Logs on 2023-03-31 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:59:38 | <tusko> | I mean, honestly, how many people are going through life thinking git == GitHub |
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| 01:03:23 | <yin> | tusko: probably the same ammount that thought irc == mIRC in the 90s |
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| 01:05:04 | <monochrom> | Are we done complaining about all perceived injustice in the world? |
| 01:06:14 | <yin> | oh i think it's totally fair |
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| 01:07:10 | <davean> | Was there a conversation about injustice I missed? |
| 01:07:27 | <tusko> | wtf is the 90s? |
| 01:07:38 | <yin> | tusko: 10 years ago |
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| 01:08:58 | <tusko> | back in the day when a unit of currency bought more than a litre of petro |
| 01:09:18 | <tusko> | ancient times |
| 01:10:15 | <davean> | tusko: in the 90s I recall seeing it petro for 0.89 USD/Gallon |
| 01:10:23 | <monochrom> | There always exist a scaling factor such that a unit of currency buys a unit of petro, tautologically. |
| 01:10:37 | <davean> | monochrom: not if petro is unbuyable |
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| 01:11:18 | <yin> | what is petro? is it how the cool kids are saying petrol these days? |
| 01:12:42 | <geekosaur> | something oil-based, as opposed to petrol/gasoline specifically? |
| 01:13:09 | <yin> | oh like petrochemicals? |
| 01:13:43 | <geekosaur> | yeh |
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| 01:27:46 | <Guest616> | How do I pick a random element from a list? |
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| 01:28:23 | <Guest616> | (not (!!) random access, I mean picking a random number from 1-10 and picking that index from the list, in 1 step) |
| 01:28:57 | <mauke> | that's two steps |
| 01:29:18 | <mauke> | :t randomRIO |
| 01:29:18 | <lambdabot> | (Random a, MonadIO m) => (a, a) -> m a |
| 01:29:24 | <mauke> | :t randomRIO (1, 10) |
| 01:29:25 | <lambdabot> | (Random a, MonadIO m, Num a) => m a |
| 01:30:09 | <mauke> | :t \xs -> (xs !!) <$> randomRIO (1, 10) |
| 01:30:10 | <lambdabot> | MonadIO f => [b] -> f b |
| 01:31:08 | <mauke> | % (\xs -> (xs !!) <$> randomRIO (1, 10)) "hello" |
| 01:31:08 | <yahb2> | <interactive>:22:21: error: ; Variable not in scope: randomRIO :: (a0, b0) -> f Int |
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| 02:38:52 | <Guest616> | mauke: ah, thanks |
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| 02:39:04 | <Guest616> | I was under the impression that randomRIO was from RIO lol |
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| 02:44:30 | <sm> | understandable |
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| 08:30:48 | <kuribas> | I was asked to do a talk on correct by construction in my company. |
| 08:30:59 | <kuribas> | I'd like to use a Python example, and also show how dependent types (idris) can help with this. |
| 08:31:14 | <kuribas> | Do smart constructors count as correct by construction? |
| 08:31:35 | <kuribas> | I could give a small clojure example to please the crowd :) |
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| 08:32:50 | <mauke> | I thought the guaranteed-full binary tree type was neat |
| 08:33:13 | <kuribas> | yeah, I was looking for that, but couldn't find it back. |
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| 08:37:05 | <tomsmeding> | hm? data Nat = Z | S Nat ; data Tree (n :: Nat) a where { Leaf :: Tree 0 a ; Node :: Tree n a -> Tree n a -> Tree (S n) a } |
| 08:37:33 | <tomsmeding> | which is hellish with GHC.TypeLits Nat, by the way |
| 08:37:56 | <mauke> | data Tree a = Leaf a | Node (Tree (a, a)) |
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| 08:38:12 | <tomsmeding> | ah right |
| 08:38:50 | <kuribas> | my idea was to use python FastAPI as an example, how creating the api will ensure it is correct wrt to the specification (openAPI spec). |
| 08:39:13 | <kuribas> | at least, when using the static type checker, like pyright. |
| 08:39:44 | <kuribas> | And then to show extensible records, where you have a record specification which states the invariants of the record that cannot be broken. |
| 08:41:13 | <kuribas> | I could use that tree exampe perhaps. |
| 08:41:26 | <[exa]> | kuribas: I'd suggest to do the haskell refactoring trick |
