Logs on 2023-03-24 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:10:19	<dibblego>	which function/parser-combinator did I just reinvent?
00:10:20	<dibblego>	skipUntil :: Alternative f => f a -> f e -> f e
00:10:21	<dibblego>	skipUntil p x = x <\|> p *> skipUntil p x
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00:12:35	<EvanR>	there's skipManyTill :: MonadPlus m => m a -> m end -> m end
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00:13:18	<dibblego>	ah thank you
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07:59:32	<Guest96>	hey all, i've been working through haskellbook and in ch 13, i git cloned haskellbook/hello like it said, but when i stack build, i get Prelude.chr: bad argument: 2634022915 in Setup.hs
08:00:01	<Guest96>	google search says i must have object files built with the wrong version of ghc? but i don't see anything and blowing away .stack-work doesn't fix it
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08:01:59	<Guest96>	it says it's using ghc 8.6.5 which matches lts-14.16 and ghcup tui confirms that it's installed (just not system default)
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08:04:12	<tomsmeding>	Guest96: if you're using stack, then it will use whatever stack.yaml contains, disregarding whatever ghcup installs
08:04:36	<tomsmeding>	(unless you've set 'system-ghc: True' or something, but usually people don't)
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08:05:30	<Guest96>	yeah, i assume 8.6.5 is selected by lts-14.16 because i didn't set it myself
08:05:35	<Guest96>	but why is it unable to build?
08:05:47	<tomsmeding>	Guest96: what happens if you change the lts-14.16 in stack.yaml to lts-18.28?
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08:06:17	<Guest96>	lemme try, ghcup needs to pull 8.10.7
08:06:21	<mauke>	whoa, that's some error
08:06:25	<mauke>	is that the full message?
08:06:27	<tomsmeding>	Guest96: no, stack needs that
08:06:32	<tomsmeding>	Guest96: ghcup is not involved in stack
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08:06:49	<Guest96>	no, but stack build auto triggers ghcup to install the needed ghc version
08:07:01	<tomsmeding>	Guest96: oh is that integrated nowadays? O.o
08:07:03	<tomsmeding>	that's cool
08:07:04	<Guest96>	yes
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08:07:27	<Guest96>	at least with stack installed via ghcup? i can't remember how the dependencies are all interlinked anymore lol
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08:07:31	<tomsmeding>	yeah
08:07:47	<Guest96>	that's what i meant about 8.6.5 being installed before when i had the old lts
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08:07:55	<Guest96>	okay, seems like that built
08:08:02	<tomsmeding>	anyway, given the strangeness of your error I'm hoping that there's something wrong with the 8.6.5 installation (which is a couple years old at this point), and hoping that 8.10.7, which is newer and still very widely used, will not have that bug
08:08:14	<tomsmeding>	maybe something in that new stack-ghcup interaction that wasn't tested with older ghcs
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08:08:23	<tomsmeding>	Guest96: I see
08:08:24	<Guest96>	yeah i know 8.6.5 isn't recent or anything but i thought the point of stackage was to avoid bitrot
08:08:29	<tomsmeding>	yes of course
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08:08:41	<tomsmeding>	_ostensibly_ what you did should work
08:08:42	<Guest96>	and the book is a couple years old too so i figured it would still build equivalent to whatever was new at that time
08:08:51	<tomsmeding>	however :p
08:08:52	<Guest96>	huh, weird
08:10:15	<Guest96>	hm, i reverted the lts version and now it builds on 14.16 too
08:10:24	<tomsmeding>	interesting
08:10:32	<tomsmeding>	perhaps some Setup.hs only ran once
08:10:43	<tomsmeding>	and it failed but nobody cared so the next time everything is fine?
08:11:02	<Guest96>	i guess it needed to clobber something in my $HOME/.stack?
08:11:10	<tomsmeding>	presumably
08:11:19	<Guest96>	weird, well, thanks for the help
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08:11:39	<tomsmeding>	if you want to continue experimenting you could remove some stuff in ~/.stack and try again, to see if the error reappears
08:11:46	<tomsmeding>	but in any case you seem to have a working setup now
08:11:51	<Guest96>	haha i think i'm not gonna look a gift horse in the mouth for now
08:11:58	<tomsmeding>	as I suspected :)
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10:35:29	<pkal>	Does anyone know what .hs-boot files are?
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10:45:11	<int-e>	Yes: https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/separate_compilation.html#how-to-compile-mutually-recursive-modules
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11:32:58	<pkal>	Does it make sense that HLS suggests these files are places where functions are defined?
11:36:21	<dminuoso>	What do zou mean_
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11:36:27	<dminuoso>	Oh. What do you mean?
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11:40:33	<pkal>	Sometimes in Emacs when I use M-. to jump to a definition, I am given to file locations, one .hs the other .hs-boot
11:40:51	<pkal>	(Context, I am working on Agda, and for some reason these files were added to the repo)
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11:48:17	<siers69>	(Why) Do typeclasses have to have laws? That doesn't seem entirely necessary.
11:51:16	<__monty__>	Laws are what make them useful wrt reasoning about them.
11:52:37	<__monty__>	You can only abstract over Functors or Monads because you can rely on the laws. The fact they're a typeclass is just an implementation detail.
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11:54:02	<pkal>	siers69: "(Why) Do typeclasses have to have laws?" No, in the sense that the compiler doesn't enforce them, but yes in the sense that they are expected for the abstraction to work. Or why do you think they are not necessary?
11:56:09	<dminuoso>	siers69: The why part is a really good question, actually.
11:56:09	<siers69>	Ok, first, tell me what about the list typeclass? What laws would that have? "class List a where nil :: List a; cons :: a -> List a -> List a" (I hope I didn't screw anything up in the code.)
11:56:37	<dminuoso>	siers69: I think you have it backward.
11:56:47	<siers69>	I just might and that's why I'm here.
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11:56:55	<dminuoso>	There's a rough consensus amongst many Haskellers that a typeclass should only exist if it is lawful.
11:57:40	<dminuoso>	The thing is, haskell typeclasses arent quite like `interfaces` or `behaviors` from other languages.
11:58:00	<dminuoso>	So the beginning question is, what can you infer from `f :: F a => ... a ...`?
