Logs on 2023-02-23 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:08:16 | <geekosaur> | zurihac? |
| 00:08:34 | <geekosaur> | oh, online |
| 00:10:23 | <jackdk> | I think a lot of meetups are still online, dunno about the conferences |
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| 00:23:04 | <carter> | so are TH [d| data decl |] quotes just really fragile about how they accept syntax or am i totally wrong? |
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| 00:23:52 | <hellwolf[m]> | who is also going to zurihac |
| 00:23:52 | <geekosaur> | I don't think they're supposed to be |
| 00:25:03 | <geekosaur> | zürich is very much out of the question for me, sadly |
| 00:25:45 | <carter> | i missed zurihac last year, though i was around the following week |
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| 00:51:19 | <carter> | geekosaur: like , couldn't do [d| \n ... data Foo = \n .... \n |] without a parser failure |
| 00:52:26 | <geekosaur> | I'd report that |
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| 01:59:27 | <maerwald[m]> | hellwolf: me |
| 02:03:23 | <ghostbuster> | why does :t "hello" print String, but :t 1 prints Num a => a |
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| 02:04:03 | <hpc> | numeric literals are polymorphic |
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| 02:04:09 | <hpc> | they can be any type that's "numbery" |
| 02:04:12 | <hpc> | > 1 :: Int |
| 02:04:14 | <lambdabot> | 1 |
| 02:04:15 | <hpc> | > 1 :: Double |
| 02:04:17 | <lambdabot> | 1.0 |
| 02:04:46 | <hpc> | "a :: x => y" means "a has type y, satisfying constraints x" |
| 02:04:46 | <ghostbuster> | :t 1.0 prints Fractional a => a |
| 02:04:47 | <lambdabot> | error: parse error on input ‘=>’ |
| 02:05:07 | <hpc> | or in this case, 1 is of type a, as long as "instance Num a" exists |
| 02:05:10 | <ghostbuster> | hmm what is a constraint |
| 02:05:17 | <hpc> | @src Num |
| 02:05:18 | <lambdabot> | class Num a where |
| 02:05:18 | <lambdabot> | (+), (-), (*) :: a -> a -> a |
| 02:05:18 | <lambdabot> | negate, abs, signum :: a -> a |
| 02:05:18 | <lambdabot> | fromInteger :: Integer -> a |
| 02:05:24 | <hpc> | ^ is the definition of Num |
| 02:05:41 | <hpc> | an easier example is Eq |
| 02:05:45 | <hpc> | :t (==) |
| 02:05:45 | <lambdabot> | Eq a => a -> a -> Bool |
| 02:05:48 | <hpc> | @src Eq |
| 02:05:48 | <lambdabot> | class Eq a where |
| 02:05:48 | <lambdabot> | (==), (/=) :: a -> a -> Bool |
| 02:05:57 | <hpc> | @let data Example = Small | Big |
| 02:05:58 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
| 02:06:31 | <hpc> | @let instance Eq Example where Small == Big = False; Big == Small = False; _ == _ = True |
| 02:06:32 | <lambdabot> | /sandbox/tmp/.L.hs:161:9: error: |
| 02:06:33 | <lambdabot> | Ambiguous occurrence ‘Small’ |
| 02:06:33 | <lambdabot> | It could refer to |
| 02:06:38 | <hpc> | ugh |
| 02:06:40 | <hpc> | @undefine |
| 02:06:40 | <lambdabot> | Undefined. |
| 02:06:44 | <hpc> | @let data Example = Small' | Big' |
| 02:06:45 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
| 02:06:54 | <hpc> | @let instance Eq Example where Small' == Big' = False; Big' == Small' = False; _ == _ = True |
| 02:06:55 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
| 02:07:14 | <ghostbuster> | my local ghci says "(==) :: Eq a => a -> a -> Bool" |
| 02:07:27 | <hpc> | yep |
| 02:07:44 | <hpc> | so basically, if you have a type that's an instance of Eq, that's saying "you can compare values of this type for equality" |
| 02:07:47 | <maerwald[m]> | <geekosaur> "zürich is very much out of the..." <- Why? |
| 02:07:49 | <hpc> | and in the instance, you define how to do that |
| 02:07:49 | <ghostbuster> | so that operator has type bool |
| 02:07:54 | <hpc> | > Big' == Big' |
| 02:07:56 | <lambdabot> | True |
| 02:08:01 | <hpc> | > Small' /= Big' |
| 02:08:03 | <lambdabot> | True |
| 02:08:17 | <hpc> | Num is similar, with some magic built in that lets you write numeric literals |
| 02:08:27 | <ghostbuster> | so a type can be an instance of more than one operator |
| 02:08:31 | <hpc> | fromInteger defines how to turn a literal into your desired type |
| 02:08:56 | <ghostbuster> | eg. Num can be negated, or have its absolute value taken, therefore Num is an instance of each of those operators? |
| 02:09:18 | <hpc> | values of type Int can be negated or added or multiplied |
| 02:09:38 | <ghostbuster> | is Int some sort of subclass of Num then? |
| 02:09:39 | <hpc> | so you can write instance Num Int where definitions-of-all-those-operations |
| 02:09:45 | <hpc> | Int is just a type |
| 02:10:11 | <ghostbuster> | what is the relationship between Int and Num? |
| 02:10:33 | <hpc> | an "instance Num Int" exists with definitions for all those operators |
| 02:10:48 | <hpc> | but there's also "instance Eq Int" and such, because integers can be equal to each other |
| 02:11:01 | <hpc> | there's also "instance Num Double", because sometimes you want decimal numbers |
| 02:11:10 | <hpc> | > 5 == 6 |
| 02:11:11 | <lambdabot> | False |
| 02:11:11 | <ghostbuster> | "instance Num Int" is a type? |
| 02:11:14 | <hpc> | > 5.0 + 1.5 |
| 02:11:15 | <lambdabot> | 6.5 |
| 02:11:24 | <hpc> | "instance Num Int" is just a thing you declare |
| 02:11:43 | <hpc> | (Num Int) itself is a Constraint, but that's kind-level stuff |
| 02:11:48 | <hpc> | :k Num |
| 02:11:49 | <lambdabot> | * -> Constraint |
| 02:11:51 | <hpc> | :k Int |
| 02:11:52 | <lambdabot> | * |
| 02:11:54 | <hpc> | :k [] |
| 02:11:55 | <lambdabot> | * -> * |
