Logs on 2023-03-15 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 02:12:48 | <hololeap> | monomer looks awesome |
| 02:15:22 | <sm> | I would like to see some monomer apps! |
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| 02:21:47 | <hololeap> | I played around with the demo exes and now I'm reading the haddocks, and it looks like something I tried to make a long time ago but failed because I didn't know enough. |
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| 02:23:03 | <hololeap> | but it looks flexible enough to do just about anything. it's great because this kind of library has been sorely missing from haskell for a long time |
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| 02:23:16 | <hololeap> | (and yeah, I guess monomer has been around for a couple years at least, but I didn't know about it) |
| 02:24:01 | <sm> | there are a lot of gui libs by now, but still not many gui apps. Maybe they're less needed nowadays |
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| 02:24:24 | <sm> | replaced by web browsers |
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| 02:26:36 | <hololeap> | what do people use for browser stuff? is it still threepenny? |
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| 02:30:03 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | so, chatgpt4 knows haskell. try asking it to write tic tac toe in haskell ;-) |
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| 02:34:13 | <sm> | hololeap: anything and everything methinks |
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| 02:52:25 | <maerwald[m]> | segfaultfizzbuzz: did you? |
| 02:52:57 | <maerwald[m]> | For some reason my excitement of this tech is so low I barely played with it at all. I feel like supervising a student, which is just stressfu' |
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| 04:49:18 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | maerwald: yes i did. i didn't try to run the haskell code but i did it in another language and it ran |
| 04:49:58 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | i asked it to write a few simple programs and they all worked... i am guessing that i didn't get lucky |
| 04:50:30 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | it seems like this might replace 95% of little excel functions and ad hoc sql queries and the like in the next decade |
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| 07:30:29 | <dminuoso> | Mmm. Is there some sneaky way to inject getpeername into a header from inside warp without modifying warp? |
| 07:30:47 | <dminuoso> | Ive been going over the documentation over and over again, and I just dont see any interface that reasonably lets me do this. |
| 07:32:04 | <dminuoso> | At best an Application has a Reques, which has a field removeHost, but I would need the file descriptor of the connection and I just dont see how you can get that |
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| 08:13:10 | <Athas> | Is there a library with a monomorphic tuple type? E.g. 'type Pair a = (a,a)'. I mostly need this due to the implications it has for typeclass instances (e.g. Functor). |
| 08:14:29 | <mauke> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-9.6.1/docs/GHC-Data-Pair.html#t:Pair :-/ |
| 08:15:02 | <Athas> | Yeah, alright, but I'm not going to depend on that package. |
| 08:15:12 | <Athas> | I guess I can write my own. I also need Triple. No big deal. |
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| 08:16:08 | <mauke> | ghc GHC.Data.Pair, ghc-lib-parser GHC.Data.Pair, Agda Agda.Utils.Tuple, one-liner Generics.OneLiner.Internal, quickcheck-state-machine Test.StateMachine.Types |
| 08:16:30 | <Athas> | Well, I'm not the only one to need this, but it does look like nobody is sharing theirs! |
| 08:17:11 | <Hecate> | Athas: hehe |
| 08:17:23 | <[Leary]> | There's also V2 and V3 from linear. |
| 08:18:27 | <Athas> | Yes, V3 has the right structure, but it's a bit of a big dependency for this, and its auxiliary functions all assume numeric elements (which is fair). |
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| 08:20:32 | <[exa]> | Athas: Data.Tuple.Homogenous ? but looks ancient |
| 08:20:47 | <[Leary]> | Product Identity Identity >:) |
| 08:34:05 | <tomsmeding> | Athas: re "nobody is sharing theirs": it would be a tiny tiny package just for a few types like this. And if you have a larger package then it typically has different goals, and exporting types like these would be beside the point. Perhaps that's the reason? (Also, data Pair a = Pair a a deriving (Eq, Ord, Show, Read, Functor, Foldable, Traversable, Generic) :p) |
| 08:34:33 | <tomsmeding> | i.e. "is that really worth a library" |
| 08:34:42 | <Athas> | I will also not be sharing mine. |
| 08:34:46 | <tomsmeding> | :D |
| 08:34:57 | <tomsmeding> | Futhark.Utils.Pair |
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| 09:01:28 | <jonathanx> | I remember a data type that is a number with a type level number limiting the max size. So you could write "Foo 2" to get a number type supporting the range 0 -> 2 |
| 09:01:40 | <jonathanx> | Can't remember the name, anyone know it? |
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| 09:02:34 | <mauke> | quite, but not entirely dissimilar: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.18.0.0/docs/Data-Fixed.html#t:Fixed |
