Logs on 2023-02-19 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 01:17:24 | <albet70> | my project has cabal, when I run cabal run, cabal can't find source for TelegramSendMsg in app |
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| 01:21:42 | <albet70> | how using cabal to compile to a native binary program? |
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| 02:41:47 | <zero> | how do i disable default type warnings on ghci? |
| 02:42:38 | <c_wraith> | zero: :set -w |
| 02:42:49 | <c_wraith> | ok, that disables *all* warnings |
| 02:42:54 | <c_wraith> | but it's fast! |
| 02:43:05 | <zero> | lol |
| 02:43:24 | <zero> | i just want the opposite to :seti -Wtype-defaults |
| 02:43:42 | <c_wraith> | you can just negate the error type |
| 02:43:49 | <c_wraith> | -Wno-type-defaults |
| 02:43:56 | <albet70> | Could not find module ‘GHC.Int.Int64’ is it already in base? |
| 02:44:06 | <zero> | thanks |
| 02:44:52 | <c_wraith> | albet70: that looks like a type, not a modules. the module would be GHC.Int |
| 02:44:55 | <albet70> | oh Int64 is a type |
| 02:46:07 | <albet70> | how to change cabal output path for the generated binary? |
| 02:46:13 | <albet70> | —builddir ? |
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| 03:06:40 | <Duste3> | hi can someone tell me why it can't install base? http://codepad.org/DAfKZQHz |
| 03:07:00 | <Duste3> | it looks like there are multiple versions rejected but they are in the ranges |
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| 03:41:30 | <sclv> | Duste3: base isn’t reinstallalble |
| 03:41:56 | <sclv> | its fixed to whatever ships with ghx |
| 03:41:59 | <sclv> | ghc |
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| 05:01:16 | <zero> | gloss doesn't do anti-alias? |
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| 07:19:29 | <farzad> | Hi! Anyone know of an equivalent of haskells polysemy for purescript? |
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| 10:44:26 | <Mahi> | Hello, my task's instructions tell me to use this function: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/PjMMDUtN and tell me to modify the "events" list with new events added inside the function - but everything I google says I can't modify lists? Any ideas? |
| 10:47:36 | <[exa]> | Mahi: well technically you can't modify anything because of purity |
| 10:47:47 | <Mahi> | I've already written a function that returns a new function with the added event: `addEvent name place date events = ((EventInfo name place date) : events)` but I don't understand how to use this inside the provided IO function |
| 10:47:54 | <Mahi> | returns a new list* |
| 10:48:07 | <[exa]> | but commonly "modifying" means basically making a copy of the list with the stuff replaced where you wanted the changes |
| 10:48:40 | <Mahi> | yes so I'd like to replace the existing `events` variable with my new data, is that possible? |
| 10:49:00 | <[exa]> | yeah |
| 10:49:30 | <[exa]> | I'm still a bit confused about what the function should do, the `loop` is an IO action that continues the processing and returns (), right? |
| 10:50:00 | <[exa]> | and you basically want to enrich the list a bit with a few new events every here and there so that loop does something else? |
| 10:50:04 | <Mahi> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/UB3vijwd |
| 10:50:22 | <Mahi> | yes the loop takes an input string until "Quit" is written |
| 10:50:29 | <Mahi> | And my job is to keep modifying the list based on the input |
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| 10:51:30 | <[exa]> | I kinda fail to see what's the reason to have it wrapped in "IO" but let's leave that for later I guess :D |
| 10:51:52 | <Mahi> | I'm wondering if the original function provided by teachers should instead be this: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/uccc4zDh |
| 10:52:19 | <Mahi> | the original one they provided makes it seem liek I should edit the `events` variable instead of returning a new list? |
| 10:52:22 | <[exa]> | yeah but that doesn't leave you an opportunity to do an IO action (such as printing a response to the command) |
| 10:52:27 | <Mahi> | ahh |
| 10:52:43 | <Mahi> | that explains |
| 10:52:55 | <[exa]> | anyway, do you have an example of an action that you want to run with 1] what it does 2] what id adds to the event list? |
| 10:53:45 | <Mahi> | Input: Event 'Some Event X' happens at 'Some Place Y' on '2019-10-08' should print "Event added" and add the event |
| 10:53:50 | <[exa]> | btw modifying the list is done basically with making a new one, e.g. for prepending you do basically: loop $ return (myEvent : events) |
| 10:54:14 | <Mahi> | yeah that's what threw me off the most, now that you've said it it's obvious :D |
| 10:54:58 | <[exa]> | I still don't really see the reason to have the eventlist wrapped in IO, but I guess that's gonna explain itself with more actions |
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| 10:56:08 | <Mahi> | The only other actions are all like this, Input: "What happens on '2019-10-08'" => prints a list of events |
| 10:56:28 | <Mahi> | similarly "What happens at <place>" and "What is <eventname>" |
| 10:56:34 | <Mahi> | that's all there is to the task |
| 10:57:23 | <[exa]> | anyway at this point I'd go: ...; events <- ioEvents; newEvents <- case parseEvent of {.....} ; loop $ return (newEvents ++ events) |