| 02:12:28 | <hpc> | (the parameter to [] is the type you want a list of) |
| 02:12:59 | <ghostbuster> | this smells like object oriented inheritance |
| 02:13:17 | <hpc> | it does, and it's just similar enough to really confuse people |
| 02:13:45 | <hpc> | it's easy to think, i'll make a parent class and some child classes |
| 02:14:03 | <hpc> | and then have some list of objects :: ParentClass a => [a] |
| 02:14:15 | <ghostbuster> | in OOP, instances and types are sort of fundamentally different things.. but it seems like maybe that's not the case here |
| 02:14:20 | <hpc> | but those values all have to be the same type, unlike in OOP where they can be any subclass |
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| 02:22:02 | <monochrom> | Perhaps remove the idea that every language uses the word "instance" for the same thing, or the word "class" for the same thing, or... |
| 02:22:17 | <hpc> | or return for the same thing :D |
| 02:22:33 | <monochrom> | Did you know that there are 4 languages that used the word "functor" 4 different ways, and they were completely unrelated! |
| 02:23:00 | <monochrom> | (Hint: Prolog, SML, Haskell, C++.) |
| 02:23:01 | <hpc> | what's the fourth? i know haskell, ML, and C++ |
| 02:23:08 | <hpc> | prolog? |
| 02:23:34 | <hpc> | oh, interesting |
| 02:23:39 | <hpc> | it's just the function name, sort of |
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| 02:23:45 | <hpc> | well, "function" |
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| 02:51:26 | <ghostbuster> | ok so instance was not what i thought it was |
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| 05:42:30 | <Inst> | how cancer is this lib? |
| 05:42:33 | <Inst> | https://github.com/liamzee/clearly/blob/master/src/Syntax/Clearly.hs |
| 05:43:11 | <Inst> | it's like TaylorFausak's "much-beloved" Flow, except with functions instead of operators |
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| 05:54:50 | <Axman6> | I don't see any problem with it |
| 05:55:22 | <Axman6> | other than I would expect something like timesDo to maybe be infixr |
| 05:56:09 | <Inst> | why infixr? |
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| 05:56:16 | <Inst> | it's just a toy at this stage, and thanks for review |
| 05:56:36 | <Inst> | yeah, it should be infixr |
| 05:58:10 | <Axman6> | actually I'm not sure it matters, I was wondering about how m `timesDo` \i -> n `timesDo` \j -> do ... would parse but I think it's fine with BlockArguments |
| 05:59:18 | <Inst> | it's baby's first hackage package, not sure how to search hackage for something equivalent |
| 06:00:49 | <Inst> | hoogle via typesig works |
| 06:01:10 | <Inst> | i dodged all the hoogle names in use, and no one else seems to have had the idea to convert most standard Haskell operators to function forms |
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| 07:58:42 | <cheater> | am i being reasonable here? https://github.com/jimenezrick/nng-haskell/issues/2#issuecomment-1441316247 |
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| 08:49:43 | <[exa]> | cheater: well mostly, but I'm usually responding to these with "patch or gtfo" :D |
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| 09:25:59 | <aforemny> | cheater: as far as i understand the issue, your operating systems ships a version of nng that is too old. IMO it is reasonable for a software project to expect a recent enough versions of dependencies, seeing that they are not supporting a particular operating system. i agree, it would be nice if that dependency was sufficiently specified, but unfortunately it is the case that external dependencies more often than not just |
| 09:25:59 | <aforemny> | aren't |
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| 09:27:35 | <cheater> | you're saying "recent enough" but who's to say what's recent enough? |
| 09:27:51 | <cheater> | nng exists in that older version, with full functionality, that should be "recent enough" |
| 09:28:19 | <cheater> | it's not like code that shipped out in 2021 suddenly stopped having features it had in the past |
| 09:28:39 | <aforemny> | cheater: haskell-nng maintainers should say what is recent enough. it is common to support the latest version or a specific version only |
| 09:29:00 | <cheater> | common for what? |
| 09:29:08 | <aforemny> | cheater: it really depends on how semantically versioned nng is, and how stable its api with respect to what is used in haskell-nng is |
| 09:29:20 | <aforemny> | cheater: common for open source software projects |
| 09:29:40 | <cheater> | firefox is open source and it will connect to 20 year old web servers |
| 09:29:55 | <cheater> | mysql is open source and mysql libraries will work with ancient versions of mysql |
| 09:30:12 | <cheater> | apache httpd is open source and even an ancient version will work with the latest version of curl |
| 09:30:14 | <aforemny> | cheater: you can always step up maintaining haskell-nng for nng version X that you desire :-) |
| 09:30:19 | <cheater> | no it's not "common" |
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| 09:31:21 | <cheater> | it's just the path of least resistance: expect everyone to live on git head with something breaking daily so you don't have to do 1% extra work (or however much it is to robustly support "ancient versions") |
| 09:31:40 | <cheater> | imo it's lazy |
| 09:33:15 | <Hecate> | cheater: I read the thread |
| 09:33:44 | <Hecate> | cheater: you should point out that 1.5.2 is the latest release of the nng project and that it's perfectly expected of people to install it |
