Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2023-04-06 (liberachat/#haskell)

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04:10:10 <tusko> how to use lambdabot
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04:15:57 <ski> > fix ((0 :) . (1 :) . (zipWith (+) `ap` tail))
04:15:59 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,...
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07:45:09 <tomsmeding> tusko: can also use lambdabot in a pricate chat
07:45:56 <witcher> i want to write an application that passes a config type around via the `Reader` monad. since there might be some functions that use `IO` i'd use `ReaderT`, but then all of my other functions using the config become impure because they *could* do IO, which I want to avoid. what's the common solution for this problem?
07:47:14 <tomsmeding> witcher: do you have many functions that don't need IO and also don't call any functions that use IO?
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07:47:36 <tomsmeding> @unmtl Reader r a
07:47:37 <lambdabot> r -> a
07:47:37 <witcher> tomsmeding: ideally i will, yes
07:47:47 <tomsmeding> you could just add another parameter to those functions :p
07:48:00 <tomsmeding> that's really all Reader is
07:48:25 <witcher> i could, but i assumed it's more idiomatic to use a reader monad instead
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07:48:38 <witcher> my professor in uni kept praising the reader monad for that exact use case
07:48:45 <tomsmeding> but I guess it isn't hard to write a 'Reader r a -> ReaderT r IO a' lifting function
07:49:09 <Hecate> witcher: so, you're encountering the issue that led to the development of more granular ways to track your effects
07:50:00 <Hecate> witcher: let me introduce you to a better way than rigid stacks of transformers: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/effectful-core-2.2.2.2/docs/Effectful.html
07:50:03 <Hecate> :>
07:50:21 <witcher> Hecate: aha, I'll have a look. thanks!
07:50:32 <witcher> tomsmeding: will keep this in mind, thank you!
07:50:37 <tomsmeding> % import Control.Monad.Reader
07:50:37 <yahb2> <no output>
07:50:40 <tomsmeding> % :t \m -> ReaderT (return . runReader m)
07:50:40 <yahb2> \m -> ReaderT (return . runReader m) ; :: forall {m :: * -> *} {r} {a}. ; Monad m => ; Reader r a -> ReaderT r m a
07:50:50 <tomsmeding> yeah or go all algebraic effects, that's also cool :p
07:51:37 <tomsmeding> I'm not sure I like the reader monad for config; it makes all your code monadic for no good reason IMO
07:51:52 <tomsmeding> but if you have other effects around as well and so can't really drop the monadic style anyway, then it's very nice
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07:52:47 <witcher> I assume you would just pass it around as a parameter?
07:52:53 <witcher> the config that is
07:52:57 <tomsmeding> if there's no other reason to make the code monadic, yes
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07:53:39 <tomsmeding> % :t ReaderT . (return .) . runReader
07:53:39 <yahb2> ReaderT . (return .) . runReader ; :: forall {m :: * -> *} {r} {a}. ; Monad m => ; Reader r a -> ReaderT r m a
07:54:15 <Hecate> heavens
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07:56:49 <witcher> also, i fear i might get lost in thinking about side effects while trying to write my first actual real world application
07:57:05 <witcher> you know, besides programming a huffmann tree
07:59:49 <tomsmeding> honestly I'd apply the same tradeoff reasoning to algebraic effects -- if you're going to have many functions that require just a reader effect, just pass in the things as parameters and forgo monadic style altogether
07:59:57 <tomsmeding> but this is a very subjective point
08:01:11 <tomsmeding> alg. effects shine when you have a bunch of different side-effects, all of which you need at different places: database access, config file access, general file system access, a certain network API, randomness, etc.
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08:04:42 <Hecate> witcher: https://play.haskell.org/saved/iFw8FRcs
08:06:41 <Hecate> witcher: if you want to see those in practice, check out https://fosdem.org/2023/schedule/event/haskell_web_app_architecture_flora/
08:08:59 <witcher> tomsmeding: i'll think about it. it'll probably make my life easier in the beginning
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08:09:50 <witcher> Hecate: looks confusing :p
08:09:55 <Hecate> witcher: damnit :D
08:09:56 <witcher> i'll have a look at the fosdem talk
08:10:24 <witcher> don't get me wrong, this seems to be exactly what i'm looking for!
