Logs on 2023-02-27 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 03:40:16 | <maerwald[m]> | davean: are you also implying that the applicative constraint on monad should be removed? |
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| 03:40:35 | <maerwald[m]> | I find it bewildering, but I didn't study CT |
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| 03:44:47 | <jackdk> | I imagine it's more like "for certain monads, mapM may be more efficient than traverse", but I am eager to learn the specific examples. |
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| 04:27:58 | <danso> | Monad comes with certain laws that Applicative does not |
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| 04:28:43 | <Inst> | question, is it possible to get Haskell IO code to be more pleasant than Python IO code (considering that in most languages, they're always in IO monad) |
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| 04:29:53 | <danso> | Inst, without providing any criteria that's an entirely subjective question |
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| 04:32:38 | <jackdk> | you could write a quasiquoter that turns python into eqivalent haskell so haskell is at least as pleasant to use |
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| 04:33:41 | <jackdk> | but seriously, between (>>=), traverse, kliesli composition, and functions working just as well as any built-in control structures, I find Haskell one of the most pleasant imperative languages to write |
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| 04:52:33 | <Inst> | i'm wondering if i've failed somehow, like, i don't get Haskell enough to make Haskell pleasant |
| 04:52:46 | <Inst> | I have code that's longer than Python, in almost all cases |
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| 04:54:18 | <slack1256> | I have code that is longer that the python equivalent but feels more pleasant to the eye. I wonder if this is how lispers feel. |
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| 08:38:44 | <davean> | maerwald[m]: Why would you ever removed the applicative constraint? |
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| 09:09:56 | <maerwald> | davean: it's not part of the Haskell standard |
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| 10:40:29 | <dminuoso_> | jackdk: It was brought up on the mailing list a few years ago to remove mapM, but as with many things it was left forgotten very rapidly after. |
| 10:41:04 | <dminuoso_> | There aren't really any examples of a more efficient mapM in the wild. |
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| 10:44:23 | <[exa]> | imo mapM is pretty good for educative purposes, it's the easiest way to grasp the whateverM "lifted" functions |
| 10:45:00 | <Inst> | does anyone use monomer here? |
| 10:45:05 | <dminuoso_> | Sure, but `traverse` does that too [exa] |
| 10:45:26 | <dminuoso_> | From a pedagogical level its probably even more confusing that both mapM and traverse even exist. |
| 10:45:54 | <dminuoso_> | Especially since the historical reason for the split has never found any real life usage that I have found |
| 10:46:12 | <[exa]> | dminuoso_: that's solved literally by saying "...anyway cool people call it traverse" |
| 10:46:33 | <Inst> | mapM isn't traverse, no? |
| 10:46:37 | <Inst> | mapM has monad constraint? |
| 10:46:41 | <[exa]> | yep |
| 10:46:47 | <dminuoso_> | [exa]: Okay, so when teaching addition to kids in primary school, do you also include the addendum "cool kids call this a semigroup" |
| 10:47:03 | <dminuoso_> | or would you agree that this is just an entirely useless remark that can, at best, only serve to confuse students? |
| 10:48:54 | <[exa]> | how are alternative names confusing? |
| 10:49:08 | <dminuoso_> | For starters they have different type signatures. |
| 10:49:36 | <dminuoso_> | Even the documentation in base could be read as if they do different things. |
| 10:49:44 | <dminuoso_> | mapM maps to *monadic* actions, traverse maps to (non-monadic) actions. |
| 10:50:56 | <dminuoso_> | Behaviorally they do the same, except in the (warning, irony incoming) extremely common case that you have a specially implemented mapM that is slightly faster on monads, and you're working with a type that does not have a Monad instance, then yeah you cant use mapM |