| 09:34:17 | <Hecate> | cheater: tell the maintainer you'd like to volunteer a PR to the README that asks to use the latest commit of the nng git repo |
| 09:34:51 | <cheater> | idk, the maintainer's kind of defensive/hostile, i'm not even gonna go and code-lawyer this stuff |
| 09:35:01 | <cheater> | if he wants his project to be crappy he can keep it crappy. i don't have to use it |
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| 11:34:02 | <ncf> | there's got to be a middle ground between "supporting 20 year old versions" and "implicitly expecting people to use the latest git revision" :') |
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| 11:35:22 | <int-e> | We can have that soon (only 3 years to go): "the latest git revision is 20 years old" |
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| 11:40:42 | <merijn> | ncf: Yes, it's called "fuck you, pay me" ;) |
| 11:41:24 | <merijn> | I'm very much pro "supporting whatever the hell is convenient for you and only you and if anyone wants anything else: patches and/or money welcome" :p |
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| 11:50:29 | <maerwald[m]> | merijn: money motivates you? |
| 11:52:36 | <merijn> | maerwald[m]: Money makes me care about "not my problems" |
| 11:53:29 | <merijn> | As long as we live in a society where I have to work to have a living instead of "working on whatever I want", then yes, if you want me to care about a problem that does not affect me, it does |
| 11:54:17 | <merijn> | My open source code is purely "I wrote this because it tickled my fancy and I'm giving it out, because maybe someone can use it with absolutely zero warranty, maintenance or guarantees" |
| 11:54:47 | <merijn> | If you want maintenance and guarantees that are more predictable than "I might do it when I feel like it", then you better be paying me |
| 11:55:08 | <maerwald[m]> | Would be surprised that working for even half of the maintainers. Most probably have full time jobs and employment contracts not allowing them to accept such offers |
| 11:55:53 | <dminuoso_> | Well, you can always hire well typed or another such company to do anything for any package. |
| 11:56:14 | <dminuoso_> | Then you have a contractual relationship by which you can "demand" stuff happens. |
| 11:56:16 | <merijn> | maerwald[m]: The point is "if you're not paying the maintainer, you get to make 0 demands" |
| 11:56:27 | <merijn> | You can maybe ask nicely, or make a proposal, or whatever |
| 11:56:36 | <dminuoso_> | merijn: Hah, I recently stumbled over this one: https://forum.proxmox.com/threads/quick-help-how-to-disable-secureboot-vm.111210/#post-479276 |
| 11:56:44 | <dminuoso_> | How's that for demanding |
| 11:56:48 | <maerwald[m]> | dminuoso_: uhm |
| 11:57:09 | <merijn> | But entitlement wrt open source maintainers is always bad |
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| 11:57:23 | <maerwald[m]> | merijn: asking nicely has ever worked in open source? |
| 11:57:29 | <dminuoso_> | Sure. |
| 11:57:35 | <merijn> | maerwald[m]: Don't know, don't care |
| 11:57:44 | <merijn> | You're not paying, you get 0 rights or guarantees |
| 11:58:41 | <merijn> | maerwald[m]: In some organisations (some linux distros) payment may be in the form of "maintenance on other parts of the system" or some other (implicit) quid pro quo |
| 11:58:46 | <maerwald[m]> | I don't think money works in open source. Only two things do: becoming a comaintainer or forking. |
| 11:59:09 | <merijn> | But my hard uncompromising stance = no entitlement from non-contributin users |
| 11:59:16 | <dminuoso_> | Money works just fine in open source. |
| 11:59:24 | <dminuoso_> | You can hire companies to do work on open source. |
| 11:59:29 | <merijn> | maerwald[m]: I think quid pro quo in the form of being a comaintainer or other form of contribution is fine |
| 11:59:33 | <dminuoso_> | We have done it a few times. |
| 11:59:41 | <dminuoso_> | And arguably, this is how much of linux work gets done. |
| 11:59:42 | <maerwald[m]> | Nothing else has ever worked for me |
| 12:00:03 | <maerwald[m]> | My latest example is: brick windows support. |
| 12:00:19 | <dminuoso_> | Most of new linux kernel features arent done because people have too much spare time, its because someone is getting paid to do it. |
| 12:00:26 | <maerwald[m]> | Maintainer won't be persuaded by donations |
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| 12:00:30 | <merijn> | maerwald[m]: Open source in the idealistic sense only works if *everyone* contributes to the ecosystem. But there's a lot of "only using, never contributing" leeches in the world |
| 12:00:34 | <dminuoso_> | maerwald[m]: of course not, but you can hire someone to do it. |
| 12:00:35 | <maerwald[m]> | And patches are not enough either |
| 12:00:53 | <merijn> | maerwald[m]: What is the objection the maintainer has? |
| 12:00:57 | <maerwald[m]> | They want someone to maintain the new code |
| 12:00:59 | <maerwald[m]> | dminuoso_: who? |
| 12:01:04 | <merijn> | maerwald[m]: Understandable |
| 12:01:09 | <dminuoso_> | Any haskell consultancy company. |
| 12:01:11 | <maerwald[m]> | merijn: they don't have time |
| 12:01:26 | <merijn> | maerwald[m]: I wouldn't want to maintain code on a platform I don't use either |
| 12:01:33 | <maerwald[m]> | dminuoso_: and pay them to maintain it forever? |
| 12:01:37 | <maerwald[m]> | It's not a a one off job |
| 12:02:01 | <dminuoso_> | Well, if the feature is crucial to your business case, why would you be entitled that someone does exactly what you want for free instead? |
