Logs on 2023-02-05 (liberachat/#haskell)
| 00:01:16 | <sm> | https://leanpub.com/production-haskell has a section on it ("17.1 On Debug.Trace"). Excellent! |
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| 00:02:57 | <sm> | darkling: slightly chaotic but useful trace helpers: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hledger-lib-1.28/docs/Hledger-Utils-Debug.html |
| 00:03:55 | <sm> | chaotic good |
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| 00:07:12 | <int-e> | monochrom: actually do we know whether the pattern is dons' or dcoutts'? |
| 00:07:48 | <monochrom> | Oh! I don't know, maybe dcoutts instead. |
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| 00:54:31 | <Hammdist> | data Thing = Thing [Thing] how do I derive Arbitrary for it |
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| 01:10:52 | <Hammdist> | looks like arbitrary = Thing <$> arbitrary works |
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| 01:13:47 | <Hammdist> | https://paste.ee/p/4NRL5 two questions (A) why does the input string to ptwr sometimes end in ")" and (B) why does quickcheck hang? |
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| 01:22:19 | <Hammdist> | it seems the extra ")" can be eliminated by passing s through show |
| 01:22:29 | <Hammdist> | not sure what that's about though |
| 01:22:44 | <Hammdist> | the hanging might be due to generation of excessively large things |
| 01:23:29 | <geekosaur> | monochrom has a story there, yes |
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| 01:24:10 | <geekosaur> | there's a decent chance that it's doing 50/50 on choice of building your tree nodes, which if you do the math leads to infinite trees |
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| 01:26:38 | <Hammdist> | at this point I'm not sure quickcheck is saving any time over just writing up some test cases |
| 01:27:46 | <sm> | 👍️ |
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| 01:38:33 | <c_wraith> | I found myself using quickcheck in a way I don't see anyone else talk about. When I was testing a data structure, instead of generating values of the structure with it, I generated sequences of modifications. Then I'd test to ensure that all required properties held after each modification. |
| 01:39:03 | <c_wraith> | But the core part of it was that I wasn't generating the data structure itself |
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| 01:51:16 | <sm> | also note quickcheck has multiple competitors which claim to be easier to use in some ways |
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| 02:07:38 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | i want gptcheck |
| 02:13:29 | <int-e> | . o O ( "Your code looks really excellent today. I found no single bug, except for the fact that 2 + 2 = 5." ) |
| 02:13:50 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | haha you joke but making up variations on realistic inputs could be pretty great |
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| 02:34:35 | <sclv> | i think many of the competitors are not about ease of use but specifying different sorts of search -- i.e. small and exhaustive inputs, etc |
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| 02:38:10 | <sclv> | vis a vis generating infinite values, i'd take a look at writing a custom generator that makes use of size, as in https://hackage.haskell.org/package/QuickCheck-2.14.2/docs/Test-QuickCheck-Gen.html#v:getSize |
| 02:39:54 | <sclv> | or if you're generating a list, it actually already does, and all you really need to do is add a resize or scale to each call to reduce the size as you recur. |
| 02:40:36 | <sclv> | or use "frequency" to give extra weight to the empty list :-) |
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| 02:40:59 | <sclv> | but that's only probabilistically terminating, while resizing is definitively so |
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| 06:25:25 | <talismanick> | Say I have a record type with 2 fields, Stmt{stmtTxt, stmtVar} |
| 06:25:42 | <talismanick> | How can I fmap it into another statment to assign in lexicographic order? |
| 06:25:49 | <talismanick> | something shorter than `(\(str, lst) -> Stmt{stmtText = str, stmtExVar = lst}` |
| 06:26:29 | <talismanick> | into another container* |
| 06:27:20 | <Maxdamantus> | looks like `uncurry Stmt` to me. |