| 10:57:46 | <[exa]> | errr... parseCommand. :] |
| 10:58:26 | <[exa]> | or so, schematically |
| 10:58:28 | <Mahi> | I was trying to use `do` somehow |
| 10:58:44 | <[exa]> | you actually need to have access to the event list in order to execute the command |
| 10:59:22 | <[exa]> | `do` is for gluing IO actions together (and also of other monadic actions that are of no interest right now) |
| 11:01:52 | <Mahi> | Thanks for the help, I think I need to watch a youtube guide on IO or something, everything else in the task seems simple to me but the printing and reading input |
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| 11:02:38 | <Mahi> | I just can't understand how to do imperative stuff in functional programming :D "print something and return something else entirely" seems imposible |
| 11:04:22 | <[exa]> | Mahi: it's a bit confusing but there are pretty good rule of thumbs on how to do this |
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| 11:05:56 | <[exa]> | in summary, by types: `something` is a plain value that you can access and play with it`. `IO something` is a program that produces the plain value if you run it. Because of purity, you can't run side-effect-causing programs anywhere, the only way to run them is to do it within a larger IO program and let the system to glue the side-effects together to form a larger IO program. |
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| 11:06:44 | <[exa]> | Mahi: `do` notation is exactly the thing that does this gluing, if you write `do program1; program2` it just makes a program that runs both the subprograms in sequence. |
| 11:07:36 | <Mahi> | So why can't I do something like `events <- if blabla then do { print "something"; return someEvents }` |
| 11:07:54 | <[exa]> | Mahi: and to extract the results of programs, you use the <- (or "bind") notation. `do val<-program1; program2 val` constructs a IO program that runs program 1 and feeds its output directly to program2 |
| 11:08:18 | <[exa]> | btw internally these are rewritten to >> and >>=, you may want to examine the types in ghci using say :t (>>) |
| 11:09:21 | <[exa]> | and the only remaining part is return, which constructs a "trivial program" that doesn't really do anything but produces the value that you give it; which is useful for gluing your computation results into the IO programs |
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| 11:10:06 | <[exa]> | in short: `<-` allows you to go from `IO something` (on the right) to `something` (on the left), `return` does the reverse, and everything you put into `do` must be an `IO whatever` program |
| 11:10:40 | <[exa]> | s/put into/run in/ -- probably a better wording |
| 11:11:08 | <Mahi> | Hmm thank you very much |
| 11:11:11 | <[exa]> | the code you pasted will probably be rejected by a typechecker |
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| 11:11:50 | <[exa]> | `print "something" :: IO ()` (program that returns an "empty" value), but `return someEvents :: IO [EventInfo]` |
| 11:12:27 | <[exa]> | in turn, if you would do `events <- ....`; it wouldn't know if events should be () or [EventInfo] |
| 11:13:30 | <[exa]> | btw there are various ways to circumvent that, for example you can do `do print "something"; return []` which is a IO program that prints what you want and still returns a type-compatible list |
| 11:13:53 | <[exa]> | (equivalent notation: print "something" >> return [] ) |
| 11:14:02 | <[exa]> | (without `do` ^) |
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| 11:15:22 | <Mahi> | hmm yes yes, I'm starting to get a hang of it :D thank you for the help |
| 11:16:03 | <[exa]> | it takes some practice but becomes pretty intuitive later |
| 11:16:10 | <Mahi> | let's hope so |
| 11:17:24 | <[exa]> | btw many people tend to think that the IO actually "runs" a side effect; that's a practical but slightly misleading view. In fact you're building a description of a huge `main :: IO ()` program that the haskell runtime then later interprets |
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| 13:12:32 | <bramhaag> | I'm trying to parse a String that can only contain alphanumeric characters, -, and _ using megaparsec. The first and last character should not be a - or _, and the string has to be at least 1 character long. I expressed it as the following regular expression: [a-zA-Z0-9]+ ([_-]+ [a-zA-Z0-9]+)*. Directly translating this regex to megaparsec gives me |
| 13:12:32 | <bramhaag> | a rather ugly parser, an attempt to reduce the amount of many and some calls also did not make it more readable (https://paste.tomsmeding.com/jGFf05nu). Is there an easier way to define this? |
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| 13:30:37 | <int-e> | Something like this maybe: (:) <$> alphaNumChar <*> ((++) <$> many (oneOf "-_" <|> alphaNumChar) <*> (:[]) <$> alphaNumChar <|> pure []) |
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| 13:31:42 | <int-e> | so [a-zA-Z0-9]([a-zA-Z0-9_-]*[a-zA-Z0-9])? |
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| 13:37:17 | <bramhaag> | Hmm, possible but imo not more readable than the others |
| 13:38:16 | <int-e> | it's just a tad shorter |