| 09:03:11 | <jackdk> | jonathanx: fin? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/fin |
| 09:05:37 | <mauke> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/finite-typelits-0.1.6.0/docs/Data-Finite.html |
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| 09:06:39 | <jonathanx> | finite-typelits is it! the fin packagesays "finite-typelits . Is a great package, but uses GHC.TypeLits". What's the problem with GHC.TypeLits? |
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| 09:10:38 | <tomsmeding> | jonathanx: they're not an inductive data type, so you can't do induction over them in a decent way |
| 09:10:58 | <tomsmeding> | e.g. you can't have a type class that takes a GHC.TypeLits.Nat parameter and has an instance for 0 and for n+1 |
| 09:11:03 | <tomsmeding> | or at least not easily |
| 09:11:19 | <tomsmeding> | with datakinds-lifted 'data Nat = Z | S Nat', doing stuff like that is trivial |
| 09:11:36 | <jonathanx> | right |
| 09:12:26 | <tomsmeding> | you need ghc-typelits-natnormalise for almost everything, and ghc-typelits-knownnat for the others, and then still there are cases where ghc is just not smart enough to simplify the equations, such as in iirc some pattern matching situations where the plugins kick in too late |
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| 09:17:05 | <tomsmeding> | jonathanx: the fact that this doesn't compile https://play.haskell.org/saved/L8rbUj5K |
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| 09:18:37 | <tomsmeding> | and with AllowAmbiguousTypes on, you can't call bar https://play.haskell.org/saved/EyTYdzio |
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| 09:23:30 | <jonathanx> | Thanks! I've only been exploring dependent haskell a bit, so I only get the general idea. But I have enough to go on whenever I dive into it in the future. Thanks for the helpful responses! :) |
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| 11:28:05 | <mesaoptimizer2> | https://haskell-language-server.readthedocs.io/en/latest/configuration.html config for eglot uses TWO `:config` declarations. This means the second one isn't run, and this causes a bug that is hard to notice. Wasted 15-30 minutes of my life |
| 11:29:34 | <mesaoptimizer2> | you have no idea how much I hate the pain it takes to set up Haskell tooling. It is about as painful as setting up Arch Linux. |
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| 11:41:15 | <Jade[m]1> | Arch is pretty easy to set up tbh |
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| 11:54:57 | <mesaoptimizer2> | try using LUKS hard disk encryption, and using grub. Oh, and using a non-standard keyboard layout to input the password in grub. In contrast, Manjaro and QubesOS are a delight to install (not use -- Manjaro is ridiculous. And QubesOS doesn't make sense for most people). But this is off-topic. |
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| 12:54:12 | <fendor[m]> | <mesaoptimizer2> "https://haskell-language-server..." <- thank you for finding issues in the documentation, would you mind opening an issue or providing a PR that fixes it? |
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| 12:57:05 | <bionade24> | Hello, I need help understanding import correctly. When I do "import Numeric" why is Natural not in scope? |
| 12:58:26 | <geekosaur> | because Numeric is not Numeric.Natural |
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| 12:59:45 | <geekosaur> | did you come from Python, by any chance? |
| 13:00:44 | <bionade24> | geekosaur: Python is one of the langs I'm proficient in ;) |
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| 13:01:47 | <geekosaur> | so, as I understand it, in Python if you import something you are actually exposing the contents of an object, and something like `Numeric.Natural` would mean "the sub-object `Natural` of the object `Numeric`" |
| 13:01:51 | <bionade24> | When I open ghci and "import Numeric" and then want to run ":info Numeric" it isn't in scope either. |
| 13:03:19 | <geekosaur> | in Haskell, a module is just a file. there are no objects or other things involved, and a module `Numeric` would only bring a type or constructor `Numeric` in scope if it happened to export one |
| 13:03:44 | <geekosaur> | but in fact `Numeric` is just a collection of things related to numbers, so there's no `Numeric` to show you afterward |
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| 13:04:33 | <bionade24> | geekosaur: But if I'd do a "import qualified Numeric" It'd behave like in python, wouldn't it? |
| 13:04:43 | <geekosaur> | nope |
| 13:05:09 | <geekosaur> | there still wouldn't be a thing called Numeric, it'd just e a prefix you would have to provide for things |
| 13:05:34 | <geekosaur> | see also `import qualified … as X` which changes that prefix, it doesn't rename an object |
| 13:06:23 | <jackdk> | > :browse Data.List |
| 13:06:25 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘:’ |
| 13:06:33 | <jackdk> | % :browse Data.List |
| 13:06:34 | <yahb2> | Data.List.isSubsequenceOf :: Eq a => [a] -> [a] -> Bool ; (!!) :: [a] -> Int -> a ; (++) :: [a] -> [a] -> [a] ; (base-4.16.4.0:Data.OldList.\\) :: Eq a => [a] -> [a] -> [a] ; all :: Foldable t => (... |
| 13:06:58 | <jackdk> | bionade24: `:info` is not the command to list the contents of a module, you want `:browse` |