| 10:50:59 | <[exa]> | like, the beginners usually know `map` and extending that to monadic things as `mapM` is the easiest solution that they can converge into. Having to memorize traverse name ("or was is transve..rsomehting?") IMO just removes 1 potentially helpful step there |
| 10:51:13 | <Inst> | (just teach for instead) |
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| 10:51:21 | <dminuoso_> | Counter argument, now you have map, mapM and fmap. |
| 10:51:26 | <dminuoso_> | Which one does what? |
| 10:51:49 | <dminuoso_> | Memorizing the particular spelling of a name is an editor integration problem. |
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| 10:52:17 | <Inst> | but i can see how mapM is easier to pick-up, i.e, a version of map specialized to (a -> m a) |
| 10:52:27 | <Inst> | which pushes the m a out to above the traversable |
| 10:52:36 | <[exa]> | mapM matches the general whateverM pattern, fmap can be decoded as a map for "f"something and they may or may not recall it if they heard about functors |
| 10:52:36 | <dminuoso_> | If we *really* want to talk about simple and recognizable names |
| 10:52:45 | <dminuoso_> | then `for` and `for_` win this argument I think |
| 10:52:53 | <Inst> | well, replicateM is cancer ;) |
| 10:52:55 | <[exa]> | true |
| 10:52:55 | <dminuoso_> | Because they just generalize loops. |
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| 10:53:32 | <dminuoso_> | [exa]: regarding your patter, sure Im not saying its something you cant create a mental model around it |
| 10:54:01 | <dminuoso_> | but for someone who is starting with haskell, I dont think `whateverM` as "the monadic version" is really helpful, given that haskell beginners tend to be utterly confused about everything that has `monad` in it |
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| 10:55:05 | <dminuoso_> | A far more treacherous confusion that tripped me up over several years, was not finding `for_/traverse_` in Data.Traversable. :p |
| 10:55:23 | <[exa]> | yeah certainly not saying this is useful for the "final" outcome, but there have to be various intermediate mental models of the situation and mapM really helps there. "I want to do map but my thing here is IO monad, what do?" fires the combination easily |
| 10:55:24 | <dminuoso_> | Something I probably should have turned into a simple proposal to just re-export it from that module at the time, but Ive learned around it |
| 10:56:03 | <[exa]> | ah yes the traverse_ missing from prelude is just...annoying :D |
| 10:57:09 | <Inst> | ummm, isn't prelude just annoying anyways? |
| 10:57:28 | <[exa]> | Inst: try without |
| 10:57:42 | <Inst> | {-# LANGUAGE NoImplicitPrelude #-} |
| 10:58:08 | <Inst> | import RIO |
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| 10:58:31 | <Inst> | oh wow, Protolude is still being maintained, I thought it was dead |
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| 10:59:28 | <[exa]> | Inst: ok we have another prelude that is annoying to another set of humans :D |
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| 11:00:05 | <Inst> | a big bright spot of Haskell 2020 or 2025 or 2030, is just to get impetus to have people in charge update the bleeding prelude |
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| 11:02:03 | <[exa]> | Inst: that will break everyone's nice software though |
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| 11:07:17 | <jackdk> | the real alternative prelude is Control.Lens |
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| 11:11:16 | <dminuoso_> | [exa]: Its not as much about missing from prelude, as about not being re-exported in Data.Traversable |
| 11:11:29 | <dminuoso_> | It always struck me as odd that `traverse_` was not in Data.Traversable, given its name. |
| 11:12:53 | <Inst> | on the other hand, it only requires a foldable constraint |
| 11:14:00 | <[exa]> | that's kinda longtime software development problem: correct /= handy |
| 11:14:11 | <[exa]> | jackdk: +1 |
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| 11:18:55 | <dminuoso_> | Speaking of missing things, I feel like Witherable should be part of base. |
| 11:19:09 | <dminuoso_> | I use `wither` so frequently.. |
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| 11:22:25 | <jackdk> | I used to be pro-things-in-base, but it seems really hard to make fundamental fixes once they get in. Agreed that `Witherable` is a cool class |
| 11:22:40 | <jackdk> | I also have a soft spot for package `semialign` |