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| 14:21:45 | <sayola> | what do you think about using exceptions instead of ExceptT in a monad stack, when there is MonadIO on it already? |
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| 14:25:36 | <geekosaur> | exceptions are genrally a pain if they happen in pure code even if there is an IO "nearby"; ExceptT is much easier and more reliable |
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| 14:26:11 | <geekosaur> | if you are actually in IO when it happens, you can catch it fine, but even there I tend to prefer ExceptT |
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| 14:28:20 | <tomsmeding> | unlike in Java, nothing stops you from forgetting to handle an IO exception |
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| 14:41:41 | <[exa]> | probably depends on what you want to do with the exception though |
| 14:42:08 | <[exa]> | if the action is "apologize in human language and quit immediately", I'd say IO exceptions are perfectly okay |
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| 14:49:32 | <sayola> | i've read that since you already have to deal with exceptions when there is IO, you might as well stick to it. ExceptT would be redundant / only add to complexity. |
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| 14:53:40 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | i would like to talk about the concept of a "graded language" and whether or not it is impossible: |
| 14:54:35 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | the simplest example of grading (in the sense of gradation) in a language i can think of is "unsafe" in rust, where some part of the code deviates from normally enforced program invariants |
| 14:56:11 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | it seems like an "ideal language" would have the most strict collection of program invariants enforced throughout the codebase by default, and then on an as-needed basis different sections of code would selectively exempt themselves from those invariants |
| 14:56:42 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | for a variety of reasons,... perhaps the programmer doesn't have time to prove something, perhaps some kind of performance optimization is necessary, and soforth |
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| 14:57:57 | <hellwolf[m]> | what's the concrete problem and its example to illustrate its application, say in Haskell? |
| 14:58:34 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | for example it is "more strict" to enforce program totality by default, and then to have specific sections of code which are not total |
| 14:59:26 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | alternatively maybe it isn't possible to do this,... but i think even that would be interesting because it would show that you can't "unify" languages, |
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| 15:00:08 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | the overall thrust of what i am thinking is that it is silly how many programming **languages** there are, when really what we want to do is turn on and off program invariants |
| 15:00:55 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | hellwolf[m]: did i answer your question...? |
| 15:01:03 | <mauke> | you think that is what programming languages are about? |
| 15:01:20 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | maybe? or you can improve my understanding |
| 15:02:51 | <geekosaur> | lotsof languages are turing complete and therefore can do the same things. the question is what things they make easy |
| 15:03:23 | Rembane | waves the BF-flag enthusiastically |
| 15:03:50 | <hellwolf[m]> | segfaultfizzbuzz: not sure. "the next 700 programming languages" came to my mind though. |
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| 15:04:41 | <hellwolf[m]> | Agda says it's not turing complete, since there is "silly programs" you can't write in it, so to speak loosely. |
| 15:05:49 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | turing completeness defeats program invariants? |
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| 15:07:42 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | put another way, what is a programming language *aside from* invariants? |
| 15:08:22 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | there are "superficial" characteristics such as syntax and community, and then there are "less superficial" things such as library, but i would argue that these aren't the language itself |
| 15:08:23 | <hellwolf[m]> | https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/2026006/is-there-a-version-of-turing-completeness-for-total-programming-languages |
| 15:09:02 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | i would say don't pay *too* much attention to totality as that was one example of a program invariant |
| 15:09:10 | <hellwolf[m]> | not sure do you have a clear definition od "invariants" here, wouldn't be able to discuss without one. |
| 15:10:06 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | hellwolf[m]: a program invariant would be a guarantee about the program which is enforced either by the compiler or by the runtime, if there is a runtime |
| 15:10:34 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | "bounds checking" for example would be a way of enforcing the program invariant that an array access doesn't go out of bounds |