| 13:07:00 | <mesaoptimizer2> | fendor[m], I'll try. I stopped using github years ago after they banned a throwaway github account I used to make issues for such projects. |
| 13:07:10 | <bionade24> | geekosaur: Thx, understood. Another question to the same problem. base != Prelude ? Does ghci normally have base? |
| 13:07:17 | <bionade24> | Or only cabal repl |
| 13:07:31 | <fendor[m]> | mesaoptimizer2: thanks! |
| 13:07:31 | <mesaoptimizer2> | (that's why I linked it here btw -- I hope that someone else will make the issue since I didn't want to deal with github) |
| 13:07:45 | <geekosaur> | base is a package, Prelude is a module within that package |
| 13:07:53 | <geekosaur> | Prelude is always imported |
| 13:08:14 | <geekosaur> | you can reliably import any other module from base because it's always available |
| 13:08:29 | <bionade24> | When I do ":browse Numeric" it doesn't contain Natural, despite hoogle telling me so |
| 13:09:16 | <fendor[m]> | In my experience, shouting into the void will usually not make anyone create an issue. E.g., I am not a user of egot, so I can neither confirm what the issue is, nor do I know how to fix it. |
| 13:10:19 | <geekosaur> | hoogle does not tell you so. it tells you there is a module Numeric.Natural |
| 13:10:22 | <mesaoptimizer2> | if "anyone" includes maintainers of HLS, then it is likely they would |
| 13:10:37 | <geekosaur> | this module is, despite its name, unrelated to Numeric |
| 13:10:58 | <mesaoptimizer2> | (but I *do* agree with you about the importance of making issues.) |
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| 13:13:02 | <fendor[m]> | I am a maintainer of HLS :P |
| 13:13:36 | <bionade24> | geekosaur: That confused me. |
| 13:15:09 | <bionade24> | Now I get data constructor not in scope for Natural |
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| 13:16:34 | <geekosaur> | right, because that won't be in scope until you import Numeric.Natural |
| 13:16:55 | <geekosaur> | there isn't anything in Numeric called Natural; there just happens to be a module called Numeric.Natural |
| 13:17:03 | <geekosaur> | but modules don't contain other modules |
| 13:17:14 | <bionade24> | geekosaur: I did import Numeric.Natural before trying to use Natural, |
| 13:17:14 | <geekosaur> | (they can re-export them, with some limitations) |
| 13:18:14 | <geekosaur> | looks in scope to me |
| 13:19:01 | <geekosaur> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/h4sW23xG |
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| 13:22:09 | <geekosaur> | there are no constructors for it; it uses Num for that |
| 13:22:22 | <geekosaur> | @let import Numeric.Natural |
| 13:22:24 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
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| 13:22:47 | <geekosaur> | :t fromInteger 5 :: Natural |
| 13:22:49 | <lambdabot> | Natural |
| 13:23:12 | <geekosaur> | basically, it tries to act like a number; it just doesn't support negative values |
| 13:24:44 | <bionade24> | geekosaur: My bad, tried to do type signatures in ghci. Works in a file |
| 13:25:49 | <bionade24> | Thx for your help |
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| 14:06:56 | <kraftwerk28> | How is this syntax (`(arg2 -> arg3)`) called in a function definition: `myFunction arg1 (arg2 -> arg3) = do ...`? |
| 14:07:26 | <kraftwerk28> | Is that some pattern matching with language extensions? |
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| 14:09:53 | <jackdk> | https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/view_patterns.html#extension-ViewPatterns |
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| 14:11:15 | <kraftwerk28> | jackdk: thank you |
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| 15:22:29 | <kraftwerk28> | And what extension does allow guards in a `do` block? I.e. `do ... if | ... | ...` |
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| 15:24:07 | <geekosaur> | that's not "guards in a do block", `MultiWayIf` is more general than that |
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| 15:26:40 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | seriously, ask gpt4 to write some code |
| 15:28:46 | <EvanR> | if it didn't cost money maybe |
| 15:28:54 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | it didn't cost anything |
| 15:29:04 | <EvanR> | oh? |
| 15:29:23 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | you just have to register with an email address because they want to stop people who ask it to write insane stuff |
| 15:29:34 | <EvanR> | I thought there was a subscription |
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| 15:29:50 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | you *can* pay but i was able to make it produce a haskell program without paying anything |
| 15:30:56 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | it costs if you want api access, to do a very large number of queries, etc |
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| 16:28:52 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | EvanR: did you try it? lol |
| 16:29:38 | <EvanR> | the barrier for me to sign up on sites is pretty high these days |
| 16:29:59 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | it's really worth it |
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| 16:44:41 | <qwert> | can someone link to a documentation or article about maybe and either type I have read some but cannot quite understand them |