11:58:36	<dminuoso>	In a setting where you use `F` as a kind of interface, it might be suitable in the sense of `HasLogging` perhaps
11:58:42	<dminuoso>	Those are fine, and dont need laws really.
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11:59:06	<dminuoso>	However, there's a greater family of things where its hard to describe what the typeclass really embodies.
11:59:31	<dminuoso>	Take `Functor` for instance. It doesnt embody anything but its laws. However, if you do that, it opens up code transformations and reasoning based on just the laws.
12:01:05	<siers69>	how come they aren't? aren't technically or aren't supposed to be?
12:01:09	<Axman6>	the Default class is a good example of a lawless class, where knowing that a type has an instance tells you basically nothing, other that you can make _something_ of that type. That something tends to follow some conventions, but without laws (which you'd struggle to define for that class), you can't then start to write code that is generic over types which are instances of Default
12:02:29	<Axman6>	foo :: Default a => ... a ... basically doesn't tell me anything
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12:03:48	<siers69>	It's a selling point for "typeclasses are more useful, if they're lawless".
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12:04:16	<Axman6>	I'm not sure how you could come to that conclusion from what I've said
12:04:24	<Axman6>	did you mean lawful?
12:04:30	<siers69>	yes, lawful, sorry
12:04:31	<Axman6>	or, have laws?
12:04:41	<Axman6>	ok :)
12:05:28	<maerwald[m]>	Laws are for conformists
12:05:37	<Axman6>	\m/
12:06:54	<maerwald[m]>	Would be interesting if GHC had knowledge of the monad/applicative laws and be able to apply more optimization/rewrites
12:07:04	<siers69>	qa
12:07:22	<maerwald[m]>	But right now they are only in your head
12:07:27	<Axman6>	siers69: Also worth mentioning that your code above doesn't make a whole lot of sense, I guess you could have something like this though: class List t where nil :: t a; cons :: a -> t a -> t a (depending on what you what that class to be able to achieve).
12:07:30	<maerwald[m]>	No monad police
12:08:08	<siers69>	Axman6, I thought I was missing something, yeah I wanted to define the list algebra over some set.
12:08:45	<Axman6>	can we write instance specific RULES though? If we know a particular monad obeys the laws, then have monomorphic RULES
12:09:31	<__monty__>	Monomorphic or monadmorphic?
12:09:53	<Axman6>	por que no los dos?
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12:17:52	<siers69>	Axman6, does the list algebra have any laws?
12:19:13	<Axman6>	not sure, it would probably need some operations that use t a to have laws
12:19:49	<Axman6>	like adding (+++) :: t a -> t a -> t a
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12:19:58	<Axman6>	or foldr
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12:26:34	<dminuoso>	13:06:54 maerwald[m] \| Would be interesting if GHC had knowledge of the monad/applicative laws and be able to apply more optimization/rewrites
12:26:46	<dminuoso>	Yes, consider the amount of GHC bug reports when it applies a "wrong" optimization.
12:27:14	<dminuoso>	Without a checkable proof, I think it's a bad idea.
12:28:00	<dminuoso>	Just consider that many bugs arising from improper accursedUnutterablePerformIO usage ended up as GHC bugs before they were identified as bytestring bugs or what not.
12:29:08	<dminuoso>	I'd rather use Yoneda manually than have GHC incorrectly assume correct Functor laws
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12:36:02	<zzz>	little help: f x y = pure $ g x y === f x = pure . g x === f = ???
12:36:32	<zzz>	@pl pure $ g x y
12:36:32	<lambdabot>	pure (g x y)
12:38:15	<dminuoso>	f = pure .: g
12:38:18	<zzz>	f = (pure .) . g -- ?
12:38:25	<dminuoso>	sure, that'ss the same expression.
12:38:31	<dminuoso>	.: = (.) . (.)
12:38:35	<dminuoso>	.: = (.) `fmap` (.)
12:38:39	<dminuoso>	.: = fmap fmap fmap\
12:38:57	<dminuoso>	I frequently define .: or .:: on the spot when its convenient
12:39:12	<zzz>	oh ok
12:39:21	<zzz>	i think ill use a lambda for readability
12:39:22	<dminuoso>	`.: = fmap . fmap` or `.:: = fmap . fmap . fmap` is what I usuallyw rite then
12:39:25	<dminuoso>	Yeah that's great too.
12:39:44	<zzz>	:)
12:39:46	<dminuoso>	I tend to use .: when its useful for vertical alignment
12:40:01	<dminuoso>	zzz: https://gist.github.com/dminuoso/23bb703a4b355027a93b56e369d41145
12:40:03	<dminuoso>	like here
12:40:21	<dminuoso>	(well not quite alignment, but you get the idea - it fits better visually)
12:41:02	<dminuoso>	the nice thing about .:: is that is you stare at just the bottom row, you can visually see the nth argument it composes into.
12:41:19	<dminuoso>	. composes for the first argument, .: for the second, .:: for the third, and so on :)
12:41:42	<zzz>	i dont know why but my functional intuition was that there would be some elegant way to express this
12:41:55	<dminuoso>	and additionally nice is that the total number of dots remains the same when you write `(.::) = (.) . (.) . (.)`
12:42:02	<dminuoso>	there's some cool symmetry there. :)
12:42:19	<zzz>	:) nice
12:42:50	<dminuoso>	`(f .) . g` I dislike however though, it takes extra mental effort to decipher it for me.