| 15:11:39 | <Rembane> | Could a horrible crash count as enforcement of an invariant? |
| 15:15:07 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | so long as the behavior is guaranteed and known, whatever that might be, then that would count as a program invariant |
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| 15:15:39 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | C as a language can be good (or better) for enforcing timing-related program invariants |
| 15:16:02 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | but otherwise does not enforce much at all about the program itself |
| 15:16:47 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | a programming language "exists" if one *must* make a choice between a pair of program invariants |
| 15:16:51 | <mauke> | C without a library is not turing complete, so that's fun |
| 15:18:12 | <Quinten[m]> | mauke: wait why, because you cannot allocate infinite amounts of memory? |
| 15:18:19 | <hellwolf[m]> | what's the simplest program to illustrate your point? |
| 15:18:32 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | hellwolf[m]: are you talking to me? |
| 15:18:44 | <mauke> | Quinten[m]: yes |
| 15:19:07 | <Quinten[m]> | because if it's about memory, C99 VLA's should be able to fix that and I think those are part of the language? |
| 15:19:29 | <hellwolf[m]> | yes, segfaultfizzbuzz: |
| 15:19:58 | <mauke> | Quinten[m]: no, array elements must be addressable and your addresses are bounded by sizeof (void *) |
| 15:22:08 | <Quinten[m]> | okay but ultimately every computer has such limits, C with the standard library enabled also has a limited address space and so does x86_64 assembly and Haskell is affected by that too |
| 15:22:52 | <mauke> | Haskell isn't built out of pointers |
| 15:23:19 | <mauke> | C with the standard library has FILE * and fseek. you can build an infinite tape out of that |
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| 15:25:08 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | hellwolf[m]: this is probably the simplest example: https://doc.rust-lang.org/rust-by-example/unsafe/asm.html |
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| 15:25:58 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | hellwolf[m]: this is probably the simplest example: https://doc.rust-lang.org/rust-by-example/unsafe/asm.html |
| 15:29:40 | <hellwolf[m]> | I guess that's what it takes to work with oily machines at times. It seems quite alright under "IO a" type. I guess I am missing what do we want to discuss here. |
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| 16:51:38 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | is there an intelligible/meaningful language which is more "minimal" in its enforcement of program invariants than lisp? |
| 16:51:45 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | haskell is "stronger" because it has a type system |
| 16:52:23 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | that is to say, lisp is just an AST and then operations on that AST, and i guess that's the "least" there is to a language? |
| 16:52:37 | <tomsmeding> | assembly? |
| 16:53:00 | <tomsmeding> | not a more minimal language, but surely more minimal in its _enforcement_ of anything |
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| 16:54:41 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | hmm, interesting point, although |
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| 16:55:30 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | i think (?) lisp can (probably?) be "extended" to include program invariants (eg a type system) whereas with assembly,... i don't think you can do that...? |
| 16:56:05 | <tomsmeding> | well "can" is a bit strong, but it wouldn't be practical |
| 16:56:35 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | wait you mean i can't add types to lisp? |
| 16:57:05 | <c_wraith> | You can add types to the fragment you write. You can't add types to everything you depend on. |
| 16:57:33 | <geekosaur> | didn't Knuth have a typed assembly language? |
| 16:57:33 | <c_wraith> | the best you can do is add types at the edges of your dependencies. |
| 16:57:35 | <tomsmeding> | segfaultfizzbuzz: no I was talking about assembly |
| 16:57:48 | <c_wraith> | geekosaur: there's also ATS |
| 16:57:51 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | tomsmeding: ah yeah, adding types to assembly would be awfully difficult |
| 16:57:52 | <tomsmeding> | what are you going to do with memory |
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| 16:58:23 | <geekosaur> | and back in the day there were limited "types" enforced via tag bits in memory |
| 16:58:35 | <tomsmeding> | that's dynamic though |
| 16:58:55 | <tomsmeding> | a dynamic type system is also a "type system", but generally when people talk about a "type system" they mean a static one :p |
| 16:59:09 | <tomsmeding> | "well-typed programs don't go wrong" |
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| 16:59:27 | <geekosaur> | yes. and the fact that no such processors exist these days indicates that they don't work very well in practice |
| 16:59:51 | <c_wraith> | hmm. CHERI kind of is a type system for pointers. |