| 16:46:28 | <geekosaur> | there doesn't seem to be that much to understand, especially about Maybe? |
| 16:46:42 | <EvanR> | do you understand the pair type (a,b) |
| 16:46:59 | <qwert> | yes |
| 16:47:05 | <EvanR> | if yes, do you understand the type Bool = False | True |
| 16:47:14 | <qwert> | Yes |
| 16:47:17 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | qwert: imo the most confusing thing is that "left is not right" |
| 16:47:26 | <EvanR> | Maybe and Either are a combination of those concepts xD |
| 16:47:44 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | qwert: it might help to read about the rust Option type as something to compare with |
| 16:47:46 | <EvanR> | Either a b = Left a | Right b |
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| 16:48:24 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | qwert: the purpose of this sort of thing is to avoid the "billion-dollar" problem of java where anything can be set to null/none |
| 16:48:25 | <EvanR> | they are holding some payload and you can do case analysis like Bool |
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| 16:53:52 | <dminuoso> | segfaultfizzbuzz | you *can* pay but i was able to make it produce a haskell program without paying anything |
| 16:54:28 | <dminuoso> | Can you make gpt4 write a haskell program that validates whether another haskell program gpt4 wrote makes sense and is correct to the original intentions? |
| 16:54:42 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | dminuoso: lol try it, probably not ;-) |
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| 16:54:50 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | dminuoso: try something simple |
| 16:54:59 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | i guess if you want i will do a pastebin for you folks when i get back |
| 16:55:04 | <dminuoso> | I think you misunderstood what i meant. |
| 16:55:25 | <ncf> | qwert: is there something in particular you don't understand? |
| 16:56:01 | <dminuoso> | Ive done plenty of experimentations with ChatGPT for instance, while it reurgitates code that often does an approximation, its usually subtly bug ridden, or doesnt quite do what you want it to do, especially in some edge cases. |
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| 16:56:26 | <dminuoso> | And the thing is, if people start making it a habit to use this, you will over time lose precious skillset and code quality could go down. |
| 16:56:49 | <EvanR> | technology be doing that |
| 16:57:14 | <EvanR> | I hear the skills to craft and repair CRT tubes is dwindling |
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| 16:58:24 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | shout out some haskell programs you want |
| 16:58:36 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | try to keep it to something which can fit in a couple hundred lines |
| 16:58:49 | <Hecate> | EvanR: I doubt LCD screens are introducing subtle and systematic errors over their CRT counterparts :P |
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| 16:59:35 | <EvanR> | ask your AI to prove a proof of correctness |
| 16:59:40 | <EvanR> | provide* |
| 17:00:03 | <EvanR> | while we still have non-AI proof checkers |
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| 17:01:07 | <mauke> | segfaultfizzbuzz: I could use a Haskell program that correctly parses and extracts the contents of an HTML <script> tag |
| 17:01:13 | <geekosaur> | Hécate: they still don't handle rapid motion very well IME |
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| 17:02:08 | <davean> | geekosaur: they don't which is why we moved to OLEDs |
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| 17:07:49 | <dminuoso> | EvanR: The difference is, CRT tubes are disappearing as well. |
| 17:07:57 | <dminuoso> | but the advent of chatgpt wont make software disappear. |
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| 17:08:13 | <EvanR> | maybe that's something we need to focus on fixing then xD |
| 17:08:29 | <EvanR> | no software, no problems |
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| 17:08:45 | <dminuoso> | Im not saying that AI cant make software, but merely that a language model is *certainly* not the answer. |
| 17:09:17 | <dminuoso> | Its probably the poorest solution of it all, given that the training data includes so much poor things, and language models have error classes that can be subtly nasty. |
| 17:09:26 | <dminuoso> | But who knows |
| 17:09:35 | <dminuoso> | Maybe it will improve the value of good software developers down the line. |
| 17:09:45 | <dminuoso> | Since poor developers can be replaced by things like chatgpt. |
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| 17:10:53 | <EvanR> | using this thing to write my code by using English sounds awful |
| 17:11:17 | <dminuoso> | Given that a poor developers typically is better at english than at writing code, I think it could be an upgrade. |
| 17:11:45 | <EvanR> | yeah but technical english necessary to specify what you really need? |
| 17:11:51 | <dminuoso> | Its not |
| 17:12:05 | <davean> | poor developers are better at writing code than good developers though, are good developers that much worse at English? |
