Logs on 2023-03-19 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 03:53:31 | <talismanick> | Is there a rundown for the classic ML module system for those who are used to typeclasses? |
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| 06:57:44 | <mauke> | talismanick: I don't know, but if you find one, let me know! |
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| 09:20:46 | <Umeaboy> | Hi! I'm wondering...... would it be possible to add a define rule in a spec file to use a binary that's installed in a NON standard dir in order for the build to work? |
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| 09:21:42 | <Umeaboy> | I've seen SOME distros adding BuildRequires: /usr/bin/ghc, but no matter if I symlink from the custom dir rpmbuild fails to find it. |
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| 10:21:18 | <david37> | Hello |
| 10:21:53 | <david37> | Looking for matt, is he here? |
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| 10:23:08 | <mauke> | he's usually over in #perl |
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| 12:47:39 | <siers69> | Is the Num typeclass encoding numbers in a tagless final style? It has a typeclass over repr, defining an algebra that returns the repr (in the code repr is "a"). It can be both ints and strings. |
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| 18:45:33 | <EvanR> | based on nothing I'd expect an unboxed vector of Int to take up 1 machine int per Int and unboxed vector of Word8 to take up 1 byte per Word8... is that right |
| 18:45:55 | <EvanR> | what about unboxed vector of (Int, Word8) |
| 18:46:49 | <geekosaur> | I think that gets turned into a tuple of unboxed vectors |
| 18:47:24 | <geekosaur> | and whether Word8 uses 1 or 8 bytes may depend on the ghc version and/or version of vector |
| 18:48:10 | <EvanR> | well that's interesting |
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| 18:52:49 | <c_wraith> | Unboxed vectors definitely do SoA stuff |
| 18:54:36 | <EvanR> | SoA? |
| 18:54:47 | <c_wraith> | Struct of Arrays. |
| 18:55:09 | <c_wraith> | C terminology for making the thing essentially column-oriented instead of row-oriented |
| 18:55:41 | <EvanR> | so if I mutate an unboxed vector of (A,B,C,D) and only change the C it only changes one array? |
| 18:56:02 | <EvanR> | or all 4 with 3 being non-changes |
| 18:56:17 | <geekosaur> | changes only C's array |
| 18:56:46 | <EvanR> | that seems magical |
| 18:56:58 | <c_wraith> | Note that it will likely be a write to all four, because it's just more work to check first. |
| 18:57:10 | <c_wraith> | It's just that the write won't change the values in 3 of them |
| 18:57:17 | <geekosaur> | hm, probably |
| 18:57:28 | <geekosaur> | as for magical, afaik it's just some RULES |
| 18:58:00 | <c_wraith> | I don't think it's even rules. I think it's the fact that every type has its own implementation of MVector for Data.Vector.Unboxed |
| 18:58:02 | <EvanR> | the storage is column oriented but the interface is row oriented |
| 18:58:31 | <c_wraith> | `data family Vector a' |
| 18:58:45 | <c_wraith> | data family, so it's a distinct implementation for each type |
| 18:59:08 | <c_wraith> | Oh, and MVector is a data family as well. |
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| 19:05:52 | <eldritchcookie[m> | if i make a game in haskell is it possible to make a mod loader similar to tmodloader from terraria or mindustry's modloader? |
| 19:06:44 | <eldritchcookie[m> | basically assuming binary compatibility how can i load/link dynamically with haskell code |
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| 19:07:22 | <geekosaur> | @hackage plugins |
| 19:07:22 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/plugins |
| 19:07:53 | <geekosaur> | dunno how up to date it is, looks like its dependency map doesn't exclude ghc9 |
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| 19:09:21 | <eldritchcookie[m> | given my luck it probably is outdated and doesn't compile in ghc 9.2 |
| 19:10:18 | <EvanR> | worse comes to worst, you could FFI to the dynamic loader and call out to a plugin (written potentially in haskell using the same shenanigan to preset itself as a C library?) |
| 19:10:32 | <EvanR> | present* |
| 19:10:55 | <EvanR> | I haven't been clear on the state of plugins in haskell for a while |
| 19:10:59 | <geekosaur> | it's also possible to do it with hint, or with ghc-api, but those will be more work |
| 19:12:00 | <EvanR> | mods in unity games seem to rely on C#'s runtime system more than anything from the game engine or the game itself. Which suggests maybe there is a more haskelly way to allow mods |
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| 19:12:19 | <eldritchcookie[m> | one of my requirements is to not need a compiler at runtime assuming the user downloaded a binary compatible mod |
| 19:14:37 | <geekosaur> | I think that rules out plugins since it depends on the ghc package which is ghc-as-a-library |
| 19:14:54 | <eldritchcookie[m> | yeah exactly |
| 19:15:16 | <eldritchcookie[m> | thanks anyway, how are haskell programs linked |