| 16:59:56 | <c_wraith> | And some of those processors exist |
| 17:00:25 | <c_wraith> | I mean, I guess it is tagging. |
| 17:00:34 | <c_wraith> | But it does exist in the real world, at least |
| 17:00:54 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | the runtime or hardware implementation of the program invariants, from my mindset, is kind of an afterthought |
| 17:01:52 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | i was meaning that assembly itself is unfriendly to "extended annotations",... there isn't really an "assembly AST" i don't think,... although that is admittedly a superficial presentation of code consideration |
| 17:02:55 | <tomsmeding> | it's more that in assembly you only have a limited number of "local variables", so any interesting program is going to need to use memory |
| 17:03:18 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | ah yeah there is no convenient uh, symbol list? what would it be called |
| 17:03:19 | <tomsmeding> | C puts a static type system on memory accesses using pointers, but things become difficult when you don't even have enough local variables to store your pointers |
| 17:04:09 | <tomsmeding> | you can do it though (some statically-known "entry point" pointers, pointing to a struct with some known-type pointers from which your memory space spawns) |
| 17:04:37 | <tomsmeding> | but that would necessitate a very particular way of writing assembly, basically all existing code would not "type-check" with such a system |
| 17:07:03 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | i suppose another question would be the tendency of program invariants or their violation to propagate or not propagate throughout the codebase,... |
| 17:10:03 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | so people write science fiction fantasizing about flying cars and space travel and soforth, is there any science fiction written for programming languages? |
| 17:10:24 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | that is to say, for "programming language scifi" people would fantasize about how they would like to express programs |
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| 17:10:48 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | without concern for the difficulty of making a compiler/runtime meet that fantasy |
| 17:11:27 | <c_wraith> | segfaultfizzbuzz: Hah. I can think of one example... Tim Sweeney about 10 years ago. Funnily enough, SPJ is now working on actually implementing that language. |
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| 17:12:38 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | yeah so maybe this is a useful way of thinking. can you link? |
| 17:13:12 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | i mean link to the ten year old sweney fantasy |
| 17:13:17 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | i saw the spj project |
| 17:14:52 | <c_wraith> | https://groups.csail.mit.edu/cag/crg/papers/sweeney06games.pdf This is what I remember. Funny that it already looks like an SPJ presentation. |
| 17:15:34 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | oh wow unreal3 is only 250k lines? |
| 17:16:10 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | i'm surprised i expected 5M+ |
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| 17:17:06 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | lol "current GPUs are 16-wide to 48 wide!" |
| 17:18:39 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | good quote: "There is not a simple set of 'hotspots' to optimize!" |
| 17:19:40 | <sm> | segfaultfizzbuzz: how about the original functional programming paper |
| 17:21:03 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | another related question is: |
| 17:21:36 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | if the most "boring" application domain for programming is HFT, where everything is about optimization and systems considerations, what is the opposite of that domain |
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| 17:21:50 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | that is to say which domain(s) are the most demanding for the abstraction capabilities of the language |
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| 17:22:20 | sm | meant https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/359576.359579 |
| 17:23:02 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | sm: i have glanced at this paper but never read it, will try to read it now after i get through sweeney |
| 17:23:12 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | sweeney hasn't said anything earthshattering aside from the hotspots thing |
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| 17:26:01 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | sm: what are expressions and what are statements? |
| 17:27:17 | <sm> | also: some stuff at https://squeak.org/documentation > History maybe |
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| 17:27:47 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | sm: bits of history...? |
| 17:27:59 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | oh the historical papers ok |
| 17:28:17 | <sm> | yup, for programming. language sci-fi |