12:43:00	<dminuoso>	It looks like output from lambdabots @pl
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12:44:34	<Profpatsch>	class IntegerLiteral a where
12:44:35	<Profpatsch>	integerLiteral :: Integer -> a
12:44:46	<Profpatsch>	instance IntegerLiteral num => Num (NumLiteralOnly sym num) where
12:45:25	<Profpatsch>	data Foo instance IntegerLiteral (Enc x) where
12:45:34	<Profpatsch>	huh
12:45:40	<Profpatsch>	Oh, sorry lol, I’m gonna paste
12:45:53	<Profpatsch>	It’s only two more lines though hrm
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12:46:45	<Profpatsch>	data Foo a = … deriving (Num) via (NumLiteralOnly "Foo" (Foo a)) instance IntegerLiteral (Foo a) where
12:46:49	<Profpatsch>	Am I haskelling this right
12:47:11	<Profpatsch>	I think I’m gonna make a gist
12:47:35	<Profpatsch>	the idea is that I want a blanket newtype instance that allows my types to only implement `fromInteger` in Num, and throw useful errors otherwise
12:47:51	<Profpatsch>	at runtime ofc, but that’s the best one can do afaik
12:50:50	<Profpatsch>	https://gist.github.com/Profpatsch/b49c5f4bace41fa07338e8c07252d712
12:50:57	<Profpatsch>	This is the full code
12:51:26	<Profpatsch>	I implement `IntegerLiteral` and get `Num` for “free” via the NumLiteralOnly instance
12:54:08	<Profpatsch>	Okay, I used the wrong instance, now it should be better
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12:54:48	<Profpatsch>	> Foo 4 + Foo 4
12:54:50	<lambdabot>	error:
12:54:50	<lambdabot>	Data constructor not in scope: Foo :: t0 -> aerror:
12:54:50	<lambdabot>	Data constructor not in scope: Foo :: t1 -> a
12:54:50	<Profpatsch>	*** Exception: Only use as numeric literal allowed for Foo, you tried to multiply (NumLiteralOnly)
12:55:09	<Profpatsch>	but
12:55:11	<Profpatsch>	> 4 :: Foo
12:55:13	<lambdabot>	error:
12:55:13	<lambdabot>	Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘Foo’
12:55:13	<Profpatsch>	Foo 4
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12:55:53	<Profpatsch>	lambdabot should use a symbol that’s not the commonly used quote syntax or REPL symbol :(
12:56:48	<Hecate>	yes
12:56:50	<Hecate>	agreed
12:56:56	<Hecate>	who's the master of puppets here?
12:57:26	<Profpatsch>	Hecate: beware, it’s been that way for 1 or 2 decades, people are gonna explode if you propose to change it :P
12:57:28	<byorgey>	I thought the fact that it's a commonly used REPL symbol is exactly why lambdabot uses it =)
12:58:30	<Profpatsch>	byorgey: well, obviously lambdabot should use λ or Λ :P
12:58:52	<Profpatsch>	or \x.
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13:00:14	<byorgey>	obviously =)
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13:02:11	<yushyin>	i know a few irc channel bots that use the @ symbol. In the past this was not much of a problem, however, nowadays it is.
13:02:37	<yushyin>	:)
13:04:04	<geekosaur>	I know of bots in 3 or 4 channels/channel groups that use @
13:04:26	<geekosaur>	in one it's to distinguish from other bots
13:04:41	<geekosaur>	(granting we don't expect other bots to show uphere)
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13:21:37	<Guest\|17>	Hi! I have come here, unfortunately, with an issue that I am unsure how to solve. I was intending to get back into using haskell and thought to look for how to install it. I found this page - https://www.haskell.org/ghcup/install/#manual-installation - and since I am using WSL 2 with Ubuntu 20.04, I thought that just using `curl --proto '=https'
13:21:37	<Guest\|17>	--tlsv1.2 -sSf https://get-ghcup.haskell.org \| sh` should do the trick. During the installation prompts, I chose to append the PATH variable and to install the HLS and enable the enhanced intergration with stack (though later I tried other combinations with no apparent difference).
13:21:38	<Guest\|17>	Unfortunately, every time I tried this, the installation failed at the download stage. The usual output looks something like
13:21:38	<Guest\|17>	```
13:21:39	<Guest\|17>	% Total % Received % Xferd Average Speed Time Time Time Current
13:21:39	<Guest\|17>	Dload Upload Total Spent Left Speed
13:21:40	<Guest\|17>	0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 --:--:-- 0:03:04 --:--:-- 0
13:21:40	<Guest\|17>	curl: (35) OpenSSL SSL_connect: Connection reset by peer in connection to downloads.haskell.org:443
13:21:41	<Guest\|17>	"curl -Lf https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghcup/0.1.19.2/x86_64-linux-ghcup-0.1.19.2" failed!
13:21:41	<Guest\|17>	```
13:21:42	<Guest\|17>	Sometimes a Total of about 15Mb is present, and one time several other sections were filled out, but the Speed is always 0 with no progress being made, and an eventual end to the connection (though I have also killed this on the occasion it stayed alive for over 5 minutes). I couldn't really find any issue on the boards that seemed similar to mine
13:21:42	<Guest\|17>	and so I am here to ask whether anyone has encountered this before/has an idea on what the issue is and how to fix it.
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14:37:35	<zzz>	what's the simplest library for playing simple waveforms (just a couple of sine/saw/triangle waves interacting) ?
14:38:06	<dminuoso>	Mmm, it would be so awesome if I could get getpeername from the socket in a wai application. :(
14:38:10	<dminuoso>	Say in warp
14:38:36	<dminuoso>	I would be even fine reinjecting that as a http header or something
14:38:49	<dminuoso>	Is there a unix domain socket proxy that would do this for me?
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14:40:50	<geekosaur>	zzz, cross-platform audio is annoyingly difficult, and nobody's done a single-platform library. which means pretty much the only option is sdl_audio which is hardly lightweight
14:41:30	<dminuoso>	geekosaur: there's qt
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14:41:59	<dminuoso>	but I guess that doesnt quite match the "lightweight" requirement :)
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14:42:20	<EvanR>	there's portaudio bindings
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14:43:26	<EvanR>	there doesn't seem to be any fmod bindings...
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14:53:30	<zzz>	i'm not as interested in lightweight as i am in simple to use
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14:55:14	<zzz>	all i want is something like `play $ sine (Hz 446.0) <> saw (Hz 200.0) <> custom [whatever]`
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14:57:11	<zzz>	i'm currently exploring https://hackage.haskell.org/package/synthesizer-core-0.8.3/docs/Synthesizer-Generic-Oscillator.html
14:57:40	<stefan-_>	there seem to be libraries related to SuperCollider, e.g. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hsc3
15:00:40	<zzz>	o.o
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15:00:47	<zzz>	this is going to be harder than i thought
15:01:02	<EvanR>	SDL_Mixer touted itself as easier to use for a long time
15:01:27	<EvanR>	you can also shell out to e.g. aplay (linux ALSA)
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15:02:06	<dminuoso>	Where is the documentation on the -N RTS flag?
