> | The first time I got my hands on a Linux box, I couldn't find an editor, but I knew about "man" and "sed", and configured the entire machine (including writing an XF86config file) with just sed. :) |
| 17:11:56 | <Rembane> | Lovely! |
| 17:12:55 | <darkling> | The machine was, unfortunately, so cramped on RAM that X was unusable, even with twm. It took about 5 minutes of swapping just to draw the root menu... :) |
| 17:13:08 | <yushyin> | darkling: you seem to like to torture yourself |
| 17:13:54 | <monochrom> | Or s/tortue/challenge/ |
| 17:14:19 | <[exa]> | I guess you guys saw this already but it's a good time to just put it here: https://aurelio.net/projects/sedarkanoid/arkanoid.sed.html |
| 17:14:21 | <monochrom> | Now build a PC emulator on top of one of those Lego Turing machines and repeat the experiment >:) |
| 17:14:27 | <darkling> | It was a 25 MHz ARM3 with 8 MiB of RAM and a 243 MiB hard disk. |
| 17:15:00 | <Joao003> | Wait those 3 slashes make me remember of that /// esolang |
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| 17:20:38 | <tomsmeding> | Joao003: "/// (pronounced "slashes"), or Slashalash, is a minimalist Turing-complete esoteric programming language, invented by Tanner Swett (User:Ihope127) in 2006 based on the "s/foo/bar/" notation that everybody seemed to be using in IRC. " |
| 17:20:48 | <tomsmeding> | you knew sed notation before you knew it was called sed notation |
| 17:20:53 | <tomsmeding> | https://esolangs.org/wiki//// |
| 17:22:29 | <monochrom> | Ugh that comes full circle. :) |
| 17:23:17 | <Joao003> | Hello World in ///: |
| 17:23:20 | <Joao003> | Hello, World! |
| 17:23:27 | <Joao003> | Here's a cooler version: |
| 17:23:59 | <Joao003> | / Hello Hello/, World!/Hello Hello Hello |
| 17:24:29 | <Joao003> | ignore the space at the beginning, it's so that irc doesn't interpret it as a command |
| 17:25:11 | <mauke> | the substitute command s/// originated in ed, and from there made its way into sed, ex, and vi |
| 17:25:18 | <Joao003> | lol |
| 17:25:27 | <Joao003> | // was probably inspired by it |
| 17:25:33 | <mauke> | and thence vim and perl |
| 17:25:37 | <Joao003> | considering the only thing you can do is replace things |
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| 17:25:45 | <darkling> | Did ed have any ancestry in TECO? |
| 17:25:55 | <Joao003> | s/\/\//\/\/\// |
| 17:26:37 | <mauke> | (also, / has no special meaning in IRC-the-protocol. you'll have to take that one up with your IRC client) |
| 17:27:36 | <Joao003> | s/IRC-the-protocol/the IRC protocol/ |
| 17:27:59 | <Joao003> | also if there are slashes do you need to escape them with \ |
| 17:28:31 | <geekosaur> | yes |
| 17:28:52 | <darkling> | In sed, you can use any character, so s://:/: would work just as well as s/\/\//\// (and is more readable) |
| 17:28:54 | <Joao003> | for example if i want to convert * into / i use s/*/\// |
| 17:29:14 | <mauke> | well, you could also switch to another delimiter: s!/foo/!/bar/! |
| 17:29:18 | <Joao003> | but then you need to escape : |
| 17:29:29 | <geekosaur> | you can actually use any printable character as separator; / is just convention. s,\*,/, |
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| 17:29:45 | <Joao003> | "any character"? what about \? |
| 17:30:12 | <Joao003> | what do you use to escape \ ? |
| 17:30:14 | <geekosaur> | depends on the program. at least one I've run into accepted it and turned off escaping |
| 17:30:46 | <Joao003> | \ is not used very often |
| 17:31:04 | <Joao003> | so thats why its used for escaping characters |
| 17:31:13 | <geekosaur> | (more correctly, escaped everything for the purposes of e.g. regex metacharacters, but you couldn't then escape \ for the delimiter) |
| 17:31:44 | <Joao003> | s/// probably inspired js' regex syntax |