| 08:41:55 | <[exa]> | make an example codebase, then change the type of something in the API, and show how fixing the rest of the app is simply "walking the errors" |
| 08:41:56 | <kuribas> | refactor some haskell code? |
| 08:42:01 | <kuribas> | right |
| 08:42:43 | <[exa]> | it's a bit off the "correct by construction" but the certainty of "there's no forgotten NULL somewhere" is what sells this to devs :D |
| 08:42:58 | <kuribas> | not clojure devs... |
| 08:43:36 | <tomsmeding> | kuribas: you're the one who brought idris into the conversation :p |
| 08:43:46 | <kuribas> | I also wanted to show that dependent types can allow you to use both clojure techniques, and domain modelling with the type system. |
| 08:43:51 | <[exa]> | clojure devs never forgot to fill in a non-null field? |
| 08:43:59 | <kuribas> | They don't care. |
| 08:44:20 | <kuribas> | Well, there is spec, which does runtime validation. |
| 08:44:27 | <kuribas> | or malli, what we use. |
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| 08:48:54 | <kuribas> | mauke: right, that was the one. |
| 08:49:17 | <kuribas> | mauke: but I also read it was hard to manipulate. |
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| 08:51:44 | <kuribas> | mauke: My assertion that prompted this talk was that (dependent) types, or correct by construction, doesn't necessary imply a lot of complexity. |
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| 09:25:20 | <jade[m]> | I want to run a program with `suid`, but I'm not sure how to achieve this ergonomically with cabal |
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| 09:26:06 | <jade[m]> | as of now I have to compile and then chmod u+s manually - how can I automate that# |
| 09:26:07 | <jade[m]> | s//`/, s//`/, s/#/?/ |
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| 09:34:13 | <geekosaur> | I don't think cabal will help you there. I'm also not sure it should, between portability (Windows doesn't do suid and MacOS generally won't let you) and security concerns (yes, types help, but in the end it's in IO and can do anything) |
| 09:35:13 | <jade[m]> | mhm yeah |
| 09:35:37 | <jade[m]> | I'm running into another issue too, where `System.Posix.User` from `unix` does not seem to work with shadowed passwords |
| 09:35:47 | <geekosaur> | I'm in particular reminded of the Knuth quote "I have only proven this program correct, not tested it" |
| 09:36:32 | <jade[m]> | jade[m]: Is there a library that does or do I have to use C/foreign calls? |
| 09:38:48 | <geekosaur> | I think you have to write bindings to `getspent` and friends yourself |
| 09:39:41 | <geekosaur> | also beware that on modern systems they're often hashes |
| 09:40:10 | <jade[m]> | yes |
| 09:40:39 | <jade[m]> | I'm basically reading through the source code of `slock` and trying to find bindings haha |
| 09:41:50 | <geekosaur> | on any reasonably modern system you actually want to go through PAM, not blindly assume shadow passwords, but I guess I'm not surprised slock doesn't |
| 09:42:13 | <geekosaur> | (I actually don't like suckless stuff much. slock in particular has been a source of security issues) |
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| 09:43:56 | <jade[m]> | mhm, I understand |
| 09:44:01 | <jade[m]> | I'll read up on pam |
| 09:45:28 | <geekosaur> | if you use PAM you get support for 2-factor auth, fingerprint readers, etc. |
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| 09:49:52 | <nomagno> | Isn't PAM a netpbm pixel format? |
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| 09:50:25 | <jade[m]> | looks great |
| 09:51:14 | <geekosaur> | `man 7 pam` |
| 09:51:51 | <nomagno> | Ah |
| 09:52:01 | <geekosaur> | although the namespace of TLAs is small enough that I'm not surprised there are collisions 🙂 |
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| 09:52:28 | <mauke> | pluggable authentication modules, not portable any map |
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| 11:14:35 | <Inst> | could i get some help installing hmatrix? |
| 11:14:39 | <Inst> | on windows? |
| 11:14:45 | <Inst> | just dropped down to older cabal |
| 11:15:14 | <Inst> | cabal isn't seeing blas and lapack libs |
| 11:19:47 | <Inst> | i went with msys, trying to use include-dirs |
| 11:19:51 | <Inst> | trying to install to global library |
| 11:21:10 | <Inst> | https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/968989726633779215/1091321225923543061/image.png?width=1718&height=810 |