| 17:29:01 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | "90% of integer variables in unreal exist to index into arrays" |
| 17:29:50 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | 50% of loops in unreal engine are functional folds, but then he says 50% are functional comprehensions--what is a functional comprehension? |
| 17:30:04 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | is that a map? |
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| 17:30:40 | <geekosaur> | it generates values from a template |
| 17:30:42 | <sm> | (also something for lisp, something for apl/k..) |
| 17:30:59 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | geekosaur: a little more detail please? |
| 17:31:28 | <geekosaur> | look at list comprehensions in haskell or python |
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| 17:32:50 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | is a functional container the transformation of a value with a container type into another value with the same container type but a potentially distinct distinct inner types? |
| 17:32:58 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | *functional comprehension i mean |
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| 17:33:31 | <geekosaur> | given an input generator of some kind (typically a list of simple values like [0..], it generates more complex values. so in Haskell [ f x + x | x <- [0..] ], `f x + x` is the template and `x` the original list. but there might be multiple lists involved, etc. |
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| 17:34:39 | <geekosaur> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/Sd3Wq4Qy |
| 17:34:45 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | sweeny says: "accessing circularly entailed values causes thunk reentry (divergence) rather than just returning the wrong value" -- what is this? |
| 17:37:20 | <geekosaur> | sounds like a circular list (the last element links back to the start of the list) causes an infinite loop? |
| 17:37:31 | <hellwolf[m]> | my secret dream would be that one programming language, one intermediate representation, and many machines that interpret it in different ways. |
| 17:37:31 | <hellwolf[m]> | One of them can do elastic scaling such that it can detect "hot path" and putting more computing resources during its production cycle. |
| 17:37:54 | <geekosaur> | > repeat [1,2,3] -- this kind of list, but in a lazy language it doesn't necessarily diverge |
| 17:37:55 | <lambdabot> | [[1,2,3],[1,2,3],[1,2,3],[1,2,3],[1,2,3],[1,2,3],[1,2,3],[1,2,3],[1,2,3],[1,... |
| 17:38:07 | <geekosaur> | hm, not quite |
| 17:38:07 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | hellwolf[m]: agreed, plus you could reveal to the compiler which resources were available at some time and it would shape the program to fit available resources,... |
| 17:38:27 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | what is diverge? |
| 17:38:51 | <geekosaur> | fail to produce a result (infinite loop, exception, whatever) |
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| 17:40:31 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | but he says specifically "re-entry"...? |
| 17:41:01 | <geekosaur> | that's where it loops |
| 17:41:43 | <geekosaur> | > let l = [1,2,3] ++ l in l |
| 17:41:44 | <lambdabot> | [1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2... |
| 17:41:54 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | i mean, this sentence to me reads as "produces an infinite loop rather than an infinite loop" |
| 17:42:13 | <geekosaur> | in a lazy language it doesn't necessarily diverge, in a strict language it will always diverge |
| 17:42:38 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | because the lazy language doesn't starve other threads? |
| 17:42:45 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | and the other thread could generate a termination condition? |
| 17:42:57 | <geekosaur> | because the lazy language cna proceed if it produces any values before looping |
| 17:43:37 | <geekosaur> | and an outer computation can therefore "choose" to stop using values based on some outer condition, as lambdabot does whe n it has a sufficient line length for output |
| 17:43:48 | <hellwolf[m]> | hmm, would any program ever satisfy the property ofsum [1..] == -1/12 per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_%2B_2_%2B_3_%2B_4_%2B_%E2%8B%AF? |
| 17:44:02 | <geekosaur> | but with strict evaluation it will try to produce the whole list immediately, and fail because it's infinite |
| 17:44:03 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | hellwolf[m]: lol |
| 17:44:40 | hellwolf[m] | wonder why, in haskell it seems hanging :? |
| 17:44:56 | hellwolf[m] | * wonder why, in haskell it seems hanging sum [1..] :? |
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| 17:45:55 | <monochrom> | Because Haskell is not Wolfram Alpha. |
| 17:46:01 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | hellwolf[m]: i think if you can elaborate on what would be desirable behavior here more generally, this would be a great entry in the programming language scifi section of my library :-) |
| 17:46:13 | <APic> | Sadly |
| 17:46:52 | <monochrom> | So even [x | x <- [1..], x < 0] is divergence rather than the "intuitive" empty list. |
