Logs on 2023-03-27 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 08:01:01 | <mastarija> | Is there a matrix library that has the "non negative least squares" solver implemented? |
| 08:02:27 | <mastarija> | HMatrix has `linearSolveLS`, but not the non negative version. |
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| 08:13:03 | <JensPetersen[m]> | Can I have `Monoid a => Bool -> a -> a` |
| 08:13:54 | <opqdonut> | :t \b x -> if b then mappend x x else x |
| 08:13:55 | <lambdabot> | Monoid p => Bool -> p -> p |
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| 08:14:49 | <JensPetersen[m]> | okay was thinking of if b then a else mempty or something like that |
| 08:15:11 | <JensPetersen[m]> | I only see it in utility-ht |
| 08:15:27 | <dminuoso> | JensPetersen[m]: mwhen is something I frequently write in programs |
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| 08:15:36 | <dminuoso> | I think the case could be made to add it to base. |
| 08:15:54 | <dminuoso> | I frequent discussions with others, I think it would be a useful primitive to have. |
| 08:15:58 | <dminuoso> | s/I/In/ |
| 08:16:19 | <JensPetersen[m]> | I agree, surely it is a common idiom |
| 08:16:20 | <JensPetersen[m]> | +1 |
| 08:16:27 | <JensPetersen[m]> | I like your naming :-) |
| 08:16:53 | <JensPetersen[m]> | How about proposing it? 😃 |
| 08:17:24 | <dminuoso> | I dont have the energy to argue with the folks that will debate about the Fairbairn threshold of it. |
| 08:17:37 | <dminuoso> | Given that I dont mind writing it on the spot, it does not major affect me personally |
| 08:18:10 | <JensPetersen[m]> | dminuoso: lol, okay I might use it for my "annual" attempt to get something added... ;o) |
| 08:18:18 | <JensPetersen[m]> | Okay |
| 08:19:00 | <dminuoso> | That said, should you make the proposal I will definitely weigh in |
| 08:19:06 | <JensPetersen[m]> | At least can watch the bikeshedding 🍿😂 |
| 08:19:16 | <JensPetersen[m]> | Okay I may try hehe |
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| 08:21:05 | <JensPetersen[m]> | Errr, does it go to CLC or somewhere else I am trying to remember/work out? |
| 08:21:51 | <dminuoso> | JensPetersen[m]: Pretty sure it goes to CLC indeed. |
| 08:22:11 | <JensPetersen[m]> | okay thanks! |
| 08:23:36 | <Hecate> | JensPetersen[m]: to be honest I'd first try and get it added to `extra` |
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| 08:24:12 | <JensPetersen[m]> | That is certainly easier hehe, and I use it |
| 08:24:33 | <JensPetersen[m]> | Not a bad idea indeed and less stressful ;o) |
| 08:24:45 | <Hecate> | JensPetersen[m]: :) |
| 08:25:09 | <JensPetersen[m]> | Is there a route from extra to base? :-) |
| 08:25:33 | <Hecate> | JensPetersen[m]: when it's absolutely become clear that not only application authors but library authors will need it |
| 08:25:36 | <JensPetersen[m]> | Personally if it is in extra, that is probably enough for me that, but I feel it is handy idiom |
| 08:25:45 | <JensPetersen[m]> | okay |
| 08:26:02 | <Hecate> | it does but also it's an if/then/else, not sure if the overhead of putting it into base is worth your time tbh |
| 08:26:25 | <Hecate> | and don't mis-understand me, I've written that if/then/else many times myself :) |
| 08:26:35 | <Hecate> | you'll find a better public in `extra` |
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| 08:38:27 | <merijn> | I don't think the monoid think is under the fairbairn threshold, tbh |
| 08:38:34 | <merijn> | the biggest issue is "coming up with a good name" |
| 08:38:47 | <merijn> | which is the main reason I haven't campaigned for it in base yet |
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| 08:39:31 | <JensPetersen[m]> | mwhen seems okay? |
| 08:39:31 | <JensPetersen[m]> | Anyway: https://github.com/ndmitchell/extra/issues/102 |
| 08:39:32 | <JensPetersen[m]> | not sure if I am convincing enough but... |
| 08:39:44 | <JensPetersen[m]> | (I couldn't think of a name either, so... ;o) |
| 08:40:39 | <merijn> | mwhen seems to imply monadplus (mplus, mzero, etc.) although I suppose mappend/mempty already associate m with monoid too.. |
| 08:40:46 | <merijn> | I've use mif a few times too |