08:10:43 <tomsmeding> it is certainly the (to us) obvious generalisation of what you're looking for
08:10:49 <witcher> i've already stopped learning haskell once because i added too much complexity in the beginning
08:10:58 <witcher> i'm trying to avoid making the same mistake again :p
08:10:58 <tomsmeding> though I suspect it may be overkill for your current usecase
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08:11:13 <tomsmeding> not that you can't use it anyway as a learning opportunity, but that's a choice
08:11:32 <witcher> of course! but one step at a time :)
08:11:39 <Hecate> yes :)
08:11:41 <Hecate> baby steps
08:11:56 <Hecate> personally I had an application that was full transformers with no granularity at all
08:12:12 <Hecate> (then I found salvation and effectful, but that's part 2 of my story)
08:12:14 <witcher> Hecate: oh you were the speaker. i'll definitely give it a watch then :)
08:12:49 <witcher> it's definitely going to be usecul since i have been thinking about programming a web application the past few days that i ideally want to realise with haskell
08:12:52 <Hecate> witcher: eh, judge the quality of the talk, not the flesh-covered skeleton that moves on stage :P
08:13:21 <witcher> Hecate: will do, don't worry :)
08:14:50 <witcher> the web application actually the reason i'm trying to push myself to learn more haskell to be productive
08:17:33 <Hecate> witcher: it is really a delightful language for backend development
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08:38:57 <kuribas> How do higher kinded types correspond to the lambda cube?
08:39:02 <kenran> I was just hoping to ask a vague "question" about algebraic effects and there's already an ongoing discussion, nice!
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08:39:36 <kuribas> You can have Types depending on Types, however (Type -> Type) is not a type...
08:40:33 <kuribas> I suppose haskell doesn't fit into the lambda cube?
08:41:25 <Hecate> kenran: do! do ask!
08:41:54 <Hecate> (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3q8Od5qJio )
08:42:37 <kenran> I was wondering how/if (or if you can point me to resources on how) you reduce "friction" when working with effects but also having a somewhat concurrent application. That is, there's a web server in my case (or multiple) that use effects (polysemy) in their transformation when hoisting, for instance interacting with some "store". 1/n
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08:44:52 <kuribas> kenran: I don't have much experience with polysemy, but the idea of effect systems is to abstract over effects, so you have mostly pure functions. They make concurrency much easier since you don't have to worry about mutable structures.
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08:45:15 <kuribas> kenran: For example, you can update an MVar containing an immutable structure, which means you don't have conflicts.
08:45:18 <kenran> Now there are some concurrent processes that supervise other stuff, like running system processes producing result, but that also need to react with the store (and use other effects the server also uses). So I need lots of combinations of interpreter functions, and I feel like trying to have certain common combinations of interpreters as functions always produces lots of "visually heavy" code, and also doesn't react well when I _do_
08:45:19 <kenran> have to change these
08:45:49 <[Leary]> kuribas: `Type -> Type` kinded things are types, they just aren't `Type`s.
08:46:48 <kuribas> [Leary]: aren't Types supposed to be inhabitable?
08:47:29 <kenran> In essence, I have lots of "little entry points", that is, "just IO", where I very often have to chain interpreter functions, and I guess I'm looking for examples of how this is best structured/factored
08:48:00 <kuribas> kenran: what do you mean with interpreter functions?
08:48:04 <kenran> I often find myself annoyed at working with it -- but on the other hand I can only imagine that doing this mtl-style would be even worse
08:49:05 <kenran> kuribas: with polysemy (and I guess effectful and others as well) you have to get from your effect "set" to IO somehow in the end. The interpreter functions peel away (usually) one effect at a time, or re-interpret it into other ones
08:49:06 <Hecate> kenran: have you ever read Servant code?
08:49:12 <Hecate> (code that makes use of Servant)
08:49:30 <kenran> Hecate: the server I mention is using servant :)
08:49:34 <Hecate> kenran: https://github.com/flora-pm/flora-server/
08:49:36 <Hecate> have fun
08:50:23 <[Leary]> kuribas: Not really. Sometimes "type" /is/ used to mean a `Type` (even in GHC error messages, unfortunately), but more broadly a type is any type-level entity, i.e. anything with a kind.