| 17:46:57 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | btw the "cutoff regularization" of the wikipedia entry he linked to is fascinating (and may actually be a step towards a language scifi feature) |
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| 17:47:40 | <hellwolf[m]> | we should totally implement a CutOffRegulatableList |
| 17:47:41 | <hellwolf[m]> | * we should totally implement a CutOffRegulatableList |
| 17:52:22 | <geekosaur> | gotta wonder just how far one could push a fancier simple-reflect |
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| 18:03:16 | <monochrom> | There is probably something about the combination of parametricity, sum being parametrically polymorphic, and the halting problem that requires sum [1..] to diverge. Note that Wolfram Alpha (and Mathematica) is free from parametricity, hell it's probably free from static typing altogether. |
| 18:04:20 | <monochrom> | This also implies that humanity will not settle for one single language that owns them all. |
| 18:05:03 | <darkling> | IIRC, the last time someone tried that, the tower fell down. :) |
| 18:05:14 | <monochrom> | hee hee |
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| 18:05:44 | <darkling> | Well, either that, or we ended up with Volapük. |
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| 18:08:01 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | tomsmeding: so i would say that assembly doesn't meet the "minimal programming language" criterion because the whole register thing is needlessly complex |
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| 18:10:57 | <slack1256> | What is the option to print arrow multiplicities on ghci? |
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| 18:17:04 | <geekosaur> | I don't see a specific option, beyond LinearTypes. I think we did determine the other day that :t doesn't show multiplicity in at least some cases |
| 18:17:37 | <geekosaur> | if you find a case where it should show multiplicity with LinearTypes enabled but it doesn't, consider filing a bug |
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| 18:19:06 | <slack1256> | Gotcha! |
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| 18:39:50 | <eldritchcookie[m> | how hard is it to make a graphical program in haskell? |
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| 18:44:29 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | eldritchcookie[m: https://hub.darcs.net/linearity/pplmonad |
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| 18:47:30 | <hellwolf[m]> | <eldritchcookie[m> "how hard is it to make a..." <- not at all, need only 10 lines, check out |
| 18:47:30 | <hellwolf[m]> | https://github.com/haskell-game/tiny-games-hs/tree/main/hackage/brickbreaker |
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| 18:48:31 | <hellwolf[m]> | If you mean GUI app, I guess other people can answer for you. I doubt it'd be difficult. |
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| 18:58:18 | <eldritchcookie[m> | cool i want to make a program similar to maptool, but i like the terminal so i would want to have my server controllable by commands |
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| 18:59:01 | <eldritchcookie[m> | how can i check to see if a server is up? |
| 18:59:46 | <c_wraith> | typically you just see if you can open the TCP connection. (unless you're not using a TCP-based protocol) |
| 19:02:24 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | this is potentially a silly question: some people have writtten uh, quantum programming languages,... please don't throw tomatoes here but was anything learned from that enterprise which can actually be used with normal programming languages...? |
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| 19:03:33 | <geekosaur> | they've discovered some new techniques for simulation of quantum computing. nothing much in the sense of languages, though:P as digital computing is significantly different from analog computing, so also quantum computing |
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| 19:06:01 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | i was thinking that the pure functional paradigm is best for reversible computations and imperative is best for non-reversible...? |
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| 19:06:54 | <geekosaur> | someone else would probably have to answer that in detail, but I'd expect them to handle different kinds of "reversible" |
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| 19:08:04 | <geekosaur> | consider that `const` isn't reversible unless you keep the original value around |
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| 19:10:23 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | that is to say, imperative programs look more like random noise if you could watch RAM |
| 19:10:30 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | whereas functional programs, you would notice patterns |
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| 23:00:36 | <jackdk> | "reversible"? only if every function you use has a retraction, I suppose? |
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| 23:04:41 | <EvanR> | functional programs can look like random noise just fine |
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All times are in UTC on 2023-02-19.