| 06:27:50 | <talismanick> | thanks, it works |
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| 08:11:00 | <mauke> | @unpl uncurry Stmt |
| 08:11:01 | <lambdabot> | uncurry Stmt |
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| 08:44:05 | <Athas> | Man, this maintenance stuff is hard. |
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| 08:59:11 | <tomsmeding> | Athas: what are you maintaining |
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| 09:23:27 | <int-e> | composure? |
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| 10:49:28 | <Guest8275> | vHey Everyone , My name is Utsav from india currently pursuing B.tech wants to contribute in Haskell ,Please anyone tell me how to contribute in this.. |
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| 13:07:05 | <maerwald[m]> | Guest8275: the language? |
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| 13:43:58 | <stefan-_> | when I run `stack test/run` all source files will be re-compiled most of the time, even if only 1 file was changed |
| 13:44:02 | <stefan-_> | I use intellij-haskell as IDE |
| 13:44:19 | <stefan-_> | any ideas how the recompilation can be avoided? |
| 13:48:33 | <byorgey> | stefan-_: see https://github.com/commercialhaskell/stack/issues/4977 for some workarounds |
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| 13:56:55 | <stefan-_> | byorgey, thanks, I also found this: https://github.com/rikvdkleij/intellij-haskell/issues/475 |
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| 14:34:44 | <Hammdist> | is Data.List.Index.imap the recommended way to map with index? |
| 14:37:09 | <Hammdist> | Data.List.Index doesn't seem to be installed by default |
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| 14:42:56 | <mniip> | Hammdist, zipping with [0..] is the standard way in the code bases I've seen |
| 14:43:24 | <mniip> | Or you might want to zip with [1..]! |
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| 14:43:50 | <mniip> | One of those cases where factoring out a function is not a particularly great idea |
| 14:45:39 | ← | jakalx parts (~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) (Error from remote client) |
| 14:51:21 | <yushyin> | or indexed functor from one of the lens libraries |
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| 15:09:59 | <tomsmeding> | going from `map f l` to `zipWith f [0..] l` is such an easy change, and the resulting code has such obvious meaning, that indeed factoring that out into a function would only be worth it if in a particular piece of code you happen to need this pattern _many_ times |
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| 17:05:08 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | https://www.pcmag.com/news/chatgpt-passes-google-coding-interview-for-level-3-engineer-with-183k-salary |
| 17:05:32 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | which soup kitchens does #haskell regard as the best? |
| 17:06:05 | <L29Ah> | borscht |
| 17:06:13 | <[exa]> | the ones operated by chatgpt. |
| 17:06:35 | <Rembane> | I wonder how good ChatGPT would do as a level three engineer at Google. |
| 17:06:41 | <[exa]> | oh man I can't wait for the time when the programmers will finally be obsolete |
| 17:07:07 | <Rembane> | [exa]: What are you gonna do when that happens? |
| 17:07:15 | <[exa]> | operate the soup kitchen |
| 17:07:35 | <L29Ah> | replace your obsolete programmers with Microsoft® AI© CodeWorkers™ now! |
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| 17:08:43 | <[exa]> | like, AFAIK a pretty big chunk of google's workforce is dealing with&supporting people who invest in ads, and the chatgpt may save millions there |
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| 17:09:13 | <Rembane> | That sounds good |
| 17:09:21 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | L29Ah: type error: not a soup kitchen |
| 17:10:01 | <L29Ah> | segfaultfizzbuzz: ENOENT |
| 17:10:03 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | [exa]: lol |
| 17:10:18 | <[exa]> | kinda reminds me of birchpunk btw, I wonder what these guys do now |
| 17:10:26 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | birchpunk? |
| 17:10:56 | <[exa]> | search it on youtube, it's quite eastern but good |
| 17:13:18 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | i mean tbh i am not sure i am a better programmer than chatgpt |