15:02:14	<dminuoso>	I cant seem to find it under https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/runtime_control.html#rts-options-for-concurrency-and-parallelism
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15:04:40	<geekosaur>	https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/using-concurrent.html#parallel-options
15:04:53	<geekosaur>	which your link links to
15:05:27	<dminuoso>	Gah that's some poor UX. :(
15:05:30	<dminuoso>	Thanks
15:06:17	<dminuoso>	geekosaur: It would have been nice if they were listed under 5.7 Runtime system (RTS) options
15:06:26	<geekosaur>	yeh
15:06:27	<dminuoso>	Not under 5.4 "Using Concurrent Haskell"
15:06:44	<geekosaur>	there's also random -f flags that aren't listed in the master list of options
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15:18:45	<zzz>	hmm... so i have a tone but it block gloss rendering https://paste.jrvieira.com/1679671082730
15:18:48	<zzz>	what am i doing wrong?
15:19:03	<zzz>	s/block/blocks
15:19:48	<zzz>	oops, wrong paste! this is the correct one: https://paste.jrvieira.com/1679671178614
15:21:23	<[exa]>	you might want to fork off the "soudn rendering" from "picture rendering" using say forkIO
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15:23:28	<EvanR>	audio is usually handled using a callback. The OS calls your callback to get more samples when the sound system is about to runout. Or you could use a blocking strategy and push samples out as fast as they will be accepted. Either way it needs to involve threads if you want something else to be happening concurrently
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15:23:53	<EvanR>	like the gloss main loop
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15:26:13	<EvanR>	zzz, here's an oldie but goodie https://hackage.haskell.org/package/csound-expression
15:26:22	<EvanR>	if you want to screw around with waves
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15:35:07	<zzz>	thanks i'll take a look
15:35:50	<zzz>	i have no experience with concurrency
15:36:59	<EvanR>	you got your forkIO, you got your MVars, you got your TVars, you got your Async (library)
15:37:22	<zzz>	i get the theory, just never done it
15:37:23	<dminuoso>	Mmm, is there an unforkIO, and if yes, what would it do?
15:37:38	<EvanR>	is unfork like pthreads join?
15:37:45	<dminuoso>	Is it? I dont know!
15:37:52	<EvanR>	which would be async's await
15:37:57	<zzz>	*never done it in Haskell
15:38:06	<dminuoso>	16:35:50 zzz \| i have no experience with concurrency
15:38:16	<dminuoso>	Honestly, if this your first experience, it will be a blast. :)
15:38:24	<zzz>	in Haskell
15:38:32	<zzz>	i've done it in other languages
15:38:32	<EvanR>	there will be plenty of "fun" for sure
15:38:42	<EvanR>	not nearly as "fun" as other languages though
15:38:54	<zzz>	unsafeFun ?
15:39:53	<zzz>	hmm... killThread is not working
15:39:55	<zzz>	i mean
15:40:17	<zzz>	let's ignore the fact that i'm creating a thread every frame and killing the previous one
15:40:20	<zzz>	https://paste.jrvieira.com/1679672197883
15:41:26	<EvanR>	"not working"
15:41:50	<zzz>	it keeps adding sines to the signal until it explodes
15:42:03	<geekosaur>	if it's making an FFI call to play the audio, and that FFI call is not marked as interruptible, killThread won't work
15:42:13	<zzz>	oh
15:42:22	<zzz>	there you go
15:42:24	<zzz>	thanks
15:42:46	<EvanR>	you wouldn't want to be killing this thread anyway because you want it to remain ready to handle the ongoing audio
15:43:05	<zzz>	yes, i was just experimenting
15:43:13	<EvanR>	in your playIO send control messages to the other threads via MVars or something
15:43:29	<zzz>	oh i get it
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15:44:17	<zzz>	when will concurrency be elegant?
15:44:27	<EvanR>	and then when you want music to sound right you set up a sequencer... and when you want the synthesizer or sound right you get sucked into Digital Signal Processing Arcana
15:44:49	<zzz>	no no, i just want simple oscillators
15:45:22	<zzz>	but sound processing is my jam, i would love to do it
15:45:33	<EvanR>	since you're up against the raw OS audio API it's not going to be incredibly elegant
15:46:01	<zzz>	i mean functional concurrency in general
15:46:05	<EvanR>	there was a dream at one time you could hide that behind some FRP and handle time varying signals as is
15:47:04	<EvanR>	well, if you have no experience with haskell's concurrency and lots of experience with traditional pthreads(crap)-like libraries, better hold off on judgements
15:47:59	<[exa]>	zzz: literally just type forkIO before your call of `sound` there :]
15:48:29	<zzz>	i only have experience with simple consurrency in imperative languages. zero experience with audio APIs
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15:49:00	<[exa]>	zzz: the problem there is that the program starts generating the sound, but never gets to actually drawing anything because you only have 1 thread
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15:50:06	<EvanR>	simple concurrency in imperative languages, sounds like a contradiction xD
15:50:14	<[exa]>	yeah
15:51:01	<zzz>	ha
15:51:15	<zzz>	[exa]: ok it's working
15:51:33	<[exa]>	lol really? cool
15:52:16	<[exa]>	I kinda wanted to start a dramatic narrative on how managing the pthreads is super complex and in haskell at least we have kinda safe abstract operation with the IO "fibers" above that
15:52:22	<[exa]>	but lo, it was simpler
15:53:43	<[exa]>	I guess the next problem will be to sync the threads properly, but that might be doable with a few shared IORefs for communication
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15:54:15	<zzz>	ok i need to read up on how to communicate with the thread now
15:56:23	<zzz>	drawing the waveforms was infinitely simpler than producing the sound
15:56:34	<zzz>	i would not expect that
15:56:46	<[exa]>	Gloss is good for this
15:56:52	<zzz>	yeah i blame gloss
15:57:10	<zzz>	we need Glass for audio :)
15:57:39	<[exa]>	btw there are some audio synth projects around that actually use gloss
15:57:54	<zzz>	are there?