| 19:15:18 | <geekosaur> | I think you can't do it without a compiler because "binary compatibility" in Haskell includes type equality as proven by a typechecker |
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| 19:16:22 | <eldritchcookie[m> | binary compatibility i mean like i |
| 19:16:35 | <geekosaur> | haskell libraries are by default static |
| 19:16:38 | <eldritchcookie[m> | a nix binary cache |
| 19:17:13 | <geekosaur> | there are dynamic libraries possible but they have abi hashes because they need to match exactly |
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| 19:18:25 | <EvanR> | seems to offer some hope https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/shared_libs.html |
| 19:18:39 | <EvanR> | "Shared libraries are also commonly used as a plugin mechanism by various applications" |
| 19:18:58 | <EvanR> | and mentions that exporting haskell code to be used by other haskell code is possible but more complicated than exporting a C interface |
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| 19:35:43 | <eldritchcookie[m> | where could i find more information on haskell shared libraries? |
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| 20:09:39 | <davean> | eldritchcookie[m: what information are you looking for? |
| 20:15:50 | <[exa]> | eldritchcookie[m: tbh they are linked very much like the normal C programs, except the common assumptions about what the symbols point to are highly messed up |
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| 20:18:03 | <eldritchcookie[m> | i actually don't know enough to know exactly what i want but my requirements would be be able to link at run time and decide what to link at run time, i then would need to be able to make a function call of a IO action but besides that the only limitation is that at run time it shouldn't need ghc |
| 20:21:06 | <EvanR> | one way is to interpret the mod code at runtime |
| 20:21:15 | <EvanR> | like, a script DSL or something |
| 20:22:11 | <eldritchcookie[m> | that is like my second option but i would like to have the game be moddable with haskell |
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| 20:23:27 | <EvanR> | makes sense |
| 20:24:03 | <EvanR> | try the plugins package, I tried it a long time ago and it worked. But that was a long time ago |
| 20:24:16 | <geekosaur> | it requires the compiler available at runtime |
| 20:24:20 | <EvanR> | oh |
| 20:24:22 | <geekosaur> | trying to think how to do this |
| 20:25:34 | <EvanR> | it's possible for a C program to call haskell code, and for a haskell code to call C code. By equational reasoning or something just stick 2 or three stages of that to get haskell code to call haskell code |
| 20:25:41 | <geekosaur> | ffi call into the dso, which calls hs_init so it can run embedded haskell code? should only require the compiler at compile time but may involve some hassle to get plumbed in |
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| 20:27:58 | <eldritchcookie[m> | how is the ffi implemented? surely we can just call haskell code from haskell code? |
| 20:28:13 | <geekosaur> | not via the ffi, no |
| 20:28:18 | <geekosaur> | you just call it |
| 20:28:26 | <geekosaur> | ffi is designed to call C codde |
| 20:29:31 | <eldritchcookie[m> | maybe forking the rts? wow this is a endless rabbit hole |
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| 20:32:01 | <geekosaur> | https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/9.6.1/docs/users_guide/exts/ffi.html#making-a-haskell-library-that-can-be-called-from-foreign-code might be of interest |
| 20:32:12 | <geekosaur> | and how would forking the rts help? |
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| 20:33:18 | <EvanR> | heh, a second process to run the mod and communicate over IPC |
| 20:33:40 | <int-e> | Yeah the RTS is probably the most ABI-stable part of this picture. |
| 20:33:56 | <EvanR> | all this is very similar to wanting to use the native GUI library which is probably in an arcane language like objective C |
| 20:35:42 | <EvanR> | if the java bridge used to work surely there's a way to make a "haskell bridge" |
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| 20:37:45 | <geekosaur> | hm, actually that link talks about hs_main and hs_exit which you shouldn't want since you want to use the existing one |
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| 20:39:44 | <geekosaur> | so afaict you just build your haskell library wrapped in a C entry point (think C++'s `extern "C"`) and FFI-call that |
| 20:40:32 | <geekosaur> | building the library requires the compiler (duh) and interface modules, running it should work without either |
| 20:41:18 | <geekosaur> | ("interface modules" here should be just their .hi files) |
| 20:42:40 | <eldritchcookie[m> | <geekosaur> "and how would forking the rts..." <- well mindustry seems to work via some lazy loading sorcery? at least from looking at the code it seems to load mods by instantiating a special class loader so the library is only needed at run time? also won't i be locked out of most haskell features if i go via the ffi? |