| 17:13:29 | <[exa]> | (OT danger: here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCH2PTj93fs ) |
| 17:18:20 | <Hammdist> | (x where x = 7) <-- why doesn't this work? what is the syntax for where? |
| 17:18:32 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | [exa]: hedge computing is funny but unfortunately aside from that i didn't really find that funny :-/ |
| 17:19:13 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | [exa]: you owe me the completion of a tutorial on how to make a graph reducer, unfortunately i am a little too busy at the moment to follow through on that |
| 17:19:46 | <[exa]> | segfaultfizzbuzz: ah yeah, well I'm around, feel free to ask |
| 17:20:40 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | "ChatGPT is probably outputting at least 22x the volume of human Twitter users ever day... and the equivalent of the entire printed works of humanity every 14 days" -- lol |
| 17:21:19 | <[exa]> | Hammdist: AFAIK `where` is only valid around definitions, i.e. y=x where x=7 works |
| 17:21:33 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | yeah if you do the calculations on the IO bandwith of all of humanity and the IO bandwith of a high end GPU the difference is rather stark |
| 17:23:08 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | at 96 wpm one person is producing 8 bytes per second (let's forget about compressability, the actual number is significantly lower...) |
| 17:24:17 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | so all of humanity (10^10 people) is 80 GB per second if everyone is awake simultaneously |
| 17:24:59 | <[exa]> | but they also talk and make the weird faces and accents |
| 17:25:18 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | the actual sustainable rate is much lower than that, and the actual output entropy is much lower |
| 17:25:34 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | so all of humanity is probably like 1 GB per second or something like that |
| 17:26:05 | <[exa]> | you should count only "externally useful output", it's gonna be quite low tbh. Anyway let's move to #-offtopic I guess |
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| 17:57:49 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | https://reviews.llvm.org/D118029 -- speak of the devil: "We are introducing branchless variants for sort3, sort4 and sort5. These sorting functions have been generated using Reinforcement Learning and aim to replace sort3, sort4 and __sort5 variants for integral types." |
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| 17:59:02 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | what is Random_4 in this, does that mean sorting 4 elements which come from a random distribution? |
| 17:59:21 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | like uiformly random distribution? they got like 60% speedups for that |
| 17:59:56 | <monochrom> | Wrong channel? |
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| 18:01:05 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | ok well we were just joking around about chatgpt replacing all of us, and then llvm lands some kind of reinforcement-learning originated sorting contribution |
| 18:05:14 | <int-e> | ...what happened to sorting networks... |
| 18:05:41 | <int-e> | (that's the keyword that *should* be in there) |
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| 18:17:29 | <tomsmeding> | not sure what the Machine Learning (tm) produced sorting functions are, they seem to be the ones in libcxx/include/__algorithm/sort.h here? https://reviews.llvm.org/rG194d1965d2c841fa81e107d19e27fae1467e7f11 |
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| 18:17:51 | <tomsmeding> | if so, those are _tiny_, and indeed look like classical sorting networks |
| 18:18:05 | <tomsmeding> | they're only 6 primitives long! |
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| 18:18:48 | <int-e> | TBH I'm inclined to believe that "reinforcement learning" is a joke here. After all that's how humans learn too. |
| 18:19:40 | <tomsmeding> | I suspect it's not a joke, and it's a decent way to come up with these networks if that's your thing, but you know, superoptimisation is a field that exists |
| 18:19:59 | <tomsmeding> | and surely there are less hypey ways to produce sorting networks of length 6 |
| 18:20:26 | <tomsmeding> | I'd expect fancy machine learning to be helpful once you get to length 20 or so |