| 12:02:05 | <merijn> | maerwald[m]: ok, but how is any of this the problem/responsibility of the maintainer of brick? |
| 12:02:29 | <maerwald[m]> | And WT doesn't have windows experts I believe. But I could be wrong |
| 12:02:29 | <dminuoso_> | Besides, often if the work is done by someone else, most maintainers are happy to merge PRs. |
| 12:02:42 | <maerwald[m]> | merijn: huh? I simply said throwing money at it was a failure |
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| 12:03:13 | <dminuoso_> | And in the scope of maintainability, something like that can be provided via a cabal flag that you have to enable - and then its your problem to figure out whether its stable or not. |
| 12:03:18 | <dminuoso_> | But anyway |
| 12:03:24 | <merijn> | maerwald[m]: My stance isn't "money fixes it" |
| 12:03:39 | <Hecate> | ncf> there's got to be a middle ground between "supporting 20 year old versions" and "implicitly expecting people to use the latest git revision" :') // Just to be clear, the latest release is from 2021 |
| 12:03:55 | <maerwald[m]> | And patches will not be accepted, unless the patch author agrees to become a maintainer |
| 12:03:56 | <maerwald[m]> | So again, the only things that work are forking or becoming maintainer |
| 12:03:59 | <merijn> | maerwald[m]: My stance is "contribution of some form (money being the most general form) is absolute bare minimal table stakes to get someone to care about your problem" |
| 12:04:39 | <maerwald[m]> | merijn: I think that doesn't work at all in open source |
| 12:04:54 | <merijn> | maerwald[m]: I'm not giving a solution to your problem of "code doesn't do what I want", I'm advocating: Anyone who has any open source code would have better mental health if they stopped caring about anyone who isn't paying |
| 12:05:06 | <merijn> | maerwald[m]: You're interpreting what I'm saying as something other than I'm saying |
| 12:06:00 | <merijn> | I'm not giving you a recipe to solve problems. I'm saying no one who isn't paid should care about similar problems, which is not the same as "people who are paid *should* care" (I mean, probably they should if they care about payment continuing, but that's a personal decision) |
| 12:06:01 | <maerwald[m]> | merijn: I have people paying, but I don't know wtf for |
| 12:06:16 | <ncf> | right, "supporting the latest release" would be such a middle ground |
| 12:08:18 | <maerwald[m]> | merijn: I have a Github sponsor I've never heard of or met. Don't know what they want. The opencollective of my project has accumulated 0.5k, but I also got no idea what for. |
| 12:08:19 | <maerwald[m]> | Most people use such general financial contributions. They don't approach you with money when they write a ticket on your issue tracker. |
| 12:09:35 | <maerwald[m]> | And if they would, I'd have to reject to not be subject to moonlighting and getting fired |
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| 12:12:03 | <maerwald[m]> | Whether I work on something is a function of motivation and impact on end user experience |
| 12:12:03 | <maerwald[m]> | Don't care if they contribute patches |
| 12:12:04 | <maerwald[m]> | No one does |
| 12:16:41 | <Axman6> | maerwald[m]: whether money motivates you or not, when I get a job, can I give you/HLS $100AUD? I've happily given to GHC's development, and these days HLS is becoming as essential to writing Haskell |
| 12:18:52 | <maerwald[m]> | Axman6: HLS is a good choice |
| 12:18:57 | <Axman6> | The way I view doing that is not "Here's some money so you will keep doing stuff" but more 'here's some monewy to say thanks for doing stuff". I'd hate to support someone by placing a burden on them |
| 12:19:11 | <maerwald[m]> | WT has wizards who can work on specific things in HLS |
| 12:19:44 | <maerwald[m]> | And we're working on making the governing structure and decision making more transparent |
| 12:19:51 | <Axman6> | Who is working on HLS these days anyway? I assumed you were a big part based on being the reddit poster for new releases |
| 12:20:55 | <Axman6> | Great, that's good to hear, it's certainly becoming a part of the community infrastructure, so it'd be great to see if handled similarly to GHC, at least in terms of support for development |
| 12:21:16 | <maerwald[m]> | Axman6: I've done a lot on the CI side. Zubin, fendor, MPJ and Pepe are more familiar with the codebase |
| 12:25:19 | <fendor[m]> | and a number of plugin maintainers |
| 12:25:48 | <maerwald[m]> | https://github.com/haskell/haskell-language-server/issues/709 |
| 12:26:17 | <maerwald[m]> | I really want this to happen |
| 12:26:31 | <Axman6> | Well you're all champions in my book, thank you all |
| 12:26:32 | <maerwald[m]> | Afair this needs something on the GHC side first |
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| 12:27:02 | <stefan-_> | this would also be nice: https://github.com/haskell/haskell-language-server/issues/708 |
| 12:27:07 | <maerwald[m]> | So it's a job for WT |
| 12:27:18 | <maerwald[m]> | stefan-_: yep |
| 12:27:34 | <maerwald[m]> | There's a trick... vendor all your dependencies xD |
| 12:27:40 | <maerwald[m]> | Not that hard actually |
| 12:29:08 | <stefan-_> | maerwald[m], interesting, didnt know that |
| 12:29:52 | <maerwald[m]> | https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.4/cabal-project.html?highlight=optional-packages#cfg-field-optional-packages |
| 12:30:17 | <maerwald[m]> | You just need to `cabal unpack` them all into a subdir anr then add that line to cabal.project |