| 17:12:07 | <dminuoso> | Since you can just test it against data, and respond with things like "The input looks bad in this way. Fix it please" |
| 17:12:16 | <dminuoso> | And you repeat it until the software seems to do what you want it to do. |
| 17:12:22 | <mauke> | so I hear you guys are reinventing COBOL? |
| 17:13:00 | <EvanR> | I need an algorithm to solve the discrete log problem. Ok that solution is wrong for the following inputs, fix it! |
| 17:13:00 | <dminuoso> | davean: I think there's some mistake in that sense. |
| 17:14:17 | <dminuoso> | EvanR: machine learning has been successfully used to find more efficient linear algebra algoithms already. |
| 17:14:36 | <dminuoso> | So there's certainly problems that could possibly be solved by tossing enough brute force AI at it. |
| 17:14:51 | <EvanR> | I don't doubt that. Was the part where you formulate a question in English the important part? |
| 17:15:17 | <dminuoso> | Who knows, maybe you can just task a language model to train another neural net on data using plain english |
| 17:15:19 | <EvanR> | i.e. it's the human interface that matters |
| 17:15:20 | <dminuoso> | and make it generate solutions |
| 17:15:40 | <dminuoso> | "write a neural net that can solve these solutions, and then make it go brrrr fast!" |
| 17:15:53 | <dminuoso> | "also, browse through the internet and use cat pictures for training" |
| 17:15:54 | <EvanR> | and then professor moriarty walks off the holodeck |
| 17:16:20 | <dminuoso> | To be fair, all of this already works. |
| 17:16:23 | <dminuoso> | Its called being a professor |
| 17:16:34 | <dminuoso> | Except you dont with a language model, but with a poor PhD student. |
| 17:16:39 | <dminuoso> | *dont talk |
| 17:17:03 | <[exa]> | mauke: rofl |
| 17:18:19 | <davean> | dminuoso: I think thats my point |
| 17:19:37 | <geekosaur> | whose English is poor… |
| 17:20:15 | <geekosaur> | ChatGPT3 speaks English a little better than the PhD students I've worked with |
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| 17:24:05 | <EvanR> | can I send chatgpt back in time so I can cheat my english courses and so obtain my questionably valuable degree in math please |
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| 17:25:01 | <EvanR> | also future people, feel free to send the code writing AI to right now |
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| 17:32:21 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | i mean okay here is an example: https://twitter.com/random_walker/status/1636039756864712706 |
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| 17:33:06 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | not haskell but you get the idea |
| 17:33:56 | <[exa]> | segfaultfizzbuzz: you don't see a problem there? |
| 17:33:56 | <mauke> | jesus christ |
| 17:33:58 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | i will be checking the #haskell logs periodically so if you want gpt4 to write a haskell program, just write a simple and clear description and i will run it. no "solve the halting problem"-type tasks |
| 17:34:17 | <mauke> | segfaultfizzbuzz: I could use a Haskell program that correctly parses and extracts the contents of an HTML <script> tag |
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| 17:34:59 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | mauke: you mean like all of javascript? i would add that the program will need to realistically fit into a couple hundred lines or so |
| 17:35:17 | <mauke> | ... no? |
| 17:35:20 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | [exa]: i didn't read or run that code... |
| 17:35:25 | <mauke> | just figure out where the script element ends |
| 17:35:50 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | mauke: okay so the input is html and you want to know the position of the start and end of all script tags within the html? |
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| 17:36:10 | <[exa]> | segfaultfizzbuzz: please stop and think |
| 17:36:23 | <mauke> | even more basic, assume the input is HTML and starts with "<script" |
| 17:36:32 | <mauke> | and I want to know where the corresponding end tag is |
| 17:36:56 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | mauke: are you guaranteed that there is a single end tag or can there be nesting and soforth? |
| 17:37:15 | <mauke> | HTML doesn't allow script elements to be nested |
| 17:37:40 | <mauke> | so either there is a single corresponding script end tag or the end tag is missing, in which case I want an error of some kind |
| 17:37:45 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | mauke: okay so just search for </script>, but parse html comments correctly? |
| 17:37:47 | <mauke> | like returning Nothing or -1 |
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| 17:38:04 | <mauke> | script elements don't contain comments |
| 17:38:19 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | okay so just search through a string for </script> i guess? |
| 17:38:26 | <mauke> | wait, why am I explaining the problem to you? I thought chatgpt knew how to solve this |
| 17:39:00 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | [exa]: i don't see the issue but i am not a good programmer |
| 17:39:07 | <mauke> | "search for </script>" is wrong for a variety of reasons |
| 17:39:15 | <mauke> | I want something conforming to the HTML5 specification |