08:50:28 <kenran> Hecate: ah nice, it's a flake. I always love that, being able to get started quickly :)
08:50:42 <Hecate> kenran: I can't guarantee it works, I have no nix expertise
08:51:03 <Hecate> kenran: You want to start at Server.hs
08:52:11 <TheMatten[m]> kenran: I don't think you can reasonably avoid separate "entry points" if they simply happen in different places and are independent
08:52:11 <TheMatten[m]> But you may be able to recognize some common set of effects they use - then you could create type synonym for list of those and write interpreter that processes these at once
08:52:19 <kenran> Hecate: oh right, I remember you tweeting angrily avoid it iirc :D
08:52:24 <kenran> about*
08:52:26 <kuribas> [Leary]: right, but that doesn't correspond to the lambda cube or type theory, does it?
08:52:39 <kuribas> [Leary]: it is specific haskell terminology.
08:53:03 <TheMatten[m]> BTW, if you have questions about polysemy in general, there's official channel over at funprog.zulipchat.com
08:53:12 <Hecate> kenran: and I stopped tweeting about it because I let the experts/poor souls to deal with it :)
08:54:10 <kenran> TheMatten[m]: yeah exactly, this is what I'm doing right now, but now that I'm refactoring stuff the synonyms are quite "annoying" to deal with. But I feared that I couldn't really avoid it. It just _looks_ so convenient when using servant, as it enables you to write this natural transformation once (but also maybe losing some granularity there I guess)
08:54:51 <kenran> TheMatten[m]: cool, I didn't know that! (polysemy itself is not much of an issue anymore though. If I'd start anew I'd probably take effectful for a spin now)
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08:55:38 <kenran> Hecate: thanks for the link, that looks like it not only will probably answer my question, but rather show me how you structure an application with effects (on the module level), which I was also always wondering about :)
08:56:22 <TheMatten[m]> kenran: Yeah, you'll have to pick one from granularity and convenience, I don't think there's way around it (in any effect system)
08:56:28 <Hecate> kenran: happy to be helpful, Flora's purpose is not only to be a nice website but to also help for teaching :)
08:57:12 <kenran> if only there were more time... that code base looks so nice, I'd love to get into that
08:57:47 <kenran> is that the "new" record dot syntax that I'm seeing there? (I'm still forced to live with GHC 8.10)
08:58:13 <TheMatten[m]> kenran: (There're some developments under way in Polysemy that will simplify higher-order interface and make it more powerful, maybe you can give it one more try later on 😉)
08:58:46 <[Leary]> kuribas: The confusion extends beyond Haskell, neither use of "type" is specific to us. I'm pretty sure lambda cube calculi (such as System F_omega, which Haskell roughly corresponds to) can bind "higher kinded" types.
08:58:58 <kenran> TheMatten[m]: oh, I didn't want to sound "annoyed" at it. What I meant was that I'd like to try something else to get a good overview. We're using it in production for nearly 2 years now and that won't change
08:59:11 <kenran> and we're generally happy with it :)
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09:02:00 <TheMatten[m]> kenran: Haha, no problem, sounds good
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09:02:24 <kuribas> [Leary]: I see, thanks
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09:03:11 <TheMatten[m]> kenran: That's great to hear
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09:10:32 <Hecate> kenran: if you want I can onboard you to the codebase, I'm free for a call
09:12:32 <kenran> Hecate: I'd love to, but I'm at work right now and that would be straining my leeway a bit too much ^^"
09:13:49 <Hecate> kenran: hehe, no worries :)
09:14:02 <Hecate> kenran: don't hesitate to ask questions about the codebase though, always happy to answer!
09:18:47 <kenran> Hecate: cool! I've just forked it to try some stuff out when I have time, but I immediately ran into a (nix) error. Could you tell me what horizon-platform is? Their gitlab at https://gitlab.homotopic.tech/ seems to be down
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09:24:02 <Hecate> kenran: Horizon is https://horizon-haskell.net/
09:24:45 <Hecate> kenran: Dan Firth is reachable at the links present at the bottom of the page, don't hesitate to reach him out
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09:28:41 <kenran> Hecate: thanks, it's doing something now!
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09:39:23 <carbolymer> I have -Werror in ghc-options in cabal.project and -Wwarn in cabal.project.local - so -Wwarn should take precedence, right?