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15:59:07	<[exa]>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/synthesizer-core -- environs of this thing might be good
15:59:59	<zzz>	i was exploring that
16:00:40	<zzz>	i mean, that's actually what i'm using
16:01:10	<zzz>	i need to close the 19 SDL tabs in my browser
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16:02:52	<Guest\|61>	hello
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16:04:17	<[exa]>	zzz: the "usual" workflow with SDL and others that each graphics frame you also generate a tiny piece of the sound buffer, typically using some library that remembers which sounds were just playing and from where. That should also work here (with playIO) but I'd say it might be better to simply keep the 2 threads separated and use some environment to communicate. The main API problem there would be to have
16:04:23	<[exa]>	the synthesizer react to results of IO actions (mainly readIORef)
16:04:27	<[exa]>	Guest\|61: well hello there
16:06:03	<zzz>	ok so rethinking all of this, what i should do is probably stream this, because that's what i'm using to draw the oscilloscope points https://paste.jrvieira.com/1679673953461
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16:08:35	<[exa]>	zzz: yeah, more like `x` and `y` should be made "global parameters" with the IORef
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16:09:05	<zzz>	they depend on input
16:09:06	<zzz>	wait
16:09:52	<azure_vermilion>	does ghc still do stream fusion or has something else replaced it? cos looking at the base library I can't see it
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16:10:24	<EvanR>	MVar instead of IORef would let you wait for the next "message", as well as polling if you wanted (like IORef)
16:10:45	<EvanR>	TVar would let you poll but magically causes it to block until polling would do anything differently
16:11:50	<[exa]>	EvanR: it's sound, no waiting
16:11:51	<davean>	So wakeup semantics is important.
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16:12:06	<zzz>	[exa]: https://jrvieira.com/static/liss.mp4
16:12:13	<zzz>	[exa]: https://jrvieira.com/static/lisss.mp4
16:12:23	<EvanR>	[exa], it's sound. You spend most of your time waiting for the sound to play xD
16:12:29	<EvanR>	but that's another thread
16:12:58	<EvanR>	44100 samples per second vs 4 GHz cpu
16:13:23	<davean>	well you don't have to wait, you can schedule.
16:13:25	<[exa]>	that's okay, unless the OS decides to nope
16:13:48	<davean>	But to schedule well you need priority inversion and such.
16:14:02	<davean>	or just be entirely scheduled
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16:14:08	<EvanR>	schedule is another way to say block. Unless you want to keep piling more and more audio buffer, which just would introduce egregious lag for an interactive thing
16:14:37	<[exa]>	azure_vermilion: tbh afaik they never "removed" anything like it and e.g. Text relies heavily on fusion; maybe you might check there
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16:16:54	<geekosaur>	most fusion shows as RULES pragmas, not as functions or etc.
16:20:45	<zzz>	just keep adding 's' to the name of the file in my url if you want more fun
16:21:01	<zzz>	it goes up to 10 s
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16:25:04	<[exa]>	zzz: no rickroll on the end :<
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16:27:24	<geekosaur>	not sure kids these days even remember that or its referent 🙂
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16:27:58	<zzz>	i think that era ended when rick astley himself was rickrolled by a random redditor
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16:28:34	<MacSlow>	Greetings everybody!
16:28:54	<[exa]>	o/
16:32:04	<byorgey>	hi MacSlow
16:32:31	<byorgey>	how's Haskell?
16:33:55	<MacSlow>	Very interesting... but still a bit odd when one comes from C/C++ land.
16:35:53	<EvanR>	something about how C is a purely functional language
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16:37:12	<zzz>	i just had a small heart attack when pulling stuff from github to my server
16:37:28	<zzz>	it turns out they changed their host key yesterday https://github.blog/2023-03-23-we-updated-our-rsa-ssh-host-key/
16:37:36	<zzz>	PSA
16:38:34	<MacSlow>	zzz: :) can imagine
16:39:08	<darkling>	We had to reconfigure our build servers this morning for that.
16:39:11	<MacSlow>	once forgot I updated keys on one of my servers... :)
16:39:43	<MacSlow>	that was a 'chilling' sensation until I remebered the key-update.
16:41:24	<[exa]>	imagine the meta-fun of pushing the privkeys to github when they are actually github keys.
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16:50:01	<geekosaur>	gleh, my known-hosts is the hashed format and I have to figure out how to delete the right hash(es)
16:50:46	<EvanR>	wasn't there a command to operate on the known-hosts file...
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16:51:39	<zzz>	i think ssh-keygen
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16:55:50	<geekosaur>	yeh, ssh-keygen -R github.com
16:56:22	<geekosaur>	(or -F in place of -R to see if/where it is_
16:56:26	<geekosaur>	)
16:57:56	<tomsmeding>	geekosaur: https://docs.github.com/en/authentication/keeping-your-account-and-data-secure/githubs-ssh-key-fingerprints
16:58:11	<tomsmeding>	remove all github.com entries and add those, I guess
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17:15:57	<geekosaur>	and then there's the ip address, sigh (decided to test it immediately)
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17:44:50	<MacSlow>	bbl
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18:16:40	<dminuoso>	Okay I would really like a unix socket proxy that can inject getpeername as a header.
18:17:19	<dminuoso>	Or a hook for warp that allows the same, after staring at warp for quite a while, I just dont see any ergonomical way to provide a hook that has a reasonable chance of getting accepted.
18:18:05	<dminuoso>	Unless it would be something very specific like `setPeernameHeader :: T.Text -> Settings -> Settings`
18:18:22	<dminuoso>	Or well, `Maybe T.Text -> Settings -> Settings` rather I suppose
18:18:28	<dminuoso>	Any thoughts?
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21:41:07	<Ashkan>	Hello Hello
21:41:07	<Ashkan>	I'm having difficulty with dearimgui bindings. I realised its not on stackage so I added it to the `extra-deps` in `stack.yaml` but `import DearImGui` throws an error (module not recognised) and I see its not added to my project `.cabal` file
21:41:54	<Ashkan>	every other package I added as a dependency I can find in the project `.cabal` file but this one
21:42:33	<geekosaur>	editing stack.yaml adds nothing to the cabal file. were you perhaps using package.yaml also?
21:44:09	<Ashkan>	geekosaur yes. there is a `package.yaml`
21:44:19	<geekosaur>	then you need to add it there as well
21:45:41	<Ashkan>	So add it both in `extra-deps` and in `package.yaml` ?
21:45:50	<geekosaur>	yes. they do different things
21:46:06	←	qp parts (~qp@user/qp) (WeeChat 3.8)
21:46:08	<geekosaur>	(it's a long story)
21:46:09	<Ashkan>	now I get this `Cabal-simple_SvXsv1f__3.6.3.0_ghc-9.2.5: The pkg-config package 'glew' is
21:46:09	<Ashkan>	dear-imgui > required but it could not be found.` some progress but then what is this `glew` ?