| 12:30:27 | <maerwald[m]> | Prolly doesn't work for boot libraries though |
| 12:31:11 | <maerwald[m]> | Or maybe it does, except for non-reinstallable ones |
| 12:31:18 | <maerwald[m]> | Like base |
| 12:33:03 | <fendor[m]> | maerwald: I dont think it required well-typed necessarily, it could in theory use the same mechanism ghci is using to implement the `:type-at` feature. |
| 12:35:04 | <maerwald> | let's dicuss this in next HLS meeting... I feel this has been neglected for too long |
| 12:35:23 | <maerwald> | it used to be possible with ghc-mod, I remember |
| 12:35:34 | <maerwald> | and it's kind of an awesome way to read through your code |
| 12:35:58 | <fendor[m]> | <maerwald[m]> "There's a trick... vendor all..." <- iirc, if you compile with .hie files and put them all into a specific location, you can enable jump to definition for third party deps |
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| 12:48:55 | <fendor[m]> | seemingly misremembering :( |
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| 13:05:49 | <Guest73> | Why is type inference for arbitrarily ranked type quantifiers undecidable? |
| 13:14:48 | <dminuoso_> | Guest73: See Wells, J. B. (1993). "Typability and type checking in the second-order lambda-calculus are equivalent and undecidable" |
| 13:15:08 | <c_wraith> | Guest73: it's ambiguous. There's no single most-general type available for a lot of definitions. |
| 13:16:49 | <dminuoso_> | Guest73: Relatedly, this may be an interesting read too https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/putting.pdf |
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| 13:26:27 | <Guest73> | Thanks much, I'll have a look at those. |
| 13:28:54 | <merijn> | maerwald[m]: It's fine if that's how you prioritise things, my problem is with the culture of entitlement around demanding issues are addressed. A lot of people (like me!) only work on their open source code in their free/spare time, and for me that time is reserved for things I find *fun* |
| 13:29:31 | <maerwald> | fun is getting high... not coding |
| 13:30:30 | <maerwald> | ah, now I know what I can use the donations for... |
| 13:30:38 | <geekosaur> | enh |
| 13:30:49 | <geekosaur> | a good coding session works for me |
| 13:31:05 | <geekosaur> | then again getting high doesn't; it just makes my anxiety hit the root |
| 13:31:08 | <geekosaur> | *roof |
| 13:31:10 | <merijn> | Coding can be fun, if it is for things I find fun, or work I find fun, etc. |
| 13:32:11 | <gqplox[m]> | hi guys, i was wondering if there was a formatter which will align stuff instead of reducing the whitespace |
| 13:32:22 | <gqplox[m]> | like i noticed in the ghci stuff the code is like this |
| 13:32:26 | <gqplox[m]> | null :: [a] -> Bool |
| 13:32:26 | <gqplox[m]> | null [] = True |
| 13:32:26 | <gqplox[m]> | null (_:_) = False |
| 13:32:59 | <geekosaur> | not that I've seen. (also, please use a pastebin. irc can mangle it, especially if someone has a proportional font) |
| 13:33:41 | <gqplox[m]> | alright |
| 13:33:42 | <maerwald> | merijn: For me it's stress and pain. I enjoy looking at good work, but the process is just a zone. |
| 13:33:54 | <maerwald> | Where I'm not exposed to my brain, so to speak. |
| 13:34:01 | <gqplox[m]> | oh yeah i forgot irc might not use monospace font, sorry |
| 13:34:07 | monochrom | uses a proportional font for IRC :) |
| 13:34:27 | <geekosaur> | even matrix dsoesn't unless you use the code markup, which you didn't |
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| 13:34:39 | <maerwald> | merijn: but then again, there are other ways to zone out, but those need funding xD |
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| 13:37:10 | <geekosaur> | gqplox[m], someone brought up emacs align-regexp in #haskell:matrix.org a couple days ago |
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| 13:37:22 | <gqplox[m]> | i did use code markup |
| 13:37:40 | <Profpatsch> | Do we have a json pretty printing function somewhere that can colorize in the terminal? |
| 13:37:47 | <gqplox[m]> | wait code markup is markdown codeblock right? |
| 13:38:05 | <geekosaur> | hm. irc normally shows a control character in that case, and it would all be one message (and the bridge would pastebin it) |
| 13:38:32 | <monochrom> | Perhaps ` does and ``` doesn't. |
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| 13:38:48 | <geekosaur> | both are supposed to work, at least matrix-side |
| 13:39:02 | <gqplox[m]> | hmm this is how it looks on my screen, https://imgur.com/a/7TVO8n7 |
| 13:39:06 | <Profpatsch> | hm maybe https://hackage.haskell.org/package/aeson-pretty-0.8.9/docs/Data-Aeson-Encode-Pretty.html it doesn’t do colors, but oh well |
| 13:39:15 | <geekosaur> | code blocks with `` ``` `` normally get pastebinned because they end up more than one line irc-side |
| 13:39:25 | <gqplox[m]> | but ill refrain from doing that and use pastebin in the future |
| 13:40:07 | <gqplox[m]> | ah unfortunately i use vim not emacs but thank you |
| 13:40:24 | <geekosaur> | https://imgur.com/iK3mpmo.png here |
| 13:40:51 | <geekosaur> | hm, but nheko shows it as a code block |
| 13:41:09 | <geekosaur> | wonder if the bridge is broken again |
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| 14:04:23 | <stefan-_> | Profpatsch, not sure if that is applicable for your problem, but there is [jq](https://stedolan.github.io/jq/): `cat foo.json | jq` |
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| 14:13:08 | <ii8> | Hello, could somebody explain to me what this error means? https://paste.tomsmeding.com/6TOrECmN |