| 17:32:29 | <mauke> | I'm 99.9% sure JS took that one from Perl |
| 17:33:06 | <Joao003> | the // and then the flags |
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| 17:33:26 | <Joao003> | if im correct sed also had the flags |
| 17:33:40 | <geekosaur> | a limited set of them, yes. as did ed |
| 17:33:48 | <geekosaur> | in particular, /i |
| 17:33:58 | <Joao003> | and only /i? |
| 17:33:59 | <darkling> | And /g |
| 17:34:01 | <geekosaur> | sed added /t label among others |
| 17:34:12 | <geekosaur> | and /g, yes |
| 17:34:29 | <Joao003> | g for global |
| 17:34:29 | <darkling> | /g is about the only one I use in practice. |
| 17:34:33 | <Joao003> | like in javascript |
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| 17:35:31 | <Joao003> | it goes and checks for every match, right? |
| 17:35:33 | <darkling> | sed also used // to delimit regexes in line selectors: 3,/^foo/s/bar/baz/ # "For every line between line 3 and the next line that starts with foo, replace bar with baz" |
| 17:36:11 | <geekosaur> | and, confusingly, allowed you to switch delimiter with \ iirc |
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| 17:36:53 | <Joao003> | s/foo/bar/g substitute every foo for a bar |
| 17:36:53 | <geekosaur> | 3,\,foo,s!!bar!g |
| 17:37:09 | <darkling> | Oh, nice. Didn't know about that. |
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| 17:38:11 | <Joao003> | 1,3s/Hello/World/g |
| 17:38:35 | <Joao003> | would probably substitute every Hello to a World in lines between 1 and 3 |
| 17:38:46 | <geekosaur> | yes |
| 17:39:25 | <Joao003> | so sed is just a find & replace with regex |
| 17:39:54 | <darkling> | No, it's more than that. |
| 17:40:02 | <darkling> | We're just concentrating on the s command. |
| 17:40:06 | <Joao003> | oh |
| 17:40:39 | <geekosaur> | [exa] pointed to an example of what sed can do |
| 17:40:49 | <geekosaur> | if you value your sanity, though, don't 🙂 |
| 17:40:57 | <Joao003> | s,s/a/b/,s/c/d/, |
| 17:40:59 | <darkling> | I've seen a ray-tracer written in sed. :) |
| 17:41:18 | <Joao003> | substitution substitution |
| 17:42:05 | <Joao003> | also substitution substitution sounds like that "police police police police police police police police" thingy |
| 17:42:35 | <Joao003> | also can sed multiply stringsd |
| 17:42:41 | <Joao003> | strings* |
| 17:43:21 | <mauke> | multiply in what sense? |
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| 17:43:28 | <geekosaur> | sed is turing complete, so yes |
| 17:43:38 | <Joao003> | make copies for example string -> stringstring |
| 17:43:44 | <darkling> | You can do back-references in your search/replace, so yes. |
| 17:43:50 | <Joao003> | how |
| 17:44:53 | <geekosaur> | use \( \) to capture part or all of the regex and \1, \2, etc. to reference them in either the pattern or the replacement |
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| 17:45:40 | <darkling> | Take a look through the man page -- it's pretty short, but it lists all the commands with a short description. |
| 17:45:57 | <Joao003> | sorry i don't use linux |
| 17:46:02 | <Joao003> | ok i will use wsl |
| 17:46:05 | <yushyin> | is this #unixtools or #haskell? ;D |
| 17:46:12 | <Joao003> | lol |
| 17:46:23 | <Joao003> | yeah the topic diverged too far |
| 17:46:43 | <darkling> | Template Haskell? No need, I've got sed! |
| 17:47:32 | <Joao003> | s/\(string\)/\1\1/g would search for every "string" and replace it with "stringstring" |
| 17:48:05 | <darkling> | Yes, although fairly pointless in this case, since "string" is constant, so you could just write "stringstring" instead of "\1\1" |
| 17:51:18 | <mauke> | in Perl, that would be s/(string)/$1$1/g (here $1 is a real variable, usable outside) |
| 17:51:48 | <mauke> | that's what JavaScript copied for its str.replace(/(string)/g, '$1$1') |