21:46:30	<Ashkan>	Build system in Haskell beats Scala's in crappiness:D
21:46:31	<geekosaur>	it's an external C or C++ library
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21:46:44	<Ashkan>	I see ... so install it on my OS ?
21:46:58	<geekosaur>	yes
21:47:13	<geekosaur>	apt-cache on my ubuntu system says libglew-dev
21:47:21	<geekosaur>	this will vary on other distributions
21:47:22	<Ashkan>	geekosaur like the good old C++ days (y)
21:47:36	<geekosaur>	exactly like, since it is those days
21:47:47	<Ashkan>	mine is a mac, most probably brew has got it
21:47:58	<geekosaur>	we don';t reimplement the whole world in Haskell, we use external C/C++/etc. libraries for things
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21:48:23	<mayanhavoc>	I'm trying to follow the Haskell Programming from First Principles book and I'm already stuck on the first chapter.
21:48:23	<mayanhavoc>	I'm trying to understand currying.
21:48:24	<mayanhavoc>	Could someone help me understand how you go from
21:48:24	<mayanhavoc>	(λxy.xxy)(λx.xy)(λx.xz)
21:48:25	<mayanhavoc>	to
21:48:25	<mayanhavoc>	(λxyz.xz(yz))(λmn.m)(λp.p).
21:48:26	<mayanhavoc>	I can work through the previous examples where you substituted z for x and then worked it out by replacing z for x in the body, but I don't understand why instead of replacing z for x, there are now three arguments in the first function and two in the second one.
21:48:26	<mayanhavoc>	I've tried writing it out but it just gets confusing:
21:48:27	<mayanhavoc>	(λx(λy.xxy)(λx.xxy)(λx.xz)
21:48:27	<mayanhavoc>	x:= (λx.xy)
21:48:28	<mayanhavoc>	(λy.(λx.xy)xy)(λx.xz)
21:48:28	<mayanhavoc>	y:=(λx.xz)
21:48:29	<mayanhavoc>	How do I go from here?
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21:50:29	<Ashkan>	mayanhavoc in `\xy.xxy` for example, the `x` and `y` are bound because they are named after the lambda symbol. You can replace them with anything you want as long as there is no confusion with the free variables. You understand so far ?
21:50:51	<mayanhavoc>	Ashkan Yup
21:51:01	<Ashkan>	So for all purposes `\xy.xxy` is exactly same as `\ab.aab`
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21:53:40	<Ashkan>	Okay, I'm actually looking at it and it looks more complicated than I first thought ... give me a min to figure this out. I'm in the second 3/th of the book myself so don't expect much from me:D
21:54:40	<mayanhavoc>	Ashkan no worries!
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21:56:04	<Ashkan>	Alright, next comes the application: `(\x.xy)(e) --> e` . Like a function call. You give it a name in your head `f(x) = xy` then call it with `e` so you have `f(e) = ey` so `(\x.xy)(e) -> ey` . Following so far ?
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21:57:30	<mayanhavoc>	Wait. So the application is (\x.xz)?
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21:57:53	<mayanhavoc>	Sorry, what I mean is, is (e) == (\x.xz)?
21:58:15	<Ashkan>	Eee ... no, `\x.xz` is an abstraction `f(x)=xz`
21:58:46	<Ashkan>	defined a function, anonymous function (has no name). To ease the understanding I give them names in my head like `f` here
21:59:43	<int-e>	Ashkan: I assume the missing `y` from `(\x.xy)(e) --> ey` was a typo?
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22:00:10	<Ashkan>	Again, IIUC, I have to say no. So an application is when you call the (anonymous) function with an actual argument. Lambda calculus doesn't have named functions so you can just say `f(e)`
22:00:57	<Ashkan>	They way you write an application is like this : (abstraction)(expression) which means "apply the expression (argument) to the abstraction (function)"
22:00:58	<mayanhavoc>	Ok ok
22:01:41	<Ashkan>	So when you see `(\x.something)(e)` it means "replace every `x` in `something` with `e`
22:01:47	<Ashkan>	So far good ?
22:01:57	<mayanhavoc>	Yes! So far I'm with you
22:02:00	<jade1024[m]>	yes
22:02:35	<mayanhavoc>	OOOHH... it's ey because only x is bound
22:03:50	<Ashkan>	Alright then. You now have all it takes to reduce the whole thing yourself:) only catch is this :
22:03:51	<Ashkan>	Sometimes the bound variables (function parameter names) appear a lot in totally unrelated expressions and if you just mechanically replace them with some value in the application, you then change the meaning of the expression in a wrong way
22:04:27	<Ashkan>	mayanhavoc Yes you got it. Because only `x` is the argument (is bound). Everything else is free and stays as is
22:05:24	<Ashkan>	So as I was saying, in order to prevent the application from messing up the expression, sometimes we need to first to a renameing of the bound variables. That's what you see with all the new names in the final results
22:07:01	<mayanhavoc>	Ok, but I still don't understand how you end up with a bound variable `z`. Is that the application of (\x.xy)(e)? And is (e) in this case representing (\x.xz)?
22:08:46	<Ashkan>	Lets do it together : `(λx.xy)(λx.xz)` means apply `\x.xz` to `\x.xy`
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22:10:38	<Ashkan>	now you see we have to totally unrelated lambdas, both having a bound `x` (totally unrelated to each other). You can say `(\a.az)(\b.by)` and it means exactly the same
22:10:58	<mayanhavoc>	Ahhh... ok
22:12:28	<Ashkan>	only one catch, I'm not sure about the associativity and it is important. Can change the meaning. For example `abc` could be `(ab)c` or `a(bc)`. I'm assuming the later but I'm actually thinking application is left-associative
22:13:09	<mayanhavoc>	Ok, that I'm pretty sure is correct. Function application is left associative
22:14:09	<Ashkan>	Yup just checked it. Its left associative. So we actually should have started with `(λxy.xxy)(λx.xy)`
22:14:32	<mauke>	(page 8)
22:15:08	<Ashkan>	`(\ab.aab)(\c.cy)` you understand the equivalence ?