| 20:44:26 | <geekosaur> | only the parameters and return values would be constrained to what can be represented in C. again, think `extern "C"` if you know C++. if you don't: once you are in the foreign code via the FFI call, you can call arbitrary Haskell code |
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| 20:45:46 | <geekosaur> | you have a basic header file HsFFI.h with the core Haskell definitions, plus an include file generated for the Haskell code you are calling from C by the compiler |
| 20:45:58 | <geekosaur> | once you have called into Haskell via that you can do whatever |
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| 20:49:12 | <geekosaur> | also re your earlier, "class loader" makes me think Java or at least JVM. Haskell does not run in a virtual CPU, it's native code |
| 20:49:21 | <geekosaur> | it just has different requirements than C code |
| 20:50:38 | <eldritchcookie[m> | yeah the example i gave is in java. |
| 20:50:51 | <eldritchcookie[m> | the other on e i know is in c# |
| 20:51:21 | <eldritchcookie[m> | so i didn't even know if it was actually possible for haskell |
| 20:52:37 | <geekosaur> | C# has most of the same behaviors as Java |
| 20:52:46 | <geekosaur> | native code behaves differently |
| 20:53:17 | <geekosaur> | (C# runs in the CLR, Microsoft's equivalent of the JVM) |
| 20:53:28 | <eldritchcookie[m> | but about the c example how could i do something like link with all libs in a specific subfolder of .local/share/mygame/mods and then call functions from these libraries in my game |
| 20:55:07 | <geekosaur> | I described the basics above. the main constraint is that the original call and return can only use C types, but the Haskell code in between can do pretty much anything |
| 20:55:26 | <geekosaur> | if you need to communicate Haskell data you probably end up using IORefs |
| 20:56:10 | <geekosaur> | anything fancier needs the compiler at runtime, as with plugins |
| 20:56:42 | <geekosaur> | hm. actually I don't know how much of the compiler is needed |
| 20:57:14 | <geekosaur> | suppose you could try it with plugins and then see what happens if you move the compiler out of the way temporarily |
| 20:57:19 | <geekosaur> | (lib directory) |
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| 20:58:31 | <eldritchcookie[m> | hm is this https://hackage.haskell.org/package/dynamic-loader relevant? |
| 20:58:45 | <eldritchcookie[m> | it doesn't depend on ghc |
| 20:59:07 | <geekosaur> | "Last success reported in 2016" |
| 20:59:15 | <geekosaur> | good luck |
| 20:59:49 | <eldritchcookie[m> | yeah i need to know if it is worth to patch it to work in a recent version or if i would be wasting my time |
| 20:59:53 | <geekosaur> | hasn't been updated since then, either |
| 21:00:25 | <geekosaur> | in its favor, it only seems to depend on ghc-prim, but there have been a fair number of changes to that |
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| 21:00:47 | <geekosaur> | (definitions for "primitive" types) |
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| 21:06:31 | <eldritchcookie[m> | Enter GHCi. The interactive version of the Glasgow... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/1c0b32dd59b12f4bdd6204304e43b67fdc772eb6>) |
| 21:06:40 | <eldritchcookie[m> | wow it built? |
| 21:07:12 | <eldritchcookie[m> | i guess i will need to write a test before it crashes and burns? |
| 21:11:06 | <EvanR> | what geekosaur made sense. Make a haskell library that can be called from C. Then call it from haskell via the FFI. You aren't locked out of anything on the library side, though there's the FFI marshalling |
| 21:14:25 | <geekosaur> | that's the core of what plugins uses as well |
| 21:14:50 | <geekosaur> | as I said a little earlier, I'm not sure how much if any of the compiler is actually needed at runtime |
| 21:15:26 | <geekosaur> | ghci does its own linking so shouldn't even need the settings file unless to find out whether symbols have leading underscores or etc. |
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| 21:18:03 | <geekosaur> | earlier versions of plugins were more involved but iirc much of the additional functionality made its way into ghc-lib so ghci could use it too |
| 21:18:56 | <geekosaur> | (notably un loading plugins) |
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| 21:38:30 | <eldritchcookie[m> | i tested unsurprisingly it didn't work but it didn't segfault so there is that |
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| 21:39:30 | <geekosaur> | so next is to try with plugins as I said, including moving the library dir out of the way to see if it still works or throws an error about e.g. the settings file |
| 21:40:17 | <geekosaur> | or was that what you tested? I thought you were looking at dynamic-loader |
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| 21:40:36 | <geekosaur> | if that was plugins then I'd file a bug report |
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| 21:41:32 | <eldritchcookie[m> | i tested dynamic loader it didn't throw an exception but didn't find my function |
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