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| 11:31:19 | <[exa]> | Inst: installing lapack and blas and pointing to it should solve this |
| 11:31:32 | <Inst> | how can I install lapack and blas? :( |
| 11:31:43 | <Inst> | maybe I'm doing it wrong and thinking of openblas, when it's probably more useful to think of lapack and blas |
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| 11:31:54 | <[exa]> | openblas should do the same AFAIK |
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| 11:32:17 | <[exa]> | do you have openblas header files and library files somewhere? |
| 11:32:25 | <Inst> | maybe my pkg-config is broken? |
| 11:32:48 | <[exa]> | you can try pkg-config lapack --libs |
| 11:33:00 | <Inst> | lol, you've gotta be kidding me |
| 11:33:17 | <Inst> | hmatrix installs if I install lapack lib instead of openblas |
| 11:34:00 | <[exa]> | ok maybe openblas simply doesn't install to cabal-visible destinations |
| 11:34:19 | <[exa]> | like, it _should_ work afaik but always better check |
| 11:34:43 | <Inst> | i nuked my openblas |
| 11:34:50 | <Inst> | lapack on its own seems to be working, waiting on the error message |
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| 11:35:00 | <Inst> | https://discourse.haskell.org/t/binning-haskell-with-dsa/6048/10 |
| 11:35:20 | <Inst> | i'm trying to do fib with hmatrix, never used that library before |
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| 11:43:00 | <merijn> | Inst, [exa]: The hmatrix package doesn't use pkg-config to find them, it uses hard coded paths |
| 11:43:06 | <merijn> | (looking at the cabal file) |
| 11:43:37 | <merijn> | cabal has flags for specifying extra lib/include dirs that you probably want |
| 11:43:45 | <merijn> | (if it's still not finding them) |
| 11:44:08 | <[exa]> | oh well, good to know. |
| 11:46:16 | <Inst> | i'm more annoyed that C FFI right now is still wonky with ghci |
| 11:46:23 | <Inst> | ghci is my go-to for screwing around |
| 11:46:26 | <Inst> | thanks for help, merijn |
| 11:46:37 | <Inst> | access violation in generated code at... |
| 11:46:40 | <merijn> | Inst: It's fine, you just need to run ghci with -fobject-code |
| 11:46:52 | <merijn> | so it uses compiled Haskell and not bytecode |
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| 11:48:49 | <Inst> | okay, again |
| 11:48:49 | <Inst> | :( |
| 11:49:04 | <Inst> | https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/968989726633779215/1091328284140245072/image.png?width=2158&height=524 |
| 11:49:39 | <merijn> | oh, this is windows? |
| 11:49:57 | <merijn> | I vaguely recall windows dynamic linking being a mess |
| 11:50:37 | <Inst> | maybe it's just a windows thing |
| 11:50:38 | <Inst> | oh okay |
| 11:51:52 | <geekosaur> | access violation? this sounds like it might be https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/23194 |
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| 12:01:22 | <Inst> | ugly, handrolling |
| 12:01:30 | <Inst> | handrolled my own matrix type |
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| 12:10:21 | <Inst> | Ugh, everyone would have been better off if Haskell gatekept like OCaml and dumped Windows support |
| 12:10:40 | <[exa]> | Inst: why you use it on windows tho? |
| 12:10:50 | <Inst> | I'm a windows luser |
| 12:10:59 | <Inst> | not really ready to migrate to my debian install |
| 12:11:11 | <Inst> | but it's pretty |
| 12:11:38 | <Inst> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/F3NHbKF5 |
| 12:11:52 | <Inst> | still waiting on powershell to finish outputting, heh |
| 12:21:29 | <Inst> | on plus side, faster than julia, seemingly |
| 12:21:37 | jade[m] | uploaded an image: (134KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/the-apothecary.club/4cbe3cc25ea0701cda2b8aaab77eb0a504f94e0d/image.png > |
| 12:21:37 | <jade[m]> | Why is there so many versions, especially of HLS? |
| 12:21:39 | jade[m] | uploaded an image: (120KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/the-apothecary.club/14583b79ac61cb926c5bb3140ce85ed4c7acc00b/image.png > |
| 12:24:23 | <Inst> | slightly faster than julia is okay, i guess |
| 12:24:51 | <Inst> | 18 secs vs 20 secs, GHCI, and remember it's GHCI, is slower than Julia, when using strict data structures and a hack into Num to get fast exponentiation |