22:15:31	<mayanhavoc>	Correct, just changing letters so it's not confusing right?
22:15:36	<Ashkan>	yes
22:15:37	<mauke>	also, as far as I can tell, the first two terms you were asking about have nothing to do with each other
22:15:59	<Ashkan>	note the first `y` got changed because it was bound. The second `y` was not so it sayed.
22:16:45	<mayanhavoc>	Right!!! Ok, I follow you
22:16:52	<Ashkan>	now `\ab.aab` has two arguments. Its `\a.\b.aab` this is just currying
22:16:56	<Ashkan>	Good ?
22:17:07	<mayanhavoc>	Good!
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22:18:01	<Ashkan>	this currying is important because when you want to do the application, you replace the outermost argument (`a` here, not the `b`)
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22:20:06	<Ashkan>	so `f (a, b) = aab`, compute `f(\c.cy)` so this is in fact a higher order function application. You should replace the first argument with a value which is itself an abstraction
22:20:13	<Ashkan>	Can you do it ?
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22:22:29	<mayanhavoc>	Ok, here is where I start getting lost. Would this be: ` (\c.cy, b) = aab`?
22:22:46	<Ashkan>	Nope:)
22:23:04	<Ashkan>	in the `aab`, replace the `a`s with the `\c.cy`
22:23:32	<Ashkan>	`(\c.cy)(\c.cy)b`
22:23:39	<mayanhavoc>	Ok, so more like \b = (\c.cy)(\c.cy)b?
22:23:45	<Ashkan>	perfect
22:23:50	<Ashkan>	do you understand why ?
22:23:50	<mayanhavoc>	Ok ok
22:24:42	<mayanhavoc>	Yes, because we are replacing c.cy for a, we remove the a. Sort of like 'b' in terms of 'a'?
22:25:47	<Ashkan>	We are applying `\c.cy` to `\ab.aab` which means to call it with first argument = `\c.cy`
22:26:27	<mayanhavoc>	Ok, I'm getting it, I promise
22:26:41	<Ashkan>	Give the `\c.cy` its own name, like `Z`. Now apply this `Z` to `\ab.aab`. Its `\b.ZZb` now expand `Z`
22:27:05	<Ashkan>	okay
22:27:16	<Ashkan>	now we have `(\c.cy)(\c.cy)b`
22:27:24	<mayanhavoc>	Correct
22:28:04	<Ashkan>	again we are in the same situation as before , with the associatively :
22:28:04	<Ashkan>	`((\c.cy)(\c.cy))b`
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22:28:31	<Ashkan>	so first do the `(\c.cy)(\c.cy)`
22:29:45	<Ashkan>	rename to avoid confusion : `(\a.ay)(\b.by)` --> `(\b.by)y` --> `yy`
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22:32:39	<EvanR>	I'm a number not a name
22:32:55	<mayanhavoc>	Just a sec, I'm trying to figure this out
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22:33:15	<int-e>	EvanR: you'll love de Bruijn indices then
22:33:32	<EvanR>	(1 y)(1 y) => (1 y) y
22:33:45	<int-e>	EvanR: you still need the lambdas though
22:33:55	<EvanR>	nah it's obvious xD
22:34:01	<int-e>	\\1 is different from \1
22:34:12	<EvanR>	fine
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22:35:23	<mayanhavoc>	Ok, so IIUC... (\a.ay) and (\b.by) are identity functions, so applying (\b.by) to (\a.ay) gives you \b.by. Right?
22:35:57	<EvanR>	(\a . a y) x = x y which is not x necessarily
22:36:03	<Ashkan>	Err identity function is `\x.x`
22:36:23	<Ashkan>	'\x.xy` is most definitely not identity
22:36:57	<EvanR>	id x = x
22:37:10	<EvanR>	what x = what
22:37:22	<int-e>	It makes no real difference here, but "applying (\b.by) to (\a.ay)" means (\b.by)(\a.ay)
22:37:35	<Ashkan>	For example apply `1` to `\a.ay` , its `1y` which is not the same as `1`
22:38:03	<int-e>	(You apply a function to its argument.)
22:38:09	<EvanR>	apply x to y = apply y to x? xD
22:38:36	<EvanR>	that'd be quite an equivocation
22:38:39	<int-e>	EvanR: Maybe if it applies to oranges. (Does that pun work?)
22:39:02	<Ashkan>	Yes my wording was confusing. Apply `\a.ay` to `1`
22:39:59	<Ashkan>	Anywasy, `(\a.ay)(\b.by)` means "replace `a` with `\b.by`"
22:40:11	<int-e>	(in `ay`)
22:40:28	<Ashkan>	in `ay` , yes:)
22:40:59	<mayanhavoc>	Ok... so what confuses me here is why is (\a.ay)(\b.by) not (\b(\b.by))y?
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22:41:27	<int-e>	(\x.M[x])N -> M[N] -- usually with the restriction that no free variables of N are bound in M, though there are weaker versions.
22:41:38	<int-e>	mayanhavoc: the lambda is "consumed" by the beta step.
22:42:04	<int-e>	Actually
22:42:18	<int-e>	mayanhavoc: I should ask where the first \b in the result comes from.
22:42:26	<Ashkan>	first `\b.\b. anything` would be wrong since two arguments are named the same. Can'y have different bound variables with the same nme
22:42:50	<mayanhavoc>	int-e How do you mean? I thought by replacing (\b.by) for the 'a' in (\a.ay), you get rid of the `\a`? No?
22:43:02	<Ashkan>	You did
22:43:17	<mayanhavoc>	Ashkan So, how do you replace \b.by in \a.ay?
22:43:31	<int-e>	mayanhavoc: Yes, the first \a disappears; the replacement only happens in the body of the abstraction, `ay`.
22:43:41	<Ashkan>	you got rid of both the `\a.` part (the abstraction) and the `a`s in the body
22:43:58	<mayanhavoc>	OHHHHHH
22:44:22	<int-e>	So you replace `a` in `ay` by `(\b.by)`, resulting in (\b.by)y. Which allows another beta step.