09:40:07 <geekosaur> I would expect it to, but I'd probably use -v3 to verify
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09:42:57 <carbolymer> -Wall -Wcompat -Wincomplete-record-updates -Wincomplete-uni-patterns -Wpartial-fields -Wredundant-constraints -Wunused-packages -hide-all-packages -fob
09:42:57 <carbolymer> ject-code -freverse-errors -Wwarn -Werror
09:43:10 <geekosaur> uh
09:43:12 <carbolymer> they're both there and -Werror is last
09:43:35 <carbolymer> so I guess it wins
09:44:19 <carbolymer> how can I disable it? ghc docs say that -Wwarn should work, but I guess not in this case...
09:44:30 <geekosaur> I'd toss that one at #hackage tbh
09:45:18 <carbolymer> I'll try there, thanks
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09:49:49 <ncf> kuribas: assuming * : □, you can derive (* → *) : □ and thus (* → *) → * : □
09:49:59 <ncf> see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_cube#Formal_definition
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10:05:37 <kuribas> ncf: thanks
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10:35:23 <ncf> just spent way too long rifling through my bookmarks to find this amazing website https://crypto.stanford.edu/~blynn/lambda/pts.html
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11:01:10 <jackdk> Strange question, but maybe one of you reads similar posts to me. I'm trying to find a blog post about forgotten tools from software engineering research. I remember it talking about rather clever tools (most written in java) that have bitrotted and how much of a shame that it was. One was a tool that did a sort of search starting from the data types you had, looking for the data types you wanted, and they had research showing that it worked well.
11:01:44 <jackdk> Does this ring a bell for anyone? I feel like it would have been written by someone like Sandy Maguire or Hillel Wayne, but I can't find it on their websites, and my search-fu is failing me.
11:03:30 <Hecate> I do recall Vanessa asking about forgotten Haskell tools
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11:04:27 <Hecate> jackdk: was it published before covid?
11:04:50 <jackdk> 2019 feels right, but it's a low-confidence feeling
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16:12:57 <vglfr> Hey guys, how do I make trifecta's Unlined work? `parseString integer mempty "1 \n"` wants `Parser a` while `Unlined integer` produces `Unlined Parser a` so I'm assuming it needs to be flipped somehow to `Parser Unlined a`? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/parsers-0.12.10/docs/Text-Parser-Token.html#t:Unlined
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16:22:22 <ncf> vglfr: parseString (runUnlined integer) mempty "1 \n" ?
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16:23:56 <ncf> Success 1
16:26:31 <vglfr> ncf: works, many thanks!
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17:22:48 <integral> jackdk: https://www.pathsensitive.com/2021/03/developer-tools-can-be-magic-instead.html ?
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18:18:12 <sm> g'day all
18:18:55 <Hecate> hey hey
18:19:29 <mon_aaraj> hello fungis and fungirls
18:19:39 <mon_aaraj> and funnbs
18:19:43 <Hecate> mon_aaraj: ouh, nice intro :)
18:19:58 <sm> In addition to the pleasantries, I have a boring question about setEnv.. I think it sets the variable in your program's process environment, so it will be visible to all subsequently evaluated IO code until program ends ?
18:19:58 <sm> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.18.0.0/docs/System-Environment.html#v:setEnv
18:20:32 sm was looking for a transient locally-scoped withEnvironment
18:20:36 <Hecate> sm: can you reproduce this on the playground?
18:20:49 <Hecate> hmm, are you looking for a Reader monad? :P
18:21:33 <sm> no I need to set an environment variable before running an external program (LESS=R, for less)
18:21:53 <ncf> you can invoke less with an extended environment
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18:23:09 <sm> oh I could use less's command line flags, true. Except I'm not (shouldn't be) running less directly, but rather user's $PAGER
18:23:50 <ncf> then you probably also want to respect the user's LESS?
18:24:17 <sm> via https://hackage.haskell.org/package/pager-0.1.1.0/docs/System-Pager.html#v:printOrPage
18:24:32 <sm> yes, except that I want to override R for displaying some built-in help (either forcing it off or on, I'm not sure yet)
18:24:44 <sm> context: https://github.com/simonmichael/hledger/issues/2015
18:25:58 <sm> or perhaps I need to give up on the idea of using ANSI at all in paged output, as I'll never get it robust ?