| 08:41:02 | <JensPetersen[m]> | Though we do have new CLC members now... hehe :-) |
| 08:41:08 | <JensPetersen[m]> | mif could work |
| 08:41:23 | <JensPetersen[m]> | then it is a bit terse |
| 08:41:28 | <JensPetersen[m]> | s/then/though/ |
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| 08:44:00 | <JensPetersen[m]> | Not sure where it should live in extra though: need Data.Monoid.Extra? |
| 08:45:20 | <JensPetersen[m]> | Personally I could even live with it in Data.List.Extra ;o) |
| 08:45:22 | <JensPetersen[m]> | * in Data.List.Extra for now ;o) |
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| 08:47:45 | <mauke> | :t replicate |
| 08:47:47 | <lambdabot> | Int -> a -> [a] |
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| 08:48:13 | <mauke> | :t \n x -> mconcat (replicate n x) |
| 08:48:14 | <lambdabot> | Monoid a => Int -> a -> a |
| 08:48:25 | <mauke> | :t \n x -> mconcat (replicate (fromEnum n) x) |
| 08:48:27 | <lambdabot> | (Monoid a1, Enum a2) => a2 -> a1 -> a1 |
| 08:48:48 | <mauke> | :t (\n x -> mconcat (replicate (fromEnum n) x)) :: Monoid a => Bool -> a -> a |
| 08:48:49 | <lambdabot> | Monoid a => Bool -> a -> a |
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| 10:35:30 | <gensyst> | davean, yesterday i sort of dismissed your idea about going for haskell.nix |
| 10:35:43 | <gensyst> | I thought that was only for "complex" projects |
| 10:35:58 | <gensyst> | and that most ppl would be better off starting with haskellPackages, gonzales tutorial, etc. |
| 10:36:15 | <gensyst> | But now I just saw another person recommending also haskell.nix |
| 10:36:18 | <gensyst> | https://discourse.nixos.org/t/nix-haskell-development-2020/6170/2 |
| 10:36:30 | <gensyst> | Quote: "Most non-trivial projects are now using haskell.nix. |
| 10:36:30 | <gensyst> | haskell.nix has a couple annoying points, but it seems like it will be the way forward for doing Haskell development using nix." |
| 10:36:35 | <gensyst> | What do you guys here think? |
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| 10:47:03 | <kuribas> | idk, you can use docker if you want to be more mainstream. |
| 10:50:03 | <kuribas> | I've been using cabal just fine. |
| 10:50:32 | <kuribas> | I guess nix is great also, I never used it. But cabal works good enough for me. |
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| 11:02:19 | <jackdk> | I use nixpkgs if: I don't need to do anything fancy and/or I want to avoid IFD; I use haskell.nix if I want to cross-compile or build static binaries via musl |
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| 11:19:45 | <gensyst> | jackdk, what confuses me a bit is, that's how YOU use nix/haskell. So what sort of a shell.nix or default.nix should be inside a Haskell project's repo? |
| 11:20:10 | <gensyst> | Because what are the chances that the shell.nix/default.nix the developer added there (used by themselves) are suitable for my workflow? |
| 11:23:23 | <jackdk> | *shrug* - I think the only workflow that should be provided in the shell/default/flake.nix of a public repo is the one for the development of that repo itself. It is impossible to be all thing to all people, so don't bother. Generally, I set up devShells and hydraJobs for the package and nothing else. one exception I had: a package with an example project that deployed to AWS Lambda. There, I needed static musl builds, and there I used haskell.nix |
| 11:23:57 | <jackdk> | also, both nixpkgs haskellPackages and haskell.nix use hackage as their source of truth, so I'd rather publish to hackage and let those tools pick it up that way |
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| 11:32:05 | <gensyst> | jackdk, thanks for info |
| 11:32:07 | <gensyst> | the* |
| 11:35:21 | <dminuoso> | gensyst: Ive been using haskell.nix for a while |
| 11:35:29 | <dminuoso> | and while there's a bunch of complexity issues and costs attached to it |
| 11:35:33 | <dminuoso> | Overlal it greatly simplifies things. |
| 11:36:02 | <dminuoso> | The most charming of all is perhaps how simple it is to do a cross, say a static musl buil;d. |
| 11:36:12 | <dminuoso> | (Which is the original reason I switched to haskell.nix) |