| 17:39:49 | <[exa]> | segfaultfizzbuzz: that's okay, to go to actual issue please try asking gpt why website citations should be punishable |
| 17:40:11 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | mauke: so something like "write a haskell program for parsing the beginning and end of script tag locations in an html string which conforms to the HTML5 specification"? |
| 17:40:58 | <mauke> | I like my original version better |
| 17:41:22 | <mauke> | the string doesn't necessarily conform to anything; the algorithm should implement (part of) a conforming HTML5 parser |
| 17:41:35 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | ok so you want " write a Haskell program that correctly parses and extracts the contents of an HTML <script> tag" |
| 17:43:22 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | mauke: ^ |
| 17:45:13 | <EvanR> | I'm hearing we need to actually know how to program still |
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| 17:45:32 | <davean> | EvanR: "Website citations themselves should not be punishable, as they are an essential part of academic writing and research. In fact, citing sources is critical for providing evidence to support your arguments, giving credit to the authors of the information you are using, and allowing others to locate and verify the information you have presented." |
| 17:46:15 | <EvanR> | what |
| 17:46:21 | <davean> | website citations are some of the best citations because there isn't a walled garden blocking the open exchange of information, and unlike papers they aren't lost to time in like 5 years |
| 17:46:31 | <davean> | EvanR: thats GPTs reply to your question |
| 17:48:22 | <EvanR> | alright that's the universe's 1 free chatGPT generated response to a question I didn't ask chatGPT |
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| 18:43:32 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | EvanR: i have made dozens of requests to chatgpt4 for free, only having made an account, and haven't hit any kind of paywall etc |
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| 18:55:51 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | okay here we go: https://paste.rs/HSB https://paste.rs/H7Y.hs |
| 18:56:18 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | mauke: see above :-) i used the prompt i quoted above except i said "according to the HTML5 specification" |
| 18:57:22 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | you might have to fix an import or something |
| 18:57:31 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | let me know what you think, i will be reading the logs ;-) |
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| 20:21:24 | <Profpatsch> | I’m confused at this pattern match redundancy warning |
| 20:21:27 | <Profpatsch> | I have effectively |
| 20:21:42 | <Profpatsch> | let foo :: Maybe a = … |
| 20:22:25 | <Profpatsch> | case foo of { Nothing -> …; Just a -> … case foo of Nothing -> …; Just again -> … } |
| 20:22:50 | <Profpatsch> | And GHC warns that the inner Nothing match is redundant, as if it understand that I already matched on `foo` and am already in the Just case! |
| 20:22:54 | <Profpatsch> | Should that be possible? |
| 20:23:03 | <Profpatsch> | (I know that the code is dumb, I’m in the process of refactoring it) |
| 20:23:51 | <geekosaur> | it does understand that |
| 20:23:57 | <Jade[m]1> | Profpatsch: It's as GHC says |
| 20:24:15 | <Profpatsch> | Now I’m kinda interested in how that works |
| 20:24:22 | <Profpatsch> | does it do the analysis after simplification? |
| 20:25:17 | <Profpatsch> | I know that typechecking is done on surface language to keep positions of code |
| 20:25:53 | <geekosaur> | as part of simplification, I think; part of simplification is analyzing and rewriting `case`s to a simpler form for core |
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| 20:26:41 | <Profpatsch> | The thing is that my second `case` comes after some code that is even monadic |
| 20:26:52 | <davean> | Thats not relivent |
| 20:26:52 | <Profpatsch> | So it must float stuff out quite eagerly |
| 20:26:56 | <Profpatsch> | Which makes sense |
| 20:27:02 | <davean> | it doesn't have to move anything at all though |
| 20:27:09 | <geekosaur> | ^ |
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| 20:27:27 | <geekosaur> | all it has to know is that it's one `case` inside another one, and they have the same scrutinee |
| 20:27:43 | <Jade[m]1> | The beauty of purely functional code is that it doesn't matter where a function is |
| 20:27:52 | <Jade[m]1> | same inputs => same outputs |
| 20:27:59 | <Profpatsch> | So it’s not done during simplification, but when annotating stuff? |
| 20:28:11 | <Profpatsch> | for later simplification I mean |
| 20:28:11 | <Jade[m]1> | so it won't really matter what the surrounding context is |
| 20:28:29 | <Profpatsch> | Jade[m]1: yeah I know that, but I’m more interested in the inner workings of specifically GHC |
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| 20:29:26 | <Profpatsch> | especially how it can map these warnings back to surface language, because my impression was always that after typechecking and maybe some annotation passes it’s not possible anymore to get good error positions |
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| 20:29:41 | <Profpatsch> | Maybe I should ask in #ghc |