| 12:25:32 | <yushyin> | jade[m]: https://haskell-language-server.readthedocs.io/en/latest/what-is-hls.html#hls-and-its-wrapper |
| 12:27:15 | <Inst> | and used less memory too |
| 12:27:16 | <Inst> | not bad |
| 12:27:46 | <jade[m]> | ok, but why is there also specific versions like 9.2 and 9.2.7? |
| 12:28:35 | <geekosaur> | because HLS has to be linked against a specific ghc, because it uses the ghc api which isn't exactly stable (it's hooks into the guts of the compiler) |
| 12:29:35 | <geekosaur> | which is also why the version of HLS that supported 9.2.5 didn't support 9.2.7 automatically |
| 12:30:24 | <jade[m]> | alright |
| 12:32:41 | <merijn> | Effectively, HLS is using GHC-as-library to do analysis of your code |
| 12:33:23 | <merijn> | Which is nice, because it knows everything the compiler does. But it also sucks, because you basically end up needing to use a version that's using the exact same compiler version to make any sense |
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| 12:35:57 | <Inst> | okay, redoing in HMatrix via ghc -O2 hand compile |
| 12:36:11 | <Inst> | already reported Haskell GHCI beating Julia as a bug |
| 12:36:16 | <Inst> | to Julia community |
| 12:36:36 | <yushyin> | 'bug' |
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| 12:38:53 | <maerwald[m]> | merijn: yeah, mind boggling that there's no ghc-as-an-actual-lib that HLS csn just link against |
| 12:39:14 | <maerwald[m]> | Everything is broken in Haskell |
| 12:40:12 | <Inst> | thanks for trying to fix stuff maerwald |
| 12:40:33 | <Inst> | is there a fast way to do matrix exponentiation by a scalar in HMatrix? |
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| 12:41:04 | <Inst> | because mat ^ scalar is giving me improper results |
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| 12:41:52 | <merijn> | maerwald[m]: I mean, there is an as actual lib, it's just not a stable one :p |
| 12:42:14 | <Inst> | bleh, this shit doesn't even work, HMatrix doesn't seem to support Integer data type natively? |
| 12:42:29 | <maerwald[m]> | merijn: yeah right... I remember someone saying GHC ABI is actually stable, it just changes too fast |
| 12:42:36 | <maerwald[m]> | But that's wrong too |
| 12:42:55 | <maerwald[m]> | Rebuild GHC with profiling and your ABI is busted |
| 12:43:34 | <merijn> | Inst: Of course it doesn't. It's using BLAS and BLAS only works on fixed size datatypes (mostly uint32_t, uint64_t, float, and double) |
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| 12:57:07 | <Inst> | oh well |
| 13:00:48 | <[exa]> | Inst: what's the usecase btw? |
| 13:01:19 | <Inst> | none |
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| 13:43:16 | <Inst_> | [exa]: was just wondering abotu teaching fib, i.e, if you bring it up, you should show the matrix fib that's most efficient |
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| 14:21:56 | <[exa]> | Inst_: what's fib, like fibonacci numbers? |
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| 14:25:21 | <Inst_> | ya |
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| 14:25:41 | <Inst_> | currently, we're about 20% slower than Julia |
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| 14:28:43 | <[exa]> | why do you need matrices for computing fibs? |
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| 14:31:29 | <jean-paul[m]> | How do I do IO in the creation of a Tasty TestTree? eg, to read a set of test vectors from a file |
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| 14:33:33 | <int-e> | [exa]: they're a good way to arrive at algorithms that compute the n-th fibonacci number in O(log(n)) arithmetic operations. |
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| 14:35:39 | <int-e> | Basically you look at powers of [0,1;1,1], using the fact that [0,1;1,1]^n = [F_{n-1},F_n;F_n,F_{n+1}] |
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| 14:37:45 | <[exa]> | yeah but that's not "lapack matrices" per se, I'd guess that call overhead to blas will take more time than doing this thing manually |
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| 14:39:02 | <[exa]> | but well, ok :] |
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| 14:39:18 | <int-e> | Ah. If that was your point, yeah I don't know why you'd want to literally use matrices either. |
| 14:40:44 | <int-e> | (Instead of using matrices to derive formulas for F_{2n} and F_{2n+1} in terms of F_n and F_{n+1}, and then going wild with those.) |