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| 17:53:51 | <geekosaur> | sed also has a "memory" via the g, h, and x commands. it's remembered across lines |
| 17:54:01 | <geekosaur> | "hold space" |
| 17:55:01 | <Joao003> | but less bytes |
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| 17:56:29 | <darkling> | The one thing that sed is annoyingly bad at in text processing is dealing with line endings -- if you want to, say, concatenate two lines into one, it's always a struggle that's more easily dealt with in some other tool. |
| 17:57:44 | <geekosaur> | actually I think that's N;s/\n// |
| 17:58:41 | <[exa]> | darkling: you can always temporarily `tr` the endings to say \x01 and completely ignore the sed semantics |
| 17:58:58 | <darkling> | geekosaur: I don't think I ever had much luck with doing it that way, but I'll try to remember for next time. |
| 17:59:58 | <Joao003> | i'd use vscode's ctrl+h with the regex option |
| 18:00:21 | <geekosaur> | some old versions of sed didn't support matching \n, iirc, but gnu sed's fine with it |
| 18:00:33 | <geekosaur> | think it was v7 and old bsd sed that didn't |
| 18:01:16 | <Joao003> | geekosaur: also what's the deal with g h and x |
| 18:01:29 | <Inst> | can you help me debug a weird issue? |
| 18:01:50 | <Inst> | execWriterT outperforms foldl', foldM |
| 18:01:56 | <geekosaur> | Joao003, look up "sed hold space" |
| 18:02:29 | <[exa]> | Inst: is it a strict writer or a lazy writer? |
| 18:02:37 | <Inst> | CPS |
| 18:02:46 | <Inst> | StateT.Strict also gets the same performance |
| 18:03:14 | <geekosaur> | Joao003, g replaces the pattern space with the hold space; h replaces the hold space with the pattern space; x swaps them |
| 18:03:35 | <geekosaur> | g and h have uppercase versions and append instead of replacing |
| 18:03:41 | <[exa]> | Inst: might be the case that the foldl' is actually not forced along the computation? |
| 18:04:04 | <[exa]> | Inst: btw I guess if you can pastebin a small reproducer it would be much easier to judge |
| 18:04:47 | <Inst> | ugh, i just sprung a space leak |
| 18:04:51 | <Inst> | debugging that instead |
| 18:05:25 | <geekosaur> | s/and append/that append/ |
| 18:06:33 | <Inst> | i can reproduce, but i think it has to do with list fusion failing or something |
| 18:06:51 | <Inst> | it's a dumb issue thta i can't really fix |
| 18:07:00 | <Inst> | the native idiom for what i'm trying to do should be foldM |
| 18:07:15 | <Inst> | resorting to WriterT or StateT is horrible |
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| 18:08:43 | <Joao003> | now i understand |
| 18:09:32 | <Inst> | the code roughly looks like this |
| 18:09:38 | <Joao003> | that line concatenation thingy can be solved with g and h can't it |
| 18:09:40 | <Inst> | the go is the helper for the foldM, or rather got modified from it |
| 18:10:02 | <Joao003> | also geekosaur let's move to #haskell-offtopic |
| 18:10:21 | <geekosaur> | yeh, I was thinking we're past that point already |
| 18:11:00 | <Joao003> | there's another conversation starting |
| 18:11:37 | <Joao003> | im moving now |
| 18:12:01 | <Inst> | this is the foldM version of go for |
| 18:12:06 | <Inst> | @[exa] |
| 18:12:06 | <lambdabot> | Unknown command, try @list |
| 18:12:07 | <Inst> | go !a _ = ($ a) . bool (second succ) (first succ) <$> (runReaderT montyHall' $! config) |
| 18:12:11 | <Inst> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/bgy0dpeS |
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| 18:26:41 | <glguy> | Inst: are you basically trying to do this? https://paste.tomsmeding.com/GCtLgEp9 |
| 18:27:24 | <Inst> | ya |
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| 18:31:47 | <andrew2> | Is there a way to implement a type family with kind `Bool -> *`? |