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| 11:42:40 | <Inst> | if someone uses monomer, i'm trying to figure out if this is intended behavior |
| 11:42:52 | <Inst> | i can install the executables, but they don't come packaged with the assets by default |
| 11:45:33 | Lycurgus | wonders is it the holy grail of hs GUI? |
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| 12:16:32 | <merijn> | jackdk: Stuff in base seems great, until you realise any changes are tied to the compiler :p |
| 12:16:45 | <jackdk> | also that yes |
| 12:17:18 | <merijn> | Of course in theory we could separate base from GHC, but then it's "just another library" which doesn't seem any improvement over the status quo :p |
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| 12:30:17 | <maerwald> | jackdk: yes, because "fixes" break shit and incur real economic cost to users |
| 12:30:33 | <maerwald> | base shouldn't be a petri dish |
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| 12:34:01 | <raehik> | I can pass `Addr#`s to FFI calls thanks to UnliftedFFITypes, but I can't get back an `IO Addr#` because IO's type must be lifted. In my own code, I can fix that by manually unboxing IO. Can I do that in FFI calls as well...? |
| 12:34:32 | <merijn> | raehik: What's wrong with `Ptr`? |
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| 12:35:07 | <raehik> | merijn: I'm finding in a serialization lib that Ptr's boxing slows things down. where there's not much to do other than copy bytes around it adds a surprising hit |
| 12:35:28 | <merijn> | That's...surprising |
| 12:36:14 | <merijn> | I have some pretty strict Ptr shenanigans to Storable data code and that doesn't seem to have any meaningful slowdown |
| 12:36:53 | <raehik> | I did optimize other things at the same time. I haven't properly confirmed if they gave me all the performance |
| 12:37:08 | <merijn> | raehik: Looking at the source Ptr directly has an Addr# field so that should already be unboxed and strict |
| 12:37:50 | <raehik> | huh? is that how it works? I saw `data Ptr` and understood that there was boxing present (I have never properly researched this) |
| 12:38:10 | <merijn> | So while I can't say it *never* happens, I'm fairly skeptical of GHC generating statistically significant overhead for passing that to FFI |
| 12:38:52 | <merijn> | raehik: Pretty sure (although a bit rusty) that unlifted # values are always just directly embedded into the constructor without additional indirection |
| 12:39:27 | <raehik> | hm! how is UnliftedNewtypes different then? |
| 12:39:40 | <merijn> | So Ptr is not a struct with a pointer to an Addr#, it's just a struct with Addr# embedded directly |
| 12:40:51 | <raehik> | hmmmm. so it doesn't add any lookups |
| 12:40:54 | <merijn> | raehik: Ptr is pretty equivalent to Int (1 constructor, machine word value) and the primitive type docs for GHC say: "he representation of a Haskell Int, for example, is a two-word heap object. An unboxed type, however, is represented by the value itself, no pointers or heap allocation are involved." |
| 12:41:32 | <merijn> | raehik: UnliftedNewtypes is subtly different |
| 12:42:27 | <raehik> | before I get too far into it then, does unboxing IO seem like something reasonable to improve performance? I tried it, it seemed to improve perf, but I am wondering about the other optimizations I did at the same time |
| 12:42:45 | <merijn> | raehik: There is an indirection because you have "a pointer to a Ptr (the heap object)" and the heap object is 2 words |
| 12:43:02 | <raehik> | this serialization lib does very little other than write bytes so the less heap access the better |
| 12:43:21 | <merijn> | raehik: But any serialisation code touching pointers should force them immediately and the strictness analyzer should trivially detect you reusing the same Ptr |
| 12:43:47 | <merijn> | raehik: I guess that conceptualy it could matter if you are deserialising thousands of (relative?) pointers in the input |
| 12:44:20 | <merijn> | raehik: but if you're, say, accessing the same pointer at different offsets I find it very hard to believe that's gonna produce any serious overhead |
| 12:44:20 | <raehik> | even microbenchmarks showed surprising improvements :/ |
| 12:44:55 | <merijn> | raehik: I'd test "the other optimisations" separate from this unboxing first before investing lots of effort |
| 12:44:57 | <raehik> | the "current position" is shifted along as bytes are written |