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| 14:13:54 | <ii8> | Looking at the source code I can't even find anything called zlib |
| 14:13:59 | <merijn> | ii8: Something is trying to load zlib |
| 14:14:16 | <merijn> | ii8: zlib is a C library for zip compression |
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| 14:16:22 | <Guest11> | I just posted this question on SO, but maybe the Libera chat is more appropriate. I have heard you should avoid foldr, but I'm having a hard time figuring out how I can replace foldl with it here. Does anyone have any tips? For reference, https://stackoverflow.com/questions/75545307/how-do-i-convert-this-foldl-to-foldr-for-laziness-sake |
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| 14:16:40 | <Guest11> | oops, avoid foldl * |
| 14:20:05 | <ii8> | merijn: yes, I am aware of that library, I'm not sure what to do with that information though, it looks like it ships it's own (really old?) version of zlib, but I can't see where or why or how. |
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| 14:22:53 | <ii8> | nvm, that version number probably refers to a haskell package version, not the version of the C library |
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| 14:25:08 | <int-e> | :t \f xs -> reverse (foldl (\ys x -> f ys x : ys) [] xs) |
| 14:25:10 | <lambdabot> | Foldable t1 => ([a] -> t2 -> a) -> t1 t2 -> [a] |
| 14:25:23 | <int-e> | :t \f xs -> foldr (\x xs ys -> let z = f ys x in z : xs (z : ys)) id xs [] |
| 14:25:24 | <lambdabot> | Foldable t1 => ([a] -> t2 -> a) -> t1 t2 -> [a] |
| 14:26:01 | <int-e> | Guest11: I think it would work like that, but I'd rather write it with explicit recursion instead. |
| 14:27:13 | <Guest11> | Oh you would? I might sound stupid, but according to this wikisite (https://wiki.haskell.org/List_traversal) a haskell "expert" would use foldr instead of manual recursion (which actually is why I changed from manual to foldl in the first place). |
| 14:28:12 | <eldritchcookie[m> | how do i test monadic functions? |
| 14:28:23 | <int-e> | the foldr might fuse but with all the computations going on fusion will not buy you very much |
| 14:28:51 | <Guest11> | Interesting point! |
| 14:29:40 | <int-e> | And the code will be more readable with explicit recursion, I think. |
| 14:30:58 | <int-e> | But if you want to go with foldr... the idea is that you can add an accumulator to the `foldr` computation (to keep track of the vectors produced so far) by making it a third argument to the worker function that is the first argument of foldr. |
| 14:32:18 | <int-e> | This is also what you do to get foldl from foldr. |
| 14:32:18 | <Guest11> | Yeah I just noticed your first argument to foldr is a function with three parameters. I did not know that you could add an accumulator like that? |
| 14:32:33 | <Guest11> | That's reaally cool. |
| 14:33:36 | <int-e> | :t foldr |
| 14:33:37 | <lambdabot> | Foldable t => (a -> b -> b) -> b -> t a -> b |
| 14:33:59 | <int-e> | it replaces `b` by a function `acc -> b` |
| 14:34:24 | <Guest11> | Oh, I see what you mean! |
| 14:34:32 | <int-e> | Oh I messed this up actually |
| 14:34:40 | <int-e> | the `id` should be `const []` |
| 14:35:00 | <int-e> | or `(const [])` |
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| 14:35:43 | <int-e> | (when we reach the end of the input list, the result has already been produced; the accumulator needs to be discarded) |
| 14:36:43 | <Guest11> | Alright, I'm starting to understand what needs to be done to use `foldr`, but at this point, it does seem like there are more ergonomic/readable options like you mentioned at the very beginning |
| 14:37:04 | <rogerstonks> | Hello. I have a question about gsoc (google summer of code). Where I can ask such questions? |
| 14:37:18 | <Guest11> | I'll try to implement it using `foldr` though, seems like very good practice |
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| 14:42:10 | <eldritchcookie[m> | if it is related to haskell i don't think there would be any problem asking here |
| 14:44:33 | <rogerstonks> | oh ok. I want to do one of the projects over 3 months. Can I do a 350 hour project or can I only do 175 hour ones? |
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| 14:47:52 | <merijn> | rogerstonks: You probably wanna email to ask the people in charge |
| 14:48:24 | <rogerstonks> | ok thanks |
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| 14:53:13 | <eldritchcookie[m> | i made a library now i want to test it however most of the functions are in a monad how can i test monadic values/functions with either quickcheck or hedgehog? |
| 14:57:19 | <geekosaur[m]> | QuickCheck has a module for that IIRC |
| 14:59:03 | <geekosaur[m]> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/QuickCheck-2.14.2/docs/Test-QuickCheck-Monadic.html |
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| 14:59:28 | <Profpatsch> | stefan-_: yeah, that’s my fallback for if the pure haskell thing is not fast enough :) |
| 14:59:32 | <Profpatsch> | or nice enough |
| 14:59:39 | <Profpatsch> | ofc shelling out jq has like 5ms overhead |
| 14:59:43 | <Profpatsch> | so not good for a tight loop |
| 14:59:59 | <gensyst> | lol :: forall n. (KnownNat n) => IO Int Is there no way to somehow get n to be *known to be even* at compile-time? |
| 15:00:04 | <gensyst> | (or odd) |
| 15:00:33 | <gensyst> | (or positive) |
| 15:01:23 | <geekosaur[m]> | There's some plugins for that? |