| 18:32:32 | <glguy> | yes |
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| 18:34:01 | <andrew2> | the only thing I managed to implement is something like `data family Choose (b :: Bool) :: *` but then i can't use `Choose` unapplied |
| 18:34:16 | <glguy> | Right, you can't use type families unapplied |
| 18:34:57 | <glguy> | but you can use data families unapplied |
| 18:35:17 | <andrew2> | what's the difference? |
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| 18:36:44 | <glguy> | Do you know the difference between using normal 'type' and 'data'? (not families) |
| 18:37:45 | <Joao003> | why not make the 'data' have 2 constructors |
| 18:38:03 | <andrew2> | I guess? `type` is for synonyms and `data` defines inhabitants for the type |
| 18:38:13 | <glguy> | andrew2: ok, same idea |
| 18:38:37 | <Inst> | any clue why the foldM underperforms a writerT CPS? |
| 18:38:48 | <andrew2> | Joao003 I have another typeclass with associated family with kind `Bool -> *` |
| 18:38:54 | <Joao003> | oh |
| 18:39:04 | <Inst> | writerT CPS becomes a bit shakey if I use replicateM instead of replicateM_ |
| 18:39:32 | <glguy> | Inst: that'd depend on your code. I didn't see any foldM in the paste |
| 18:40:25 | <Inst> | this is the foldM version |
| 18:40:25 | <Inst> | foldM go (MkMHWL 0 0) (runReaderT montyHall' $! config) |
| 18:40:33 | <Inst> | go !a _ = ($ a) . bool (second succ) (first succ) <$> (runReaderT montyHall' $! config) |
| 18:41:03 | <andrew2> | okay so now I'm getting error because my data family is not evaluated so `Imp 'False` is not equal to the type I've given it. |
| 18:41:49 | <andrew2> | which I guess is what you meant glguy `Impl 'False` is now it's own type rather than reducing to its right-hand-side |
| 18:42:01 | <glguy> | yeah, it's not a synonym, it's a new type |
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| 18:42:33 | <glguy> | it's got its own value constructors distinct from any other value constructors |
| 18:43:29 | <glguy> | Inst: replicateM_ with writer doesn't generate the intermediate list |
| 18:43:45 | <Inst> | yeah, but the direct loop versions seem unperformant too |
| 18:43:59 | <glguy> | what's the direct loop version? |
| 18:44:00 | <andrew2> | So is there no way to have for example `f :: Impl 'False -> IO ()` be called with `f x` if `x :: Int` and `data instance Impl False = Int` ? |
| 18:45:02 | <glguy> | data instance Impl False = Int -- this probably doesn't mean what you thought it meant |
| 18:45:10 | <glguy> | This is introducing a new value constructor Int |
| 18:45:17 | <glguy> | nothing to do with the type Int |
| 18:45:18 | <andrew2> | (or vice-versa, I guess I'm doing the opposite and I have `f :: Int -> IO ()` and I have `x :: Impl 'False` and call `f x`) |
| 18:45:41 | <glguy> | Impl 'False has a single (non-bottom) value: Int |
| 18:46:34 | <andrew2> | so how do I implement `Bool -> *` so that it returns two different types depending on the bool? |
| 18:46:54 | <glguy> | Inst: your loop implementation is not the direct loop version, it's building up a massive thunk |
| 18:47:19 | <glguy> | andrew2: Youd need to use a type family for that |
| 18:47:20 | <Inst> | how? |
| 18:47:45 | <andrew2> | glguy but then we're back to square1: how do I use an unapplied type family? |
| 18:47:57 | <glguy> | you don't |
| 18:48:17 | <glguy> | What you're asking about isn't something you can do, so you'll need to take a step backward first |
| 18:48:18 | <andrew2> | so the answer is that we cannot implement a type-level function `Bool -> *`? |
| 18:48:31 | <andrew2> | okay |
| 18:48:37 | <andrew2> | I'll try something else then, tahnks! |
| 18:49:03 | <glguy> | Inst: simplified down, you have this: loop 0 acc = acc; loop n acc = loop (n-1) (f acc) |