| 12:45:30 | <merijn> | Also, I'm skeptical of microbenchmarks, because microbenchmarking is notoriously hard :p |
| 12:45:31 | <raehik> | yeah will do. I have thought about this and had believed I'd compared fairly, but then I noticed something I did for bytestrings |
| 12:46:05 | <raehik> | I did try some fairly realistic data too, same thing... but heavy on bytestrings and I was comparing against an old version I think.... gah |
| 12:46:14 | <merijn> | raehik: It's certainly not impossible for it to matter, just saying it seems very unlikely outside some very specific and niche usage patterns |
| 12:46:46 | <raehik> | thank you for this discussion merijn. data gathering time |
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| 14:40:15 | <geekosaur> | 9.2.7 just dropped! |
| 14:44:26 | <dminuoso_> | Did it break? |
| 14:44:54 | <geekosaur> | not yet… |
| 14:45:02 | <geekosaur> | (9.2.6 did which is why this release) |
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| 15:19:03 | <AWizzArd> | Can I convince ghci to output all foralls when requesting a signature via :type? If yes: how? |
| 15:19:55 | <geekosaur> | :set -xprint-explicit-foralls |
| 15:20:04 | <geekosaur> | er, -fprint-explicit-foralls |
| 15:20:19 | <AWizzArd> | Ah yes, good! |
| 15:21:28 | <geekosaur> | it's also a good candidate for a ~/.ghci file |
| 15:25:40 | <merijn> | Semi-annual reminder that the GHC User's Guide is a treasure trove and you should spend some time skimming it every few months/year ;) |
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| 17:40:33 | <davean> | maerwald: I absolutely think we have to move on past the Haskell standard. It doesn't have a lot of absolutely neccissary things |
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| 18:30:34 | <hellwolf[m]> | am I the only one didn't know about "[1,3..10]" syntax and its connection to enumFromThenTo? I guess that's the drawback of not reading the basic books first... |
| 18:30:41 | <hellwolf[m]> | * am I the only one didn't know about "\[1,3..10\]" syntax and its connection to enumFromThenTo? I guess that's the drawback of not reading the basic book first... |
| 18:31:05 | <hellwolf[m]> | * am I the only one didn't know about "\[1,3..10\]" syntax and its connection to enumFromThenTo? I guess that's the drawback of skipping the basics. |
| 18:31:46 | <sm> | you're not, and yes it is :) |
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| 18:34:42 | <mauke> | on the IRC side of things, there is no edit button, so your message was sent three times. and the first one had the code part looking correct :-) |
| 18:35:12 | <hellwolf[m]> | oh shoot, I should be aware of that next time |
| 18:35:14 | <mauke> | and yes, list syntax desugaring is far from obvious |
| 18:35:37 | <hellwolf[m]> | well, I didn't even know it was for the Enum instance! |
| 18:36:08 | <mauke> | the only hint would be inspecting the types manually |
| 18:36:15 | <hellwolf[m]> | so it should be "enum syntax desugaring"! |
| 18:36:16 | <mauke> | :t \a b c -> [a, b .. c] |
| 18:36:16 | <lambdabot> | Enum a => a -> a -> a -> [a] |
| 18:36:33 | <hellwolf[m]> | but that'd be accurate, but confusing |
| 18:36:33 | <mauke> | I'm talking about all forms of [ ... ] |
| 18:37:01 | <geekosaur> | there's also list comprehensions, for example |
| 18:37:07 | <mauke> | [] is like a data constructor, [x] and [x,y] are like syntactic sugar for x : [] and x : y : [], respectively |
| 18:37:39 | <mauke> | and then there's the enum forms [x ..], [x .. y], [x, y ..], [x, y .. z], and (as geekosaur says) the various list comprehension variants |
| 18:38:05 | <hellwolf[m]> | And [Char] is a pun for some sort of "List Char" right? |
| 18:38:06 | <hellwolf[m]> | * And \[Char\] is a "pun" for some sort of "List Char" right? |
| 18:38:07 | <hellwolf[m]> | sorry, I did edit again. |
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| 18:38:37 | <mauke> | yes, in types `[X]` means `[] X` |
| 18:39:12 | mauke | wonders if that renders as code in Matrix |
| 18:39:38 | <geekosaur> | nope, it doesn't read IRC messages as markdown 😞 |
| 18:42:18 | geekosaur[m] | wonders what matrix does with [x] |
| 18:42:29 | <geekosaur[m]> | nothing in a /me, apparently |
| 18:42:43 | <mauke> | might just be an edit artifact |
| 18:43:03 | <mauke> | because [ ] is potentially special in markdown (link syntax), so it might get auto-escaped |
| 18:43:40 | <geekosaur[m]> | oh right, forgot about that |