| 11:37:51 | <jackdk> | yes, the haskell.nix crosscompilation story feels magical |
| 11:38:25 | <gensyst> | dminuoso, jackdk haskellPackages looks more popular out there though still.. is that because most people don't need cross-comp ? |
| 11:38:28 | <gensyst> | or just laziness? |
| 11:38:28 | <dminuoso> | The real downside I see mostly, is that you really want your own CI and cache probably. |
| 11:38:45 | <jackdk> | dminuoso: definitely, especially with the recent spottiness of the IOG cache |
| 11:39:37 | <dminuoso> | gensyst: I dont think its a proper comparison. |
| 11:39:43 | <jackdk> | gensyst: if I'm just hacking on a middle-of-the-road haskell package, I don't need crosscomp in my dev environment. That can be written separately in deploy scripts or wherever else |
| 11:39:49 | <dminuoso> | gensyst: haskellPackages is what nixpkgs provides as a kind of stackage clone. |
| 11:39:57 | <dminuoso> | Its not really something where people "stuff their packages into" |
| 11:40:18 | <dminuoso> | Its just that packages autoamtically arive in there if (roughly speaking) they are tracked in stackage. |
| 11:40:23 | <dminuoso> | fsvo "automatic" |
| 11:40:56 | <dminuoso> | My main beef with the nixpkgs build infrastructure, is that its based upon thousands of lines of completely undocumented nix expressions. |
| 11:41:01 | <dminuoso> | They have neither internal not external documentation |
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| 11:41:08 | <dminuoso> | haskell.nix is very thoroughly documented |
| 11:42:14 | <dminuoso> | Say you want to use callCabal2 nix and override something in a cabal file. How do you do that? Enjoy reverse engineering thousands lines of nix code to figure out what options are accepted, what they do and what they are fed into. |
| 11:42:36 | <dminuoso> | There's neither official documentation on that interface, nor third party documentation. |
| 11:42:55 | <dminuoso> | So really compare callCabal2nix maybe with haskell.nix to fairness |
| 11:43:08 | <dminuoso> | And whether callCabal2nix is more popular I cannot say, I dont think there exists good data on it. |
| 11:44:03 | <dminuoso> | And then you have the real issue that the entirety of that infrastructure is relying on one or two people manually curating build plans all day long |
| 11:44:08 | <dminuoso> | Pretty much duplicating stackage work. |
| 11:44:16 | <dminuoso> | Currently its maralorn and maybe someone else? |
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| 11:47:15 | <gensyst> | What a sad state of things |
| 11:47:30 | <jackdk> | developPackage has decent docs but it's all in comments in make-package-set.nix |
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| 11:54:55 | <maralorn> | Yeah, it's me and roughly two or three other people. Although we didn't come up with it we are mainly maintaining and slowly try to improve on things. |
| 11:58:03 | <maralorn> | The claim that there are no comments and no docs is plainly wrong. Of course it can always be better and it should be better. But the characterisation that this is a lost cause is misleading imo. The unstable nixpkgs manual actually has a surprisingly helpful section on the Haskell tooling. |
| 11:58:29 | <dminuoso> | maralorn: perhaps it has improved over the past 6 months then *shrugs* |
| 11:58:46 | <dminuoso> | The last time I was looking, the documentation was in an incredibly poor state who does not understand the internals. |
| 11:59:31 | <kenran> | I gotta second maralorn on this ^ When I started using it, it was nearly impossible to understand what was going on, especially when not veeery familiar with Nix. Whenever I point people at it now, or look through the compose.nix library, there are mostly well-documented utility functions. Ofc there are still dark places, but I can really "feel" it improving |
| 12:00:30 | <kenran> | dminuoso: but I also feel your pain especially w.r.t. callCabal2nix ... I was in the trenches there once or twice as well. Don't know what the current state there is |
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| 12:01:49 | <dminuoso> | The state of documentation is incredibly poor. Just look at the haskell.nix lib page. |