| 14:42:35 | <monochrom> | You can understand what the matrix formula is really doing, and unpack it back to just passing Double scalar parameters. |
| 14:44:09 | <int-e> | Hmm what is it really doing? Do you want to do arithmetic in Z[x]/<x^2 - x - 1>? |
| 14:44:30 | <monochrom> | Allow me to go hyperbole with "I am summing up 3 numbers, it's always 3 numbers no more no less, so I wrote summing lists in language X but lists in X are slow." Solution: s x y z = x+y+z, no list. |
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| 14:55:14 | <Axman6> | jean-paul[m]: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/tasty-golden-2.3.5/docs/Test-Tasty-Golden.html might be helpful? it depends on which tasty provider you're using |
| 15:00:39 | <jean-paul[m]> | Axman6: Thanks, looks interesting |
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| 16:04:41 | <hippoid> | :t (.) const |
| 16:04:42 | <lambdabot> | (a1 -> a2) -> a1 -> b -> a2 |
| 16:05:31 | <hippoid> | when naming the type variables, is there some reason that lambdabot seems to group together certain variables wiht the prefix a, and others with b? |
| 16:05:52 | <hippoid> | for example, in `(.) const` |
| 16:06:41 | <hippoid> | it could have equally chosen names a, b, c... so why a1, a2, and b instead? |
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| 16:09:18 | <Cale> | hippoid: GHC tries to preserve the variable names used in signatures, but adds numbers to them when collisions happen. |
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| 16:17:43 | <hippoid> | Cale: ok, thanks. is there somewhere this is documented? |
| 16:18:02 | <hippoid> | I want to look into this more to see if I can get more intuition about reasoning about type signatures |
| 16:18:05 | <hippoid> | :t const . const |
| 16:18:06 | <lambdabot> | a -> b1 -> b2 -> a |
| 16:18:36 | <geekosaur> | it won't actually help for that, the type checker does its own thing and behyavior isn't guaranteed even across ghc versions |
| 16:18:45 | <Cale> | Well, as you pointed out, the particular choices of variable names are not especially important, and it really could rename them all for you. |
| 16:18:51 | <hippoid> | like when I do that, it takes me a long to figure out how it all fits together. and now i also ask, why doesn't a have a number, but b1 and b2 do |
| 16:19:11 | <geekosaur> | at most you might get an idea of in what order the typechecker in that version of ghc is typechecking things |
| 16:19:58 | <hippoid> | ok, i'll take the advice and not go down that route |
| 16:20:26 | <geekosaur> | which can change for various reasons often related to support for type level operations like type families, etc. |
| 16:21:11 | <hippoid> | on a related note, is there some equivalent way to reason about the expression `const . const`, by using combinators, like `KBK`, or kestrel bluebird kestrel when using the 'to mock a mockingbird' names? |
| 16:22:47 | <hippoid> | my undersstanding is that KBKxyz reduces to Bx(yz), but then how does one figure out the types of x, y and z? or are types even a 'thing' with combinators? |
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| 16:23:19 | <geekosaur> | combinator calculus is usually untyped |
| 16:23:40 | <geekosaur> | which is why it can have a Y combinator |
| 16:24:18 | <geekosaur> | (which, if you try to write it in Haskell, you'll find you can't write an acceptable type for it) |
| 16:25:30 | <int-e> | But doesn't combinatory *logic* connect to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilbert_system#Logical_axioms? (The axioms P1...P3 are the types of I, K, and S, respectively) |
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| 16:27:55 | <geekosaur> | so it connects to a typed combinator calculus in which the Y combinator can't exist (or is equivalent to P^~P) |
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| 16:29:48 | <int-e> | Also I guess KBKxyz -> Bxyz -> x(yz). So the final term suggests x: b -> c, y: a -> b, z: a, but that doesn't ensure that the original term can be typed with those chocies. |
| 16:32:27 | <EvanR> | :t fmap fmap fmap |
| 16:32:28 | <lambdabot> | (Functor f1, Functor f2) => (a -> b) -> f1 (f2 a) -> f1 (f2 b) |
| 16:32:38 | <EvanR> | sometimes it works out pretty good |
| 16:33:14 | <hippoid> | int-e: I wrote the wrong combinator expression for `const . const`. instead of KBKxyz, it should have been BKKxyz |