| 18:43:57 | geekosaur | switches back over to IRC |
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| 19:54:47 | <ggranberry> | Is anyone in here thinking about submitting a GHC-based proposal for Haskell Summer of Code this year and looking for a Master Student to implement it? I looked at https://summer.haskell.org/ideas.html but didn't see any specific contacts for reaching out. I'd love to chat about any projects to see if I'd be a good fit |
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| 20:12:55 | <sm> | is ghc 9.2.6 likely to appear in nixpkgs quite soon ? |
| 20:13:19 | <sm> | (weeks, days, or already there you fool ?) |
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| 20:20:21 | <ddellacosta> | sm looks like it's already in, just found https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/pull/215852 and then gave it a shot in a local repo that was on 9.2.5, and it seems to be working great |
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| 20:20:40 | <geekosaur> | 9.2.7 was just released though due to bugs |
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| 20:21:17 | <sm> | thanks! |
| 20:21:33 | <ddellacosta> | welp |
| 20:21:42 | <sm> | hellwolf: ^ |
| 20:22:52 | <hellwolf[m]> | got it! but my system nixpkgs is using 22.11, which is stuck at 9.2.4 hmmm |
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| 20:24:46 | <sm> | ack |
| 20:24:48 | <sm> | what is with these bugs.. who invented them |
| 20:25:11 | <sm> | and why is type safe functional programming not preventing them |
| 20:25:18 | <dminuoso_> | sm: 9.2.6 is on nixos-unstable already,. |
| 20:25:46 | <geekosaur> | that fool who asked Mr. Babbage if a computing machine fed bad input could get a correct answer anyway, probably |
| 20:25:49 | <dminuoso_> | Haskell.nix is stuck at 9.2.4 sadly, though |
| 20:26:49 | <monochrom> | That fool got the last laugh because that's what Python, PHP, and HTML do. >:) |
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| 20:27:04 | <sm> | we're asking in the context of the Haskell Tiny Game Jam (which ends in 15.5 hours! last chance to be in https://github.com/haskell-game/tiny-games-hs !) |
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| 21:58:14 | <Nolrai> | Is it normal for "hadrian/build.bat -j" to take 5h41m ?? I thought the wiki said it should take about 20 minutes? |
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| 22:00:26 | <geekosaur> | probably best asked in #ghc, but it'll depend on build options (higher optimization, validate builds, etc.) |
| 22:00:57 | <jackdk> | And the build machine, of course |
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| 22:13:46 | <shapr> | @quote |
| 22:13:46 | <lambdabot> | composition says: "Here's a categorical rule of thumb: everytime you have composition, you should look for a category." |
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| 22:20:08 | <monochrom> | Good advice. :) |
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| 22:37:08 | <ghostbuster> | would implementing something like AES in haskell be easier or harder than in C/C++ (or impossible?) |
| 22:37:39 | <mauke> | depends on which properties you want it to have |
| 22:37:52 | <shapr> | https://github.com/vincenthz/hs-cipher-aes/blob/master/Crypto/Cipher/AES.hs ? |
| 22:38:03 | <geekosaur> | possible but you have lots of gotchas because you don't have as much control over the execution, so side channel attacks might be easier |
| 22:38:09 | <mauke> | correctness and memory safety, probably easier in haskell |
| 22:38:19 | <mauke> | running in constant time, probably harder |
| 22:38:33 | <ghostbuster> | interesting |
| 22:38:43 | <shapr> | https://hackage.haskell.org/packages/search?terms=aes |
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| 23:28:41 | <c_wraith> | These days if you're on x64 and using aes that's not using the CPU intructions for it, you're leaving a lot on the floor in terms of performance. Neither C nor Haskell are gonna give you that by default. You want quick access to machine code. |
| 23:31:24 | <AWizzArd> | For newtype Cont a = Cont { unCont :: forall r. (a -> r) -> r } I have this fmap implementation: fmap f (Cont c) = Cont (\b -> c (b . f)) |
| 23:32:11 | <AWizzArd> | Interestingly fmap f (Cont c) = Cont (\b -> b (c f)) also compiles. |
| 23:33:48 | <mauke> | c_wraith: or C compiler intrinsics |
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All times are in UTC on 2023-02-27.