| 12:02:14 | <dminuoso> | I may be a bit harsh, but I think nix folks have largely been desensitized to a state of zen when it comes to documentation. |
| 12:02:48 | <maralorn> | Also I just grepped. The Haskell part in nixpkgs contains at least 2000 lines of comments. |
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| 12:05:51 | <maralorn> | But yeah, there is a lot of baggage there. I mean all of us maintainers got in there because somehow someone needs to keep the show running. Not because we thought, uh, nice, legacy code I wanna spend my weekends writing docs... |
| 12:06:13 | <dminuoso> | maralorn: I dont mean this as a personal attack. I know its a lot of effort and the result of people donating their free time. |
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| 12:08:15 | <maralorn> | dminuoso: I totally understand where you are coming from. I myself have been writing rants about the state of things and the incomprehensibility of the tooling before I got so deep into it that I got used to it. |
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| 12:08:42 | <dminuoso> | maralorn: Have you seen https://input-output-hk.github.io/haskell.nix/reference/library.html ? |
| 12:09:08 | <dminuoso> | If we could get that kind of documentation quality on the nixpkgs interfaces, that'd be lovely |
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| 12:10:03 | <maralorn> | Yeah |
| 12:10:10 | <maralorn> | I agree. |
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| 12:12:01 | <maralorn> | There are a few people working on better nixpkgs docs. |
| 12:12:24 | <gensyst> | maralorn, might be good to gear it towards flake (the future)? |
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| 12:12:29 | <gensyst> | (from the very outset) |
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| 12:13:38 | <maralorn> | gensyst: I don't think that flakes or not flakes makes a big difference for 90% of the docs. |
| 12:14:30 | <maralorn> | Sounds a bit like let's rewrite the Python reference from a pypi point of view. |
| 12:16:47 | <maralorn> | Honestly for the docs issue it's mostly about tooling at this point. Currently they are terrible to navigate. And we need better generation from code comments. Nix has nothing like haddock. |
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| 12:18:54 | <maralorn> | <maralorn> "There are a few people working..." <- But somehow most people feel like the problem is that we need quickstart tutorial with questionable design choices #217 instead of one well maintained and reliable reference... |
| 12:19:51 | <mauke> | oh hey, is github down? |
| 12:20:43 | <maralorn> | mauke: Seems so. |
| 12:22:13 | <gensyst> | maralorn, grateful for your efforts |
| 12:22:16 | <gensyst> | yeah here too it's down |
| 12:26:10 | <mauke> | it's somewhat back up? |
| 12:26:15 | <mauke> | but internal endpoints return 500 |
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| 12:45:31 | <merijn> | maralorn: I don't think cabal's docs are great, but tbh I don't think they're terrible either. So out of curiosity, do you have any example of something like cabal/cargo/pip/whatever that (according to you) has adequate documentation? |
| 12:46:08 | <merijn> | maralorn: because a lot of the times people act as if it is obvious what's bad about the tool documentation, but I'm not really sure what "better" looks like |
| 12:48:22 | <maralorn> | merijn: I was not really the one pushing the point that nix docs are terrible. But I have very concrete points in mind where they should be better imo completely independent of whether other porjects do that or not. |
| 12:50:10 | <maralorn> | If I accidentally criticised cabal docs then that was a typo. I didn't intend to talk about cabal at all. |
| 12:51:46 | <maralorn> | Example: the nixpkgs manual currently has a very bad table of contents every documentation living on read the docs does it better. |
| 12:53:28 | <maralorn> | Still feel though that your critique probably was more geared towards dminuoso . |