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| 16:36:43 | <sm> | from a quick glance at haskell.org I didn't see any short motivating Why Haskell ? page suitable for civilians - do you know of one ? |
| 16:37:10 | <sm> | aha, https://www.fpcomplete.com/haskell/#why-haskell |
| 16:38:56 | <sm> | a more focussed one, on or linking more directly to haskell.org, would be nice |
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| 17:43:06 | <monochrom> | Heck, I don't know why I should want other people to use Haskell either. |
| 17:44:00 | <monochrom> | I know why I want to use Haskell. But my values misalign, even oppose, most other people's values. So actually everything I say about myself will push people away. |
| 17:44:55 | <[exa]> | I guess the general rule about pushing others to do stuff applies |
| 17:45:10 | <monochrom> | But if you say, "sure, no problem, why-haskell just needs to attract more people like monochrom", then the current "purely functional statically typed" already does it. |
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| 17:46:11 | <monochrom> | And then there is also Hughes's "why FP matters" which covers why lazy. |
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| 17:51:04 | <monochrom> | And if you feel that the python website is better ("better") at this kind of evangelism/advocacy, here is my old post on my opinion (TL;DR that "better" means snake oil) https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2007-October/032625.html |
| 17:52:33 | <[exa]> | why not just have a site that highlights top cool haskell projects? |
| 17:54:47 | <monochrom> | Yeah that's a good idea. |
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| 18:03:08 | <[exa]> | actually I recall we made a pretty good list a few weeks ago |
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| 18:09:33 | <L29Ah> | so, how do i print two Word's into a ByteString as two decimal ascii numbers and a separator? |
| 18:14:12 | <monochrom> | Data.ByteString.Builder has something, e.g., wordDec |
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| 18:15:44 | <L29Ah> | thanks |
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| 19:15:53 | <EvanR> | someone asked me if this was accurate (chatGPT asked to explain monads) https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/710644130048639066/1091440382304325714/image.png |
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| 19:21:09 | <EvanR> | at least it's not burritos |
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| 19:49:04 | <[exa]> | EvanR: tbh if you substitute monad by any other programming coolword it doesn't make much less sense |
| 19:52:19 | <EvanR> | is that more or less accurate than "not even wrong" |
| 19:52:47 | <[exa]> | yeah it neatly avoided being wrong |
| 19:54:46 | <ph88> | does someone know a foldlike function that works on either? (a -> Either b c) -> f a -> Either b (f c) first Left value short circuit, otherwise Right values are collected |
| 19:55:34 | <ph88> | actually i would need the monad variant of that Monad m => (a -> m (Either b c)) -> f a -> m (Either b [c]) |
| 20:04:13 | <[exa]> | ph88: this gets asked quite regularly :] might be just `sequenceA` or maybe `asum` |
| 20:05:17 | <ph88> | thanks [exa] :) |
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| 20:08:26 | <[exa]> | aaaaaaaaaaand it's sequence because Either has no Alternative by default |
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| 20:13:39 | <EvanR> | :t sequenceA |
| 20:13:40 | <lambdabot> | (Traversable t, Applicative f) => t (f a) -> f (t a) |
| 20:13:52 | <EvanR> | :t asum |
| 20:13:53 | <lambdabot> | (Foldable t, Alternative f) => t (f a) -> f a |
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| 20:24:35 | <mastarija> | Any idea why GHC is yelling at me that this has non-exhaustive pattern matching?: |
| 20:24:47 | <mastarija> | let mps@[mp1, mp2] = [sectionTreeMinPriY t1, sectionTreeMinPriY t2] |
| 20:25:30 | <EvanR> | not smart enough to see the definition implies the other options are impossible |
| 20:26:15 | <EvanR> | you could use a tuple for that definition then define mps = (mp1, mp2) |
| 20:26:15 | <mastarija> | Ghci doesn't complain, but when i try to build it with '-Wincomplete-uni-patterns, -Werror=incomplete-uni-patterns' it errors out... |