| 15:02:47 | <geekosaur[m]> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-typelits-natnormalise might help |
| 15:04:11 | <int-e> | :t \f xs -> map head . tail . scanr (\x ys -> f ys x : ys) [] xs |
| 15:04:12 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 15:04:12 | <lambdabot> | • Couldn't match expected type ‘a1 -> [[b]]’ |
| 15:04:12 | <lambdabot> | with actual type ‘[[a]]’ |
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| 15:05:31 | <int-e> | :t \f -> map head . tail . scanr (\x ys -> f ys x : ys) [] |
| 15:05:32 | <lambdabot> | ([b] -> t -> b) -> [t] -> [b] |
| 15:07:04 | <int-e> | Guest11: ^ another idea extracting the result from the intermediate accumulators |
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| 15:20:59 | <gensyst> | geekosaur[m], https://dpaste.com/HNRL7BDUZ |
| 15:21:30 | <gensyst> | Any ideas why that doesn't compile? If n-1 >= 0 then n should be known to be n >= 1 and so head should work right? |
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| 15:21:38 | <gensyst> | but it can't deduce it correctly |
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| 15:24:14 | <geekosaur[m]> | Nope, sorry |
| 15:24:40 | <geekosaur[m]> | I know a little about type level but not much |
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| 15:25:18 | <gensyst> | geekosaur[m], ok np |
| 15:25:22 | <gensyst> | geekosaur[m], https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-typelits-knownnat-0.1/docs/GHC-TypeLits-KnownNat-Solver.html |
| 15:25:36 | <gensyst> | looks like it's a documented limitation: "it cannot derive a KnownNat (n-1) constraint..." |
| 15:26:24 | <gensyst> | A bit of a bummer because now I have to pass in @0 to functions even if it's actually using @(0+1) somewhere inside of the function. |
| 15:26:40 | <gensyst> | so I'm passing @0 sometimes and @1 other times (where the internals of the function don't require positive) |
| 15:26:42 | <gensyst> | a bit PITA |
| 15:28:33 | <geekosaur[m]> | Type level in Haskell is still very limited |
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| 16:59:14 | <eldritchcookie[m> | how many tests does quickcheck do normally? |
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| 17:05:03 | <c_wraith> | I believe that the default is 100 cases per test |
| 17:05:27 | <c_wraith> | It used to (I haven't used it in a while) tell you how many total cases it ran |
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| 17:07:43 | <int-e> | @check \n -> (n `mod` 100 == 0) ==> True |
| 17:07:45 | <lambdabot> | *** Gave up! Passed only 34 tests. |
| 17:08:03 | <eldritchcookie[m> | does it run tests in parallel if i use tasty discover |
| 17:08:04 | <eldritchcookie[m> | ? |
| 17:09:12 | <int-e> | (QuickCheck has two bounds, one for how many tests results it wants (100 is the default) and another for how many input it tries for satisfying preconditions like that) |
| 17:09:48 | <eldritchcookie[m> | basically when i run my monadic test if the number is high it chokes but 10 is basically instantaneous like 100 should be fast |
| 17:10:53 | <eldritchcookie[m> | it does io so maybe my OS gets crazy with the number of simultaneous connections |
| 17:10:55 | <Joao003> | hey i just want to know the topic here |
| 17:11:35 | <eldritchcookie[m> | sure ask away |
| 17:12:15 | <mauke> | uh, it's in the topic |
| 17:12:22 | <mauke> | literally, /topic |
| 17:12:26 | <Joao003> | lol |
| 17:13:01 | <Joao003> | so i can ask anything here? |
| 17:13:32 | <eldritchcookie[m> | about haskell probably |
| 17:13:37 | <mauke> | is it related to haskell? |
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| 17:17:39 | <Joao003> | how do i make a simple parser |
| 17:17:59 | <eldritchcookie[m> | Megaparsec has a nice tutorial |
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| 17:18:38 | <Joao003> | link? |
| 17:18:47 | <eldritchcookie[m> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/megaparsec-9.3.0#tutorials |
| 17:18:47 | <eldritchcookie[m> | https://markkarpov.com/tutorial/megaparsec.html |
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| 17:19:38 | <eldritchcookie[m> | i have a quickcheck test that does IO, when i run with 10 it runs fine but it hangs forever with 100 how can i limit the number of simultaneous test to a reasonable level? |
| 17:20:16 | <eldritchcookie[m> | i am using tasty discover |
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| 17:21:41 | <davean> | eldritchcookie[m: can you pastebin some code? Its unlikely simultaneousness is the problem. |
| 17:23:08 | <eldritchcookie[m> | sure which site do i use? |
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| 17:23:35 | <eldritchcookie[m> | https://play-haskell.tomsmeding.com/saved/uSnyxS3P |
| 17:25:11 | <eldritchcookie[m> | https://play-haskell.tomsmeding.com/saved/5aUCQtNz |
| 17:25:24 | <eldritchcookie[m> | if i run with more than 20 tests it sometimes hang |
| 17:28:48 | <eldritchcookie[m> | and more than 30 it always hangs |
| 17:29:02 | <eldritchcookie[m> | do you prefer my link to the github repo? |
| 17:29:13 | <eldritchcookie[m> | https://github.com/dark-ether/socket-effectful.git |
| 17:30:54 | <eldritchcookie[m> | when i ran strace it spewed EAGAIN errors that are catched automatically |
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| 17:32:34 | <eldritchcookie[m> | now it is Spewing EInterrupted |
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| 17:33:25 | <eldritchcookie[m> | hello? |
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| 18:23:23 | <Joao003> | how do i do this |