| 18:20:41 | <tomsmeding> | at that point any kind of brute-force search is hopeless |
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| 18:47:34 | <sclv> | *weird al voice* "this network is ony six prims long" |
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| 22:44:38 | <Inst_> | question |
| 22:44:51 | <Inst_> | why is it possible to define a class that can't be instanced into? |
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| 22:45:07 | <Inst_> | class Lol where; topkek = "kek" |
| 22:50:01 | <jackdk> | https://reasonablypolymorphic.com/blog/abusing-constraints/ |
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| 22:53:28 | <int-e> | Inst_: Hmm you can instantiate that, once. So you could use this to declare a "global" function that is instantiated later... (it's global in the sense that you can only define it once, but you will carry Foo => constraints everywhere you use it and it will be passed as an argument as a result) |
| 22:54:24 | <int-e> | Or Lol => in your case. |
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| 22:59:01 | <Inst_> | nice, thanks |
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| 23:03:19 | <jackdk> | Sandy also defines a couple in the link I posted |
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| 23:04:32 | <Inst_> | weird, not working on ghc |
| 23:04:37 | <Inst_> | erm, ghci |
| 23:06:02 | <int-e> | % class Foo where foo :: Int; foo = 42 |
| 23:06:02 | <yahb2> | <interactive>:18:1: error: ; • No parameters for class ‘Foo’ ; (Enable MultiParamTypeClasses to allow no-parameter classes) ; • In the class declaration for ‘Foo’ |
| 23:06:18 | <int-e> | % :set -XMultiParamTypeClasses |
| 23:06:18 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 23:06:21 | <int-e> | % class Foo where foo :: Int; foo = 42 |
| 23:06:21 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 23:06:28 | <int-e> | % instance Foo where foo = 23 |
| 23:06:28 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 23:06:31 | <int-e> | % foo |
| 23:06:31 | <yahb2> | 23 |
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| 23:07:09 | <int-e> | (just `instance Foo` would pick the default implementation `foo = 42`) |
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| 23:09:55 | <Inst_> | no, i mean, i can't get auto constraints via type inference, but I guess Sandy McGuire points out |
| 23:10:12 | <Inst_> | how nullary typeclasses aren't a misfeature |
| 23:10:57 | ← | czy parts (~user@host-140-21.ilcub310.champaign.il.us.clients.pavlovmedia.net) (ERC 5.4.1 (IRC client for GNU Emacs 30.0.50)) |
| 23:10:58 | <Inst_> | int-e: i was more complaining that I couldn't get ghc to type infer the constraint |
| 23:11:19 | <jackdk> | see also: HasCallStack |
| 23:11:22 | <geekosaur> | % :t foo |
| 23:11:22 | <yahb2> | foo :: Int |
| 23:11:27 | <int-e> | Ah I see, type inference doesn't work for this. |
| 23:11:38 | <int-e> | geekosaur: that's after providing the instance |
| 23:11:54 | <int-e> | Before that you get "No instance for Foo arising from a use of ‘foo’" |
| 23:12:21 | <int-e> | But you /can/ do let x :: Foo => Int; x = foo |
| 23:13:05 | <int-e> | (maybe newer ghci is better, still using 8.10 by default here) |
| 23:14:32 | <int-e> | % :!ghci --version |
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| 23:15:46 | <int-e> | % :show linker |
| 23:15:46 | <yahb2> | ----- Linker state ----- ; Pkgs: [base-4.14.3.0, integer-gmp-1.0.3.0, ghc-prim-0.6.1, ; rts-1.0.1] ; Objs: [] ; BCOs: [LinkableM (2022-06-14 17:45:33.292275656 UTC) Yahb2Defs ; [BC... |
| 23:16:03 | <int-e> | Looks like that's ghc-8.10.7 too. |
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| 23:16:14 | <int-e> | based on the version of `base. |
| 23:16:59 | <int-e> | % print GHC.Version.cProjectVersion |
| 23:16:59 | <yahb2> | "8.10.7" |
| 23:19:09 | <Inst_> | int-e: so why bother with type inference, then? |
| 23:19:16 | <Inst_> | erm, the constraint, then? |
| 23:20:10 | <int-e> | Inst_: I don't know; maybe this is why I've never seen this pattern used :P |
| 23:20:33 | <Inst_> | i can stuff a constraint in, the utility seems to be being able to stuff comments into an arbitrary nullary constraint |
| 23:20:35 | <Inst_> | weird feature |
| 23:21:04 | <int-e> | In any case there's no reason for the compiler to disallow it. And evidently (see above) it can be abused to do something actually useful. |