| 20:26:31 | <EvanR> | er, mps = [mp1,mp2] |
| 20:27:00 | <mastarija> | yeah. I was trying to be concise, since I have to use `maximum mps` elsewhere etc. |
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| 20:27:52 | <EvanR> | stands to reason if there's a warning about it, the check for pattern failure might not get optimized out either |
| 20:28:17 | <mastarija> | GHCI complained when I tried `fmap sectionTreeMinPriY [t1, t2]` |
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| 20:28:36 | <mastarija> | That seems reasonable, because it doesn't know what `fmap` does with the list. |
| 20:29:08 | <mastarija> | So I've changed it to the previous form and it was ok. But when I try to actually build stuff it gets confused. :( |
| 20:29:53 | <EvanR> | well there's nothing inherently wrong with the code, so the error on incomplete patterns seems inappropriate |
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| 20:30:46 | <mastarija> | Yeah. It's just that... how can I lord over my friends about how haskell is superior if it can't figure this out xD |
| 20:30:55 | <EvanR> | and a maximum [x,y] is just max x y |
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| 20:32:23 | <EvanR> | to be superior you have to upgrade to dependent types, probably by building your own dependently typed system because you'll run into even more things that annoy you |
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| 20:32:52 | <EvanR> | then you can even lord of haskell users |
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| 20:38:31 | <mastarija> | EvanR: I already use dependent types to some extent, and I have another case with THREE elements in a list, so `max` won't do xD |
| 20:39:43 | <Guillaum[m]> | When reading `+RTS -s` output, I can see " GC time 11.983s (243.588s elapsed)". According to the doc, it is first the CPU time, and last the wall clock time. For MUT, the CPU time is usually close to N times the wall clock time (where N is th number of core used). But I don't understand why GC, in this context, is taking 245s of "wall clock time", but only "11s" of CPU time? Does this accounts for system time or locks? |
| 20:39:47 | <EvanR> | maxx x y z |
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| 20:41:39 | <c_wraith> | with a differential *that* big, I'd expect that you've got something going on that's blocking GC on one thread while the rest are stopped waiting |
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| 20:47:04 | <mastarija> | :t maxx |
| 20:47:05 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 20:47:05 | <lambdabot> | • Variable not in scope: maxx |
| 20:47:05 | <lambdabot> | • Perhaps you meant ‘max’ (imported from Data.Ord) |
| 20:47:27 | <mastarija> | had to check if it's real :) |
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| 20:49:25 | <Guillaum[m]> | c_wraith: do you have some example of what "something going on that's blocking GC" may mean. This program is mostly a `mapConcurrently` from `async` with something like 1000 tasks, on 60 cores. |
| 20:49:46 | <c_wraith> | typically, a thread that runs for a long time without allocating. |
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| 20:59:22 | <tomsmeding> | Guillaum[m]: if you haven't yet, try running with +RTS -qg |
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| 21:00:25 | <tomsmeding> | or perhaps -qn2, -qn3 or -qn4 or so |
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| 21:00:42 | <tomsmeding> | (instead of -qg, that is) |
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| 21:01:31 | <c_wraith> | There's also the concurrent collector to try |
| 21:01:35 | <tomsmeding> | though given c_wraith's diagnosis, it's not terribly likely to work |
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| 21:02:20 | <tomsmeding> | (the concurrent collector is enabled with +RTS --nonmoving-gc) |
| 21:02:34 | <c_wraith> | eh, still worth ruling out a parallel GC issue. those still strike, unfortunately |
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| 21:06:29 | <Guillaum[m]> | c_wraith: ha, that's interesting, when a thread had done enough allocation, it waits for the other thread to reach the same state, and GC is not triggered until this is the case? That's super interesting, and may explain a lot (I'm spending a lot of time in some C foreign calls, so no allocation, obivously) |