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| 13:00:22 | <merijn> | maralorn: Ah, I missed the preceding discussion, so I assume "tools" refered to haskell, not nix :) |
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| 13:33:02 | <dminuoso> | merijn: But yeah, I mean you *can* find most things in the cabal documentation at least. |
| 13:33:22 | <dminuoso> | And if you have some basic understanding, you generally have a good idea how to find it. |
| 13:33:29 | <dminuoso> | For newcomers its probably very difficult |
| 13:33:43 | <dminuoso> | But that goes into documentation writing, and how often that is done by professional teams. |
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| 13:35:52 | <ddellacosta> | yeah I love nix but the docs are bad. And unfortunately the Haskell infra adds a layer of complexity on top that is even more poorly documented. Says something that I use it anyways |
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| 13:41:49 | <merijn> | You know what library is dramatically underrated? |
| 13:41:56 | <merijn> | tree-diff |
| 13:42:10 | <dminuoso> | tree-diff is great indeed |
| 13:42:13 | <merijn> | The number of times I've wished for this library in other languages is into the thousands now |
| 13:42:34 | <merijn> | (this thought brought to you by "me missing tree-diff") |
| 13:42:35 | <dminuoso> | I think one of the things haskellers excel at, is writing extremely simple and generalized libraries. |
| 13:42:56 | <dminuoso> | At times it can be a bit overwhelming when starting at the kmettiverse. |
| 13:43:32 | <merijn> | It just tickles my "solves one problem really well" sensibilities |
| 13:43:46 | <dminuoso> | Well, it *is* one problem really well. |
| 13:45:32 | <merijn> | dminuoso: I mean that most libraries try to solve to many issues at once or they don't quite solve it and you still have to manually do things or whatever |
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| 13:50:16 | <nshepperd2> | i like binary-search |
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| 13:54:06 | <MacSlow> | Greetings everyone! |
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| 14:20:14 | <kenran> | I keep running into that GHC crash with mmap... it's so annoying grrrr |
| 14:21:07 | <merijn> | kenran: I forgot what was going on, remind me |
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| 14:32:43 | <kenran> | merijn: it's this one: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=282429 |
| 14:33:18 | <kenran> | (I'm too lazy to find out how to patch my kernel; I'm on 6.2.7 and have lived with this bug since 6.1.1) |
| 14:34:30 | <merijn> | kenran: I don't suppose you're particularly comfortable debugging C? :p |
| 14:35:48 | <merijn> | hmm, I guess you'd need to build your own GHC to enable -debug inside GHC |
| 14:36:11 | <geekosaur> | the bug alreqdy has a hotfix which is linked at the end of that thread |
| 14:36:22 | <geekosaur> | it hasn't reached mainline yet |
| 14:36:32 | <geekosaur> | https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/akpm/mm.git/commit/?h=mm-hotfixes-unstable&id=aa4ec634c24aa2ff24025ed1de763e079a7ea480 |
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| 14:37:12 | <geekosaur> | (this came up a few days ago, including a hacky LD_PRELOAD to work around it) |
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| 14:39:01 | <merijn> | So it's a linux bug, not a GHC bug. Nice. |
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| 14:39:59 | <geekosaur> | yes. they introduced a fancy new memory allocator in 6.1 and it's buggy |
| 14:40:04 | <geekosaur> | "maple trees" |
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| 14:49:41 | <gensyst> | maralorn, merijn, mauke, dminuoso, jackdk You might find this interesting: https://discourse.nixos.org/t/nix-haskell-development-2020/6170/28 |
| 14:49:55 | <gensyst> | TLDR a lot has changed in just 3 years in favor of haskellPackages, not just in functionality but also people moving back. (What I find a bit sad is you have to go on some forums (one of many), find some obscure knowledgeable bloke, and poke the info out of him lol. Otherwise all this info is just hidden.) |
| 14:50:16 | <merijn> | I doubt I find it interesting, as I don't use nix :p |