| 23:21:28 | <geekosaur> | the compiler lets you do other useless things too… |
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| 23:22:19 | <int-e> | Inst_: I mean, compared to changing all functiont to `Int -> a`, if you have `Foo => a` instead you're (mostly; ghc's overlap check isn't perfect) guaranteed that every such function will receive the same value, statically. |
| 23:22:31 | <geekosaur> | @let Just _ = Nothing -- unusable top level binding so never discovers the pattern match fails |
| 23:22:33 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
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| 23:22:58 | <int-e> | Inst_: maybe there's a place where this kind of thing has value |
| 23:23:02 | int-e | shrugs |
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| 23:23:17 | <geekosaur> | I think the only use I've seen for that was some kind of hacker contest |
| 23:23:32 | <Inst_> | w/e, it's exotic, and I guess it's Haskelly to let people mess around and find ways to abuse nullary typeclasses |
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| 23:28:24 | <int-e> | Inst_: The fact that `:t foo` breaks when there's no instance indicates that people don't really use this feature; that smells like a bug and I would be surprised if it was super difficult to fix. |
| 23:29:39 | <Inst_> | okay, posting to GHC issues now |
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| 23:29:56 | <int-e> | maybe there is one already? |
| 23:31:53 | <unit73e> | good thing there's a log or I'd get very confused since I just joined |
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| 23:35:54 | <Inst_> | done |
| 23:35:55 | <Inst_> | https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/22907 |
| 23:36:26 | <Inst_> | tried nullary typeclass, nullary type parameter |
| 23:36:44 | <jackdk> | int-e: That would force every caller of a HasCallStack function to add it to their context, no? |
| 23:37:51 | <int-e> | Inst_: Where's the "where" keyword? |
| 23:38:02 | <Inst_> | class Foo works |
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| 23:38:54 | <int-e> | % :quit |
| 23:38:54 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 23:38:57 | <int-e> | % class Foo |
| 23:38:57 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 23:39:06 | <int-e> | % u :: Foo => Int; u = 3 |
| 23:39:06 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 23:39:10 | <int-e> | % u |
| 23:39:10 | <yahb2> | <interactive>:8:1: error: ; • No instance for Foo arising from a use of ‘u’ ; • In the expression: u ; In an equation for ‘it’: it = u |
| 23:39:14 | <int-e> | % :t u |
| 23:39:14 | <yahb2> | <interactive>:1:1: error: ; • No instance for Foo arising from a use of ‘u’ ; • In the expression: u |
| 23:39:32 | <Inst_> | % :quit |
| 23:39:32 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 23:39:38 | <Inst_> | %: class Foo where |
| 23:39:45 | <Inst_> | % u :: Foo => Int; u = 3 |
| 23:39:45 | <yahb2> | <interactive>:4:6: error: ; Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘Foo’ |
| 23:39:58 | <Inst_> | % class Foo where |
| 23:39:58 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 23:40:02 | <Inst_> | % u :: Foo => Int; u = 3 |
| 23:40:02 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 23:40:03 | <Inst_> | u |
| 23:40:05 | <Inst_> | % u |
| 23:40:05 | <yahb2> | <interactive>:10:1: error: ; • No instance for Foo arising from a use of ‘u’ ; • In the expression: u ; In an equation for ‘it’: it = u |
| 23:40:13 | <Inst_> | % instance Foo |
| 23:40:13 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 23:40:18 | <Inst_> | % u |
| 23:40:18 | <yahb2> | 3 |
| 23:40:46 | <int-e> | all that is expected |
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| 23:40:57 | <Inst_> | % :quit |
| 23:40:57 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 23:40:58 | <int-e> | what isn't expected (to me) is that :t u fails |
| 23:42:52 | <int-e> | and, relatedly, that defining non-monomorphic functions using Foo also fails: v () = u gives a type error instead of inferring v :: Foo => () -> Int |
| 23:44:23 | <int-e> | Inst_: if you expand the "steps to reproduce" in the description, it will be a much better report. |
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| 23:47:05 | <Inst_> | done, as per requested |
All times are in UTC on 2023-02-05.