18:26:24 <geekosaur> most programs just check if the output is a terminal and disable ANSI sequences if not
18:26:41 <geekosaur> because indeed there's no way to do it robustly
18:26:46 <sm> yes I'm doing that
18:26:57 <sm> this is definitely a terminal, but with unknown pager setup
18:27:31 <geekosaur> outputting to a pager is definitely not outputting to a terminal
18:27:39 <sm> it's a pity, because paged long output with bold headings is really better when it works
18:27:40 <geekosaur> and I've found -R to be buggy
18:27:54 <geekosaur> breaks with line wrapping for example
18:28:55 <sm> perhaps it must be configurable via program-specific env var then. Without tripping over the already complicated NO_COLOR/--color semantics..
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18:34:11 <ph88> is it possile to see the generated code by deriving somewhere ?
18:34:44 <geekosaur> -ddump-deriv
18:34:50 <ph88> thanks :)
18:35:47 <geekosaur> with cabal or stack you then have to search for a file foo.dump-deriv
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18:47:37 <tomsmeding> sm: locally scoped environment variables is not a thing, but how are you starting the pager process? System.Process has a field for the child environment in CreateProcess
18:50:29 <sm> thanks tomsmeding. Currently that's out of my control, done by the pager library.
18:50:42 <sm> I think I need to meditate more on "when to attempt ANSI"
18:50:44 <tomsmeding> that's unfortunate :p
18:53:29 <sm> detecting on a per-call basis whether output is larger than window and a pager is about to be used seems.. not the way to go
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18:55:29 <Inst> hmmm
18:55:37 <Inst> for rose stream, I'm still trying to think of the uses
18:55:51 <Inst> data RoseStream a = RS a [RoseStream a]
18:56:08 <Inst> what about a multi-cored CPU?
18:56:21 <Inst> could traverse into it
18:56:49 <tomsmeding> isn't that just a rose tree
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18:59:11 <Inst> yeah, it is ;_;
18:59:32 <Inst> since termination is implied by RS a []
18:59:37 <Inst> a `RS` []
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19:17:31 <monochrom> sm: Sometimes, you write your program to take a command line option or UI option for users to specify "force colouring" and "force no colouring", like ls's --colour and --no-colour.
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19:22:53 <sm> I have that, hledger --help --colour=no works in fact.
19:23:30 <monochrom> I have written a graph DFS algorithm that outputs a rose tree (it's Data.Tree's Tree) but it's lazy (at least I think so, haven't tested how lazy it is), so that until you demand a child node, the DFS is suspended right after the parent vertex.
19:23:47 <sm> but I'm leaning towards no ANSI ever by default, and an opt-in HLEDGER_COLOR var to turn it on. Alas
19:24:33 <monochrom> Does --colour=NONONOPLEASEGODNO also work? >:)
19:24:50 <tomsmeding> if you pass that you deserve colour
19:24:55 <monochrom> hahaha
19:25:02 <sm> you get colour :)
19:25:07 <tomsmeding> in any case it's a colourful argument
19:25:19 <monochrom> BTW where is Haskell Weekly News?
19:25:26 <sm> I'll tighten that up
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19:26:36 <monochrom> I reckon that my input contains 4 NO's so quadruple negation means "true" anyway. :D
19:27:49 <Guest42> Hi everyone, I am interested in participating summer of haskell 2023. I want to contact the project mentor Aaron Allen for discussion. Can you tell me his username here or maybe email. I am actually new to libera chat platform also. so its bit confusing.
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19:58:41 <sm> when will when be in Prelude
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20:55:23 <sm> I decided to add R to $LESS and $MORE at program startup, this ensures at least less and less in more mode will show ANSI
20:56:09 <monochrom> Ah, that helps too.
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21:15:41 <hpc> but not at most more in less mode?
21:16:53 ski glances around warily
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21:51:11 <sm> heh. You remind me of most, I wonder if most mimics more or less.
21:51:22 juri_ glances at ski hungrilly.
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22:15:37 ski grills a shish kabob for juri_
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22:59:48 <juri_> all veggies, please. :)
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23:02:03 <tusko> tomsmeding, I was trying to use lambdabot in private chat but had some trouble. I don't know all the operators >, @, : etc but I chatted with lambdabot for a while and figured just a little bit out
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23:04:53 <geekosaur> https://github.com/geekosaur/lambdabot/blob/command-doc/doc/commands.md
23:05:27 <tusko> -/\_ many blessings kind stranger
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23:14:28 <ski> nw, juri_, how about some plantain, batate, tamarillo, taro, salak ?
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23:33:41 <tusko> tu comes batata?
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All times are in UTC on 2023-04-06.