| 14:50:22 | <gensyst> | sorry lol |
| 14:52:01 | <SrPx> | is there a linear algorithm to reverse the indices of elements in a binary tree by just doing rotations (no indexing/cloning)? i.e., if an element is on index 0b1100, it is moved to 0b0011? e.g., ((((0 1) (2 3)) ((4 5) (6 7))) (((8 9) (A B)) ((C D) (E F)))) becomes (((((0 8) (4 C)) ((2 A) (6 E))) (((1 9) (5 D)) ((3 B) (7 F))))) |
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| 15:01:14 | <geekosaur> | the LD_PRELOAD hack to make ghc work with kernel 6.1+ is http://paste.debian.net/1274454/ |
| 15:01:41 | <geekosaur> | also apparently ghc 9.4 and later work with the newer kernels because they changed how they invoke `mmap` in a way that avoids the kernel bugs |
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| 15:14:54 | <kenran> | geekosaur: merijn: yeah, I meant the hotfix when I meant I'd need to patch my kernel. Should theoretically be easy enough with Nix, but I'm already kinda breaking down under heavy load at work atm, so I haven't got the time to fiddle around with that :( |
| 15:15:46 | <kenran> | Oh how I'd also love to finally lift to project from 8.10 to 9.0 (at least) :D |
| 15:15:59 | <kenran> | the* |
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| 16:18:07 | <Solid> | is there anyone I can reasonably pester (besides the dev) to get a revbump on a package on Hackage? |
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| 16:26:11 | <geekosaur> | if it's just a bounds change you can request an update from the hackage trustees, but they prefer the maintainer(s) do it |
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| 16:31:51 | <geekosaur> | also if this is about setlocale and the maintainer hasn't been responding, there's an argument to be made for our taking it over like we did the original X11 package |
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| 16:34:06 | <Solid> | it is about setlocale yes |
| 16:34:45 | <Solid> | the maintainer was unresponsive for the last revbump, so I didn't bother beyond a comment on their gitlab ( https://gitlab.com/Kritzefitz/haskell-setlocale/-/issues/3 ) |
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| 16:41:11 | <kritzefitz> | Oh, did I miss another revbump? |
| 16:41:20 | <kritzefitz> | Sorry for that. |
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| 16:42:33 | <kritzefitz> | So is this only about GHC 9.4 (i.e. base 4.17) was anyone requesting another revbump? |
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| 16:44:41 | <Solid> | kritzefitz: yes, GHC 9.6 is now similarly broken as 9.4 was in that issue (see the last comment) |
| 16:45:01 | <Solid> | oh, I just realised that's your repo :) |
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| 16:45:55 | <kritzefitz> | Apparently I gotta check my email settings on gitlab, because I hadn't received an email about your comment. |
| 16:46:36 | <kritzefitz> | I'm afraid I don't have time to test building setlocale with GHC 9.6 today. Did anyone test it successfully? In that case I would just do the revbump later in the evening. |
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| 16:48:20 | <kritzefitz> | Also, if somebody else is willing to maintain setlocale, I'd be willing to give over maintainership or accept co-maintainers. |
| 16:50:22 | <Solid> | Well, sorry for not trying harder to reach out, then! We have a report ( https://github.com/xmonad/xmonad/issues/443 ) that says xmonad (which has setlocale as a dependency) builds just fine when ignoring bounds on base |
| 16:50:33 | <Solid> | I'll spin up a nix shell to confirm |
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| 18:14:28 | <Solid> | kritzefitz: I can confirm that with `cabal build --allow-newer=base` runs without issues |
| 18:15:50 | <kritzefitz> | Solid: thanks, I'll do the bump once I'm at my workstation later today. |
| 18:18:20 | <Solid> | fantastic, thanks! |
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| 21:52:23 | <kritzefitz> | Solid: New revision is published. |
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| 21:54:41 | <geekosaur> | 👍 |
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