| 20:30:53 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | EvanR: did you see what i pasted above? |
| 20:31:07 | <Profpatsch> | once I’ve refactored this code, there won’t be any nested case matches on the same variable like that anymore anyway |
| 20:31:15 | <Profpatsch> | I was just deligted to see GHC can do that |
| 20:31:31 | <Profpatsch> | It really helps with refactoring and noticing strange logic like that |
| 20:31:36 | <EvanR> | some ruby code to hook up an API |
| 20:31:52 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | EvanR: no it was haskell,... wasn't it? lol |
| 20:32:18 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | https://paste.rs/H7Y.hs |
| 20:33:18 | <EvanR> | parsing script tags? did you test it |
| 20:34:18 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | it can't find isPrefixOf :: Bool -> String -> Bool and i'm a little unsure of what to do |
| 20:34:38 | <geekosaur> | re error positions: ghc annotates everything in the surface language with source locations, so it can always get them back and even regurgitate source |
| 20:34:52 | <geekosaur> | see "exactprint" |
| 20:34:56 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | i tried hoogle and there doesn't seem to be such a function |
| 20:35:38 | <int-e> | segfaultfizzbuzz: Well, why would the first argument be a Bool? You have a precedence problem. |
| 20:35:46 | <geekosaur> | `isPrefixOf` is in Data.List, but not with that signature (`Bool`, really?) |
| 20:35:52 | <int-e> | That aside, isPrefixOf is ... as geekosaur said |
| 20:36:21 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | it's from this line: | count == 0 && "<script" `isPrefixOf` str = ("", str) |
| 20:36:25 | <int-e> | Oh and once you import it its precedence will maybe be different. |
| 20:36:27 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | looks like it forgot to define a function lol |
| 20:36:35 | <davean> | segfaultfizzbuzz: you're not doing precidence right |
| 20:36:49 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | lol that isn't my code, that is chatgpt4 ;-) |
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| 20:37:16 | <EvanR> | I'll give it needing an import |
| 20:37:25 | <EvanR> | sounds like it's not the only problem |
| 20:37:40 | <mauke> | segfaultfizzbuzz: heh. that's really broken code |
| 20:38:15 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | mauke: this is the first "broken" code i have encountered out of several attempts, albeit those may have been lucky attempts |
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| 20:38:46 | <EvanR> | welp sounds like we can't ship unvetted code that comes out of the AI |
| 20:39:02 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | lol not for another year or two at least ;-) |
| 20:39:04 | <mauke> | segfaultfizzbuzz: so far, every single example of "AI"-generated code I've seen has been broken, sometimes blatantly so |
| 20:39:21 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | mauke: i'll do another prompt for you if you want |
| 20:39:27 | <mauke> | nah, don't bother |
| 20:39:30 | <EvanR> | the fact that it looks half way plausible at a glance seems a bit alarming |
| 20:39:32 | <mauke> | it's just more of the same |
| 20:39:41 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | EvanR: right? lol |
| 20:39:55 | <EvanR> | someone who doesn't know any better might literally ship it |
| 20:40:00 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | imagine if they plugged it into ghc and it could read error messages from the compiler and then try to fix them |
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| 20:40:12 | <davean> | segfaultfizzbuzz: thats been done |
| 20:40:18 | <davean> | well, nto for GHC specificly |
| 20:40:24 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | davean: and... doesn't help? |
| 20:40:40 | <mauke> | `scriptContents <- manyTill anyChar (try (string "</script>" <|> string "</SCRIPT>"))` doesn't even try to do anything sensible |
| 20:40:57 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | haha ok |
| 20:41:06 | <davean> | segfaultfizzbuzz: it helps, technically, it doesn't solve the problem though |
| 20:41:14 | <mauke> | it's the equivalent of .*?(</script>|</SCRIPT>) in regex form |
| 20:41:23 | <davean> | these AIs basicly over focus on one piece of context |
| 20:41:44 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | i mean, i don't really believe that humans have magical powers, a soul, etc |
| 20:41:46 | <EvanR> | why doesn't that line of code work |
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| 20:42:03 | <davean> | They can avoid errors, but avoiding errors doesn't produce a correct result. |
| 20:42:06 | <mauke> | like, it kind of "knows" that HTML tags are case insensitive, but then it only searches for two particular forms |
| 20:42:06 | <EvanR> | (don't ask the AI please) |
| 20:42:16 | <davean> | segfaultfizzbuzz: no, but these AIs don't have any reasoning at all |
| 20:42:25 | <int-e> | So... I guess this example leaks the fact that GHC parses infix operations as left-associative at first, then looks up names, and only then rearranges the expression with proper fixities? |
| 20:42:27 | <mauke> | (because it copy/pasted from bad example code on the internet) |
| 20:42:53 | <davean> | segfaultfizzbuzz: you don't have to believe humans are special, you just have to know what these AIs are doing |