| 18:49:28 | <glguy> | so loop 3 x becomes: f (f (f x)) |
| 18:49:32 | <Joao003> | what about that f |
| 18:49:44 | <Joao003> | oh |
| 18:50:08 | <Joao003> | \f -> loop 3 |
| 18:50:17 | <Joao003> | you're supposed to use it like that? |
| 18:50:29 | <Inst> | the version you have looks TCO |
| 18:50:37 | <Inst> | in reality, the problem is >> breaks TCO |
| 18:50:40 | <Inst> | guarded recursion |
| 18:51:13 | <glguy> | you can build up big thunks with TCO just fine |
| 18:51:28 | <glguy> | like we see here in loop |
| 18:51:56 | <Inst> | i mean in your version you could just, well, $1 and force the (f acc) chunk |
| 18:51:56 | <Joao003> | what is TCO |
| 18:51:58 | <Inst> | thunk |
| 18:51:59 | <monochrom> | The simplistic TC-vs-not-TC is grossly insufficient to understand the consequences of lazy evaluation. |
| 18:52:02 | <Inst> | tail call optimization |
| 18:52:49 | <glguy> | Inst: since you're building up a value with type (IO _), seq'ing that isn't going to help with building up the big thing |
| 18:53:15 | <Inst> | seq fmap seq... |
| 18:53:17 | <glguy> | or maybe you're not, it's hard to tell given the fragment of code we have |
| 18:53:28 | <glguy> | Inst: no, fmapping seq into an IO value doesn't do anything |
| 18:53:34 | <Inst> | is foldM generally useful instead of a stateful accumulator? |
| 18:53:36 | <glguy> | you still have an IO thing |
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| 18:54:13 | <Inst> | like, i'm obviously at fault, but is it acceptable to blame Haskell for foldM's lack of optimization? |
| 18:54:36 | <glguy> | it's not foldM's fault if you're building up a list you didn't need to build up so that you can use foldM |
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| 18:54:53 | <monochrom> | Perhaps don't blame anything at all? |
| 18:55:09 | <Joao003> | what is tail call optimization all about |
| 18:55:16 | <monochrom> | Investigate and rethink. Don't blame. |
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| 18:55:53 | <Inst> | foldM is generally useful when it comes to list fusion, though, so I don't get it |
| 18:56:18 | <Inst> | I just want a more succinct idiom than execWriter $ writerWrapper |
| 18:56:27 | <glguy> | If you're generating that list with replicateM, then there's no fusion. The whole list has to be constructed first before foldM comes into view |
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| 18:56:50 | <Inst> | erm, replicateM count writerWrapper |
| 18:56:51 | <Joao003> | why not make the idiom into a function |
| 18:57:14 | <Inst> | the list foldM is working on is [1..counter] |
| 18:57:16 | <Inst> | typical iterator |
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| 19:04:14 | <Joao003> | chat dead? |
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| 19:05:11 | <monochrom> | Yes. |
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| 19:06:27 | <Joao003> | sad. |
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| 19:20:49 | <juri_> | worth a shot: there doesn't happen to be someone here with more (read: any) experience in numerical analysis, who wants to help complete a 2D projective geometry engine? i'm running out of braincells to burn. ;) |
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| 19:31:26 | <Joao003> | lol |
| 19:32:31 | <monochrom> | Would you accept a 3D projective geometry engine and then just kill one dimension? Because the former is just OpenGL etc. >:) |
| 19:34:09 | <monochrom> | Inspired by this joke: Q: How do you visualize 6 dimensions? A: Visualize n dimensions, then let n=6. |
| 19:35:10 | <darkling> | It's the easy way to do it. :) |
| 19:35:34 | <darkling> | (And with more than a little truth in it) |
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| 20:07:44 | <juri_> | monochrom: sadly, that's not a PGA system. :P |