| 21:06:50 | <Guillaum[m]> | tomsmeding: I'll try the -qg -gn options, thank you. |
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| 21:07:31 | <c_wraith> | Guillaum[m]: not exactly that - when a thread allocates (and enough time has passed, by default) it checks to see if there's a GC in progress. If there is, it stops and waits for GC to complete. |
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| 21:09:11 | <Guillaum[m]> | c_wraith: ha, intereting, it changes my mental model of the GC. |
| 21:11:30 | <c_wraith> | and notably, unless you're using the new concurrent GC, the GC doesn't start until *all* threads are stopped waiting. |
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| 23:31:40 | <jwiegley> | is there a Haskell tool to recursively print out a type? |
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| 23:44:09 | <EvanR> | do you mean print out a value of some type |
| 23:44:15 | <jwiegley> | no, the type itself |
| 23:44:30 | <jwiegley> | I'm diving into a parser that a Term type with lots and lots of helper types, many of them recursive |
| 23:44:34 | <EvanR> | % print (Maybe (Int, Char)) |
| 23:44:34 | <yahb2> | <interactive>:24:8: error: ; • Illegal term-level use of the type constructor ‘Maybe’ ; imported from ‘Prelude’ (and originally defined in ‘GHC.Maybe’) ; • In the first argument of ... |
| 23:44:39 | <jwiegley> | I just want to say `:t Term` and see them all |
| 23:45:01 | <EvanR> | ok that's not what I wanted to do |
| 23:45:05 | <EvanR> | :t typeRep |
| 23:45:06 | <lambdabot> | forall k (a :: k) (proxy :: k -> *). Typeable a => proxy a -> TypeRep |
| 23:45:28 | <EvanR> | > show (typeRef (proxy :: Maybe (Int,Char))) |
| 23:45:29 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 23:45:30 | <lambdabot> | • Variable not in scope: typeRef :: Maybe (Int, Char) -> a0 |
| 23:45:30 | <lambdabot> | • Perhaps you meant one of these: |
| 23:45:35 | <EvanR> | > show (typeRep (proxy :: Maybe (Int,Char))) |
| 23:45:36 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 23:45:36 | <lambdabot> | • Variable not in scope: proxy :: Maybe (Int, Char) |
| 23:45:36 | <lambdabot> | • Perhaps you meant data constructor ‘Proxy’ (imported from Data.Typeable) |
| 23:45:42 | <EvanR> | > show (typeRep (Proxy :: Maybe (Int,Char))) |
| 23:45:44 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 23:45:44 | <lambdabot> | • Couldn't match expected type ‘Maybe (Int, Char)’ |
| 23:45:44 | <lambdabot> | with actual type ‘Proxy t0’ |
| 23:46:10 | <EvanR> | OKAY |
| 23:46:11 | <jwiegley> | let me ask it another way |
| 23:46:26 | <jwiegley> | I want to extract a type `Term` from a project into a file, such that it still type checks |
| 23:47:00 | <jwiegley> | because I want to perform some type surgery on this term, with tests to ensure that my modifications remain isomorphic |
| 23:48:14 | <EvanR> | maybe you want generics which lets you operate on types with the same structure in a uniform way, and observe the type's structure for reasons |
| 23:48:45 | <jwiegley> | that doesn't really sound like what I want |
| 23:48:55 | <jwiegley> | I know how to do the extraction I'm thinking of by hand, it's pretty easy enough |
| 23:49:03 | <jwiegley> | but it's so purely mechanical, that it has to be automatable |
| 23:49:12 | <jwiegley> | perhaps using one of the GHC parsing libraries |
| 23:50:04 | <EvanR> | yeah if you are operating on actual haskell code for types, maybe haskell-src-exts |
| 23:50:40 | <EvanR> | I'm not sure if checking two types for isomorphism breaks one or more laws of computer science though |
| 23:51:45 | <jwiegley> | but no tool for this already? because faster than writing a utility based on src-exts will be to just copy the files and start deleting |
| 23:52:38 | <EvanR> | if you have to do this manual process more than one time, it's likely writing a tool for it will eventually have productivity gains |
| 23:54:41 | <jwiegley> | nope, just the once |
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| 23:55:50 | <EvanR> | then I daresay a combination of vim fu emacs fu or sed fu would be much faster |
| 23:56:15 | <jwiegley> | the fu's have it |
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| 23:57:03 | <EvanR> | I too would like to be tony stark iron man and invent holographic tangible computing for every one off task xD |
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All times are in UTC on 2023-03-31.