| 20:42:54 | <EvanR> | someone teach it to use logic to verify shit it comes up with |
| 20:43:05 | <EvanR> | like formal logic |
| 20:43:39 | <int-e> | EvanR: b-but... its already hard enough to do that with people |
| 20:43:39 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | davean: i should learn more about transformer models but i have seen the QKV attention mechanism and all of that |
| 20:43:40 | <dolio> | Are you ever in here to actually talk about Haskell, instead of excuses to not learn Haskell? |
| 20:44:11 | <mauke> | the preceding line, manyTill anyChar (try (string "<script" >> manyTill anyChar (char '>'))), is also broken in several ways |
| 20:44:13 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | haha, yeah sorry for crowding the channel, i just thought this was really cool |
| 20:44:36 | <mauke> | for example, here the author forgot that tags are case insensitive and only checks for "<script" |
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| 20:45:13 | <mauke> | but all this is doing is .*?<script.*?> |
| 20:45:15 | <EvanR> | it's like it's spitballing |
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| 20:45:32 | <int-e> | > length "<script></script>" |
| 20:45:33 | <lambdabot> | 17 |
| 20:45:41 | <mauke> | which is basically "parsing" HTML with regex, only fancier (with Parsec combinators!) so you can't see it's doing the regex thing |
| 20:45:52 | <Profpatsch> | Regarding AI code … I’m refactoring code written by actual humans, and I dread the day when I’ll have to refactor code written by AI |
| 20:46:07 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | what about the day when you have no idea where the code came from? lol |
| 20:46:09 | <Profpatsch> | like, unless the AI is actually better at writing code than humans |
| 20:46:14 | <EvanR> | your manager insists the AI code is helping |
| 20:46:17 | <Profpatsch> | segfaultfizzbuzz: Sometimes I wonder … |
| 20:46:18 | <EvanR> | now fix it |
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| 20:46:44 | <Profpatsch> | This code is so confused, it could only have been written by a programmer :) |
| 20:46:48 | <mauke> | EvanR: oh, this is basically the outsourcing model |
| 20:46:57 | <mauke> | only without humans in the loop, so it's even cheaper!!1 |
| 20:47:02 | <Profpatsch> | I’m just happy this code is Haskell |
| 20:47:15 | <Profpatsch> | And I forgive the coworker who wrote this |
| 20:47:16 | <int-e> | The problem with AI-generated code is that you still have to understand it to be sure whether it works. So, won't you be better off with writing code that matches how you think about the problem? |
| 20:47:17 | <EvanR> | yeah that's silly... we already do that with random ass web libraries |
| 20:48:02 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | int-e: i mean part of this is interesting because it raises questions about how to encapsulate code |
| 20:48:09 | <Profpatsch> | In semi-related news, overusing middleware abstractions and Vaults considered harmful |
| 20:48:16 | <Profpatsch> | Just KISS |
| 20:48:45 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | at the very least this will make for a very nice variation on quickcheck |
| 20:48:50 | <int-e> | segfaultfizzbuzz: you're poisoning your brain, as far as I'm concerned |
| 20:48:59 | <davean> | Oh I HATE the vault thing |
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| 20:51:40 | <EvanR> | also AI art sucks |
| 20:51:50 | <Profpatsch> | davean: nearly as bad as the dataStore :: TVar Json.Value somebody added to our ReaderT environment SMILEY |
| 20:52:06 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | EvanR: wait really? have you seen midjourney images? they are impressive |
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| 20:52:13 | <EvanR> | are you serious |
| 20:52:15 | <Profpatsch> | Even after me telling them to not do that |
| 20:52:18 | <Profpatsch> | Yes |
| 20:52:27 | <Profpatsch> | unfortunately so |
| 20:52:36 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | EvanR: https://www.reddit.com/r/midjourney/comments/11c6qqw/girls_in_renaissance_tracksuits/ |
| 20:52:48 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | i can't fathom how that isn't jaw-dropping |
| 20:53:04 | <davean> | Profpatsch: thats fun. I mean I can see reasons to have such a thing, but like its rare and would usually be in a TVar or such. |
| 20:53:10 | <Profpatsch> | segfaultfizzbuzz: it’s funny at least |
| 20:55:04 | <Profpatsch> | the lengths programmers go to avoid passing arguments to functions |
| 20:55:07 | <[exa]> | can we move the AI nonsense to #-offtopic |
| 20:55:13 | <EvanR> | ^ |
| 20:55:28 | <davean> | segfaultfizzbuzz: Can we not move it anywere? |
| 20:55:32 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | yeah, moved, sorry to crowd the channel ;-) |
| 20:55:42 | <EvanR> | specifically some non-haskell offtopic? xD |
| 20:55:50 | <davean> | EvanR: Yes that |
| 20:56:07 | <int-e> | I unironically want a content warning for AI-generated code |
| 20:56:08 | <davean> | I don't need to read more about some brain dead statistical model |
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| 20:56:39 | <Profpatsch> | int-e: I want an AI that tells me if some code was generated by an AI copying code I wrote |
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