22:44:57	<Ashkan>	when you call `f(x) = x + 1` like `f(2)` you are removing both the `f(x) =` and `x` in `x + 1` by replacing it with `2`
22:45:28	<mayanhavoc>	Yes, I understand. Sorry, I have a hard time with abstraction
22:45:38	<Ashkan>	so `f(2) = 2 + 1` , no more arguments
22:45:56	<int-e>	Ashkan: Hmm, I don't think I've ever seen anyone forbid `\a.\a.ab` (the a in `ab` would simply refer to the inner lambda)
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22:46:57	<int-e>	Though, of course, I wouldn't go out of my way to write terms like this when explaining how the lambda-calculus works.
22:47:11	<Ashkan>	int-e in your example its clear they are different variables
22:47:30	<Ashkan>	`\a.\a.aa`
22:47:38	<EvanR>	first a is shadowed in \a.\a.aa
22:48:05	<int-e>	\a.\a.aa means \a.(\a.aa) by convention (lambdas extend as far to the right as possible)
22:48:39	<int-e>	so both those bound `a`s are tied to the inner lambda. \a.(\a.a)a would be different.
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22:49:03	<Ashkan>	EvanR that's one way to disambiguate it but to my knowledge lambda calculus itself doesn't have shadowing. That's something programming languages have. I might be wrong though ! don't wanna get into academics on this
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22:49:33	<EvanR>	it's not like were going to discover a cosmic truth here, it's all made up
22:49:35	<int-e>	anyway, this is a tangent, it has nothing to do with reducing (\a.ay)(\b.by).
22:49:48	<Ashkan>	yeah
22:50:27	<Ashkan>	mayanhavoc left the class room:D
22:51:19	<mayanhavoc>	No, no, I'm still here
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22:52:28	<Ashkan>	I have to go deal with own problem, leave you to the very capable hands of people here. Just don't let them trick you into converting to De Bruijn indices:D
22:52:52	<int-e>	b-but... numbers!
22:53:09	<mayanhavoc>	Ashkan thank you very much, I really appreciate your help
22:53:18	<Ashkan>	I would say first make sure you have a firm grasp of the abstraction
22:53:20	<int-e>	(No, you first have to experience the pain of alpha-renamings before de Bruijn indices have any hope of making sense.)
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22:54:20	<int-e>	And really, de Bruijn indices are for computers.
22:54:24	<Ashkan>	mayanhavoc I have a lot of debt to give back. You are most welcome. Welcome to the tribe by the way. You literally picked the longest, most boring book on Haskell:D
22:54:25	<EvanR>	to reduce (\a.whatever) e, the answer is whatever with all free a replaced with e (perhaps after renaming inappropriately interfering variables)
22:54:29	<EvanR>	simple
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22:55:18	<mayanhavoc>	Ashkan Hahahaha Thank you for the welcome! I am honestly happily suffering through it
22:55:21	<EvanR>	one day they will make a computer chip that can do this operation more efficiently
22:55:50	<int-e>	hahaha
22:56:03	<mayanhavoc>	EvanR wait... isn't a bound in this example?
22:56:26	<int-e>	mayanhavoc: what's bound in \a.M may be free in M.
22:56:30	<EvanR>	it is bound in (\a.whatever) but in whatever by itself those a are not bound anymore
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22:56:56	<int-e>	`a` is bound in `\a.a` but is free in `a`.
22:57:00	<Ashkan>	mayanhavoc Also keep in mind some of the examples are intentionally contrived. More so due that twisted sense of "this is important !" which is characteristic of academic people. Its not like you gotta deal with such absurdities in your real world Haskell
22:57:54	<int-e>	mayanhavoc: consider this: (\a.a(\a.a))y -> y(\a.a) ... the innermost `a` is still bound in a(\a.a), so it's not replaced.
22:57:57	<EvanR>	substituting arguments where the bound variables are is a great way to understand haskell code
22:58:10	<EvanR>	thanks to purity
22:58:19	<mayanhavoc>	Hahahaha I really, really hope so! I'm really trying to practice and understand what I'm doing in the hopes that my mind will get used to all this abstraction
22:58:55	<EvanR>	substitution is pretty simple and intuitive on the face of it. And then it ends up being complicated if you define it precisely
22:59:21	<mayanhavoc>	int-e oh man... i'm going to need a second for that one
22:59:59	<int-e>	mayanhavoc: You'll probably need days to weeks to really become used to this. I know I did.
23:00:26	<mayanhavoc>	int-e that's really good to hear, I'm literally sweating over here trying to not get lost
23:00:44	<EvanR>	to understand the binding structure of (\a.a(\a.a)) you could write it down with colored pencils, write all the a bound by the same lambda in one color
23:01:03	<EvanR>	enable IRC colors for the channel!
23:01:11	<int-e>	eww
23:01:14	<EvanR>	lol
23:01:23	<int-e>	(it's okay, I just won't see them)
23:01:36	<mayanhavoc>	EvanR thank you! That's a great idea!
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23:02:22	<int-e>	you can do alpha-renaming instead too; (\a.a(\a.a)) is alpha-equivalent to (\a.a(\b.b))
23:02:37	<EvanR>	(\red.red(\blue.blue))
23:02:55	<int-e>	one lambda, two lambdas, red lambda, blue lambda.
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23:04:26	<mayanhavoc>	so (\red.red(\blue.blue)) \blue(\blue.blue) right?
23:05:00	<int-e>	not sure what that means
23:05:17	<int-e>	if those are two separate terms, they're not equivalent
23:05:18	<EvanR>	having \blue(\blue.blue) kind of defeats the purpose
23:05:29	<EvanR>	should be different colors
23:07:24	<EvanR>	and while you do that color game, write free variables in normal pencil to indicate there's no lambda for it
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23:09:56	<mayanhavoc>	Ok... I'm going to go try practice this, see if I can make it make sense. Thank you so much for the help!!
23:10:11	<int-e>	EvanR: there are many shades of blue
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23:11:56	<EvanR>	https://i.imgur.com/9VXbiUS.png drat too late
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23:20:41	<int-e>	EvanR: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/blue.png
23:22:30	<EvanR>	that's why you can store infinite information in the spin of an electron. aup + bdown where a (or b) are reals (complex)
23:23:02	<EvanR>	keep subdividing until you have enough megabits
23:23:13	<int-e>	That's just fairies dancing on a pin.
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23:24:44	<EvanR>	something something James Burke Connections about the smallest noticable difference
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All times are in UTC on 2023-03-24.