| 18:23:42 | <eldritchcookie[m> | do what? |
| 18:23:55 | <Joao003> | `f 3` -> `\x -> (\y -> (\z -> whatever))` |
| 18:24:02 | <Joao003> | basically that |
| 18:24:16 | <eldritchcookie[m> | i think i need more context |
| 18:25:00 | <Joao003> | basically i have a function which takes a number and it returns a function which takes that many arguments |
| 18:25:07 | <int-e> | In Haskell, the starting question will be "what's the type of f?" |
| 18:25:36 | <eldritchcookie[m> | yeah does it have 4 -> in the type? |
| 18:26:28 | <int-e> | Relatedly, how would you use `f`? |
| 18:27:05 | <Joao003> | if a function can take variable arguments for example |
| 18:27:13 | <eldritchcookie[m> | now i get it you would need a typeclass |
| 18:27:18 | <Joao003> | ok |
| 18:27:56 | <eldritchcookie[m> | you want a variadic function, the only way to do that is have a function of type _ -> myTypeClass r |
| 18:28:11 | <eldritchcookie[m> | and then you return either a function or a value |
| 18:28:19 | <Joao003> | how do implement the typeclass |
| 18:29:06 | <eldritchcookie[m> | https://stackoverflow.com/questions/3467279/how-to-create-a-polyvariadic-haskell-function |
| 18:29:32 | <eldritchcookie[m> | https://okmij.org/ftp/Haskell/polyvariadic.html#polyvar-fn |
| 18:29:43 | <int-e> | I think the chance that you actually want any of this is very low. |
| 18:29:58 | <eldritchcookie[m> | yeah i agree |
| 18:30:22 | <eldritchcookie[m> | why not have the function take alist of the type you want to accept that is significantly easier |
| 18:30:51 | <Joao003> | mhmhmh |
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| 18:41:37 | <Joao003> | oh |
| 18:41:43 | <Joao003> | kthxbai |
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| 20:31:55 | <eldritchcookie[m> | anyone online? |
| 20:32:32 | <geekosaur> | Any {getAny = True} |
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| 20:34:57 | <anatta> | I'm always online |
| 20:35:02 | <anatta> | except when I'm not online |
| 20:35:07 | <anatta> | then I'm not online |
| 20:37:01 | <eldritchcookie[m> | cool, does quickcheck do anything weird when having monadic tests? |
| 20:37:14 | <captnemo> | anatta: same |
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| 20:43:51 | <geekosaur> | online as much as possible but not always at the keyboard 🙂 |
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| 21:08:28 | <anatta> | eldritchcookie[m: I'm not very good at using quickcheck, but isn't there a quickcheck.monadic or something? |
| 21:09:31 | <eldritchcookie[m> | basically i was testing my wrapper around the socket library and when i ran it with more than 25 successes required it just hung forever, this doesn't happenif i compile with -threaded |
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| 21:10:55 | <eldritchcookie[m> | i tested only the socket library alone and it seems to work even with a action that is basically the same as my quickcheck test |
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| 21:21:19 | <eldritchcookie[m> | ok with profiling i see that it hangs on the hSupportANSI family of functions |
| 21:21:25 | <eldritchcookie[m> | that make no sense |
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| 21:52:51 | <ddellacosta> | eldritchcookie[m: I think e.g. HUnit and HSpec both check assertions in what is essentially the IO monad so I think it's more about what you're trying to do. I'll add, testing anything that involves threading means you then have to concern yourself with how tests are run--I'm thinking of tasty in particular which will automatically try to parallelize tests if threading is on so you have to ensure |
| 21:52:53 | <ddellacosta> | that your code-under-test can be safely run that way |
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| 21:56:50 | <ddellacosta> | yeah I guess quickcheck is doing something similar wrt running tests in IO |
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| 21:58:49 | <eldritchcookie[m> | i am using tasty, could it be trying to run too many tests at once and then running into a system limit or something similar? |
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| 22:05:57 | <ddellacosta> | I'd be surprised if it where that, I think the number of threads is automatically pegged at cpus or something like that |
| 22:06:25 | <[Leary]> | eldritchcookie[m: Just compile with -threaded. The single-threaded runtime has known issues with hangs and deadlocks in concurrency---see this GHC proposal <https://github.com/ulysses4ever/ghc-proposals/blob/master/proposals/0000-threaded-by-default.rst> for some detail on that. |
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| 22:12:09 | <geekosaur> | I pointed that out over matrix-side |
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| 22:12:39 | <geekosaur> | it works fine with -threaded, apparently, but is freezing with the single threaded runtime |
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| 22:24:04 | <geekosaur> | and seriously, if that happens the rts is probably the first place to look; this should be invisible to programs aside from latency |
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| 23:36:42 | <ph88> | is it possible / how can this be used with generic deriving via ? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hasbolt-extras-0.0.2.0/docs/Database-Bolt-Extras-Generic.html |
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| 23:52:02 | <jackdk> | probably `deriving IsValue via BoltGeneric` |
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