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| 20:31:29 | <juri_> | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tX4H_ctggYo , if you're interested in learning some new math stuffs. |
| 20:32:39 | <tomsmeding> | _projective_ geometry |
| 20:32:45 | <tomsmeding> | that takes me back to math class |
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| 20:35:23 | <juri_> | i never had that type of math class, unfortunately. might have saved me a few years writing this PGA geometry engine. |
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| 20:45:41 | <tomsmeding> | juri_: if you spent a few years getting familiar with this stuff you know much more about it than I vaguely remember from some class 5 years ago |
| 20:47:24 | <juri_> | tomsmeding: what i'm missing isn't covered in the classes.. i'm doing interval arithmatic, using floating point, and having 'fun' coming up with some of the nonexistant formulae. hense, needing a *bit* of help. ;) |
| 20:47:47 | <tomsmeding> | interesting |
| 20:48:03 | <tomsmeding> | certainly all my class covered was the algebraic stuff :p |
| 20:48:20 | <juri_> | yeah, i'm a bit over the edge. :) |
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| 20:50:14 | <juri_> | I've started doing some things that are correct, from a numerical sense. my property tests can really ruin my day. :) |
| 20:52:05 | <juri_> | https://github.com/Haskell-Things/HSlice/blob/tip/Graphics/Slicer/Math/PGAPrimitives.hs , if you want to know what this looks like in haskell. ;) |
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| 21:00:06 | <EvanR> | floating point interval arithmetic, sounds dicey |
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| 21:01:47 | <EvanR> | if you add two intervals, the result may need to be adjusted due to round off error? |
| 21:03:04 | <EvanR> | because the natural rounding behavior goes the wrong way |
| 21:04:29 | <tomsmeding> | EvanR: I saw "Ulp" in that code so I think juri_ is aiming for that level of precision |
| 21:05:07 | <EvanR> | hardcore |
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| 21:06:09 | <juri_> | EvanR: you get to tell the FPU what direction to round things. |
| 21:06:50 | <juri_> | i'm using the Rounded library for that. |
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| 21:07:53 | <juri_> | so i do all of the math twice: once "as close to right as possible", once again in "make sure you round UP", then i save the unit of last precision, so i know the error range of the calculation. |
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| 21:10:41 | <juri_> | its almost coming together, but i think i'll need someone with at least a PHD in the subject (or equivalent experience. ;) ) to look over my logic, because there are a few "magic numbers", and probably some bad logic still baked in. |
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| 21:27:47 | <EvanR> | the error range of the error range xD |
| 21:28:20 | <EvanR> | error is too important to be left to unnecessarily large error |
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| 21:34:09 | <juri_> | EvanR: these are really tiny values, in the end. its just that in some cases, you need tiny values within certain ranges derived from those values... |
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| 21:35:47 | <EvanR> | and when the difference is like 1 ULP, how do you even name that value xD |
| 21:36:37 | <EvanR> | (switch to interval arithmetic with rationals or computable reals maybe) |
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| 21:38:19 | <juri_> | it depends. right now, i'm saving all of the error from all of the possible operations in a type, and using it to reason. |
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